CHOOSING YOUR REFLECTION
TITLE: Finding Balance through the Power of Story
DURATION: 37:48

Getting married is an event that holds a different meaning for everyone. For some, itÕs based on religious traditions, and for others itÕs a validation of an earlier choice they made to live with that special someone they love.Ê

Hi, IÕm Lauren, and welcome to Choosing Your Reflection; a series of discussions that reflect upon the reasons we have for choosing our wedding day outfits.Ê Our guests are diverse, but they all share a common journey.Ê

As they share their stories, theyÕll help us unravel the mystique that exists around choosing that special outfit, and what they learned about themselves along the way.

Lauren: Today IÕm excited to introduce author, coach, and facilitator Michael Kass. Michael is the founder of Story and Spirit and is passionate about helping people discover how to harness the power of their personal stories to create change. WeÕll also talk a bit about his book Story Maps: Wayfinding Tools for the Modern Seeker. Michael welcome!

Michael: Thank you so much, Lauren. It's great to be here.

Lauren: Oh, it's wonderful to have you! I would love to start off our conversation with a question about change. Getting married is a big event for a lot of people. Could we talk about what that means in regards to how we share our story in our lives and how that affects us?

Michael: Absolutely. And I want to play with that idea of a wedding as a change and a moment of transition. Because it's also a rite of passage; it's an initiation, right? We go into a wedding and not just the event, but the whole preparation of it. When we pick out the outfit and like, who do we invite? Who do we not invite? We can't put that person at the table with that person, the catering, like the whole thing has the shape of a really intense ritual that marks a significant change in people's lives. 

And so when you look at the story of the wedding and sharing the story, often it gets flattened into, ÒThis was the most #amazingday of my #amazing lifeÓ right? And then we Instagram it, and it's beautiful. Underneath the surface, though, there's so much more nuance and complexity and different relationships that are being strained or coming together in really close ways. 

I've been in several weddings, none of my own, and it's always so fascinating to witness all of those dynamics going on. And then two years later, nobody talks about those. And to me, that's often the most interesting part, right? Everything that was going on under the surface because that's where the transformation happens. The fairy tale stuff is almost like the wrapping, or the bow. It's lovely but that's not where the transformation occurs. The transformation occurs in the intensity of the lead up and all of those relationships and the dynamics underneath.

Lauren: You've mentioned in the past that there are three stories that sort of exist on that plane. And I wonder if you could go into how that collaboration, how that wrapping paper when you pull it apart, how those three stories unravel? 

Michael: The three stories are the stories that we tell others, then there's the stories that we tell ourselves, and then there's the stories that we live inside of, right? And ideally, we want all three of those to be aligned. We want the stories we tell others to be really closely aligned with the stories we tell ourselves about who we are in the world, about our relationship, about all of that, and then those want to fit neatly within the story we're inside of.

A wedding is an amazing crucible, and a test point because at a wedding, for the most part, those three are not in alignment for lots of reasons, right? Because the story you're inside of when you're getting married is so intense! There's so many expectations about what a wedding is supposed to look like, and who is supposed to be there and who's supposed to be witnessing it. And then maybe there's a story we've been telling ourselves about ÒOoh, I'm going to have the perfect wedding. And this is exactly what it needs to look like.Ó And then the story that comes out might be completely different, right? 

And so then it becomes about well, that's kind of uncomfortable É when all of those stories are at odds with each other. That's when you get you know, Bridezilla. It isn't because people are terrible, it's because there's all of this tension they don't feel like they're able to express. Because we're supposed to be happy about weddings but it's so stressful when we don't acknowledge what's actually going on, right?

And so, one of the beautiful things that I've seen at several weddings is when people just sit down and go, ÒAlright, this is not fun. How can we make it É like what is it about this that isn't being fun? And how could we make it fun? How can we make this a joyful experience?Ó And often that leads to dismantling some of those stories that they've been telling themselves, some of those expectations. Those societal expectations, those stories that we're inside of. Saying ÒWell, we're expected to do this in a church. You know what? Let's do it with 20 of our closest friends in a restaurant. And let's throw out the traditional ceremony and write our own because that's the story that we want to tell and that's who we want to be in the world.Ó

Because ultimately, for most folks, the most important thing is that it's a meaningful experience for them and their community, right? Their loved ones. And I think a lot of times people get trapped in this idea of what it should look like, or what it should be. And as a storyteller I'm fascinated by those tensions. If I were getting married and feeling them, I'd be less fascinated and more just like frustrated and at my wit's end!

Lauren: ItÕs easier from the outside to look in!

Michael: Absolutely, really easy to observe and go like, ÒWow, that's so interesting, what a great story!Ó And then inside people are unraveling!

Lauren: And, speaking of sort of the unraveling part that can come if you're not able to step out the way that you just described, you're not able to sit down and go, ÒOkay, how do I fix this?Ó or not necessarily fix but change my view of what the story is supposed to be, I feel like a lot of that has come to a head during this pandemic, where couples, families are forced to say, ÒI can't have this giant, you know, hullabaloo of an event. I have to change the way that I see this unfurling and unraveling.Ó Do you think that that's a positive, based on what you've just described? That the world has forced our hands a little bit in how we tell our stories, and how we're supposed to view them right now?

Michael: Absolutely, I think it's always a good thing to be present with the reality of our circumstances. That doesn't mean it's fun or comfortable. But in general, the less we fight against the world we find ourselves in, then ultimately the more smoothly things go.

I have an example of this. At the beginning of the pandemic, my partnerÔs sister was scheduled to get married. And they live in Ohio. We had plane tickets and we were going to fly there for the wedding. And as this was starting, they were in denial. My girlfriend's sister was in denial that she was going to have to cancel the wedding until like three weeks before, right? It's going to be fine. And then it got scaled down a little bit. And it was all like so much drama! 

And ultimately, they canceled the big wedding and had a small family gathering in their backyard. And you know, we attended via FaceTime on the phone. And it was exactly what they wanted it to be. They were able to have the people who are close to them nearby. And then they were able to have the ceremony that they wanted. It ended up being really beautiful. And the process of getting there was really messy, because they were really struggling as we all were at the beginning of the pandemic with like, ÒWell, hey, what is even happening right now?Ò And then ÒOkay, this is happening. What do we do? How do we dance with this new reality we find ourselves in?Ó 

And I think you're right. I think a lot of people will postpone their weddings. And a lot of people, I have at least six friends I can think of who eloped, who were just like, ÒWell, let's just go off to the forest and do this and we'll send people pictures, and that's what we're gonna do!Ó Right, which is a choice and other people who are really, for them, it's important to have that large ceremonial gathering, have just postponed for a year or so. 

Lauren: Yeah.

So yeah, it's interesting. I don't think there's any one way to navigate it that's right. It really is that process of tuning into what your priorities are, and how you want to be how you want to meet the times that we're in.

Lauren: Life is messy and transitioning is messy, which comes with a wedding already, that transition period and growing as a person, as a family, as a couple, whatever layer you want to talk about. Speaking from experience, I booked my wedding when I first got engaged two years in advance thinking, you know, we got engaged in 2019, I'll get married in 2021, give myself a long engagement. 

And then when the pandemic hit I turned to everyone I was like ÒHaha! Missed this problem!Ó I didn't, we still postponed our wedding. We're not getting married until 2022. I share that because it speaks to I thought that the story I was going to tell was going to avoid all of the problems. But we're still in a pandemic, we're still dealing with the fallout of so many things. And you can think that you can avoid the problems, but sometimes they're still gonna show up.

Michael: Sorry, you had to postpone your wedding. 

Lauren: ItÕs okay. 

Michael: And, I mean, it's a really powerful reminder that we're not actually in control of anything ever. We can pretend we are É even with a wedding, I was in a friend's wedding and she had a wedding planner who, you know, was very good -- had the whole run of show! Within five minutes the whole thing was out the window! You know, so there's this illusion of control, especially with weddings that we have. And oftentimes, it's those things that go off the rails that are the most memorable. 

Lauren: I learned years ago as a kid in elementary school, you have to have conflict in your story or else that story is not interesting. If everything was even keeled and easygoing, you wouldn't have a good story anymore.

Michael: Yeah! Well, it's interesting, that idea of conflict because É and again, we'll use weddings as an example. I don't know that many weddings would have dramatic conflict but they do have tension, which in my mind is much more interesting. Because the conflict is a fight. And there's only one thing that can happen with a fight, somebody wins and somebody loses. 

But if I'm in tension, now there's all sorts of different things that can happen, right? We can reach a compromise, that the tension can snap and everybody goes flying off in all different directions, but a story that's about the easing of tension is much more interesting than one that's about someone winning and someone losing, right?

So there are times at an event like a wedding where there's definite tension between a bride and a mother, or the groom and the parents-in-law or whatever. And it's so beautiful, to watch that tension often dissolve as the ceremony unfolds and as the relationship is witnessed in its new form. Those are beautiful stories of people coming together in the interest of something greater, that something greater being the marriage. 

Lauren: Absolutely. And speaking to sort of those easing of tensions, or even just the existence of tensions, you said weddings were a rite of passage. How do you believe, based in storytelling that, you know, tying into our wedding outfits which is what we focus on here, how do you believe that ties in with how a bride or a groom or a person getting married relates their outfit to their story in the ritualistic sense of that?

Michael: So it's really interesting, because I don't know how many people are actually conscious of this, right? But if you think way back in time, anthropologically, we dressed differently for rituals, we paint our bodies for rituals, as humans. Thousands of years ago, this is what we did. And so you can trace the lineage of the wedding dress and the tuxedo and the two hours or four hours in makeup to these really ancient ways of being when it comes to rites of passage because we want to honor that ritual by dressing ourselves differently. 

Now, I would wager that 99% of brides who go shopping for a wedding dress aren't thinking about that at all, and yet it's still operating under the surface. So it's really interesting, when you look at it through that lens, to look at the choices that we make when we're choosing a dress or when we're choosing bridesmaids outfits, or a tuxedo, or a suit, like whatever É what's going into those choices? What are we wanting to project? What image feels important to us? 

And it's often when we're making those choices they don't even feel like choices. So often É I said I say often like I talked to a lot of brides about this. I don't. I've talked maybe two. So the two that I've talked to when they find the right dress, it's not like they choose it. There's a sense sometimes that ÒOh, it's just right.Ó

And that's always interesting to look at. Like, what is it about that particular dress that felt, right? Because it's always in those moments where we don't feel that we're making a decision that we're revealing some really deep truths about ourselves, about who we are in the world. 

So yeah, I'm curious. Have you picked out your wedding dress yet? And then how does that track with your experience of it?

Lauren: I have actually. I actually have, shockingly, two wedding dresses in a bizarre twist. Not both for my wedding day, to make it more interesting, and what you just described, I think, maybe commercially would be considered the Say Yes to the Dress moment. But to be more, you know, psychologically focused, it is that aha moment. That, ÒOh, I feel that this was rightÓ moment. 

And not every bride gets that, not every groom gets that when they put on their outfit for the first time. But I think a lot of them do. And I think it really does tie back to that underlying, unconscious idea of ritual that you were talking about, which is we almost are programmed to want to find that feeling. And so even if we don't find it, we're continually searching for it. We're continually looking for it.

Michael: I love what you just said because there are so few places in our culture where we have ritual. And a wedding is one of the few we have remaining, right? Where there is a structure É thereÕs a whole wedding industry. And it's such a beautiful thing that exists at such a deep level. And at the same time, like you said, there's the commercial version of it is say Yes to the Dress, which really flattens the sacredness of that moment of choosing your ritual, garb. Right? 

And so, underneath Say Yes to the Dress is a really complex, rich, beautiful human ancient process. And it's really fun to tap into that. And I wonder what would happen if brides and grooms and couples and their families entered into the search for the outfit or the search for the venue with that deeper level of awareness that they are entering into a deep ancient story of ritual. And how much more vivid and beautiful the whole process could be.

Lauren: It would be in my opinion, more É more centered, I guess, and less focused, focusing on the wedding industrial complex of perfection, and then honing instead on what's perfect for us, which is so integral in having the closest to a stress-free experience that you can have.

Michael: Yeah! And I love that the word that came up, as you were saying that was grounded, like a really grounded, present way of navigating into it. 

Lauren: Yeah!

Michael: If when I get married, like that's very much the process that I would want to enter into.

Lauren: A lot of people have trouble in grounding themselves in this process, because of the wedding industrial complex, because of society, because that unconscious ritual is again, unconscious, not everyone's thinking about it. How do we manage that as people and understand and embrace the fact that our stories, whether they're weddings or not, are living and breathing and are ours? How do you feel like people can get in touch with that?

Michael: That's a really big question! And I think the first part was embedded in your question, which is awareness, right? Awareness that the wedding industrial complex, which is not a phrase I've ever heard but now I love it, is designed in a way to make sure that we stay as ungrounded as possible so that we don't notice how much money we're spending. Right? So they want to keep us off balance, because that's the way it's designed. 

So the first thing to do is become aware that, ÒOh, this is my wedding.Ó And even if it's within a very strict religious setting, right, a religious ritual, it's still yours. And there's still room for choice in there. And so a lot of it is bringing awareness of all of the stories out there that are trying to compete with your own inner knowing. 

And then the other one is a process that I would say probably expands way beyond the wedding and way beyond all that of ÒWho am I in the world anyway? What's the story that wants to live through me? Am I in alignment with that?Ó And that's where you get into the world of, you know, meditation and contemplative practices. For some people, that process looks like psychotherapy, right? But anything that brings us into greater connection with ourselves.

A lot of the work I do with people is around helping them reconnect with themselves simply so they can connect more deeply with the world. And so they can live with a greater sense of purpose. 

There is no one path to that. And generally, once you're open to it, a path appears and then you get to decide whether you're going to walk down it. And some people do. Some people are like, ÒOh, thank goodness, this is what I wanted!Ó And other people go like, ÒNope, too scary. Gonna go back over here for a while!Ó Right? And so there's no, there's no one answer to it. But it does very much start with bringing awareness.

Lauren: Bringing awareness also sort of ties into something that I've been thinking about as someone who's been planning a wedding at this point for almost three years, is that there are moments where for me as the bride, I've been given a lot of responsibility, just societally. But then beyond that, I want the responsibility. So I'm sort of at odds with myself sometimes, because I've been told I need to do certain things but then I'm also a control freak! So you know, there's this conflict of interest almost there. 

And then even further, when you were talking about who am I in the world, there's a lot of that and people getting married, where half of the time you're saying, ÒOkay, I just need to do this for me, I need to do this for my spouse, we're doing this for usÓ but then you're also trying to do it for your family, and you're trying to do it for the world. 

So those stories of who you are and what you want and how you're going to achieve it sometimes are conflicting, because you're constantly trying to balance ÒWho am I to want, you know, a seven-tier cake?Ó but also ÒI want a seven-tier cake!Ó like cuz I like cake! You know, it's not because I'm materialistic, but because I like cake, you know? And I'm just making that up! I don't even have a cake for my wedding. But É

Michael: I want a seven-layer wedding cake! That sounds delicious!

Lauren: I'm trying to É I guess my general consensus there is do you have any opinions on that conflict? There's an inner conflict, but it's also an external conflict. Because it's a story you're sharing with the world at the same time.

Michael: Yeah. It's almost impossible to resolve! So part of it, again, is cultivating a sense of comfort with discomfort. So when we find ourselves in conflict or tension just acknowledging, ÒOh, this is uncomfortable!Ó and moving out of that reactive place that leads to fighting. 

So it's one thing if I get triggered É let's say my mom triggers me and I go, like ÒMom, you always do that!Ó Now, suddenly, we're in conflict, as opposed to just noticing, ÒOh okay, I'm getting triggered right now.Ó Well, now I have a choice. Once I've brought awareness, now I have a choice how I'm going to respond. And again, very easy to say, not easy to do!

The other thing that can be really useful, and this is É goes into the realm of kind of the esoteric a little bit, but there's an idea when you're working with a ritual, whether it's a wedding or whatever, that the ritual has its own consciousness. So it can be really interesting to look at the wedding as something that is wanting to be born through you, through your fiancŽ, through the event. And something that can be really useful is instead of trying to figure it out with my mind is to simply ask the wedding what it needs. 

I usually have about 20 small stones nearby, so I'll just pick up a rock. And I'll say, okay, the spirit of the wedding of the spirit of the event is in this rock right now. And instead of trying to do it internally, I just say like, ÒHey, what do you need?Ó Because I don't É I'm, I'm getting a lot of information from a lot of different sources, and I've lost connection with you as the event itself. And almost always you'll get a remarkably fast and interesting response. Right? And then it's up to you whether or not you want to believe that's real. But it's always interesting information.

Lauren: I think that's an amazing way to put it. And I think for anyone who maybe doesn't have that affiliation with stones, which I totally understand, personally, but I think to take it a step further where you had compared meditation to psychotherapy, I think you could say it's just asking ÒWhat can I do to make this move forward in a positive way?Ó Instead of saying, ÒWhat do I need to do?Ó Instead of centering it around you, say ÒWhat does it need from me?Ó

Michael: Yeah, and how can I serve this ritual? And it just takes so much of the pressure off? Yeah, it's so much, It's so much easier!

Lauren: No, I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it. In your book Story Maps, you discuss what you describe as a way of finding tools for the modern seeker. What tools would you recommend to maybe an engaged couple, a newly married couple, what they should use to create a more collaborative experience not only within their wedding, but moving forward for their lives together?

Michael: Lots of wine?! And other than that, I mean, the most powerful tool, there's two that come up. One is really cultivating the, the skill of deep listening, right? Listening from a place not of needing to respond, but of wanting to connect. Especially for people who are just married or going through any kind of transition, one of the first things that goes out the window is that ability to listen, right?

And then the other one is the most simple thing. We do it 20,000 times a day, and most of us aren't even aware of it, is breathing. Right? When things get heated, when we come into tension, just go, ÒHey, let's take three deep conscious breaths together, and then see where we are.Ó And that simple act of breathing slowly and consciously brings us back into alignment with ourselves and often with each other. 

And so that's something when I work with couples, that's the first thing that we do. You know, I'll look at them and they're just like, not breathing because they don't want to be talking to me about their relationship. They're there because they're in crisis, not because it's fun. And so they're, you know, they're, they're tense, I'll just say, ÒHey let's before we start talking about stuff, let's just take five deep breaths together.Ó And the energy between them completely transforms. So those are the two tools, listening and breathing, keeping it really, really simple. Because there's enough going on in the world. We don't need to layer other things on top of it. 

Lauren: No I think the simplicity of breathing and, and listening are in and of themselves, as you just said, not easy. They're not simple. So starting off with something so simple, is so as we've already said, grounded, you have to ground it before you can, you know, build a mountain and climb it together.

Michael: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And sometimes we focus so much on the mountain that we forget where we are, right? We're like, ÒOh my goodness, look up on that mountain! There's a there's a really tricky patch, how are we going to get there?Ó and you missed the fact that you're in this really beautiful spot right now. And if you just took the moment to breathe and to listen and reflect, everything changes.

Lauren: I would love to know because you focus in on breathing for couples, what's the magic of breathing? You hear so often that ... I mean, obviously, it keeps us alive. But there's so many people who say ÒOkay, center back to breathing, center back to breathing.Ó But in your opinion, why is that so well-known beyond the fact that it keeps us alive?

Michael: I mean, part of it is the fact that keeps us alive, right? So when we breathe consciously, we become more aware of our life force, we become more aware that we're alive. Right? Because we're breathing. And then just physiologically, when you breathe consciously and slowly, you're allowing your nervous system to settle. 

For some people that settling is really uncomfortable because we're used to running at such a high rate and so it feels weird to slow down. So maybe that even that might be too triggering, That takes practice. But ideally when we slow down our breathing, our heart rate slows, our body starts to release the hormone oxytocin, which is our empathy hormone, right? We can come into a greater sense of presence with what's going on around us. We reconnect with our senses, because when we enter that state of being triggered, the first thing that goes is our breathing. 

When people are scared or nervous, their breathing goes up into their chest. And when you're breathing in your chest, really, you're operating from here, which is less than a third of our capacity. So we lose, like taste goes away, our ability to think through complex problems goes away, and we're dissociated, we're disconnected from ourselves. So the magic of breathing is really the magic of connection. It's, again, incredibly simple, and not easy at all.

Lauren: It's, it's tying that physiological to the psychological. And being who I am going to turn it back a little bit to the outfits that I feel like, perfectly relates, because it's the physiological of putting something on, that changes the psychological, and how we're going to share that with the world. And my next question is, do you feel like it's necessary to physiologically change yourself in order to psychologically be ready to walk down an aisle?

Michael: I think it helps. Anything with ritual helps, right? The pope doesn't walk around with a big hat all the time. It's only for rituals. And the reason itÕs there is it signifies a change, right? So if we want this event to be elevated, in some way, and to stand out, then yeah, there wants to be this ritualistic putting on of a different garment than what we would normally wear. 

And the more intention we put into putting on the dress or putting on the suit, or the whatever É whatever you choose to get married in, the more intention you put into it, then the richer the experience will be. Because it's not just a dress, it's not just a suit, it is an indication that we are entering into a sacred deep space. So is it necessary to do that? No. Does it make it a lot easier to get into that space? Absolutely.

I've loved this conversation because it really highlights that weddings are really a crucible for all sorts of different things to come up, right? So any places where we're unsure of who we are unsure in our relationship with ourselves or our partner, will be thrown into relief, right? And that's why in a lot of traditions, they require you to have couples counseling as you prepare for a wedding. Because it's a huge step. And it's gonna bring up all your stuff and it's always better to deal with that with help. 

You know, you mentioned my book Story Maps and the intention behind that was to provide that sort of assistance for folks who are really looking for their path, or on the path and maybe got a little turned around and lost. They're like, ÒI lost the path. How do I find it again?Ó And so all there's all sorts of different tools on in that book that can really gently and simply help people rediscover and reorient to their path. 

I wrote it for individuals, but I'm realizing couples could do it together, could go through it and read chapters and share them with each other and have really rich conversations. Yeah, I'm really grateful for this conversation! I actually haven't given this much thought to weddings and wedding dresses and suits ever so this is, this has been really fascinating!

Lauren: Oh, I I'm so happy that you were here! That's a great idea that Story Maps could be sort of like a part of the ritual for a newly married couple or about to be married couple. I think that's fantastic!

So kind of going back to how you communicate with each other, you're sharing stories with each other so you exist in the three sort of realms of story, what truths do your outfits say about each other? And how do they communicate to each other in a story? How can their outfits communicate story wise to each other?

Michael: I love that. And I don't know if this was the intention of the question but where my mind immediately went, is that these outfits also have a consciousness of their own. So what are the stories that they are communicating. Eveb without people in them, what are these outfits and the histories of these outfits? 

Where did the threads in the dress come from? Where did the threads in the suit come from? And what it's no coincidence that these two garments ended up in the same place at the same time with these two people. And so what's that story? And what richness does that add to the wedding? 

It's such a beautiful thing to think about, right? This idea that these garments are on their own journey as well. And what's their story and how do those stories dance with each other in the lead up and during and after the wedding? That was a great question! So fun to think about!

Lauren: And I love your answer! And I think it's a beautiful thing to think about because I've had guests on this podcast who have thrifted, or second hand had their gowns. So that just extends the story even further that what you're saying is that these outfits have a life of their own past the wedding, I mean, they can even É and even if they don't get passed down to another person, they get preserved in a closet and reworn again for a daughter or for a son or for you know, the people that they're passed down on to. YouÕre so right, that they do have their own   -- their own lives, their own stories.

Michael: Yeah. And they hold those stories. So they almost become like totems. So if somebody gets a dress custom made, then É or even tailored, then the tailorÕs story goes into that with each time that needle goes through it, right? And so they become these, these holders of these beautiful, sacred narratives. It's such a powerful way to think about that. Much more than just like ÒI got this dress on sale at the wedding dress expo. Yay!Ó Right. It's much more interesting than that.

Lauren: Absolutely. And I guess to wrap up my last question is, so sort of a fun one, what would you wear to your wedding if you were to be married? And what do you think it would say about you? And what do you think you would say about it?

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I should have anticipated this question given what podcast this is, but I didn't! So let's see! You know, as I'm sort of closing my eyes, and I'm seeing what wants to come in and what comes in is just like really comfortable, loose fitting clothes because this wedding as it's occurring in my imagination is in a beautiful space of nature. And so we are barefoot and wearing just very like natural fibers, natural clothing that was made by one of our dear friends who is a customer and a designer. So it's infused with all of this É all of this love.

And it's just very comfortable and flowing because that ideally would be the feeling of the wedding and the feeling of the relationship, is like aligned and connected and open. This is crazy! I'm getting emotional thinking about this. How dare you! Good job!

Lauren: That's what I'm here for! It's so lovely that we got to talk and there's one question that we ask a lot of our guests, which is what would your dress say or what would your outfit say to you if it could talk? And we kind of just revisited that question, but in a very real conversation psychologically. And I always say, ÒOh, this is such a strange question!Ó but it doesn't feel like a strange question anymore after this conversation! 

Michael: No, not at all right? Like, what if that's real? How much more interesting is the world? Yeah, I love that! I love that that question is alive for you and now maybe it's a little more accessible. That's awesome!

Lauren: Now I feel bad for making fun of it this whole time! Well again, thank you so much for being on the podcast Michael! And for our listeners, if they want to find out more about you, about your book, or anything else, where can they find all that information?

Michael: Yeah, so two places. One is my website, which is www.storyandspirit.org. Or if you're on social media, I'm on Instagram @storyandspirit. Those are the two best, easiest places to get in touch.

Thanks for listening! Check out our website, choosingyourreflection.com where we unravel the mystery of the perfect wedding outfit. Check back next week when another beautiful soul takes on the journey of choosing their reflection. And donÕt forget to like, share, and subscribe!