Clara: Hello, and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara. Dani: And I'm Dani. Clara: And today we're talking about episode 204, Zoey's Extraordinary Employee, written by Robert Sudduth and directed by Anya Adams. We're joined this time by our friend Torie Hoffman, who is also a huge Zoey's fan. Welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast, Torie. Torie: Thanks for having me guys. I'm excited. Clara: Well, we know Torie through our previous podcast, Physical Kids Weekly, because she's a big fan of The Magicians as well as of Zoey's. and like Dani and I, she has a special kind of relationship to this show and its content. So can you tell us a little bit about that Torie, what's your connection to Zoey's? Torie: Yeah, well, it's kind of multi-pronged really. I think the thing that first got me was that I deeply identified with Zoey as a human, a high anxious human who... And then gets to live the dream/nightmare of having her life actually be a musical. And then also my husband's dad passed away when he was younger, and something that's been really interesting in our relationship in general has been getting to watch him navigate through different pieces of the grief of that, like through different pieces of media. Like we have had it with This Is Us, and then we've had it with different movies and things like that as well. Torie: But something about the rawness that Zoey's brought to the whole process of losing him just really, really hit both of us super hard at the end of last season and then coming into this season. There's really so many reasons, but I think that those are the two main ones. I've also just been really impressed with the pieces of myself that I find in a variety of the characters, like identify with Max in the not knowing what to do with someone who is grieving like that, as well as Emily obviously, and identify with Mo and the queerness and all that stuff. So it's really just kind of a compilation. It's a mosaic of who I am, kind of. Dani: Mosaic. Clara: A playlist? Torie: Something like that. Clara: Yeah, I do find that for me being somebody... My dad like Zoey's dad has a neurological, a procrastinator logical condition, it's in the same family. So Zoey is sort of the obvious person for me. I also work in the tech industry, but this episode, especially, I've been like, "Oh, maybe I'm David." So there's definitely bits and pieces, and I think that's the sort of great thing about TV in general, is that you get these archetypal characters, but nobody is just a single archetype. You always have little pieces of every archetype built into your personality. Dani: What character do you guys think I'm the most like? Clara: Oh, that's a good question. Torie: That is a good question. Clara: I actually haven't thought about this too terribly much. Torie: I feel like you give me big Mo vibes Dani: I'm not that. I could never have that kind of energy. Torie: Yeah. Not in the exuberance but in like Mo's quiet side that we got to see in the episode with the contract and the one they were dealing with that. I see you navigate sometimes issues in the same way, where you keep it in but it comes out in different ways. And then also you are you, and you don't try to not be you, and I think that, that's just a really beautiful thing. Honestly, I freaking love Mo, so this is a huge compliment. Clara: I think that is a huge compliment. I'm going to say though, I think you're more like Simon. I think you have that kind of like- Dani: I was just thinking... I was like, "I think I'm more like Simon and maybe like a little bit of Zoey in her craziness." Clara: In her Capricorness. Dani: In her Capricorness. Clara: And by the way, Torie is also a Virgo, so we're all earth signs here yet again. We have not broken our earth sign bubble. Dani: I also think I'm like Tobin a lot. Clara: Of course you do. Dani: Because I'm just an asshole to some people. I like that sarcastic asshole-ishness, and just how weirdly open he is about his traumas. Clara: Tobin is your, I don't give a side, which is totally a facade, like it is for him too. Dani: Yeah. Torie: Yeah. Absolutely. Dani: I don't give a fuck, but I really just give the most fucks. Torie: Yes, that's it. That's it. Clara: Well, Torie, we're really excited to have you here and to get your perspective on the show in this episode. Before we dive in, Dani, can you read us the episode summary? Dani: Well, IMDB says Zoey tries to choose "happiness" but finds it easier said than done. David reevaluates his priorities, Mo and Max face their first real challenge as business partners. Well technically that's their second challenge. Clara: Choose happiness. Dani: I was so cringed out when I heard it the first time. I was like- Clara: I feel like it's so against everything that this show is about, that I instantly knew this has to be them breaking this apart and being like, "That's bullshit." Dani: I knew it was, but I just was like... I hate just hearing it even in a fictional context, I'm just like- Clara: Nails on a chalkboard. Dani: Good vibes only. You are the vibes you put off. Which is true in an extent. Obviously, it's true but- Torie: Also like mental health. Clara: We should get into initial reactions. I had mixed feelings about this episode, again. I loved the music, both the heart songs and the not heart song performances that we got. I also really love David and Emily's storyline. I think there's just something really profound about the way that loss causes you to realign and to think through the things that matter to you in a very dramatic way. And I think we see that with the pandemic right now, too. Everybody's like, "Don't give a fuck about this. Don't give a fuck about that." It's like that cat meme where the cat's just like, "Fuck this. Fuck that. Fuck this thing in particular." Clara: I am sad to lose George in this of course, because he's such a fun character and Harvey is amazing. We all love Harvey from The Magicians as well. But, and we'll get into all this a little bit later, I was a little disappointed by the setup we got at the end with Aiden. It feels like we've gone from one love triangle to another. So those are my initial thoughts. What about you, Dani? What'd you think? Dani: I don't think I had as many grievances with you, just because I feel like the Aiden thing, it's just going to be a distraction. I mean, we'll get back into that later. Clara: And also, you thought he was hot. Dani: He's so hot. Okay? So hot. Did you see him in Locke and Key, and he puts on the crown and they're playing Do You See Me In A Crown? Clara: Dani, you got to keep this at least PG 13. Dani: I mean that show is PG 13. But I don't have as many reservations. I don't think that he's going to be quite what you think he is, but we'll get into that later. I love drunk Zoey. I vibe with drunk Zoey. I don't know. I did think it was more of like a... I feel like if anything, like you said that a couple of episodes ago was a filler episode. I feel like this is a filler episode, for sure. And then of course, I'm obviously really sad about Harvey leaving the show as well. Tears. What about you, Torie? Torie: I also didn't have a ton of reservations about this episode, but I think I went into it also viewing it a little bit as a filler episode. Mainly because I had seen Harvey sharing that George gets a big number, and usually if a background character gets a big number like that, I can kind of expect it to not be extraordinarily plot heavy. I would say that my one reservation that I share with you, Clara is the Aiden set up. Mostly because I just feel like they're throwing girls, that I would be okay with that. Clara: That would be better. Torie: Yes. I would be super down for that. But I just feel like they're throwing guys at Zoey left and right. It was what? Two episodes ago that she was finally shooting her shot with Max and then Max got shot down so fast and so hard. Dani: And they were in a serious relationship. Clara: Yeah. For two seconds. Torie: It went from like... But for literally two seconds, which really bums me out because I think that there's a lot of history in that relationship that I would have really like to see played out. And I mean, the show is obviously hinting at it's not over and the feelings are still there and all of that. So there's that. I think that issue I have with the chemistry between Simon and Zoey is that it's like trauma bonding, and I just don't love relationships built on that. And so I've never really liked them as a couple, sorry. Dani: No way. Clara: We talked about that like one or two episodes ago, for sure. Torie: So the Aiden thing, it just feels like a pallet cleanser to me. That being said, his rendition of sex and candy was so good and so hot. Dani: We'll talk about that. Clara: It was both sex and candy. It was great. Torie: It was indeed both of those things. So I'm here for the pallet cleanser, but I am definitely getting a little bit of whiplash with Zoey's romantic interests. And I feel like Zoey is too, and so maybe that's some of the point I have. I'm very good at just being like, "Well, look, I'm not creating this. I don't know what's in store." And so I give a lot of leeway before a season is over. Clara: Yeah. Yeah. Torie: But I really loved the heart songs in this episode. Harvey killed Stronger. It was just incredible and really impressive. And then I really, really did love the Emily and David's storyline this episode, it was incredible. I'm sure we'll talk about that more probably. Clara: Oh, yes. Torie: But I think Emily's this character that could have been very typecast and very one dimensional given the way that she was presented in the first season. And the way that they're having her open up in different ways with the introduction of her sister and with the introduction of the baby and all these different dynamics, is just really cool, and so I'm kind of obsessed with Emily now, but it's fine. Torie: And David too is like... I feel like they both could have been kind of backgroundy throughout the seasons, but they've done a really good job in this show of giving all the main characters... Making them really feel each like main characters. Dani: Yeah. I feel like if anything, you would think that they would become more and more background characters as it goes along, but it's like the opposite. Clara: Yeah. Everybody is getting to unfold. Torie: Yes. Yes. And also this episode, I was really confused about the interview situation with Simon and- Clara: Tatiana. Torie: Was that this episode? Clara: Yeah. Dani: Yeah. Torie: Because she was like, "I'm going to take it easy on you." And then- Clara: Did not. Torie: Slammed him with this crazy hard question. Dani: But then he was really happy afterwards. Torie: Yeah. And he was clearly fumbling, and then he came out and was like, "Blame it on the juice." And I'm like, "What happened in there?" Dani: At first [crosstalk 00:11:01] slept together or something. I was like, "What just happened?" Torie: Right. So I'll be curious to see more about that, because I don't think Tatiana's going away, and so that'll be an interesting thing. But yeah. Clara: Yeah. And I think you could see a world in which Tatiana doesn't write a glowing article about SparkPoint. He thinks that that's going to happen and it doesn't happen. But now they've developed this bond and maybe a little chemistry, and it's like, "Oh yeah. Well?" Dani: And she's going to write that article about Max. Torie: The restaurant. Clara: Yeah. Torie: Yeah. So that'll be really interesting. So yeah. A definitely filler episode but a lot of prongs that I'm excited to see where they go. Clara: Well, let's dive in then. We'll do our deep dive. Yeah? Dani: Let's do it. Clara: Okay. So four mains arcs in this episode? Maggie contending with the flirtatious architect and Jenna teasing her and getting to know her more. The increasing tension in Max and Mo's friendship and business partnership. Zoe choosing happiness and then having to fire a bunch of people and saying that choosing happiness is bullshit. David deciding that he wants to leave his job to be a stay at home dad and the impact of that on his relationship with Emily. So yeah. Should we take them in order? Dani: Sure. Torie: Let's do it. Clara: All right. So the first thing I want to talk about is just how right we were last week when we were talking about Maggie and that architect, because he was one, totally into her and you were 100% right about her turning him down and being a fronted by him asking her in the first place. So what did you think about how they handled that in the show? Dani: This basically exactly how I thought it would go down. I was just like, "She's not ready. She's not the kind of character or the person that would move on from her husband quickly." And that automatic guilt that she felt for even flirting with him, realizing that that was going on, it was exactly what I thought was going to happen. So for me, I was just kind of like, "Well, I'm right." Clara: I did think it was really interesting. He makes that comment about how he and his wife were divorced and she's like, "That's different," and it was fucking ice cold. That was good delivery, and I think a good way of showing that he was entitled about the whole thing and sleazy. Dani: I don't like his vibe. He does not pass the vibe check. Torie: He does not pass the vibe check. From the second they were on the screen together, I was like, "Oh, he's going to ask her out." I knew immediately. Clara: He was not looking at her face the entire time in that first scene. Torie: No. Also, how little tact do you have to have as a human to know that someone's husband just passed away to know enough about them as a couple, to know why he passed away, how he passed away and then to have the balls to be like, "Well, I lost my wife too." And to know that it was divorced instead of death, I was like, "What is wrong with you? These aren't things you should say to a person." Dani: It's literally been a few months. Torie: It was so bad. Dani: A few months. Clara: Well, and this was your whole thing, Dani, with him being just entitled rich dude. Right? Dani: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Clara: It is all that behavior that you would expect from that. Dani: Exactly. Clara: It's just disappointing, honestly. Dani: I hope he's not like a dictator moving forward. Clara: Well, especially because she has to work with him. Torie: Yeah. Clara: So you also brought up a couple of weeks ago that you thought Jenna getting close to Maggie might create tension with Emily. And I think we saw a hint of that in this episode though, not in their actual interactions, but just in the faces that Emily was making when Jenna and Maggie were- Dani: Yeah. Like at the end, right before Zoey walks out and sees Aiden or whatever, they're all getting drunk, it's just that look on her face. I feel like Emily has this look on her face like, "Well, Maggie's never done that with me and I'm married to her son." But I feel like that is different, it's a different kind of relationship. A lot of people have boundaries with in-laws. Clara: Yeah. And I think there's something too about if you are the responsible one, I feel like as somebody who tends to be responsible and serious, it drives me nuts when people who I feel like are not really being terribly responsible are just doing whatever they want, end up getting the rewards, the social rewards for it. And I know that's a petty thing and I'm working on it, I have a therapist. But I do think that especially when it's a relationship that you feel you should have a close relationship with this person, and then this other person in your life who just swoops in is not being terribly responsible about things in general suddenly gets the thing that you've always wanted, that stings. Torie: Yeah. It's super frustrating. I also tend, or tended, I guess in my younger years, to be the responsible one. And that is so frustrating to be like you did all the work and checked all the boxes and got all your A+ and maxed your GPA out and did all the things, and then to watch someone else just casually waltz in and just charm the pants off of the room and get that golden ticket of that relationship, I think is really hard. I also think though, that Maggie wouldn't have necessarily done that if Jenna hadn't been like, never have I ever and drank the wine. Jenna instigated the heck out of that, and that's just not Emily's vibe. Emily's not going to be like, "Yeah. Let's get drunk together mother-in-law." But I would love to see that. Clara: Was it this episode or was it the one before where Jenna decides to stay. Because I remember feeling when she says that she's going to stay and David's like, "Yeah, that's a great idea," right after he and Emily talk and are like, "Oh, we're tired of her." And Emily is like, "Yeah, great." Zoey and David really sense that this is the type of person that Maggie needs right now. Somebody who's a little unrestrained, a little irresponsible, who will break her out of the habits that she's developed out of having to be responsible, not just for herself and for her kids, but having to... Taking on the work of helping somebody who she loves, who is dying. It's not just the emotional experience of losing someone you love, it's also that she's had to be responsible for him as his condition has deteriorated. Clara: And so I think both Zoey and David really sense that Jenna can be good for Maggie precisely in the ways that she's maybe a little, not together in her own life. But for Emily, that's just hard because I think Emily feels like, "Oh, well. I'm trying to take on some of the extra household burdens. I'm bringing my kid by. I'm trying to do all these things to help Maggie. Why doesn't she respond to me?" Torie: Something that I was thinking of as you guys were talking about that, and something that I would really love to see them explore as the season goes on is, I get the sense that Mitch was Jenna-ish. Like in his prime, I feel like he was that little bit rebellious that kept her on her toes and stuff. So I'm curious to see if they draw any connections between Jenna and Mitch, and if they bring that up at all and talk about, if there's any memory flashbacks we get where they do something similar or whatever. So, now I'm like, "Oh, I want to know what those parallels are like." Dani: He was definitely like a live life to the fullest kind of guy. Clara: Get on your sailboat. Dani: Yeah. Torie: Absolutely. Clara: I really did like the game of Never Have I Ever, like you mentioned, and not just because we have a podcast about that show too. Jenna and Maggie do seem really well suited to each other. Maggie has this wild side from her youth that lets her connects with Jenna. I feel like I should explain the Esalen Institute for listeners who might not be as familiar with Bay Area and its history as we are. So that one Institute is like this hippy retreat center, or it was. That's how it started. Dani: I told you she would say hippy. Clara: Well, but hang on, hang on. Like yoga, meditation, spiritual stuff, but it was also founded by two Stanford grads. And the place itself is this gorgeous property in big Sur near Monterrey. So on the one hand, it's like the center of 60s counterculture, on the other, it has for a very long time attracted a lot of wealthy elite Silicon Valley types. Clara: And I read this book earlier this year, it's called What Tech Calls Thinking. And it deconstructs a lot of the ideas that you see in the tech industry, like disruption and shit like that. And so many of them can be traced back to the Esalen Institute and the sort of corporatization, and, I'm going to call it gentrification, the gentrification of the Esalen Institute of this counterculture movement. It would bastardize some of those teachings, but also the more that happened and the more this money came into Esalen, the more it shifted the priorities and the approach of the Institute itself. Clara: So to me, it makes a lot of sense that Maggie went to Esalen both because it would have attracted her as a young hippie activist in the 60s, but also because it's this kind of place where the people who come out of it end up with a lot of connections and end up as wealthier members of the wealthy elite. And while Maggie's career has been this landscape design, she's doing it for really rich people. And she clearly has money herself by her house, which we assume is in Ren. Clara: So I think of Esalen Institute, it's still around today, but I think of it like the burning man of that time period. Like started out super counter-culture and there's still that element, but also totally overtaken by yuppies basically. And so I think that it makes a lot of sense to me that Maggie would be from there, both because she was a hippie and because she is no longer. Torie: Okay. I'm really glad you explained that for one, because I'm not super familiar with the Bay Area's history and I didn't go do a Google search after that episode. So when I don't know stuff sometimes the show I'll be like, "I'm just going to suspend that disbelief and assume that it makes sense." Dani: Well, not everyone's like us. Torie: Yeah. So look, it depends on the day. But I think that's awake. It totally tracks. Also, I think that there's this underlying human thing that we have as a species where at least a nugget of our souls want to do the counterculture thing. And so the counterculture stuff always gets gentrified and bastardized and always gets taken over by the yuppies because it's just like people. Well, then people think they can commodify it and they can sell it to you in a bottle or whatever, instead. And so I think it's really interesting to have that be part of Maggie's history. And also, I'm curious to see... I'd really love to see how her evolution as a human in all of the ways that she inevitably has involved. Clara: Yeah. Like how did she get from naked activist in the street to landscape architecture to wealthy elite. Torie: Right. Dani: Probably something to deal with the having children. I feel like you got to settle down and not get arrested anymore. Clara: Yeah. We should move on to the next storyline, which is about Max and Mo. Dani, what did you think of the way Max was treating Mo in this episode? Dani: It didn't surprise me because they are just so very different people. Mo is definitely just like this over the top person. But I love that Mo pointed out like, "We have a different way of doing things." And I just think Max needed to say something sooner. Everything that he was saying was really passive aggressive and petty, and then until finally he says something. But I feel like there's just a lot going on there. Like Max obviously just went through a breakup, not break up, a pause or whatever the hell they're calling it. So he's very upset. And I don't blame him for feeling how he felt, he was just doing everything. Torie: I think one of the things I love the most about this show does is communication, and as terrible as Mo is at it sometimes, there are times when Mo is just brilliant at it. And this episode was definitely one of those instances. Dani: They always show you at the end of the day how to have proper communication. Clara: It's often cobbled together from multiple characters' mistakes and correct actions, but yeah. Dani: Yeah. Torie: Yeah. Which I think is so human and also probably another reason I'm so into this show, because I have been working on my communication a lot. Dani: It's so hard not to be petty. Clara: I wish we still had Easter eggs in this one. That would have been it. Dani: You might have to make an exception. Dani: You might have to make an exception. Torie: It's so hard not to be petty. Clara: One of things, I agree with you that, from Max's perspective, you can totally see why he felt like Mo just wasn't doing anything and wasn't pulling his weight. But also, I think if you sort of look at it from the outside, which of course, all of us are doing, the party is both a fantastic party and it seems pretty clear that it's kind of a little bit of a marketing move, right? Generate some interest in the restaurant, Simon brings this wired reporter who becomes interested in it and so it does end up having things to do with the sort of business side of things, just in Mo's unique way. Torie: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that... I'm trying to figure out how I want to say this. It just is so Mo though, to... I fully understand Max being like, "What the hell is happening?" Because I'm sure Mo wasn't like, "Hey Max, I'm going to do this party thing, and it's also going to be a marketing move." I'm sure that- Clara: Mo doesn't do that. Torie: ... Mo didn't explain his thought process to Max before he did it, because that's not what Mo does. Exactly, and so Max is just like, "Okay. So we're just having a karaoke party now, we're paying for this space that is massive and industrial and probably in an expensive part of town, and now you're just renting a karaoke machine? This is what we're doing?" And so, I really, really love that the show put the two of them together in such an intimate relationship this way with them starting a business together. Because I have started two businesses, and the first one I started with five other people, and clashing personalities are a very real thing, that can totally tank a business and a friendship, and I had both of those happen to me. And so, I really like watching Mo and Max move through the tough parts together, even if they butt heads at first, because that's just an experience I didn't get to have with my first business relationship that way, and I wish that I could of have had those conversations, like they ended up doing. Dani: That was most biggest reservation to begin with, was the fact that he didn't want to lose a friend. Clara: Well, so the party generated some good conversation between Mo and Max. It generated some interest for the restaurant. It also generated a very drunk Zoey Clarke, so what are your thoughts on drunk Zoey, Dani? Dani: I love drunk Zoey. She just doesn't care, she's just so carefree and I don't know. I'm honestly surprised though that at some point she didn't end up in a bathroom crying, because she seems like she would be that kind of drunk. Clara: Oh yeah. Dani: I was so afraid though, when they ended on that cliff hanger, for a second where she's calling someone and you just know, she's calling someone. I knew she was going to do it obviously, but I was just like, "Oh no." But I feel like her calling George was even worse than if she'd called either Simon or Max. Clara: Well, she rehired him which she did not have the authority to do. Torie: But it also made so much sense because clearly that was the thing that was weighing heaviest on her at that point, because in a perfect world, she and Max and Simon would have gone home together all drunk, and it would have been a disastrous threesome. Clara: If the men had had a little more to drink, it would have happened. Dani: They're totally into each other, I believe it. Torie: Absolutely, and the way she's just, "Oh, oh, hell yeah." That bromance is way more than just a bromance. I'm waiting for it, I'm waiting for it. But the way she was like, "Hey, it's me." I was like, "First of all, that can not be a sex call because you sound like you're three." Clara: Counterpoint! She sounded like she was three, when she was talking to Max and also when she said, "You're a handsome-" Torie: It's true. Clara: "... Thank you for being a handsome person." What was it she said to Simon? Torie: Yeah, I think it was, "Thank you for being a handsome person." Dani: I have to say that I heavily relate to Zoe and on that level, I always sound like I'm five. I also look like I'm five to some people. [crosstalk 00:28:18] Clara: Well, I really liked when you and I were texting about this Dani, you were talking about just the casual way that Max turns Zoey down because he knows it's not a situation where she can consent and I love that and I also loved Mo physically pulling Zoey away from Max, because even though he's mad at Max himself, he realizes that this is a bad situation for him and for Zoey. And so he's like swoop, grab, remove. Dani: My drunk ass has definitely been pulled away from people. Clara: Oh, I believe it, and I bet you were in fights some of the time. Dani: Yes. Clara: And then so Mo gives her the stern talking to about drunk dialing, which of course she doesn't listen to cause like, why else would you show that talk on screen if she's going to listen. But he's really looking out for his friends, for Zoey and for Max and for Simon, I guess a little too. You've already answered this a little bit, Torie, please regale us with stories of your love for Mo. Torie: I love Mo endlessly, but I love Alex, I've loved Alex since has glee days, which, you know, glee just let me embarrass myself there but- Dani: We've all been there. Torie: ... Mo is just chef's kiss on so many levels, as a character strong as hell, quiet about their struggles, but only when they're real in the deep ones and then really open about a bunch of other ones and the way that Mo navigates the whole world and all the characters. Mo has the most unique relationship with every other character on the show- Dani: Mo's world. Torie: ... Mo is... well Mo just makes everybody family, exactly, it's Mo's world, I don't know. I just, Oh, he's so good and also I am just, so into Mo's gender expression and still using he/him pronouns, I just think it's representation that was really, really needed for a lot of kids on TV to see that the binaries fucked. Clara: Yeah. And I think, one of the things that I also really like about it is that there's no explaining that, right? People just use the right pronouns and Mo just continues to have a non-conforming gender expression and it's just there. Dani: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Torie: It's very Schitt's creeky in that way where... I think this show is one of my absolute favorites in part for the same reasons that Schitt's Creek is one of my absolute favorites, which is just, it is a better version of this world. It is a world where all of these things exist and it just is, and nobody's throwing a fit over it. The biggest conflict that we had with Mo's identity was his own, it was his own issue with the church, even the church was like, "We accept you and we love you." And we need a lot more of that in the world should be like that. Clara: And one thing I especially like is where, there are shows and books and other media where people behave correctly in those ways, but also there's no conflict, period. And those are not things that I'm into. What I love about the show is that, there's plenty of conflict. It's just not conflict about identity. Torie: Well, conflict-less shows are I don't know, as a writer, nothing can be completely correct. Because then it's boring, not just saying them, but exactly, but put the conflict in places that are universally human and not on the token issue, that doesn't need to be tokenized. So... Clara: So, we were talking about this before, but I do think just the maturity in the way that Mo and Max worked through their problems is just such a fantastic part of this episode. And you're saying all the time, Danny, this show really portrays people as adults handling things in adult ways, which isn't to say, it's not messy, like, see drunk Zoe, but there's always some level of maturity and self-awareness, if not in the exact moment, then at some later point, it's actually one of the things that I liked about the last episode with the whole moment between the fight between Zoey and Max, that sort of led to their pause, is that she's really trying not to face something. But even in this moment where she's really trying not to face something, they use her powers to kind of forcibly put her in this moment of self-awareness and make her confront it, and so I think the show does that really well and here too is no exception. Dani: Yeah, the adult portrayal of everything is, I think what makes me happy because it's like, not only are these characters actually my own age, but, it just feels so realistic, and I've always just been a huge fan of realistic fiction in general. And I want to circle back though, to the moment that we were talking about the situation where Max turns Zoe down. I love that because, I mean, we shouldn't pat men on the back for doing the bare minimum, but, it's still something that I feel it's not talked about a whole lot in TV. And I like that, they showed him turning her down. Even though, he clearly still loves her. He wants to be with her. He knows that he should not, hook up with her because not only she would probably regret it in the morning, and a lot of the times people think that they still have consent just because they've gotten consent from someone one time. So it's like, I like that, they just kind of were like, no. Clara: Yeah, I did too. And I also liked that they showed him doing it, even though he was clearly, not thrilled about the situation. And I think that's important too, I've seen a couple shows where they really sort of emphasize consent issues in this way, but there is this sort of utopian conflict-less vibe to that where the men are just perfect, this is just how they're born is that they know about how consent works and they're doing the right thing in every situation and they're always happy about it. And the truth is people aren't always happy about having to turn somebody down when they're super into it, but it's still the right thing. And so I kind of think there's value too, to seeing him be kind of irritated by it and still turning her down and still being like, "No, this is not right." Dani: I kind of hope they circle back to it. Maybe Zoey have a conversation with him, being like, "Thank you for like turning me down and pushing me away since it wasn't the right moment." Clara: I don't know. I feel like I personally would feel like for the sort of reason you said, we don't want to just pat men on the back for... give him a gold star for doing the right thing. I don't think she needs to have that conversation with him, I think it's just his responsibility, Torie: Yeah. I feel like... I agree. I agree with what you guys are saying for sure. I think that what he did was just what he should have done, and that is how it was portrayed in the show. And I really appreciated that. I also think that Zoe is so riddled with neurosis that if he had taken advantage of that moment, there's no way they ever would have had a second chance. I think because we don't see a lot of history in this show, which I think is a really beautiful thing about it, because if you look at 'This Is Us', which just steeps in the flashbacks and talks about the historical piece of losing someone, as opposed to how this show really, really digs into the reality of the now moment of it. Torie: But because it does that, we don't get the layers of like little seven year old neurosis Zoey doing something crazy to little seven year old, trying to figure his shit out, Max. And we don't get to see all these layers of understanding that these people have of each other. But I think that this moment was a really good portrayal of Max knowing Zoe. And like, you said, Clara, he clearly wasn't thrilled about it, but, knowing that if he even, started to take that bait, that who Zoe is and has been over the years would just- Dani: Well, Max and Zoe, have actually only known each other for about five years. They met, well, both starting work for SparkPoint he's from the East coast and moved. Torie: Why did I think they known each other forever. Dani: Because they seem like they've known each other forever. They're just kind of... They're soulmates. Clara: Don't worry that Torie. I've been subjected to so many patented Dani corrections over the years. Torie: Corrected the hell out of me, had [inaudible 00:36:55] and so. Dani: Clara likes to correct me too. Clara: It's true, it's true. But you've got two earth signs together. It's just going to be a little extra, sometimes. Torie: The beauty of it though, is the earth signs can handle the corrections as well. Clara: It's true, it's true. Dani: [crosstalk 00:37:13] It's like, "Thank you for teaching me." Torie: Well, in my head, they've known each other since they were children so... Clara: Well, okay. So we should move to the next arc, which is kind of the through line for this episode, which is Zoe's misguided attempts to choose happiness, sort of at Mo's direction, which is like, "That's bad advice, Mo." Really curious what you think about this one, Torie, I have a feeling you have feelings. Torie: You think what? Me? Feelings? Yeah, no, I have a lot of feelings. As someone who spent a lot of time trying to do that and trying to push that idea as well, I mean, I'm a Virgo with a lot of Capricorn placements in my chart. The idea that I cannot choose how to feel on a daily basis is genuinely exhausting and terribly frustrating to me. Right, I wish that it were as easy and as simple as waking up and choosing happiness, but, I think they handled it really well as, of course they would, because the show doesn't tiptoe around nor would they lean into like, "Yeah, you can just man handle your life into being perfect." But for me, growing up in the Midwest and I love my grandparents and they raised me very, very well, but there is that kind of mentality, that kind of bootstrappy mentality in Iowa. Torie: And so, they didn't know what to do with me when I wasn't happy or wasn't little miss sunshine. Right? And so, as a result of that, it took me forever to like, even accept my own anxiety diagnosis and things like that. Because I just was like, "No, like I'm high functioning, and you know," well, I didn't use the word 'high functioning' because I didn't have that vocabulary at that time. But like, "No I'm high functioning enough. Like it's fine. I'm not, you know, there's nothing wrong." Clara: It's not disruptive. Torie: Yeah, exactly. And so I think that's the insidiousness behind this terrible advice that I think Mo gave to Zoey out of like, Mo also trying to give it to himself. Like, I think Mo's trying to force some feelings to fit, into like, square pegs into round holes right now. Torie: And so I think maybe like, I think there's a piece of Mo that was like, "Well, I'm going to impart this wisdom of mine onto Zoey, and if it works out for Zoey, then I know it'll work out for me." Obviously it didn't because obviously it doesn't. But I just think, I admire her for waking up that next day and being like, "Yep, I'm, that's it, I'm choosing happiness." And then continuing to attempt to choose happiness, even when she got this news about having to fire 10% of her workforce or whatever it was. And I think she handled the downfall of this like ideology, really, really well. Like she didn't crumble and I think season one, Zoe might've crumbled really. So... Clara: Yeah. And I think that brings us to... I mean, I said this before, but I feel like the idea that you can choose happiness is so... can something be out of character for a show? I think it's out of character for the show. But it seemed pretty obvious that it's going to be deconstructing that. But I think the sort of key moment where Zoey is dealing with the downfall with that is also the moment where she encountered Simon in the meditation room. And he just has this amazing monologue that I think I've seen versions of this before, but I felt like this particular one was just so good. And so really underlines what really needs to happen. Because it's not that you need to force yourself into positive feelings and ignore the negative ones. And it's also not that you need to wallow, right? Like you just of need to let yourself have all of the feelings that you're having. So let's take a listen. Torie: "I have been trying so hard to be happy lately, and the universe just keeps throwing obstacles in my way." Simon: "Life will do that to you. It's not like you have to only feel one thing at a time, you can feel all of the emotions at the same time, like happiness, anger, grief. Look, you've got this massive hole in your heart that you just can't fill. And I understand that, but the good news is, that eventually, that hole will scar over. You can wear that scar like a badge of honor, and it won't define you, it'll deepen you and you'll learn how to draw strength from it. It's because scars are tough, they remind us of all the battles we fought and how we survived to tell the story, just trust and allow all the emotions to be there. Then you'd be surprised at some of the old ones that start to just springing and back up." Clara: So, yeah. Dani, what did you think about this? I know this was one of those moments in this episode that really resonated with you. Dani: I loved that moment, for one, I love just kind of how casually the conversation is, it's not this crazy tense, conversation between them. It's very like chill, I mean, they are in the meditation room, but I don't know, it's moments like these and I'm just like, "God, I fucking love Simon." And, he really doesn't get enough love. And I feel like a lot of that comes from the fact that I don't ship him and Zoey, but, I still love Simon as a character. Clara: You diamonds them. Torie: Yes. Dani: I loved that moment though, because I happened to be watching the episode on... Well, it aired on the anniversary of my grandpa's death and it just kind of made me feel like, I just resonated with what he was saying that I was feeling all of these different emotions and within the same day, at the same time, and I don't know, I just loved that part. Torie: The last time they were in that meditation room was not calm and chill. So- Clara: No, as Simon mentions. Dani: No and he says that. Torie: So, extra impressive that they managed to, just make this, what I think a lot of shows would handle as a very heavy conversation, just part of their relationship. And again, there's the trauma bond thing there, but Simon's just like really wise. Simon is this person who in a lot of ways is a fucking idiot, but in a lot of really important ways, especially the ones that Zoey needs right now, and considering he didn't lose his dad that long ago. Clara: Well, he was a fucking mess last season. Torie: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. So I'm deeply impressed with his ability to catalyze and process, and then have this output of this really mature relationship with his grief where he maybe can't... Well, I mean, I feel, I feel like I always feel like that after a therapy session, right? Torie: You walk away and you're like, I am the czar of understanding emotion and then you have this toolkit and you can like regurgitate it to other people or whatever, but, you may not always succeed in practicing it on your own. But I think the way he gives Zoey permission to just have emotions. Clara: Be a mess? Torie: Yeah, and fall apart and to have that not mean that she, as a human will be forever falling apart, is just something that's really beautiful. And it's something that, I personally need to be reminded of all of the time. And so, he just, he does it so beautifully, and so good. Clara: I do, I really like the scene. I'm worried a little bit in the season as a whole, that he's being sort of shuffled into the supporting character role in a way that Max isn't, because he's no longer a love interest of hers. So I'm hoping that this new thread with Tatiana gives him some independent life again, because I love the advice that he's giving Zoe, in season one, one of the things we got was a lot of who Simon was qua Simon. And I feel like we haven't really had any, of that seriously in this season. Torie: Of all of the things that, I will praise this show for doing so well until the ends of the earth. I do think that hetero love interests is just one that they that have not hit the mark on. I feel like they've struggled with that where, they know Zoey is their main and if someone's not romantically tied to her and is not, familialy tied to her, they don't necessarily know what to do with them. Honestly, I felt like we saw that in the back half of season one with Max when he wasn't her main interest and it seemed like Simon was, it felt like Max and who Max was outside of Zoey just got super put away into a box. Whereas now we're seeing that happen with Simon, which is really not a good time because I love Simon. And I think there's a lot to Simon that still could be explored, especially after the emotional revelatory storyline he had with his almost marriage last season and all of that. So, agree, I think they definitely need to figure out how to handle these men when they're not trying to get in Zoe's pants actively. Clara: All right. So we should, we should move to the last arc. But before that, we have to talk about George, Dani how'd you feel about him? This episode? Dani: I mean, I was sad because I was getting used to seeing him and I thought it was going to be a much longer arc from... I think it must just take a lot longer to film during COVID restrictions. Clara: They're still filming right now. I think. [crosstalk 00:47:35] Dani: No, no, I know they took a huge break and then they started filming again, because I know that a lot of them were basically on vacation for a bit there. I think it does just take a lot longer. I just figured his arc would be longer. Cause I think we're going to have a big meaty break coming up soon because, I didn't see any episodes listed as airing passed, not this next one, but the one after it. Clara: Oh no, a hiatus. Dani: This next one, but the one after it. Clara: No, a hiatus. Dani: I think there's going to be a hiatus. Torie: [crosstalk 00:48:06] Hiati. Clara: [Hiati, hiaterer, hiatupause 00:48:11]. Sorry. This is having been in a linguistics PhD program, this is one of the ridiculous hobbies of linguists, is just coming up with the weirdest plural that you can think of for things. I'm going to go with- Torie: My husband must low key be a PhD in linguistics. Clara: Probably. Torie: Because he just does that all the time anyway. Clara: I'm going to go with [hiatupodes 00:48:36]. I think that's the most ridiculous Latin or Greek plural. I can't remember if it's Latin or Greek right now. Whatever. Anyway, so yeah, I was really sad about George too. I'm really sad to lose Harvey though, obviously, I understand that he has to go back to what we do in the shadows where he is the main character. I think you were telling [Linea 00:49:00] that because of COVID restrictions, you can only film one show at a time, right? Dani: Yep. Which is why Lauren Graham had to leave as well. Clara: Right, because of the whole- Dani: If that makes sense. Clara: … Disney thing. Like Lauren Graham, I'm holding out a hope that George will come back in later seasons and actually I've seen some talk that they want that to happen. Who knows if it will actually be possible. Dani: Yeah. They definitely want it to. Clara: Yeah. I don't think this is what's actually going to happen, but I have this fantasy head cannon that he's going to get super good at the business side of things, not the coding side and get really confident and come back to the spark point to replace Danny Michael Davis as Zoey's boss. Dani: Oh God! Torie: The level at which I would love that is very high, partially because I love Harvey. Both my husband and I, when we watched this episode for the first time, we're like, "No!" Of course Peter's response was, "No, Gilmore!" Of course my response was just, "No, Harvey!" Because now I've watched Harvey through a number of roles and I just love seeing him on screen. I also just think he does beautiful things with characters and I love the magicians, but they wasted his comedy chops, man. That boy can really kill it. Yes. I just loved all the little… I also want to know if that picture of George's abuelita on his desk is Harvey’s abuelita. Clara: Is Harvey's? Torie: I really do. This is what I want to know. Clara: I think it looks like it has to be just because it looks like such a- Torie: It's a very specific photo to be a random stock photo. Clara: Yes. That’s exactly it. It’s very specific, the lighting is not spectacular. It looks like home snapshot. Torie: Yeah. So in the end if that's true, I want to know everything about Harvey's abuelita, because she looks like she's lived some life. Clara: I actually saw a one man show with Harvey, because he gave a talk at CSU Monterey Bay, where my husband teaches. It was really interesting, because he was talking about how growing up… He grew up in a family that didn't have a lot of money and he wanted to take this acting class that was $15 or something like that. So his family couldn't/wouldn't give him money to do that. So he collected cans to recycle, to make them money, to take his first acting class. There's so much more in there an. I can't possibly say all of it, but I just thought it was so nice to get to hear that much about… Because he talked for an hour monologuing and it was just nice to hear that much about his life and about his journey into acting. Dani: That does not surprise me, that his family wasn't necessarily down for it, just because it's such a, you just never know what's going to happen. Clara: Yeah. Especially if you come from a background where there isn't a lot of money, I think there's this real push for the kids to find financial security until they can make that a priority. Dani: Yeah. Clara: So yeah, no more George, he did get quite an exit and we'll talk about his musical number when we get to heart songs. But yeah, I just wanted to make sure we got a little bit of George talk in before we moved on to David and Emily. Dani: I’m going to miss him. I was starting to ship him with Tobin. Torie: I love it. Stand by it. I need him to come back and ask Tobin out on a date with a different Britney Spear song [inaudible 00:52:41]. Clara: All right. Well, hopefully we will have the chance again at some later point in the future to talk all things, George. But for now our last arc that we have to discuss this week, it's the reason we brought you here, Torie, to be our bereaved partner consultant. Torie: Official title. Clara: David and Emily's arc. So yeah. What did you think, did it resonate at all with your experiences of that relationship of being a partner to somebody who has gone through something that intense? Torie: In a lot of ways. Yes. I think so much of what they go through is so similar to… It's really interesting that he wants to stay home with the baby and he wants to do all, like change his whole work thing. Just because a large part of heaters, grief has been not wanting to do big things in life because his dad's not there. He lost his dad when he was 16. Torie: So it's been a number of years. But he took, I think a good year or two longer than he necessarily wanted to, to propose just because the idea of proposing and not having his dad there was really hard for him. So when it comes to career stuff, he's always just done, like retail work or… He does videography and stuff now, but he just stumbled into that and it ended up working out really well for him, but he absolutely wants to be a stay at home dad. Torie: When we've talked about it, it is definitely in not small part because of how much he remembers his dad being there when he was young. His dad wasn't a stay at home dad, but he did construction worker. He did some work with landscaping and construction and things like that and he was just around a lot. He was always at the T-ball games. He was always at the football games and things like that. So I think there's just this paternal need to be there. I deeply resonate with Emily and that I want to keep working. Torie: So if we can find a way to make that work, I would love for Pete to be a stay-at-home dad, but something that I would love to see more of an Emily's arc, this season, is I don't know how long she and David were together before Mitch got sick and I don't know how much she knew of Mitch before Mitch got sick, but I know for me knowing how important Pete's dad was to him- Clara: It's really interesting to hear your perspective, right. For me, when I'm looking at this stuff, I'm thinking of it through the lens of what my dad is going through and what I'm going through because my dad is going through this illness. I think a lot about, how does this affect my husband? When my dad was in the hospital last year, it took so much out of me just between worry and trying to be there for him and for my stepmom, physically be there. I think, Dani, you and I talked about this maybe in our first episode or maybe in the trailer, that my dad does have this tendency to minimize what he's experiencing. Clara: So minimize the effect that his symptoms are having on him personally. So I would have these suspicions before things weren't always going quite as well as he'd say, but then when he was in the hospital, it was, the jig is up completely, right. It wasn't me seeing him every three months or every two months or every month or whatever. Right. I was seeing him all the time. On top of that, it was also just clear when somebody goes for a walk and they pass out and break their ankle because their blood pressure is not fully regulated. Clara: Maybe it's not something that you want to get in the way of your life and how you feel about your life, but it is still something that is happening and that does affect how you have to go about living your life to a certain extent. It doesn't mean that you can't do the same things, but it does mean that you have to do them in a different way. So I was having that experience and I had these really hard conversations with my aunts where at that point it was pretty easy for him to hide and minimize the impact if he's just talking to somebody. Clara: He would say at the time that he had Parkinson's, which he has multiple systems atrophy. It falls under the atypical Parkinson's umbrella, but it's NSA, it's a different diagnosis with a different prognosis. So I just remember, those were the conversations that just shot me through the heart, was having to say to his older sisters, “Hey, this is the reality of it. This is how much time we're talking about. Don't wait. You need to visit him. You need to talk to him.” Then of course, two months later we had a pandemic. So the visiting went out the window a little bit though. They did come when he got out of the hospital. Clara: I think for them, but also for my husband and for anyone else who isn't, not just seeing him all the time, but there's a certain closeness, right? I've known my dad my whole life and I know when he's bullshitting himself. So I think my husband, he got it on an intellectual level. He got the stress that I was going through. He got what was happening to my dad, but there was a level where it was, this is a broken ankle. Right. It's more complicated, but it's a broken ankle. The associated worry that I have around anticipatory grief that a broken ankle leads to a wheelchair, leads to one more step on this journey. Torie: Well, that’s [inaudible 00:58:38] dad becoming, not someone who you recognize as fully as your dad. Right? Clara: I don't know if I would say that, but definitely it just makes things harder. Right? We talked a lot. You weren't here for that obviously, Torie, but the first episode of the season really hit me because my dad has become a lot less intelligible, especially over the last year. It's been happening for a little while, but now I think if you're not talking to him regularly and you don't have visual cues, it's very, very hard to understand what he's saying. Clara: So he and I were going to do a podcast last year after he got back from the hospital and it's not really an option. That was one that hit me really hard. It's the ways in which things like that make it harder to communicate. I can't have private conversations with him really anymore because I can't… Even though I understand him better than most people, I don't understand him fully. Because we can't have private conversations, right, we also can't have sometimes as intellectually complex conversations as we used to have. Clara: So he's still the same person, but my access to parts of him that have been really important to me my whole life it's not there anymore. So I think for my husband, he got that intellectually, but the weight of it took a little while before he could get it. He was super supportive. He's been super supportive the whole way, especially once he started to understand. Torie: I think I have a unique… I'm very lucky that I am deeply empathetic and even with that on my side to equip me with certain abilities to move past the intellectual acceptance of it, into pieces of the emotional acceptance of it, it's still is just- Clara: Yeah. Torie: I think it's a weird, as a spouse of someone who has suffered a loss like that, it's a weird, not grief, it's a weird pain to navigate because it just- Clara: It's so personal. Torie: … breaks my heart that I can't undo these things. I can't take away the memories that he had of his dad in his last days, trying to just be the most, his dad. His dad passed away of lung cancer, but they didn't diagnose it until it was stage four and he was having vision problems. So it went reasonably quickly. But I think it's just knowing that he had to watch the future that he had planned to have with his dad, go away and that breaks my heart because I can't do anything about it. Torie: That's the thing that I struggle with the most with people that I love is just, when they're in pain, I want to take it away from them, even if I can't, because I also just deeply grapple with the ridiculous unfairness of things like that, of cancer or of things like what your dad is going through. It's stupid and it shouldn't be happening and I get very angry on behalf of the universe, knowing that good people are… Whatever. So I think it's a weird place to be in where you intersect with the grief, but it's not yours and so figuring out how to support and how to… Yeah. It's weird. Clara: To bring you back to the show, that, I really think is what Emily is going through in this episode, when she tells David that she knows he's going through a lot, in that scene, when he first tells her, “I want to quit my job.” She's like, “I know you're going through a lot, but please know big changes right now.” That is this moment for me. She knows it intellectually, but she doesn’t have it internalized because it's not her pain. Right. It takes her the course of the episode. Then watching, especially the way that he just resigns himself to that, it makes me a little emotional to talk about this, but she sees that. She sees the way that he resigns himself to that and that is the moment that triggers for her, “Okay, I get this and what I want is to be here for you.” Torie: Yep. I think that's what you have to do in those situations. Well, okay. First of all, I love David and I also know he's going through so much, but the way he approached that conversation- Clara: Worst timing ever. Torie: When she was in the middle of changing the diaper, and this is how I know Peter and I have come a really long way in communication as well, is because as soon as David walked in and was just like, “I want to quit my job.” Pete was like, “Whoa! No, dude, no.” I was like, “Yeah, that is not how you…” The first thing you should say is, “Hey, do you have a second? I want to talk about something.” Not just like, here's this thing that will deeply change both of our lives. So I think Emily handled it way better than she would have first season. Clara: For sure. Torie: I think she handled it as best as she could in that situation and I think you can see her learning how to help him operate through his grief, because I think that's one of my biggest things that I try to do for Peter is, life still continues even though you wish so badly that it would stop. It still goes. So you have to find ways to operate within that. I think Emily does a really good job of being, “I'm not telling you, no, I’m telling you, we can't have this conversation right now.” I think in her head, that's what she said and maybe that's just me projecting. Torie: I think in her head, she was like, “I'm not telling you, no, I'm just saying, I just was changing a screaming baby's diaper and this was not the way to have this conversation.” But I think he heard, “No, don't do this because all of our future plans rely on you continuing to do this thing you now hate.” Then I think it took Emily seeing what her words had impacted on him for… I've seen Pete break in ways that I didn't intend, based on his grief. Torie: Based on things that I said and then it is, it's absolutely just this, all your walls fall down in an instant and the only thing that you want to do is just go tell them that, whatever it is that they need, do that and we'll figure the rest out. That makes me emotional because that's the conversations that we've had over the course of our marriage and our relationship that really make a difference, I think. Clara: So we've been talking for a while, Dani, do you want to add anything before we talk about Aiden? Dani: For one, I don't think that David quitting his job is going to work out a long-term for them, but- Clara: In the Bay area single-income. Dani: Yeah. In the Bay area. Emily's a very go-getter person, she has drive and an integrity and she gives a shit about her job and she gives a shit about all of that stuff. So David being a very driven lawyer, I'm sure is something that attracted her to him in the first place. So I don't know, in my opinion, and this is me and I know how I am, I could not be with a man who was unemployed. Clara: I hear you. I think you're projecting yourself on to Emily in this situation. We'll see how it works out, but I think they're in a very different place in their lives too. Dani: No, I just think there's going to be struggles with the idea of it. It's going to be a reoccurring issue. It's not going to be a one and done we're good. Clara: Sure. But I don't think that means it's not going to work out for them. Torie: My vision of it for her is that, she finds more career-based freedom knowing that they don't have to pay an expensive daycare and that knowing that that baby has the best possible care at home with David. But that's me projecting myself on to Emily and being, if I could go trace my career dreams and Pete could just watch the kid, I'm here [crosstalk 01:07:08]. Dani: I'm just curious, is he saying that he literally never wants to have a job again or- Clara: I don't think so. I think he's saying he wants to raise the kid while the kid is young or kids since they may eventually have another one. Dani: I don't know. I also, just the whole privilege of it, there's so much fucking privilege there. Torie: The show, that family [crosstalk 01:07:28]. Dani: I know, it's true, but I'm just, I don't know. I could just see all of the potential, disruption in this relationship and it breaks my heart a little bit. Clara: Well, we'll see where it goes. This is one place where I don't think your predictions are going to be correct, though you've been right a lot this season. Dani: I didn't say that they would not be together, I just think they're going to have issues. Torie: #Marriage. Clara: Okay. So that's all the arcs. I do want to take though a brief moment to talk about Aiden, because at the very end of this episode, we get a new character and a new potential love, or at least lust interest for Zoey. So Dani, how do you feel about Aiden? Dani: I like Aiden. I like his vibe. He passes the vibe check. Torie: Because he's Australian. Dani: He sings. Oh man, that cover, that cover. I wish they would release that cover. Of course they haven't. I personally think it's what she needs. Clara: You think she needs to bang it out? Dani: She needs to bang it out. Who knows if they're even going to bang, maybe there's just like a friend situation and they just red herring it with the sex and candy, like number, but- Clara: Well, and also the constant blushing. Dani: Yeah. But I don't know, if you watch the promo for the next episode, it doesn't really feel like they're about to have sex or anything. It seems like she's just trying to be, not choose happiness, but more carefree in general. It seems like is what she's going for and he definitely has that vibe. I don't know. I don't think there's anything wrong with distracting yourself with someone else just because you got out of a relationship with another person. Clara: No, there definitely isn't, but I do feel like the show is veering a little bit back into middle school, love triangle territory. Especially, I just don't want to see Zoey jerk max around more because she had all season one, they got together and now they broke up and for- Torie: One of the reason they broke up, it was very like, I want you to have space for your grief. Clara: Right. She doesn't take it and bang somebody else, that is also not treating Max very well, in my opinion. Dani: I guess, but they're not together. So to think that she just shouldn't have sex just because she's on [crosstalk 01:09:56] or something. I don't think she's going to have any actual relationship with this guy. That's the thing. I think that they are literally just a distraction for each other and that's it. It seems like he's rarely home, is what they make it sound like. So I don't think he's long-term, I'm pretty sure it's a short art and I don't know, I'm glad that they… I'm honestly, personally glad that they're not just throwing your back at Simon. Clara: Yeah. I do see that. I still like Simon too, but I'm glad for that. I'm glad it's not a love triangle, the original love triangle situation. Dani: I like Simon. I don't like him with Zoey. I would love to see him with someone else and maybe we're getting that with Tatiana. I don't know. Clara: So brief question. Did anyone else get a lesbian vibe from Tatiana. Dani: I definitely didn’t. Torie: I have to watch it again now because I’m not sure. Dani: I just saw a queer vibe in general, but- Torie: Yeah. Dani: It seemed like she was flirty with literally everyone, so could just be one of those, but I don't know. Torie: I think Zoey should just bang it out with Aiden, but because she needs to have sex with someone who she's not- Clara: Attached to. Torie: … deeply and confusedly and on multiple intense layers emotionally involved with. Dani: Yeah. I feel like she can just- Torie: She just needs to have sex for the sake of it. Dani: She just needs to shut that shit down, all these emotions, just have sex for the sake of having sex, no strings attached. Honestly, I've done that. I've done the whole, let's put stuff on pause and I'm just going to fuck around while we're on pause, because that's the point of that pause, usually. It's like, I can't be in a relationship, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be addressing my personal needs. Torie: I'd love it if Aiden's arc never involved a heart song. Torie: I'd love it if Aiden's arc never involved a heart song from Aiden, if all of his music was- Dani: His music just him. Torie: Yep, and they could just- Dani: I feel like that would be really... Torie: Have a fuck session and no weird, emotional heart songs. Dani: Maybe he's so baked all the time, because he totally seems like a stoner, that he just doesn't- Clara: That would be a really fun twist on the, what is it, pure of heart, dumb of... What is it? What is it? Dani: Dumb of ass? Clara: Yes, pure of heart, dumb of ass thing. The way you can tell that he's pure of heart, dumb of ass is that he never has a heart song. He's just not deep enough for a heart song. Dani: He's just not that deep. Torie: I would love that. Dani: I do think he's probably stoned all the time, and I remember Mo making a comment about- Clara: He can be the Bella to her Edward. Dani: Dude, I was totally thinking that. Literally, I was all, that's really Twilight-y, though, if they do that, because then she's the one person that she can't hear the thoughts. Clara: All right. On that note, heart songs. So, love triangle or quadrangle or whatever the fuck buddy situation is going on, Aiden does have a good voice. Dani: It's fine. Clara: So, we will move on to talking about singing. There were only four true, genuine heart songs in this episode. They were, I Want to Break Free by Queen, which David sings, Juice by Lizzo, which Simon sings, Stronger by Britney Spears, which George sings, and I'll Stand by You by The Pretenders, which Emily sings, which did remind me, I'm not positive, but I feel like I might have in our trailer said that I Want to Be was by The Pretenders and not The Proclaimers, which is wrong. My three-syllable PR-beginning band names. Dani: They're very similar. No, I'm just kidding, they're very different. Clara: Very different bands, but the names are similar. Dani: Similar names. Clara: Yes. So, I just want to clear that up just in case, but yeah, we'll start with favorites. Which song got your juices going this week, Dani? Dani: You clearly gave it away. My favorite heart song is definitely Juice, sung by Simon. I just, I was not expecting it, and I don't know. It just looks like he had so much fucking fun with it. I think that's what I love about it. And he's just super into it. And then at the same time though, I would say I would probably tie it with Stronger by George, because I mean, obviously, it was just such a fucking solid number, but I don't know. I just loved how fun it was to hear a Lizzo song. Clara: And we were talking about how, we've seen more of it now, but just a lot of the songs have been a little bit old. And so, it's nice to have something that, not only is not old, but even though that came out two years ago, it's still everywhere. Dani: Yeah. But I still also want to know, I want to know what the fuck happened in that office, because that song is just... Clara: We'll find out when the article comes out. Dani: I was just, immediately, I was like, "Did they have sex?" Clara: I thought some of it might be, Lizzo is super about, as a person, is super about positivity, and especially about finding that black joy. And I did think their conversation about the fact that they are both high-powered black people in a world that is mostly, what did she say, as white as a cooking class or something like that? Dani: Something like that. I'm sure there's some post-episode interview out there that says why they chose that song. Clara: Probably. I should've looked it up beforehand. Did you have any thoughts about Juice, Torie? Torie: I just agree with what you guys said. The joy was just so palpable, and I just really, really loved that. He was just having a blast, even just recording it, he just clearly was having a damn good time. Dani: And I feel like even Zoey was just like, "Damn, you doing good." Clara: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's a great choice. For me, my favorite this episode was Emily's song. It was I'll Stand By You. I wasn't expecting it to make me cry, but I definitely leaked out my eyes a little. And some of that is the song, but I think a lot of it is just the amount of emotion that Alice Lee poured into that performance. It hit me on a really personal level, just thinking about some of the things we've been talking about, like how supportive Linear has been throughout everything that my dad has been going through, how grateful I am that he's my partner. And just knowing that, no matter how much of a mess I am throughout this process and when my dad eventually does die, he's going to be there for me and with me. And yeah, it just, it felt profound to me in a way. Clara: And you're on the other side of that, Torie, and I know you said this was one of your favorites this episode. So, I kind of wanted to ask you about that. How did it strike you? How did it fit into the things that you've been talking about? Torie: Yeah, it was my favorite this episode, because it was just wholly this moment where I was Emily and Emily was me. It also made me cry. When Peter and I first started hanging out and we were getting to know each other, and I had a huge crush on him, and he was just vaguely emotionally inaccessible, as young men in grief are want to be. And there was a summer before, after we'd started hanging out and before we officially got together, where he was in Denver, Colorado, where we live now, actually, and I was back in Iowa, and I started this playlist that I now still have going to this day that now is just songs that remind me of him or us. So, it's like a seven-year strong playlist now. And a lot of the songs I put on it at the beginning were, gosh, what's that song? There's a Gavin DeGraw song from one of his more recent albums. Dani: Is it Soldier? Torie: No, but I do really like that song. Where he's talking about, I know you think that I'm not going to be there, or I know you think you're going to scare me away, these kinds of notions, but, no, I'm here for it. Or Unconditional by Katy Perry. Those kinds of songs that were just very, whatever your shit is, you can lay it on me and I'm going to be able to handle it and I will help you through it. And so, this was just, it took me right back to that place. And it took me to just this out of body experience, almost, of seeing how far we've come and how much he's willing to accept my support now, and doesn't question it as much. And so, it got me, it got me real good. I have the goosebumps now just even talking about it, but yeah, it was just a moment where I absolutely was Emily and I felt every ounce of emotion she was pouring into that. And the way she was looking at David, as he wasn't even looking at her, and just all of it. Clara: I'm so glad that we have you on and that we get to talk about these things. And for me, I am just finding it so emotionally satisfying to hear. There's different things that you're latching on to in all of these same moments, but we seem to be latching on to the same moments, and it feels like it's giving me insight into Linear, into my partner. And I mean, he's very different from you, but I think there is some universality to the experience that you have, as well. And I'm just finding it very, I am enjoying getting that picture into what he must be going through. Torie: Okay, I have to ask you, though, based on that, in the episode where Max and Zoey had that fight while Max was cooking, and he was all like, "I want to know what's going on inside your head." Were you feeling for Zoey in that, and Linear was on team Max, because Pete and I were like, "You would." Clara: Oh, Linear is still convinced that Zoey was lying through that entire thing, that there was no heart song and she was just manipulating the situation to get out of it. Torie: Really? Clara: I know! He was like, yeah, relying on the fact that he knows that she looks this way when her powers are active so that she doesn't have to have the fight. I know, I think it's crazy. But if that answers your question. Torie: I just thought that they didn't want to make Skylar sing 18 times in that song, or in that episode. No, I just... Clara: Dani is like, Dani's got arms crossed. She is like, "What the fuck?" Torie: I just feel for Max, because he just wants her to lay it on him. He's out here being like, "I can help you if you just let me." And that is something that I had gone through at the beginning of my relationship with Pete, and meanwhile, Pete's over here like, "Max just needs to back off." Clara: I think, Dani, that's kind of how you and I talked about it. I mean, I think I have some empathy for Max in that situation, but I did feel like it, it felt to me a little out of character, because I felt like it was not very astute or empathetic. He knows what she's going through. Why would he do that? And I think Dani was talking about how she is shutting him out and that sucks from the other side. And so, I think I definitely can see that vibe. Torie: Legit. Clara: Okay. We are so far over time. Torie: Sorry, guys. Clara: No, no, no. It's great. But I'm going to move us along rather speedily and ask Dani to break down the Stronger performance for us. Dani: I don't know, I just loved it so much that I literally can't even explain how much I loved it. That's how much I loved it. And I just love Harvey so much and I'm going to miss him. Torie: I can still see in my head, like, (sings). I was like, "Oh, Harvey, you're killing it!" It was just so good. Clara: And the look on his face, I feel like all the facial acting he was doing just before that in that scene. And it kind of made me wonder, I feel like I didn't get out of that whether he was pissed at her specifically, or if he was just owning himself. Dani: I think it was a little bit of both. Clara: Yeah. I feel like he had to be at least a little bit pissed. Torie: For sure. Dani: I mean, yeah. It's like some fucking emotional whiplash right there. Anyways. Torie: But it was flawless, epic. Clara: Yes, it was. And I think Harvey, it was such a physical performance, and Harvey pulled off every part of it so well, and I remember thinking when he did the, I can't remember, there's some run in it that doesn't happen the first time, but does happen the second. And the first time, I was like, "Oh, did he just bail on the run?" And Linear reminded me that it's only in the second one. And then he did, and I was like, "That was a spectacular run. Good job." Dani: Yeah. I mean, they had to give him a really strong exit performance. Clara: Yes. Yeah. You cannot write Harvey off of a show without giving him a bang of an exit. Torie: I was trying to think of, I also feel like they underutilized him in The Magicians musically. I didn't know boy could sing like that. Dani: Yeah. He only got... No, I think he was ever even chorus in any of the musical numbers. Clara: Yeah. I don't think he's even in any of the musical episodes. I'm trying to think if that's the case. Dani: The only moment that is musically related that he's in is the one where Josh is getting high. But it's not a musical number in any way. He's just dancing along to the rap. Clara: Well, John McNamara, that was your loss. Dani: For real. Clara: All right. So then, the last true heart song is I Want to Break Free. I'm glad we finally got a Queen song up in this joint. Dani: It didn't sound like a Queen song at all, though. Clara: Maybe because the straightest character in the show was singing it. Dani: Yeah. I mean, there's that, but it just felt more like they made it into some kind of Broadway arrangement than a Queen song. I mean, I know- Clara: I mean, I feel like Queen is kind of like that. Dani: Queen has some vibes like that sometimes, but more in a rock and roll. It didn't feel like a rock and roll song. Clara: I feel like it was kind of a weird song for his voice. Torie: They buttoned it up a lot, for sure. Which I guess makes sense for this character, but I would have liked to have seen... I mean, it was in a courtroom too, so you take some, you leave some, but it was definitely a weird performance, Dani, I agree. Clara: I did really like though, I liked the choreography, the dancing in I Want to Break Free in David's number. I saw on Instagram, I guess Jane Levy sent him a screenshot of him being basically horizontal off of one of the tables, and then a picture of, I think it was a, I can't remember exactly, but it was some, I think it was a basketball player in some similar position, some gif. Torie: Oh, yeah, I saw that. Clara: Yeah. I was like, "That's brilliant. That's great." Torie: Also, I loved how during that heart song, Zoey at first was like, "I'm worried", and then- Clara: He looks at the baby. Torie: He went over to their baby, and she was like, "Oh, that's sweet. Just kidding." Clara: All right. So, in addition to the heart songs, we did get two other musical numbers, thanks to the karaoke party and Aiden's band. We got Opposites Attract by Paula Abdul, sung by Mo and a very reluctant kind of douchey Max and Sex and Candy By Marcy Playground, sung by Aiden. So, start with the first one. What did you think of the duet? Dani: It didn't affect me all that much, because I was just like, this isn't meant to be a heart song or anything. I was just kind of in for the ride, I guess. And I was just like... Torie: Well, I mean, it is a true-ass song. Opposites attract. Dani: Yeah. I didn't have too many feelings about it, though. Clara: One thing I liked, I mean, this is less about the song itself and more about the production, but I really liked that Skylar Aston didn't sing it like he was Skylar Aston singing. It was less polished. There were pops on the mic. And I just feel like I appreciate those touches that distinguished the sung songs from heart songs in the show, because there's no reason Max as a character should sound like a professional singer. Dani: He's probably not in real life, in his real life. Yeah. Quotes. Clara: Yeah, yeah. And so, I feel like it was kind of a nice little touch of authenticity. And some of that I'm sure was Skylar's making choices in the way that he was performing in that moment. But some of that is fully that's added back in and I just think it was smart. It was a really good move from the show. So, that's the duet. And then there's Aiden's number, which feels like it could be Zoey's heart song, but sung by somebody else, because she's definitely feeling some Sex and Candy about Aiden in that moment. Dani: I mean, I feel like I've already mentioned it a couple of times, but I'm not going to lie. That had me weak. I was like, "Oh, he's just so cute. His hair. I want to play with his hair. I'm sure she does too." Torie: I feel like that was one of those moments where I was like, this show knows deeply its demographics, because that's from now five? Yeah. Dani: We grew up with that. Torie: Now one, maybe. Yeah. And the instant I heard it, I, A, got very excited, and B, was like, "They're going to bang." There was just no other way to react. Clara: Definitely. I 100% agree. Aiden is totally sexy. You have convinced me that she should bang it out with him. I just hope that she's honest with Max about it, because I feel like... Dani: I feel like she's going to be, just from the promo that I saw, there's this kind of moment that Max is walking away from her. And I think it's probably something to do with a complication. Torie: How could it be Max and not be a douche about it, though? Clara: I'm not 100% convinced he's capable of that in that particular situation. Torie: He has too many feelings involved when it comes to Zoey. Clara: Yeah. Torie: Yeah. Because they're soulmates, and I get it. But also, if you wanted to give her space to grieve, and grieving includes just mindlessly banging it out. I would like to see Zoey trying to be honest with Aiden about what she wants out of him, because it will be gloriously awkward. Clara: "Hello, I would like sex and nothing more. Thank you. I would like one order of sex, please." Torie: And he would be like, cardigan. All right. Clara: All right. Well, this seems like a good time to shift to final thoughts. And Torie? Torie: I mean, I think for a filler episode, there were some really awesome, and there was a lot of really fun moments. Obviously, Stronger was just, it will just go down and it'll live rent-free in my mind for a really long time, because Harvey just killed it so, so hard. And I remember trying to figure out which Britney song it was going to be, because Harvey had obviously hyped it up on Instagram stories for the few days leading up to it. Dani: He also joked it was going to be If You Seek Amy, and I was like, "How would that go?" Clara: I did not realize that was a joke. Dani: Me either, I was like, "How is that going to freaking fit in?" Torie: To tell him. Clara: Yeah, that was where her brain went. I remember. Dani: But then as soon as she was going to have to refire him, I was like, "It's going to be Stronger." And then it was, and I was really excited. I think it was kind of a throwaway episode in terms of emotionality, outside of Emily and David. I think Emily and David's arc was really poignant and beautiful and I kind of love that they gave it the breathing space to not have to contend with a lot of other heavy emotions that episode. I think it really helped the piece that they found at the end of that episode shine and really resonate on its own, because it wasn't competing with any other storylines. And I'm going to be really upset if Zoey and Aiden don't bang. And I'm going to be really upset if it turns into an emotional thing, because it's just not necessary. And I totally... Torie: No, we don't. And I totally agree with you, Dani. He doesn't seem long-term. He doesn't seem like he's going to be necessarily in the show for a long time. And if he is, not in Zoey's life like that, but I think the girl deserves to just get it without having to worry about anything else. Dani: If anything's going to live in my mind rent-free, it's definitely the Sex and Candy number, and his beautiful Australian accent right afterwards. Torie: I was like, was he trying to mask it? Was he trying to mask his accent? Because it took me a minute to be like, "Does he have it?" Dani: No. Because she said something about our Australian neighbor. Clara: Linear was like, "Why is he Australian?" And I was like, "Because it's sexy, obviously." Torie: Correct. Dani: He plays music and he has an accent. Do you need any more? Torie: Was there smoke effects coming out of that garage, or was that just the whole vibe that I imagined? Clara: Or was he just hot? Dani: It was probably marijuana smoke, to be honest. Torie: I'm here for it. Clara: All right, Dani, your turn. Final thoughts. Dani: Honestly, I feel like I don't have too much more to say about it. Clara: Sex and Candy is just pushing everything else out of your brain. Dani: Sex And Candy. I mean, I liked the episode. It was definitely a filler episode, if you could call it that. I just liked everything that they touched on. Everything was still pretty important, even if it was a filler episode. And I just liked getting to see so many different people kind of have fun. Clara: Yeah. It is nice to get some positive vibes occasionally. And I do kind of like, I mean, I think it was a nice contrast to have Zoey deconstructing this whole choose happiness bullshit, but plenty of people around her do get to be happy. And I think Simon being one of those people and then being the person who is telling her, "Hey, you can be all of these things at the same time or none of them or whatever. Just feel your feelings, friend," was, I think there were just nice contrasts throughout the episode. Dani: I loved that there wasn't a romantic feeling to their conversation, at all. Clara: Yeah. Yeah. I think we've come to the end of our episode. Listeners, thanks for joining us. If you like what you heard, please subscribe. Share your five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Helps other people find our show. And if you want to follow us on social media, we now have the same name on Twitter and Instagram, @ourextrapod. Yeah. We figured out some tiny amount of social media strategy. So, join us there. You can see our texts back and forth to each other periodically from when we work on the show. So, that's everything, and see you next week for episode 205. Bye. Dani: Bye.