Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I'm Archbishop Allen Vigneron of the Archdiocese of Detroit. And this is the Eyes on Jesus podcast. Mike Chamberland: Hello, and welcome to the Eyes on Jesus podcast with Archbishop Vigneron. I'm your host, Mike Chamberland, and I am Mary Wilkerson. We are excited to release new episodes once a month, so please make sure to subscribe and review wherever it is that you listen the podcast. Archbishop, welcome and thank you so much for joining us once again. How are you today? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I'm doing fine. Thank you. Great to be with you, Mike, Mary. So glad to be here. Mike Chamberland: Wonderful. Archbishop, how has your month been and how has summer been for you so far? Obviously, I know things are a little different now with COVID and whatnot. I hope you've been able to get out, but do you have any specific things you'd love to do over this summer and summer activities? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I tried to be outside as much as I can. I was able to get away. I had two weeks of vacation right after the Fourth of July. It was in the northern part of the Lower Peninsula which I always loved, and I was with priest friends and had a chance to just be relaxed and to read. I tried to take advantage of the sunshine. Right now, it's kind of humid, but I remember what it's like to have below zero and to have what seems like 20 minutes of daylight at the end of December. So, I tried to rebel in my summer. Mike Chamberland: Yeah, I do the same thing. Anytime it starts to feel a little uncomfortable, and I'll admit it's uncomfortable at times in the summer, I always do the same thing. I think about January and negative temperatures, and then it makes me feel a bit better about it. Mary Wilkerson: When you go on vacation, Archbishop Vigneron, are you able to unplug from things? Is it actually truly a vacation for you? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I'm in recovery on that point, Mary. I've made a resolution and I lived up to it most days to look at my phone twice and no more, but I can't completely unplug. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, it's hard. I remember even when I was working in the church, I would try to take a sacred Monday off of work. But it's just especially now with the way that we're connected to each other, it's tough to just really enter into that time of peace and relaxation. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I tried to think of the time apart. Creating a time apart is an act of faith to let Jesus go on watch and he can get along without me for a while. Mary Wilkerson: Hey, that's a good way to view that. Mike Chamberland: And it's a good way of thinking about it. Archbishop, I know you said you read on vacation. If you might, just out of curiosity, what types of things do you like to read just for your vacation time reading? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I like history and I like biography. I have put off working my way through a very detailed biography of St. John Henry Newman, and I was able to get through that on vacation. But I liked history. I find, as I've grown older, I enjoy history more than fiction. Mary Wilkerson: So last month, we spent some time talking about the creation of families of parishes, and I know just from the work that I do with different church communities, people are excited about it and curious about it. In the time since we spoke last, we know that our priests and lay leaders have been working to develop a plan. How's that work going? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I think going very well. I think the work groups are digging into the tasks that I've asked them to perform and I think they're bringing a lot of light and wisdom to it. I think one of the real advantages we have and we've been told by other diocese that they agree is that we were doing this on the basis of the synod. So, it isn't as if we're simply making institutional changes without a vision of what it's for. We know why we need to do this. We need to do it for the sake of being on mission. There are a lot of questions, usually they involve the practicalities of it. And those questions are things that have to be determined. But the most important thing is to keep the vision. We want to restructure our parochial life for the sake of being more effective on mission. I don't know if you happen to see, I think it was just last week, the Holy Fathers Congregation for Clergy, which is special care in this area, issued an instruction on this very topic and it gives us some really good guidance about the mind of the church and grouping parishes together, how that can be done, always keeping the focus on what Pope Francis calls us to a missionary conversion. So, our parishes have to be engaged in a missionary conversion. Conversion's not easy. It always means dying to something, letting something go, getting out of the boat, walking on the water. And I hope to be helpful to all of us and encouraging us to do that. And I've to say, there are times when I kind of quail about the magnitude of the change, but get a lot of encouragement from the priests and the lay leaders telling me, "Hey, you get out of the boat too. You can do it." Mary Wilkerson: It's funny, I was talking to a couple friends about families of parishes yesterday and they're quite connected to different parishes in the archdiocese in different ways. And we were talking about exactly what you're saying, this connection to the synod and the generational work that we're doing. So, the fact that you're saying that Pope Francis spoke to this movement of grouping parishes together. What a nod from the Holy Spirit, right? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Exactly. Mary Wilkerson: That's cool. I'll have to look that up because that's really neat to just see another indication that this work is very blessed and ordained by God and the Spirit. So, that's great. Mike Chamberland: Wonderful. Archbishop, I know you said you're on vacation early in July and I know around that time marked the 24th anniversary of your ordination as auxiliary bishop of Detroit. So, obviously, you served from here until 2003. And then, you were obviously named to Oakland, California. You spent a few years there out west and you came back here in 2009. Thinking about your time as a bishop and looking back over your years of service, are there any things in particular that you feel particularly grateful for or some things that have been a surprise, the things you didn't expect being a bishop? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Let's start with the surprise. I never expected I'd have to build a cathedral, which was presented to me as the task in front of me as soon as I got to Oakland. Mike Chamberland: Oh, really? I didn't know that. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Do you remember where you were in '90? You probably weren't even born yet, Mike, in 1989, the World Series? Mike Chamberland: Oh, yeah. I was born, but I was 9 years old. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, in 1989, in the middle of the World Series, screens went blank in the game in San Francisco because there was a monumental earthquake. Mary Wilkerson: I remember that. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: And the Diocese of Oakland lost its Cathedral at that time. Mary Wilkerson: Oh, wow. Mike Chamberland: Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: And so, when I went there in 2003, they said, "We have a plan for a cathedral, and you have to decide if you're going to do it or not." Mike Chamberland: Oh my gosh. No pressure. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: That was a surprise. Things I'm grateful for, I would say, it's been remarkable the people that God has placed in my life as friends and co-workers, the generous, talented, inspiring holy people that God, in His providence, given me. Now, the thing I'm grateful for is God's got a better plan than I do. Things are not on the scenario that I might have expected, but God's scenario has brought me many blessings beyond what would have happened if it had been my own scenario. Mary Wilkerson: I'd love seeing that. When you went to Oakland, Archbishop Vigneron, did you think that you would be back in Detroit or- Archbishop Allen Vigneron: No, no, no, no,no. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, you were thinking you were leaving. Because I wondered about that, the fact that you are in a diocese that you were raised in. Is that unusual or does that happen a lot? How did that work? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: No, it doesn't happen very often. In the time I was called back to Detroit by the Holy Father, there were a number of us who had that same experience. For example, somebody who has been a bishop about as long as I have, who right around the same time I came back to Detroit was called back as a native son of New Orleans to become the Archbishop of New Orleans. There were several of us at that one time, but it is quite the exception. I'm the 10th Bishop of Detroit, but the first Detroit priest to be our bishop. Mary Wilkerson: No way. That's super interesting. And probably a blessing that you can be by family as you do ministry, because I'm sure that's a particular challenge of the bishops when they get assigned to different places that are far away from their homes and their family, right? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: It is. And certainly, it's great to be back on my home turf. I think one of the thoughts of the Holy Father and the Cardinals who advise on these appointments is that it's good to have a fresh set of eyes, good mind, and heart to look at things. And so, it's good, often, to bring somebody in. But I can say for myself, I think my knowledge of the Archdiocese, the priest and the people, I think has helped me be a good bishop. That's not to say that someone who came from outside wouldn't have brought another set of graces to it, but I think I can see the blessing of it and hope God doesn't think I'm haughty to say. I can see some wisdom in what he did. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, like that movement or not from the spirit. Mike Chamberland: Yeah. I mean, it seems like you were able to hit the ground running a little bit better right off the bat because of your knowledge of the history of the Archdiocese and its priests and decisions that have been made having grown up here and everything. That seems like a real positive thing. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, there are... As a great spiritual author once said to us when I was in the seminary, "You can't get all the cookies in one jar." And there's always trade-offs. But I do feel it has... I can feel the blessing of it. Mary Wilkerson: That's awesome. Well, today, I'm so excited for the topic that we're going to talk about. It's something that's been on my heart weighing heavily. Obviously, we're living through this pandemic of COVID. It's funny, I saw a Facebook mug yesterday that said, "I long for precedented times," because we're so used to unprecedented times as we move through this. Ever since the pandemic began, there's been so many changes and hardships, and a lot of them can appear to lend themselves to despair. With a future that has so much uncertainty, many of us are feeling that temptation to despair. Our jobs are uncertain, our professional environments are uncertain. We're not sure what we're going to do with our children in the fall. Some of us aren't even confident what Sunday worship is going to look like for the next couple of months. We have no idea when the pandemic is going to end and when this disruption to our lives is going to cease. But you have been such a steady voice for me personally, and I know so many people that have been blessed to tune into this podcast with the comforting words that you have shared, reminding us that this is God's appointed time and we are His people. I can't tell you how many times, Archbishop Vigneron, I have reminded myself of that when I get nervous or anxious, that your words have reminded me that this is God's time for His people. Early on when this began or moved through Lent, you said this is the Lent that God made for us. So today, what we're going to talk about is maybe even going bigger to this idea of how to lean into hope in times of despair. This is the 2020 that God made for us and that we were created for to live in this time. Can you speak to that just a little bit more and what you mean by that, that this is God's time for us? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: God's in charge. There's such a big difference between hope and optimism. Hope is looking forward to something good, with a confidence that one will attain it. It's not simply an aspiration, it's part aspiration. It's anticipating, it's expecting what one really longs for confidently that I'll get there, it'll be given to me, I will have it. Why do we hope? Because Jesus is risen from the dead. Mary, when I have a day like you're talking about, this is what I say to myself, "Look, do you believe or not that Jesus rose from the dead? And if He did, He will conquer, He will triumph. All I need to do is to be part of His project, and I will have... He can do this. He has made a promise and He can keep it." I think it's all about the resurrection really. And so, this is our time. I don't know exactly how living in hope is going to turn out practically, what concretely it's going to mean, but our principal task, our real vocation is to glorify the Father to abandon ourselves to His will. And so, let the world know that we've got a Father that we trust, and we know that He's not going to let us down. I think this is why our great priest, Father Solanus, could say to people who came to him, "Thank god ahead of time." That's an example of real Christian hope, to tell God what we think we need and to let Him then give us what He knows we need and to thank Him for that. I think hope and gratitude, Christian thankfulness are really two dimensions of the same heart and attitude. I don't know, Mary, if it ever, Mike, if it strikes you when you go to Mass after the priest says, "Lift up your hearts," and you say, "We got them. They're up. They're lifted up." And the priest says, "It is right to give God thanks and praise," you say, "It's right and just." And the praise then says, "Boy, are you on target. It's right always in everywhere to give God thanks." If you think about "always, everywhere," man, I didn't think a lot about this when I was newly ordained, but I've come to a point in my life where this is what strikes me right between the eyes when I lead the Eucharist, "Everywhere? Auschwitz, it got there? Always? In the middle of the pandemic? There's a gift given?" Yes. And the gift... I'm sorry to be running on like this, but- Mary Wilkerson: No, this is wonderful. Yeah, this is wonderful. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: The gift that we're given didn't come cheap. Jesus purchased this gift for us by the last drop of His blood. He had to die, so that He then could triumph in His rising. And in that, make it possible to... There isn't any space or time where Jesus is not Lord, in which God cannot bring good and do good. Because if there were, there would be even infinitesimal, some small corner of the cosmos where the devil was able to triumph, but there isn't even one, not even under the radiator or behind the cupboard that He has a large ship. Mary Wilkerson: It's such a profound narrative to rest in when so many of us are thinking like, "What next?" It just seems that we are just spiraling out of control with the pandemic and then the racial riots and then the division, and there's just so many things to ground ourselves in the anchor of what we know to be true. It's just that's the source of our hope, right? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Right. And it doesn't mean we stop struggling, that we give up trying to do our best and make things better and figure out what to do about the kids in school and how we're going to pay the rent. We don't become passive, but we can live with serenity. Mike Chamberland: That's great, Archbishop. Thanks for that. I mean, I know you said earlier, and I love what you said there, you said hope is not the same as optimism. I think today and especially in our just normal parlance in the way we speak, we conflate them where we put them juxtaposed and just right next to each other in the same sense of the way we use the term. So, I was wondering if you could just elaborate a little bit on that distinction, specifically on hope as opposed to merely an optimism, and especially hope as tied to the other theological virtues of faith, hope, and love, of course. Could you expand on that a little bit? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, it's exactly where you want to direct the conversation like hope is a theological virtue. Optimism is a disposition that comes naturally to some people. Other people tend to see the dark side, the negatives, but even they ought to have hope because it isn't a disposition that's about nature. It's a habit of heart and mind. That is a share in the heart and mind of Jesus to trust in the Father. That really is the difference. The three theological virtues are habits, a disposition to be able to act. I don't know. Mike, you play an instrument, right? Mike Chamberland: I do. I play drums and little guitar and stuff as well. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Okay. So, you have a habit of drum playing. Now, I could thump on the drum, but I don't have a habit of being able to excel at drum playing. You've got the habit. You have a ready disposition to excel in the performance. That's just the habit. The theological habits are ready dispositions to behave as sons and daughters of the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, to be able to do what Jesus does. That's the thing. That's why they're called theological because they're about God. They have God as their goal and they have God as the power behind these habits. They're given to us, they're graces. We can help and let them be perfected. And so, hope is the trust that lies in the heart of Jesus being shared in our heart. I don't know if that helps clarify the difference. Mike Chamberland: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Mary Wilkerson: So then, would you say that when we say that we are people of hope, what are we hoping for then? Is it the confidence that God is present to us, that God is in control? When we say we lean into the habit of hope during the pandemic, are we hoping that the pandemic goes away? What do we hope for as Catholic Christians? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: We hope that God's will will be done and we are confident that God's will will be done. And that his will is to give us Himself, and He will do that in any moment that we turn to Him. And so, yeah, we hope that He will hear our prayers and deliver us from the pandemic, if that is for His glory and our salvation. But we are confident that whatever He permits to happen will be a way for him to be glorified and for us to be saved, and for our kids to be saved, and for our loved ones to be saved. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, I like that you said that. We tell God what we think we need and then we trust that He will give us what we need. I think that sums it up, right? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: It does, and He knows better what we need than what we can calculate. Such a difference between the God that Jesus reveals to us, the God that came to speak to Abraham, the God of the revelation from a philosophy God is that the real God, the revealed God, cares more about our getting to be happy than we do. Did you ever think about that? Your happiness, Mary, is more important to God than it is to you. Mary Wilkerson: Right. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I mean, that blows my mind. Mary Wilkerson: As a mom, one of the things I've been praying for as we just look at our society and with the pandemic, and all the fears that come from a parent point of view is exactly what you said. Not necessarily for me, I can have confidence. I think that God wills my happiness more than I can even imagine, but sometimes when it comes to my kids, I have a hard time leaning into that trust that God wants for my kids more than I can imagine for them. Because I have so many worries resting in raising them in this world. But like you said, God wants more for them, more happiness and more freedom and more love than I can possibly fathom, right? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Yeah. And there's a certain kind of liberation that comes from that. You and your husband don't have to be perfect parents. I mean, if it were only up to you, that just could crush you. Mary Wilkerson: Exactly. Yeah. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I mean, I'm not at all worried that you're going to become indifferent or lackadaisical, but just let some of the steam out. Mary Wilkerson: It does actually, and I think that's one of the things. I oftentimes think about hope in contrast to despair. And when I personally struggle with despair, it usually does have to do more with my children and the world that's being created for them, and that understanding that it takes a bit of a prayer and true abandonment to trust that to God and that God will be able to, with his grace, move in their lives in a way that I can't even imagine. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: And He may permit them to have tough times quite likely than He willed, but He will give them the grace to use the tough times to get themselves ready for an eternity of bliss with Him. Mike Chamberland: Archbishop, why do you think hope is so particularly important during difficult times? I mean, I like your distinction that you're talking about between optimism and hope. And I think a lot of times, we just desire to feel optimistic, but what you're talking about is obviously more of a virtue which is a habit. So, it's a gift first given and then a habit which we cultivate in ourselves. How do you see that or how did you see in your own life help you through your different anxieties and fears? And how would you encourage us to allow it to watch over us and help us through this time of anxiety and fear? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, for myself, Mike, I take very seriously the responsibilities, the pastoral responsibilities I have, and it's not just for the Catholics of the six counties. I have to be accountable to God for what I've done for the salvation of everybody in this archdiocese. Without hope, without a confidence that God can use the little mustard seed I am, I don't even know if I bring six loaves and four fish to the dinner like what Paul put. We hold the treasure in earthen vessels, and without God giving me hope, I think I'd lost my mind. Mary Wilkerson: It's funny. So, on that point, Pope Benedict, in his 2007 encyclical on hope, says, "The one who has hope lives differently, the one who hopes has been granted the gift of a new life." He goes on to say, "Hope empowers us to live differently because a Christian understanding of hope is rooted in the unshakable conviction that God loves us and wants our good, a fact memorably exclaimed by Paul's declaration in Romans, 'If God is for us, who can be against us?'" This point, obviously, parallels your words that this is the time that God has created us for. So, knowing that and taking that into context, how can we live differently in this pandemic? How should a Catholic Christian be living in a way different than some of the turmoil in our world? How can we encourage others to live differently with us? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I think prayer and witness are two very important things and invite people to pray with us, I think is very, very powerful. I've been with a man who is very much devoted to evangelization, Steve Dawson, in the St. Paul Institute. And when people come for prayer, Steve says, "Well, let's pray now." And so, I think if I find, you find somebody who comes across our path who seems to be cast down, doubtful about the triumph of the good, I think, to pray together, to say, "Let's pray. Let's ask God to come into this time, this difficulty that seems so very, very dark." I think that's a very powerful witness and very efficacious approach. Mary Wilkerson: Are there any aspects of this pandemic that you've personally struggled with that are difficult for you? And how has hope helped you navigate that? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I'm very concerned about the danger that the pandemic is to people in general and especially to people I love. I've got a nephew who has a condition that makes him vulnerable, I have a niece who is a nurse, those kinds of things. So, that's very personal. As well as I'm very concerned about the vulnerable priests of the archdiocese. So, that's a matter I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about the spiritual damage that's being done in people's lives by the pandemic. I don't know if people are going to get too accustomed to not being at church on Sunday. I don't know what that might mean for the future. And I find it difficult to... I feel challenged by the impact that the pandemic is having on the ordinary affairs of the diocese. I was particularly saddened by the fact that we had to move away from our sent-on mission parish planning process and recalibrate the whole effort. But I'm confident in all of this. If I abandon it all into God's hands, it will be even better than the way I had expected it to go, all of those things. Mary Wilkerson: And do you consciously... Because some of the weight of this probably fall so heavily on your shoulders being a faith leader in this area. Do you consciously bring that to prayer to ask God to instill you with hope? No, but with hope in particular? I mean, obviously- Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I do. I do. I do. I have a little booklet that I use regularly in meditation. It's called the Golden Counsels of St. Francis de Sales. And the message in most every page is the same about giving oneself over to God with abandoned love. But one little line that I've been living with greatly is God has helped you in the past, and when you can't walk, he'll carry you. Mary Wilkerson: Oh, that's good. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: That's the kind of Father He is. Mike Chamberland: Archbishop, I know working in the parish, we've been trying to make calls out to a lot of our parishioners and just touch base and make sure people are doing okay and see if there's any needs we can meet for them. A few of those phone calls have... What's emerged is obviously some people that are really, truly riddled with fear and anxiety over a lot of this. And of course, this is having its toll on so many people these days in 2020. What are your thoughts, just as a priest, as a bishop, what kind of practical advice would you give people tempted to despair at this time? What kind of encouragement or any words that you would give to them that will hopefully act as a healing balm, if you will? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I think the best way for the word, the saving word, to come to people who are on the brink is for somebody to speak to them personally a word of encouragement. And the word of encouragement I would offer to someone is to acknowledge the pain of it, the challenge, the fear, I mean, fear is a disposition of expecting the good that we want will be taken away from us, to acknowledge that that's very real and there are a lot of reasons to feel that fear, but to get back in touch with the conviction that Jesus has risen from the dead and to bring all of that fear to Him Himself and ask Him to cast it out. I think I can make and take ourselves down a dead end if we imagine that handling our fear is false to us as a task. We can't overcome our fear. It's only Christ in us. It's only the Holy Spirit who can overcome this fear, in one sense, of ourselves. Put it that way. We can't hope. It's only Christ in us who can hope, and we have to ask Him to do that. And I think for somebody who is, what Pope Francis calls, on the way with that person who accompanies that person, for the individual, the fearful individual and the sister, the brother, to make that prayer together, I think is the most efficacious way. Mary Wilkerson: So, one of the things that, and this is a harder thing to talk about but that we know to be true, is that the Eucharist helps our faith and helps to encourage the habit of faith, hope, and love of the theological virtues. It strengthens us and it nurtures us and it's just so crucial in terms of cultivating hope to be near to the Eucharist and receive the Eucharist. And yet we're at this time where many of us have discerned that it's not safe for us to receive the Eucharist. And so, how do we reconcile that, Archbishop Vigneron, not being close to the Eucharist knowing that it's this source of strength? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I think to take the extraordinary means by which we can participate in that Eucharistic strength, I think that's one of the advantages of the media that lets us do all this live streaming, that we can be in spirit united to the holy sacrifice, make the spiritual communion, by which we ask God to give us the fruit of communion even though we're not able to have the experience of Holy Communion. And perhaps to be even more intentional about it in the absence of being able to go to church. Maybe some people who are Sunday mass goers can now be in communion through the media, with mass twice a week, that sort of thing. Take extra time to be focused on the Eucharist and to ask God even more ardently for the fruits of Holy Communion than they did when they actually were able to receive the body and blood of Christ. They could become more devout, more Eucharistically devout, in this time than they were before. That might be the grace offered at the time. Mary Wilkerson: You spoke when we talked about some of the ways that mass has altered in this pandemic are receiving the Eucharist, celebrating the Eucharist, about some real true discernment about whether or not we should be attending mass on Sunday for our own families and really prayerfully and sincerely, taking that to consideration if we should be in worship spaces. Do you have any guidance about how to discern that? Because like my family, we're going to mass now and we're taking all the precautions. My children wear masks and our parish has done an excellent job with social distancing. But I'll tell you, some Sundays, there's a larger than I'm used to temptation to be like, "Oh, we have a dispensation this week, so we don't necessarily have to go." I have fought that temptation. But do you think maybe that temptation is more profound for us now? How do we discern through that to make sure that we're tapping into the Eucharist during these times? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I think your own discernment is very correct to not go because you have a dispensation just in order to use the dispensation without a good reason. That's not helpful. I mean, you're not breaking the law, but you're not helping your own spiritual life that way. So, I think that's a very good question. I mean, do I have a good reason to use the dispensation more than simple convenience? I think that's very important. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah, to make sure I think that we lean into the Eucharist if we're able to, especially during this time as a source of our hope, right, because then it becomes this authentic theological virtue for us versus the distinction of optimism. We're really relying on Jesus to help us with it. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Right. And do I recognize that I really ought to be there if I can be there. And God is glorified. God would like me to be there, and to put it in an incarnational term, Jesus is disappointed if I don't show up at His banquet. I mean, isn't that the parable? His father wants the banquet hall to be filled. Mary Wilkerson: Yes. And that's a real personal way too to look at it versus a legalistic way. Am I going to be in this state of sin if I'm not there on Sunday? But no, Jesus wants us there with Him if we're able to worship with Him. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I don't want to make people scrupulous either. Mary Wilkerson: No, of course not. Yeah. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: People need to make their best judgment. I think there are lots of people who really do feel that there are sound reasons to keep themselves more secured. Mary Wilkerson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, in Unleash the Gospel, you talked about the progression of encounter, grow, and witness. And once we have encountered Christ, we grow as disciples and we must witness what we have to others. And a lot of times, I think some of us get stuck in the grow part, and not necessarily the witness part. So, when we talk about hope and trusting in God, how do we share that with others? And maybe I'm going to ask for some creativity. How do we do that in times of pandemic? How do we witness to other's hope? What can we say to cultivate that, not only in our own lives but to go forward with that during this time? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: When people ask me about witness, Mary, I tend to think in terms of concentric circles. So, the first person that you need to witness to, if I could be so bold, is your husband. And then let him witness to you, call that out from him. You witness to your children. And then, keep moving out your relatives, your neighbors, and then you get even to people you deal with in just ordinary, go into Myers or Walmart, to find a way to do that, and God will... If you pray every morning to be on watch for the person that God's going to send you so that you can be His prophet to that person, somebody will show up. It will happen. It doesn't have to be particularly dramatic, but there will be an occasion for you for me to be a witness to hope. And it could be something as simple as being patient. But God has a plan. So, what do I think in some I've raveled on, I guess- Mary Wilkerson: No, not at all. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Every morning as part of the morning prayer, Lord, help me be ready to offer the witness to glorify You, to whomever it is You send me to be their messenger, their angel today. At the end of the day, when you make your examination of conscience, just think about how that happened, how did it go. Mary Wilkerson: What a great habit. Yeah. I've never even thought to pray in the morning like, "Let me be a witness if you want me to witness to someone today, and make me aware of that." And I think one of the best ways to witness is what I've learned from some street evangelization that says, "Can I pray for you?" If they say yes, we can say, "How about right now? Can I offer a little prayer right now with you?" Mike Chamberland: I like what you said there about the circles, that concentric circles, as well, because I think for a lot of people, especially in the pews, and I know I deal with this here at the parish life a lot, people, I think, get riddled in fear over the idea of evangelizing because they think it means the street evangelization, so they feel like they have to go from 0 to 60, and that's a big leap to make. Whereas, what you're trying to suggest is obviously start small. Start with yourself, your spouse, your family, friends, co-workers and let the spiral out, if you will. And you'll maybe get to the point where you're supposed to do door-to-door street evangelization and maybe you won't, and that's okay. But there's still a witness that's to be done at any of those levels. That's a great reminder, Archbishop. Thank you. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Yeah, I happened to be in the airport one time with a professor from Notre Dame and we got talking about evangelization. I think he's an engineering professor and he said that the particular way he and his wife evangelize is that once a month, they have some social time at their home on Sunday and they invite neighbors randomly. I mean, they don't all have to be Catholic. They just invite neighbors to come, maybe it's a barbecue, maybe it's a Frisbee championship. They just do something with families. But they always make sure that there's a time of prayer, usually informal prayer, but they all gather and thank God for the grace of their families and the good things that... You know how that kind of prayer would be like? Mary Wilkerson: Absolutely. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: And the professor said that he thought one of the best means of evangelization is for his family to witness to the other families in the neighborhood that being centered on Christ is what makes their family life work. Mike Chamberland: Archbishop, is there anything else specifically you just want to add as far as this idea of hope, especially hope during this time of 2020, which is such a difficult year that we've gone through so far? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: One particular thing I might ask is for the listeners to be encouraging of their parish priests, to express the priests their appreciation for all the extraordinary things the priests are doing to try and give pastoral care in this very unusual time and to shore up the priest's own conviction that God will bring good fruit out of our efforts. Mary Wilkerson: Well, we've asked people from the Archdiocese to submit their questions to eyesonjesuspodcast@aod.org. Each month, we ask Archbishop Vigneron to answer a handful of those questions, covering all sorts of topics. If anyone listening would like to send us a question, you can go ahead and email us at eyesonjesuspodcast@aod.org and make sure to include your first name and your home parish, and then, of course, your question. So, Archbishop Vigneron, the first question comes from Joshua from St. Joseph Parish in Trenton. And his question is, "Are tattoos sinful or bad?" He goes on to say, "I already had several when I became Catholic nine years ago, and have gotten an additional Catholic tattoos since my conversion. I would love to continue to get tattoos but only if I know that's okay. I have heard many conflicting opinions from Catholics and priests. I would love to get your take on it. Thank you so much and thanks for being an excellent example and leader." Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I need to give full disclosure and say that I had to look this up from the Manual of Moral Theology. The first one I went to didn't even give me a guide about it. But I'm going to talk about principles. And then, for Joshua, as he makes a particular decision about whether or not to get the next step, he's going to have to apply the principles. And if he finds it difficult to apply the principle, he can talk to his parish priest about it. The principle is that we have to protect two good parts or two goods when it comes to the care for our body. First of all, we have a responsibility to keep ourselves healthy. And also, a good thing is to keep our body looking good. That is a worthwhile good. It's not the most important, but we can do that. If in a certain culture, a tattoo piercing is a way to enhance that attractiveness, that can be legitimate as long as it doesn't impede health, according to the moralists. However, if something... And they do particularly mentioned tattoos, if in a particular culture, tattoos take on some sort of anti-social significance or if they were to make it difficult for the person with the tattoos to be able to engage with other people, created a social distance in ordinary life, then tattoos become contrary to the good of the body and the good of the person. So, I think those are important principles. So, fair to say, it seems to me we live in a culture that does not totally reject tattoos, and there are ways that people find them enhancing. But I think that the judgment has to be, certainly it can't be tattoos that are anti-social would be wrong to have, a swastika or something, certainly even blasphemous as a tattoo. But also, at what point does the accumulation of tattoos impede a person being able to have free ordinary communication with most people? And if I were Joshua's parish priest, and he wants to talk to me about this, one of my questions to him is, at what point might this make it difficult for you to find the woman that God wants you to marry? Are you creating a difficulty in being able to date and find a good wife? I think those are important. That'd be the way I go about it. You both are catechists, you both serve, ask me any further questions or clarifications or maybe you have some clarification you could offer about it. Mary Wilkerson: I actually love that answer, Archbishop Vigneron. I actually have a small tattoo on my forearm that I got after I did a pilgrimage to the Holy Land. It's a Jerusalem cross. And I find and I work with young people and young adults, it actually enhances my ministry. It's not an overtly large one. But when people ask me about it, I'm able to tell them about the pilgrimage that I experienced. And on that pilgrimage, I had prayed heavily that God's will be done, but then I meet a spouse. And three weeks later, my husband asked me on our first date. So, I consider that a Holy Land blessing. And so, for me, it's been helpful in ministry. But I love the distinctions that you make because I think it is important that especially as Christian Catholics, we want to look approachable to all people and to be able to witness if we're putting tattoos on us, why are we doing it and what are we trying to show with it. So, I think you did a really good job with that. Don't you, Mike? Mike Chamberland: I do. Yeah. I've always started... It comes down a lot to circumstantial and intentions. So, what are the intentions that you have in mind behind getting the tattoo? Obviously, like you mentioned, Archbishop, to get a tattoo of a swastika, what's going on there? Why would you want that? But to get a Chi-Rho or to get some other religious symbol or something someplace... It's obviously another thing to get a tattoo on the middle of your face. You might get a Chi-Rho, but it's on the middle of your face. Well, why are you doing that? So, it's just a lot of intentional. I thought about intentions and circumstances around it. So yeah, I thought you answered it great, Archbishop. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: The moralists say that a tattoo can be within certain social circumstances, a way to enhance your physical appearance, and that's acceptable as long as it doesn't hurt your health. But you have to take into account to what it does to your interpersonal relationships. Mike Chamberland: Right. Mary Wilkerson: I love the completeness of the answer too, because I've definitely had people that have been a little scandalized, and it's a very small tattoo, they're just saying, "Oh my gosh, I thought that was a grave evil that we weren't allowed to do that under any circumstances." And that wasn't my understanding. My understanding was much more where your understanding is Archbishop Vigneron. So, it's helpful to know I didn't make a tragic mistake nine years ago. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I wouldn't have... I needed to read the moral manual. I will be honest with you. Mary Wilkerson: That's great. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: It gives you the principles to apply. Mike Chamberland: Very good. Well, Archbishop, Kathy from St. Michael the Archangel in Livonia asks the question, "What is your advice for those of us who are faith formation leaders in the Archdiocese of Detroit as we walk through this journey of returning our students to schools in the midst of COVID? Looking for your wisdom, insight, and grace." Archbishop Allen Vigneron: As I thought about this question, Mike, it occurred to me that I can answer from two sides. One is for the catechist, for Kathy, about her own faith journey and then about the faith journey of the people she serves. I think, again, this takes us very much back to the earlier conversation about hope to ask God, ask the Holy Spirit, especially, I think is the right focus to imprint in her heart, enflame in her heart, the abandonment of Jesus Himself, which in us is a form of hope, and to practice every day looking for the grace that God offers. And I think that can be very much a habit of prayer to begin the day saying, "Lord, as I look at this day, help me already see where the grace is going to be and what I anticipate." And then at the end of the day, to take account some of the spiritual authors call this an examination of consciousness, that at the end of the day, it isn't just about totaling up the mistakes, the failures, but where was grace offered to me today in dealing with that crabby dad or being cut off for significant things, hearing the bad news about the increase of COVID infections. What's the grace offered there, and did I take it? So, praying for an increase of hope, this habit of looking for the gift in any situation and praising God for it. And then, I think this is very much part of being a catechist is it's out of our own faith journey that we're able to walk with others, as she mentions. And so, not only to share these practices with her students, but to rehearse them, to do them together. It seems to me that as a catechist, that a most effective way is to not only teach people what to do but to do it with them, and not simply as a rehearsal, but to be doing it authentically and to make them part of the doing. I think maybe I've oversimplified, but that that's how it looks to me. But again, you're both catechists, what do you think? Mike Chamberland: Yeah, I think it partly depends on, I don't know, if she's trying to ask from... Obviously, everything you said was great. I think from a personal level, I don't know if the question is also seeking out more of a concrete logistics and practical answers. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Oh, yeah. I'm not real good at the practical. Mike Chamberland: Well, it's funny, I'm not sure exactly what she was looking for, but I think, like you said, it's very difficult to walk through this journey of returning our back to school and all of this kind of stuff. I think just following, obviously, the governor's orders and those types of things, I think that's one way of doing it. And then just following the practical things that need to be done, always in a mindfulness of faith, always in a mindfulness of hope, as you said, always seeking to bring the Lord even into this difficult times of the pandemic, and always assuring and encouraging our young people in faith through this difficult time, too. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: I didn't think about that side of it, Mike. This may be a question about how to make decisions regarding the practicalities of running a program and how you do that. We're trying our best here in the court and the chancery to give protocols and guidance. I think we'll keep up that work, trying to bring light as best we can to give advice. I think the general principle has to be we need to be reasonably safe, but we can't be absolutely safe. I just don't see how we're going to be able to pull that off. And that's every leader's responsibility is to make a prudent judgment. I mean. I think everybody's doing that, both of you with your families, trying to figure that out what's the reasonable ground that's neither cowardly nor full-hearted about it. But I think, for leaders in parish life, we can provide guidance at the level of the Archdiocese, my co-workers and me, but obviously, that's a team discernment under the leadership of the parish priest, I think. Mary Wilkerson: One thing that I've just really been leaning into during this whole time is the virtue of prudence, right, and just praying that God gives us prudence and what prudence is, right? So, taking all of the knowledge that we have and moving forward with that. Maybe just praying too, relying on that gift from the spirit for good prudence as we make decisions moving into the fall. That's what I've been praying for within my own family. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, I think that's exactly it. And sometimes I wind up avoiding the use of the word "prudence" because for some people, that sounds like the synonym for prudishness. But it is good practical judgment. The kind of thing that mom or dad says, "What were you thinking? Use your head," that's prudence. Mary Wilkerson: I had a moment of catechesis about a month ago where somebody had posted just a real good teaching on what prudence is because she felt like it was such an important virtue for this particular time, and it was a refresher to take hold of the facts and then to trust but also to trust with knowledge of what we're doing. It was really good for me. And I think, honestly, church workers right now, people that work for parishes, school administrators, it's just tough to try to decide a way forward. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: But where I think hope comes in is, we do the best we can because somebody has to make a decision. We can't just be paralyzed. Mary Wilkerson: Yeah. And it's funny because we're recording this at the end of July and I feel like decisions are so up in the air right now. And so, it's tough because at some point, we are going to have to just decide about all kinds of things, about school, about religious formation, about our retreats, about sports, all of these decisions are hanging there. But leaning into hope is a good reminder as we sit in the waiting. So, Lauren from St. Isidore has a question for you, and she says, "How do parents and godparents begin teaching our children about the Catholic faith? Are there any resources that would help young preschoolers?" That's a pretty specific question. "What changes can parents make in how we live our lives as Catholics to be better examples for our children?" Archbishop Allen Vigneron: One of the best presentations I ever heard on this topic was part of the McGrath Institute at Notre Dame. There was a young theology professor who gave a witness, and he based this on some of the sociological research done at the university. The statement, the axiom we use that's articulated in the baptism liturgy, "Parents, you are the first teachers of your children in the faith. Godparents, are you ready to help them?" The theology professor said that the most important way to do that faith sharing is to have the child participate in one's own faith life, not only to see you pray but to pray with the child, to invite that child into one's own discipleship and to share that, whatever devotions it might be. That is the most important way to share the faith. Now, there can be some types of instruction, of course, but really sharing one's experience of Christ is the most important way to share the faith, to take the child on a pilgrimage, to invite the child to come to Eucharistic devotion, to say a decade of the rosary with the child, whatever one's favorite the holy picture is. And it's a lot like how do you share baseball with a kid? It's about going to the game, expressing appreciation for the efforts the kid makes to play baseball, to play baseball with the kid. I think those are the kinds of things that are about how to do this. Now, resources, I'm going to have to have the person who's made the question probably better to talk to the director of religious education at the parish. That person would know more than I do about the resources available. Mary Wilkerson: But that's great because I think you hit on the meat of what we can do as parents is the resources are important and they aid us, but there's a foundation that we set by how we live and engage in our faith. That's probably more important than some of the programming we do. So, that's fundamental, I think. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: And I think witness is important, but I think articulated witness. If somebody in the family, if Mom or Dad likes to fish and shares fishing with the children, they're probably going to like fishing. At least, they're going to like being invited with Mom and Dad. Or going off to play golf or some such thing. Mike Chamberland: Thanks, Archbishop. Well, last question here is from Nicole of St. Peter in Mount Clemens, and she writes, "I am a hospice nurse. I see many very devout Catholics who never missed even a daily mass for 60-some years. They'll become ill or lose their independence, and often the parish priests they know has long since died or retired as well. I often have trouble finding someone to administer the Sacrament of the Sick. What should I do to make sure that my patients can get the sacrament?" Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Well, is this under the ordinary... I'll make a distinction obviously. It says a nurse or hospice worker? I'm sorry I didn't... Mike Chamberland: Oh, she said that she was a hospice nurse. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: So, the nurse doesn't specify whether this is a general trouble or if this is something specific to COVID time. In a general manner, I would say the most important thing is to find out what parish that the sick person belongs to and be in touch with the parish priest there. I think that that's the proper person to give pastoral care to that individual. If that doesn't work, I think the nurse could always call the pastor of the parish in which the hospice is operating. If it's about COVID restrictions, we have a hotline that we can use. We have some priests who have the protective gear. If that were the issue, we can get that to these priests through Father Pullis' office. So, that's pullis.steve@aod.org. Mike Chamberland: Well, Archbishop, thank you so much for joining us once again for this podcast. Are there any specific prayer intentions that you have that we can pray for you? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Yes. Please pray that God give us prudence. That's what we need, right, Mary? Mary Wilkerson: Yes. Preach. Mike Chamberland: Word of the day. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: Give us good practical judgment, all of us, up and down the line as we move forward with forming our parishes into families. Mary Wilkerson: I love that. Mike Chamberland: Amen. And Archbishop, would you mind leaving us any closing prayer? Archbishop Allen Vigneron: No, happy to do it. Once again, let's commend ourselves to the loving care of the Blessed Virgin. Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, we fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, our mother. To thee do we come before thee we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Incarnate Word, despise not our petitions, but in your mercy hear and answer us. Amen. Mike Chamberland: Amen. Mary Wilkerson: Amen. Archbishop Allen Vigneron: May almighty God bless all of you, almighty God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Mike Chamberland: Amen. Mary Wilkerson: Amen. Thank you so much, Archbishop. Mike Chamberland: Thank you so much. Mary Wilkerson: Stay tuned for the next episode of Eyes on Jesus, a new episode every month. If you enjoyed listening, you might also like the Open Door Policy podcast with Father Steve Pullis and Danielle Center, a podcast for joyful missionary disciples and our movement to unleash the gospel. Find it on your favorite podcast app.