Clara: Hello, and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara. Dani: I'm Dani. Clara: Today, we're talking about Episode 205, Zoey's Extraordinary Trip, written by the team of Joe Port and Joe Wiseman and directed by John Terlesky. Before we dive in, a quick request. If you like our podcast, please head over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review. Because of the way Apple's search algorithms work, it's those reviews that are on Apple that count the most towards search rankings, no matter what system you're coming from, except Spotify. People are much more likely to find podcasts that have a lot of Apple reviews than ones that don't have very many. Yeah, if you like us, very easy, free way to help us out is to just leave one of those reviews. Clara: Also wanted to say a big congratulations to Jane Levy on her Golden Globe nod. I'm sure you're excited about that, too, Dani. Dani: Woo, woo. Clara: Yeah. Honestly a lot of the nominations this year were trash. Even the people who make Emily In Paris are mad that it got nominated over I May Destroy You. Jane has done an incredible job in this show, showing a really wide range, right? This is not just your typical musical comedy, so her nomination seems very well deserved. We just want to throw out a big yay, Jane. Dani: Yeah. I'm super excited for her. Kind of sad that the show didn't get nominated in any other aspect at all. Not even directing or choreography. Anything. I'm just like, "Okay." I was actually kind of surprised it got any, though, because it's kind of one of those underdog shows to begin with. Golden Globe disappointments, though, is definitely a- Clara: I think Golden Globe disappointment is a fact of life, but we're glad that we get to be appointed in this one area. Dani: True. Clara: Now that that's out of the way, why don't you read the episode summary for us, Dani? Dani: Well, IMDB says, "Zoey decides to explore her rebellious side with her neighbor from growing up. Aiden, guest star Felix Mallard. Max's dad, guest star Chip Zien, comes to visit. Clara: I know it would be a pretty big spoiler, but I feel like this description glosses over the meatiest parts of this episode. Don't you, Dani? Dani: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't even mention anything else. It doesn't even say anything like, "Simon's work drama," or [crosstalk 00:02:24]. Clara: Yeah. It doesn't even allude to that or to ... Dani: Yeah, well, I saw the promo for next week, and it's all Simon. Clara: I got to start watching these before we record [crosstalk 00:02:36]. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Anyway, we should get to initial impressions. Dani, what'd you think of this episode? Dani: I mean, I like episodes like this. I'm all for the weird drug trip episodes. I mean, it doesn't happen for all that long in this episode, but I don't know. I think those ones are really fun to explore. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Especially, I feel like as people who are making it, I have a feeling it's got to be fun on a bunch of different kind of elements there. Clara: Yeah, and I think it's especially fun because Zoey's character is so buttoned up. Right? You're getting to see somebody who's definitely not into drugs have that kind of experience and freak out about it a little. Dani: She's probably smoked pot like, once. Clara: There's no way that she grew up in San Francisco and didn't do drugs, but I don't know. Dani: I mean, she's kind of, I feel like, just her own person. Maybe she could get away with not doing it, but I also thought it kind of weird, just because her parents were clearly hippies in the '70s. I'm like, "They've done drugs." Dani: I just like the whole way, though, that they went about drugs in the episode. Clara: I will say, though, my parents both ... Sorry to expose you, but my parents both had various drug experiences in the '60s and '70s when they were growing up and coming of age or whatever. I think that made me ... My form of rebellion was kind of being straight laced for a very long time. Dani: It actually surprises me a little bit that Zoey hasn't done drugs, just because she's kind of a weirdo. She is buttoned up, but she's also not your average person at all. She's very erratic and weird. Clara: Well, I will say, going back to the episode, I found myself pretty irritated with Zoey in this episode. Dani: Oh, yeah. Clara: Which I think is the point, but it was still really frustrating to watch. I think especially because I do identify with her on a lot of levels. Just seeing how self absorbed she is in this moment. I get that part of grief and part of depression is you get focused on yourself, but the extent to which she got self focused, to the exclusion of people who have really been there for her and given her a lot, it just ... I don't know. You said something in your notes that was like, "Not about dat trauma. IDGAF," which I think summed it up pretty well. Clara: The big highlight for me of this episode, aside from Simon's arc and his incredible rendition of Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, which we'll get to in the heart songs, was Max calling her out. Because it was totally necessary. Oh, and I guess one other small highlight was when she pats Danny Michael Davis' ankle and says, "It's like a dolphin." Dani: I cracked up, though, when she's like, "Can I pet it?" And he's like, "Of course you can." Clara: Then, she's like, jumping on the table so awkwardly. Dani: Crawling on there. I'm like, "Okay." Clara: Was she still holding her popsicle at the time? Dani: No, I think she'd finished it. Clara: All right, all right. That at least is some small amount of good judgment. Oh, one thing that [Linnear 00:05:46] noticed from that scene that I just thought was hilarious was, Aiden was literally on his phone in the background. That felt very real. Dani: Oh, yeah. I noticed that, too. I was like, "That's so accurate." I've definitely, whenever I get high, I tune out basically everything that's happening around me and then, I'll just kind of poke my head up randomly and just be like, "Yo, dude, did you know this?" On my phone the whole time. Clara: I sneak off without saying goodbye to people and just take naps. Dani: I do that a lot, too. Clara: You do that in real life, though, I think. Dani: I do, but I feel like I'm more likely to if I'm intoxicated. Just be like, "Bye." Clara: Anyway, we should probably get into the deep dive. The arcs I want to cover are one, more depth on Zoey's trip with Aiden and Danny Michael Davis. Two, Max's visit with his dad. Three, the douchey architect's reaction to being turned down. I'm not even going to name him. I know you put his name in the notes, and I am ignoring that. Yeah, him being douchey about being turned down by Maggie. Then, the fight between Maggie and Jenna that results from that. Four, which we're going to save for last because I think it's the meatiest, Simon's arc about being used as a shield against accusations of racism, as a result of the bias built into SPRQPOINT's facial recognition algorithms. Clara: Let's start with Zoey, since we're already halfway into the drug trip arc. You said something in your notes that I really love. Earth signs can only rebel the way Zoey does. I just loved the to-do list of rebellious activities. It was a little too real, though. I felt called out. Dani: Yeah, I also saw your reply about how she's probably Aquarius rising like us, which is probably true, which would make sense of her little weirdo side, too. Yeah, I feel like every single time I've done anything kind of like that, where I'm going to let loose or whatever, I always still have to have a solid plan in place. I'm never going to be an on the fly, let's be spontaneous person. Clara: No, you have to schedule your drug trip. Dani: Yeah. I'm never, when I get home at the end of the day, like, "Let's get high." No, I tell myself, "I'm going to get high on this day." That's what happens. Clara: Yeah, planning. Planning. Spreadsheets, calendars. I always think that ... I mean, you were saying this before, but I really do think drug trip episodes are hilarious. It is such a trope, but they're so heightened to the point of being silly. Especially in a comedy, when you're seeing them from the perspective of the person who is high. Clara: I think at one point during this episode, Linnear made some comment about how Jane doesn't do a good job of acting high. I was like, "No, no, no. She's not. That's not the point. The point is that she's funny, and she does an amazing job of that in this episode." Clara: There are bits that are real things of being high or whatever, but the point is for it to be a little exaggerated and funny. Dani: Absolutely. There are moments in the performance, and not just hers. Also Felix's as Aiden. I'm like, "They almost seem like they're legitimately high right now." Clara: He did especially, I think. Dani: Yeah, he was really good at it. Clara: What do you think ... They don't ever tell us what she's on, right? Aiden doesn't tell her. What do you think she is on? Dani: I have a feeling there's probably a reason behind not saying what it is, because they're probably not allowed to kind of promote what kind of drug it is. You know? Clara: Oh, because it's a network show? Dani: Yeah. It's a network show. Clearly, it's a psychedelic, but as I was saying to you before, there aren't very many psychedelics that are in pill form. Almost all of them are like shrooms or a tab of acid or whatever. They don't generally work like that. There's a couple synthesized ones that have been made, so it's probably one or two of those. I'm probably not going to put the names out there, either, but one of them sounded like it might be right because it said it had moments of emotional clarity or something like that. Clara: You think that was her heart song, or? Dani: Yeah. Clara: What was it? Dani: Her heart song cracked me up, because I was just like, could you just imagine? Clara: We'll definitely get there. Dani: I just wish I could have seen it besides at the very end of it, but what [crosstalk 00:10:09] they were seeing. Clara: Yeah, from the outside. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Well, especially because there were ... God, I'm going to get into this. We'll get into it later. Okay. Got to hold our segment structure, but yes, I agree. Clara: Yeah, so we'll get to this more, but I really did like getting to see her sing again. I do think, one thing that I did want to mention now is that I do think it made sense to tie it to a chemical experience that erodes inhibitions. Because she is so inhibited, and the last time we saw her burst out in song is when she was just so overwhelmed and stressed that it burst out of her. This feels like a sort of different side of the same coin. Dani: Yeah. She's only had a couple musical moments in the show, really. Either it's from her knowing and acknowledging that she's singing and actually singing, or her freakout episode, where she sings quite a few times because she's ignoring things, or in her dreams. It's only those few things. Clara: Yeah, and all of those are kind of uninhibited moments in that way, right? Her dreams, obviously, no inhibitions there. Dani: She has no control [crosstalk 00:11:20], yeah. Clara: Yeah. I think that's sort of, when you get that overwhelmed, you also cease to have full control. Dani: Yeah. Clara: I just felt like that was a good touch, and it made a lot of sense. She comes out of her trip, of course, with a new quote-unquote "carefree attitude," but it's also kind of bullshit. What did you think of that, Dani? Dani: I mean, it's basically her trying to choose happiness again, right? It's a very similar thing. Clearly it didn't work out the first time. I don't know, it's like the carefree attitude, it doesn't work for everyone. There are people that it works for, and clearly Aiden is one of those people. Dani: She also has a lot more going on in her life. She has people who rely on her. She is a big boss in a huge corporation. There's a lot there, so it's like, she can't really afford to have a carefree attitude. It's also disingenuous to who she is. Clara: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's where I find it to be. It's disingenuous to who she is, because she does bond deeply with people. Right? Yes, caring is exhausting, but you kind of need people who care. Right? Not everyone can be Aiden, or nothing will get done in the world. Clara: Also, right, as fun as he is, it's not clear that he gives much of a shit about other people, which we see sort of coming out in her in this episode, too. As she tries to adopt this persona, she does a pretty bad job of being there for the people in her life. Dani: I definitely don't think that it's not that he doesn't care, because he does have kind of these moments where you can tell he clearly cares about Zoey. Clara: Yeah. Dani: But yeah, that's just essential to who she is. It's why people are in her life. If she didn't care so fucking much, would Mo be her best friend? I don't think so. Clara: No. Dani: You know? Clara: Prefacing this by first saying, like, you would never tell someone else to give less shits. The way that she tries to put it on as an outfit reminded me a little bit of the way that you sometimes cope with traumatic events in your life. You go to this place sometimes. It's like, "I don't give a fuck." Clara: But anyone who knows you, knows that that's bullshit. That that's Dani talking out her ass, and you give all of the fucks. Even when it hurts and you don't want to admit it. Dani: Yeah, it's definitely like a fake it till you make it situation all the time. Yeah, sometimes it is just a coping mechanism to tell yourself that you don't give a fuck, but you really, really do. I mean, I feel like there are genuinely times where I don't give a fuck about what ... It's more like what people think than anything, but it's more like an angry, "I don't give a fuck" than a sad "I don't give a fuck." Clara: Yeah, it can be a front for a couple different things. Right? It can be a front for, "I don't want to be sad," or it can be a front for like, "This person is a douche, and I don't want to be giving them any power over me." Dani: Yeah. Clara: We should probably move onto Max's arc soon, but before we do, I seem to recall that you came out of this episode with a whole ass astrological chart done for Aiden. Can I get you to share with the audience? Dani: Well, of course, it all started with me texting you and Tori, who is also, we were texting with. I was like, "I'm pretty sure he's either a Sagittarius or an Aquarius, but I'm leaning towards Aquarius." Dani: What I ended up doing for him is ... After watching the episode a couple times, I had come to the conclusion that he is an Aquarius sun, was it Scorpio moon? Scorpio moon. Clara: I think [crosstalk 00:15:12]. Dani: And Sagittarius rising, because obviously, at first glance he could seem like a Sagittarius. That whole carefree, wants to travel the world, doesn't want to be tied down kind of guy. Definitely him, but he's also weird as fuck. He's clearly- Clara: He's so weird. Dani: He's so weird. It's so funny, because that song, it's something I would never even have thought of, if he hadn't sang the words. I was like, "Wow, that so perfectly applies to that mentality and that lifestyle," in a way that I was like, "Wow." Did not expect that from that song. Dani: Yeah, the Scorpio's obviously, his Scorpio moon is this ... He has this magnetism about him, and attractiveness that just screams Scorpio. He's got a lot of energy going on there. Clara: You're not just saying that because you find him immensely sexy, right? Dani: No. I'm not just saying that. That is what he reads to me. Anyone can feel free to argue with me about this. They can. Anyone can [crosstalk 00:16:20]- Clara: Don't expect to win. Dani: ... suggestions. Clara: Don't expect her to give an inch. Dani: I've made up my mind. Clara: All right. Well, we'll move onto Max. Your actual favorite, though he definitely has some daddy issues, huh? Dani: Sure does. Clara: What did you think of his dad? Dani: I don't know how to feel about it. His dad, it's like clearly, they have their own personal issues, so it's hard to judge them at face value. Me meeting him as a character and being an outsider's perspective, he doesn't seem like that bad, but I know how that is. People will be like, "Oh, well, your parent or your grandparent or whatever is the sweetest fucking person in the world," and it's like, "Yeah, they can be to other people, but that doesn't mean that's how they treat you when other people aren't looking." Clara: Well, and I think something ... a couple episodes ago, the one where Max and Mo have that fight over the contract, he said that his dad had never said he was proud of him. That's a really specific thing, right? His dad can be as nice as we think he is and still not be giving Max the one thing he needs, which is just this validation that it's okay to be who he is. Dani: Yeah. Obviously, I mean, it's something that, it gets brought up a couple times. Not necessarily the proud thing, but it's clear that there's a big disconnect between him and not just his dad, but seemingly the rest of his family. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Since his brother and sister also work for the dad. He's clearly on the other side of the country, and ... Clara: Yeah, it is a little weird. I think I was expecting him to be a little bit more like Nathaniel's dad on Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. Just way colder and more removed. I kind of had the same reaction you did, where I was like, "Oh, he seems nice." Clara: I think you're right that it's very different when you're sort of coming in from the outside, than when you've sort of grown up with that. I do think there are a specific set of traumas that Max clearly has around wanting to make his dad proud and feel seen for the success that he has. Dani: Yeah. How did you feel about him turning down the money that his father offered him? Clara: That was the thing that irked me most in this episode, to be honest. I think it was because he was refusing to take the money, not because he thought there were some strings attached or he'd be controlled by his dad or something like that, or that he'd have to cave to his dad in any way. Right? His dad raised these concerns about the restaurants, and you could see him being like, "I don't really want to just cater to what his vision of the restaurant should be." Clara: That's not what his dad was asking at all, right? The principle felt kind of weak to me, because it was like, he didn't want to take the money because he wanted his dad to believe in him before giving him money. On the one hand, I do agree with him that money and support are not the same thing, but the way Max handled it felt a little to me like a child throwing a temper tantrum. Dani: Yeah. Because he's not just letting himself down. He's letting Mo down as well. Clara: Exactly. Exactly. Dani: Mo is super cool about it, and clearly Mo really clearly cares for Max, if he's going to put up with that. But yeah, that was something that kind of was like, I was like, "Wait, what?" I mean, I get where he's coming from. Clara: Yeah. Dani: But his dad wasn't even inherently that negative about it. He was just kind of like, "Well, I'm trying to get there. I'm trying to [crosstalk 00:20:03] see what you're seeing." Clara: It did feel a little bit like, again, like we're coming at this from the outside. We haven't seen their whole relationship, but it did feel like he was not cutting him any slack for that. It's fine if he doesn't feel ... It's one thing, again, if he personally feels slighted by it. It just feels weird. Clara: I don't know. I was talking to this ... For my book show over the summer, I interviewed this author of a very intense YA novel about conversion therapy. Dani: Oh, geez. Clara: Yeah, it was super intense, but it was also a really great book. He made this comment about how like, "I encourage gay kids with unsupportive parents to, 'If you need to keep your mouth shut, not just to survive but to get money for college or whatever else, don't feel like you owe your parents coming out if you know that they're going to be shitty about it. Just take the money and run.'" Clara: There was a little bit of that in how I felt about how Max should maybe have approached this. Okay, maybe you feel like this is not the same as support, and you want support, but that doesn't mean you should turn down the money. Dani: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that they'll be successful in getting money in some other way, but yeah. It was just one of those things where it's like, some people are really proud, though, and will not accept money from someone that they don't feel 100% right about it. Clara: Yeah. Dani: That makes sense. It does, but I think personally, if I was in that situation ... I have a very shitty relationship with my dad. If my dad offered me a sum of money to help me out, I'd be like, "Yes. Let me take that." Clara: Yeah. Dani: I feel like you owe it to me. Clara: Yeah, that's the thing. Maybe it doesn't make up for all the bullshit, but hey, I had to deal with the bullshit. I might as well get some money out of it. Dani: Yeah, but I do feel like because I ... come from a generation that very much struggles with money in general, I think it's so much easier for some of us to be like, "Yes, I will accept your money." Clara: Well, and that was part of it, was that it is really privileged to be able to turn down that sum ... Well, one, that you know somebody personally who can give you that sum of money and not even think about whether or not they lose it, is hella privileged. But to be able to turn it down is also a very privileged thing. Clara: I think that's why I felt like, "Oh, you really should not have done that without talking to Mo first," at the very least. Dani: Yeah. It's one of those things, too, where it's like, I don't know. I get it. They're trying to make a business completely on their own, I feel like, and so it's like, I don't know. It is different than getting an actual investment from people who are like, "Yes, we want to see this work." Clara: Yeah. Anyway. Dani: I'd eat at their restaurant. Clara: Was there anything else you wanted to talk about, Max related? Not the heart song, because we will get there, before we move onto Maggie. Dani: Well, didn't you want to talk about him calling Zoey out? Clara: Oh, shit. You're right. I skipped right over that. Yeah, let's talk about him calling Zoey out. That was one of my favorite moments in this entire episode, because I was basically calling her out at my screen, but of course, she can't hear me. Dani: Oh, yeah. It was like, it wasn't even just what she was saying. It was her whole fucking attitude towards it and how defensive she got immediately, when he was like, "Excuse me?" Clara: She had a very toxic vibe this episode. Dani: She really did. I don't know. Of course, it tugged at my heartstrings a little bit when he's like, "One of the reasons I love you is because you care so much," or something, or whatever. Something along those lines. Clara: Yeah. Dani: I was just like, "Ugh." Clara: I hope it does that to her, too. It looked like it devastated her a little. Dani: It seemed like it did, because she was definitely already thinking about how, I think, much she fucked up. Clara: Yeah. Dani: But then, it just really hit home when Danny Michael Davis is like, "I want to sell the company." Clara: Yeah, yeah. One of the other things I noticed about that scene was like, when she said that to Max, when she said the bullshit about care less to Max, Mo is just like, "Do, do, do," going over here. Dani: Yeah. I mean, there's already still so much fucking tension between the two of them. When she walked into Mo's apartment and the second that Max enters frame, they both just like, [inaudible 00:24:42]. You kind of see them hesitate with each other, and even ... I still love the fact that they're still willing to be there for each other, but that relationship is definitely still strained and awkward. Clara: Have we talked about Max's sign? Dani: I've said that I'm pretty sure he's a Taurus, and this makes it feel even more accurate because he's stubborn as hell. Clara: I feel like he might be a Pisces from that moment. Dani: No. His emotions are too inward and refined. Clara: Not just spilling all over the place. Dani: Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if he has water in his chart, but I'm still pretty sure that he's a Taurus sun. Clara: All right. We'll have to get you to do one soon. Dani: Yeah. Clara: All right. Should we move onto Maggie? Dani: Let's do it. Clara: Okay. I'm honestly disappointed that they went there. I know that we knew they would and that I literally was like, "This is what's going to happen," last episode. But it still just ... frustrated me. It frustrated me that this is the story that we have to tell, because I just wanted her to be able to have this good experience her first time back to work. As unprofessional as it was, I have a little trouble blaming Jenna for her art installation. Dani: That whole thing. It's like I see both sides of it. I absolutely see where Maggie's coming from, and I absolutely see where Jenna's coming from ... It's really hard to kind of pick a side there, because I mean, it is very, very unprofessional. But that guy was a big old douche canoe, so, not surprised. Dani: It's just like, you know. You can just tell that's stuff that Jenna's put up with before. I feel like she's had these instances, probably, where men hit on her and she doesn't reciprocate, and they're fucking assholes about it. It's just like- Clara: And she's had experiences [crosstalk 00:26:41] bosses. Dani: I loved it when she made the comment, though. Clara: Which comment? Dani: When she makes the comment, when he says it out loud. Clara: Oh, yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:26:47] And she's like, "We all know what you were expecting," or whatever. Dani: Yeah, because it's just like, ugh. It's so gross. I was expecting it to turn sour, but I guess not quite that sour. Clara: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I don't know. You were right from the start. He's a sleazebag. Dani: I could feel it. Clara: I do think, like you said, I sort of ... see both sides. I think Maggie's reaction makes sense. Both sides being Maggie's and Jenna's. Fuck Roger. [crosstalk 00:27:21] In the fight itself, they both said things that were way below the belt. Clara: That escalated very, very quickly. I wanted to hug them both at the end of it. I think Jenna, especially, because she just seemed like this sad and scared little girl coming out of it. It left me wondering for the millionth time this season, what her and Emily's parents must be like, and what that relationship must be. Dani: I am assuming toxic. Clara: Well, yeah. Dani: There's no mention of it. There's no mention of their parents. Who are they? Where are they? Are they even around anymore? We don't know anything. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Yeah, I definitely felt really bad for Jenna, too. I also just picked up a weird gay vibe between them, but- Clara: Between Jenna and Maggie? Dani: Yeah. Clara: No, no. I don't see that one. Dani: I was like, "What?" Clara: I'm all for the gay vibes, generally speaking. Head cannon whatever you want, but I don't see that one. Dani: It almost just, there was almost too much defensiveness there. Clara: I felt like it was more like a mother daughter thing. [crosstalk 00:28:31] I say this as somebody who has a complicated relationship with her mother and has also very embarrassingly projected that sort of maternal relationship onto bosses. Please, don't. Not my current boss, thank god, but I've had bosses who are women who are a little bit older than me. I've definitely caught myself looking for validation from them in the way that I would look for it from my mom. Dani: Oof. Clara: I definitely saw that as a mother daughter thing. Oh my god, this is so embarrassing. I need to shut up. Dani: I don't think that's ever happened to me. Clara: Congratulations. You are better adjusted. Dani: Am I, though? Clara: Or not well adjusted in different ways. Whatever. Dani: It's definitely in different ways. Clara: All right, so, let's move off this subject very quickly. Let's talk about Simon's arc, because I think this is really the meat of this episode in a lot of ways. Dani: Yeah. Clara: It was fucking intense, for one. I actually know a couple people who work on algorithm discrimination, which is ... related to what they're talking to, right? They're talking about algorithmic bias and algorithmic discrimination is related for sure. Clara: It's really hard to get tech companies to take it seriously, even when they're the ones commissioning your studies and being like, "Tell us how to fix it." They don't really want to fix it, especially if they feel like it is going to cut into their bottom line. Which, because advertising is such a huge part of what makes a lot of tech companies their money, they rely on algorithms to do that. They don't really want to spend the money to change them or to deal with the consequences of, if you change this one thing, how does it affect everything else. Dani: They were saying something ... in the episode about how people get arrested based [crosstalk 00:30:29]? Clara: Yeah. Yeah, so this was actually a big thing. I mean, it's been a big thing for a while, but one of the things to come out of the protests over the summer, Amazon had been making this facial recognition software that police were using to identify suspects. It had exactly the problem that they talked about in this episode. It didn't do a good job of recognizing black faces ... Clara: When it's not good at recognizing black faces, it kind of over reports matches. It feeds into this problem that already exists, where black people are seen as inherently more likely to be criminal. Dani: Which wouldn't surprise me if cops want to keep it that way. Clara: Yeah. This was one of the things that bugs me the most. Amazon suspended that program for one year. Honestly, felt like just trying to make people forget it, but anyway. Timnit Gebru, who is a black researcher who was fired from Google a few months ago, she worked on algorithmic discrimination, too. I actually think the paper that she said she was fired over might have had something to do with algorithmic discrimination. Clara: This is super real, both as a problem and in terms of the kinds of responses that you see, of trotting out black people to make the company look good. Also, firing black people who you hired to research it when they come up with results that maybe you don't like. It's super shitty. It's super shitty. Clara: I kind of was curious about how you felt like they handled it on the show. Dani: I really liked to see the interactions between Simon and Tatiana and Mo and their different reactions to the same thing ... I just think it's a really good storyline, and it really hits home with some of the stuff that we are currently going through. It's hard for me to have an opinion on it, because I am white, but I think that they handled it really well. I'm interested to see where they go with it Dani: I mean, the promo, which I think you should watch it, just points to things getting even worse. Clara: Yeah, with what you said, I really appreciated the scene with Simon talking to Tatiana and Mo, because I think it did a good job of breaking down this assumption that there's one view or one right way to handle it. Really showing the impossibility of him being in that position. Clara: I also did like that the episode ended on his speech, because it suggests that it's not going to be a one and done. Like you said, the teaser seems to be all about him for next episode. I would say, I mean, I'm also white, so again, maybe I'm not the ... It's hard for me to have an opinion on it. Clara: One concern I have is, on the one hand, I'm glad that we are getting a Simon arc that is independent of his relationship with Zoey, because I had sort of mentioned before that I felt like he'd been sidelined. Dani: Yeah. Clara: On the other hand, I hope that he continues to have an independent arc that isn't just about pain. Dani: Yeah. Clara: I think it's good to be aware of it, but I just, I would like to see that in other contexts. I just don't want it to be all focused on his pain. I think it's really good to bring this issue up. I think they did a decent job in this episode. Hopefully, that continues going forward. Clara: I also don't want the only things that we get from the story about Simon to be love interest for Zoey and the repository of, or the trigger for conversations about racism. I'd like him to have a fuller independent life than just those things. Dani: I feel like it's going to be a good thing. I know that I've seen John Clarence Stewart talk a lot about how he likes where they went with it and how he's excited for people to see what is going forward. Also, some of the song choices in the next couple episodes, too. Dani: I'm really excited for that, because he seems really happy with it. Clara: Yeah, me, too. Dani: But I couldn't help but wonder while I was watching it. I was like, "I really hope that they consulted the actors and people of color storytellers and stuff when they went into it," because that's really also important to have their honest truth. Clara: Well, and I wondered a lot about the composition of the writers' room, right? Are they talking about a problem that they're not addressing in their own writers' room, right? I don't know, right? I have been really coming to the writers as they come up for episodes, but anyway. I'm glad that they did it. I think you're right. John Clarence Stewart has been excited about this episode and is excited about it going forward. Clara: I am, too. I just, I hope that it continues to be done in a way that feels respectful and authentic, and also that it's not all we get for John Clarence Stewart for Simon. Because I think he's a really great character. I want to see, I want a full life for him outside of Zoey. Dani: I mean, I feel like it goes that way for any character. Just like, you don't always want to see just the painful side for them. Trauma-based stories are just so popular in general, and it's like, there's so many more stories that people can tell, for people of color or the queer community. It's like, not everything has to be a sad story. Clara: Yeah, which doesn't mean there isn't a place for the sad stories. It just means- Dani: I do think Zoey's in general does a really good job of balancing that, so I do feel like they'll come back out. It's always done a really good job at balancing the humor with all of the sad shit that's going on. Clara: Yeah, I agree with you. I think there are good signals that they'll handle it well. I'm just nervous. Dani: I'm nervous, [crosstalk 00:37:00] yeah. Clara: All right, so, the last thing I wanted to say about Simon's arc is that I really want to see Zoey make amends to Simon for the way she treated him in this episode while she was high. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Because he needed her support, and frankly what he was dealing with was really big. I think she has gotten into this head space where her dad dying is the only big thing that anyone deals with. Right? Dani: It's like, why can she not have a conversation with Simon that doesn't have to do with dad trauma? Which I had pointed out before. It's like, he has other shit going on. She's just been a shitty friend to him in general this season. Clara: Yeah. Dani: It's like, she comes to him when she needs something, but the second he needs something ... I understand that she was high when she talked to him. There was a lot going on there, but it would have been nice for her to reach out before going back into work. Clara: Yes. Dani: Be like, "Hey, it's- Clara: That's why I think she needs to make amends, right? They can't just go back to being friends, like nothing happened. She needs to fix her shit. Dani: Yeah. I would actually like for her to try, and then him being like, "No, no, no. We can't just go back." Clara: Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be very character. Dani: I just want more people to call Zoey out when she's being shitty. Clara: Those are your favorite moments. Mo doing that for her, Max doing that for her. Dani: Not to say that we don't love Zoey, because we do. It's just like, realizing when she's being selfish and- Clara: And you need friends who will hold you accountable with life. Dani: Yeah. You really do. Clara: You really do. All right, so that's what I had for the arcs. Do you want to add anything before we move to heart songs? Dani: Do you want to talk about how much we hate Danny Michael Davis? Clara: Okay, we can talk about how much we hate Danny Michael Davis. The answer is, all of it. Dani: I just, he's such an archetype of just tech industry, dude bros that ... I'm like, "Is he supposed to look like Mark Zuckerberg?" Because ... Clara: I wondered that, too. I think they must have cast at least a little bit for that. Dani: The first time I saw him, I was like, "The Social Network?" But yeah. I just, I can't stand him. I mean, there's moments where clearly, he has some caring bones in his body. Clara: You know, I actually disagree with you on this, because I don't think it ever comes out when it's not related to him somehow. Dani: Well, I mean, he genuinely seemed to care when Zoey was talking about how her dad passed away and stuff. Clara: But right afterward, what he says is, "You know, this isn't the same, [crosstalk 00:39:31] not to say that this is the same as your thing, but let me tell you about how SPRQPOINT burned me." Dani: I don't know. I guess I just know so many people who do that, that it just, to me, that doesn't mean they don't care. They just, it's easy for ... Sometimes people say it more as like a, "I'm trying to make you feel better, because I can slightly relate to you," or whatever. Dani: I know so many people who do that. It's just their way of being able to have something to say in the conversation. Being like, "You're not alone." Clara: Yeah, yeah. Dani: I don't know, he's just so [squicky 00:40:04]. He goes so back and forth. Clara: Danny Michael Douche. Dani: Just cannot, it just rubs you the wrong way. Then also, I'm like- Clara: The scene with him and Simon. [inaudible 00:40:14]. Dani: Oh, that was so bad. That was so bad. Clara: Everything about that was creepy and gross. Dani: I know, I was just like, ugh. You just see it and fucking of course, Simon is just such a professional that he's like, you could see it on his face. Obviously, DMD doesn't give a shit or notice, because he doesn't care, but it is written all over his face how uncomfortable he is. He doesn't say anything. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Just like his phone call to Zoey, though. Now I'm just thinking about it, and I'm like, ugh. Just even the tone of his voice, I'm like, "How did you not notice?" Clara: Also super entitled, right? The same bullshit. He's like, "Well, she's my employee. Doesn't matter that she has the day off. I'll come to her. I'll track her fucking phone." No. Dani: Anyways, we don't like him. Clara: All right. Heart songs? Dani: Let's do it. Clara: There were just four heart songs in this episode. In order of appearance, they were Unwritten by Natasha Bedingfield, which is the one Aiden sings; Starships by Nicki Minaj, sung by Zoey, Aiden, DMD, and a bunch of randos; Numb by Linkin Park, sung by Max; and Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood by Nina Simone, which is the one that Simon sings. So, let's start with favorites. Which heart song were you feeling the most this week, Dani? Dani: This was actually a really hard one, to be honest. They were all solid in their own different ways. They were all so different, every single one of the songs was just completely different. I loved Aiden's song Unwritten. I just like hearing him sing, too. I know you were like, "Oh, I don't know if I want him to have heart songs," or whatever, but I just think he sings really, really well. It was just a good number. I also just like that nostalgia. Dani: I thought Starships was really fun. I'm not even a big fan of that song to begin with, but it was just, looked like it was so much fun. They were having a good time. Clara: The group numbers are just always so fun. Dani: Yeah, that's true. I'm not going to choose Simon's because I feel like that's where you're going to go. Of course, it's me. My favorite was Numb by Linkin Park, sung by Max. For one, I love that song, but that song just takes me back to middle school. Apparently the song just turned 18 years old. Clara: Oh my god, I feel so old. Dani: Apparently the song just turned 18 years old. I'm like, "Damn. What?" I remember when that song came out. I love that song in general, but I really loved what they did with it. They changed the musical output of it. They made that song their own for the show. That's not how the song sounds normally. Dani: It's like a screamo song, for one. Hip hop, but they turned it into, I don't know how to describe music very well, but it's more like, melodic and ... Clara: It was a ballad, almost. Dani: It's a ballad, yeah. Skylar Astin, just like his ... Clara: You're such a Skylar Astin stan. Everybody already knows, Dani. Dani: It's so true, but it was just so good. He's really good at just being [crosstalk 00:43:23] the character. So emotional. He puts his emotions into the song. You can feel it. Clara: I agree with you that it was a really emotional performance, but you know me well. You were right. For me, Simon's rendition of Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood definitely stole the show. John Clarence Stewart put up this really great post on Instagram, which I think everyone should check out, about what the song meant to him and how he learned about Nina Simone and his music education in, I think it was in college. Clara: Yeah, definitely check that out, because I was like, "Oh, this is amazing. I just love hearing people talk about things that they are passionate about." It's also an incredible song on its own, for one. For two, the choreography was amazing. Really, really intense. I feel like I've been noticing choreo a lot in this season, but even within that, this was a standout performance in that respect. Clara: While I liked the other performances in this episode, I didn't feel like most of them had the same gravitas. Max's was the most heart songy, other than this one, but they were dealing with really different kinds of pain, I think. Simon's performance, I just found it so arresting. I just couldn't take my eyes off it either time that I watched. Clara: Also, not a fan of Linkin Park. Dani: What? Why? Clara: I mean, honestly, it's just not my music. I don't really know how to answer why, other than that it doesn't grab me. Dani: I mean, it came out [inaudible 00:44:53] they were really popular when I was in middle school. I don't know if I would have been such a big fan of them if I was older when they had first kind of rose to fame. Just because I really related to that angst that they sing about. Dani: Yeah, I've always loved Linkin Park. I've had kind of an on and off relationship with them. I think any Linkin Park fan would know exactly why. It's that really bad remix that they did with Jay-Z. We don't talk about it. Clara: I think for you, it was Linkin Park. For me, it was Nine Inch Nails at that time, where that was my [crosstalk 00:45:35] angsty ... Yeah, I think you're just a little too young for it, right? Honestly, the last album that I listened to was the one that came out when I was in high school, which I'm blanking on what it's called, but it had We're In This Together Now on it. Dani: I do love how the guys from Nine Inch Nails now make movie scores. Clara: Oh, yeah, Trent Reznor does. Dani: Yeah, and Atticus Ross. Clara: Speaking of The Social Network, I think he did The Social Network one. Dani: Sure did. Clara: Yeah, but yeah. I find the obsession that I had with Trent Reznor in high school very embarrassing now on a number of levels. Dani: I've had many of those. Clara: That was my Linkin Park. Dani: I've had many of those. I was actually never into anyone in Linkin Park, though. Mine was more like a Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance and the lead singer of Good Charlotte. Clara: Oh, man. All right, well, we should move onto Aiden's number, but before we do, I do want to put a quick call out to our listeners. When I was researching the music for this episode, I noticed that when you Google Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood, the top result is the cover from The Animals. They released it only a year after the original, and it is pretty iconic, but it took me almost a full page of results to find anything that mentioned it wasn't an original. Clara: The original was written for Nina Simone, who's a black singer and pianist. It was written by Benny Benjamin, Horace Ott, and Sol Marcus. At least Benny Benjamin and Horace Ott are black. I wasn't sure about Sol Marcus, but if you do a search and you see the card that highlights The Animals version at the very top ... Because it is one of those cards that Google does, where it's like emphasized and highlighted, I feel like you might not realize that. Clara: I'd like to ask our listeners to run that search on their phone for Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood. It works a little bit differently on desktops, so that's why I'm suggesting phone. Click the three dots on the top right of the card that shows it. Select Send Feedback, and you can ask Google to either change the result they highlight in the card at the top, or at least make it clearer that it's a cover of a Nina Simone song. Clara: I just think that's really important, especially in a context of this episode. It really struck me that this is a song written by black songwriters for a black singer, and when you do a search, the thing that comes up is a band full of white men. Anyway, help us out. Do that little task. If they get enough feedback, they do change these things. I just heard about some similar thing where they were saying that kimchi originated in the wrong place or something like that ... If a bunch of us send this feedback, hopefully we'll be able to fix this. Clara: Okay. Aiden's number now. What did you think, Dani? Dani: I liked it. I just thought it was cute. I don't know, it's so funny how I'm just noticing just even between the different characters how their own each musical number is. It felt so just in character for him. His choreography and gestures and the way that he sang it, it's different than the choreography and stuff of other characters. Dani: He kind of just seemed more lax and chill and you know. Clara: Yeah. Dani: His little dance that he does [crosstalk 00:49:10] walking back to the couch. I don't know. I just, such a little cutie. I was actually kind of sad that him and Zoey don't have any kind of connection. Clara: I feel like they're developing this brother sister thing. Dani: That's what it's feeling like. That red herring of the Sex and Candy song, I guess. Clara: Sex and Candy. Dani: I mean, they have these few very, very small moments where it's like you feel like maybe there might be something, but for the most part I don't think we're getting anything. That makes ... I just wanted her to bang it out, man. Clara: Well, I loved him singing the song. Cute, Australian guy singing a girl pop one hit wonder. Yes, please. I was a little frustrated by them making it a heart song, because it just didn't feel like a heart song by the definition that we've gotten used to. He didn't have any intense emotions that were spilling out of him. This was just being chill, kind of like you said. Clara: It didn't feel like it was motivated that he would sing a heart song. Dani: Yeah. It just, sometimes it feels like, not just this moment, but I think there's been a couple others where it's almost like ... she's giving context and thinking of a song or something. Clara: Yeah. Dani: Then it just comes [crosstalk 00:50:21]. Clara: I think that it did feel a little bit forced. Linnear was saying that they just wanted to find a way to make him sing, and I think that's right. Right? Obviously, he sings really well. He's on the show. You got to use that talent, but it just felt like a little bit of a violation of the heart song logic to me. Dani: [crosstalk 00:50:41] I feel like there's been other moments like that. I'll have to think about it and look back, but I feel like there's been other moments like that, too. Clara: I think there were, and in season one, I definitely [crosstalk 00:50:51] feel like there were. Yeah, good song. He's a great singer, absolutely cutie, but you know. You got to have a little heart to have a heart song. Dani: He has a heart. Clara: I know, I know. I just wanted to say it. It was funny. All right. The last song we have to talk about is Starships, which gave me major deja vu, because Alex Newell sings this song in Glee. Do you remember that? Dani: No. Clara: Yeah. Yeah. Dani: I've never finished Glee. I don't know when it happened. I know I stopped watching at some point, and I watched it super late, too. But I stopped watching after Finn died at some point. Clara: I don't remember exactly when it was. I just remember that performance, and so I was like, "Wait a second. What's happening? Who's singing? What's going on?" Dani: It's just a very interesting song. Clara: Yeah. It was a really fun number. I love that it was Zoey, Aiden, and Danny Michael Davis singing it together. They just felt like such a weird collection of people. Dani: It was so weird. I don't know, it was just really funny. I feel like their reactions, too, were in character almost. The way that Aiden kind of does little things when they're dancing around. He's just- Clara: Yeah. Dani: Then, she almost gets hit by a car. Clara: Oh my god. I love that they had her stand there for a little bit, and then the other people on drugs are like, "Zoey, get out of the way." Dani: Then, they're like, "I don't want to walk anymore." Clara: I almost forgot about that. That was so good. Dani: Yeah, it's little moments like that that I'm like, "Oh, yeah. They're pulling off the high thing really well." Clara: All right. Well, that's it for heart songs. We'll move to final thoughts. I liked this episode, even if I didn't like Zoey in it. The highlights for me were definitely the dolphin line, Max calling Zoey out when she was being a douche, and Simon's performance at the end. I also liked that Jenna and Maggie made up, though to be honest, I kind of forgot that storyline between my first and second watchings. I think it just ... The other things just shown a lot more. Dani: Yeah. Clara: But I think I'm kind of in the position I was a few episodes ago, where I'm feeling like this is a great standalone episode. It's really fun, but we're five episodes into the season. I feel like I'm still waiting to see where the show is going to go this season. Clara: Happy to be along for the ride. I think it's great comedy, great musical. I just enjoy the show, but I am little bummed that there isn't more of a through line for the season. Dani: Yeah. Clara: What about you? What did you think of the episode? Dani: I thought it was fun. I definitely felt like it was also kind of a little bit of a filler episode. There is some really big shit that happens, and I feel like the Simon thing gets strung about. Then, they make it into a huge cliffhanger at the end. Yeah, the Maggie and Jenna thing didn't stand out to me too, too, too much either. Dani: I thought it was kind of fast, the way that their relationship kind of disintegrated. I'm like, "Does this mean Jenna's out? Is she gone for good? What's going on there?" Clara: I know that if you're not ... There are contractual things where you can only do so many episodes, if you're at a certain level. Dani: Yeah. Clara: I think she's probably out for the season, but ... Dani: Yeah. An arc is usually three or four episodes. I do think there's also a lot of restrictions with COVID. I was saying in my notes ... wondering why Leif and Tobin weren't in this episode at all. Then, in the last episode, they were barely in it. I'm just curious if that's [crosstalk 00:54:35]- Clara: Only one of the, Yasmeen was in it, but not Mackenzie. Dani: Or the other girl. Yeah ... I do think it has to be something that's a COVID restriction, like only so many people can be on set. Only so many people can be there, because I mean, they are regulars, too. They are credited for every episode, whether they're in it or not. Clara: Yeah. Dani: I just found that interesting. It could be one of those things as well. Clara: Yeah, so overall, you liked it. You didn't like it. Where do you fall? Dani: Oh, I liked it. I definitely liked it. I did want to mention that I really loved the moment that Emily goes into the baby's room and sees what Jenna left for her. I just thought it was really sweet. For whatever reason, I kind of teared up a little bit during certain thing, but for some reason that just made me straight up just start crying. I didn't know why. I just found it so sweet, especially because there's just so much tension there, I feel like. Clara: Yeah. I feel like it was a moment where ... I really liked that Emily went to check on Jenna in this episode, after she comes in at the dinner table and there's this icy conversation between her and Maggie. I just love that she was like, "We're going to check on her." And David, who has just sat down, is like, "Okay." Dani: I thought that was ... His whole reactions, to think he's just like, "Okay." Just going to listen to my wife. Clara: Yeah. I feel like though, that moment and I think maybe this is what you're feeling, was that it was kind of a moment of Emily seeing her sister for who she is and appreciating her for who she is. Because this was such a beautiful gesture and so specific to Jenna. She had been kind of resistant to it earlier on, and so I think she saw the way that Jenna had this vision that was really loving and kind and gave her something that she didn't even realize how much she wanted. Clara: I think it just sort of helped her realize, "Oh, yeah, maybe I'm too tough on her. I don't take enough time to appreciate the good things in her." Dani: I feel like they've been too busy and stuff to think about taking pictures and all of that. It's just like these little candid moments of beauty. I just thought it was just so heartwarming. Clara: Yeah. Well, that's a good note to end on. I do think that's pretty much all for this week. Listeners, thanks for joining us. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and share your five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts, like I said at the top. Clara: If you want to follow us on Twitter or Instagram, we are there at Our Extra Pod. See you next week. Bye. Dani: Bye. Simon: (singing)