Title: Episode 18: Divine Mercy Archbishop: I’m Archbishop Allen Vigneron of the Archdiocese of Detroit, and this is the Eyes on Jesus podcast. Mike: Hello. Welcome to the Eyes on Jesus podcast with Archbishop Allen Vigneron. I’m your host Mike Chamberland. Mary: And I’m your host Mary Wilkerson. Mike: And we’re excited to release new episodes once a month, so please make sure to subscribe and review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. Archbishop, welcome, and thank you again for joining us. Archbishop: Great to be with you both, thank you. I hope you both had a blessed celebration of Easter. Mike: Yeah. Mary: Sure did. It was nice to be in person at church. It’s one of those things you won’t take for granted again, right? Mike: It was. And beautiful weather we’ve been having lately, too, which was really nice, so. Archbishop I know with Holy Week and Easter itself you’ve had a busy month. How was your past month? How’s everything been going for you? Archbishop: Well, certainly very well, I think. Continue to move forward. I mean, you hit the highlight of my month, which was the celebration of Holy Week and Easter. I was deeply moved, particularly, walking into the cathedral at the Chrism Mass on Holy Thursday morning. Just so grateful we could all be back together — we’ve been through such an awful year — and to see all the brother priests, and in seeing them, to think about all of the sacrifices they’ve made, and the ways they had worked so zealously to serve the people of God over this year of the pandemic. So, many, many blessings, and not least, being able really to celebrate the Triduum with people in the cathedral — Mike: Yes. Mary: Praise the Lord. Archbishop: Instead of the ten. Also, it’s a great — these are great days as we move forward on Families of Parishes. We really are launching out and sometimes it’s scary when I think about it, but I know we’re doing it under the impulse of the Holy Spirit. I imagine what it must’ve been like when the apostles had to get out of the upper room. So, we’re leaving the upper room again, and I give God praise and thanks for that. This is an important month for all of that. Mary: You know I just think of springtime, right? And there’s such a renewal with Families of Parishes, and, like you said, the Triduum, and having everybody together again, and the Chrism Mass is already a liturgy that I cannot get through without sobbing when all the priests come together and it just — you see this — it brings to mind the sacrifice — Archbishop: [laughs] Mary, I’m not sure — explain why we make you cry! [laughs] Mary: No, because it’s so beautiful! I can actually picture myself— Archbishop: Oh, beauty, okay. Mary: Yes, beauty. Sometimes we get stuck in the yuck of the Church — listen, I’m going to explain it — sometimes we get stuck in some of the tough parts of being Catholic. And when you see all of these men who have committed their lives to service in this beautiful way come down the aisle, I sob every time. Every time. Mike, we’ve talked — you can get emotional, too, when you see that. When they all come in, and you know so many of these — like I’ve been blessed to know so many good priests in the archdiocese and looking at their faces, it just makes me feel gratitude. It’s tears of gratitude for the priesthood. And it was so nice to see that it happened in person this year. Archbishop: Mary, I knew where you were going to go, but I couldn’t help teasing you a little. Mary: It was a fair, it was a fair joke. [laughs] Mike: Remember, Mary has very high highs and low lows. She’s very extreme in her emotional spectrum. Mary: True, and those liturgies kill me every year. I just, I cannot get through them without very much connecting the emotions the Lord has given me to what we are seeing through the movements of the Triduum and the Chrism Mass included. So, yeah. It’s good stuff. Archbishop: You know, it might be just interesting to say here, those tears are a great grace. The spiritual authors talk about that kind of gift. Obviously we need to use our minds to be in communion, make our act of faith, but our emotions are a very important way for us to be connected to the Lord. Mary: Oh, absolutely. Well, I feel them. The Lord has given me that gift pretty profoundly. [laughs] Mike: That’s funny. Archbishop: Mike, I interrupted you, I’m sorry. Mike: Oh, no, I was just going to say, I think as I get older I notice — I find a deeper resonance of beauty each year with Holy Week. I don’t know why, it just strikes me each year. It gets more beautiful as I age and I’m finding it more and more compelling. And it’s also — I was going to say — just such a beautiful difference. I know last year around this time we were asking you how you enjoy saying Mass to an empty church, and so it’s beautiful that we’re finally in a different space this year, you know? Mary: Thank God. Thank God. Archbishop: Thank God. Mike: Amen. You know, Archbishop, I know earlier this month, you know, everyone 16 years and older became eligible for the COVID vaccine. I know that social media — there was a post that you received your vaccine back in February. How did you feel about that? Were you excited, relieved, nervous? What did you think? Archbishop: I wasn’t nervous. I was very relieved, I felt that now I would have this very helpful protection. I have confidence in our medical authorities. And I was very grateful to the folks at Ascension Health who set up the clinic that I got invited to — where I got invited to get my vaccine. And the people were just so kind. I mean, it was a huge number of people to be cared for and the nurses and the other professional staff — there were physicians, of course, supervising — everybody was so happy, so cheerful, so helpful. Made me proud of our Catholic healthcare. Mary: Very cool. So, this month we have an opportunity to discuss Divine Mercy, a devotion to Jesus associated with the apparitions of Jesus to St. Faustina Kowalska. Can you give a quick overview of who St. Faustina was, and what she saw and heard in her apparitions, and maybe how that led to Divine Mercy? Archbishop: Well, I think — she was a woman who lived from the beginning — I’m not sure, maybe even at the very end of the nineteenth century, but — I think so — but I know she died around 1938, so she didn’t live through the Second World War, into the Second World War. She was — came from very humble background in Poland. Her father was a carpenter. She joined the sisters and while there, she had these mystical experiences of Our Lord revealing himself to her with this title of his Divine Mercy, and asking her to be an apostle of this devotion, because the world needs the healing of the mercy of his loving heart. And the devotion, like all of these things — I don’t know if you think about it, there’s a tremendous similarity to the spread of this devotion, to the spread of the devotion of the Sacred Heart, to the spread of the devotion of the Most Blessed Sacrament in Corpus Christi — very often led by mystics, people of deep prayer, I think in all three cases, I’m pretty sure even for Corpus Christi, but obviously for the Sacred Heart, a woman, a charismatic woman with a mission in the Church. And like the other parallels, resistance at first, misunderstanding, but eventually it all comes right, and particularly through the work of Cardinal, then Cardinal Karol Wojtlya, the devotion became recognized in the Church and has spread ever since. And he was in some sense the second apostle. He made a team with St. Faustina to spread this devotion. Mike: I believe John Paul II, he actually passed away on Divine Mercy Sunday, is that right, Archbishop? Archbishop: Yeah, it is, Mike. He died after vespers — first vespers on Saturday evening, but by liturgical calendar, that’s already the beginning of Divine Mercy Sunday. And so, he, yes, he died on Divine Mercy Sunday. First Vespers. Mary: Well I like, too, that you were talking about how this devotion has kind of come into being. And I always think about how, like, development of doctrine, different things that we know to be true, God’s always deepening our understanding of his goodness, and using his people to do that. And the devotion of Divine Mercy seems so needed right at this point in history. You know, the fact that it was in the year 2000 that this became official, and then look at these last, you know, 20 years. It’s been a need for the Church and I think maybe the Spirit knew that, right? Archbishop: Oh, I think we are being guided by God’s Providence. He brings forth things old and new, and we pay attention to those that God raises up. This is the truth about the Marian apparitions as well. These are interventions by God in his Providence to put a light on the path ahead of us. And they are all really about the Gospel. Private devotions are never a replacement for the Gospel, they’re windows, perspectives about ways to focus on the revelation that is the public possession of the Church. Mike: You know, Archbishop, I know — what would you say as far as the term “Divine Mercy”? How is that distinct or different from just regular mercy, you know? I know — is there a specialness to that term? Could you kind of speak to that a little bit? Archbishop: I think in the use of the term, we are reminded that the mercy actually comes from God himself. And that emphasizes how — what a condescension it is. How generous God is to be merciful to us sinners. That it’s a pure grace, we have no merit of our own to have the mercy. I think that’s what’s emphasized by speaking of the Divine Mercy. It’s another way of saying “God’s mercy.” And here in our shrine in the archdiocese, they’ve asked if I would agree to let them specify “Jesus the Divine Mercy,” identify the very person of Jesus as the Father’s mercy, and I think that’s quite accurate, because the mercy of God the Father is in the very flesh and blood, the very person, the incarnate person of his Son. There is no other mercy for us outside of Christ. Mary: Outside of Jesus. When I think of Divine Mercy I always think of that image, right? The image that — was it St. Faustina that had it commissioned? Is that how that picture came about? Archbishop: I believe she did, and she had this inspiration from her prayer. This was something she understood that the Lord himself wanted and how he wanted it basically to look. I read recently that when she saw the artist’s depiction it made her cry. It wasn’t as beautiful as she thought it ought to be, or what she had seen about Jesus. But most significant, of course, are the white and red light that come from the heart, which I take — I mean, I think it’s commonly understood that this references the blood and the water that came from the side of Christ as he slept on the cross. And it’s another connection for me, particularly, between Jesus and his Sacred Heart and Jesus the Divine Mercy, because the mercy of Christ comes from the very heart of Christ. Mary: The priest at the — I was at Mass on Sunday and the priest focused his homily on Divine Mercy Sunday and he said the same thing, that, yeah, the image, she was frustrated that it couldn’t capture the beauty that she kind of had pictured. And the other thing that he shared that I thought was kind of — I just think things like this are kind of important to remember — that, you know, she wasn’t necessarily, St. Faustina was not necessarily the smartest, the best at writing, like, he said that some of her writing, you know, has grammatical errors, and God used that. Like, he uses the gifts that we can bring to him to present his message to us, even if sometimes we think of them as a little flawed, or not exactly what we wanted, he can use that for such good or, you know, for this international message of love. Which is really beautiful, I think, to think about. Archbishop: Well, this is very typical of the whole history of the Church. I’ve, you know, talked to all of us on the podcast before about my own particular affection for Our Lady of Lourdes. I mean, St. Bernadette couldn’t read and write French. St. Therese, certainly well-educated as a child of the bourgeois, but she was no significant personage. God chooses the — Our Lady herself! God chooses the little ones to confound the wise, as St. Paul says. And the importance of that is to — it shows that this is about the goodness of God and not the cleverness of men and women. Mary: Yeah. So good. So we are encouraged, as Catholics, obviously to participate in Divine Mercy and the Divine Mercy devotion, and the Church kind of made it a universal moment for all of us. So what are some ways that you think are effective ways to increase our devotion to the Divine Mercy, you know, as families or as people who really love Jesus to focus on the Divine Mercy of God in this devotion? Archbishop: I think the chaplet is a very helpful prayer for many, many people. I think an image of Jesus the Divine Mercy is a very fine holy picture to have in the home. I read recently that St. Faustina said, “Important is not only to speak about Divine Mercy and pray for God’s Divine Mercy, but to do the works of mercy.” I’ve been thinking a lot about this. That, you know, we talk about being good neighbors and doing — acting in solidarity, building up our community, but I think it’s important for us to recognize that when we do these things as disciples these are works of mercy. I like us to return to that nomenclature of the corporal works of mercy and the spiritual works of mercy. I’m very pleased that Catholic Charities of Southeast Michigan, our own charities organization in the archdiocese, has adopted this approach and speaks ordinarily of “engaged in works of mercy.” And, you know, you ask about family, Mary. I think I learned a lesson from some of the scholars at Notre Dame, that doing it together as a family is the best way to inculcate these habits. To pray together Divine Mercy and to have that prayer flow over together into works of mercy. As a family, for example, to work at the soup kitchen. To be engaged in the neighborhood cleanup, if that’s what people are doing. But to always accompany that with prayer, so it’s not just do-goodism, but it’s a witness to Jesus. Mary: I love that you just said that as a reminder, because I was just thinking, obviously whenever we have these discussions I refer to my own life, and, you know, we pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet with my kids — we sing it, which is my favorite, when my children’s little voices sing it — and we do works of mercy, but I don’t know that I’ve ever bridged the connection for my kids. That this is like a flow. And the picture makes it quite easy to do that, you know? That this is an overflow of Jesus’s mercy, that we get to participate in it through the acts of mercy. It’s something small with language, but I think those types of things make a significant difference for our children and our families to be able to see how everything’s interconnected, right? These aren’t two separate things, it all flows together. Archbishop: Yeah, it’d be great once you know what the works of mercy are, let’s say helping at the soup kitchen, just to say the prayer for the sake of the sorrowful passion, “Have mercy on us and on the whole world.” Just to say the prayer as you begin the work. Mary: Yeah, and something simple. I always try to think of how to take our faith and really apply it in practical ways for our family so it just becomes part of what we do. And that’s a real simple bridge to make, I think, in our families. So thank you for that piece. Mike: Yeah, I always think — personally, too — I know this year I really reflected with it and I went to the Divine Mercy hour, my wife and I went to the parish at 3:00 on Sunday and they had a holy hour and we prayed the chaplet and stuff, and in reflection on it, I know for me, I think I saw it, like the three dimensions, in a new way. Personally, like, I know the dimension of God’s Divine Mercy, which we typically ask for. Like, we want God’s mercy shown to us. And then also the idea just his mercy that we, like you said, Mary, there’s that one mercy, if you will, and we participate in that mercy, so when we’re merciful we’re actually participating in God’s own mercy and expressing it. But then also that third dimension, which is — you know, I just think we get into that thing where we just, like, pray for God’s mercy for us, like as kind of a consumer mindset, without thinking about, “How am I not just receiving the mercy, but then pouring it away and giving it away to others as well, through concrete actions and stuff as well?” You know what I mean? So the prayers, of course, are great, but then also the actionable item. So it’s kind of got those three main points, I guess. It’s almost like a triad that’s — you know, and it hast to go all together. If it’s not together then it’s a little bit more flat and it’s missing something, you know? Archbishop: And Mike, just to underscore something you said, you know, that when we do works of mercy it’s God’s mercy. We really need to be clear on the realism of that. When you do a work of charity, a work of divine love, that is as qualitatively worthy in the sight of the Father as if Jesus in his own very person had done that. That’s what we mean by merit in the life of the Catholic Church. That what we do in the mystical body, when the Father looks at it, he recognizes that this is the work of his own son. Mike: That’s awesome. Mary: Yeah, that’s pretty profound. And I keep thinking of that image, right? And the blood and the grace, the red and the white, flowing forward. And the invitation to participation in that is — it’s pretty profound. So along those lines, Archbishop — and this might seem obvious to some — but a lot of the ways that we celebrate Divine Mercy Sunday, obviously, is that people are encouraged to go to confession and to receive the Eucharist. How are those things tied to this message of Divine Mercy, to the image of Divine Mercy? Archbishop: Well, these are the most powerful ways that the Lord Jesus pours out his mercy into the life of his mystical body. And I think that they receive a new impetus, a new call, and this is a devotion that comes from the 1930s. We’ve had the sacraments of penance and Eucharist much before that, obviously, so it’s not a new reality, but it’s a new emphasis, a new perspective to think about these gifts of Divine Mercy. And especially the sacrament of penance, because in the sacrament of penance, we have the most explicit way that Jesus is merciful to us sinners. I mean, the Holy Eucharist is a great mercy, it comes from the side of Christ, it’s the water represents baptism, the blood represents the Holy Eucharist. It comes — these sacraments come from the side of Jesus and make the Church to be. So the Eucharist is where we taste God’s mercy. So I think these two sacraments are given a new luminosity by our developing, being participants in the Divine Mercy devotion. Mike: You know, Archbishop, I know some of us — there’s so many devotions out there, and some of them really speak to us and resonate with us, and others maybe not as much for whatever reason. I know like, for you, for example, Our Lady of Lourdes really resonates with you. How does Divine Mercy and Divine Mercy Sunday resonate with you, and what are some things you’ve done to sort of celebrate and participate in this devotion? Archbishop: I’m going to say something about your first comment, Mike, before I talk about my own experience. We talk about lots of devotions in the Church. That’s a really good thing, and my word of wisdom when I was in the seminary to the future priests was, “In the Catholic Church there’s something for everybody, but not everything is for everybody.” And the devotion, the patron saints, the titles that one is attracted to, people need to pay attention to that. You don’t have to do all of the devotions that the Church sanctions. They’re varied, and they meet varied temperaments in people’s diverse history, and that’s good. God wants us to — he wants Mike to be a saint like Mike. You can’t do it the way Mary does, identically. It’s got to be different, and God’s glorified that way. So, you know, my own — as I’ve attested here — Our Lady of Lourdes is a very particular way for me to be devoted to Our Lady. Now, everybody needs to have some devotion to the Mother of God, but it will be different for different people. About Divine Mercy, I really come at it personally through my own long history of devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I see it as an extension, and a way to have a fresh perspective on the heart of Christ. I grew up as a little kid, obviously, making the first Fridays, that was very important in our parish. And then when I got to the seminary, which is dedicated to the Sacred Heart, we were constantly — it was constantly held up for us, the priestly heart of Jesus. He was the — and the cornerstone of the seminary says, “I will give you shepherds after my own heart.” And so Divine Mercy, especially through meditating on the picture, is a way for me to be refreshed and renewed, get a new perspective on my devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I think the chaplet is a beautiful prayer. A part of the chaplet that really speaks to me is the trisagion hymn that ends the Holy God. I think it’s fascinating that it ends with this prayer from the Byzantine liturgy, that it is included in the liturgy of the Latin Church for Good Friday. When we get to that part of the prayer, it strikes me — it takes me to Good Friday itself, the great work of Our Lord meriting the Father’s mercy for us. I was going to say something else… Oh! You know, I think we’re blessed here in the archdiocese with the Divine Mercy Shrine out in Clinton Township, and being able to be supportive of the private association of the lay faithful who have established the shrine and advance its mission — that’s been a very important part of my pastoral ministry. Mike: Yeah. You know, Archbishop, as I understand it, this last Divine Mercy Sunday this year, that’s where you were, right? You were at the newly named Divine Mercy Center, is that right? Archbishop: The new shrine. The center has been established for a while, but they’ve developed their apostolate to such a point that then they felt they were able to petition me to be recognized as a shrine for the whole archdiocese, and we’ve studied the matter, I’ve had people look at it, some of my advisors, and so I issued a decree establishing it as a shrine. So it’s analogous to the Shrine of the — well, actually, the Shrine of the Little Flower’s a national shrine — but there’s a diocesan shrine at Ste. Anne’s, at Old St. Joe’s on Jay Street, a shrine of Our Lady of Fatima Downriver, the shrine of St. Joseph out in Pontiac, and this is another diocesan shrine. Mary: And when you say that they — was it lay people that came together with a devotion to the Divine Mercy? How did it organically kind of start. Archbishop: Yeah, it’s a lay movement. It’s a group of lay people who have felt blessed by the gift of mercy in their own lives and they wanted to share that with other people. Mike: So Archbishop, that’s wonderful that you visited the shrine on Divine Mercy Sunday. How was that visit, and what might you recommend that visitors do if they go there themselves? Archbishop: Well it was a beautiful opportunity for me. Of course, there was a certain limitation because of the COVID restrictions. The chapel had to have social distancing, and I believe actually that they had to limit attendance to people by invitation. But for me, the great blessing was to be able to be encouraging to the lay people who see themselves and understand themselves to be apostles of God’s mercy, the mercy of Jesus. And I felt like I was doing the — I was doing my job as a bishop, as a spiritual father to be supportive of the apostles, the prayer ministers, people at the shrine. People are interested, I think go online, see what’s available, what activities are going on at the shrine, I think that’d be a good way to think about visiting. And there are indulgences attached to going to the shrine, and those will also be listed on the website. Mary: I kind of love how you said that, kind of, your duty as a bishop that, thinking about just kind of how a group of men and women felt this strong devotion to Divine Mercy and then worked with that and prayed with that and then came to the archdiocese, and then you being there and just showing them anything that kind of flags or points to the connectedness of our Church. And even the hierarchy and what God’s doing on a bigger level is kind of really neat. So I’m glad that you were able to go, and I definitely will check out their website. I haven’t been there. Have you been there, Mike? Mike: No. Mary: Maybe we could take a little pilgrimage! Mike: Oh look at that! Archbishop: Well it’s way over in Macomb County, I don’t know if you’re up to that. [laughs] Mary: [laughs] I’ll pack snacks for the kids. Mike and his wife are godparents for one of our children, so it’s fun to kind of be able to do things like that occasionally. So that would be a fun thing to do on a weekend. So, yeah, cool! Is there anything else, Archbishop, that you think we as the lay faithful or anyone that’s listening could benefit from when contemplating and praying with Divine Mercy? Archbishop: I think the most important thing is to find the hook, the window, maybe, is a better word, that opens before you as you’re inclined to look at, or the door you’re inclined to pass through in order to contemplate the mystery of God’s mercy in his son Jesus. And then see what happens after you do that. What inspirations do you have? What does God — what grace does God seem to offer you? Because it’s going to be different for each and every individual person. It’s a range. It’s not going to be radically opposed, but it’s a range of inspirations. Maybe some new forms of prayer, it may be a work of mercy for somebody across the street. Mike: Mhm. Mary: Yep. Well we’ve come to the point in the podcast where we get to ask you, Archbishop Vigneron, some questions that the faithful have submitted. If you are interested in asking a question, please feel free to email eyesonjesuspodcast@aod.org. When you email us, be sure to include your name and your parish, and of course, your question. So our first question, Archbishop Vigneron, comes from Connor at Divine Child and Rita at St. Colette, so this is two people who were wondering about it. “We will occasionally see pictures of Pope Francis hearing confessions in St. Peter Square. Do you ever hear confessions from clergy and/or the laity, and do you go to another bishop for confession?” Archbishop: About my hear confessions, it’s been a while since I’ve taken my turn to sit in the confessional. So, I haven’t been doing that since — in the recent time. For my own confession, it’s interesting that the questioners would imagine that I’d need to go to a bishop for my confession; I suppose that’s the sense of the hierarchy in the Church. But as a matter of fact, I go to a priest. I have a spiritual director that I see regularly, but not as often as I go to confession. I try to go frequently, and usually am able to ask a priest to hear my confession privately. I don’t — sometimes I have gone to the Capuchins for confession, but usually I just ask a priest if he’d be able to hear my confession. Mary: That’s cool. We were at the Capuchins. I always end up seeing some priests and sometimes bishops in line there. That’s where I bring my kids, because it’s so convenient that, you know, every hour from 9 to 4 they hear confessions. Archbishop: Oh it’s a great blessing. Let me just say a word to endorse frequency of confession. When I grew up as a kid, the practice that almost all parish priests held up to regular Mass-goers was confession once a month. And I think that’s a very, very good practice for Catholics. I know it’s — we’ve gotten out of the habit of that, but the sacrament of penance is the sacrament of repentance, and we as Catholics need to live a life of constant repentance. And we do that everyday with our Act of Contrition, but the act of penance is a powerful grace to sustain us in a life of penance. I think — I hope — we can make progress to getting back to a point where that’s just ordinary for people, weekly Mass and — every Sunday Mass — and monthly confession. Mary: Let me ask you a question, kind of to put you on the spot, I love that advice about going once a month. Is there any kind of priestly advice that you give to people going to confession? I always like to ask, is there something we should be thinking about or considering when we go into the sacrament of reconciliation? Like what’s your number one piece of advice — besides going once a month, which I think is excellent advice — do you have any other advice about going to the sacrament of reconciliation? Archbishop: You mean, what the penitent ought to think about in presenting to the priest? Mary: Yeah, like, maybe even disposition, just something that would be helpful. I think reconciliation scares a lot of people, even those of us that go all the time. Sometimes I’m thinking, you know, “Am I doing this right?” [laughs] Is there a piece of advice that you have to most of us that are going to the sacrament of reconciliation? Archbishop: To make a more fruitful confession. I would say — I mean, it’s very important that one confesses one’s sins and not one’s feelings. Because feelings, as such, are not sins. They just happen to us. It’s what we do with our feelings. That said, try to see, in your examination, how the sinful acts that I perform are fruits of self love. And acts where I have failed to have confidence in the care of God for me. A simple example. So if I’ve told some lies. To not just think about and say, “I told lies. I’m a liar,” but to recognize the weakness of my trust in God that led me to protect myself by telling the lie. I think that’s a good — that’s very helpful to move us along the path of repentance and growth in holiness. Mary: That’s awesome. Thanks for answering my question in the middle of questions. I thought that’ll be helpful. Mike: Mary, you’re supposed to submit that to the questions….[laughs] Very good. I’ve got a question here, Archbishop, for you from Don at Sacred Heart in Dearborn. And his question is, “Outside of St. Peter, what pope do you think was the most influential in the history of the Catholic Church?” Archbishop: Oh, gee! The one most influential. That’s a really — I don’t know if I can say that it is, he is the most influential, but a man I would offer as worthy of that nomination would be Pope Leo the Great. Pope Leo settled a very, very important issue, a question about the one person and two natures of Jesus Christ, and in that witness of his magisterial authority, he has had a tremendous impact on everything else in the life of the Church. Mike: That’s a really good point. So what year would that have been around, Archbishop? Archbishop: I think it’s in the 400s. It was ratified at the Council of Chalcedon in 451, so I know it’s the 400s. Pope Leo sent, it’s called a letter, but it’s a long tome, actually. Kind of a theological essay, to the patriarch of Constantinople, and it was read to the fathers of Chalcedon, and the acclamation was, “Peter has spoken through Leo.” Mike: And of course that discrepancy and talk about Christ and his two natures, that kind of put to bed the Aryan heresy issue for a while, is that right? Archbishop: Well it was one further settling of it. What it really helps make clear is that God in his divine action acts through integral created reality. The humanness of Jesus is the divine person acting, so that we can say in all truth that when Jesus with his right hand touched somebody, that was God’s touch. And that’s a simple way to put it. But then we can go on to say that on the cross, God died. You know, he didn’t die in his divinity; he’s immortal. But it was — God died. And this is important even for the life of the sacraments, for the Church. That God uses created things to communicate his divine life. And in doing that, he doesn’t skew or scramble the integrity of those natural things. For example, the Holy Eucharist is always going to taste like bread and wine, but it is truly God present to us. This is — Mary talked about, I forget, Mary, what your word was about junk in the Church… Mary: Yeah, something like, sorry. The stuff, the harder, the messy. Archbishop: This is — what Pope Leo said so very clearly about the person of Jesus applies so similarly to the Church. It’s not — we can’t get into, “Well is the Church from God, or is the Church a human reality?” And the answer is yes. So that God uses the things of his creation to communicate his very self. So I think that's why I pick Leo. Because that’s really important up and down the life of the Church. Mary: Good stuff. Alright, our last question is from Katie at St. Genevieve-St. Maurice in Livonia. And Katie asks, “How do you — or how should we — respond to individuals who are trying to debate or argue about established teachings of the Catholic faith?” Archbishop: Well, I think that depends on who the interlocutors are. For every interlocutor, how should we respond? We have to go into this discussion with charity. I don’t know that the word “debate” is particularly helpful. “Respond,” I think, is better. I think going into a conversation like that always mindful, as St. John Paul said, that it’s a human interaction, and I’m going to gain something as well as I might be able to share of light when I speak about the teachings of the Church. Now, if my interlocutor, the person I’m in dialogue with, is a faithful Catholic, the discussion is going to be, “Well is this something really the Church teaches?” Because the Catholic act of faith is, “I believe all that the Church teaches as revealed, because she speaks for Christ.” So that’s — but if someone doesn’t have that kind of Catholic act of faith, well then you have to ask what are the basis that you can have the discussion on. It might be scripture, if it’s a person of a reformation community. If it’s someone who has — is not a Christian, then the argument will be, well what’s appropriate for the advancement and flourishing of human life? To help them see how the doctrine the Church — say, the doctrine of Our Lady’s assumption — is not contradictory to reason, but in fact, these are the evidences for it, and this is how it helps make sense of human life. So I don’t know if that — do you want to get me to be more precise? Or is that helpful do you think? Mary: You know, I think your distinction right in the beginning was really helpful to me. I think sometimes when — the Catholic worldview, right, is coming to a point now where, you’ll notice that the secular worldview seems quite different. So I’ll get in conversations with people, and even fellow Catholics, about Church teachings, and I sometimes can get lost and it becomes a debate, right? It becomes a kind of issue, versus the core of the discussion in having a fruitful discussion with another believer or non-believer that can teach me something. Like, there’s a disposition, I think, that’s really helpful going into it. Is there any, like, specific tips you would give? Like, apologetic tools that we can use in trying to explain our faith in real, practical ways to people when they have questions? Archbishop: Well, I think there are a lot of good websites that offer apologetic helps. One I know is Catholic Answers, but I don’t — I wouldn’t say that — I just know there are lots. I think you can find a lot on the web. You need to be careful to be sure they’re solid. Do either of you know any that you would recommend? Mike: You know, personally I find that I like Word on Fire, Bishop Barron’s world is very helpful. Archbishop: Yeah! Yeah, you’re right! Mike: I think he’s got some great stuff out there that’s really helpful. Archbishop: I agree with you. Mary: I like when Mike listens to Word on Fire and then tells me about it. So Mike filters it for me, and then I get — no but like, things like that. And I always, for me, it’s very helpful to go right back to the Catechism to, like, root myself in what is true, you know? When we’re having some of these difficult discussions. You know, some of the discussions about how to practically apply Church teaching in our culture are difficult, you know? And so making sure that we’re rooted in what the Church teaches from her core, like the actual teaching, before we go out and try to discuss it. Archbishop: And for people who aren’t Catholic, non-Catholic Christians, I know, a very important point of discussion is the relationship between our doctrine and the evidence for them in sacred scripture. Mary: It’s always surprising when you’re in relationship with — you know, I’ll meet moms and things like that that are of non-Catholic Christian traditions, and they’re always surprised when we do get into those discussions that everything in our Church is deeply connected to scripture. That’s illuminating to people. They don’t actually — many people don’t know that. So that’s a good reminder, too. Mike: Very good. Well, Archbishop, thank you so much again for joining us, and before we close I wanted to ask if there was anything specific that we could keep in mind for you as far as prayer intentions that are on your heart, that we can pray on your behalf and for you. Is there anything that us listeners can pray for you for? Archbishop: Well as I said earlier in the conversation, Mike, we are beginning very intensive steps of moving us to launching the first wave of Families of Parishes, so I would ask for everybody to pray for those Families and for the priest leaders who will be responsible for taking us across the Red Sea into the new land. So that would be very good. Mike: Okay. Very good, we’ll definitely keep that in mind, Archbishop. And, hey, would you mind closing us with your blessing? Archbishop: I’d be happy to do that. Lord God, we have begun this day confident in your power, in your Divine Mercy, we give you glory. And may Almighty God bless you, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Mary: Amen. Mike: Amen. Thanks so much, Archbishop. Mary: iStay tuned for the next episode of Eyes on Jesus, a new episode every month. And, if you enjoyed listening, you might also like Detroit Stories, a new podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit. Find it on your favorite podcast app.