Clara: Hello, and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara. Dani: And I'm Dani. Clara: And today we're talking about episode 206: Zoey's Extraordinary Reckoning, written by Zora Bikangaga and directed by Anya Adams. Why don't you start us off at the episode summary, Dani? Dani: Well, IMDB says, "Simon wrestles with his feature at SPRQ Point after calling out racial bias at the company. Mo and Max pitch a new investor for their business venture." Clara: This was a really meaty episode so I think we can skip some of the small talk and just dive right in. What did you think about it, Dani? What were your initial impressions? Dani: I mean, this episode made me incredibly emotional. It's so raw and full of pain, and it was such a different kind of pain than the show has discussed before. I love that it wasn't an episode about Zoey. She was in it obviously but it wasn't about her. And I love that they got so many black artists involved in this episode. And I love that they worked specifically with the actors involved in the storylines. It was just such a beautiful episode that they did so very well. It probably could have so easily gone to shit, not been executed well, so I like that it was. Clara: We had many worries that we expressed last time. Dani: Yeah. I just feel like it's a really large conversation that needs to be had. And I've already told so many people, I was like, "Even if this show isn't your thing, you don't like musical numbers, it's not your jam, you should at least watch this episode because it's so important and powerful." Clara: Yeah. I agree with everything you just said in terms of the people that they got involved. I think you mentioned to me that they brought on a black choreographer to work with some of the musical numbers. There were so many black dancers in this episode in a lot of ensemble numbers. It really just was very impressive from that perspective and from the perspective of all the conversations that I've read about and all the interviews I've seen. Just the conversations between the actors, and the writers, and all of the crew, it feels like it was really thoughtfully done. Dani: Have you read anything about why they decided to tell this story? Has anyone said that in an interview? Clara: I mean, there's a little bit in the Variety article that we'll talk about later. They mostly talked about it in terms of the George Floyd protests in June. One of the things that I remember seeing from John Clarence Stewart, who obviously wasn't the writer on it but is heavily involved in this, was that it felt important to him to do because during that, he had all these non-black friends who were reaching out to him, these white friends who were reaching out to him. It was something that was happening to other people and not something that was affecting him and it just sort of made him realize how much of himself he'd cut off to move around in the world and in the industry. Dani: Oh, wow. And he basically says something like that in this episode. Clara: Yeah. I mean, I think that's like how it came up in the interview. Dani: Like not being a 100% himself. Clara: And I think the writer Zora said something in there too about, not more on the why but just that they had a lot of conversations in the writers room. I think they started writing for the season in like June or July so it was just a big part of the conversation there. Dani: That makes sense. Clara: But, yeah, this episode really blew me away. It was really intense, and complex, and beautifully executed, as you said, just across the board. There's pieces that really stick with me. I loved the conversation between Mo and Simon on the staircase, where Simon is trying to just figure out what he's going to do and gaming it out. I loved the conversation between Simon and Tobin at SPRQ Point after the disastrous town hall. I loved Tobin's heart song. I loved all of the songs in this episode. But it's like you said, for Tobin, there's always been more under that jokey exterior. And I think the way they brought that out in this episode, while also being clear that he is a funny person and humorous part of him but it's also a defense mechanism, I just thought that was really great. So episode as a whole, I loved it. Dani: I've always believed in my boy, Tobin. Clara: I know [crosstalk 00:04:27]- Dani: I could always just see the secret seriousness behind his character and I always knew that there was more than meets the eye. He's shown it on a few occasions. I mean, clearly at that time he is saying, don't speak about feeling like he was losing Leif. This time around though he was actually really receptive to Zoey's help, which before he wasn't. And he is definitely opening up more and changing and he's still unapologetically himself. And it's not always just an act, it's just who he is. And I think I love- Clara: Like the DMs? Dani: ... his character so much because like... Yes. The DM one kills me. I think I love his character so much because I know and am friends with so many men who mask their pain and traumas with humor. I mean, I do the same thing sometimes. Clara: I think it's more that second part. Tobin is definitely your character. Dani: Tobin is like the bro side of me because I definitely have a bro side. Clara: All right. Well, we should deep dive. There's a lot to discuss. Really, just two arcs. The main thing that we will be talking about is the fallout from Simon's comments at the press conference last episode and the whole big plot line around racism at SPRQ Point and in the world. And then there's this like teensy arc with Max and Mo where they pitch Danny Michael Davis on the restaurant. Let's get through that first because I think it's going to be really quick and then we can rest in the rest of this episode. Thoughts? Dani: It feels like this whole struggle in trying to get the restaurant to happen plot point is coming to an end and it looks like the next episode is going to be the opening of it when we get back from hiatus. I'm glad we're moving on from it because I feel like it could start to stale the two characters because it's just been this one problem for them for the last like three episodes. I liked the part with Max bonding with his old co-workers though, over fixing that glitch in the app. It was nice to see Max back in that environment but it also makes me feel like him staying solely with the restaurant might not be his future. He loves being there with all of them too much, and being lightly objectified by McKenzie as well. I really hope that's not a thing though. Clara: No. I definitely like her a lot better in my [inaudible 00:06:42] where she is gay. Yeah, I know you think she's bi. I saw your comment. To each their own queer head [crosstalk 00:06:48]- Dani: I mean, I totally was like... My comment is more in reference to like, she could still be bi, but I saw her initially as gay as well. Clara: Okay. Yeah. So she totally could still be bi, I just like, in my head she's gay. Dani: Or, I know many lesbian women who also just happen to love Skylar Astin. He transcends. Clara: Touché. I think you're right. The restaurant angle, it was a great way to get these two characters together, to get Max and Mo in a room together, but it is all the little sort of gently pushing it along as it tries to get started stuff. It is starting to get a little bit stale. I agree with you. I really enjoyed seeing Max back at SPRQ Point with his co-workers, and it kind of made me think that like, maybe he's going to try to hire them. Expand this into, I don't know if it's like a franchise or just make the app more appy and more central. But it definitely planted a seed in my brain of like there's... He's going to be doing more software stuff. It's not just going to be this one thing. Dani: For sure. Clara: I think I really only have one other thought about this episode, which is related to that. Not this episode- Dani: The arc. Clara: ... about the restaurant arc, which is that, Max should have asked for more money. Who taught that boy how to negotiate? Dani: Yes. But I also feel like it was extremely awkward for him since it was his old boss that he was pitching to. And I just think that he was so on the fence about accepting, basically guilt money, because he basically turned down his dad for guilt money as well. A different kind of guilt, but still. Clara: Do you think that was... I was going to say, I don't know if it was really guilt from his dad. I genuinely... I don't know. I feel like I need to see Max and his dad go to a therapy session together at some point. I still have trouble seeing that as guilt money from his dad so much as his dad trying to support him and it just not being what Max wants. Dani: I guess for me it's like, my dad's definitely a deadbeat dad kind of situation so he's always every once in a while being like, "Oh, here's some money to feel better about the fact that I wasn't there for you in your childhood." But I know his dad's definitely different. His dad was there for raising him for sure. I mean, they've never discussed his mother though. I don't know what the story is there. Clara: They haven't. Honestly, that was most of what I had to say about this arc. I think that you hit all the main points. So let's move on to the main one. I just end-to-end loved this arc. I like how the episode started, where they kept that opening melody to Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood lingering from the last episode. And I really liked that early confrontation between Simon and Zoey in the elevator. Because with everything that Simon was going through, and just all the adrenaline that just must have been coursing through his veins in that moment, he was very direct with her. And she needed that. She needed somebody to be direct with her and tell her that she fucked up. Dani: I mean, I felt so much for Simon. Zoey just bombards him in the elevator when he's clearly anxious and upset and needs space. She just kind of sucks there because she's defending herself at first when it's just obvious that he was trying to tell her before. It's just upsetting that just none of this stuff connects for her. Clara: Well, I think it does connect with her, it just always takes a little longer. She lets her mouth get ahead of her and she says things that she shouldn't and so she does this damage before she can get it. When I was watching the episode, especially the second time, I really found myself drawn to Simon and all of the things that his silence said in this episode. I just can't imagine how frustrated and powerless he must have felt sitting there while all of his white co-workers just go on and on. And like he said in the elevator, he's still processing. And there is a lot of anxiety that he's dealing with about speaking up and the effect of that on his career, on his life, on his relationships. And at that point in the episode, no one else has spoken up for him or stood with him. Dani: I noticed that. And then you have Tobin who tries to run up to him and be like, "Yo, dude. Thanks for that." I mean, I just love his reactions to everyone in this episode like he's just done. Simon's just done. It's so apparent in his face. Even the whole town hall thing, which is just so misguided in general. Clara: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Dani: I cringed so hard at the white people's anecdotes. I was like, "Oh God." My stepfather is black. It's like, "Oh." I just feel like in that situation, if you are going to have something like that, just don't let the white people speak. Clara: One of the other things that I think that seemed to show is that it puts so much pressure on the handful of people who are not white in that situation to then be the ones to speak up when they still haven't really seen any institutional support. I mean, Tobin obviously has his other issues that we learn about later in the episode when he passes it on but all of the people of color in that scene pass it on and like, yes, I am sure that some of that is they don't feel like this is the space for them, this is the forum for them. But I also think it's just a huge amount of pressure. To have done what Simon did, which took so much bravery already, and then to be sat down with all of your co-workers and asked to just speak off the cuff about your feelings on race in the workplace. I guess what I would say is, you shouldn't do that. Dani: Yeah. You shouldn't. The whole thing's... No. No. You can open the floor for people to speak but I guess more be like, "Hey, if you want to shoot me an email or write me something and put it in my box," or whatever, I feel like that's a better way to go about that. Clara: Or what she did with Tobin later in the episode. Because sometimes you do need somebody to push you to open up a little. And I think that, at the same time, asking somebody to do that in public, it's just huge. That's too much. But going back to what you're saying, Zoey is a fucking mess in this episode because she is trying so hard but just stepping in it every single time. Dani: I think that's what I love about this episode though, is just how accurate she is. She just feels so real. Clara: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It was super cringey, and for me, at least, unfortunately, somewhat relatable, but it also felt very authentic to who she is as a character. She wants to be there for the people in her life and she tries so hard but she gets really mired in her own perspective and point of view and that makes it hard for her to genuinely empathize with them and listen and see them properly. My friend Lauren texted me, she was like, "Have you seen the episode?" I was like, "Yeah." She said, "I just kept screaming, "Zoey, no," at my screen." Clara: But I think that scene with her and Simon before the town hall, where she tells him he was right and she needs to listen, she says that, and then she does the exact same thing that he just the day before told her not to do and that she, in the elevator, expressed some sort of understanding that that was what she did, which is, she didn't hear him when he says like, "Are you sure this is the right idea?" Because she is so busy just rushing to try to fix the situation. Dani: She basically just needs to do a whole lot of listening and just sitting there. Clara: Yeah. And I mean, she gets there but she has blind spots, as she says, and Mo and Simon have to point them out to her repeatedly. Back to Tobin though. That scene with Tobin where he runs up to him, I thought it was such a good scene for all the reasons you mentioned. I really felt like it was that sort of start of that like, support is not this wishy-washy sympathy thing through line, it has to be actually doing something and standing up. They come from very different places but both Zoey and Tobin really want to help and yet neither of them is actually doing it at that stage in the episode. What'd you think about that scene with Tobin and Simon? Dani: That scene was also kind of cringe but you could see Tobin's face falling during... He knows he's disappointing him but he's just not ready to do anything about it. Clara: I mean, you're absolutely right. He's not ready yet. But as we sort of approach more of the climax of the episode where Danny Michael Davis tells Zoey that Simon needs to retract his statement, I feel like all this stuff comes to head even more so. So Zoey says to Danny Michael Davis that she doesn't think it's a good idea but she does it anyway. First, of course, going to her other black friend for advice. Mo is somebody that Zoey is used to seeking advice from. She does it all the time for so many things in her life, but it's also really exhausting for him, as he points out to her, to be the person in general who she is relying on for that, but also specifically in this case where doing that brings up his own experiences with racism and his own traumas. Clara: And there is this great article in Variety, that I mentioned earlier, where they talk to Zora, and to John Clarence Stewart, and I think a couple of other people, but Zora said, "As a black person with my white friends, these conversations I've had are reflected in the conversation that Zoey and Mo has." And there's a lot of empathy in that conversation when Mo just tells her directly, you can't do this. But he is also very frank and direct. There's no pussyfooting around. Dani: I mean, thankfully Mo's really good at doing that. Clara: Yes. Dani: I loved it. How he starts at like, "Look, Zoey, I love you but..." and goes on. I just loved that speech so much because they're basically addressing the fact that Mo is at times essentially the magic black friend trope. It's nice to see a call out for that. Clara: Yeah. No. I a 100% agree. Zoey does rely on him so much all the time for everything and I don't even think she's really aware of how much she relies on him and how much she puts on him. Dani: Yeah. I mean, like he says, it's emotionally exhausting. Clara: Yeah. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. Not only did she need to be called out on it but that it was a good way the show to acknowledge the way that it has perpetuated that. One of the other things that the writer, that Zora talked about was how he related to Tobin as a first-generation immigrant. He's from Uganda. He said... Yes. More quotes. He said, "There are ways that first-gens differentiate ourselves to assimilate, to differentiate, and say we're the model minority, and all that does is condone and reinforce an environment of racism." Clara: I'm not a first-generation immigrant at all but I think about that model minority myth shit and assimilation shit with respect to Judaism a lot. Because I think a lot of Ashkenazi Jews assimilated in ways that are really similar to what he describes. And certainly that's true in my family. There's little things, I mean, they're not even little things, but like, my dad and his sisters refuse to speak Yiddish because they didn't want to be marked as Jewish among their peers. I think about the way that doing that... you're doing it to survive to a certain extent and also because you do want to fit in, like we're social creatures. But it does, it plays into those myths about the good and the bad immigrants. Clara: And it absolutely makes us complicit. It also costs us a lot of what makes us unique. Like going back to just the language thing. Yiddish is almost a dead language at this point. So that part of Tobin's journey really resonated with me and I know that Tobin's journey resonated with you a lot. What was the sort of biggest point of connection for you? Dani: I like that they started the conversation with the clearly very racist joke that they give towards them, when they're like, "Good thing we outsourced it to Slumdog." It's so fucked up. I don't know why people think this kind of shit is funny. It's still a very prevalent thing in like bro gamer culture to be casually or not so casually racist. I mean, they still say, "That's gay." They still say this stuff that is so politically incorrect and they're like, "Oh, it's fine. We're just fucking around," and it's like, "But you're not." Clara: I think I heard that. I saw some article had called that hipster racism or whatever, where people will say, "I'm not racist because I don't mean it," and it's like, "But you're still fucking doing it." One, I don't think that that's even remotely true, but two, even if you are "not racist" and you're doing it, you're doing it around a whole bunch of people who you don't know. You're telling them that it's okay. Dani: Even besides that, I think what really started to hit me... I mean, even obviously Tobin's song. Just like the conversation that he has with Zoey afterwards when she gets him to open up. At first he's taking it as a joke. I mean, he, of course, made me laugh. He's made me think about all the tough questions, racial equality, corporate bias, why does Simon look so damn good in a suit? I love his character and that he plays it off like that. But just the fact that he was finally able to open up to her... I literally cried so hard when he said, "I respect Simon for speaking out. I just don't want to stir the pot." Dani: Because I've had so many family members and friends tell me this all the time about being first-gen. It makes me so sad but I'm glad that they're having this conversation because there's so many first-gen people who just don't want to stir the pot. They just want to just keep going and everything's better for them if they just pretend. It's really sad. I obviously don't have to deal with that because I have white privilege. Even if I grew up mixed, it's totally not the same for me. And I grew up in a town that is heavily minority. There was lots of Mexican families that were first-gen and lots of South and East Asian community around me. It's something that I feel like really hit me when I hear conversations like this because I can think back to being a kid and growing up with people who are experiencing this, and it just hits you. Clara: Yeah. I agree with you. That was a really good conversation to have and a really important one. I have been struck a lot, and in this episode again, by just how rare those conversations are. And especially like within community, those conversations are... I remember just around the election, reading all these articles about how a lot of Jews in Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities were pro-Trump. And I just like cannot fucking fathom that because it's like, this is somebody who is overtly anti-Semitic and a whole bunch of other shit, but as a Jew how can you be okay that? Especially so much of the ultra-Orthodox community in America is people who are direct descendants of Holocaust victims and survivors. It really fucks with me that we don't have those conversations within our communities enough. Dani: I mean, and this is like, every minority community has this issue, unfortunately. Like in the Latin American communities you have a lot of people who are pro-Trump and they even feel like, "Yeah, we should build the wall. People shouldn't be able to come over here." Did you ever watch One Day at a Time? Clara: No. Dani: It's a great show. I highly recommend it. They had an episode that they released actually at the beginning of quarantine. They completely animated the episode. And they had Lin-Manuel Miranda in it as a guest star, as one of the family members. And there's this whole conversation between two sides of the family that are basically pro-Trump and who aren't, and just the tensions that it can bring up in family dynamics. I don't know. It's so hard to hear shit like that. How they support someone who is just so openly hateful. It's almost like some people who are minorities forget what it was like for their family members to come here. Clara: And it's like a cycle of abuse. You go through that shit as a first-generation person, and especially for the people who were first-gen in the 20th century or earlier there was so much bad shit. I mean, it still happens now. I say back then but there's all these attacks that are happening against Asian Americans in San Francisco in the Bay Area right now. It's the same thing. It's people getting attacked and then their response to that is to be small and to be scared and to try not to make waves. And so you go through this cycle of just keep your head down and get through it. But it perpetuates racism, it perpetuates anti-immigrant sentiment. It does all these horrible things. And until we can start having conversations about that, you can't make progress. You can't have Tobins who stand up and do what they need to do. Dani: Yeah. It's hard because like post World War II, people like to be like, never forget, but it's like, where is that being shown? Because, for one, I didn't even really learn all that much about World War II until I started teaching myself about it. They barely teach that shit in school. They barely scratched the surface of what that was actually like and what happened. I didn't even know about the whole Japanese internment camps thing until I was in high school. I had no clue. Clara: You went to high school in California, right? Dani: Yeah. Clara: It's where most of them were. Dani: Yeah. It's just such a history repeating itself. Bullshit. Over and over again. I don't know how people can see these ICE areas and not equate that with basically being internment camps. What the fuck? And then they have that anecdote later on in the episode basically saying like, "Oh, that person was just like casually made a joke." I was like, "I'm going to call ICE on you," or whatever. It's fucked up. It makes me so mad. Clara: I mean, yes, it's fucked up. Nope, it shouldn't happen. Dani: No, it shouldn't. Clara: I don't know. I think that's why these conversations are important because like I said, it is sort of these... these are cycles of abuse. History repeats itself because we react to the immediate stimuli. I mean, I told you about that book that I read, How Jews Became White People, which I should say, referring to Ashkenazi Jews though, the book itself is like a little dated and doesn't get into some of the complexities. But so much of it is about that. It's about that Jews after World War II were understandably freaked out about what might happen to them and so they did whatever they could to fit in, and now Jews are largely seen as white people, except when they're not. And because of that, there is this alignment with whiteness and with racism. Clara: So much of that story is about the way that Jews became white people was by creating this opposition that they're not black. That we're not black. And just to gloss this one more time, there are absolutely black Jews. This book glosses over it. I think that's just why it needs to happen. The other part of the Jewish story to me is the Israel story and the way that Jews who understandably wanted a place that was theirs, that felt safe, in the service of that have created the system of apartheid and oppression against Palestinians. It's hard. It's hard to have those conversations and to figure out what do you do about it that it's really important. Dani: And I know that you and I have talked about this before but it's just like, would these conversations even be happening if the masses of human beings weren't basically in lockdown? Having to think, really fucking think, about shit that's going on. If the George Floyd murder had happened not during the pandemic, would people have cared as much? Clara: I mean, I think that's exactly right. That people are sort of forced to sit with it, but then what happens when it ends? Dani: That's why I'm glad that we're still having these conversations and that TV shows are starting to incorporate these conversations into their writing because it's just something that we need to constantly bring up. Clara: Yeah. Anyway, we should get back to the episode. I feel like, I wouldn't say it's exactly off topic but we definitely rambled. These conversations are hard. They make people rambly. Anyway, I don't want to repeat the entire Variety article, is how we started on this, but I will put a link to Instagram and the episode description. And I do recommend checking it out because I didn't even get into any of like John Clarence Stewart's comments here and that is all worth reading as well. But for now, let's talk about the resolution to this story. Simon goes to Danny Michael Davis's office to resign his position but thanks to Tobin stepping up, they instead forge a plan to talk to the board and make some changes to the company. What did you think of this as an ending? Dani: I like it. I do think that we need happier endings to these kinds of stories. I think I've read comments about, "Oh, that's just super unrealistic." And it's like, yeah, it feels that way because no one's doing anything about it. And I'm just like, I don't know. Basically the whole last half of that episode I feel like I'm just a wreck and I cried like a lot. I loved that when... I mean, I fucking hate Danny Michael Davis. We've talked about this. He's fucking the worst. When he's basically saying he's going to be a hero in the situation and all of them are like, "You're not a hero in this situation." I'm glad that they called that out. I don't know. Clara: I did also like when he's like, "Did you get chills?" And everyone says no except for Tobin. Dani: And he's like, "Yeah, I kind of did." And I can't tell if he was serious or if he was just playing that whole like, I'm trying to impress my boss even though he's the worst. I don't know. Clara: Fuck no. Dani: But before we even talk about the end end result, I forgot to mention the conversation that Mo and Simon had in the staircase. Clara: Oh, shit. Which is like one of my favorites in this entire episode. Dani: Yeah. There's like such a realness and rawness in the conversation that happens between them. Of course, I was crying again, but you can tell the emotions that Simon is feeling is something that John Clarence Stewart has felt. It's there. Those are definitely real tears in his eyes. That did not feel like a performance, that conversation that they were having. Clara: He talks in that article about just how some days they'd finish a scene and he would just go to his dressing room and just sob because it was so real and called up so many emotions and real experiences he's had in his life. Dani: I loved that scene. That was probably one of my favorite scenes in the whole episode. And I love that more Mo is like, "You're such a gorgeous black man." Just all of it. I just love that. And I love that actually at the end of that, Zoey comes up, and she's like, "I just want to say I'm sorry," and that's it. She didn't try to offer some kind of speech or advice or anything. She's finally learning. Clara: And I like that he kind of like called out, that's a thing that she does. She says the apology, he says he's going to quit and she's like, "Okay." And then he's like, "What? No big speech?" Dani: She's like, "Nope." Clara: Going back to the ending, I definitely feel like my feelings about it are complicated. I end up sort of falling on the side of like, it's great to have a happy ending here. I'm glad that Simon was able to secure commitment from the board and make substantive changes. I'm glad he got to have that relief and joy that he talks about at the party because that has been my big fear for him in this arc. And honestly, in the first season too. There's so much pain in his life, you want him to have joyful moments. At the same time I do see the anxiety over it's not actually that easy. Even when you do have the world behind you, getting a company to actually make real changes is nigh impossible. We were talking about this last week with the Tim [inaudible 00:33:27] situation at Google, and the walkout to protest sexual harassment at Google. All of these people were fired in some capacity or pushed out. Dani: And he talks about that. He talks about how if he retracts everything, he basically just has to play it safe and sit in the background and they're going to push him out or give him a job that he has no say in and can't move up in. Clara: He had to acknowledge that for it to work but where I do end up landing is like... When we had Torian we talked about how Zoey's, as a show, it's always demonstrating how things should work in the end. Like how you should behave in the world. And there's a lot of fucking up in the middle portions but there always is this sort of end result that is like, this is what the world should be like, this is how people should behave. I think that that's what this is about. We get satisfying resolutions in this world. We get happy endings even when we don't see them in the real world, and there's value to that and in showing the world as it could be. Dani: And I mean, that's kind of a popular thing happening these days. You're seeing a lot more stories told, like period pieces that aren't accurate because you have like- Clara: Oh, the like color-blind casting? Dani: Yeah. Bridgerton is a big one right now. But even, that show that came out last year, Hollywood, how they kind of rewrite history a little bit. It's a popular thing right now and I know it gets a lot of shit but it's like, why not? Why not tell the happy ending? Why not rewrite history and be like, this is what it could be like? Clara: I mean, I have seen some interesting critiques of the color-blind casting in some instances where like, the casting is color-blind but then the narratives still sort of perpetuate sort of racist tropes or whatever else. I definitely think that it's good that there are those critiques because just color-blind casting does not fix the thing. Dani: No. Clara: But I agree with you. I'm not somebody who thinks that realist fiction is bad but I also think that it is very important to have things that allow us to imagine a different kind of world. Dani: I mean, we discussed it too also when we had Torian. Like you have Schitt's Creek, which is just the happiest fucking beautiful show that just doesn't bring up all the heavy shit. And it's like, you don't always want the heavy shit. And they still had a lot of stuff that was sad or heartbreaking on that show but it wasn't around like... Clara: It wasn't about identity. Dani: Yeah. It wasn't about identity. So it's like, that's what I think has worked for that show and really works for Zoey's as well. Clara: Yeah. Well, I think that's all I had for the arcs. Do you have anything else you want to mention before we move to heart songs? Dani: No, I don't think so. Clara: All right. Just four heart songs in this episode, again. In order of appearance, they were, Black Man in a White World by Michael Kiwanuka sang by Simon, No More Drama by Mary J. Blige sang by Mo, Tracks of My Tears by Smokey Robinson and The Miracles sang by Tobin, and Tightrope by Janelle Monáe sang by Simon, Mo, Tatiana, and that whole ensemble at the restaurant party. So start with favorites. Which one made you tear up? Dani: I loved Tobin's. I don't think anyone would be surprised here that I chose his heart song. And it wasn't just because I love him, I just realized while I was watching it again that it's such a poignant number and its nuance and it's different than the other musical numbers. There's like a hesitation in it and less choreography than is usually involved in the numbers and I feel like I love that so much that it's just like, he gets his own kind of voice in his numbers. You know what I mean? Clara: Yeah. Dani: Even with his other one as well. So I like that it's catered to that specific character. And I also feel like he deserves way more solos. His voice is incredible. Clara: Yeah. Is Don't Speak the only other one he's had? Dani: I think so. I think usually he's like chorus. Clara: Yeah. I definitely noticed it more in this one than I did in that though that's great too. And I think part of it is because he's being more sincere in this one. Don't Speak, obviously, he has genuine feelings for Leif and was genuinely concerned about that relationship but it was also- Dani: Played for laughs. Clara: ... a little jokey. Yeah, it was played for laughs. And this one isn't at all. I like what you said. I noticed that there was less choreo on his number than there was in the rest of the episode but I sort of... When I was thinking about it initially, I was like, "Oh, well, his is not an ensemble number." But I think you're right, that a lot of it is about catering to his particular style and personality. And one of the things that I noticed was he gets a lot of close-up shots, like a lot of head shots during his number. And that's actually a pretty unusual period in this show, generally you see more body and movement. Dani: Like I said, there's like a hesitation to his performance. Almost like he's not sure if that's how he feels, you know? Clara: Yeah. And I mean, I think that really fits well with everything that he goes through in this episode and the way that he is like coming to an understanding of what matters to him and what his values are in this situation as he's moving through it. I think that's a great choice. I found it very hard to choose just one song this week. Except for the first one- Dani: They were all so good. Clara: ... all of these songs were ones that I knew and loved before. I mean, I thought all of them, including that first one were amazing, but the rest of them were ones that I knew before. They were things that I listened to growing up, not growing up but as a whole human outside of podcasting. In the case of the Janelle Monáe number. So that's definitely part of it. But they also each brought something different to the episode. Clara: I really liked how the show used Tracks of My Tears to show what's going on with Tobin under the surface and the way he cuts off parts of himself to fit in and to survive. He is an incredible singer, so I agree with you it's nice to see him get some more airtime. The Mary J. Blige number that Mo and the other muralists sang was really raw and intense, and the choreo in Black Man in a White World and Tightrope just grabbed me. So it was a really tough choice. But in sort of the spirit of what we were just talking about about happy endings, I think the one that sticks with me is Tightrope, because there was so much energy to it, and with such a heavy episode it just felt so good and with that kind of release. And you could see the joy in everyone's face who was performing that. Dani: I mean, this goes without saying but I loved that it was only people of color this week that got to sing and dance. That was it. Clara: Yeah. I think people have talked about that a lot in the town hall number because everyone who isn't black is frozen in that number. It's only the black actors, and dancers, and singers who are up and moving around. And it is really striking. Maybe let's move on to that number, to Black Man in a White World. What did you think of Simon's performance? Dani: God. John Clarence Stewart just keeps fucking blowing me away. He better sweep the award season next year. Fuck, dude. Just everything he's put into this performance in the last couple of episodes, he's just giving it his all. This is a story that matters to him and that's very clear. I mean, his voice, his vocal abilities just blow me away. And he's such a good dancer too. So it's just been lovely to see him shine. Clara: He is a really good singer and dancer. They keep giving him these really physical numbers too, which I don't think was really true in the first season. I think it's mostly been a second season thing where he's been getting big physical numbers. Dani: Yeah, I do you think it was mostly this season that they started doing that. Clara: I feel like [Lanira 00:42:13] could probably do a better job of articulating this in proper music terms or whatever, but I felt like there was a lot of forward motion in the Black Man in a White World number. Like melodically, it mostly stays in the same place. There's not a ton of up and down melodic range but the rhythm just creates this feeling of like constantly moving and running around and never being able to rest. And you get that in the choreo too. Dani: That's interesting. Clara: I don't know if that was intentional at all. It's just something that- Dani: It probably is. I mean, these people- Clara: I know. Dani: ... are so fucking talented. Clara: It was amazing. There's so much thought that gets put into every episode, but this one especially I feel like the musical numbers were just... Dani: Yeah. I mean, they worked with a black choreographer to help choreograph the episode. Clara: Yeah. That's Luther Brown, the choreographer is. Dani: I love that they did that. I don't know if the director's black, but I know like- Clara: Yeah. Anya Adams. Dani: ... the writer on the episode is black. Clara: Anya Adams is, I believe. Dani: They like went there. They were like, everyone working on this episode is at least a person of color. Clara: I hope that that is a trend that continues beyond this episode. Anya Adams has directed a few episodes this season. Dani: Yeah. Not just like a one-off thing. And Zora has been a writer for a while, I think. Clara: At least all this season. I wasn't sure. I looked but I wasn't positive about last season. But, yeah, I hope it's a thing that continues and that trends upward toward more people of color working on this instead of stopping there. Hopefully they make good on the promises that SPRQ Points board made. All right. The last number in this episode was Mo's. It was No More Drama by Mary J. Blige. And this is just like one of those moments where... I feel like nobody else could have performed this number the way that Alex Newell did. Dani: Yeah. Clara: It's just so Mo to me. Dani: Alex Newell completely slayed this performance. I mean, he always does, but there was just something about this one that felt different. It felt more confrontational and sassy than some of the other numbers that he's had. Clara: Yeah. Absolutely. I was trying to read a little background on the song and I don't know that it was super interesting. Honestly, it was mostly about drama within the music industry from what I could I tell. Dani: I mean, that could be interesting. Clara: Yeah. I do think it was a good reflection of what Mo is feeling in that moment. What he's feeling and what he sees in this relationship he has with this person who he really loves but who is being a fuckwit and bringing him into things that she really shouldn't be bringing him into. Dani: I mean, I feel like every white person has had a misstep like that, where they're just like, "How should I handle this conversation with my black friend?" Clara: Or just put posts on Facebook and are like, "I'm wondering what my black friends will think about..." Tag three people. Dani: I feel like everyone's had the missteps, and it kind of reminds me of even the Blackout Tuesday drama that happened last year. I don't know. I mean, society always does a lot of shit like that. They had like the black and white photo challenge, which was super misguided as well. I don't know. I loved that scene for just calling it out for what it is. Don't ask your friends of color questions like that, it's just rude. Clara: I mean, you definitely have to do your own research and to a certain extent you just have to try, and if you step in it, apologize and try to fix the harm. But don't add to it by doing more harm to your other black friends. Dani: Yeah. Exactly. Clara: That's basically all I have for heart songs, honestly. Is there anything else you want to add? Anything we didn't cover? I know we've covered all the heart songs but was there anything you wanted to cover that we didn't get to? Dani: I mean, I had a couple funny anecdotes but I don't think they're really important. I like that there's still this underlying humor to the episode just because that's what the show is. Just like little shit. Like when Tobin says, "Everyone knows I'm a San Francisco Seven," just fucking cracked me up. I laugh because I feel like McKenzie is like me when it comes to talking about Max, and I was like, "I feel called out right now." Clara: Okay. I like your anecdote. That's a nice note to end on. Final thoughts? Dani: I mean, I feel like we covered it all. I loved this episode. It's so important. I've told so many people. I'm just like, "Just watch this episode. If you're going to watch anything just watch this episode. It's so good." I just a 100% love that this is actually the episode that they ended on before going into hiatus. I think that's really awesome too. We get to sit with it for a while. Clara: Yeah. It gives it six weeks of space. Dani: Yeah. Clara: Well, I mean, I love this episode for a million reasons, that we have covered primarily. I think the thing I want to end on and just highlight is that I really did like the way that it ended because it was joyful, and that's what I want for Simon's life and for him in the show. There's a seed of hope for SPRQ Point. We'll see whether any of that comes back in the show or not. But regardless, Simon spoke his truth and he survived and the people he loves showed up for him and showed us how to do that too. Dani: There's little touches in the show that I love so much that just makes it feel so real. Like Zoey at the very end of the episode with him. It's like there's this hesitation she has. She even say anything to Simon after all of that that just happened. I love how Simon was like that he felt relief. I feel like that was a big thing. I love the little moment between them at the end. They have this little bump with each other and they giggle. It was just so sweet to see them have a really nice moment again together because I feel like it's been a while. Clara: Yeah. I agree with you. And I like what you said about her hesitation too, because I think like, it is really easy, especially if you've stepped in it many times, to get in your head and be like, "Oh, well, it's better if I don't say anything," but it's not. It's better for her to be there for him as a friend and to push through that awkwardness. Dani: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Clara: And she figured it out. Dani: And she's going to fuck up again because- Clara: Oh, yeah. Dani: ... we always do. Clara: On that note, I think that's all for this week. Listeners, thanks for joining us. If you like what you heard, subscribe, rate us, and follow us on Twitter, Instagram @ourextrapod. The show's on hiatus for six weeks. We're trying to get together a special for some time in the middle of that so hopefully it won't be that entire time until you hear from us again. Thanks for hanging with us. Bye. Dani: Bye.