Archbishop: I'm Archbishop Allen Vigneron of the Archdiocese of Detroit and this is the Eyes on Jesus podcast. Mike: Hello, and welcome to the Eyes on Jesus podcast with Archbishop Allen Vigneron. I'm your host, Mike Chamberland, Mary: And I am your host Mary Wilkerson. Mike: We are excited to release new episodes once a month, so please make sure to subscribe and review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. Archbishop, welcome, and thanks so much for joining us once again. Archbishop: It's great to be back. Thank you. I'm glad you both show up every month. That's really wonderful. Mary: Listen. It was a little cold driving in this morning. I'm not going to lie. Mike: Yes, indeed. Thank you for showing up as well, Archbishop, it's always great to sit with you and chat and have a good conversation. So how was your last month? How have you been? Archbishop: It's been a good month. You know, it continues to be strange. We're coming up to a point that — we were just calculating this at supper the other night. It's going to be a whole year, pretty soon, that we've been really intensively dealing with the virus. But I think we have found many graces in it and that's what has occurred to me in this past month. Plus I got my first shot, so. Mary: I saw that, but you haven't got the second yet. 'Cause I heard the second can be a little bit of a journey. So it's interesting that you said that, I think Mike was just going to share, we had a meeting prior to this podcast and we were talking about that same thing that it's — Lent almost signifies, to me, like, a year since we've been in the reality of a pandemic and there's been so many crosses, but also God has made himself so known in so many different ways, you know? Archbishop: Yes, indeed. Mike: Archbishop, how did you do with that first dose? Did you, you feel okay? Archbishop: It was fine. It was just like any other shot. Mike: Good! Good. I had a buddy who got his first shot and he felt like it hit him pretty hard, even the first one. So I'm glad to hear you did all right with it. Mary: Yeah. It's neat to kind of take a moment of reflection, I think, about this this year, moving into Lent and the hope that's on the horizon and the hope that's been present the whole time. And I've said this before on the podcast, but you've done such a good job reminding us of the movements of the Spirit and of God and this time ordained by him to show us who he is and how much he loves. And I think taking a moment to reflect is good. So we get to talk today about an important topic, an awesome topic, something that's so near and dear to the heart of the Church and all of humanity, really, which is the dignity of life. So starting this conversation, I want to ask a simple question that might have a complex answer. What does the Church mean when it refers to the inherent dignity of all people? Archbishop: I suppose we simply begin from the revelation itself that we are made in God's image and likeness. This is right at the very beginning of the sacred scripture. That we have a capacity to do many of the things that God himself can do. We can know, and we can will. We're free. And so each human being has this profound dignity. And we know by faith, even more wondrously, we have the call to participate in God's own life. You don't have to have faith to know that every human being has dignity. That's something that is available to any thoughtful person. To look at human beings and to see that we're not a means. Think that's one more way to talk about human dignity. Nobody is expendable. Nobody is to be used for one's own purposes, but each person has an end, a goal, that has an integrity for itself. I know it's a little philosophical, but I think there — it's about freedom. And we have the dignity of being free because we have the dignity of recognizing what's truly good. We're not beasts controlled by by our appetite. Mary: I think of that scripture in Genesis, right in the beginning that says that, you know, we're created in the image and likeness of God. That each person bears the image of God. It's quite a profound thing when you take some time to meditate on that, that the very breath of God is in each of us, right? Archbishop: Yes. And we need to treat one another that way and recognize that about one another. We're not simply — you know, I think one of the profound ways our Holy Father gets at this is when he talks about the throwaway culture. That in a throwaway culture, people can be treated like baggies or paper towels. You know, you use them and you dispose of them. And nobody should be like that. Mary: And when you look at people, I think, too, in the image and likeness of God, it shifts the way that you treat the people around you. I know I've done different exercises before where, you know, the people that are, that just drive us nuts sometimes, or the groups of people that we struggle with, that, when we consider the fact that they are made in the image and likeness of God, it can shift the way we respond to them in love. Like, it's such a key part of loving those around us is understanding how tied to God's image they are. Archbishop: Right and, and our faith gives us so much a richer perspective, so that when you understand that this other person who perhaps annoys me and — no reason to deny that he or she annoys me — but that God loves this person. And I should — I'm invited to join with God and loving this person. And there's every good chance that, God willing, this is going to be the person who lives in the house next to me in the eternal mansion. Mary: Right. It can shift uncharitable thoughts right away when you take that moment to really reflect on that. Archbishop: And another perspective that it deeply enriches, what we could know by nature, is that Jesus died for this person. This person, everybody I meet, Jesus judged that this — if this were the only person in the world, he would have been willing to die for this person. Mike: Hmm. I know a number of years ago that kind of became an internal prayer when I was speaking or dealing with anyone that's kind of frustrating or annoying, and it's just a simple line, like, "Lord, help me to see them as you see them, help me to love them as you love them." And that definitely helps. Just that prayer and the dependency on God to see that dignity in the person, even when they don't really per se act or show that kind of dignity. You know what I mean? And we all deal with that all the time, right? So, Archbishop, I wanted to ask you a follow up question to that, what are some of the issues that fall under the Church's teaching on human dignity? I know there's a number of them. I was wondering if you could kind of just list some of them and make us aware. Archbishop: Well, the most preeminent one in our culture today is abortion, which is where, like, the most innocent among us are treated as part of the throwaway culture. But it's not the only one. Racism is certainly a terrible offense against the dignity of the human person. The way we treat people who are immigrants, strangers among us whether they come with or without documents. The death penalty is a particularly — particular point for us to try and understand the dignity of the human person. St John Paul, Pope Francis pointed out that while, in a very abstract way, there is a legitimacy for capital punishment, in our time, in this place, where we need to protect the dignity of the human person, we have to avoid capital punishment. Euthanasia is a terrible of insulting the dignity of a human person, treating somebody like a means, somebody, as if she or he is an obstacle getting in the way of our flourishing and not to be treasured. Even poverty can be an issue that, if we don't deal with poverty and try to help people advance out of their poverty, that's a problem not recognizing their dignity. Archbishop: And we need to protect the environment in order to respect the dignity of one another, because earth, as Pope Francis says, earth is our common home. And I shouldn't mess up the house for you if I respect you. Mike: So I guess, what does the church mean when it says it's pro-life regarding any of these issues? Archbishop: Well that the Church respects the human dignity and understands that life is a gift from God and not a commodity to be used either by my own self or to be abused by others. My life is not — it has a purpose and an end in itself. I don't exist for the sake of helping somebody else achieve their goals and purposes. Now we can work together to achieve goals and purposes, but nobody can be just an instrument, just a means. But today, of course, given the laws, the regime in the United States we — being opposed to the legalization of abortion is the preeminent matter for trying to maintain the dignity of the human person. Mary: You know, it's interesting that you referenced the Holy Father talking about the throwaway culture, and then the list that you just gave of, you know, racism and issues of immigration, the death penalty, euthanasia, poverty, environmental crisis. This seems to be all the issues right now, as a country, as a nation, maybe even globally, that we're really struggling with right? These are the headlines every single week are these issues that are laid before us. And I wonder if perhaps part of the reason this is such a point of tension, these issues, is that we have become in so many ways, a throwaway culture and kind of disconnected from our identity as people of God. Do you see that as a tension? Do you think this has always been the struggle? Do you think it's unique to today? How do you think it's tied to kind of the cultural moment that we're at? Archbishop: Well, I think it's always been the problem with sin and virtue is to change the the center of one's life. Every sin is an act by which I make myself the center of my universe. I think in each culture, each civilization, it takes on a different guise, a different incarnation. As I look at our culture we are very much about a consumerist culture, producing a lot of goods that seem to satisfy our human needs. And we, put a very high priority on the latest this, the latest that, the most convenient thing, the handy-dandy grill that eliminates fat. Yeah. I mean, we — this is very much — it's just part of the atmosphere of our thinking about goods that relieve us from inconvenience. And we don't like — we're very impatient with being inconvenienced. We find it difficult to stop, to pause, to enjoy and, and simply to bask in the moment. And I think that kind of attitude makes it all the easier to treat people like instruments, to treat them as if God put them in the world in order to make my life more pleasant. Mike: You know, so many people today, like Mary was saying there's obviously some areas, many areas of agreement where the Church promotes the human dignity on some of these issues, you know, especially like environmental things and racism, others. And in other areas, people will say they have a right to things such as abortion or euthanasia, you know? And we shouldn't infringe upon those rights. How should we, as Catholics respond to those assertations? So, you know, what are the best things that were the best things that we can practically do as Catholics to assist in this area of indignity? Archbishop: Well, we can do two things. Can't we make we can make our case and stand up and say what's the truth. And we can also give an example where we treat people with respect and show their dignity, treat them with dignity. And that's got its own power, the power of witness, the beauty of that. I think we have to do both of those things, make our case and give our witness. And the case, part of the case is we're going to have — we have to help people think better about what it means, what it means to say somebody's got a right. If you have a right, you have a duty. Rights and duties go together. Isn't that probably something that parents work really hard at treating teaching their children? And if you have a right to, as a human being, to be free, you have a duty to exercise that right virtuously. And there's no virtue in treating somebody like like a baggie or a paper towel. Mary: With so many of these issues, they just, I don't know, they can all seem overwhelming, right? The amount of woundedness or areas that we, as Catholics, are called to —our faith, calls us to speak into them. Do you have any suggestions of how we discern where God wants us to use our voice? So when I look at, again, the list that you just named, you know, racism, immigration, death penalty, euthanasia, poverty, it just, some times can seem so overwhelming. So the power of prayer and the power of our witness is important, but how do we determine where God wants us to kind of act or, you know, in a specific way address different things? Archbishop: Before I answer that, can I say something that occurred to me as you were talking about the sense of being overwhelmed? You know, we become part of, some people call it a movement, a reality, the Church that began with, in Jerusalem with, I don't know, maybe how many there were in the upper room that day, they weren't very many. And they were gathered around Our Lady and the 12, and Jesus had told them, "Go out and make disciples of the whole world." And you could almost imagine them saying, "Are you talking to us? This is the Roman empire. We're just this little group." So we have to embrace that. It's the parable of the leaven, the parable of the mustard seed. How do we discern? Saint Thomas says that while we have an obligation we're called to universal charity. The obligation exists in concentric circles. And we have the first obligation to those who are closest to us in community, in that circle. So what do you need to do, husband and wife, to encourage one another to respect human dignity? What's going on in your neighborhood? You can't do everything obviously. And in fact, if you tried to do everything, that would be really to mistake what God wants. He already sent the Messiah. Like, you're not the Messiah. Oh, I hope that's not disappointing. Mary: I have to tell him that all the time. Archbishop: So what's right now? What's close at hand what's going on in my country. What can I reasonably hope to accomplish? When I pray, what do I feel particularly called to respond to? Always recognizing that somebody else is going to be called a bit differently and to let those other people have space for what they're called to do, but nobody can deny the importance. So if say someone is very, very dedicated to protecting the right of parents to educate their children according to their dignity, that doesn't give anybody a bye or say they can ignore something like abortion, because abortion does have a preeminent importance. Nobody can be neutral about that. But prayer is very important. And discernment. Look around and see what's close to hand. What might the Holy Spirit asked me to be doing? Not everybody can do — I just saw this on our website — not everybody can do everything, but everybody can do something. Mary: Right. Hmm. That's really helpful to think. I well, I'll just say, I sometimes get overwhelmed by the brokenness in the world and where God wants me to be present in that. And to even unite to the cloud of witnesses, to, like you said, the apostles in the upper room and the emotion of feeling like, oh, there's so much, but the confidence that the Holy Spirit will give us the ability and the direction, so that's going to be a good little prayer moment for me, I think. Archbishop: And not to over-complicate it, but, you know, St Ignatius Loyola distills some long-standing wisdom of the saints that for people who are committed to a life of virtue and holiness, discipleship, the devil doesn't usually give very gross temptations to the worst kinds of sin. He attacks us where we're strong. He discourages us, "Oh, you can't change this or that so just don't bother." And so the good we might do, we don't take up because we can't do everything. Right. Yeah. He's very smart, the Evil One. Mary: I'm telling you that St. Michael prayer. Whew. Thank goodness for it. You've mentioned a couple of times the word preeminent and ahead of the 2020 election and in a letter from the Archbishop to President Biden during his inauguration, the US Bishops affirmed that of these issues, abortion is the preeminent issue. This caused a little bit of a stir in some corners with people, understandably, quick to highlight all these other issues that we've talked about — worthy issues to protect human dignity. And so sometimes I think we have a hard time understanding what that word preeminent means and what that calls us to. Does it mean the other things aren't as important? How would you explain that in a way that can be easily understood and maybe the least bit controversial? Archbishop: Well, I don't know if I can get the non-controversial part. [Laughs] But it has to do — first of all, preeminent in the sense that you can never do a bad thing to accomplish a good thing. It's just not possible. If you do something bad to try and do something good, you make it bad. And abortion is always bad. There, there is never a reason that turns this into something good in itself. I think that's part of what we understand. And I think it's preeminent because it touches the most foundational element of human dignity, the protection of innocent life. And here, we're talking about the most innocent and the most defenseless of human lives. And that helps that contributes to the preeminence. It also inserts in what we might call a sanctuary, a sacred space where human dignity ought to flourish within the family. Archbishop: And especially in the privileged relationship between a mother and a father and their child, it introduces a terrible disruption, a terrible virus into something that should be the most inoculated against, this virus of abuse and the throw away culture. So I think, it it's an attack on the sanctuary of the family and it enshrines in our legal system, this virus that has no place in the system. And once it's unleashed, it will, and it is already corrupting other elements of the legal system, which needs to be based on the natural moral law of protecting the rights of human beings and serving the cause of justice. Yeah. Mary: Would it be fair to say that, too, understanding the necessity of protecting innocent life helps us to understand other areas of human dignity? Like, if we can't get it right in life in its most innocent form, some of these issues that people find more complicated become even further difficult to understand. Archbishop: I think you're right. That's what — I hope my analogy about a virus is helpful here. You let this virus go and it's not just going to stop on this issue of abortion. It's going to have a corrosive effect on so many other areas of life. It already is corrosive in the relationship between doctors and their patients. Patients can, if this gets into the —once this is in the medical system, then doctors are given — there's sort of a message given that their job is not to protect human life and human health, but to make things more convenient. Mary: Right. That makes sense. And within our — I like that you pointed out too, within our legal system — kind of imagining it as a virus and something that affects all other things if we allow for and codify the right to end an innocent life. It shifts our ability to effectively and morally and ethically operate as a country. Right? Archbishop: Right. Because then the legal system is seen as simply an instrument of power to be structured in such a way as it makes things convenient for the majority or for whoever has the power. Mike: You know, sticking with the abortion issue just for a moment, I know last month, obviously in January, we had the March for Life and like so many other events this year, it was a virtual. Did you happen to see any of the — or participate in a virtual way this this year Archbishop? Archbishop: My participation was pretty limited, Mike. My recollection is seeing some elements about young people continuing to do what they could to give their witness to life. And I think the witness teenagers and young adults is really very, very powerful. Mike: Hmm. I know whenever I've gone in the past, it's always been hugely powerful just to see that many people, you really feel not alone. It's a bummer, obviously with the virus, to have to do it in a virtual way. I didn't really see much of it myself. Did you see anything Mary? Mary: I didn't, but I have really fond memories of being present and — I should say not fond, powerful memories of being present. We we've taken our kids to the March for Life before. And I had this little picture that I always in the month of January put on my social media profiles of my son, Joseph, holding a sign and he's just, this cute little boy, this three-year-old with a sign that says, you know, "human dignity for all humans." And it, I think when children are present or we have these discussions with our kids to make sure that they understand that life has dignity just as is it can be a really important and powerful thing. But this year did feel a little different to me, but all things feel a little different with the virtual reality of things. So I can't, I can't think of anything specific that I engaged in this year. Beyond prayer, and we did pray in our family, and I know a lot of churches offer different prayer as well and rosaries and things like that. Archbishop: As unfortunate as we find this fact that we couldn't be together, I'll put my spiritual director hat on, we need to see the grace in that. God is behind the movement to protect human life. And if he permitted us to have to do this virtually this year he can bring good out of that if we entrusted to him. Mary: I love that you always remind us of that. Anytime I start to cross too closely to despair about how things have changed, you remind us that God is a movin', even in the way that things have shifted. Archbishop: If I could talk a little bit about pro-life experience and being together to witness, I think I've told you before, one of the most powerful experiences I've ever had was being on the Walk for Life on the west coast in San Francisco. The first year, especially that we did that we just startled the populace. They didn't believe there were such people in the Bay Area in California. I think that was really very, very important. Mary: Right. And to be with people too, I think, that — yeah, it's a good reminder of how important this is to so many of us. And that's also a sign of hope. Like we, haven't given up in the struggle to make sure that innocent life is protected because sometimes it can seem like a losing battle, I think, especially in our legal system, but there's many of us that want to be able to be sure that human dignity is protected in its most innocent form. If I can say too, because our reality has shifted with the March for Life this year. What are other things that we can do for the pro-life issue for pro-life causes? What can we do as individuals and maybe what can and does the Church do? 'Cause I know Michigan does a bunch of different things. What are things that you have seen that are really effective? Archbishop: Well, I think grassroots organizations being engaged is very important. And prayer and fasting, obviously, very significant. I think like-minded people getting together and discerning what they might be able to do as a small group and where they could put their energy. I think it's very important to try and make the pro-life cause a bipartisan reality. Both parties, we need to have politicians in both parties who are pro-life, that's very important to protect the integrity of the movement Mike: Archbishop, regarding this topic of the dignity of human life in general, is there anything else that you feel you'd like to add? Archbishop: Simply that this is God's cause, and we need to pursue it in God's way, which is a way of peace and a way of confidence. And that Jesus is risen from the dead and to borrow the anthem from the Civil Rights movement we shall overcome. God will overcome. Yeah. Mary: So each month we get an opportunity, Archbishop Vigneron, to ask you questions from the faithful. We ask the faithful that if they have any questions, they can send them in to eyesonjesuspodcast@aod.org. If you'd like your question answered, please go ahead and email us with your name and your parish, and of course your question. So our first question Archbishop Vigneron is from Pam, from Our Lady of Good Counsel. She asks, "The Gospel tells us 'Jesus said, 'it is finished,' just before he died on the cross. What does this mean?" Archbishop: This is a most powerful question because it leads us to see that nothing Jesus says is simple. Jesus is a true man and he speaks true words, many of them ordinary. But as ordinary, they're always supercharged with extraordinary meaning because it's God talking in this human voice. So, "It is finished" is a most powerful expression. It's interesting this comes from a parishioner at Our Lady of Good Counsel where they prominently display another last word, "I thirst." So it's finished. The simple meaning is "I'm dying. It's done." But the more profound meaning is what began with in Genesis 3:15, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, your seed and her seed," what God began the very hour after the fall has now been brought to consummation. Everything that God intended with Abraham, Moses, the prophets, it has all been brought to its consummation here in my self-oblation. So it's finished and in some sense it's started. Archbishop: And this is a complement to the other saying, "I thirst," because Jesus now thirsts after he has finished the work of redemption — atonement, I should say. Now he thirsts for people to come and accept that atonement and to come to him as disciples. As he says in another place, "When I am lifted up from the world, I will draw all things to myself." So this whole new — it's not really, to say a new chapter is to say too little. It's a new beginning of creation. The world has started over. The old creation is finished and the new creation has begun. Mary: What a fantastic reflection as we enter into the Lenten season and really contemplate the bigger picture of what we're remembering and praying with during this season. And particularly during Holy Week and on Good Friday that — from Genesis that completion of that enmity being erased by God, right? Like that he has spoken. Archbishop: Right. The war has been won. Now, there's some battles still to be fought, but the war is finished. Yeah. Mike: I like that you reminded us too, that every, everything that Christ says is so loaded, you know? It's obviously got that human dimension, but that divine dimension to it. And man, what a question to start us off? Huh? So here's, here's here's question number two. Mary: It's good for Lent, though! Archbishop: Well, you know, it, it just to tie it into our effort to cooperate with our Holy Father, about the Sunday of the Word of God, this is one of the reasons that you can never exhaust one's reflection on the sacred scripture. Because it means, it says, but what it says is so much more than what it says. Mike: Well Mary Beth, so for question two here, Mary Beth from OLGC as well. She says, "Thank you for all you've been doing for the Archdiocese of Detroit. I grew up attending communal penance services as well as going to private confession, and it was always a good experience and reflections for healing. Why did the Catholic Church stop the practice of gathering as a parish family for communal penance?" Archbishop: Well, we haven't stopped it. What we have stopped is concluding the communal penance service with general absolution. That was not appropriate for the circumstances here in this archdiocese. But communal penance services are still a very legitimate experience in the life of the Church. Now, perhaps some priests have cut back on them in order to provide more time for individual confession, but they both have a great validity and are moments of grace, the penance service that concludes with the opportunity for particular confession. You can have a penance service without an opportunity for reconciliation, or the individual confession without a penance service. They're all valid ways to be touched by the Lord's gift of healing. Mike: You know, it's funny Archbishop growing up where I did on the east coast, I never had experienced any communal penance services ever. It was the first time I experienced it was when I moved here to Detroit. And I experienced the type that were valid that you mentioned where you, you pray together, you have common readings and then you are contrite together. And then everyone goes individually to separate priests around the church for confession. And I got to say, I've found it really powerful to do a communal version of that. And you know, every week we come to Mass and we acknowledge our sinfulness that we're sinners, but there was a special palpableness there at that moment, 'cause it's kind of like, no, we're sinners and actually we're going to go do something about it and go to confession right now in this moment as a community of people it was really cool. I thought that was really awesome. Archbishop: I wonder if that's not some of the same dynamic that operates in Alcoholics Anonymous, where there's a realization that we need one another to stay on the path together, and I'm not in this alone, that God gives all of us to each of us in order to move forward. Mary: Well, our final question today comes from Vickie at Corpus Christi Parish in Detroit. "What is one of your favorite non-theological books and why?" I think we've asked you this before, but we'll see if you have a new answer. Because you asked us to ask a couple of times, cause you have so many good books that you've read. So what's your favorite non-theological books? Archbishop: Well, I don't know if I've said this before, but it's William Makepeace Thackery's Vanity Fair, which makes me laugh out loud. It's a tremendous satire about human foibles. And the auxiliary bishops here in Detroit know of my love of it so much that they gave me a first edition one time for Christmas. Mary: Ah, isn't that special? That's awesome. Mike: Well Archbishop, I wanted to ask before we conclude today, did you have any special prayer intentions that we might be able to pray for you for? Archbishop: I think — this is the year of St. Joseph. I know many, many of the listeners are making the Novena to St. Joseph, the consecration. I would ask when people are praying to St. Joseph asking his intercession, if they'd put in a word for me that St. Joseph obtained from God the Father the graces I need to be a good spiritual father in the archdiocese. Mike: We'll definitely do that. Absolutely. And Archbishop if you wouldn't mind, would you mind closing us with a prayer and a blessing? Archbishop: No, happy to do that. Lord God, we give you praise and thanks for all of your many good gifts. We thank you for the graces you send that when we first taste them don't always seem like graces, but we know they come from your hand and they're an opportunity to serve you. Help us always to be your devoted sons and daughters and to realize that our first purpose in life is to give you glory and to receive your love and return it with generosity. And may Almighty God bless you, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Mike: Amen. Thanks so much, Archbishop. Archbishop: You're very welcome. Speaker 4: Stay tuned for the next episode of Eyes on Jesus, a new episode every month. And if you enjoyed listening, you might also like Detroit Stories, a new podcast from the archdiocese of Detroit, find it on your favorite podcast app.