Clara: Hello and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara. Dani: And I'm Dani. Clara: And today we're talking about Episode 202, Zoey's Extraordinary Distraction written by Sam Laybourne and directed by Anya Adams. Before we dive in, why don't you read us the episode summary, Dani? Dani: Well IMDb says, "Zoey's attempts to spend private time with Max are continually thwarted by both Mo and work problems; the Clarke family gets a new guest when Emily's sister Jenna comes to 'help' with the baby." Clara: "Help." Dani: "Help." Clara: That's a pretty good description, I think. It's definitely better than the last one which was one miniature part of the entire story. Dani: Yeah. Clara: But yeah, what did you think of this episode Dani? Dani: Well, the season is off to just an incredibly good start. I loved this episode a lot. How about you? Clara: I definitely liked the episode, but I didn't like it quite as much as the last one. The musical numbers, which we will talk about more later, they were just completely fire. Zoey and Max's chemistry is off the charts. And I really liked getting a new character in Jenna and kind of a preview of the other female coders. All that's exciting. But I think maybe because this episode is about distraction, it felt more like a filler episode in that way. It didn't really resonate with me as strongly as some of the previous episodes we've seen. It just felt fluffy. Still, I did... Clara: One thing that I just loved loved was getting more of Emily and Leif, who are two of my favorite side characters and Alice Lee and Michael Thomas Grant are two of my favorite singers on the show. It's hard to say of my favorite singers because everyone is amazing. Yeah, but I'll talk about this more later. But like, Michael Thomas Grant just always kind of blows me away and Alice Lee is one of those two where it's like you don't get to see them very often. And so when they get to come out and sing and do those heavy swings, it always brings an episode up a notch for me. Clara: So yeah, I don't want to get too much into that part of things, into the musical side of things just yet. Should we deep dive? Dani: I don't know if I'd personally call this a filler episode. But yes, please. Clara: We can argue about that later. Okay, I think Zoey sums this episode up pretty well right at the start when she's making out with Max. It's a vacation from the heaviness and grief around Mitch's death and in that sense, the sort of main through line of the series. Clara: That makes it a really fun episode. And there are four arcs that I wanted us to get into: one, the introduction of Emily's sister Jenna played by Jiang Han; two, Zoey and Max's attempts to get it on; three, Mo's freak out about his venture with Max and four, Leif's management woes in the Frat House 5 at Spark. Dani: Sparkpoint. Clara: So yeah, let's start the first one. What did you think of Jenna? Dani: I have a general aversion to people with the name Jenna to be honest. Clara: A general aversion? Dani: A general, yeah. I've only ever had one friend with that name and she had a twin who was I much closer too but she was an absolute handful of a person. This Jenna definitely had that vibe of someone I personally would not want to share a room with for too long. But she clearly does care about Emily and seems to at least want to try and be there for her sister in the situation. Dani: But as you said before, it's lovely to see more about some of the other characters in the story and I also really like Emily. Clara: Yeah, I sort of was mentioning this with the singing thing. I'm excited to see Emily getting more airtime this season in general. She's just such a fantastic character. She reminds me a little bit of Margo in The Magicians, the sort of mundane version. Bringing Emily's family into the show and Emily, again played by Alice Lee helps change up the dynamic in Zoey's family, which has definitely gotten a little on the dark, heavy side with everything that's going on. Clara: So I think it's going to be a great way to introduce a bit of a change of pace that is going to feel maybe more organic. I also like... Like the preview that we've gotten of Jenna in this episode, it seems pretty clear that it's not just going to be fun drama. She comes with a lot of baggage. More even I think than we saw this week. So I was curious, what do you think is behind Emily's warning to Maggie about her that don't trust her basically, beyond that initial she's a flake? Dani: Yeah. I think the musical number says a lot and then Zoey even picking up on that and it was just like, "Be careful with these two." It just looks like it's something that... Things easily get dicey between the siblings. There's probably lots of letdowns and misunderstandings. While Emily sees Jenna as the problem, I'm sure there have been instances in which Emily's just being uptight or stuck up about things. And it just sounds like Jenna is very much the kind of person who is just like on to the next thing very quickly and never- Clara: Yeah. Like with the life situation? Dani: Yeah. Never in one place for long, never with another person for too long. She doesn't have things exactly... She's not as grounded to reality all the time as I feel Emily is. I think that's where they differ is clearly Emily's a working girl and Jenna seems to be just like that free spirited artsy person. I know she mentioned something about body art movement in Seattle. So like, clearly, they're just very different people. What do you think about it? Clara: So I kind of wondered, because of that sort of... Early on, I think all of that makes sense for what we saw on the episode, the early warning that Zoey gives and then what we actually see unfold. But I think... There's sort of extra baggage that was sort of hinted at at the end of the episode made me think like okay, maybe there's a manipulative vibe going on here that we're not seeing. Clara: Oh, no. Now I'm remembering. It is actually Emily who says that to Maggie, not... Emily says that to Maggie, where she's like, "Just don't get too attached to her," or something like that. I think it could be as simple as what you're talking about. But I felt like there was more of a... Maybe she tries to bend people to her will and get them on her side a little bit more. Dani: I don't know if it's that. Clara: Potentially a jealousy thing. Dani: I think she just dips a lot. But I feel like there's a lot more there. I bet you anything, there's probably some kind of troubling aspect within their family that may be... Because they said, Jenna's the older sister. Maybe it was like a family breakup or something that Jenna just was more partial to that Emily just doesn't quite understand. Clara: Well, and that actually brings up an interesting point, which is I don't think we really know anything about Emily's parents at this point. Dani: No. Clara: Are they alive? Because one thing that you do sort of see as a trope, but also as like a thing that happens in real life is a lot of fights happening around when someone dies and people perceive a particular responsibility around that. Clara: I don't know if you watched Lovecraft Country when it came out. But there's a central drama between two sisters where one didn't come home for her mother's funeral and they both have a complicated relationship with their mother. But I could kind of see that being something that would be really relevant to the Clark family and also would be like a particular type of flakiness that would irk Emily. Dani: I always find family dramas and situations like that really interesting. Did you ever see the movie or read the book, This Is Where I Leave You? Clara: Mm-mm (negative). Dani: I think you would really like it. For one, it's like a Jewish family. But the central father passes away and it's kind of like how all of these different siblings deal with it. It has like Jason Bateman and Tina Fey, and a bunch of other people in it. The movie is obviously not as good as the book. The book's were really, really good. I read it around the time that my father passed away. I mean not my father, my grandfather passed away and my father has not passed away. Dani: It was just really interesting, just like how different people's relationships are to someone who has passed and kind of how they deal with that. But these siblings in this story are forced to sit Shiva. Is it Shiva? Clara: Shiva. Yeah. Dani: Shiva together and they're not very happy about it. Clara: Shiva is a different religion. Dani: Okay. So yeah, there's that but... Clara: Yeah, family dynamics are, I think you're right, I think they're just really tricky. Dani: They always make for good storytelling. Clara: Yes. And speaking of that, I always thought it was really fun to see Zoey's family giving her shit about Max. Did you? Dani: I did. I loved it. I'm not close to my whole family but the family members that I am really close to love to give each other shit and the relationship between Zoey and her brother really reminds me of mine with my own brother, Brody. Especially in little moments like nagging her before she leaves for work. He's like, "We're not above that." Dani: How he simultaneously wants to put fear into Max, but then high five him at the same time. It's absolutely something my own brother would do. I believe though that I'm a lot closer to my brother in age than they are so I'm probably a little bit more closer than they are. Clara: It's honestly hard to tell what the ages are supposed to be. She's almost 30, right? Dani: Yeah. Yeah. Clara: That's what we decided. Dani: That's something that the creator said in an interview that she's close to turning 30. Clara: But I don't think David's crazy older than that. I think the absolute max for him is probably around 35. Dani: Yeah, I would say he's probably around 35. Clara: But you and your brother are like a year apart, right? Dani: Like a year and a half, yeah. I do think we're a little bit closer than they are. Clara: Does he give your partner shit? Dani: Yeah. And I've actually dated a lot of his friends. So it's been really funny. Clara: Oh shit. Max and Zoey really struggled to find alone time in this episode but when they finally did, that scene was just really lovely. A nice combination of over the top ridiculous with ridiculousness with the Take Me Out To The Ballgame/I'll Make Love to You Medley. Dani: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Clara: Which is a little bit weird, but it kind of reminded me of that line from Maggie earlier when she's like, "You're a boy. No, you're a man. Boys are allowed. Men are allowed." It's like Boyz II Men. Dani: Yeah. Probably not intentional, but still funny. Clara: No, totally random. But it just gave it a little extra in my brain. And then of course like that combined with some of the really sweet ways that they were addressing, because we were talking last week about how Max and Zoe, they're going to have to address at some point the fact that Zoey has this insight into him and he doesn't have this insight into her. Clara: The duet I think does a really good job of that. We'll get into the music part of that more when we talk about the episode of Heart Songs. But from a story perspective, what did you think of the scene and the general narrative around Max and Zoey in this episode? Dani: I love them together so much. They have such an easy chemistry and like a vibe and I shoot them pretty fucking hard. I'm not going to lie. I literally texted you. The hopeless romantic in me is crying and the cold dead part of me warmed a bit. So that's how I feel about them. They're very clearly in that honeymoon phase though where everything is cute and they have these crazy teenager hormones again. Clara: She's blushing constantly. Dani: Yeah. Clara: This entire episode. Dani: Yeah. And I just love how absolutely comfortable they are with each other though. I loved every little scene that they had together in this episode and they had quite a few. How are you feeling about Zoey and Max? Clara: You know in season one, I wasn't quite as excited about Zoey-Max as you were. But I think it's so easy to win me over on this because everything has been very adult. It's kind of like what you're talking about with Austin Waynesburg saying like, "We don't want to keep a love triangle around. Because that's not realistic. That's not an adult relationship." Clara: And so I think like, that is the thing that keeps being compelling to me about their relationship, not the teenager hormones, but the fact that they talk shit out. And I feel like the concerns I had were around him being able to accept her not being interested in him. Both that's like a bit of a moot point and the things that I was concerned about around that were him maybe not being mature enough to handle conflict with her. Those things are very clearly not an issue, at least not right now. Dani: Yeah, I do think like the problems that they had in season one were definitely more of feeling betrayed. I feel like he just really felt betrayed by her and a couple different moments. But overall, he was always able to kind of let those negative feelings slide and be there for her. Clara: Yeah. I think like another way of putting it is that I think early on when he was hiding how he felt about her then when things did come out, it didn't give him a chance to express himself honestly. And so then when things did come out, they came out in this more kind of passive aggressive way. Now that they are both being honest with each other, that's not happening. Clara: Yeah. I think that's right. One thing that did strike me in this episode, Zoey still doesn't seem to have talked to Simon about that. They have this awkward moment at work when she accidentally so she's going to ride him. Dani: Ride him so hard. Clara: Ride him so hard. Ride him so hard, but it made it all the more notable to me because she spent so much time even at work in this episode, trying to get to Max so that they can bang. Simon, I was just like, we haven't seen her talk to him. Is he still waiting for an answer from her? Clara: I feel like he must be because we literally picked up where the last episode ended with them making out, with Max and Zoey making out. I just feel like it... I hope that she... I don't know. Maybe I don't hope she texted him but I hope that they have that conversation. But it needs to be acknowledged even if it's not going to be a major part of the series going forward. Dani: I don't think they've had that conversation. But I feel like he knows. I feel like it had this air of awkwardness to it that made me feel like he either from just general intuition or from Mo or Max knows about what's going on and I think it will be addressed at some point. I feel he knows- Clara: Probably not. Dani: I feel like though he knows at the end of the day Zoey only being able to cope is probably what matters the most to him because he is a good guy. Clara: Yeah, he is. So one of the other things, one of the interruptises Max and Zoey's coitus attempts- Dani: Coitus. Clara: Sorry, is Mo. He freaks out when Max tries to get him to sign a contract to make their partnership official. And because he's Mo, Zoey figures this out because he starts singing opera super loud in his apartment when she's on her date with Max and then he blows Zoey off when she goes over to talk to him about it. But then of course, sings a heart song that is truly heartbreaking. Dani: Yeah. Clara: So what do you think of Mo's arc this episode? Dani: Well, for one, this isn't the first time Mo's done this. Mo loves to shut people out when shit gets real. He does it in season one during the whole church gender fluid episode. Clara: Yeah. That's true. Dani: So it's not the first time. He also gets pretty aggressive towards her when he doesn't want to talk about things. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Which is fine. He doesn't have to. But for one, I'm still somehow- Clara: Boundaries are good. Okay. Dani: I'm still somehow always shocked at Alex Newell's singing abilities. Damn! Clara: How are you shocked? Dani: I don't know. Clara: This and Glee, I'm like... Dani: I don't know. But I still am. It's like he always just brings something more to the table every time. But at first, I was honestly scared that it had something to do with this long distance relationship with his boyfriend and that it was just triggering him. And I was like, "No." But it didn't. I thought it was an interesting arc because it's always nice to see more about Mo, because at the end of the day he's still kind of a mysterious character. Dani: And I think this season, it's going to be a lot more about really like meeting the other characters that make up Zoey's world. Clara: Well, and I think that's important in general. I also think it's especially important with Mo because even though Zoey is the one with the magical powers, there has been a little bit of a magical black friend vibe with Mo's character. And so I think the more that we get to know about him and the more that he becomes real, the more that'll go away. So I'm looking forward to sort of taking down the things that make Mo "magical" in those ways. Dani: Yeah. I feel like they're trying to break that. He's not always perfectly there for Zoey. He's never always the deciding factor in anything. He does have his own kind of storyline going. He's definitely not perfect. I do think they're trying to break that stereotype but- Clara: Yes, but the more they can do it, the better. Dani: The more they can do it, the better. I love Mo. I would love to see you just more... I know a lot of people, a lot of critics said that he was one of the best characters to come out of TV this last year. And I agree. Clara: Yeah. And I think it's also like... I do think the visibility of his character is helping a lot of people who don't know as much about queer and particularly gender queer and gender fluid sides of things. And understand that a little bit better. Dani: Yeah. Clara: The one thing that surprised me a little bit was the way that his arc was resolved. I'm not shocked that Mo would have kind of like a controlling attitude in a creative project because he's just such a creative person. As you and I know, having worked together on creative projects for almost five years now, it can be a little hard to let go of your creative vision when you're working with other people. Clara: But I was a little surprised that it was the contract that freaked him out. This is like such a nerdy nitpicky thing to get angsty about. But it's exactly because a contract is what would protect your friendship from that. That's the thing that says, you actually don't have the power to go screw over your friend randomly. I know that's like a dumb thing. It was probably just about him realizing that it was real. I don't know. Dani: I feel like Mo says it a few times. He doesn't trust himself. It's not that he doesn't trust Max. He doesn't want to lose him as a friend and they clearly got quite close in the time away from Zoey. Clara: All three weeks of it. Dani: All three weeks. They were starting to form. I've been rewatching season one and they were starting to form a friendship even as early as well... When Mo gave Max the makeover. So they're definitely like closer and I think it is just more of like a guilt thing. Like Max points it out too, "You just feel guilty." And I feel like it's also just like they don't know each other well enough too yet. Mo seemed genuinely surprised about Max's anecdote about his dad never being proud of him. Clara: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dani: But also I want to hear about this street fight that he was apparently in. Clara: Well, didn't we decided that was the lie of the two truths and a lie? Dani: No, that was one of the truths because his lie was or his truth was. Clara: But it's two truths and a lie. Dani: Oh, okay. Clara: Yeah, yeah. I think that was the lie. I think Mo was right about that. But you raised something which I somehow forgot to work into this script which was the makeover. Dani: [inaudible 00:20:20]. Clara: How much almost did you crack up when Zoey came out with the big '80s hair, all in glitter and sequins? Dani: It was pretty great. I feel like it's actually something that I've seen Jane Levy wear before. Something crazy. Because I've been a fan of hers for actually a really long time. I feel like I've seen something crazy like that on her before. But it was just so good. I love how... There's a couple of moments where Max does this where he basically kind of like sells her out. And Mo's like, "What if she changed her look to this all the time or that." Clara: When he says that Mo can burn all her sweaters. Dani: Yeah, he's like sure. Clara: She says, "No." And they're like, "Excuse me?" Dani: It's like the little moments like that, that I just love about their relationships though. Clara: Yes. Well, I also really liked the... We didn't know Zoey in the apartment until she walked in. Dani: Yeah. Also though about that contract, isn't it not legally binding if there's typos? I swear, that's a thing. Clara: I don't think that's a thing. Dani: Are you sure? Clara: Maybe that particular word would be a problem. Dani: I feel like you can contest it though because of like- Clara: No. Dani: I don't know. I swear I've heard that before. Clara: Not unless it has a change in me. Trust me on this, I've actually looked at some legal cases that involve linguistics because I taught semantics. There has to be... You have to be able to make an argument for a difference in meaning or an inability to understand it. And for that to be the case, it's generally more than just a simple typo. Dani: Okay. Clara: There's probably some cases where you could make that argument, but those would be ones where a typo did actually change the meaning in some way. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Okay. So I was trying to figure out why Mo wouldn't just talk to Max, but I guess he sort of answered this about him just being really good at shutting people out when things get real. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Do you think it's just? Do you think he's like ashamed? Dani: I think so. I think Max kind of points that out. I think you're feeling some extreme guilt over the situation. I still think it's funny that the best friend's name was Zora and now he's best friends with Zoey. Clara: It made me think of Glo Sawyer, The Destroyer. Dani: I still haven't watched that show. Clara: It's not even that close. Dani: I've seen a couple episodes of season one and I wasn't feeling it. Clara: Oh, okay. Well, if you saw a few episodes of season one and you didn't like it, you probably won't like it. Dani: Okay. Clara: Because Season 1, I think is the best. But anyway, our last Zoey's discussion point today before we get to Heart Songs, is Leif. What did you think of him as a manager? Dani: It made me laugh because I feel like I've seen situations like this where someone thinks that they're going to be such a great fucking manager. But when push comes to shove, they just can't do it. I do think it has more to do with the fact that he's friends with all these people than anything, especially Tobin. Dani: But I do like this arc, I think it's important to show that he is able to make these similar mistakes to what Zoey has done in the past when he pulled the all nighter and did all the work. You can't do all of the work in a big kid job. You just can't. It's not like school. Clara: You can't. Well, that's not what managing is. Which I think they say in their conversation pretty clearly, but I was very briefly a manager of my team for I don't know, four months, because our manager left and I was the most senior person. And honestly, I think the thing that benefited me most was knowing that I'm not a people person. And so I was like, this is going to be a problem for me. I'm just getting as much advice as I could, as possible. Clara: But as a manager, your job is to enable your team to do things. To get obstacles out of their way. And if you're just doing shit for them, you're not doing that. You're really kind of doing the opposite of that. You're creating obstacles for them, for their ultimate growth. But I like what you said about him repeating Zoey's mistakes, because I think they're sort of rivalry over that management role in the first season, it's clear that he has a bit of a like superiority complex about it and how he treated her after she got it. Dani: Yeah. Also, they just like had very interesting relationship. To this day, he still think she's the one that wrote that really negative review about him when it was actually Joan. Clara: Yeah, you said last time too that you were hoping Leif would learn more about the women of Spark and it looks like you're going to get your wish. So what did you think about that as a solution to Leif's management problems? Dani: I don't know if necessarily it's going to be this perfect solution. I feel like if anything, it's going to really fuck with the dynamics that are going around there. For one, you know Tobin is going to be a little dick about it because it's Tobin. Clara: Be he's a little dick. Dani: Yeah. I feel like just from meeting these women just shortly, it feels like, especially the lead one that talked the most like probably has her own bit of an ego problem. I don't know if necessarily like her and Leif are going to get along. I can just feel that. Or her and Tobin. It's going to be like one of these things, just a clash. Dani: I feel like it's not going to be a solution yet. It might work out in the long run. But I do just still think it's important to implement more women in because it was something that always kind of bothered me about the first season too. And I was like, there's really not that many women. And I know that that was kind of a point. One of the points is that Zoey is one of the only women there and she got like promotion and everything. Clara: But yeah, now that she's in a position of authority, especially it seems like it's time to kind of fix that. Dani: Yeah. Clara: I felt like I had... I had two thoughts about it. On the one hand, yes, I agree. Making the team more balanced seems like a good thing, independent of the dynamic issues, it just create more and better opportunities for women of Spark, show that teams can be balanced create things in that way. Clara: On the other hand, and you sort of brought this up in your notes. Part of the problem too, is that Tobin and Leif are friends. In terms of who gets sent away, it would have made more sense, I think, from a solution perspective to send Tobin upstairs instead of one of the random coders. Obviously, from a TV show perspective, that's going to be trickier. We already had one upstairs, downstairs rivalry in the show. Doing that again, is probably not sustainable. You need them in the same room. Dani: Yeah. Clara: I understand. But I do think that if that's the main problem, it's going to need to get more than just a one line. Tobin saying, "What are you doing?" And Leif being like, "[inaudible 00:27:07]." Clara: The other thing is that I don't really feel like I have a good sense of what the switch means for anyone's careers. In season one, it seemed like there was more prestige associated with the teams and offices on higher floors. Maybe that's changed now. But those three women who came in were all from floor five rather than floor four. And so I don't think they'd be happy about the move if they essentially being demoted to make this team more diverse. Clara: In some ways, that would be reflective of the reality of the tech industry but not in a good way. I think it's like... It's a move that's affecting a lot of people in their careers. And it's not clear to me how much they've been consulted or how that's going to play out. I don't think that's something that there's really going to be much of a chance to explore in this show because it's not really the main point. Dani: Yeah, I probably think it's either A, a tiny bit of an unintentional continuity error or the prestige possibly went away when the previous boss was fired and Joan took over as interim CEO of the company but it was likely more of just like a way to push the plot forward. I do think the prestige was probably taken away. Dani: Also, the company's pretty broke from what they've said. So there might be no prestige to any of the areas at that moment. Clara: I also do wonder, is that just going to make floor five a frat house? Dani: Probably. But I do like, feel like this move is somehow going to be like... It's going to lead to Leif and Tobin being separated in some way, whether that being- Clara: A rift. Dani: Yeah, like another rift between the two of them. Clara: More no doubt songs. All right, so speaking of songs. It's Heart Song time. It has been so hard to talk about the plot of this one in particular without getting into some of the numbers because they've just been really epic. So there are five-six main songs. We're going to ignore the opera and also there's a medley, so I'm calling it five but six-ish, seven. That Girl's Poison by Bell Biv DeVoe which Emily sings. Too Good at Goodbyes by Sam Smith which Mo sings. Baby Did a Bad Bad Thing by Chris Isaac sung by Leif. Take Me Out To The Ballgame/I'll Make Love To You Medley sung by Max and then the duet that Max and Zoey's sing which is A Moment Like This by Kelly Clarkson. Clara: So just like last time, I'm going to start the section by asking what was your favorite number this week? Dani: This was such a hard... Like you said, all of the numbers are so good and Leif constantly surprises me by how just fucking amazing his voice is. I just remember the first time that I heard him sing I Put a Spell On You. I was literally... I don't want to be cheesy and say spellbound, but that's how it fell. Clara: Well, [inaudible 00:29:55] my husband and I, when that came on, we were really... I don't know it was like, the opening chords or whatever and we just sort of knew it was going to be a song that... We knew that was going to be the song. And the Screamin' Jay Hawkins version of that is so iconic and so just amazing, over the top amazing. We're just like, that's not a... That's a mean thing to do to that actor. Then he opens his mouth and you're like, "Okay, okay, you got this." Dani: Yeah. There was that, I think like Too Good at Goodbyes, the Sam Smith cover was incredible. But I think at the end of the day, like I have to say it's just like the entire bedroom scene. Clara: The medley plus the duet? Dani: The medley plus the duet really just took it for me. And it's a lot to do with like, the choreography of it was insane. Clara: Yeah. So talk about that. You were talking about some of the singing choices that Skylar Astin made too, right? Dani: Yeah. In my notes, I'm sure you saw that. I love just like the little tiny things about it. Like how when Zoey pulls his belt off and his voice goes like an octave higher when he's singing Take Me Out to The Ballgame, I just like loved little tiny just add ins like that. Then I'm just I'm just so curious. I'm like was it there? Or was that a choice that Skylar made? And then the choreography when he kind of stops in the middle of it and is taking off his clothes and he's all mad and angry about it. Dani: I don't know. There's just such a realness to it. Even though it's this over the top thing of just... It's just like if something's just not working sexually between someone and it can be very frustrating. It's just like, all came through and with the songs, it just makes it even funnier. And then... I don't know. I just love the choreography of it the way that they just kind of... Like both of them, both actors. Dani: Even Jane when she's doing a little spiny thing on the bed and just kind of like waiting for him to come out. It's just really funny. But also just really endearing too to see like... Max has made it abundantly clear over and over and over again how much he loves her. So it was really sweet. And then when they did the duet, it was just like... I just loved just hearing the juxtaposition between her singing acapella and him not, having the big band behind him. I just thought it was so lovely and well done. It really showcases their singing abilities. And even I remember reading that Jane has never been taught how to professionally sing. This is all her. Clara: Really? Dani: Yeah. Clara: Well, we were talking about how wild it is to do that to her, to put her in that acapella place. Which makes sense from the story because it's not happening in her head and the band is always there as sort of like an emblem of what's going on in her head. Dani: Yeah. Clara: So you kind of need that separation to show that it's real, but also singing acapella is hard period and when you're singing acapella pitted against Skylar Astin, who is singing with a band, it takes a lot to hold your own in that and she really did. Dani: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Clara: Sorry. You were saying that that was your favorite, the bedroom medley? Dani: Yeah. Yeah, just the whole whole entire thing, it's just really sweet too. As funny as it was, it was also just really sweet. And like I said, the hopeless romantic in me was just like... Clara: I agree with everything you said. And I do think it was amazing. Maybe because I knew that that was going to be what you said. And maybe also just because I do... I think Michael Thomas Grant is my favorite singer on the show, which is not purely about ability. Everyone on the show is amazing. Clara: Skylar Astin is incredible. John Clarence Stewart is incredible. Alex Newell is incredible. There's nobody on the show who isn't a five star talent. But with Leif, it's the same way you were saying with Alex Newell. With Leif, it always surprises me and it shouldn't. But I think because he's singing these songs and this is no exception, that have these really iconic performances and iconic recordings. So it's not just about his talent at singing. It's about taking this thing that's really iconic and making it your own. And that's a really hard thing to do. Every time I see him sing, I feel like I'm just arrested by it because of that, because I'm expecting it to be a sort of insurmountable task, Sisyphean task, if you will. And he makes it look easy every time. Clara: I think I'm going to give it that. My sort of other... And we'll talk about all of them, but I do also want to mention Emily's number. Maybe we'll just go into talking about that. Because Alice Lee is another singer who I think in season one didn't get a ton of airtime but just kills it when she does. Clara: One, that girls poison is like a total classic for people in our generation. I love that it shows off her boss bitch side, because in the premiere episode right after she had the baby, we weren't really seeing that, because I don't know. Things had sort of shifted. So it's nice to see that it's not just her ambition at work, but it's a part of her personality, an integral part of her personality and having kids is not going to take that away from her. Dani: Yeah, for sure. I love her character. We haven't gotten to see her too, too much. I don't even think they really talked about her at all, in the first season until episode like two or three year is when she finally shows up. Clara: Yeah, we don't really get like a big sense of her until that episode where she thinks that David is cheating or whatever. Dani: Yeah. So it's been interesting getting to know her. And just, she does have this amazing ability to sing and I really hope that they give her more opportunities to sing because I feel like when she does, it's usually with other people. Clara: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And so getting to see her go solo a bit is nice. She's also a really good dancer. Dani: Yeah. Clara: So I think it's nice. Everything is a singing and dance number. Everyone is good at both to a certain extent but like Skyler Astin's talent is skewed toward his singing. He's a decent dancer, but he's an amazing singer. You've got a couple people like that. And so I think with her, it's really nice to see somebody where the dancing is very visibly good. Where that's a big part of it, where those sort of virtuosity in dancing kind of grabs your attention. Dani: I do feel like Skylar Astin is very privileged in that he has a quite the theater background. Clara: Yes. So much. Did you watch his... He and the actor who plays Tobin did a Facebook or Instagram Live earlier this week. And they were talking about his early Broadway parts. Dani: I didn't, but I know that he's done a lot. I know that the first thing that he did is he was in the original cast of Spring Awakening. But he definitely has quite the theater background, which I'm sure helps him a lot. Dani: I know he's not the only one. A lot of them do. Peter Gallagher had been a part of a lot of Broadway productions as well. I haven't done too much research on all of them. I don't think... I'm sure some of them are actually more of dancers than they are singers. Clara: I think I read that Alice Lee was like a... She's also a YouTuber under the name Alice J. Dani: Interesting. I don't know too much about YouTube. Clara: I feel like Youtuber culture is just half a generation removed from me, so I don't feel like I fully understand it. But there is... That's its whole own type of performance and I'd be really interested to... I don't know. If we ever get to talk to her, I definitely want to ask how she thinks that affects her performance style and her sort of approach to character and whatever. Dani: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Clara: Okay. Then the only one that we now haven't talked about in any depth is Mo's Sam Smith cover. I know you really love that. So why don't you tell me about that. Why did it speak to you so strongly? Dani: I feel like it has to do with the fact that I just also really love that song. I think the song is a really fucking sad and beautiful song. I always love I guess when queer artists cover other queer artist's material. Especially Sam Smith, I know also identifies as gender fluid. That's interesting. There's a lot to it there. But I just love the way that Alex Newell sings. Just puts everything into it. It's like- Clara: Yeah, there was a lot of rawness in that one. Dani: Yeah. So that's what I like. It was so raw and that's what made me feel like it had something to do with his relationship with his boyfriend at first because he did also just mention in the premiere that they hadn't seen each other in so long. That's why it kind of made me feel like that. But I don't know. I love it. I love that song. It was a really good choice for him and his singing abilities. Even the choreography was really beautiful. The show just in general with the choreography is insane on this show. Clara: Well, so we've covered the main plot arcs, we've covered Heart Songs, we'll move on to final thoughts soon. But before we do, are there any sort of like stray observations or anything that you wanted to cover. Dani: I don't think I have anything that I absolutely feel like I need to talk about other than the fact that I'm completely in love with Max. But what about you? Clara: He's a Capricorn magnet. Okay. This is really a stray observation. But I was talking to my stepmom, we were texting back and forth about how this is such a great show, but the one thing that irritates us as people who live in the Bay Area is that it seems pretty clear that Zoey's family lives in Marin. Clara: The only other place that's in the Bay Area that's like that suburban, parts of Berkeley can be like that. But I don't think it's a Berkeley family. It definitely seems like a Marin family. And yet, in Season 1, Zoey would just casually drop by after work, you have to take the fucking ferry to get to Marin. Dani: That's the only way? Clara: Well, you could drive but does Zoey have a car? Dani: You would have to go all the way around, right? Clara: There's a bridge, but you either have to drive and it's going to take a while or you have to take the ferry and it's going to take a while. I don't think Zoey has a car. Dani: I always thought the same thing when I was watching it. The first season I was just like, as much as they can make this feel like San Francisco, this really doesn't feel like San Francisco. I felt like from what I've been in San Francisco, the only place that I could think of that was similar was obviously Marin but that area that's like right after you enter the city from the Golden Gate Bridge is kind of similar. Clara: I still think like it's not that, not urban enough for that to be possible. Dani: Yeah. Well, that is like the super rich like upscale area. Clara: Yeah. Dani: But yeah, I always like... I was just like, out of everything, this is the one thing they can't pull off as feeling accurate. But I just like love all the like little mentions of the Bay Area that I just feel like make it feel like authentic in some ways. Clara: Yes. Honestly, it's a little ridiculous of me to be like, this is a show where somebody has musicals happening in their brain all the time that come from other people. It is a little ridiculous for me to be like, "But she can't get to Mill Valley that quickly or whatever." This is definitely not the big thing. It was just something that we were talking about and I thought bore mentioning. But you were saying you like all the little San Francisco. Dani: I like the little mentions of it. And also just when they say Max is like I got a very open-minded therapist in Berkeley and I was they would be in Berkeley, they would. It's just like the little things like how they refer to certain areas just by name without going into it or over explaining it because shows will do that when it takes place in a certain area and I like that they don't really seem to do that. Clara: Yeah, very natural world building. Dani: Yeah, I always thought that was really cool. I try not to be a super harsh critic, but whenever anything has to do with the Bay Area, it's hard not to having grown up near it my entire life. And I'm just like... There's some stuff. There's actually this other show that Jane Levy is in called the What If that was on Netflix also takes place in San Francisco and also has John Clarence Stewart in it as well. Clara: When she is from Marin, Jane Levy. Dani: Yeah. I always like... I'm just like this show does a way better job than some other things have done. Actually the worst tutorial of San Francisco in media that I think I've ever seen was the Venom movie that came out like two years ago. It was bad. Clara: All right, well, I think we can move to final thoughts now that we've hit Venom territory. Why don't you go first this time? What is your overall summary, your final thoughts? Dani: I really liked this episode. I thought it was really fun and really sweet. There's just so many sweet little moments in it, tugged at my heartstrings a little bit in different ways. In different ways than it usually I feel like does. I don't know. I was really happy with this episode. What about you? Clara: I said this at the top and you disagreed but I stand by my judgment of this as a filler episode which is not like a negative judgment. The meat of the season has to be in Zoey and her family's grief. There's no other possibility really for the meat of the season, despite the fact that Zoey and Max are getting together. That hasn't really been dealt with yet. Clara: We got only a very small glimmer of it in that premiere. I think I actually saw a trailer for the next episode that suggests that it's... That's when it's really going to hit for Zoey at least. Dani: It's going to... Yeah, yeah. Clara: Right. And of course, the title is called Zoey's Extraordinary Distraction. So I feel like they're kind of telling us, telegraphing that it's a filler episode. That's fine. There were a few little things that niggled at me. One thing I mentioned before was that sort of contract issue with Mo. This other one is small, but the whole baseball song thing felt a little like a manufactured problem. Clara: Obviously, they were always going to have to deal with that inequality and insight between Zoey and Max in their relationship. And it was a really sweet way to do it and I loved the scene. At the same time, it felt a little odd for it to be at this point. And maybe especially because they have like several scenes where they're trying to get it on and where they get like to a certain point in that and it's only in this scene where Max mentions this. Dani: Yeah, that's true. I actually noticed that for sure as well. Clara: Very small thing that didn't quite work for me. But the songs were amazing. Honestly, I think in terms of the music this is one of my favorite episodes of this entire series so far because just every single one. Dani: Yeah, I remember when they got to Leif's song, I was like, "We're only 20 minutes in and every single fucking song is amazing." Clara: Yeah. Just incredible. Definitely that is something that more than worked for me. It was nice to get some new characters. I'm really excited to see more about those characters, to see more about Jenna and the other and the female coders and also to see the way that like... I think bringing Jenna in prefigures this more central role for Emily. Clara: Similarly, we're seeing the same thing in Leif's storyline. He is a manager now. He is dealing with all of these things. And it's sort of... They create issues that Zoey has to be involved in but also that they have to work out together as managers. I think like I am really excited about all those things. And in this particular episode, excited to see more of Alice Lee and Michael Thomas Grants talents because they're just incredible. Clara: I think overall, I definitely liked this episode. It didn't quite hit me in the gut. I have not talked about my dad once this episode, probably because Zoey didn't talk about her dad. But yeah, I still thought it was so entertaining and enjoyable. Dani: The reason I say it's not filler is because... I mean still everything is still something that's moving the plot forward where I feel like generally with a TV show, and it's like a filler episode, it's like literally nothing that brings the plot forward in any way shape or form. Clara: We just have to have different definitions of that. Dani: I don't know. This is like someone who's come from watching a lot of fucking anime. Clara: Oh, yeah. Dani: Dragonball Z is like every other episode is filler. Clara: Well, and Star Trek was... I think of the Monster of The Week episodes and like Star Trek or Buffy or like any of those shows. Dani: Yeah. Any show that goes longer than 13 episodes a season is going to have a filler episode or two. It's just too long to drag on story arcs, otherwise. Clara: Well, so I think that's basically all I had. Anything else you want to say before we wrap up? Dani: I don't think so. Clara: Then I think we have come to the end of our episode. Listeners, thanks for joining us. If you like what you heard, please subscribe. Slap that five star rating on Apple podcasts so other people can find our show. And we'll see you next week for Episode 203. Bye. Dani: Bye. (singing)