Archbishop Vigneron: I'm Archbishop Allen Vigneron of the archdiocese of Detroit. And this is the eyes on Jesus podcast. Mike Chamberland: Hello, and welcome to the eyes on Jesus podcast with Archbishop Allen Vigneron. I'm your host, Mike Chamberland. Mary Wilkerson: And I'm your host Mary Wilkerson. Mike Chamberland: We are so excited to release new episodes once a month. So please make sure to subscribe and review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. Archbishop. Welcome. And thank you so much again for joining us. How are you today? Archbishop Vigneron: I'm doing great. Thank you. Uh, moving here into autumn, right where we're in the very center of it right now, Mike Chamberland: We sure are we sure. And the season of your birthday, I know you celebrated your birthday this past month. How was that for you? Archbishop Vigneron: It was a great celebration. I'm always so grateful for the people who write with their good wishes and who promised me their prayers. Mike Chamberland: Oh, that's very nice. You get, do you get quite a bit of fan mail there, Archbishop? Archbishop Vigneron: I don't know how to compare it with anything else. Uh, but people are very kind. Yeah, Mike Chamberland: That's nice. I know another big event that happened this last month, uh, was that you had the convocation. I know that's a, um, semi-annual event where the, all the arch arch diocesan priests gather, usually kind of somewhere up north, uh, in Michigan. It sounds like, uh, how, did this last year, how did this year go? You know, I think it was the first time having a convocation since COVID, um, was it a great experience? How did things go Archbishop? Archbishop Vigneron: It went very well. Mike, as you said, a great experience. It, uh, don't think we're quite back to normal yet, but it certainly, uh, helped us feel like we were, uh, moving through the aftermath of COVID and it was a really a blessed time for us. Uh, our, uh, speaker, the person who gave us our conferences was a father, Bishop Flores who used to be our auxiliary right now in Brownsville. He was of course, excellent, really, um, profound reflections on the priesthood and the challenge of the priesthood today. So many ways blessed. Mike Chamberland: That's great. I know, even just speaking to a few priests, uh, here at work, where I, where I'm at at my parish, um, and some other friends of mine, uh, I just asked them how the convocation went and they all had very positive things to say, and they all very much said that, um, Bishop Flores did a wonderful job and really presented some great, great reflections. So I know it seemed like from their end, they felt like it was a really positive experience, which is great. Mary Wilkerson: I was going to say the same thing. It's, interesting whenever, uh, the convocation happens and the priests come back from it, it really does seem to be just such a necessary time of fraternity and learning together with people that share this experience. Right? Because I'm sure there's a bit of isolation in terms of the ministry that, um, priests and deacons are doing. And so to have a moment just to be together, right, is that a big fruit of it? Just the community of being with one another. Archbishop Vigneron: It is indeed a common experience, of mutual support, uh, the fraternity of it, uh, Bishop [inaudible], uh, was the preacher for the masses we celebrated daily and that was a real, a constant theme in his preaching was how, uh, we're partners in mission that the Lord sends us out two by two, for a reason, uh, for the mutual support, we can give one another and the mutual challenge we can offer one another, Mary Wilkerson: What a cool experience to be able to get together. I love that, um, you know, the holy spirit makes way for that special time for the priests and deacons in our diocese. Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah. So the priests, uh, met mostly about, uh, uh, a week day, through that week. And then the weekend, uh, as we left the deacons and their wives arrived for their convocation. And that was for them a great blessing. I was able to be part of that as well. Mary Wilkerson: And my dad is a deacon and so him and my mom always looked forward to going there. And again, it's the community, it's the learning together. It's, awesome. I'm so glad that you guys all had that opportunity this month to be able to share with one another. And then we heard that last month, you also visited the Vatican as part of your role as the vice president of the United States conference of Catholic bishops. How was that? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, it was, uh, a great, uh, blessing. Really the high point of course, was the audience, the holy father, Pope Francis gave us. And we got to, talk to him about our priorities as bishops in the United States. And he offered us words of encouragement and guidance. So that was really a blessing. Mary Wilkerson: And were you there with you were there with other bishops from the United States? Archbishop Vigneron: Only one other, uh, it's the, we use the Italian word, the presidencia the, uh, presidency, uh, Archbishop Gomez, the president, the Archbishop of Los Angeles, myself as vice president and the priest who assists us as the general secretary. So Mary Wilkerson: Just you three in the audience with him, with the holy father? Archbishop Vigneron: Yes. Mary Wilkerson: Wow. That's awesome. Archbishop Vigneron: Um, it really was, it is. And then we had the chance to be, uh, with a number of the other leaders of the various Vatican departments to talk about our kinds of cooperation, uh, things that they have as priorities, our priorities, how we can, uh, work in communion, really. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. So what a busy month for you, that's a lot in one month to gather with all your priests and then to go and, you know, meet with the holy father. Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah, it was actually I think the other way around, but it has been busy. Mary Wilkerson: You bet. I bet. Well, very cool. And I'm, I know, you know this, but be assured of our prayers as you, both your roles of leadership, both within the U S CCB and with our archdiocese. I know that the spirit is using you and I'm sure sometimes it's a little overwhelming, but we're praying for you. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, uh, I take great consolation in a prayer that Cardinal Newman wrote that even the holy spirit can even use our confusion and our stumbling. So I give God even my, my limitations. I think that's, uh, that's the real, uh, good news about salvation in Christ is that, uh, even our failures can serve him. If we abandon ourselves to the father, along with him, Mary Wilkerson: The spirit of surrender, that's fantastic. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I mean, everybody's got everybody has to deal with coming up short and failing. And, uh, I think to, to have hope in the midst of that and even, uh, through it is great, good news. That's what I preach. Mary Wilkerson: So in recent weeks, the universal church has embarked on a global synodal process called a synodal church, communion participation and mission by God's Providence. This global synod is kicking off right at the fifth anniversary of our own synod, synod 16, which many of us will remember. To mark this occasion today, we wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about our own kind of synod identity here in the archdiocese of Detroit. Before we really get into it though. I think it's worth it to take a second and talk about the basics, because I think even if we've heard of synod 16 and now this kind of synodal church, I think some of us are still a bit confused on what a synod is. So could you start by talking to us a little bit about what is a synod? What is its purpose, kind of a background on that Archbishop Vigneron: Happy to, uh, always ready to play the, uh, the professor. Mary Wilkerson: Yes, the role of the teacher. Archbishop Vigneron: Um, well, it's a great word for, for an assembly or a meeting, but there's, uh, something very interesting in the etymology of it. Uh, on the road together, it has very dynamic meaning that yes, it's an assembly, but it's an assembly about moving forward together. And so the emphasis is not just coming together, but listening to one another in order to walk alongside of one another on the path that we discern. Um, I thought a lot about, uh, the very nature of a synod as I was trying to give leadership and direction for synod 16. I think one of the most important points to make is that a synod is a grace reality. It's a new covenant reality. Uh, there's a tendency perhaps for us, especially with our, uh, democratic, Republican background in where we live in a democratic Republic to think about a synod as something like a legislature, maybe even something like the school board and the members of the synod is delegates, but, uh, that's not really, uh, it's something like that, but it's really quite different as well. Archbishop Vigneron: Uh, the, those who come to the synod are participants. They're not representatives, uh, by God's Providence they've been selected principally to hear the holy spirit that is the first and fundamental task of, of a synod participant, to listen to the holy spirit, which means to be under the word of God. I remember I was in the ninth grade when the, the Great Synod, uh, Vatican ecumenical council number two began. And, uh, I was very impressed that every day the synod began by enthroning the word of God, right at the center of the synod hall, indicating clearly that yes, there were a board of Cardinals who helped direct things, but really presiding over everything is the word of God. And so to participate in a synod is it's essential for those who are participants to have formation in the word of God, what we're now calling an evangelizing catechesis, not just to know the doctrine of the church, but to recommit to it in order to be able to hear what the holy spirit is saying. And that always involves repentance. I don't think anybody can participate in a synodal church without, uh, being, uh, engaged in ongoing, uh, repentance and recommitment to Christ. I think that's very, very important. Mike Chamberland: That's so interesting Archbishop. And I know, you know, so that's a great background on, synod in that sense. So, I mean, and specifically speaking about the archdiocese of Detroit a little bit, can you share with us just a little bit of the history of the AOD and like, you know, synod 16 and, you know, the resulting movement of unleash the gospel and, you know, kind of what you were saying there about the word being at the center, how did that play its part within the experience of synod 16 here? Uh, locally? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, we called the synod. We, we gathered in the synod precisely in response to a word that we have already heard from, from, uh, the church, especially from St. John Paul, from Pope Benedict and, uh, from, uh, Pope Francis to be a joyful missionary church. So even convoking, the synod was a response to, the word and, uh, to prepare for the deliberations. We took very a significant amount of time for prayer. Uh, we prayed for at least a year for a new Pentecost, uh, so that we would be open to the movement of the holy spirit. What, what was he, what is he telling us about how to be a church on mission? A very significant part of preparation for the synod was formation. Come encounter Christ. And we insisted that anyone who wanted to be a participant in the synod needed to be engaged in those experiences of formation of, uh, evangelization and repentance. And so, um, the, I believe that the great fruit we've seen from the synod is a result of, uh, all of that being open to the working of the holy spirit. The result isn't the work of men and women. Uh, it's the work of God, of the holy spirit through us men and women. Mary Wilkerson: When we it's, it's funny cause I remember it was such an exciting time in the church and I was a part of the meetings right in the beginning a little bit with like Archbishop Burns. I remember gathering once in a room and I remember this idea of starting with a year of prayer for the new Pentecost and that was, I'm looking at my notes. Right. So it reminds me that that was in 2014. So when that kind of year had started that year of prayer, praying for a new Pentecost, did the archdiocese, did you have, in the back of your mind that a synod would be the fruit of this? Or did, would you say that the synod came from being really open to what the holy spirit wanted to do? You know what I mean? Which one came first? Archbishop Vigneron: The commitment to the synod. We knew we were going to have a synod when we, launched our, the diocese on the year of prayer for a new Pentecost, but we wanted to make sure that, uh, the Synod, we celebrated would indeed be authentic and for that we needed to have, uh, we needed it to be an experience of Pentecost and experience of listening and waiting. Mary Wilkerson: I think there's a real beauty and a confidence that can come from the faithful just to really understand, um, how intentional it was to pray and to ask. Cause it wasn't, you know, let's take the month of may to say some prayers to get ready for what the holy spirit might do, but really a year of praying and asking the holy spirit to be present. And I think when we look at some of the fruits of the synod, you can see how rooted it was in this kind of prayerful understanding that this is God's movement within the church. Archbishop Vigneron: Not only have we had this experience five years ago of celebrating the synod, it's changed us I think. Now it's, it's certainly launched us on the path of unleash the gospel, all the fruits that are coming from that today, particularly we think about, uh, families of parishes as a way to, uh, group our parishes together to be effective agents of the new evangelization. But I think it, it gets even more deeply into the roots of our diocese. Uh, I find when we meet together, uh, there's a greater spirit of docility to the holy spirit when I'm with councils and other gatherings. And I believe it's that case in, uh, uh, parish councils and parish finance councils. And I also think, uh, we pray more, uh, I think we've, a more ardent, less perfunctory prayer as we, uh, we gathered together to listen to the holy spirit. I think we've gotten some new habits out of all of it. Mike Chamberland: Yeah. Archbishop I know we're going to speak more about synod 16 specifically, but I did want to ask kind of just looking back again a little bit more into the history. Would you say that there's a relation between synods and like a little bit of the history of some of the previous synods that have taken place here in the archdiocese of Detroit, and their maybe relation to synod 16. Is there a relation there? Archbishop Vigneron: The synod that Cardinal Deardon led us through after the second Vatican council to, uh, implement the council's, uh, spirit and directives here in the archdiocese was a quite a different, uh, approach than synods that had, diocesan synods we had earlier was much more in, uh, a general engagement of the whole people of God, really reflecting, the constitution on the dogmatic constitution, on the church about the churches, the people of God. And I think there's a great relationship between that synod, which took place in 69 and we called synod 69, uh, and the current, synod 16, I think synod 69 helped prepare us for synod 16, synod 69 was about transforming our diocese into a local church of the people of God, everybody making a contribution, people being accustomed to participate, uh, in, moving forward the life of the church, I think synod 16 then was a way to use that experience and all of the, all that had been accomplished in those what 50 years or so to focus now on, uh, to focus outwardly and to, uh, direct those energies of participation into, uh, the work of evangelization. Archbishop Vigneron: I don't think Synod 16 could have happened the way it did if we hadn't had, uh, our years of experience of, uh, parish councils, uh, vicariate councils, uh, the archdiocesan pastoral council, the Presbyteral council, all the organs of participation that had gotten firmly established after synod 69. Yeah. Mike Chamberland: Well, it's funny too. It does seem like there's obviously this, this corollary or relation between, you know, obviously the second Vatican council, you know, an ecumenical global church council, synod69 held here locally to see how we implement second Vatican council essentially, and then synod 16, which is an extension of that. It's kinda like, okay, 50 years later, how are we doing in some ways, are we, uh, living out the second Vatican council and, you know, uh, its main precepts or, or how do we also improve upon how we're doing that as well? So it is funny. I know people, you know, claim how the church kind of moves slowly, you know, um, but you know, you have, you know, large ecumenical meeting, then more local meetings and then there's that, that slow development. Um, and, and seeing it take on flesh, if you will, at the local level, right. I mean, is that, Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it and, uh, it has over these years since the second Vatican ecumenical council, uh, been an appropriation of the councils insight that the church is the people of God hierarchically ordered, of course, but there's a universal call to holiness and a universal call to mission. Mary Wilkerson: You referenced, um, Archbishop Vigneron, the come encounter Christ worship nights that we had leading up to the synod. And you also noticed, uh, referenced this, this importance of repentance before going into something like this. And I remember there was a mass celebrated, the mass for pardon right before the synod opened and how powerful that experience was. Um, do you recall that mass, can you tell us a little bit about it? So this was right before we began, uh, the work of the synod. There was this, this mass for pardon. Archbishop Vigneron: I vividly recall it. And it really, uh, grew out of listening to the sacred scripture our Lord's, inaugural, uh, speech for moving into mission was repent and believe in the gospel, uh, something we hear, uh, Ash Wednesday every year. And so if we're going to, if we were going to, uh, live this gospel mystery of, uh, joining Jesus on mission, we had to have this very specific moment, this time of repentance, and particularly to, uh, repent of all the ways communally and individually, we have hampered, uh, the hearing, uh, and the preaching and the witness to the gospel. It that the pair have to go together repent and believe. Mary Wilkerson: And I think it started us off on a, on a, on a, a different we were in a different disposition after that massive pardon to be able to move into the synod. So it was a, a really profound moment I think. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I think it, it underscored the fact Mary that, uh, having a synod, living actually the, the verb that the church uses is celebrating synod that celebrating the synod is not our work. And if it were only our work, it would be terribly inhibited by the fact of this sinfulness we bring to it. But because we confess our weakness, our failure, God can be strong in, the synod we celebrate and transform even our weakness into, into a way to, to, uh, advance the work of his kingdom. Mike Chamberland: You know, I think it's beautiful about the synod as well. And I just remember being like Mary was saying, it was very exciting time, you know, and I remember, you know, being on some different, uh, committees myself and everything, you know, and I, and I think it's just, there's a beautiful movement there leading up to the synod, especially the thought of like, okay, let's, let's have a Synod. And that means obviously the prayerfulness and asking the holy spirit. So there's a prayerfulness there and then asking for pardon, but then also listening. I know listening sessions were a very key piece or integral piece before the synod itself. Uh, and I was blessed that, um, Bishop Burns, I was a part of, um, the team that kind of took all the data from the listening sessions. So, you know, 240 different meetings involving tens of thousands of Catholics at every local church within the archdiocese, uh, you know, had these meetings to really try to listen and discern the spirit from, within its people, um, and where the spirit is guiding us and what are we to do? What are we not to do? And, and from looking at all of that data was where kind of the, um, the main, uh, Archbishop Vigneron: The propositions we call them, Mike Chamberland: Yeah. Yeah. And Archbishop Vigneron: You did a great job. I wondered how you are going to pull that off. That was great Mike Chamberland: We had a lot of, I call I jokingly called them conclave style meetings. Cause we would have like eight hours, we just lock ourselves in a room and just go to work. And uh, yeah. Oh man, that was, it was, it was fun though. It was really, and what I remember feeling. So what was amazing about it in my, on my end, just, you know, obviously I'm just a servant to the whole thing, but you could really, really sense and feel the spirit moving and you just, you know, when you're a part of some of those committees, it was beautiful to see. And so, you know, in my opinion, I, I love the whole sense of a Synod, uh, cause it's a very large communal sense of what each of us should be doing individually. Right? You know, listening to the spirit, praying, asking for pardon, you know, all of those steps and moves, but it's a very large communal sense of that, right? Archbishop Vigneron: It is. Uh, I would say two things about it. First of all, you talked about listening. So you under the direction of, uh, Archbishop Burns at that time, uh, your group in that, in your conclave, what did you hear? But you were listening to the fruit of other people's listening, uh, what, uh, the parishes in their participation sessions, what had, what had the participants heard? What had the rank and file heard from the holy spirit? It was always, you know, this is the Marion dimension of the church to hear the word of God and ponder it in our hearts to, to always be attentive to listen. The other thing I would want to say about all of this is, uh, you know, talking about the Pope says we should be a synodal church. Now we can't be constantly celebrating a Synod in its formal sense. Archbishop Vigneron: Right. But you Mike talked about how this, uh, change, this creates a culture. There's a kind of culture of synodality, which is always about listening, always about repenting and always about, uh, working together, uh, on, mission that, I think is what the holy father has in mind for the church to, uh, imbue the church with this, culture of synodality because, uh, what the holy spirit wants to do to transform our culture into the kingdom of God, he will tell us, we need to be listening to what he will direct us to do along the way, the path he has for us. And if we don't listen, uh, with our hearts open, according to what the scripture teaches us, I mean, we have to be careful not to misinterpret our own bright ideas for the will of God, right. But if we listen attentively with repentant hearts, evangelize hearts, uh, he will show us how to accomplish what otherwise could look like an impossible task to convert the world to Christ. Mary Wilkerson: You know, it's, I have so many fond memories of the actual synod being there for me. One thing, it still makes me emotional. When I think about it is when we had all gathered at St. Aloysius to begin, and each person was invited to come forward and make an oath of fidelity to the church as we, um, began the synod. And it was a really signs and symbols, things like that just really affect me. And it was such a profound moment of in my life feeling so tied to the church and so confident in the Spirit's work within our church. Uh, so whenever I think of a synod, that's like my big memory that it makes me emotional five years later, when you think of the synod Archbishop Vigneron, were there any moments in particular where you were just aware of, um, the movement of the spirit and what he was doing in a really profound way? Archbishop Vigneron: Um, one thing that comes very much back to mind, Mary is listening to the reports of the, of the synod groups and, uh, trying to myself here and to, uh, discern what the groups, uh, were saying as they reported about the deliberations. Uh, that was for me a very powerful experience of my role, uh, and the, pastoral letter unleash the gospel is my attempt to, uh, share the fruit of what I heard, the synod say. Another, you talked about, uh, symbolic moments. One that sticks out in my mind is, uh, our being on procession from our meeting room in the hotel, uh, up Washington Boulevard to the church. And I thought this is itself a witness to our community that we're a church on the move. Mary Wilkerson: Absolutely, absolutely. You, uh, unleash the gospel. It was funny this weekend. I was, I was just meeting with a couple friends from Chicago. Uh, they lives there now. One of them was from California and she just shared every year as retreat she reads, unleash the gospel that there's so much within that document. Um, somebody that's not even in our diocese, doesn't, isn't tied to the archdiocese of Detroit at all, uh, was able to recognize this work. And I know many people from different dioceses have said that, that the fruit that came through unleash the gospel, that document and your work, and you're listening to the holy spirit, I think has made an impact on, you know, the church in the United States as well, like that God can move even bigger than maybe what I had imagined when we first started the synod. Archbishop Vigneron: And take it back to the beginning, Mary, uh, whatever fruit is in the pastoral letter is, uh, the blossoming of that year of prayer for a new Pentecost it's, everybody contributed to, the message of unleash the gospel, because everybody prayed for the new Pentecost. Mike Chamberland: So Archbishop. I know that obviously Pope Francis recently had kind of mentioned this kind of global synodality of the church. Um, in what ways do you see the AOD kind of building upon strengthening, you know, sharing our experience here to the wider church, but also participating in that kind of more global, uh, Catholic synod, if you will, how do you see that kind of playing out in future months and years? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I think, uh, two things, one we can give our own witness. We have experienced synodality and, uh, we can affirm the blessing of it, and, uh, we can offer our observations and, uh, challenges and, uh, graces that come with trying to be a church, uh, on the way together in the new evangelization. So I think we can make a contribution from our experience, and also I think, uh, what the whole church is engaged in and what we're participating in in these months can advance our own synodality. Uh, we can look at ourselves and say, um, are we being faithful to the graces we were given and synod 16? Uh, how have we been good stewards of the synodality that God has blessed us with? What more can we do? Uh, how can, what can we learn, uh, to continue this path of being, a church on mission together Mary Wilkerson: In really practical terms, have you shared our synod experience here in the archdiocese of Detroit with the church of the United States, or even at a global level, what our experience was and how it ended up working? Has there been communication with the archdiocese of Detroit, or will there be, as we move to kind of this synodal church? Archbishop Vigneron: I would say it's a part by part I don't, I haven't stood up in the assembly of the Bishop's conference and said, I want to tell you all about synodality, but I have participated in, uh, various conferences where I've been invited because of our experience. And we do get a lot of inquiries, uh, from around the United States and from other parts of the world to, uh, that ask us about, uh, about our experience. Mary Wilkerson: What is the idea with the global synod? Is it, is there going to be a gathering of people? Like there was a gathering of people in the archdiocese of Detroit? Do you know what, um, what the Vatican's thinking with that? Or is it just type of, uh, type of disposition? Archbishop Vigneron: No, I think there is going to be a Synod of bishops. Uh, I, and I've seen the timetable for it, but I have to tell you, Mary, I don't remember what it is right now. The holy father is planning to bring, uh, the synod of bishops together to, uh, deliberate, to reflect on the graces that are given us in these months. And, uh, I presume while it is bishops who are the official participants, there will be a lot of lay faithful and religious men and women who will be engaged. Mary Wilkerson: Wow. Mike Chamberland: Is there a specific kind of theme or, Archbishop Vigneron: Well, there is the, the, uh, there's a whole set of documents, uh, which we're engaged in, uh, examining and on the basis of, uh, it's called the, uh, the working document, a new document will be developed that will be the basis for the deliberations. Um, you can find it on the, website for the Vatican. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. It'd be worth looking at, I think it's interesting to think of the church doing this. Um, and this would be different than I know the holy father has called together different groups when he's putting together the document he did, um, amoris laetitia on family. There were, there were groups of people brought together for that, right. For listening sessions and understanding, but this is in an even wider kind of gathering? Archbishop Vigneron: I believe so. Mary Wilkerson: Okay. So since it's been five years since our own synod as we mark this anniversary, which seems crazy, I can't believe it's been five years in some ways. And then in some ways it's such a part of our culture and our language. That is, it seems like it's been there forever. Um, can you reflect on where you thought maybe we would be at this time? So when conversations first started about the synod, did you think that God might lead us here where we are today? Has there been surprises along the way? Archbishop Vigneron: Um, well, one of the big, uh, course changes we've had to make is, uh, I know we would be engaged in parish, uh, missionary planning, but, uh, I didn't, I had no sense when the Synod ended that, uh, we would be grouping our parishes together precisely so that, uh, by the shared strengths they bring to being in a family together, they can engage in missionary planning. Uh, now some of that came about because of, uh, historical circumstances because of, uh, the COVID crisis, the pandemic. But what I think is a blessing is that we've been able to do a course correction and, uh, take the, insight of the synod and apply it to a new set of circumstances that we were not aware of five years ago. I also, uh, the other thought that comes to my mind is, uh, we came out of the synod with a lot of action steps, and there were too many, I think it was, uh, overly ambitious. And we are engaged in, uh, an ongoing discernment about prioritizing and, uh, organically moving forward with the action steps. You know, it's like a kid at Christmas. You think you can hold so many things in your arms and you realize, uh, can only do so much. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. But I do love when you've spoken about, you know, the movement of families, of parishes and things that you still see that as is very tied to the synod, and it, right, like to that movement of the holy spirit, it's a pivot, right. That we didn't expect, but God works in unexpected ways. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, it, uh, exactly it, it has to, uh, the spirit of synod 16, the, the, commitment to be a church on mission has to be what animates our movement into families of parishes. Otherwise it's just an administrative, uh, shuffle. And that takes us back into, uh, maintenance. And we have to keep our eye fixed on mission. And that's where the energy comes from the world depends on it. You know, uh, sometimes, uh, I think it would be easy enough to get into a notion that, uh, we want to be on mission for the sake of building up the church, but yes, that's true, but building up the church is a means itself, uh, to give God glory and to bring eternal happiness to our neighbors. Uh, as I've said, very often, God wants this world back Mary Wilkerson: And we get to participate in that, which is great. Uh, this is a tough question, cause you're not necessarily a mind reader, but Archbishop Vigneron. What do you imagine could happen within the archdiocese in five years from now? So we're five years from the synod. When you picture what the archdiocese might look like five years from now, can you imagine something, is there a movement that you think the spirit is leading us towards? What would you say about that? Archbishop Vigneron: I think by that time, we should be used to living together in our parishes, uh, as families of parishes. And we will have, uh, made, uh, this kind of structural adjustments, uh, that this way of, uh, being, uh, parishes seems natural to us. And we will be able to use these new structures, uh, for the sake of mission. Think, uh, we will have, uh, appropriated this new culture and, uh, learned how to use it for, uh, for the sake of being, a band of joyful missionary disciples. I think there'll be a lot to our parishes will be much more adept, uh, uh, outreach, especially to, uh, those on the margin and to, uh, young adults who, you know, the N O N E S the nones, um, I think will be much more focused on that focused on, uh, people who aren't church goers, uh, you know, people who are, uh, claim to be Catholic, but don't participate. And the people in our parishes who make no claim to be Catholic, but who are our responsibility, to bring to Christ. I think that'll w we will continue on that path Mike Chamberland: Archbishop, just as we close this. Um, just one last question, just for the sense of like any, any listener, you know, people that are, you know, not necessarily in church work or anyone who's kind of listening, what would be your, uh, request of them living out or the message to them regarding this kind of synodality of the church in Synod living within the church, uh, just, you know, the regular pew Catholic person listening well, what do you think is the takeaway you'd hope that they hear from this Archbishop Vigneron: To, uh, appropriate and incorporate into their own Christian life, a kind of synodality , which means every day be on watch, be listening to, uh, the missionary opportunity that God's going to give to him or her there'll be something every day by which that person can extend the kingdom of Christ. And then the second thing, the listening, the second thing is to look for partners, uh, people that, uh, they can, uh, be on mission with, uh, probably the simplest one, the most basic one is husbands and wives. Uh, how can they extend the kingdom of God in their family and the neighborhood and husbands and wives? How can you do it together? I think that would be, uh, you know, we talk about the, uh, the, the domestic church, the domestic church should be a synodal church and in its own very fundamental way of being on mission and going out together. Does that make sense? Mike Chamberland: Yeah. That was beautiful. Archbishop Vigneron: Mary in your family are, are you as synodal domestic church? Mary Wilkerson: We try to be, Archbishop Vigneron, we do. Archbishop Vigneron: I don't mean to put you on the spot. Mary Wilkerson: No, I think one of the things, one of the things I really appreciated about our time together, and you just reminded me about it again, is how you have a gift I think, of always pointing to the domestic church and how these things are being lived out, right? So when you speak, I think to myself, how are we doing this? In which ways are we engaging the world? How are we listening to the spirit within our life? So we try to be, I'm not saying we're perfect at it, but I think the more people like you help to bring to mind kind of this, what we've been charged with, it helps us to kind of keep our path where it's supposed to be. That's how I would answer that good question. Archbishop Vigneron: Okay. That would be the best thing I think, uh, for, uh, the, renewal, the continued reviving, uh, vitality of the domestic churches, the families in, our diocese. Mary Wilkerson: Okay. We've reached the point in the podcast where we get to ask you Archbishop vigneron questions that the faithful have submitted. If you are listening and you would like to ask a question, please feel free to email us @eyesonjesuspodcastataod.org. Be sure to include your name, your parish. And of course your question again, that email is eyes on Jesus podcast@aod.org. Our first question comes from Thomas at our lady of victory. Thomas asks, can you explain some of the differences we see when you celebrate mass versus a parish priest, for example, the extra candle on the altar, the Pallium you wear, how the deacon brings you the book of the gospels to kiss. Related to that, What are the protocols for when you wear your mitre and hold your Crosier? Archbishop Vigneron: Okay. Mary Wilkerson: I've been, that's a lot of questions, but they're questions that I've wondered about too. So I'm excited to hear your answer. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, let me step back and, uh, offer a kind of a basis for the difference. Uh, the constitution of the church, according to the will of Christ is that, uh, the local church is governed by a Bishop who is one of the successors to the apostles. And there are in, in the diocese, there are two priestly orders. There is the Bishop who is the principle priest. And then there are the parish priests, the diocesan priests, and also religious order priests, but the presbyterate who share in the priesthood as well. And so, uh, the particular, uh, symbols that Thomas talks about are ways to, uh, differentiate the priest, the Bishop, as the principle priest, the liturgy, often calls him the high priest of his local church and, uh, the other presbyters the other priests in, uh, in the pastoral care that is shared with them. Archbishop Vigneron: We all act in unity, of course, but, uh, from the very earliest days of the church the admonition has been, uh, that no, no parish priest should celebrate the Eucharist, for example, outside of communion with the Bishop of the local church. So, uh, the symbols that Thomas is talking about the extra candle, uh, is a way to symbolize that, uh, the Bishop of the diocese is present. That's part of what that means. Uh, the Pallium is a vestigial scarf. It actually, in ancient times, it was a symbol of, uh, a learned, uh, professor might think of it as something analogous to a, an academic hood in the academy today. And, uh, they're given Pallium are given by the holy father in the Latin church, in the Western to archbishops. And it's a sign of the leadership of the Archbishop over the other bishops in his province. Archbishop Vigneron: So it's, uh, you know, we've been around for over, uh, we're getting close to a full 2000 years. And so we've got a lot of stuff in our, way of living, uh, the kiss the book. Well, again, it's a, it's a sign of, uh, uh, the role of the Bishop as the authentic teacher in, the diocese and about the mitre and in the Crosier. Uh, the Bishop wears the mitre when he presides, but not when he prays it, I take it off when I pray. So, uh, I the use the Crosier, uh, as another symbol of, uh, presidency of, of leadership in the congregation. Um, one time the liturgical books talk about a Bishop using the mitre and the crosier uh, that I don't do it is preaching. I don't preach with my mitre on, or the crosier in my hand, because when I've tried, it feels very awkward and it's a trade off. And so I feel a lot better preaching without it. So Mary Wilkerson: That makes sense. I like it. Well, now, next time I'm at mass with you, I'll have a better understanding of the things that are happening on the altar. So that's great Archbishop Vigneron: Well, number one, people don't notice is that when I do a solemn, uh, Pontifical, uh, presiding, uh, liturgy, I'm supposed to wear a Dell MADEC under my priestly chargeable as a sign that I exercise the fullness of holy orders. So I do that at ordinations at the chrism mass, uh, and at very solemn, uh, feast days, Christmas, Easter, uh, holy Thursday, mass of the Lord's supper. Mary Wilkerson: Hm. You know what I love too about your answer? And just even what you just said is I think sometimes, um, some of the symbolism is lost, so we see it happening, and we thank you all just pomp and circumstance, you know, but there's the deep meaning can really, when we understand it really enhance our understanding of what's happening on the alter and what's happening in the mystery of the priesthood and the execution of public prayer. Like it really enhances faith when we understand these symbols. And I think I would hope to see maybe in the years to come a better education with some of these things, especially when we're younger, because a lot of it, I think most of us don't know most people, my age don't know why these things are happening and they, they enhance our understanding. So that's great. Archbishop Vigneron: And, you know, they also helped me, uh, one of the most important symbols, uh, for my own identity as a Bishop is the ring. Uh, and, uh, I wear the ring I was given on the day I was ordained a Bishop and the ring is given to a Bishop very clearly as a nuptual symbol, uh, to protect the church the way a husband protects his bride. And, uh, when I put it on every morning, it's a reminder. I don't, I never think of it as a piece of jewelry, uh, as I'm sure Mary, you don't think of your wedding ring as a piece of jewelry. It's to me a reminder of who I am and what God expects me to do. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. That's so good. That incarnational peace of, you know, when, even during the day, you know, when your finger goes to it, or I spend my ring around it's those little reminders of the, the life that Aaron and I are, are building together, you know, and what we're trying to do ultimately with the two becoming one. So that's, that's neat to know that you kind of have the same experience between you and the church when you wear that ring. Archbishop Vigneron: Yes. Mike Chamberland: Beautiful Archbishop. Our second question is from John as St. Hugo of the Hills, and John asks, why do we generally hear prayers and general intercessions for vocations to the priesthood and religious life, but not so much for the diaconate? Archbishop Vigneron: I think the principle explanation for that is that the, restoration of the permanent diaconate is relatively recent in the life of the church. Mary said, 50 years, or maybe you said it Mike 50 years doesn't seem that long in our history. And I think it's partly about habit. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. All right. And our last question, it's a bit of a doozy, but it goes right along with what we were talking about today. So Steve, at our lady queen of martyrs asks this: in our February, 2020 episode, you answered Steve's question about whether you have been surprised by any of the results from synod 16. This was pre pandemic pre families of parishes. At the time you talked about being a little astounded by the faithful's widespread and enthusiastic efforts to become part of the movement to unleash the gospel. Since February of 2020, the life of church and society in general has obviously been nothing but surprises, in honor of today's topic, let's revisit the and repurposes question, looking over all the unexpected, the pandemic and its impact, our ongoing transition to families of parishes, what has surprised you most about what God has brought from this time, in what ways have we managed to stay the course and live the fruits of our Synod during such a difficult and unusual time? It's a good question for reflection. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I'll point out to Steve, it's actually two questions, but what has surprised me, uh, what I give God praise and thanks for what seems astounding is that even in the midst of this great difficulty of responding to the pandemic, uh, we haven't lost our missionary commitment and our missionary enthusiasm. Uh, as you said, Mary, we've had to pivot, uh, we've had to recalibrate, but, uh, we haven't forgotten and we've continued to be able to make the synod, uh, the guiding light by which we do all of the kinds of recalibrations. And, uh, that to me is something very much to thank God for, uh, what, however we managed to stay on course. Well, I think, uh, being very clear that, uh, the reorganization into families of parishes is, uh, ancillary to then the parish, the families, uh, picking up on, uh, missionary, strategic planning, uh, that's going to happen. I think that that's, uh, how one way to stay on course and the other, uh, thing not to be forgotten is that, uh, I believe that our commitment to, communications media prior to, uh COVID, but through the synod has positioned us very well to use media effectively in responding to the conditions that were brought on by the pandemic. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, there's a bit of a prophetic movement with that, right. That we already had such a strong communication department going into this time where digital communication became so essential. So, wow, Mike Chamberland: Archbishop, thanks again so much for joining us for this episode and everything. Before we ask for your, uh, final blessing and closing prayer. Um, I wanted to know, was there any prayer intentions that we, and all of our listeners of course can keep you in mind with, any special intentions? Archbishop Vigneron: Please, uh, pray for the bishops of the United States that, in the decisions we, are called upon to make, that we will listen and hear what the holy spirit says to us and have confidence in the direction he gives us. Mike Chamberland: Hmm, amen. That's right. Cause you have the conference of bishops meeting coming up right now in November, right? Yes. Yeah. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. We'll be praying for you. That's uh, that's uh, we will make sure to add that to our daily prayers in our family and to remind people to do the same. Archbishop Vigneron: Thank you. Mike Chamberland: Archbishop thank you once again I think, great conversation. Thanks so much for sharing everything you did about the synod. And I'm wondering if you might mind closing us with a prayer and blessing, Archbishop Vigneron: Let's all join in giving God the glory. Glory be to the father and to the son and to the holy spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. May almighty God, bless all of you, the father, the son, and the holy spirit, amen. Mary Wilkerson: Stay tuned for the next episode of eyes on Jesus, a new episode every month. And if you enjoy listening, you might also like Detroit stories, a podcast from the archdiocese of Detroit, find it on your favorite podcast app.