Clara: Hello, and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara. Dani: And I'm Dani. Clara: And today, we're talking about episode 201, Zoey's Extraordinary Return. Written by Austin Winsberg and directed by John Terlesky. Before we dive in, why don't you read us the episode summary, Dani? Dani: The description listed on IMDb is a little sparse, as these things often are. It says, "Zoey returns to the world after an extended time away and discovers that a lot has changed at work and in her personal life in her absence." Clara: No shit. Dani: I did think that three weeks was a long time to stay away. It was three weeks, right? Clara: I don't think three weeks is a long time to stay away after your parent dies. I don't know. Dani: I don't personally think it's a long time, I think that's proper, but in the American work world. Clara: Because #capitalism? Dani: Yeah. It would be very rare that anyone would be allowed that. Clara: Working in the tech industry, there really tend to be better benefits around that, but you're definitely right, that most folks who do not have that kind of advantage are not going to be able to get that time. We'll get into that, all of that and we'll get into the weirdness of having to work while you're grieving soon, but first, I just want to get your overall thoughts on this episode. What'd you think, Dani? Dani: I loved this return episode, it was very strong. It had, I feel like, just enough emotional gut punches. I don't know, it was a really good blend of bringing us back into the head space of all these different characters, and the emotional arc of it, as well as it still remained incredibly funny, which the show does very well. Clara: Yeah. It's very entertaining while also dealing with some really heavy stuff. Dani: Which is our thing. Clara: Exactly. I really liked it too, and you and I had talked earlier this week about our hopes for season two in our little trailer episode that will hopefully go out tomorrow. And already, I think we've had a lot of them realized in this episode. You wanted to explore more of the relationships since season two, which they did not waste any time in that. Dani: Nope. Clara: And I mentioned wanting to see Zoey's family try to navigate communication after his death and see how they negotiated that. And already, we've gotten bits of each of those things, seen some of those challenges. And also, while we don't yet know for sure that Harvey Guillén's character, George, is gay, I have a feeling you might get your queer more wish granted with him and some other things. Dani: I was secretly hoping already that he would have a thing with Tobin. Clara: I would appreciate that. You are a big fan of Enemies To Lovers, so. Dani: I sure am. I liked all those things too. And I liked that we did get some answers right off the bat, things that we were looking forward to. I noticed that a lot of people have been up to series regular in the second season, so I think we'll be seeing a lot more of those characters, even Tobin and Leif. But their respective actors have been up, same with the brother and his wife. We'll definitely be seeing a lot more of everyone, which I think we'll get more relationship stuff, for sure. Clara: You had also mentioned being curious about what Peter Gallagher's role would be in this season, given that his character, Mitch, is now dead. And I think the video testimonials that we saw in this episode are hints to one way they might be doing that. You had mentioned flashbacks, but what I really appreciated about them doing the testimonials was that it felt very organic. That's one thing about flashbacks is, they can take you out of the primary experience or out of the character's perspective. And doing it as those testimonials still allowed us to see it how Zoey is seeing it and how David's seeing it and how Maggie's seeing it. I don't know how long they can pull off organic insertions of Peter Gallagher like that, but- Dani: Yeah. I actually read it, an interview with the creator saying that he really doesn't wish to bring him in as a ghost-like figure or anything past what he did last season, because there's already too much of a magic element. He's like, "I don't think people could buy another one." Although you could totally relate it to her psyche, but it is interesting. Clara: Yeah. It's such an interesting point that he doesn't want to do it because he doesn't want it to be magical. I can see other reasons not to do it too, which is that like, if you really want to deal with her grief over him being gone, then he has to be gone, right? There can only be so much intrusion from him as a specter. There has to be some grounding in reality in that particular element. So then, of course, the other big thing that I think is just part of my overview is the musical numbers. It's a musical show and there are musical numbers, and the ones in this one are definitely epic. So deep dive? Dani: Yeah, let's do it. Clara: All right. The main theme of this episode is, I think, best described by the Last heart song, the transition from grieving back to living and to carrying on. There's a lot of different plot points, but there's five main arcs that I think we should cover. One, Zoey returning to work and to life. Two, George trying to push through his hazing and his new workplace, but also just introducing him as a character. Three, Mo, Max and Simon's new found friendship and the Mo and Max venture that we get a hint of. Four, the kiss between Zoey and Max and that relationship. And five, the testimonials and the way that Zoey, Maggie, David and Emily move forward as a family. Clara: So let's start with that first one, Zoey returning to work and reconnecting with her friends. I felt the show did a good job of illustrating how disconnected from our everyday life and our work ambitions can be from the emotional experience of grieving. I remember my grandmother died when I was a week or two into my first big-kid job. So I really felt I had to show up and to push through and all of those things, but I was so discombobulated that I left my laptop at home and didn't realize until I had already driven an hour to work. I feel that's something that you can probably relate to, right? I mean, you were working when your grandfather died. Dani: Yeah. When my grandfather died and I had to go home probably about halfway through my shift. I couldn't be there. But for me, it's even every year, on the anniversary of his death, it's hard for me to work. Clara: Yeah. And I think that makes a lot of sense, but it's like what you were saying about American capitalism doesn't really make room. It doesn't really make room for that kind of emotional experience. We don't get the chance to properly grieve and to keep grieving because grief is not just a one-time thing. Dani: Yeah. I literally only got three days of bereavement pay, that's it. So it's like, if you want to take more time, feel free, but you're not going to get paid for it. Clara: Yeah. Which of course, that's not workable. That forces you into a position where, yeah, you do have to work because you got to pay for rent and other bills. And of course, I was also thinking about this in the context of two days ago, there was a coup attempt and all of America was still working. I don't know if you saw this tweet, there's this tweet going around where somebody was like, "My coworker just asked me if we were still supposed to work through a coup and it's the most American thing I've ever heard." Dani: It's quite American. I mean, we're a fucking laughing joke already to the rest of the world, but I think it's much worse now. Clara: Yeah. I mean, there is this weird expectation that you keep your work separate from the rest of your life and vice versa. And it breaks down on a personal level when there is something big going on, you might be at work, but there's no way that you're just in that head space. I don't know. I was curious how you felt about that in the way that they handled it. Dani: I mean, first of all, the idea that you can actually keep your personal life completely separate from work is just asinine. I actually liked the way that they handled that story, from her to force herself to leave and how she has a breakdown at some point. I really liked how Joan was like, "Okay, I pushed a little too hard," and she apologized for it. I wish more workplaces would be that, but. Clara: Well, and I wondered if she would have done that if they didn't have a personal relationship that they developed over the last year. Would she have done that with Tobin? Dani: Probably not, but I'm not sure. She does seem like she has a caring side for sure. But yeah, she doesn't have a personal relationship with Zoey, so it's hard to say. Clara: And her asking in the first place, that is reflecting the other part of her that is just like, get things done, go, go, go. All business all the time. Dani: And while we're on it, I just want to mention how sad I am that Lauren Graham will no longer be on the show. Clara: Do we know that? Did you read that, or? Dani: Yeah, she tweeted about it too. She was filming another show that ended up being pushed back due to COVID. And so because of that, she was unable to... Well, basically, it was a Disney Plus show, so I'm pretty sure Disney's contract would always trump anyone else's. Clara: That's a bummer. Dani: Unfortunately, yeah. She's gone gone. Originally, they always planned on giving Zoey the promotion, but they went about it in a different way. Clara: That's a bit of a bummer. Yeah. I've enjoyed seeing Lauren Graham on that. Dani: Yeah. And obviously, we're both big Gilmore Girls fans, so seeing her again on our TVs is really great. But yeah, I'm just going to miss her and that relationship because there really aren't that many female-female relationships on the show. Clara: I did think it was interesting that Zoey said she hadn't been hearing heart songs at all after her dad died. And there's so many different possible explanations for this. For me, I think the most likely one is just that she's too overwhelmed by her own grief and she's blocking out everything else. There are points in grief or depression where you just can't see past your own nose, and it's not a selfishness thing, it's just you are so stuck in your own reality and your own perspective because it's as intense as it is. So I think I can see that award against a certain amount of empathy and necessary self-involvement because you have to be to move on. Clara: But just one counterpoint to my own theory that I just laid out. That isn't how it works in season one, because like when she got super overwhelmed and season one with all of her grief, that's when it literally burst out of her in song in that boardroom. Dani: That's true. I'm actually a little bit surprised that she didn't have a burst-out moment when she did have her break down in the middle of the episode. But yeah, there seems to be a little bit of... I don't know, there's no conclusive answers to how the powers exactly work. And I think that they definitely use that to their advantage. I did think she was really overwhelmed by grief. It sounds she rarely even left the house, so even being able to hear heart songs from other people would be pretty hard. Clara: Yeah. Nobody is around her except for her family, and they're all going through the same thing. I also thought it was interesting... It is a little weird that we never get to see Zoey without her powers from our perspective. For her, it seems a big thing. But I did find it interesting that the show telegraphed it in the season one finale. I didn't think about that until I was reading your notes where you asked, like, "Why do you think the music died?" Because of course the song they had at the funeral, the last heart song she's heard between these things was American Pie, which is the day the music died. Dani: Yes. Which is hence why. Clara: Yeah. Yeah, I figured. But it made me think also about the connection between her musical powers and her dad and how strong that is. When he sings a heart song to her in that first episode, when it sings True Colors, that is the first moment when she accepts the powers as a gift and not just a burden. I can see her thinking that now that he's gone, they might go away, that they might be tied to him. Dani: I mean, you could take that as like a lot of people believe, energy of someone who's passed to lingers and they're still there. So you could see that as him still being there in some way. Or, I know Mo at some point in the episode calls Zoey out and it's like, "Well, maybe you need to listen. They came back for a reason." Clara: And I do think that has been Mo's role in a lot of ways. He's the one who's like... I keep thinking about, in the very first episode when he asks Zoey what music she listens to, and she says, "You wouldn't have heard the band," and then puts in her headphones as if listening to a podcast. Putting in your headphones to block out the world kind of thing. And so, a lot of what Mo does is to forcibly open Zoey up to the world around her. sometimes for her own good, sometimes for other people's good. But I always think that's really interesting. And of course, Zoey's powers are not really gone, not forever, not even for like 10 minutes of the episode. Clara: So, as she starts to settle into work, we see the heart part of heart song work its way back into her life with George. I'm skipping over the Hello Dolly, we'll come back to it when we talk about heart songs more generally. But I do think now's a good time for us to talk about George, played by the amazing Harvey Guillén. What did you think of his character? Dani: I mean, obviously I was super happy to see Harvey in something again. I mean, we do have what we do in the shadows, which is also amazing. But as people might come to find out, we did have a Magician's podcast before, it was our first podcast, and he was a pretty important character in the show, at least to us. Clara: Well, that's because we came from the books, right? Dani: It's true. And I actually felt like, I don't know, his character reminded me of Benedict in some ways, maybe a more emotionally advanced. Clara: In tune. Yeah. Dani: Yeah. In tune. Clara: You put it in your notes that he reminded you of Olaf. And I was like, "Oh, that's so insightful." Because he reminded me of a friend of mine who I have previously said reminds me of Olaf. Dani: I think it's a little bit the cadence of his voice, but also just like when he asks her for a hug and then he's like- Clara: Please love me. Dani: Oh, man. It reminds me of when Olaf asks for hugs. Warm hugs. Clara: He has that vibe of somebody who really wants to fit in and to be loved and to give love too. Dani: Yeah, he seems very nurturing. Like immediately Zoey leans into the hug, he gives him a much bigger. Clara: Yes. I loved that. I loved it so much because it's so hard to be the new guy, you really do just want to fit in and get through things and get past that awkward period. And for George, that's clearly at least doubled. But I loved that he is also brave in that way. He told her how he felt and he asked her for what he needed, and it turned out to be something that she needed and had been having trouble accepting from other people in her life. Like all the times that Simon in this episode was like, "I'm here for you," and she was like, runaway. What she needed in some ways was for it to be mutual. To be able to help somebody and be helped back. Dani: Yeah. I do think a big reason she's apprehensive towards Simon is also, I feel like she has made up in her mind about Max, but also just he does come off very overbearing in this episode towards her. Clara: In some ways, I felt like that overbearing, this was also him... This is the thing that they've connected over, so he wants to restart their connection and the only way he can think to do it is to be there for her about her dad. And while yes, that is a great thing and something that she needs, is somebody to be there for her, because that is the source of their romantic connection, it's also very fraught for her. Taking him up on that would mean things, or would, I think, seem to mean things to her, at least. Dani: We can definitely get more into that when we talk about relationships unfolding for Zoey later. Clara: Yes, back to George. Dani: Let's come back to George. Clara: Yes. His speech to Zoey really hit me right before the hug, when he wells up telling her that little acts of kindness mean a lot to him. And it made me really want to know his story on a deep level. Because like we were talking about before, there's this idea that your work and the rest of your life should be separate in the American corporate world. And in the tech world, where I work, there's all this talk about how you should bring your whole self to work, but it's bullshit. It's just a way of telling people to give 110%,it's not really about like, "Bring your whole self," It's, "Bring the self, bring everything that makes you productive." Clara: And so I really liked the way that this show throws a wrench in that because Zoey's power had forced her into taking an interest in people around her in a way she might not otherwise. And that means that she sees people like George, who she's never met and who she might not take an interest in otherwise, at least not for a while, she's forced to see them as whole people. And they ended up seeing her that way too. I really liked that she has to see him, I really liked that he also imposes himself on her, and that he makes a point of appreciating that act of kindness. Clara: I don't know if rewarding it is the right word, but he makes a point of like, "This means something, let me tell you that it means something." Dani: Yeah. He was obviously welling up when he says it. I also really want to know, what's the story? I have a feeling it has something to do with maybe depression or suicidal tendencies. That's really what it made me think of, basically saying it's the little acts of kindness that keep me going. So of course, 100%, it hit me in the feels. It was definitely one of the moments that made me cry a little bit. But yeah, I want to see more there. And I do think Zoey, it is great that she has a power that forces her to see other people. Clara: Yes. I want to talk about this some more, but I'm going to pin it for when we go back to season one, because I think there's even more evidence there. I think there's some interesting stuff to say about her being, not just a fairly closed off person, but also working in the tech industry in San Francisco where there's all this gentrification and where a lot of the dynamic is that people who work in the tech industry are just doing their own thing into themselves and not really paying attention or engaging with the communities that were already there, that they have invaded. Clara: And I think there's a really interesting point to make about how her power forces her into a different dynamic and it affects her professional life and her personal life and her everything. I'll save that for later. Back to George again. I know that you are really into astrology and star charts, this is understatement of the year. So, because I feel there is such big energy coming off George, even in just a handful of lines, I wanted to ask if you have any thoughts about his sun, moon and rising signs. Dani: Well, I'm sure this comes from the fact that I put in my notes that I think Zoey is a Capricorn. We'll talk about that probably at some point. But yeah, I feel he's definitely a water sign, maybe a Pisces.Pisces always want to be liked and they have an affinity more for creative pursuits, but they also do like to be liked to a fault, which he clearly exhibits. He's also very clearly emotionally dripping character. I'd say maybe a Taurus rising because he has some Taurus energy going on there. Clara: Tell me what you mean. I don't know Taurus as well as the other earth signs. Dani: Well, Taurus is for one very driven, but they also have a tendency to be a pushover. You can very easily get them to concede things, but there are things that they're very stubborn about. We don't know him well enough to see if that's true. Clara: Well, though, I think there's something to be said for that stubbornness maybe being behind him being a little bit more forceful about approaching Zoey, right? Dani: True. Clara: That could be a stubbornness of sorts. Dani: I do want to say also he might have a fire moon because fire is also known to be very emotional. It just comes out in different ways. So I was thinking maybe a Leo moon- Clara: He definitely has some Leo energy. Dani: ... because he very there and present and the way he dresses. Clara: Seemingly extroverted. Dani: Yeah, he's pretty extroverted. So I want to go out on a limb and say that he's got a little bit of everything going on in is his chart. Clara: I like that. I like that. I think that's a really good, a very insightful first bit. Definitely, I got water sign off of the sun sign, and I definitely see the Leo for sure. I'm glad to explain the Taurus because I think that makes sense too. All right. So that covers work in George. So our next little arc is this developing friendship, developed friendship between Mo, Max and Simon. Was that a surprise for you? Dani: I don't know if I would say surprising. I remember them maybe vibing a bit at the funeral, if I remember correctly. Clara: I think Max and Simon were. Yeah. Dani: Yeah. I mean, Max and Simon, I feel always had the potential to be friends. They both work in the tech world, they share common ground. That's, I feel like always my dream go-to situation in any love triangle, is that they just don't hate each other, because I hate that. I hate when they're just like, "Oh, we just don't get along like that like Jacob." Awkward kind of dynamic- Clara: Oh yeah. Edward / Jacob. Dani: ... where they're also two very different characters. Whereas that's not the case with Max and Simon. I feel like they have a lot more in common and I feel her- Clara: Sports. Dani: Sports. I feel that choice to Zoey is probably harder because then it's not they're polar opposites or anything. It's surprising in that it's not usual for a fictional media to portray two people that are in any given love triangle as being friends. I feel like then Mo being friends with them doesn't surprise me either because he really cares about Zoey, and so I feel he would want to know each of her perspective interests in that way. Clara: And most nosy, right? Dani: Most nosy. A little bit of meddle-some. Maybe he went about it in a way that it was like, "Oh, maybe I can help Zoey figure out who to choose." Clara: Speaking of that, do you think that Max and Simon are going to stay friends once Max starts dating Zoey out in the world? Dani: I think they'll try. I don't think it will be successful, but I think that they will actually try. Clara: Well, I mean, I think with Max and Mo starting a business together, if I were Simon, I would definitely feel left out with everything that's happening and probably a little hurt, especially the way that Zoey has gone about it. Because even before this, she had coffee one on one with Max the morning she went back to work, and then she avoided Simon at work basically. So she hasn't talked to him since her dad died. She's presumably going to reject him romantically in favor of somebody who's become his friend. And then that friend is going into business with another friend, that's a lot to handle and I can see him getting really upset and trying to hold it in. But of course, Zoey's going to see it anyway. Dani: That's true. And he also is the only one not aware of her magical powers at this point. Clara: Yeah. I actually had to go back and confirm that. I was like, "I'm pretty sure he doesn't know." How's that going to work? Dani: That was interesting though, that they didn't bring back up the fact that Max knew about it. Clara: Well, they sort of do because of the gift he gives her. Dani: True. True. Clara: I actually think they will be eventually able to stay friends, but I think there's going to be tension in those pieces. I think they're setting up this house of cards where Simon is going to feel really left out and at some point it's going to be a mild explosion. My hope is that, or one possible way out of that is what you said, is to let Simon in on the secret that the rest of them know that gives them some closeness that isn't just around... I mean, it's still around Zoey, but it's not around her dad dying or around romantic interest. Dani: So going to have to be forced to work with them a little bit more, considering she is now his boss. Clara: Oh yeah. That's also a good excuse for not dating him. Dani: That's true. She could definitely come at him with that excuse, although I do think it would be an excuse. Clara: I know she doesn't, I hope she's honest with him. Dani: I just think Simon and Zoey, and I've always thought this, even in season one, that I don't think that romantically they would pan out because I don't think they have enough in common. Their only factor, which she only knew about because of her power is the fact that his father died and hers was going to die, but has now died. And I feel that's just too hard for her. Clara: Yeah. I think you're right. Well, and too hard in general to... Grief can be a basis for a romantic relationship, shared grief. Dani: It's not good though. Clara: No. I think it blows up spectacularly far more often than it works out. The one place where I have felt it's a good cement for a romantic relationship is for Peeta and Katniss in the Hunger Games.. Dani: Because they have that shared trauma. Clara: Yeah. But I think it's so much more. It's not a singular grief, it's a type of experience that so few people have. There's no way to get around that, it's such a huge part of their lives and thing that looms over it... It gives them a lot of shorthand that they couldn't have with other people. Dani: Yeah. And also too, though, Zoey and Simon's grief at the end of the day is also different because he lost his father to something completely different. So there's a lot going on there, but yeah, starting a relationship based around grief, I've kind of been there, a little bit different. One of my ex-boyfriends lost his brother about a couple of days into us dating and it was very hard on our relationship because I had to be there emotionally for him in a way that I don't think I was ready for. It definitely makes me think of that. So that's probably another reason why I can't see them together. I love Simon though. I would love to see him be happy. I think if anything, they should introduce another love interest for him, that would be really good. Clara: Yes, someone who there can be some bond with. I think there's also always the possibility that his ex, is her name Jessica? Dani: Jessica. I think so. Yeah. Clara: That she might come back, that they might try to work things out. I don't know that that's great just because of how they ended. Dani: I also, from what I remember, they were together for a really, really long time. And I think that their relationship was starting to stale anyways and it was one of those, "Well, let's get married because we're comfortable." Clara: Or also, because we've together for so long, this is the next step, this is what we do. Dani: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if that could ever happen. I feel it would have to be a new relationship. Clara: Yeah. It'd be interesting to see what happens. Dani: Maybe he also just needs to be alone for a little bit. Clara: Actually, yes. Simon and therapy. This is my new OTT. Okay. I think we have been already making our way toward Zoey and Max and talking about ships and talking about how their relationship might affect other people. But I think it's worth just asking, how do you feel about them getting together? Because I know you're not a huge fan of friends to lovers. Dani: I'm not. They are a very special case. I would say they're probably one of the only friends to lovers scenarios that I've ever actually been a fan of. And there were definitely moments in season one where I was just like, "Fuck Max." But, I feel he's very easy to forgive and that he does truly care about her. He is okay, at least from what we can tell, being just friends with her. The thing is that she was keeping the power from him, and I don't know, just that betrayal of honesty, I think that's why he was being a dick to her for a little bit because- Clara: It's a hard thing to believe in any context, but telling him after she rejects him, I also might think it was a bullshit excuse and a very bad one. Dani: Yeah. I do think of a reason that I like them as a friends to lovers trope is that it's not one of those situations where they've been best friends their entire fucking life, they've only known each other for four or five years. And I feel contextually, he hasn't been in love with her the entire time. I think it's something that he very recently has figured out. Clara: I agree with that. And I think that the song that they chose for him to come out about that, was very indicative of that. It's, I Think I Love You. It's also by the Partridge family, which is a whole other weird thing. But it did feel he was coming to that realization. Maybe he'd had a little bit of a crush, but he was like, "Eh, this is not a good idea," whatever. Dani: Yeah. I think it's her having genuine feelings for Simon and acting on those that made him realize that, "Maybe I do have feelings for her." And I think the thing that's messed up about it is that she knew about them and then proceeded to push him away to protect herself obviously, and their friendship, which is a very fine thing in general if you want to preserve a friendship, but it's just the whole way she went about it that was bad. But I do like them together because I do feel he genuinely cares about her. He just knows her really well. The way that he went about dealing with her grief and giving her space, he very clearly knew exactly how to do that. Clara: I think he started the text chain too. Dani: Probably. And they just have that lovely banter that I'm a huge fan of. And they've always had that since the first episode. Clara: We should talk about ship names. We talked about some yesterday, we ruled out Maui, we ruled out Zach's. You said you've heard Zone Max, which I like, but it sounds like an antidepressant. Dani: Yes. Clara: I thought of another one. Bear with me, it takes a little explaining. If we take the positions of letters in their names and alternate, then we can have Moxy. Dani: I don't know if that's generally a thing that people do with ship names. Clara: But it's okay, we can make our own. Dani: It's cool, but it would be hard to explain every single time even about it. Clara: All right. Well, Moxie ZoMax. We'll feel our way through, which means I will try to convince Dani for an entire season at least. Of course, the other thing about TD love triangles is that they almost never resolve quickly. And you said you read something about why Austin Winsberg chose to resolve this one quickly. Do you want to talk about that? Dani: Yeah. In the interview, which was a post first episode of the season interview that he gave, he was saying that it's just not really realistic because they are all adults. Clara: Whole ass adults. Dani: They're whole ass adults, and at that age, do you generally know what you want. And I think she said to Max, she's had a lot of time to think about it. So I think, it doesn't bode well that she chose Max right off the bat in a TV standpoint because they could totally pull the rug on us at some point, but that's not always the case. There might be stuff that tests their relationship later on, but they might be a pairing that stays together the whole time. That's not completely unheard of, but it is very rare. Clara: Yeah. And to be honest, I think there's no way they're not going to have relationship difficulties, especially given the unequal dynamic of her being able to hear what he's feeling and him not being able to hear that with her. Dani: There's that, and then there's also the fact that he's technically unemployed. I feel that's usually a big problem sometimes for relationships, if they're not 100% pulling their weight. Clara: He has decided to start a business though. I feel like that's- Dani: Yeah. It'll probably be successful, but there's potential that that could... Even that venture could get in the way because there's only so many things you need to do in order to get a business going. Clara: And also he brought up that Mo was Zoey's friend first, and even though Zoey is cool with them being friends and probably wants them to be friends, Mo is also this person who Zoey has a very special relationship with, and having her life mingle that, again, I think Zoey felt like she fit naturally into the whole compartmentalize your life into different things. So I can see that just being a hard adjustment for her to see them working closely together. Dani: I think the thing that was hard for Zoey is just the fact that no one had told her. Mo had clearly hung out with her a couple of times, so at that point, they were already hanging out. So the fact that he didn't say something to Zoey, I think is where the hurt and shock comes from, but I don't think she minds all that much because they are all adults. And I think that's something that I really appreciate in the show is that- Clara: No middle school drama? Dani: Regardless of this crazy ass magical premise, they're still act adults at the end of the day. I really liked that. In the interview though he just said that it's just not really realistic or an adult thing to generally actually have loved triangles in real life. Clara: Well, I hope the network lets him get away with it. Dani: Honestly. Clara: All right. I think we can close out Zoey and Max for now. Obviously, there'll be plenty more to discuss as the season goes on, which takes us to the last thing I wanted to discuss in this episode, which is the testimonials. And that definitely hit me in the gut because my dad is losing his vocal acuity too. I looked it up because I thought I was right about this, but I wasn't positive. Mitch had PSP and my dad has MSA, they are both under the atypical Parkinson's umbrella along with Lewy Body, Parkinson's with Lewy Bodies. Clara: I told you before, there's differences, but there are a lot of similarities. And for me, one of the hardest things on a personal level of his illness, because it's mostly his illness and his stuff to deal with. But the thing that's been hardest for me is that is him losing his voice because I used to talk all the time, two or three 15 minute conversations throughout the day, and we still talk, but it's harder both for him to speak and for me to understand him. And that's especially been true during the pandemic when our only options are the phone or Zoom most of the time because I haven't been able to see him in person as much as I would like. Clara: And I actually recently started looking because I have a handful of times that I've recorded my dad speaking from before he got his diagnosis. So once in grad school... My dad's a really great storyteller. And so once in my MBA program, we had an assignment, we were doing this oral history or this oral culture assignment. And so we had to get somebody to tell us a story and then analyze it using standard oral storytelling techniques that exist in oral cultures. So I have a recording of him telling me this story about going to the Republican Convention to protest in 1972. And we have this recording from his wedding. Clara: And so recently I was just like, "You know what? I need to know where all these things are. I need to find them all and have them somewhere where they're easily accessible." And it was interesting because since his diagnosis, I started saving his voicemails in mid-2018 when I realized that his voice going was going to be a part of it. So I've thought a lot about wanting those artifacts and wanting to be able to preserve his voice, but it never occurred to me, it never was something that I thought about that it might be really hard to hear him struggle to talk after he passes, because it is also a reminder of this thing that took him from us. Clara: It hasn't taken him from us now, but will be time when you're talking about the future in the past. So that was when it really hit me. And I talked to him briefly before we got on about this because he said him and my stepmother watched the episode last night. He's so funny, he was like, "I wasn't really very moved by it, but Amy was." Amy is my stepmother. And I don't really know how to take that, like how much of it is denial or whatever and how much it's just how whatever his other ways of handling it, he's not too upset by it, but there's so many different symptoms. Clara: And again, for both MSA and PSP, the progressions are different for different people. And also just what matters to you and what affects you more on a personal, emotional level about your symptoms is going to be different from person to person. But yeah, my dad's voice, I don't think I realized how big a part of my life it was and how important, just that sort of, I don't know if you'd call it voice and object, that tool, I guess, was until it started deteriorating. And I think it's important to him too, but he says he's unmoved. Dani: How has he felt about the show, the first season? Clara: He was the one who... We started watching it separately, but he'd bring it up to me. He'd be like, "There's this show, and it's about this person who has a neurological disorder." I think he mostly talks about it in, he sticks to the fact level, like, "Here's, what's happening. It's interesting to see this portrayed." And I think for him, that's helpful, seeing something similar to what he's going through, just be there, whether or not there's a serious emotional resonance, I think it probably makes him feel less alone. And I think he's glad there was awareness around it from the show. Clara: The other thing I wanted to mention around this was that I really liked David's reaction because I feel Zoey and Maggie are both, they are very in their feelings and into withdrawing way. And so it was nice to see somebody whose reaction is different. I love that what he said, he's like, "I couldn't help myself. I had to see it." Dani: Yeah. And you could tell just from the very moment that they brought it up, that there was this things that he was just like, "Oh my God, yes." I feel like he knows, but he can't afford to go into his grief in the same way for when he has to go to work, to support his family since his wife is clearly not working. She makes a couple of jokes about it. Clara: He's probably on maternity leave right now, but he will eventually have to. Dani: It sounded like he was going to work. Clara: He is a lawyer, right? Maybe we'll see. Dani: Also from his appearance... Yeah. He just needs to be there for his family, he knows that he cannot throw himself away over it. And I feel like he just knows that that's just not what his dad would want. Clara: I do feel like it's going to hit them at some point, but I think you're right, he's partly having a delayed reaction because he knows other people need him. That is such a common thing. I think this is a good moment for us to move into our heart songs segment. In this, in this episode, we got four heart songs and then one bonus song, which is the morning song that Mo sings to Zoey to wake her up for her first day back at work. Those songs were, in order of appearance; Rise Up by Andra Day, Andra or Andrew, do you know? Dani: I don't know. Clara: That's the one that Mo sings. Dani: Probably Andra. Clara: That's what I thought. That's the one that Mo sings at the very beginning. Hello, Dolly! from the musical by the same name. Are You Gonna Be My Girl by Jet, Don't Cry Out Loud by Melissa Manchester, and Carry On by Fun. I thought I'd start by asking, which of the heart songs and associated dance numbers was your favorite? Dani: I actually literally only knew two of the songs that were being used in this episode. There is a little bit of that going into the choice, but it's really hard choice for me between the, Are You Gonna Be My Girl by Jet for obvious reasons, which is funny because I actually fuck hate that song. I think it's just such an awful song, but I liked the way that they went about it. But I think I have to go with Carry On by Fun. It made me think a little bit of the final number, last season with everyone singing. I think it's a really good song anyways and it just fits so well for the scene and what's going on. Dani: Also though, Andrew Leeds, he plays David, know that he pulls off. I was like, "What?" Clara: [crosstalk 00:44:58] has a good fall setup. Dani: I did not expect that. I did not expect that, the lead singer of Fun is hard to replicate in general. Clara: Well, and it was interesting the way they did it. They didn't try to do it as a straight cover as much more. Dani: No. Clara: Those were the ones I chose to, I have basically a tie between those. For, Are You Gonna Be My Girl, the whole scene was just so fun and intense, them jumping on the couches and the frenetic camera movements. And I loved when there's that line about her Brown hair and she looks at her red hair. You watched before I did, I remember you texting me that it felt like the cast really gave it all and had been cooped up and this was the, we're just out of quarantined energy. And I don't know if this is the song you were talking about, but it's definitely the one that gave me this vibe the most. Dani: Absolutely. They have the craziest looks in their eyes. And I think it really isn't the energy of everyone, I just feel even in the huge number like Hello, Dolly! it felt like there was so much energy that they all were brilliant with. Clara: They are all vibrating constantly. I felt even the choreography was definitely there, the way that they were performing, but in that number, especially both Skylar Astin and John Clarence Stewart. Both of them do some impressive vocal things. There's this one part of that song where Skylar Astin's vibrato is just crazy. Dani: Anyone who's seen Pitch Perfect knows already that he can sing. And also anyone that watched Crazy Ex-Girlfriend knows that he can sing. So not too much of a surprise. I do love it. I just like how different both of their performing styles are, and it very much showcases in that song. But yeah, the crazy dance moves, I like it. And I liked how casually they spun that line towards the end of, are you going to be my girl? Clara: So what how did you do? Dani: And then it went back into it for a second. Clara: Okay. That one, and then Carry On. Like you said, it's a big important moment for the family and I felt that was a really great song for it. I also really noticed the choreography in that scene because it was very theatrical. They kept freezing in place for different parts. Dani: Yeah. It reminded me of a number that I really liked in season one, the Bastille, Marshmello, Happier. They also had that- Clara: It's just kind of a similar song. Dani: Because they also had that very much like... Anyways, it's a little bit similar. Clara: I felt like it also mirrored for me the experience of moving on or moving through grief in the way that you have those fits and starts, it's not all at once. And so something about that choreography, that really hit me, that they were starting and talking about carrying on and then stopping, so they're literally not carrying on in those moments where they're frozen. So big perhaps to Mandy Moore, who is the choreographer for that one. Dani: Which not be Mandy Moore. Clara: Really? I thought it was the Mandy Moore. Dani: Yeah. I only know because I was shocked when I saw the name Mandy Moore and looked into it and then I was like, "Wait, it's not even- Clara: It would make sense for that Mandy Moore. Dani: Yeah. Because she's also a choreographer and a singer and an actress. Clara: Well, shit, perhaps two other Mandy Moore for that. I also wanted to talk about the song choices more generalized, we'll get through the other ones. I noticed when I started re-watching season one that Mo is always singing a song that is about the morning when he gets up, it's this on the nose thing that he does, which makes sense. But the fact that they were talking about waking up or the morning in the lyrics, I found it really funny, especially because the heart songs are also kind of on the nose, they are an expression of whatever is going on inside. And so I like to think of it as what's going on in the inside of Mo is, he's getting up. Clara: And then Don't Cry Out Loud was such a perfect choice for George. I didn't know that song beforehand. One of the things that my husband has commented on, he's a music human, is that there aren't really new songs in the show. Some of the newest songs are early 2010s, 20 teens, whatever. Dani: They've had a couple like Sucker by the Jonas Brothers was used, and same with Jealous by Nick Jonas, were you used last season. It's very rare. And then Happier by Bastille only came out last year. Clara: But I do like that it's not all the site guy see songs. You are going to learn some new music from this, especially if you're not Gen X. And I think this was one of those cases where it just felt like, oh, this is just such the perfect choice for this character. Not just in terms of what the song is about, but in terms of how Harvey can sing it and what the emotional range is and emotional energy is related to the emotional energy that this person exudes. Dani: Yes. And I also love the juxtaposition of the song, just stopping at a hall, her freaking out and he's just sitting there and says, "What?" Clara: The thing that makes her boil over and explode her emotions all over everything is somebody else being like, "I have to keep my emotions in." It made me really excited to see their friendship. They are going to develop a friendship, I am here for it, I would to watch it. I think we've talked about George and so I'll probably leave it there. So that leaves us with, Hello, Dolly! What did you think of that choice? Dani: I thought it was a fun number, I've literally never heard the song in my entire life. As you know, but I guess I should say, I'm not huge into musicals. I do some really classic ones, rent. Clara: When you say classic ones, you mean different things than what older people say when they mean classical ones? Dani: I mean like colt classic ones, I guess, things that have probably been made into a movie or production on NBC, I like, but I'm not huge into musical, so I was not familiar with it. It is from a movie broadly musical, correct? Clara: It is, which was made into a film with Barbara Streisand, which was directed by Gene Kelly. Dani: It's funny because when I think Hello, Dolly! I immediately was like, "Is it Dolly Parton?" Clara: No. Dani: Clearly not. Clara: It's interesting, I normally do... There's a lot of classical musicals that I know about, some because I've just been interested in them, but also my stepdad is a film professor, and so I grew up with a lot of that golden age of Hollywood stuff, all those movies and whatever, but I'm not really that familiar with Hello, Dolly! I knew the song roughly, and I'm sure I've seen it once, but it wasn't one of the ones that I latched onto, the way I did was like Meet Me in St. Louis or My Fair Lady. Those were the ones that I really got into. Hello, Dolly! is one of these rare cases where it's a musical that I don't know. Clara: So in the style of a Virgo, I looked it up and according to Wikipedia, it is a romantic comedy about a matchmaker named Dolly who is charged with finding a match for a wealthy curmudgeon named I think, Horse and decides that instead she's going to marry him or try to, because I guess he's rich. So the title number, Hello, Dolly! is played on her triumphant return to a restaurant. I couldn't really get a good sense from Wikipedia of what the restaurant relationship was, but I thought it was really interesting because of course, Zoey does not feel triumphant in her return to work Clara: She feels heartbroken and overwhelmed and everything is too much. And so here, I think the choreo is doing a lot of work, again, to show that contrast. In the original, Dolly is happily dancing along with everybody as they welcome her back, and she's thrilled, there's a lot of the same moves in this version, which you could probably guess, but Zoey is extremely reluctant to be part of it. She's being dragged into it and she's not really happy about it, she's just itching for it to end. And I thought that was really effective, just as a whole musical number. Dani: Yeah. I know everyone is so welcome to have her back. I feel even Leif is like, "This has been much without you here." He made some very interesting changes to their workroom floor. Clara: Standing desks? Dani: The standing desk, I could never do that. The dogs too, what the fuck is with the dogs? I mean, I welcome the dogs but- Clara: Well, on that note, that's basically all I have written for heart songs. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about in the music or should we move on to final thoughts? Dani: I think that's pretty much about it. I think we covered it. Clara: All right. Cool. That makes it final thoughts time. Watching this the first time I really enjoyed it, I loved it and I was just so happy to have everything back. I think overall, it was a good return to the series, but watching it the second time, I was struck by just how much story they packed into this one episode. As I was trying to write down my plot arcs, it was like, "Oh, I've got 10 things written down, I got to condense this." And a lot of that is setting things up, it's the start of the new season, that's always what it is, but it also means that there's some arcs that I think are really important that we didn't get a chance to explore in that first episode at all. Clara: And for me, the biggest one was Simon. Aside from worrying about Zoey and wondering where the relationship might be going, I don't really know what's going on with him. He has outside of the actual number that he sings, he has five lines and half of them are, I'm here for you if you need it. Dani: Yeah. He was very much on the sides of this episode. Clara: Yeah. I really enjoyed this and found it to be a very entertaining episode, but I hope he's not going to be totally silent. Dani: I think it's more of, because we're supposed to feel and be there on Zoey's side of things. And since Zoey is actively pushing him away at the moment, I think that's why. Clara: And that make sense. It was one of those things where when I watched it the second time I was like, "Oh, I feel that this is missing?" Dani: Yeah. Especially because he's such a huge presence throughout all of the season 1. Clara: Exactly. Through all of season one, no matter what is going on with her, you always see a little bit of him. So it is a big contrast. What about you? What are your final thoughts for this premiere? Dani: I feel very, very similar, it was something that I also was like, "Okay, why Simon not in this as much." And I had to come to that conclusion myself that it's because Zoey is actively avoiding him. I love Tobi, so I love all of his moments in the episode. And he's just so sassy, the actor is just so good at delivering his lines and his facial reactions to things that it's great. And I just also just love characters like that. Clara: Like assholes characters? Dani: I do like assholes characters, kind of. I mean, they're not all assholes. Clara: His got a heart of gold. Dani: They're usually secretly like a heart of gold. I liked pretty much everything that happened in the episode. It just more brought about things that I am wanting for future episodes. I noticed that there's a lot of women working for the company that appear in the musical number and yet we have never met any of them. So it would be really nice to see that, especially now that Zoey is going to be a boss, a big boss, maybe some more working relationships with women. Clara: What happened to Jean's rival on the fourth floor? Dani: Joan? Clara: Joan, sorry. Dani: Oh, she was fired. Clara: She was fired. Okay. Ah, that's too bad. I would have liked to see the dynamic between her and Zoey at some point. Dani: Was the whole CEO of SPRQPoint getting arrested, was that something they went into in season one at all? Clara: I think there was a hint about it, but not much. Dani: It was probably something they throw in for to get Joan to be CEO and all of that. Clara: We have to finish our re-watch of season one. Dani: Yes, we do. We really do. I remember big pop points, but the little specifics. Clara: I know. And you have such a great memory. It's weird, you're not constantly correcting me on tiny things. Dani: I feel like I still have a very good memory for it for someone who's literally only watched it through once. Clara: There's a couple other small things that I just wanted to mention, straight observations. One was in our trailer, you talked about film filming during COVID, and Oh my God, it was so obvious anytime they were outside because they always had one or two groups of extras carefully spaced apart and nobody in the background other than that. Dani: Yeah. Versus whereas last season there was always just a bunch of people in the background. Clara: Dogs randomly in the park. That was one thing I noticed was just that little concern, like, "Oh, you had to go out and hire extras, specifically just a few for this." Also just thinking in general about, I wanted to reiterate what I mentioned about the main message of this episode, because I think it is a big thread through the series in general, obviously in season one, but here, I feel like it was sometimes when you feel you can't handle anything, the only way out is to handle things anyway, is to go through, go forward and to face your feelings. And the other half of that is I think the thing that in some ways helped Zoey most in the episode was being able to help somebody else in George. Dani: Yeah. And honestly, that just reminds me of the line that I feel actually hit me the most in the episode, it's just when Zoey says, I don't know how to exist in the world anymore, I felt that on a few occasions. So for me, that hit really hard. And I know it's different, but I really said that a lot, I feel when the magicians end dates, because it was true of losing a friend and it took me so long to grieve it and feel okay again. So I'm glad that I've been able to do other podcasts since, but it's still something that you feel like- Clara: You never forget your first. Dani: ... I'm just getting over. Clara: There were a couple of lines that really struck me too. One was, I feel like this was a line that came out of COVID, "Is it morning because we don't really understand the concept of time anymore?" David talking about being a new parent. And Mitch in one of the videos says, "I know there's no roadmap for moving on, but essentially, you have to move on." And that was the one that tied that theme together. And then this is just to throw in because I wrote it down and it's fun, "It's cute that you shop at Etsy." Dani: I love her big ass glasses that she puts on afterwards, seal is so big. I wonder if they're going to write COVID in, it doesn't seem like they're going to. Clara: No. He talked about not wanting to do it, Austin Winsberg has. I didn't read a whole bunch about it, but I saw a couple headlines and blurbs. Dani: So many shows have been writing it in and I can see why it's very much easier to explain the reason there's not a whole bunch of people in the background and things like that. And some shows are very much like, okay, it's tied to real world and stuff, but I'm glad that they decided not to because I feel it's just such a happy departure kind of show. Clara: Yeah. And I think so much of the show, and Austin Winsberg talked about this in his interview about season one, I think it was his father who had PSP. So much of this is based around his own experience. Obviously, not the magical musical powers, but his experience of going through that with his father and of grieving his father. And I think you can try to imagine your way into what that would be like right now. But I know my experience is different from his and from Zoey's. I have to constantly make these calculations and negotiations around risks in a way, to see my dad in a way that I wouldn't have to without COVID and that I didn't have to before. Clara: And similarly, you feel a lot of isolation and grief no matter what, but there's going to be a difference between the isolation you feel purely because of grief, and then that compounded by COVID. And I appreciate that he's keeping it authentic to his... He's keeping it to his experience in that way, because I think that experience creates so much authenticity in the show, and I appreciate getting that part of it. And I think if he tried to imagine his way into what that would look with COVID, it would feel less authentic. Dani: Yeah. There would be I guess, the ability to add in how you are with your father, how hard it is to not be able to- Clara: I think it would be hard for him. Dani: Since her father has already passed, I feel like it's easier for them to not have to write something. Clara: And then what you're doing is you're, I guess, separating Maggie and her kids. And I don't know, I just don't feel like... It's a level of complication that I don't think is necessary to make the show great and good at what it's doing. And so if it's not necessary- Dani: I feel the only other thing I want to talk about, which I realized that we didn't touch on too much is, how did you feel about how when Mo completely calls out Zoey and checks her on her privilege? Clara: I think it was good. I think Zoey needs that. And again, for me, I talked about this being like when you feel like you can't face anything, you have to face it anyway. In some way, that is Mo pushing her in that direction. Dani: Yeah. And I did really love that Mo followed it up with like, "I don't want to be giving you this tough, but love you need it." Clara: I feel like that's very much our friendship like. We can give each other a tough love, and so, I don't know, I like seeing that in a friendship on TV Dani: It's true. We do give each other a lot of tough love, mostly roasting. I'm actually surprised you didn't call out the fact that on my notes I put my thirst notes. Clara: Ah, we have plenty else to talk about. And on that note, I think we've come to the end of our episode. So listeners, if you exist, thank you for joining us. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and slap a five star rating on Apple Podcasts to help other people find the show. And we'll see you next week for episode 202. Bye. Dani: Bye. Dani: (singing).