Clara:
Hello, and welcome to Our Extraordinary Podcast. I'm Clara.

Dani:
And I'm Dani.

Clara:
And today we're talking about episode 203, "Zoey's Extraordinary Dreams," written by Samantha McIntyre and directed by John Terlesky. Before we dive in, why don't you read us the episode summary?

Dani:
IMDB says, "Zoey's life is affected by a bad dream she can't shake off. Jenna helps Maggie spark her creative nature." We're back to very minimal descriptions.

Clara:
It's true though. I actually think this one works pretty well because there really only were these like two arcs in the entire episode. And like the Zoey's half of that does get a little bit more varied. And we'll talk about that when we do the deep dive. But yeah, it's really just like Zoey's dreams forcing her to confront the reality of her grief or whatever on the one hand. And then like Maggie getting back to work and recovering her creative drive with Jenna's help. But yeah, what did you think about this episode, Dani?

Dani:
I always really love the episodes where Zoey goes a little bit bonkers. Jane Levy is just like really good at that. Did you ever watch "Castle Rock" on Hulu?

Clara:
No, but we did watch some other show that I think she was in. I can't remember what it's called right now, where she also got to be kind of like wacky.

Dani:
Well, she's in the first season of the Castle Rock show. It's an anthology. So they're not like connected. But she's supposed to be related to the main character in "The Shining," Jack Torrance, like her name is Jackie Torrance. And it's based off of Stephen King properties. I definitely recommend it though. It's not really a horror-esque either.

Dani:
It's more like suspenseful than anything, but that's besides the point. I love this episode and we're really finally exploring some of the darker aspects with grief and how it can really come back to bite you when you're not expecting it to. I really hope that we get to see that with other characters in her family too. And of course though, I'm sad about the Zomax situation.

Clara:
Yeah. So I definitely can see that. And I agree with a lot of what you said, especially about the Zomax situation. We were texting about this a little bit. And while I like the cohesiveness, this episode is kind of bringing home for me some pacing issues I've been seeing in this season. Zomax came together really quickly after Zoe's dad's death. And like seemingly just as quickly it's on pause.

Clara:
So it's been a little hard to get a grip on the timing generally. Like in the premier, Zoey had been staying with her mom for three weeks. That's how long it had been since Mitch's funeral. And our two weeks passed that in like real time. But in show time, it's been two months. So I don't know exactly when we skipped forward and particularly whether we missed things in Zoey's and Max's relationship or whether we are just like picking up where the last episode left off. Because his expectations of her just seemed way bigger than makes sense to me for like people who've been together for a hot second.

Dani:
I mean, I feel like there's a couple of different reasons why that would be. I do think that they skipped forward in time, especially with it being two months. It had to have been like another month extra that they've been together, which is still like not a whole lot of time. But I think it also comes from the fact that they've just known each other for so long. So a relationship to them it's not that crazy for them to have such a developed relationship so early.

Clara:
I'm sure we'll have more to say when we get to that part of the plot. But I think we should go into our deep dive and start with some of the other parts of what's going on. So I mentioned this earlier, but there really are just two arcs in this episode. They're both a little bit complex. There's Zoey's dreams and the impact of her grief and lack of sleep on her work life and her relationship with Max. That's like on the one hand.

Clara:
And on the other hand, Maggie's return to work and creative life, which is spurred on by Jenna. There's bits and pieces here and there, but that's where most of the action lives. And I think we should take them in reverse because we're going to have so much to say about Zoey's side of this and particularly Zomax's, as evident just by our initial reactions. So we'll start with Maggie's arc. What did you think of that in this episode?

Dani:
I really just love how much insight we're getting into like other characters in Zoey's life, like her family. I feel like in the first season, most things were seen through Zoey's lens and now it feels like we're following other characters without her being there like a little bit more. I just want her mom to be happy because she deserves that. And I feel like there's a lot that Jenna can learn from her. So I really like that aspect. I also really loved Jenna's song.

Clara:
We'll definitely get to that in heart songs. We did talk about this a little. We were texting about this episode a lot this week. But the architect she was pitching to was definitely making eyes at her. It felt like borderline lascivious to me. I have a feeling they're probably going to get together or at least that he's going to pursue her and she'll probably consider it. I mean, they're going to be working together for a while on this project. What did you think of him?

Dani:
I mean, something about him like irks me and I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's just the fact that he's clearly some like rich privileged white man and it feels really tropey to me. I do think something will happen there, but I'm still hoping how he makes another appearance.

Clara:
What would we call that ship? Would it be Hoggie?

Dani:
Yeah. But it feels tropey to me. It makes me think of like the Gilmore Girls revival and how Emily moves on like really quickly, which just doesn't make any sense. And then... God, what was the other one? There's this "Four Weddings and a Funeral" reboot thing that they did on Hulu. And it's like a similar situation. This woman is like a designer and she just went through... It was a breakup though, but not like a grief thing.

Dani:
And then she ends up basically hooking up with the old rich guy that she's working for. So I don't like that. I hope she gets upset about it. I don't think she's ready to move on. There's nothing wrong with people who do move on right away, but that just doesn't feel like Maggie to me.

Clara:
I also feel like there could be some interesting ways to explore this and let her test out moving on on this guy, who is clearly not right for her, or at least... I mean, I don't know if we can say he's clearly not right for her from like the two seconds we saw. But both of us are like, hmm, not so sure. But you could have her sort of test it out and maybe get back in the saddles. Is that the expression? But not end up with him, like maybe have a fling.

Dani:
I can totally see her testing out the waters and then like freaking out.

Clara:
Yeah. I can see that too. And I think it's good for her. She's going to need to do that exploration. And if you want her to end up with Howie, obviously he can't be her first relationship if that's going to happen.

Dani:
Yeah.

Clara:
This is such a small, silly thing. But when we were watching the episode, we noticed that her proposal for the garden the first time, it's like a piece of paper that's mostly blank with some very, very light pencil sketchings and like some circles to represent bushes. I'm not a landscaper clearly, but I kind of feel like most landscaping proposals would be a little bit more elaborate than that.

Dani:
Yeah. They definitely usually are more complex. You're trying to sell yourself. And it's also obvious they usually are a little bit more complex with the plans that she shows later on.

Clara:
Oh yeah. I'm now remembering that we saw a little bit of her pitch too, which wasn't landscaping, but was still like gardeny, planty, whatever, with Simon and his ex fiance last season.

Dani:
Yeah. And the wedding party.

Clara:
Yeah. There's also the whole Jenna aspect of Maggie's return to work. She's just stepped right into Maggie's life and so far so good I'm not convinced it'll last. It's kind of like you said, she has a tendency to flake. How do you see it playing out?

Dani:
I feel like it can go one of two ways. As I mentioned earlier, there's a lot that Jenna can learn from Maggie. So either she's going to make some positive changes or she's going to dip, or it could be a little bit of both. There's bound to be a conflict obviously, but maybe it'll be like a quick falling out and then a quick makeup. What do you think?

Clara:
I think we're going to have to get some more information about Jenna and Emily's parents at some point. I can very easily see, like you said, her learning a lot from Maggie. And I think she already sees Maggie kind of like a mother figure that she didn't have. So we're going to have to have something to compare that with to understand why Jenna is the way she is and why Emily is the way she is. Why you have these two such different people.

Clara:
And some of that could be explained just by like sibling shit. But especially given that Emily is the younger one and Jenna is the older thing, that kind of flips the dynamic of what you expect from like sibling relationships. It's usually the older sibling who has to be more responsible and gets all the crap for like not being responsible enough and then the younger one who gets to be a free spirit.

Clara:
So I feel like there's something else going on in that family dynamic and I'm really curious about it. I also feel like her approach to helping Maggie is very informed by her time with a life coach. Though I did really enjoy the free association, especially the first one where she's like, "Plants," and Maggie's like, "Friends."

Dani:
Yeah. It is making me wonder the Emily and Jenna thing. I feel like Emily is not very close to the family as she would want to be. Even in the first season, Zoey was saying, "We're not friends. We're not really close." She's like, "I like her. It's just like, I don't really know her." I could also see Emily being maybe a little bit salty that Jenna seems closer to Maggie than she has been able to get.

Clara:
I can definitely see that being a source of tension. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just really curious to see it all play out. I think it'll be fun fireworks.

Dani:
Yeah.

Clara:
So that's most of what I had on Maggie and Jenna. Is there anything you wanted to add before we move to the sort of meat of this with Zoe's dreams and sleep deprivation?

Dani:
I don't think so.

Clara:
Okay. Well then we'll move on. And I will say, just looking at my script, I think I wrote four times as much for this as I did for the other arc. The A plot in this episode is definitely this one about Zoey's dreams. And you had talked previously about the show maybe trying to move her through the five stages of grief. And while we're not getting like labels on them, it's not that obvious, this definitely feels like we're starting to get into her grief in earnest at this point. So how did you feel about this arc? Did it resonate with you and with your sort of experiences?

Dani:
I mean, the cool thing about the five stages of grief is they aren't linear. You don't have to go through them and you can re-go through certain points of it. It's never like a one-and-done thing.

Clara:
That's a really good point.

Dani:
But personally, it didn't resonate with me. I've definitely had fits of like really bad dreams here and there, like reoccurring ones, but nothing quite like that. Obviously it's trying to tell her something, especially since it seems to be her powers are like manifesting in her nightmares at this moment.

Clara:
So creepy.

Dani:
The sleep deprivation thing is really something I completely understand though.

Clara:
Yeah, you do. You have a lot of trouble sleeping. I have noticed that in our five years of friendship.

Dani:
I do. But mine has nothing to do with nightmares. Mine is just the fact that I can't fucking fall asleep. And then when I do, it's always at the like inopportune times.

Clara:
The dream itself that she had felt really creepy to me. And part of that is the fact that the house had almost no furniture in it, which is just like inherently creepy. So she's trapped there, but she's also trapped in there completely alone, except for like a few isolated artifacts. And then you have the variation on it that she gets at the end, where she like opens the door and there's another version of herself that she sees.

Clara:
I mean, there are so many different interpretations that you could have, but to me her dream struck me as being a little bit about like not knowing who she is now or how to get back to the person she was. But I was curious to hear if you had any different interpretations.

Dani:
Honestly, I'm not sure. I thought it was really creepy. It felt very like horror movie to me. And I think it's something along the lines of like you need to listen to yourself. Like when she opens the door, it's like a really pretty put together version of herself. Maybe it's something like this could be you, but you playing. But I really think she just like needs therapy at this moment.

Clara:
She does. How does she not have therapy yet? That just seems wild to me that she went through this entire experience of her dad dying. And like her whole family did. And none of them have talked to a professional.

Dani:
Well, her family does kind of have this like little like hippy-dippy ish kind of vibe. Like if you were middle-class at the same time. So I don't know. Her mom is pretty free-spirited, it seems like. I mean, there's like a Kamasutra book that they show in the first season on the bookshelf.

Clara:
I don't remember that. That's a great catch.

Dani:
But maybe they're a family that doesn't necessarily believe in therapy. So it might be one of those things where she needs someone to say something to her.

Clara:
I think there's also a lot of people who, it's not that they don't believe in therapy, but they sort of have all these latent ideas about how therapy is just for people who... like there's only certain people who need therapy and that's not me.

Dani:
Like they're above it.

Clara:
Yeah. They view needing therapy as a weakness. And I could very much see, especially Zoey, but like all of her family kind of struggling with needing to rely on that kind of help. I can't just sort out my emotions on my own. You look at Zoey and to a lesser extent, her brother... I don't really see this in Maggie, but we haven't seen as much of her. And they're very driven and ambitious people.

Clara:
It's very like, go, go, go. My life is on a train to the moon. I don't know. This metaphor went a little wild. But they have a track for their lives that they are expecting to follow. He's a lawyer. She is in this tech world. She has like made her way up the ladder pretty quickly. And so I think when you are sort of in a family or in an environment where, I wouldn't say you're necessarily trained for that, but where there is a lot of expectation around a very standard version of success, a lot of people really struggle to see that as compatible with therapy.

Clara:
The other thing is of course, being sleep deprived, Lisa's struggling to perform at work. She falls asleep more than once and frustrated in her personal life with Max, who's carrying on as normal because things are normal for him. His life is pretty standard issue at this point. On the work front, Simon gives her the good advice that she should maybe delegate a few tasks. But let's just say it doesn't quite work out how she hopes. What did you think of Tobin's Brogrammer jerseys?

Dani:
For one, she probably shouldn't have delegated that to Tobin. Like that's on her.

Clara:
She assumed a little too much maturity from him.

Dani:
Yeah. I love Tobin. He's usually just like a good laugh. He's clearly like there to be that character for the most part. And I kind of thought it was funny because he's like, "Bro is gender neutral," which is a very California thing. I call everyone bro.

Clara:
He was calling them. That's what that was.

Dani:
He was. But it just made me laugh because it is a very California thing there in California. I call everyone bro. But it's a very heinous Jersey. I was like, ooh, this is so ugly.

Clara:
What do you mean? It's just a bat. He's just holding it. You're seeing things.

Dani:
And then he kind like sees it though. He knows. He knows. So ugly though.

Clara:
And how did you feel about George and the egg bar?

Dani:
I mean, I think eggs are nasty.

Clara:
Me too. I don't really understand what the obsession is with them.

Dani:
I really haven't been a big fan of them. I like eggs in things I guess like a good breakfast burrito, but I'm never going to be that person that orders something that's just eggs.

Clara:
I like eggs in things too, like baked into a cake.

Dani:
Yes. I do like eggs for breakfast if it's like a full plate of breakfast, because I'll usually put my bacon in the yolk or something.

Clara:
Yeah. But hard-boiled eggs are pretty gross.

Dani:
Yeah. And deviled eggs are fucking nasty.

Clara:
I like deviled eggs okay. We actually had a bunch of them around the new year.

Dani:
I also don't like quiche. It's like an egg pie.

Clara:
I don't like quiche either or frittatas. In Spain they just call it like tortilla, but we call it a tortilla espanola because it's like a frittata that has potatoes in it. And you have it warm. You don't have it cold like you have quiche sometimes. So it's basically just like fried potatoes and eggs together. And that's pretty good. That's basically just like breakfast. Okay. We've maybe talked about eggs too long.

Clara:
I did find it notable that Tobin and George both fail at their tasks. And Zoey is pissed at Leif too for letting them play baseball inside a giant office full of glass windows, which like, what the fuck was he thinking? But we didn't hear anything about how Mackenzie got on with the suggestion box. And I wonder if that's going to come up again or if we're just supposed to assume that she, unlike her male colleagues, is actually competent.

Dani:
I do think it's the latter. I think it's just that she's actually competent. I mean, I'm sure they might go back to the suggestion box in that like maybe there's...

Clara:
Some snarky suggestions for Zoey.

Dani:
Fuck over. Yeah. Leif still needs to figure out how to not let the boys be boys, I guess.

Clara:
Yeah. He still has a little too much of like I just want us to all be friends and for you to like me. Zoey seems to have gone completely the other direction.

Dani:
Also, I did laugh about the Mackenzie being like one of the only people who played softball. It made me laugh because all I was like, she's gay.

Clara:
I just turned delinear and I was like, gay? I pointed at the TV and I said, gay? She had that vibe from the beginning.

Dani:
She really did.

Clara:
I feel like there's a lot of things that give her that vibe, but we do need a lesbian character.

Dani:
We do. Yeah.

Clara:
So we should turn to Zoey and max because we have so much to discuss. How do you feel about things getting put on pause for that?

Dani:
I do feel like this aspect was a little bit rushed. It's like one episode later. They were so happy one episode ago. So it feels very just like too soon. But at the same time, in my head I was logically thinking like maybe they just are kind of rushing things a little bit just in case they end up having to put things on pause again for COVID and they wanted to tell as much story as they can, when they can.

Dani:
It could be something like that. I mean, I know that the first season kind of jumped around a lot timeline-wise too actually. It's not as noticeable because of this. But it was like quite a long period of time. The first season embodies like a good amount of time.

Clara:
Yeah. I feel like it was at least a calendar year, which you don't normally get in TV shows. TV shows like this are usually pretty closely hued to like one week equals one week formula.

Dani:
Yeah. Which the show doesn't know do. I mean, obviously, it was I would say at least six months of time. But they jump around a decent amount. So it could be that. It feels really sad to me and it makes me feel really sad for Max because I just feel like he's been given the ring around so many times by Zoey that it's just like, I don't know. I do like the way that he handled it. He is very adult about it.

Clara:
Yes. And I liked him being like I think maybe I asked you too soon because I was so excited. If we push on this, then it's not going to be good.

Dani:
Yeah. I mean, it just felt like a really adult conversation, which is what I love about this show, is it just feels really accurate. I feel like it's a conversation that someone would actually have in real life when facing issues like that.

Clara:
I liked that part. I didn't love the specific issues that they were having. Like some of Max's reactions there felt really out of character to me, especially because it can't have been that much time. We know the timescale from the first episode to this episode is like a month and a week. That's how much time there's been. They've been together for a few weeks, at most, at this point. And for him to have all these really strong expectations of her to be like a super present girlfriend, knowing what she's going through, it just felt a little weird for me. It felt a little off.

Dani:
It didn't feel too out of character for me. For one, he does bring up the Simon with that kind of like, "Simon?" Kind of voice. I mean, clearly that's still an issue for him. That's still something that he's a little bit bruised of the fact that she even had to make a choice. It's probably something in the back of his head. I mean, he even like points it out. He's like, "You can't hold things against me that I'm subconsciously thinking."

Clara:
Yes. And we should definitely get back to that question. I put this in our heart song section because I do think it's really interesting to talk about the heart song that we didn't get to see.

Dani:
I have a feeling it was the same song.

Clara:
Okay. Well, I'll ask you that explicitly in a few minutes.

Dani:
Okay. We'll get back to that. But I do think like, to me it felt really in character because he does have these like snap reactions in the first season.

Clara:
Yes, he can be a little hard headed. That's true.

Dani:
Yeah. He's definitely tort.

Clara:
I see we have decided.

Dani:
He's definitely a tort. Yeah, it felt in character. But I just love how adult the conversation was between them. At the end of the day, that's what he cares about.

Clara:
Yeah. And I hope it's true. The one thing that made me feel kind of frustrated about this in this episode is that it is sort of coinciding with her and on a friendship level, but like getting close with Simon again. And especially after hearing the rationale for breaking the love triangle early, it's like, that's a good rationale. Adults don't pull this crap. I really just don't want the show to pull this crap.

Dani:
Yeah. I don't know. I do want to...

Clara:
You want to explore Simon and Zoe?

Dani:
I want to explore Simon and Zoe, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm tired of the love triangle. I think a lot of people are. A lot of the people that I've talked to that love the show love the fact that it's so like accurate and real. It feels real. They love how adult like the conversations are and like how the characters are. So I hope that it doesn't go there.

Dani:
I'm hoping that Simon actually wouldn't be okay with it because Simon is now friends with Max. So you have like that bro code going on. So I'm hoping that, even if she tries to because of grief, which she might, he says like no.

Clara:
Or independent of bro code, like just doesn't want the drama. I would hope that he would see this as you're not ready. One difference between him and max, which they talk about in this episode, is that Simon does know what she's going through and he knows a little bit of what her head space is like. Whereas Max might jump the gun just because he's excited and he doesn't have that part going through his head. Simon having experienced it, I think and I hope if Zoey came on to him would be like, "I don't think this is what you want basically when you're not under the influence of your grief."

Dani:
Yeah. Like you're going to regret this.

Clara:
Yeah. So just from like caring about her and wanting to not involve himself in a situation that seems very volatile and like drama ridden would be like we stay friends.

Dani:
And it's nice though because we did give the conversation that we were literally just talking about in the last episode, like, are they going to talk about it? And it was pretty much exactly what we thought, just like Max told...

Clara:
A couple episodes faster than we were expecting it to happen.

Dani:
Yeah. Exactly. I love though that Simon was just like, "I just want you to be happy. I just want you to be okay." Because that's exactly just how I imagined Simon would be.

Clara:
And he was chill about it. I mean, I think that was the best part, is that there was no transition of like him taking a moment to be butt hurt.

Dani:
Yeah. And obviously, he wasn't lying about it or else we would've gotten a heart song. Yeah. So it was genuine, which I really liked.

Clara:
Yeah. Okay. So speaking of heart songs, you ready to move to that section of our show?

Dani:
Let's do it.

Clara:
So there were five heart songs in this episode, if you include the one that Zoey sings in her dream, which is I think a good open question. They were Nowhere To Run, which originally it's a Motown song by Martha and the Vandellas, which Zoey sings in her dream. Someone you loved by Lewis Capaldi, which Maggie sings. I'm Only One Call Away by Charlie Puth, sung by Jenna.

Clara:
It's a Hard Knock Life from the musical Annie, sung by the brogrammers. That's how I'm going to refer to the coders that don't include the women since the women were notably absent from that number. And Say Something by A Great Big World, which Max sings. So we'll start with favorites. What heart songs struck the biggest chord with you this week, Dani?

Dani:
I mean, I was not familiar at all with the first two songs, Nowhere To Run or Someone You Love. Obviously I know Hard Knock Life. I'm actually a huge Charlie Puth fan, so I was really happy to hear that song. But my favorite is definitely... I mean, I'm pretty sure you can guess.

Clara:
Well, I did when I texted you, what was your heart song for this week? And you said guess.

Dani:
Just take a wild guess.

Clara:
But why don't you say it for our listeners?

Dani:
It's Say Something by Max. I just love that song. That song has always struck like a big chord with me because it's kind of like he's using it in like a grief aspect, but you could also really use that as like a mental health aspect. Because a lot of the times if you have depression or anxiety or something like that in your life, sometimes you will kind of suck at being in a relationship.

Clara:
Well, you just get very focused on the things that you're going through because they take up so much space in your own life and your own brain.

Dani:
Yeah. And a lot of the times you'll shut out your partner from those feelings and it's just like they just want you to say something, like just talk to me about it. So I've always taken that song in like that aspect. But it was just like so heartbreaking to hear. For one, I mean, Skylar Astin just like fucking catapulted that song into another level. There's so much emotion there, even in the way that he performs it.

Dani:
Obviously it's like an ADR is like put over it. But just like the emotions in his face, it was heartbreaking like. And it was hard. And even Zoey walking away from him, like not wanting to hear it and trying to shut that out. I just loved that whole scene, the choreography of it. Yeah. It made me feel a lot of feelings.

Clara:
This definitely brings out the sap in you.

Dani:
I know. I love that that scene though and the scene afterwards between the two of them, like the relationship dynamics and that power dynamic conversation is brought back up. How he can't see where she's at and then she's like, "Well, there's nothing going on in my mind." She's just in this very apathetic part of her grief.

Clara:
Yeah. I mean, it's what depression really is, which is not like feeling bad feelings all the time. It's like feeling empty and nothing.

Dani:
Yeah. Feeling empty. And he brings up some valid points. They're both right. He shouldn't react a certain way, but he also deserves more. That's the thing, it's like, he shouldn't have to put up with it just because she's grieving. And there's just nothing wrong with him wanting to take a break. I think I read a couple of people being like, "Oh, he's being like an asshole." And I was like, "No, he's not."

Clara:
I don't think he's the only one who wants to take a break. I think she does too. That's why she's bringing it up is because she doesn't feel like she can be there for him and she doesn't want to destroy this thing that means something to her.

Dani:
Yeah, exactly. They want to put things on hold so that their relationship can still happen.

Clara:
So there's a chance for it.

Dani:
Yeah. I don't know. Did you take it as like a breakup or are they like legitimately just taking a break?

Clara:
I mean, I don't really know the difference when you've just started a relationship. They haven't really had much of a relationship at all. I see them as not being together. At the same time, I don't think Max is going to go date anybody else anytime soon. And Zoey, if she's smart, is going to just like focus on herself for a bit.

Dani:
Hopefully. But yeah, I don't think he would try to move on or see anyone else. And I think he's still going to be there for her as much as he emotionally can just because he has been there for a long time now, despite his feelings.

Clara:
So on a scale of one to ten, how in love are you with Skylar Astin this week?

Dani:
20 out of 10. I'm just like constantly joking. I'm just like, am I in love with Max or am I in love with Skylar Astin? He also has a habit of playing characters that are very similar to him as a person.

Clara:
Well, in contrast to you, I didn't feel like there was one song or one performance that resonated with me more than any of the others this week. I definitely think that was a very emotional performance. I just felt like there was a lot of balance. There wasn't one thing that kind of summed everything up or brought it all together for me in that same way. But I was really fascinated by Zoey's song mostly because it's such an interesting cover. And I mentioned this before, but it was a Motown song. Would you have guessed that from listening to it?

Dani:
No. Definitely not. It felt like a old school, classic rock song or something.

Clara:
So it's from 1965. And I actually thought it might be interesting to sort of play them side-by-side here because they're so different. The words are the same. And obviously there's a little bit of that darkness in each since they didn't change that, but they changed the harmonies a lot from the original and I think it gives it a pretty different feel. So here I'm going to play the clip from the original for you so you can hear what I mean.

Clara:
(music)

Dani:
Oh, I have heard the song. Yeah. I was like, I've definitely heard this song. I think it is because they sound so different.

Clara:
Yeah. And compare that with the version we got in the show this week, which is slower, darker, grittier.

Clara:
(music)

Dani:
Very different. Is there like any other versions of it that they like took from? Maybe there's like a rock version from like the '80s or something. It felt like really '80s to me.

Clara:
I didn't see anything about that, but I also didn't look too hard. I thought I would sort of share some of the background on this song. So [inaudible 00:33:51] was just like Googling around. So not real research. But he told me he found that it was in the movie Good Morning Vietnam, the one with Robin Williams, which is about the Vietnam War and about the sort of American radio that they... This was like a thing during the Cold War, where like the US would play music and radio from the US in communist countries to try to like win the culture war.

Clara:
So this was apparently a big hit with American soldiers who were in Vietnam during the war and it was one of those songs that played over and over and over again on the radio that was like ported in from America. And the lyrics don't fully reflect this. It's clearly not just like straight a story song. But the person who wrote it, it was inspired by one of her relationships that she had with a soldier who was being shipped off to Vietnam.

Clara:
And so right before he got shipped out, he told her he didn't think he'd be coming back. And then he died a couple months later. Even in the original that is super poppy, I think you get a little bit of that haunted vibe. It's not that she's trying to escape the relationship. The thing that's looming over is this like specter of death.

Dani:
So it's very much kind of like a grieving song so that that makes sense.

Clara:
Yeah, it is. I'd heard the song before, but I never would have guessed that from the original without looking into it like this. We looked into it because it was such an interesting cover and so different. What did you think of the song and of Jane Levy's performance of it in this episode?

Dani:
I feel like that had to have been really tough for her. I mean, obviously she's not actually completely alone when she performs the scene, but like just that emptiness. It had to have been probably really raw for her.

Clara:
Yeah. And I think it's a very physically demanding performance too, like the dance in it.

Dani:
Oh, absolutely.

Clara:
The choreography looked physically demanding from my eyes.

Dani:
And there is a lot of it. I mean, she has the dream like three separate and they're different. It's not like they're just doing the same thing.

Clara:
Yeah. And I can't remember, does she go downstairs in one of them?

Dani:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Clara:
Right. That just takes a lot of control too, to be able to do that kind of dance on a staircase.

Dani:
Yeah.

Clara:
Anyway, I feel like I could talk about this one song forever, just because it is such an interesting performance and it's such an interesting cover. But we have I think three more left to get to. So if you're okay with it, we'll move on.

Dani:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Clara:
So the next one is the number that Maggie sings, Someone You Loved, which I wasn't familiar with either. What did you think of it?

Dani:
She has such a lovely voice.

Clara:
Mary Steenburgen?

Dani:
Yeah. So it always feels like a treat whenever she does get to sing for us and the way that she moves around. She very like floats along you when she dances. I don't know. I really liked it. It was really sad to hear. It's not quite as like grief ridden I feel like as some of the Zoey's numbers, but this one still is like pretty hard, especially because it comes after the conversation where Zoe's trying to tell her like I should move back home. But she decides not to because clearly seeing how hurt her mom actually is.

Clara:
Yeah. I feel like Maggie is a character, she is very accepting of things. I put it in air quotes for people who cannot see because they are not on the Zoom call with us. She is very accepting of things, but it's not like she likes them. She's still going through grief. She's just like, I guess this is my lot in life. And like you, I really like when Mary Steenburgen sings.

Clara:
She has a really beautiful voice. And also it feels a little bit less polished, which I think is partly due to her age, but I also think they're sort of leaning into that in the way that she performs to give it a type of emotionality that's different from what we're seeing from the other actors. The shakiness of her voice sometimes adds this sincerity and gravitas to her performances. I don't know. I find it very compelling.

Dani:
Her kind of lack of control in this episode and feeling a little bit lost kind of reminds me of the episode in season one where she freaks out on those girls over the lemonade and finally admits to needing help and having her kids help her out with their dad.

Clara:
Yeah. In her heart songs, in the way that she sings them, she can't hide the things that are under the surface the way that she would want to do the rest of her life. So that's Maggie's number. And then of course, there's Jenna's number, which is just, oh, it's so hilarious. The earnestness on her face when she was performing, just how open her face was.

Clara:
There was this very like, "Please pick me, please, please, please." I loved how Zoey was like, "Nope, we're done." I love when she has those moments anyway, when she's like, "No, no more hard songs. I'm done with this bullshit." In the middle of that has to like save face. So what did you think of this number? What did you think of Jenna, her first performance?

Dani:
I liked it. I think she had a really nice scene voice I really like this song. It's an interesting choice considering it as a love song. But I liked it. I thought it was interesting. But I do also like how you said Zoey was like, "Nope, we're done." Just like she did to George in the first episode.

Clara:
Yeah. I wonder if we're going to get more of those moments now because she's sort of dealing with so much and feeling so overwhelmed.

Dani:
I feel like it. I mean, she's already had quite a few kind of like outbursts, more than she had before.

Clara:
So that brings us back to the thing that's not technically a heart song, but the moment when max sees her zone out and she admits that he might've sung something to her, but won't talk to him about it. And you were saying earlier that you think he was probably just singing Say Something again? It was just before we got to see it.

Dani:
That's what I was thinking.

Clara:
And you think that's just because it's the same general feeling for him?

Dani:
Yeah. I mean, the only thing that I feel like would be a little bit harder to believe if that was the song he sang the first time was the whole like I'm giving up on you thing. I feel like that's a little early for that. It makes more sense when he sings it later. But maybe it was like a similar song like he needed to open up to me. But I felt like it might be the same one.

Clara:
It did make me wonder if we're also going to find more moments or what the volume is on heart songs. We're seeing things from Zoey's perspective most of the time. That was one of the few moments where we really did get out of her perspective. We only see it from his point of view. And it'll be interesting, as you were saying, like this season is opening up to more perspectives. Does that mean we're going to have more moments where we're not aware of what she's seeing or experiencing from other people?

Dani:
I don't know if there'll be too many more moments because Max knows about her power. So they can use it in that way. I feel like it would be a little hard for them to do it for like the characters. I don't know.

Clara:
We've talked before about, is Simon going to find out about the heart songs? That would be a kind of interesting way for him to find out.

Dani:
Yeah. I have a feeling she's going to have to tell him at some point. Because he's probably going to be there for her a little bit more now that she's not with Max and she's definitely going to need someone to talk to.

Clara:
I can also see that being a thing that makes him feel really betrayed. Because as you were saying, she used so much of her inside knowledge of him to form this friendship and relationship early on.

Dani:
Oh yeah. I feel like he'll feel really betrayed, but I don't think he would just not talk to her kind of like the way that Max handled it.

Clara:
He'll just be like, "That's really fucked up."

Dani:
Yeah. But like still ultimately be there for her because I don't think he would leave her on the side of the road to deal with herself.

Clara:
Yeah. Okay. So the last song we have to discuss is the big comedy number, the brogrammers singing A Hard Knock Life from Annie. I cracked up when they started this, just like the looks of disgust on their faces, George pulling his Jersey over his head in that one. It was just like so perfect and hilarious. And you were saying that it was like a close second to say something for you, which I think is really funny and like saying something, no pun intended, because they are such different songs and Say Something is all about heart and this is just all for the LOLs.

Dani:
I mean, I love the LOLs there. When I heard it, I was like, shut the fuck up. You guys have nothing to complain about. So it just made me laugh because it's like, they're all feeling so defeated because their bros got sent to another level. I'm just like, shut up.

Clara:
But they're a bunch of like highly paid, very privileged dudes.

Dani:
Exactly.

Clara:
And I did find it very notable that none of the women were in that performance. Mackenzie is there half a second before and she just like ducks out of the heart song. It leaves a lot unsaid or perhaps unsung.

Dani:
I feel like it's just because it is just them throwing a fit that they don't need to be throwing or obviously like the women don't have anything to throw a fit about yet. Oh God, it just made me laugh. And they sang it so well. I actually just like always loved like the workplace, like numbers. The way that they incorporate the furniture and things into the performances always cracks me up.

Clara:
I also feel like they're saving...

Dani:
And there's always something that she's like, "No, no, no, no, no," whenever it's happening.

Clara:
Part of the reason they ducked out, I feel like the real behind the scenes reason is because they're saving it for Mackenzie to have a number of her own probably in the next episode. She needs to have a real heart song.

Dani:
Yeah. I'm sure the women will have their own heart song too. It'll probably be kind of reminiscent to like the one with Joan and like the...

Clara:
What they do or Franklin respect. I could see that being.

Dani:
I could see that. I could see that.

Clara:
It could be fun.

Dani:
Yeah. I can definitely see that.

Clara:
All right. Well, either way, whatever it is, something to look forward to. So that's everything I had for heart songs. Do you have anything you want to add before we go to final thoughts?

Dani:
No, I don't think so.

Clara:
Cool. So I'll go first this time because I made you go first last time. I have mentioned most of these things already, but just to recap, I felt like it was a really cohesive episode. There's only really one or two arcs happening and very tightly plotted and well-executed. And I think if it were a standalone episode, I would just think, "Oh, this is great. I love it."

Clara:
Especially like in Max and Zoey's arc, it sort of made me start realizing the sort of feeling of rushedness in this season and particularly in their relationship. That didn't land for me as well because I would like for us to give this the time that it deserves and to map it out. And it also made me nervous, like I said, about Austin Winsberg saying that they resolve the love triangle so quickly.

Clara:
I loved that explanation and it just made me worried that it's like BS, which I would find really disappointing because I like that explanation. I think it's smart. And like the people you've been talking to, I don't want to see them lean into a love triangle when every other fucking show on TV does it.

Dani:
Yeah. I really hope they don't too. I mean, at this moment, I still have some high hopes that that's not what they're going to do. I feel like they're just going to maybe show how good a friend Simon and Zoey can be without romantic feelings there. It was a very like mature decision between the two of them. So I feel like if they kind of like had her act out, it would kind of make that like non-existent. So I feel like they're just plotting it into a way to be like, okay, we're going to make Zoey and Max like work really long-term, but they're not quite there yet.

Clara:
Yeah. And that is sort of related to something I was thinking, is that when things start to feel rushed in a show, usually I feel like it's because the show knows where it's going and either doesn't have adequate time to get there. And you sort of mentioned this around like the COVID stuff, like if they're afraid they might have to stop filming again.

Clara:
They're like packing things in, or they're just really excited about, which I relate to as anyone who has ever walked anywhere with me knows, when I get close to where I'm supposed to be going, I just like speed up out of there at the end. As a standalone episode, I liked this. It felt more like an episode five or six of the season than it did as like episode three. So those are my final thoughts. What are yours, Dani?

Dani:
That's what's crazy. You just pointed out that it's only the third episode and I'm like, fuck, you're right.

Clara:
It is only the third episode.

Dani:
It feels like it would be like the fifth. I feel like they could have also like sped things up because I feel like that's something that people like our age also have done and are guilty of is jumping into a relationship that they're not quite ready for. I've definitely been there. And so they did the smart and adult thing of putting it on pause.

Clara:
Whatever that means.

Dani:
Whatever that means. It's for the time being. I feel like they're making the smart choice.

Clara:
Okay. So outside of just that Zomax though, what's your summary final thoughts of this episode?

Dani:
Just that I loved it. I love the episodes where they're just so good at kind of combining the grief and the darkness with the humor. That's my shit. I really like humor.

Clara:
It's your dark sense of humor.

Dani:
Yup. So I'm still excited for the rest of the season.

Clara:
Me too. Ironically, it makes me feel more impatient to figure out where they're trying to get us to.

Dani:
I can see that. Yeah.

Clara:
So I think that's everything that we have for this episode. Listeners, thanks for joining us. If you like what you heard, please subscribe. Slap a five star rating on Apple Podcasts to help other people find our show. Thanks to everyone this week who did that. We've got like our first five ratings and that was very exciting.

Dani:
Oh wow.

Clara:
Yeah. We got five five-star ratings as of yesterday. I haven't looked today. So yeah, keep doing it. It makes us love you all the more. And we'll see you next week for episode 204. Bye.

Dani:
Bye.

Dani:
(music)