Archbishop Vigneron: I'm Archbishop Allen Vigneron of the Archdiocese of Detroit, and this is the Eyes on Jesus podcast. Mike: Hi, and welcome to Eyes on Jesus podcast with Archbishop Allen Vigneron. I'm your host, Mike Chamberland, Mary: And I am your host Mary Wilkerson. Mike: We are excited to release new episodes once a month, so please make sure to subscribe and review wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. Archbishop, welcome, and thanks so much for joining us. How have you been? Archbishop Vigneron: Very well, thanks. So very grateful that spring and really now summer has finally arrived and that we're getting back to normal. Mike: Mhm. Yeah. I know it was a big deal in Michigan, just just recently or by the time you listen to this podcast, for sure. They just kind of lifted more of the mandates and that's just great. It feels much better to be out and about without masks and things are opening up and starting to feel normal again, which is beautiful. Archbishop Vigneron: It is. Some of my priests, though, have been reminding all of us especially as pastors to be attentive to what some are calling COVID fatigue. That you can get back to normal activity, but it's going to take some time for people to get back to normal attitudes and normal feelings. We've been through a lot. Mike: Yeah. Mary: It's funny, my girlfriend said the same thing to me. We were talking and it just, it seems a little surreal as you're noticing different things lifting up. And like Mike said, you're going, you know, to stores and things without masks on. It's just, it's crazy to look back at what the last year and a half has been. You know, it's been quite the journey we have moved through together. Archbishop Vigneron: Indeed. And, you know, Mary when Father mentioned this analogy with you know, the stress that can even come sometimes with combat, it occurred to me that we particularly need to pray for the, to the Holy Spirit who can heal everything that's wounded in our own spirits. Mary: Sure. Well, and even some of the anxiety that we've just kind of — with even the subconscious stuff that we're not certain of, you know, I know a lot of people have said it just seems even, to some people, funny going out and talking to people. It just — it's hard to just resume to normal when, you know, psychologically and emotionally and spiritually, there's been a bit of a battle of the last few months. So yeah. Mike: Well, Archbishop, I know, speaking of COVID, obviously one of the major, I would say tolls, but also kind of shining moments for us as a Catholic Church has been our schools, you know, obviously our schools, many of them completed, or they have completed school at this point obviously going from, from March all the way through an entire Catholic school year during a pandemic. And like I said, it was a kind of a — we've talked about this before on our podcast. It was a shining moment for a lot of our Catholic schools. They really came, came right up and stepped up to the plate and they knocked it out of the park, so to speak, you know? Did you have any specific messages for students or teachers or school families, administrators? Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah. For all of them, I mean, it took a lot of generosity and a bold spirit on the parts of all those constituencies to be able to keep going and have still keep the apostil at the ministry, moving forward, particularly a give praise to God for our principals and our teachers. We know that they're very generous and they make tremendous sacrifices to be engaged in this ministry. And they went to a new level of self-offering these days. Mary: Absolutely. It was neat to see. And I know so many of them just shared reflections even on social media, what it felt like to finish the year and knowing that they had completed it, you know, that they really felt like they did a big task this year. Yeah. Awesome. The other thing that I was following now that we are in the digital age, which we're going to be talking a little bit about, it's easy to kind of get updates of some of your happenings in the month of June. And we know that you met with the US Bishops in for your June meeting. And it was neat to kind of follow along with some of those discussions online. What's your reflection from the time that you had together with your brother bishops? Archbishop Vigneron: I think these three points for sure. One — the intensity with which all of us seek to serve the people of God and advance the Church's salvation, the members' salvation. We don't all agree on every point but we do agree on that. The — I was very impressed at what a strong witness to the Holy Eucharist and Eucharistic coherence was demonstrated by the bishops at the meeting. One other point I think is really important is to ask people to think about the two causes for canonization that were endorsed going as opportune. That's really what a Bishops' Conference can do, but really a heroic priest and a heroic monk. That's what the life of the Church is about, is letting the holy spirit do these great deeds in our lives. Mary: Yeah. For listeners who might not know which, who, which two causes were kind of before your —. Archbishop Vigneron: You know, I'm sorry. I don't have the names in front of me. Mary: That's okay, that's what Google is for. [laughs] Archbishop Vigneron: One was a priest who had been taken as a prisoner of war in the Second World War and did heroic acts during his imprisonment, giving up his own food, refusing to escape because his parishioners, his "boys" needed him. And then he was put on a ship, a Japanese ship, a prison ship, which was unbeknownst to the US submarine, a torpedo. They didn't know what they were doing. And he stayed on the ship to the end, helping his men escape. Just I want to be a priest like that when I grow up. Mary: Those heroic stories, give us such courage, you know, when we consider our own life and our own walk of holiness. So that's beautiful. Archbishop Vigneron: And the other was a man his name in religion was Marinus, I think I recall his baptism name was Leonard. He was a captain in the merchant Marine, and during the Korean War, he had command of a ship that under terrible fire danger went into a harbor to rescue refugees and take them away. And there are over, I think they told us over 2 million people who are descended from those escapees that he heroically took away from the war zone and brought to safety over Christmas. Mary: That is absolutely beautiful. So you guys meet — how many days did you meet? Archbishop Vigneron: Three. Mary: Okay. And you'll meet again in October? Is that what you do? Archbishop Vigneron: No, November. Mary: November. Okay, awesome. It's good to see the good work being done. And I love that you pointed out too, just this, you know, that we're all in it together, ministering and living in 2021, it can be challenging sometimes, but the goals are —. Archbishop Vigneron: Sometimes, Mary? [laughs]. Mary: Literally every second of every day. No, but it's, it's good to remind ourselves that we're all kind of on the same team, you know, and trying to advance things in the best way and sometimes complicated realities. So. Awesome. Well, we were praying for you while you were at those meetings, so. Archbishop Vigneron: Thank you. I know I had a lot of prayers behind me. Mary: Absolutely. Well, I'm excited about our topic today because it's something that has always been a passion of mine, the digital continent and how we minister and operate within the digital continent, this wonderful land that provides its unique blessings and challenges. And we are so lucky because you just recently wrote your newest pastoral note called The Beauty of Truth: Communicating Truth and Love in the Digital Age. It's your eighth pastoral note, examining topics relevant to modern culture and society through the eyes of Unleash the Gospel, your pastoral letter that you released at Pentecost, 2017. You open the piece by sharing what you hope to accomplish in it's writing. And there you say, "I would like to offer the Church's wisdom about what it means to speak the truth in love, to seek and receive the truth and to live in loving communion with him, who is the way the truth and the life by means of virtuous communication." Can you talk a little bit about these goals and what motivated your writing of this topic now? Why did you decide to write it now? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, it seemed an appropriate moment, particularly with the ever-growing reliance that we all have on digital communications, especially in these days of COVID. I think we've become even more reliant on digital media because of the months we've been separated physically from one another. In some sense it's a perennial goal. It's always about using the good things of God's creation to advance his kingdom of grace. And that's always our challenge as disciples of Jesus by nature, God made us, you know, in his image and likeness, which — a lot of ways of parsing that, but one of the ways is that we are agents of truth. We speak the truth. God the Father himself has from all eternity been speaking his word, the Son, and we imitate God in that in so many ways. Archbishop Vigneron: And we need to avoid the vices that can come from abusing our capacity to speak and we need to find ways to do it virtuously. And I know that's a little formal, but it's sort of the very basic dimensions of what's going on. And the Church has wisdom about how to use the good things of creation. And I wanted to offer some of that because I think we're being challenged. There are a lot of ways to fall into bad habits. I mentioned some of them toward the end of the letter, but most importantly we have an opportunity to open up the truth to one another. I mean, that's what communication is about. I mean, who would — how unloving it would be to offer somebody a counterfeit? To offer them something that's false. But to give somebody the truth, that's the best thing you can give them. And it's the basis of community. You can't have a real community based on lies. Mary: I know it seems so fundamental, what you're expressing, you know, where you said — I forget the word you used earlier, but yeah. I mean, it could seem so basic, but sometimes I think when we're in times of distress, you have to go back and look at the fundamentals. And sometimes — we've just forgotten that. We've forgotten the fundamental details. And it has huge ramifications, especially with our communication technologies being what they are today. So, you know, Archbishop, I know that the letter itself was released on June 11th, the Solemnity of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus. Was there a significance? There obviously was — I'm guessing that was done purposefully. I didn't know if you mind sharing the purpose behind that and your significance behind that. Archbishop Vigneron: I see the significance behind it, Mike, as something that was phrased this way by St. John Henry Newman, heart speaks to heart. That's what we need to use the digital communications for. We need to speak from our heart to the hearts of other people. And when we do that, we participate in the very outpouring of the love of the heart of Christ. And I think we need to remember that about what goes on. And we can wound people's hearts, too, by the way we might misuse digital media. Mary: Yeah. I think —I love it that you said, "heart speaks to heart." It's such a — I found this letter to be quite prophetic because I do think there's a real challenge in making sure that we are being intentional and careful with the way that we use digital digital media, because sometimes we can separate it from that, "heart speaks to heart," you know? There's — it seems maybe far away, or it's easier to write in a cutting way. Things that you would never say to a person, you know, face to face. 'Cause you would — you're looking at a face and you don't want to wound somebody, but sometimes in the digital continent that can get a little murky. And I like that you call us to remember that. Archbishop Vigneron: There are people on the digital continent, not just computers. Mike: Yeah. Ones and zeroes. Mary: Like, human beings. And you say that later on in the letter to remember that it's people talking to people. So I like that you started out, there's an entire section of the note dedicated to discussing how the Wd of God became flesh and what that means for our faith and our responsibility to speak words of proof. This section seems to set forth a foundation for the rest of the piece, centering us on what is important. And on the example of — that we should follow in all of our communications. What other messages or lessons were you trying to convey here when you talked about the Word becoming flesh and what words mean? Archbishop Vigneron: Well that this is — I hope above all to communicate the capacity to speak, to communicate is something that is part of being in the image and likeness of God, particularly in the image and likeness of God the Son who — after whom we're to be configured in grace. So that this is something sacred, for us to express ourselves. And when we do it according to our vocation, as God's daughters and sons, we glorify the Father along with Jesus. And so that's why we need to be careful and avoid the pitfalls. And the other one that's part of my responsibility as a priest, to do the best I can, but it's to point out the healthy path, the right path, the path of light, but also to warn against the path that leads to leads to perdition, as Jesus says. Mary: You say right in the very beginning of the letter, and I underlined it because it was so simple, but yet so powerful, you said, "Words we see or hear have some consequences — psychological, emotional, or spiritual," but then you say that's the way God made us, right? Like we're made to receive words and to hear words and to have them impact us. And so of course this, this work of speaking or communicating, it's God's work and it's profound, you know? Uniting with the Son to be able to spread his love. Archbishop Vigneron: Right. It's a sacred trust, this capacity to speak, to express ourselves. And you think about sometimes even an inadvertent word, the harm that it can do, especially in close relationships, but not just there. I mean, we owe this to everybody. Mike: You know, as a good father, Archbishop, you're doing what good fathers do, which is to remind their children they're there. And they're faithful that of their calling, of their dignity, of who they are. And I think by starting with speaking about Christ as the Word and that God is himself truth and communicating truth, you're reminding us that we're meant to be partakers in that, participants in his own truth, in his own love and communication. So I just really appreciate that. I know at one point you also write that, Hearing the voice of Jesus has become increasingly difficult amid the cacophony of other voices clamoring for our attention at times. Our job as faithful Catholics is to employ discerning hearts and minds to identify and avoid problematic media that typically harm and cause — harm the cause for truth and good in the human soul. Can you kind of expand on this idea and like what, what kind of discourse were you more specifically referring to? You know, what kind of harm do you see it causing? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I think discourse that doesn't take into account the good of the other and simply wants to win an argument, that that can be very detrimental to the cause of sharing the light that comes from speech, from communication. Do I have in mind a humble service of the salvation of other people? I think that that's very important. What kind of discourse — I'd say discourse that's motivated by an unfettered anger, discourse that manipulates. So those are things to be avoided certainly. Mike: Yeah. Mary: That's a really good thing to point out. I know that as we kind of moved into the summer, it seemed there was so much division coming — you know, we were living in a pandemic and then there was kind of this racial reckoning on top of the election. And it did, for me — I went through a period of time where it was — there was confusion, you know, and confusion isn't necessarily from God, you know? And I really needed to step away from all the noise on social media, because I was finding my own mind, you know, being bogged down by, what is truth? And really a difficulty in hearing Jesus's voice, which is, I mean, it's a scary reality that sometimes happens when we're too immersed in all of the noise of social media. Right? Archbishop Vigneron: Right. And this — and I'm not saying that what needs to happen is that we cover up disagreements through our use of media, but how do we go about those disagreements? Do we have confidence in two things — one: that the power of what God has made and God's own actions are strong enough that they will eventually show themselves up? That the truth is more powerful than obfuscation. So have confidence in the disclosure of the good itself, because that's the way God made the world and have confidence in the triumph of Christ our Lord that we don't need to be desperate. I mean, things can be very, very difficult. I mean, we have been through very difficult times, but you know, in these days we're having the feast days of some martyrs — Thomas Moore, John Fisher, St. Peter, St. Paul, they were in desperate straits, but they didn't despair. They had confidence that Christ's truth would triumph. And so one of my best friends said, don't panic. I think that's really important. Mary: I feel like Mike and my husband have to say that to me all the time. It is okay. Do not panic. Archbishop Vigneron: The — Our Lord said to the great mystic Julian of Norwich, "All will be well." I mean, that was centuries ago. And in the last century he told Saint Faustina to tell everybody to say to him, "My Jesus, I trust in you." Mary: I will tell you that that's, that was one of my big prayers of the summer. I would start every morning by just repeating that, you know, and I think I've told you this before, but in this podcast, I think you've done a really good job reminding us that God is in control working for our good, you know, even when sometimes things can seem so divisive and difficult, there's our God is working towards our good at all times. Archbishop Vigneron: For those who love God, all things work unto the good. And even what looks like the most blatant triumph of Lucifer, he turns that upside down. If we put it into his hands, that's what martyrdom means. And honestly if you want to be a Christian, you have to understand that you belong to a Church that — for which martyrdom is the exemplar. It's the paradigm. We need, you know — that's what you're getting into. Jesus said it. Mary: Well, and I'm glad you're saying that before—. Mike: No pressure. [laughs] Mary: Yeah, no pressure! As we move into the next thing that I wanted to talk about is that you have laid out in this document, five different kinds of red flags or things to look at. And I think they're so good. And it ties to what you're saying, because one of the things that I kept thinking, as I read through your letter is with the amount of kind of confusion and noise that can come with the digital age, we need to be so intentional and prayerful about how we're posting, the things that we're consuming, that it really takes an effort and a discipline to be able to provide, or to be — to try to be a voice of truth in a somewhat hostile environment, which the digital age appears to be. And so you wrote these five red flags and they're so practical and they're so good. So can you tell us a little bit about the red flags and maybe which ones you felt that are real dangers for the faithful and different things that we can do to kind of maneuver around some of these red flags versus falling into them? Because I know every single one of them, I was like, oh, I've done that before. Oops, oops, oops. [laughs] Archbishop Vigneron: Well I think they are all important, and I presume at the end, you're going to tell people how to access the text itself at the website, but I'd urge people to look at that. I mean, the first one is drawn right from the tradition of Christian spiritual theology. If it contradicts the teachings of the Church, it's wrong. You just need to know that. God doesn't contradict himself. I mean, part of the — an integral part of the act of Catholic Christian faith is, I believe these and all the truths which the holy Catholic Church teaches because you, God, have revealed them and you don't lie. And so we can have confidence about that. Unsubstantiated claims or allegations. This is an easy thing to have happen in the digital age because everybody has so much power through electronic media. And so it's easy to get rumors going that that aren't substantiated. Archbishop Vigneron: And then the next thing is for somebody who sees it to pass it along and say, "Did you see?" And it just grows and, you know, the classic example used by preachers for somebody who is a gossip, the confessor says your penance is to take a pillow, open it up, throw the feathers out on top of the hill and then go pick them all back up. And where once that might've been the case in the village square or in a town square, it's the capacity for the feathers to fly is so much amplified manipulation effects. It can be a true fact and accurate fact, but put into a context that makes an argument that really is not not accurate, not true, and that needs to be attended to. And in the letter I quote something from our Holy Father, Pope Francis, who on a number of occasions has addressed this issue of our responsibility, our vocation in the digital age, and it's really about a vocation to build up. Archbishop Vigneron: Saint Paul says, "Say only the good things men need to hear." We have that obligation. Ad hominem attacks that — when it stops being about the matter to be discussed and motives are impugned to people that aren't fair, that aren't accurate, that's very destructive. And perhaps the most pressing as I look at things is our digital communications that are divisive, that don't take into account the the consequences of the argument being put forward and don't think about the responsibility to — that we are all brothers and sisters, and we have to build one another up. I mean, I think in a family, you could see that. You can say things that accurately reflect my feelings, but in the end it can be very hurtful. And each of us has a responsibility to build up the unity of the church, not to lie. Archbishop Vigneron: That's not — I'm not talking about propagating falsehood. But to to speak in such a way that there's obvious charity and an obvious taking into account the good in the other person with whom I'm engaged, you know, this is not a new challenge. It's just something drilled into my head in my philosophy studies about St. Thomas Aquinas. I mean, he had very, very significant disagreements with many thinkers, but he always presented what they had to say in the best possible light, because he had confidence in the truth, wherever the light showed itself. Mary: I liked that last part that you said that he had confidence in the truth. 'Cause I remember even when I was in college, I was — I think we were at the March for Life. And there were some people that were pretty anti-Catholic, you know, handing out their tracks on the streets. And I got so worked up about it because they were saying really awful things. And I remember somebody said to me like, you actually — you don't need to get emotionally upset about it. You know, you could want to seek truth, but when you have confidence in the truth, those things don't have to throw you off your game, you know? And I think that's really true. Even in the digital age, we can see such things. Sometimes, at least me — I'll only speak for myself — it emotionally stirs up discord in me. And there's not really a need for that if we pray through that, right? Because we have confidence in truth. We have confidence that God is in control, that love prevails over hate or over division. And that division is really the work of Satan. And if we remind ourselves of that truth, we can have — I don't know, we can almost come at the digital age in a more clear-headed way. Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah. I mean, I think — and I mention this in the pastoral note — the example of our Lord himself before Pilate with serenity, simply saying, "This is why I came into the world: to bear witness to the truth." And we do that, and by our confidence we advance the kingdom of truth because truth is another name for what is. Truth is not some detached thing in a balloon and a comic strip. The truth is what is, as it shows itself up to us, and God made the world so that things will show themselves up for what they are. That's part of their beauty, that you can look at them and recognize them and think about them and see them. Mike: You know, as you're reflecting on this truth, I mean, I'm kind of just reminded about the just, like, a true sense of humility is to understand and rest in that truth, that you're not God, of course, that God is himself truth. And to have that confidence and that kind of trust, and that really breeds, like — true humility kind of breeds a fearlessness. And when you're fearless, you don't have to resort to ad hominem attacks and the spirit of division and unsubstantiated claims. And like all of these red flags we've mentioned that like, they're kind of more diabolical, right? They're signs of something that's antichrist and antitrust, the anti-beauty and goodness. And and it's unfortunate because I think a lot of that is driven by a fearfulness. Whereas if we're humble before God, there's kind of a resting in that truth and you don't have a need to — you have confidence in that truth, like you were saying Archbishop, you know. And that brings me actually to — I'm sorry, we're you going to say something? Archbishop Vigneron: Yeah. Mike, I just think that you have touched on something that is really significant and can be used as a sort of the polestar, the compass point: fear. If you're afraid of anything but God — and we mean fear of God in the way the scripture understands it, awe — but if you have any other kind of fear out of which you're acting, you're act — that's the danger signal. Fear is useless. Our Lord said, how many times did he say, and St. John Paul repeat, be not afraid. If something — if I'm being moved by fear, that's the danger signal. Mike: Yeah, and I even just, all of what we've just been speaking about, it can sound quite negative, but speaking about the digital continent, you know, there's, there's definitely a lot of diabolical things going on there. There's a lot of unrest, there's a lot of harm, but at the same time, it is neutral in and of itself, right? This digital continent, this space that we can utilize for the good to communicate. And I know you also speak to that in your pastoral note as well. And so I wanted to kind of turn us and maybe look at the other, flip the coin, so to speak and look at the other side of how we can use media and use it with charity and truth. And with that humble fearlessness rather than fearfulness you know, why do you think that's important for us to keep in mind, Archbishop? And I know you kind of go to speak to the positive side, but you know, why is it you think we lose sight of that fact and why is it important that we keep the positive aspect in mind as well? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, first of all, it's important to keep it in mind because this is something that comes from the Creator. And we need to use all the good things of creation according to the will of God. And in fact, by doing that, we release creation from its bondage to Satan and bring it into the new creation. You know, Saint Paul says all creation groans until now. So we've got to help it get good through its birth pangs. I mean, that's a very elevated way of talking about it, but it's an important means for us mentioned in the letter — in the note, Saint Paul had the Roman road system as a neutral medium. Now people used it for a lot of purposes. Paul used it to get around and plant the Church, the press early on in the Renaissance. Archbishop Vigneron: And most recently in our life, we could look to the way that St. Maximilian used the press. I mean, it was abused by a Nazi propagandists, but Saint Maximilian used it for the glory of God. Digital media can be used for a lot of nefarious purposes, but it can also be used for, for God's glory. And I think it can be used — it seems to me, it falls into two ways to be used. There are ways to be on the platform, to be engaged in it that are actually more broadly focused. I mean, we use it here in the archdiocese with — well, this podcast is one example of that, but all the things we put on the website. And there are lots of very fine things used that way that are, you might say more broadcast. Cast out more broadly. But I think a really important way to use the digital media is one-on-one. Archbishop Vigneron: And I don't know if we've thought enough about that. When grandparents FaceTime their grandkids or I mean, you can come up with a hundred ways of people use the media to be personally engaged. But do they think about how they can, at least for part of that, give a witness to Christ? Do people, when they're online with one another, think about just pausing for a spontaneous prayer for one another? I think that that would be very helpful. What I might call the — doesn't have to be one-on-one, but you know, the sort of a personal circle. I don't know if that makes sense. I suspect you both use media more than I do, even for that kind of communication, but does that make sense as a way to be a missionary? Mary: It does. And I was actually going to ask you that question because— Archbishop Vigneron: Oh, I'm sorry. Mary: No, because I keep — my eyes keep, I have your document in front of me and my, my eyes keep drawing to that fifth red flag, this spirit of division. And I see it so much, like, it weighs so heavily on me, maybe even because of what's happened in the pandemic, our communication with one another really went to a digital type of communication and both broadly and personally. I'm somebody that uses social media a lot, Mike would tell you. And there just seems to be such division, even amongst people that are you know, like-minded and want the good of the kingdom and the person of Jesus to come forward. There's just such fighting and ugliness and attacks on people and viciousness. And so I was going to ask you, you know, if there's some concrete advice you have? Like your red flags are so good, but then like, to people like me and our listeners, right? 'Cause I'm assuming our listeners are people that have a familiarity with the digital age. Like what are some things we should be doing to be good disciples on the digital airways? You know, what are some very concrete things that we can do to kind of fight some of those red flags? Archbishop Vigneron: Well I mean, there's a virtue that is the contrary of each of these red flags, right? But maybe a spiritual practice that would be useful is just a moment of reflection before going on a platform or engaging in some connection on through digital media is a pause a moment and say, "How can I make things better? How can I be observant to the two or three people I'm going to be in contact with? What's the — why is the Holy Spirit letting me have this moment? And how can I build the other people up?" But I'd go back to the point about fear. Fear is useless, what's needed is faith. And we are in challenging times. I don't mean — the kind of confidence I'm speaking about is not a Pollyanna optimism, but Christ has won the victory. And we need to rest confident in that even as the martyrs did when by human standards things were pretty bleak. Mike: ep. Well, going back to what I — like you said earlier, Archbishop, as well, like earlier you were referencing this sentiment, which I really heard as keeping the humanity in mind, you know? The internet is not just this jumble of wires and ones and zeros, but there's actual human beings. There are souls. Archbishop Vigneron: Souls. There are souls involved. Right, Mike. Mike: Right, right. And so, you know, at times it can be, I mean, I think it really stretches us to love our enemy, you know? To, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." You know, this is a time that really stretches us in that kind of white martyrdom or to be like Christ in how we view these other souls, which may vehemently disagree with us or might be nasty or whatnot. But yeah, there's a real opportunity there to love when it's not easy to love. And that's where disciples and saints are made. Right? Archbishop Vigneron: Our Lord knew it wouldn't be easy for us. And so — talk about truth-telling — he came right out and said it, you know? "Unless you're willing to take up your cross and come after me, you can't be my disciple." Just going to — that's how it is. "If the world loved me, it would love you too." Mary: Right. Mike: Well, that's hard. I think, 'cause sometimes, you know you know, you talk about people being what they call trolls, and that's where, you know, they just go on and they leave nasty comments and in Comm boxes and whatnot. And they just — and there's a, because of their anonymity, they feel that they can get away with saying things which they probably in real life would never say to another human's face. We've kind of talked about earlier. But even if we're not making those comments, I know a tendency that I have is even in my mind, I can forget about the human being. So even though I don't jump on the Comm box and make a negative comment in my own mind and heart, I'm thinking about that person as less than human, which is a fault on my part. I'm kind of — I'm the beginning stages of a troll, if you will, without actually writing something. And so I think it's really — I love your point about keeping in mind the humanity that it's another human person on the other end, another soul on the other end of that computer or phone or whatever is huge. Archbishop Vigneron: Well, two things about that, Mike. First, about people who do the trolling you may be anonymous in this world, but you will have to — you will be presented before Christ and his judgment and an account will be given. And then, in terms of all of us forgetting about our neighbor, loving our neighbor as ourself, that's always a challenge, whether we're talking about somebody we couldn't connect with digitally or somebody we're in the lineup with at the grocery store, to grow in an attitude and awareness that this is somebody that Jesus thinks was worth dying for. That if this person who I know is a jerk, is — I mean, some people are! Mike: Yeah. [laughs] Archbishop Vigneron: We don't lie to ourselves. Some people behave that way. And we recognize it. But our Lord — if that were the only person in the world, Christ would gladly have died just for that person. That's what I try to think about. And it helps me love the other person. We can't do these things with our own force, our own strength. We have to have the spirit of Jesus. 'Cause we're talking about acting like Jesus and acting in his example and power. Mary: This is such a timely conversation for me because just a little bit of background information. As I kinda came in today and met with Mike before we started recording, I was on, you know, social media and saw some things that had me really upset, and these are just such good reminders. They're real foundational, you know? To remember that these are souls, these are humans to take a moment of reflection. Are we making the world better? Things like this to be really aware of, you know, to remember that Christ is still in control and his kingdom is there. And, and we get to discern with him where he wants our voice of truth to be. So, such a — and again, the reason I'm mentioning this is because I find this letter to be so very timely and needed, and I know it will be so helpful. Mary: I'm sure that our listeners can access it at Unleash the Gospel's — we're going to assume, right? If you, Mike, wouldn't you say, if you go to the Google and you go to Unleash the Gospel website, they would have a copy of this letter. And I know it was emailed out. I received it in my email, right? Wouldn't that be a good place to start to read this? And it's not, I say this in love and charity Archbishop Vigneron, it's not like super long. So it's, you don't have to commit to, you know, a month of reading. Archbishop Vigneron: It's six pages on my computer. Mary: So I mean, I could handle it with my house full of little ones, reading it. It's a really good letter and we really encourage anybody that's listening to this podcast to not only read it, but then to share it with people, because I think it's a prophetic document at a moment where it's needed. So to make sure to get people in the Archdiocese of Detroit reading this. Is there anything else that you want to share kind of just that was on your heart when you wrote this or anything that maybe we didn't cover in our discussion about this document? Archbishop Vigneron: Maybe just to make this point that while I tried to offer some fatherly pastoral advice, I offer the best of — some of the, you know, best advice I can — I don't want anybody to think that I've got this down myself. I need these reminders too. I'm still on the way. And you know, the tagline usually is every preacher winds up preaching to himself. You preach what you know from your own experience as needed. So we're all on this journey of growing and holding us together. Mary: Thank you for saying that. So this is our point in the podcast where we get to ask you, Archbishop Vigneron, questions that the faithful have submitted. If you are listening and you have a question, please feel free to email us eyesonjesuspodcast@aod.org. Make sure to include your name and your parish, and of course your question. So our first question comes from Chris at St. Louise de Marillac, and he says, "Why is philosophy so important slash connected to the study of theology?" Archbishop Vigneron: Mary, When I saw this question from your notes, I started to laugh at myself because I spent years in graduate school just on this topic. So I think I need to — stop me if you need to. Philosophy is a form of human achievement. It's an excellence that makes ultimate distinctions that help clarify what is meant, sometimes it's about particular things like what bravery is, what a human being is. Sometimes it goes to the very fullest extent of asking, what does it mean for a thing to even exist? It's sort of the ultimate philosophical question. And the wisdom that is attainable in that way is complementary to — it fills out the truth that Christ is, and that he brought with him when he came into the world, the revelation. And so they are mutually illuminating, these two — Saint John Paul calls them two wings to ascend to the truth. Veritatis splendor. And we need — philosophy is two particular helps to theology. One: it helps us appreciate and deepen our awareness of the mysteries of faith. For example, we use a philosophical term "consubstantial" to talk about how the Son is God and what we mean by that. That would be a very good example. And also, philosophy can set up boundaries for the explanation of the mysteries of faith. Mary: When — our seminarians in Detroit? They study both theology and philosophy, right? Archbishop Vigneron: They take the equivalent of a major. An undergraduate major in philosophy. Philosophy is for theology what biology, biochemistry is for medicine. You can be a communications major and want to go into med school, but you're going to have to have the sciences, right? So we get engineers who want to be priests, but they're going to have to have a grounding in philosophy. Mike: Archbishop, our second question comes from Mike as St. Fabian and he asks why do the Chaldeans, or the other non-Roman Catholics here in Detroit have a different bishop than yourself? Speaker 1: It's the way the — this is about the way the Church is organized. And so you and I, we belong to what technically is called the Latin Church. And each part of the Church, particular Church is identified by its rituals and customs. So we follow the — we celebrate the liturgy of the Latin Church. We follow the liturgical year of the Latin Church. We have a spirituality that was developed in the west, in the Latin Church. There are other ritual churches. The Chaldean is one. Some are centered out of Antioch. Some are centered out of Constantinople, and from Constantinople out in Slavic areas. Some in Ethiopia. So, I mean, it has to do with the history of the Church, where the Church was planted, and how she grew from these various branches. So the difference is that while we all belong to the one Catholic Church, we belong to the Catholic Church through a particular identifiable, particular Church. And it has to do with the heritage that we come from, unless somebody becomes a convert. And then you could be a convert from, say, a Protestant community and join the Chaldean Church, for example, but they have their own Bishop because they have their own forms of Church life. Mary: Do you — does the Chaldean Bishop, is there a Chaldean Bishop that resides in the Archdiocese of Detroit? Archbishop Vigneron: There is. An actually there is for all the members of the ritual Churches in the world, there is a Bishop in the United States, except for the the Ethiopian and Eritrean Catholics. They don't have a Bishop in the United States, but everybody else does. They don't all live in Detroit, only the Chaldean Bishop does, but the Maronites have actually two bishops in the United States. The Melkites have a Bishop, the Ukrainians have a Bishop, the Ruthinians have a Bishop, everybody, but the Ethiopians and the Eritreans. Mary: So when you meet as bishops is like the USCCB, is that only Latin rite bishops? Or do you also invite — it's everybody? Archbishop Vigneron: Not invite, they are full members of the conference. Mary: Oh, I don't think I knew that. That's so interesting. Archbishop Vigneron: The only thing they can't participate in is when we make norms or authorized translations for the liturgical books of the Latin Church. Speaker 3: 'Cause theirs are different, right? Like they use different liturgical books? Archbishop Vigneron: Right. Mary: Not the content, obviously the prayers are the same, but different "small t" traditions within their expression of faith. Right, Archbishop Vigneron: Right. I mean if you have ever been to the Chaldean liturgy, they use a very different format and a different Eucharistic prayer, which is quite ancient, really. It's beautiful. But one of the beauties of all of this is to recognize that the spiritual wealth of the light of Christ is too great to be captured in any one format. Mary: Well, our final question comes from Declan at St. Francis Cabrini, and he says, "The Detroit Catholic once had an article about you blessing the salt mines of Detroit. Other than that, what is one of the most unusual or unique things that you have been asked to bless?" Archbishop Vigneron: You know, nothing comes immediately to mind in response to that. Everything fades in comparison with that seemingly interminable ride down the elevator without any electricity going down hundreds of feet under the city. But it was, you know, Declan is right, that is unique and unusual. But in every blessing I think maybe it's easy enough to understand blessing a religious object, to bless a holy picture, bless a rosary. But I saw Detroit Catholic online the other day. The friars out at the retreat house in Washington had the blessing of tools on Father's Day, even blessing of those kinds of objects, secular objects, blessing of pets. It is all part of an ecology, an attitude to creation, that creation needs to — we have, through Christ, the authority to liberate the elements of creation from the domination of sin and bring it into the service of the kingdom of God, where it belongs. So that — and every blessing is always a thanksgiving to God for this, this good thing tools. One of the most important is to bless our food. The blessing of our food is an acknowledgement of the Lordship of God and his goodness because food is, is such an elemental part of human life. Mike: Well Archbishop, is there anything specific that we can pray for you this any intentions that you have for this next, between episodes and our next month that we can pray for you? Archbishop Vigneron: Well, I'm not sure when this will go out on the air, but we are certainly in these days when we make the transition to Families of Parishes for the Wave One parishes, and I think that the support of everybody's prayers for that really significant to move into life of our local church. It's an epochal change. Mike: Yeah. And Archbishop, if you wouldn't mind, would you close us with a closing blessing and prayer? Archbishop Vigneron: Yes. Going to use Pope Francis's Prayer to Saint Joseph. Saint Joseph, Guardian of the Redeemer, spouse of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to you God entrusted his only son. In you, Mary placed her trust. With you, Christ became man. Blessed Joseph, to us to show yourself a father and guide us in the path of life. Obtain for us grace, mercy, and courage, and defend us from every evil. Amen. May almighty God bless all of you listeners and those you love, almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Mike: Thank you so much, Archbishop, and thank you again for writing this pastoral note. It was really great for us to converse about. Archbishop Vigneron: Oh, you're welcome. Mary: Stay tuned for the next episode of Eyes on Jesus, a new episode every month. And if you enjoy listening, you might also like Detroit Stories, a podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit, find it on your favorite podcast app.