Let's Slay Your Marketing Tech Overwhelm w/ Jen McFarland [00:00:00] What is up brothers and sisters. Welcome to the Mitch gray show. We are visiting with Jen McFarland today. Jen is the founder and owner of women conquer business. Jen, welcome Mitch green show. Hey, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we had a great time chatting before. Um, that's one of my favorite times with the guests to be honest is before and after the show. Right? Get to bounce things off, actually get to know each other because I've never met any of these people in person. Usually. I love that part too. When I had my show going, it was like, sometimes I just wish we could have taken the pre show that out. Cause sometimes that's where all the gold is. So, but I've saved up a lot for you. Don't worry about it. Some you didn't, you didn't spill all the dice that went one, one time. Huh? That's good to hear. Good to hear. Um, Jen, I love, we're going to kind of get to what you do here in a little bit, but you described yourself, described empathetic. Tech [00:01:00] translator. And when I read that, when we first talked about having you on the show and I read that, I was like, okay, no matter what else has said, if that's all we say is, is define an empathetic tech translator will have done something good for someone. So tell the people, what is an empathetic tech translator. You know, one of the biggest things that my clients always say about me is that I'm super grounded and that's kind of funny because I'm also kind of a goofball. But in, you know, in my regular life, I like dad jokes and things like that. But when I'm working with people, technology can be really stressful. And when I was working in the corporate world on city of Portland, huge projects that affected like millions of people, sometimes they just needed someone to say, okay, this is just what we want it to do. And if somebody can just hear you out, whether you understand technology or not, A lot of technology is about making a vision come true, but that's really what the beauty of technology can be. That's why so many people, I think [00:02:00] it's magic. Yeah. Yeah. What you need in the beginning is somebody to say, just tell me what you want to do. I'll see if I can make it happen for you. And that's the essence of what an empathetic tech translator is. It's not stopping the person and saying, well, you didn't use the right word. It's not explaining what technology is and what it can do. It's actually listening to the vision and then taking it back and either working on it yourself or working with another person who will be implementing it. So it's really just translating. What somebody wants into a technical technical paradigm. And that can be really difficult. There are a lot of people who are either super techie and they can't make that connect back to someone. Or there are people who are just visionaries and you can never quite get them, you know, grounded in that place. My special skill is that I'm able to, to capture the essence of what [00:03:00] that vision is. And help put that into action for people. Um, and I've seen a lot of really cool results, whether it was in the big corporate world, or now when I work with small businesses. Yeah. There's an artistry to it, right. It's like, it's like anything else in life. And it kind of, one of my sayings in 2020 moving into 2021 has become business is art. And so often we forget, it's almost like we've pulled the humanity out of. Business and out of tech and out of all these things, but we forget, we're still dealing with humans who have their likes and dislikes and, and, and when we talk tech, you know, for me personally, I think a lot of people it's like, Oh yeah, the person in the room that doesn't like to talk to anyone who basically says, well, what you need to do is this. And then, you know, what's going, I have no idea what I was just told that I need to do. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that a lot of times. Because it's so stressful [00:04:00] for people. It's about kind of dismantling that. And before answering the question about yes or no, or can do or can't do it's about hearing that person out. So that then if, if there's something in the beginning that says, well, that's a, no-go, maybe there's something downstream and you can start making those trade-offs. And a lot of times people are willing to get. Parts of what, what their vision is, so that they can build into something and lean into it. But too often, um, you know, it goes, it goes two different, two different ways. One time, you know, a lot of times the techie people aren't involved early enough. So everybody's so far downstream that it's like, well, no, we have to do it. The other part is, like I said, the techie person stops and says, Nope, it's a no-go without even listening. And understanding. And then the third dimension of that can be when somebody understands the system or how all the pieces are connected together. [00:05:00] And they actually can open up new possibilities that VIN know existed. And that's really where kind of the magic is, is where you can somehow make things simpler or easier for somebody. And they hadn't even considered it because. Because there's that education gap, you know, and, and that's, that's really another spot that I just absolutely love. And, and I think that's why people think of it as magical. And I don't necessarily think of it as magical life. I see it as like, well, you just kind of hook everything together and, and it works, but for a lot of people it's magic. Um, but the bottom line is I feel like we do automation and we do all of these things. So we free up space so that we can be more human because I would really, you know, I work in technology, but I'd rather talk to you, right. That's more interesting than sitting and looking at the back end of active campaign or HubSpot or WordPress or whatever. So it, it is kind of what makes me different is that I [00:06:00] have kind of these two. Two sides and it is an art and a science, like it is both. And I think that many people could say that about their discipline or their industry. Is it it because we're human, it has to have both sides. And when it becomes too dry, um, then people just have no interest in, in what you're doing and they kind of cast it off to the side and, and that's what happens a lot, uh, with. Operations the tech and all that backend part of your business. Yeah. It's like the old saying too much of anything is not a good thing. And that's kind of what you're alluding to and it's almost like, you know, yeah. Technology has been a great vehicle, right? I mean, we're sitting here, you're in Oregon, I'm in New Mexico and. We're conversing, like we've known each other for 15 years and it's awesome and fun. And it's been a lifesaver, especially over the last year, um, during the pandemic, but at the same time, when you do pull all of [00:07:00] that humanity out of it, then it becomes lifeless. I mean, the human spirit is really what gives those type of vehicles of the life that they have. And, um, and when we too often forget that, that that's when a lot of our issues kind of come about. So I want to come back to that in a little bit. I know we're going to talk about a subject that you, you and I both enjoy. And I want to come back to that idea. Um, women conquer business, uh, digital marketing operations consultancy, and your focus is on entrepreneurs and small businesses. Um, tell us real quickly, a little bit more about your company, why you started it. Um, how, how you're surviving, I guess it's how it's happening still. Like that's the big marketing operations consultancy. Uh, I do. I also have a master's degree in leadership, so everything comes with leadership and ownership and really it's about that, that [00:08:00] handoff and helping people champion their initiatives and saying, okay, well, here's how we can do it on the backend. Mapping it out for people. And then, and then helping them take control, hand over hand off the reins. So it's, it's a little bit different where I'm going in and looking at the whole landscape of what people are doing. Oftentimes it does focus on marketing. It doesn't have to, but any more, like almost everything comes in to play, especially now since the pandemic, you know, I'm working on a digital marketing. Model that actually is centered around payments because now everything everybody has to do e-commerce in one way or another. So now it's like, okay, well, payments become the center of like the e-commerce universe and the digital marketing universe. So then what do we need, you know, to make all of that happen? You know, we're going through this really transformative time. So what I do in my consultancy is help people see the landscape of everything that they have. The things that they can take out a little dash of what needs to be [00:09:00] added, you know, and then, and then having it run as smoothly as possible, given the industry, you know, the number of years in business, three to five-year business schools, right. We try to tie everything into like your broader strategy, get people out of the, the tasks and the kind of the hamster wheel of just. Going through and chugging along because oftentimes people are okay or maybe they don't know that they're doing all this, you know, repetitive data entry or doing all these things that really take them away from the whole reason why they started their business in the first place. So it is kind of a bigger question, a bigger thing that we're trying to achieve here, which is helping people get more freedom in their business. Uh, by straightening out the backend of their business. Yeah. Have you seen a difference? Um, let let's talk barriers for a second. So I think there's the obvious barriers, especially when it comes to technology, whether it's knowledge [00:10:00] or willingness or lack of capacity, you know, you're especially dealing with small businesses, um, entrepreneurs, I mean, there's a lot of capacity issues there. It's oftentimes. Maybe one to 10 people doing the work of a hundred people, especially if a company is scaling. So have you noticed a difference in the barriers pre pandemic versus Deering pandemic? And what are those barriers look like if they, if they've changed at all or, or has it just been kind of a shift of issues? I think it's more of a shift of issues. I think that what we're seeing at the beginning of the pandemic, some people were like, well, I'm just going to write it out. I'll maybe sit this out for a while and see what happens. I'm not going to, it's like, you're going to check out. I'm going to check out for three months and then come back and then come back. And then when and happen now what we're seeing are all of these people who are like, okay, I can't. I can't hang back anymore and they're, they're jumping in and, and it's great because [00:11:00] what we're seeing is a lot of imperfect action, which is really when it comes to your operations and your business. That's, that's what this whole thing is about. Like, you try something for a while and you're like, this isn't really working, so I need to do a different thing. But when it comes to like showing up online for some people that is a really big deal. And I, and I honor that and I understand that. And what the pandemic did was it said, well, You're gonna have to show up online now, boom, this is happening and it's, it's shaken up a lot of industries. You know, I've spoken to some restaurant groups recently about, you know, how we can kind of, you know, make some changes and some shifts for them because their industry has been suffering so much. And yet, you know, people want to order from local businesses. At least they do here in Portland, Oregon. And I think there are a lot of other places where that's the case as well. So. There are a lot of things that people can do. It's about that willingness to kind of open up and explore the possibilities. What they've said in the broader [00:12:00] sense. Like if we're going to be, you know, nerdy leaders for a second is that digital transformation has sped up by five years since the pandemic. So that means that like, whether you're at scale and a large corporation or a small business, all of those things that you thought would be nice to have suddenly you have to have it now. Yep. So what, what we're seeing in terms of a shift, I think are more people stepping into the leadership or the champion being champion of these different initiatives within their business, because now they have to, and isn't that the case isn't there a quote somewhere that's like change happens when it's too painful to stay where you were. I mean, that's really what we're running into right now is this like too painful, you know, we have to make money and we have to get customers. Yeah. Everyone is locked away or for the most part locked away in their homes until, you know, we get herd immunity or whatever's going to happen, but suddenly we can hug people again. And, and so, so as long [00:13:00] as that's going on and we have to find ways to reach out to people, um, get new clients, make it as easy as possible for people to buy from us and not lose our sanity or humanity. Yeah. I love that. Not, not lose our sanity or humanity either. And it's like a fine line. Right? We're walking this tightrope that it's like on one day or the next I may lose one or the other, you never know, Hey, some days you may lose a bull that's when you go and like pet your dog, you know, or go for a walk so that he can come back to it later. Yeah. Yeah. I, and, and I think, I think I would want a hundred percent agree. I think it has just been the shift in perspective. Um, I'll never forget a company that I was working with when this very first happened. So last March, um, they, you know, did like all the other companies did kind of shut down for three weeks to a month and then it was an auto group. And so then they started bringing people back and I connected with the owner and [00:14:00] I said, here's the deal? Um, I'm going to adopt this saying, and I want to share it with you first, because you're going, people are going to have to get this innovators are going to thrive during the season. And after the season, the traditionalist will not survive this. They just won't. And he was like, what do you mean? And I said, you're going to have to find a new way of doing business. What you've done with your auto group. The last 25 years is not going to work any longer. Period, no ifs, ands or buts. So to survive this season and then to thrive in the next season, it's going to take innovation because the services you're going to add that you are not used to adding. And if you keep them after all of this and the restaurant world to me is a prime example. How many restaurants have you seen at least in my part of the country where they're building these new outdoor, like I know multiple restaurants that have doubled their size capacity only because they've built outdoor. You know, dining [00:15:00] and now they can keep it, you know, now they keep, they didn't have that before. And so the people that were innovative and kind of accepted all this and you see it, I know multiple small businesses that are, that are quadrupling in size during a pandemic. And it's totally related to what you just, what you just pointed out. Absolutely. And the longer this goes on and I, and to your point of what you just said, the longer, this goes on, the more these things are becoming. Permanent disruptors. Like in the beginning it was like, well, it was an inconvenience in the beginning. Right. It was like, yeah. But now like for, for an online, for a dealership, you've got to go online or you have to find everybody's had kind of a crummy online, buy a car experienced from a local, a local. Now it's about like, okay, how. How are they doing it in other places, you know, and how can we then extend our services in a way based on, you know, customer expectations. I mean, the. [00:16:00] Consumers have new expectations now. And by the way, they're not going away. Those expectations are not going to go away. They're not no, because the trends were already there since we're already there. And now it's like the, the chart instead of this gradual, you know, like frog in the boiling water scenario. Now it's suddenly like, Oh, the water is real hot, you know? And, and we're not turning the oven off as, as consumers. And I think that. What really helps business owners or leaders is to look at what the favorite experiences are in the world, so that then they can begin to adopt those and replicate that. Because if you can take, take yourself out and look at your business from your customer's perspective or perspective customer's perspective, even for just a minute, sometimes that's really eyeopening. Yes. And then you can kind of open the doors to the possibility of, of what's going on. And I think the first step [00:17:00] oftentimes is what is it that I like, what websites do I like to go to? What are the online shopping experiences that I have that have been so easy that I'm like, I'm just going to buy from them forever. And sometimes that's the door that can open and really change things for people is, is kind of like looking at the world through a different perspective. That ties directly back to your, your word empathetic, right? Because that's, that's really the sheer essence of empathy is where do I like to shop? What connects with me and how does that relate to the customer base that I'm dealing with? And it's really Donald Miller's adage. You know, the customer's the hero, but business owner, isn't the hero, the workers, the hero is the customer because without those clients, without those customers, You can have an all-star team. You can have the greatest product in the world, but you're not going to move on. It's not going to go anywhere without treating the customer in a way that is full of empathy and compassion and [00:18:00] understanding. And, um, and I th you know, while I do know there are a ton of businesses out there that get that. There are still far too many that don't and you know it right away. Right. You know, when you try and return an article of clothing that you just purchased and you get preached at for 15 minutes about how inconvenient that is, it's like, yeah, I'm not going to shop here anymore. Yeah. And, and what we're finding is that, that it's even more. I mean now it's like, don't argue with them at all. No, it's amplified by a million. Yeah. And I think a lot of them that, you know, I was having a conversation with a business owner last week where she was like, I just, I just don't have time for all of this extra work I'm having to do, you know? And I think that as consumers, we feel that way. And I think as business owners, we feel that way. And I think a lot of it is that. It's stressful. It's stressful to go to the store right now. If you have children, like, are they going to school three [00:19:00] days a week? Which three days is it? Are they, you know, everything has this like really heightened sense of whether it's fear or having to organize or both. And everything is like upside down. So sometimes you just want things to be easy. That's what we were used to. That's what we were used to convenience was keen. I mean, for, for, especially for us in America, it was like, everything was convenient, everything was convenient. And as soon as those conveniences got pushed off the cliff, it was like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to do. We don't know how to function. And so, yeah, it's, it's incredible. What what's been, as you've been talking to business leaders, what's kind of been the biggest barrier there. I know we talked about barriers regarding technology earlier, but. There's been this shift and we've both seen it in talking with business leaders from a year ago to now, what would you say has kind of been that biggest barrier and challenge? Um, for [00:20:00] people in leadership positions? I think. That's a really, I mean, my head is just swimming with all these different ideas. I really think it has to do with the stress of an overwhelm that it can be that you, you feel this pressure that you need to make the right decision in a time of tremendous uncertainty. No meaning we don't know what tomorrow will bring. So. How can I possibly make this life-changing or business shifting decision if I have no idea. And the truth is we've lived in this, this volatile, uncertain world for a very long time, and we just kind of accept it. But right now, because everything is so strange and it has been for a year and we've been mentally tired and overwhelmed all the time because now like going to the grocery store requires like a business [00:21:00] plan or something. So what happens is, you know, we just wear out a lot quicker and then, and then you're like, should I pay that bill now? Like you find this link, mental tiredness around the mundane. Um, and then when it, when you think about it in terms of, do I want to spend thousands of dollars on this thing when, you know, I mean, it's, there's so much going on in the world. I think that there's this paralysis around that. And yet it's really the time to kind of just jump in the stream and float along and do the best that you can because the longer that we wait, it just prolongs or makes it harder to swim and catch up. Yeah, the worst thing we can become as paralyzed. Right. It's um, that, that's something I believed in, gosh, I guess since I was a kid, I don't know if I heard it somewhere or what, but somewhere early in my life, that kind of got ingrained in me where the [00:22:00] worst thing that can take place is inaction being paralyzed, not doing anything. And I think you're right. I think. Um, I think we do see that in not just leaders, but an individual's periods. Like, like you said, do we wait this out? What do we do? Where do we go? And it's like, just do something like, and the crazy, the thing is now's the great time to take a massive risk because no, one's really expecting a whole lot. It's just. Just do something really. I told someone that the other day was like, what's something that you could do that would just set your soul on fire that we maybe the most crazy thing you would think about doing, but just take action on that. And he was kind of like, wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. I'm like, I know, because right now it feels like no one's soul is on fire. We're just kind of waiting complacently. Absolutely. And, and I think that a lot of people get caught up in. You know, time and money, but there's like this value, right? You can do things that don't cost a [00:23:00] lot of, a lot of time or money. It's it's about having that like creative time to unlock, you know, right before this interview, actually, I was like, you know, I just need to, to, to bliss out for a minute, you know, and I just listened to this, like, Shocker balancing music. I know it sounds like super woo woo or something, but it's like, it's not the news. It's not social media. It's not any of these other things. The music doesn't have any words, so I'm not getting like caught up in anything. And, you know, I don't know if my chakras are balanced, it feels good to listen to it. And so what I, I think a lot of people don't take that time, whether it's, you know, meditating or running or. You know, whatever it is, kind of step back, take a pause and then really dive in. Because if we don't take these time doubts, you know, we don't spend some time with ourselves, but not engaged in [00:24:00] something else. Then it's really hard to lead. It's really hard to, to recharge your batteries. If we're just. Like sitting in the Stu all the time, if that makes sense. And right now everything is super hot. So you got to take some time out. Yeah. The latest data I've read is like mental health issues are up by like 64%. Um, I, in fact, I was on a, uh, clubhouse, uh, call. Two weeks ago. And it was kind of a bunch of coaches that we've got to get out is actually invited to be on it. And it was really cool because the topic was burnout. And, and one of the things, one of the questions that was asked by someone in the room was about mental health and, um, and that that's some interesting data to read right now. I think, um, I, I think it does show a real picture of the complacency we're talking about, uh, The isolation that, that people are feeling right now. But what's interesting to me is as I've been in leadership positions in my life, [00:25:00] um, especially in my days in ministry, you know, heaven forbid that a leader has burnout or depression, or like you just leaders can't be vulnerable that way. Right. And, and so when we're talking, if 64% of people are expressing mental issues, A large capacity of those have to be people in leadership positions because we know as you've just well painted the picture, those leadership positions are in high, you know, high pressure moments. But no one wants to deal with that. It's like, what, when are we going to, even though we've done a better job at dealing with it, when are we really going to deal with it? This is the question. And I think you're kind of alluding to some things there about what it takes to be a leader about what it's taking to be a leader in this moment in time. And I think one of those things that's going to take leadership to the next level is vulnerability. Like. Did those people have others to lean on? How can we create environments where [00:26:00] it's okay for a leader to go. I sucked today and we still have to make some big decisions. I need some help. Um, yeah. Are you seeing anything? And it may not be leaders saying this specifically, but just so signs of that burnout and of that frustration and those challenges that people are facing as you're working with those, those leaders. You know, it's, it's interesting that this is one of the reasons why I say take a step back from social media. I think if you look closely at social media, you're going to start to see the cracks in the veneer of people. You're not seeing as plastic and fake. There's like it slips in there, you know, but there are a lot of people who are still. You know, operating as if everything is fine. And I think we're starting to see people say, you know, this is not fine, right? This hasn't been fine for a year. This is very difficult. And, and it starting to happen. I think, too, that, you know, look, I, I, [00:27:00] I'm grateful every day that I have a husband at home with me, two dogs, you know, you were talking before we started about your family. And, and I think a lot about, you know, One of my besties. Who's like three, three doors down who doesn't have a partner. Doesn't have, you know, people living in the house with her, you know, so she's part of our bubble, but we're not together every day. And then I think about all of the other people who were in much more stressful situations than myself. And I think there have to be a lot of leaders in, in those households too, that are living in. A much, much more difficult situation than me. And I feel like it, what we need to do is make sure that we have these, these groups and these places where we can have some very real conversations professionally. I have a few groups where we're networking and it's, but it's not the nearest totally down. It's [00:28:00] more like helping, helping each other, build our businesses and, and, and talking about what's really going on. This, this fall, I lost my father very suddenly. Um, he passed away. It wasn't from COVID, but you know, I had talked to him an hour before and everything was fine. And then, and then he's gone and you can't go through that. You know, we've lost, you know, almost almost 500,000 half a million people in this country. In addition to people like my father who died of heart disease and all the people who were dying of cancer and everything, we're going through this tremendous period of loss and grieving, it's not normal. And we have to start talking about that and having really honest dialogues about it. And I think that as leaders, we need to find other people, we also need to realize it in our remote teams that we have to let go of some things. And allow our teams to take [00:29:00] on more responsibility because that's, what's going to take the pressure off of ourselves so that we can continue to elevate our business and innovate. If we're down in the weeds all the time, not thinking about the broader vision, boy, it's really hard. It's really hard to. Innovate. And right now the weeds don't necessarily look super pretty. There's a lot of tending in the weeds right now. So to spend that time, whether it's, you know, personal time to kind of clear, clear the brain space, um, and then also setting aside time in our businesses where we're just not in it, we're just thinking envisioning. And I think that that's, that's what we need. And then the third dimension of that is also. Some sort of conversations that you can have that will allow you to blow off steam when you're having a bad mental health day or reaching out and finding a mental health provider who can help you through this. And then having people that you can talk to and [00:30:00] be around whether it's virtual or in person, you just alluded to something that, um, I, I don't remember where I was having the conversation, but we were having a similar conversation and. You use the word grieving. And, um, but the notion was brought up that, you know, we're, we're going through this as a world that it's not just America going through this work, you know, there's half a million people that have, that have been killed by COVID in America. Like I can't worldwide. I don't know what the numbers are, but it's, it's unfortunate now how many? And. Most people aren't taking, we're not taking the time as a community to really sit with that. And to really what I like to call, sit in the ashes of what that grievance looks like and what history tells us there is when you don't stop to grieve and to appreciate [00:31:00] that comes back to haunt you in, in one form or fashion. And. And I think you're exactly right. I think there's a value. And, and to me, the greatest way we can do that is if someone is listening and they're running a business or they're just a leader in their family or whatever that is, I, I think it's us in small segments taking that time to grieve, taking that time to acknowledge and that collective energy. Well, actually do a lot of redemptive work on the mistakes that we've made and on the things that we've not acknowledged because, you know, th th that in the end, there have been some beautiful things that have happened this past year. Culturally, there have been some things that because of the magnification inspired by COVID-19, it has brought to light some issues and some opportunities for us to deal with things, but we still have a lot to deal with. And. Uh, that can become super overwhelming. But again, I think where it starts is that leader who's [00:32:00] running a small business or that department manager or that mom or dad, or that coach, or that friend next door inviting that conversation to take place. And I just, I love, you know, first of all, my heart to you for your dad, but, but I really do admire and love that you used the word grieve because we don't use that enough. Right. We just. It's a number. It happened, it's an activity we move on and we go forward. And when you don't ever grieve things and kind of sit with that in that moment, the healing doesn't take place. It's impossible for it to take place. If that, that doesn't, you know, you don't partake in that grieving. Absolutely. And it doesn't need to be grieving death. One of the things that we, we don't talk about is like, If, if you fail, you need to reflect and you need to grieve that failure. And that, that grief is where you find those opportunities to change and do something new. And it's when, and [00:33:00] I have this problem myself, I'm a hard charger. Like I like to go onto the next thing. That's how I work, you know, but I have to tell myself, you know, Nope, we need to celebrate this win. So we need to grieve. We need to grieve this loss, you know, and. One of the reasons in my blog, I talk about gratitude and leadership all the time is because I feel like we all need to remind ourselves of like all of the great things that are going on. And then it, it does make space for those little times of, of grief. Like we don't need to sit in it forever, but acknowledging it is what allows us to move things forward. Um, it's not just all of the wins it's having, having an acknowledgement and, uh, in a relationship with loss. But is healthy so that we can then move things forward. And I think part of what keeps a team going is this like genuine, authentic gratitude, and you can have gratitude for things that have gone wrong, [00:34:00] and you can be grateful for the people on the team that make mistakes, especially if it opens something up. And even if it doesn't because there's, there's always a treasure in there. And that's one of the things that. That really grieving and reflecting on what's been lost, whether it's in your business or in your life or both that that's where you're going to find the treasure. It's not in being like, well, we made it through Tuesday, right? That's not necessarily going to do it, you know, but, but taking that time to really reflect on things and, and share that the blessings or the gratitude, um, what you have to be thankful for, that's, what's really going to help you move things forward. Yeah, celebrating success, celebrating wins. I, I am right there with you. I'm terrible at it. Just, I'm just terrible. At it. Years ago, I had a therapist, Mitch, you have to stop and celebrate things and I'm like, why I have so much more to accomplish? I have to keep it. She's like, no, you, [00:35:00] you have to stop and celebrate. And really it's the counterbalance right? Learning to celebrate the good and learning to grieve when things don't work out is actually one in the same. It's one in the same type of work. And, and I totally totally am right there with you. It's but we do, we just, you know, the perfect example of this, oddly enough is after a sports event, especially if it's a major sports event and they're interviewing, you know, like you saw it in the national football league a few weeks ago, both teams won their conference championship. They're headed to the super bowl. And what's the question the interviewer asked, well, what do you think about getting to the super bowl? And the players are like, We just want to celebrate this. We're not even worried about that yet, but that's kind of the epitome of it. Our culture, right. Is it's like move on to the next, move on to the next. And, and I really believe that's actually stemmed from a fear of sitting and being fully present in the moment. Because that is such a vulnerable thing to do. And we don't like looking at the [00:36:00] shadow. Right. We don't like dealing with that. And I think in leadership it's even more pivotal, it's even more pivotal to be able to sit in each and every moment, boy, edit is hard. I mean, that is like upper upper level leadership is being able to just be mindful all the time, you know? And, and I've talked to some pretty cool people about that. Uh, Radical acceptance of what is, you know, there's, uh, Patricia Thompson has been on my podcast a couple times because I just love her groundedness and how in her work with leaders, she's just like, okay, have you taken some time? And they're like, I don't do any of that meditation junk or I don't do, you know, like there's all this, you know, and then, and then when they spend the time to, to sit. With themselves, you know, that is when things start to open up. And, and I can say that that's true of, of myself, you know? Um, I, I took a lot of time off in the fall. [00:37:00] Like my whole family was upside down and all of a sudden I was like, you know, I could do this with my business, or I could do that. You know? And I'm not even thinking about my business because I've got like these big family issues I'm dealing with, but it was space. Yes. Yes. And I think that. We have opportunities to create space any time, not just when there's a big tragedy. And I think it was like an eye-opening thing for me, which was like, okay, I got to rest more. I have to take some time away. You know, I got to listen to my shocker balance for music or whatever it is, you know, and, and it, and it helps to do that. And I think that there there's this way that we can do, like, I mean, I don't even know if this is a thing. But like kind of an active rest where like, you're not just like a blob in front of the TV, you can be like resting and enjoying and, and like kind of blissing out. And then things will come to help. You. Favorite people to read [00:38:00] is tech, not hon, um, the Buddhist monk. And he, he basically, in my words, he basically talks about how everything can become meditation. And so he'll. You know, he talks often about walking meditation and he talks often about when you're eating food, you know, eat it slow, remember be appreciative of what it took to have that food, et cetera, et cetera. And, and really that's exactly what he's inviting people to do is that every moment can be a moment of meditation if we're fully present in that moment. And when you look at that from a leadership perspective, I mean, I, you know, I think back to all the years and in my personal experience where I'm dealing with employees or dealing with people or dealing with clients or whatever it is, raising kids. And you start thinking about all the moments that you may have missed because you were so focused on the next moment and it just makes you kind of stop back and reflect and stop and reflect and go. Yeah. I, if I, if I was just, could be [00:39:00] just focused in that one moment, um, easier said than done, but when you look at it from a perspective of. This conversation is a form of meditation. This exercise is a form of meditation. This engagement is a form of meditation. It really shifts your perspective and your mindset going into that moment. Absolutely. And they've done study after study saying that. Multitasking is a myth. There's only like 2% of humanity that can multitask. And you're not one of the everybody out there who's listening and saying, well, I'm in the clearly I'm in the 2%. Probably not, probably not. And I think that we all tell ourselves that we can, but true mindfulness. If you find yourself saying things like, I don't know how I missed it. Well, well, are you thinking about tomorrow or, you know, or were you eating your lunch and reading the newspaper [00:40:00] and scanning social media all at the same time? I mean, people do that stuff all the time. There's a real beauty in it. Not doing mass somewhats. Clearly it doesn't have it all figured out. I'm still working on it. You know? Um, these are the struggles that we have. And I think that if there's a way that we can break through on that, especially right now, when we can tend to word overwhelm, I think a lot quicker as leaders, as business owners, because there's so much overwhelming in our world in the broader world. Then if, if we can clear some of that other clutter away, I think some of our innovative ideas, uh, will emerge, you know, and then you gotta call one of us to help you through it. You know? I mean, that's, that's kind of the, the other part is, you know, it, it's not a time to take on more than your, what your specialty is. It's actually a time to. Get help with things, you know, before we started, I was [00:41:00] saying, you know, I'm going through a rebrand. Well, I hired somebody. I hired people to like, help me write things and help me design things. Then help me get my brand, um, communicating more clearly, which is why, when you said empathetic check translator, like I'm like, Oh my God. You know? Um, so, so it is a time. Get those, get those people on your side that are really going to help you shine. And. Now's a good time to do it. Yeah, that makes sense. I think of two things. Um, number one, you've, you've mentioned a few times the idea of remote teams and we talked, you know, kind of pre-show about, you know, for years, people were talking about the power of remote teams and most businesses, especially corporations were like, no, no, no. Even though they were technically outsourcing to remote teams across the world. Anybody that seems to hear no there, but yeah, that, that idea was so they were so defiant against it. And now all of a sudden it's like, well, here you [00:42:00] go. Now you have to have remote team. What, um, first of all, what are, what are maybe some tips? Um, because I know in talking to leaders and you and I talked about this as well before the show. You know, leader leaders of businesses are being asked to. Operate and run things differently than they've ever done before. And I personally don't think that's going away anytime soon, even, even though we may open, I mean, you kind of see it with big corporations. I mean, I love watching the real estate industry and it's amazing how many big corporations are just selling real estate off right. And left because they're like, Hey, if we can cut costs by two. Two or $3 million a year and still be successful. Why not? And so I don't think it's going away, but what are, what are maybe a few tips? Um, we're talking about empathy and we're talking about compassion and we're talking about celebrating successes and grieving, you know, mistakes. So what are some things that leaders could do to equip themselves with this idea of empowering their remote [00:43:00] teams? Um, from a leadership perspective, Well, first of all, I think it was always a myth that if you were at the office, that meant you were working, there had been a lot of studies around this, you know, how much time people actually waste. So this idea that we need to rent space and or own, or build space to have people in one place, you know, because that's where their they'll work. That's a myth. Now, there are some teams that you might gel better if everybody's in the same room. And I get that like different different industries offer different things. One of the biggest things that, that we can do as leaders with remote teams is put together some sort of framework around time management and understand that, you know, when people are home, they've got, they've got kids, they've got pets. They have. [00:44:00] Maybe spouses who are also working from home. I mean, there's like all kinds of stuff coming and going. So it's really about communicating around time and leading through time and understanding that people, people weren't working all the time anyway. So when they were in your location, so understanding that you need to be flexible around time, be clear about the priorities. And then again, it's about like keeping things, moving, putting together a framework around organization, so that it's clear what the files are and where everybody can find everything. So that, that collaboration can happen. You know, whether you're using something like Slack or even just like Google drives and things like that, like make sure that all of that stuff is open and known so that the communication channels are open. And at the same time, don't expect technology to replace everything that you had in your office [00:45:00] situation. Yes, it will be different, but you have to be open to the idea that it could be better. No. And always be, but now you have different ways and different avenues of, of communicating that is, that are real time. And yet you can't expect employees to be on it like one in the morning and responding to it. Right? So it's about setting up boundaries around time, about empowering your employees, um, or remote workers. VA's whoever it is that you're working with, it's about empowering them to accomplish a set set of tasks. And then like if they're babysitting on their lap and it's happy and it's still happening, it's about, you know, Celebrating that this is about making sure and things get done and it happens and not necessarily worrying as much about the how. And I think that that's probably a [00:46:00] forever thing. That's going to start changing in some environments. You know, the, the last project I worked on at the city of Portland, I led, um, an IRS data share with the city of Portland. So it was like, I was working with mucky mucks at the IRS and. You know, people here in Portland and we're trying to figure out how to share tax information. I can tell you that most of the people I worked with at the IRS were remote. You know, this was gosh, at this point, that project started maybe seven years ago. So at that point, IRS had said, we can't afford all these buildings with people in call centers or whatever, you know, and they have a very sophisticated technology. Program that I don't even understand that like allows some people to work remotely, to save, to save space, to save time and energy for the workforce. And it seems to be working really well. I don't see that [00:47:00] going away. I see that actually increasing and improving, but what we have to do is understand that that changes some of the dynamics of our relationships with each other and like how the work needs to flow. It takes time to work the kinks out on how that works. But I think on the other side of it, it can be much more productive and really great. And you know, it just takes time. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I don't think it's going anywhere. And, um, you know, it was interesting or probably it was probably in may, April or may. I don't remember. I was talking to someone who, uh, I actually don't remember where she works, but she was complaining about. How the remote issues were being handled. And I was like, what do you mean? And she said, we'd literally have to clock in at eight o'clock. And we clearly can't clock out until five o'clock. And we have to check in every hour on the hour and show certain progress on our work. And she's like, what they don't [00:48:00] understand is I've got three kids I'm trying to do homework with, and I have to cook lunch and supper and breakfast. I mean, it was just one of those things that you're like, Oh my gosh, Can we be more, any more, less compassionate than that? I haven't talked to her since I would be interested to know how that went. You know, my, my thought is she probably ended up quitting and so did everyone else, because it's just impossible. You can't do it. Well, were you doing that before? Right? Probably not, but it's a control issue. It's a control well issue. Right. And that was a big thing from leadership perspective is it's like, Let's be honest. Why did they really, really want people in the office most of the time, because it's a control thing I can control you. And now all of a sudden it's like, why can't control them anymore? So what are we going to, what are we going to do? Yeah, well, I w what I would say to the leaders there is, you know, Why did you hire these people if you can't trust them to get their work done? Yes. And is that a reflection on the people or is that a reflection on [00:49:00] leadership? It's a reflection of leadership. Yes. And I think if you don't trust your employees and you want to do all of that, the good ones, aren't going to stick around it, employees around for that, they'll go someplace where they have the freedom to get the work done and, and meet the priorities. And. You know, and not have to put up with all of that other stuff. And, and then the bad employees are the ones who stick around because they're like, well, I'll just see what I can get away with. I can just, you know, I'll clock in and, you know, check in every hour. And, you know, I mean, productivity goes down in those scenarios and the, the, the, the people that are kind of the bad employees, quote, they. Also were complaining to their friends about how miserable the job is. And so you're getting a double whammy because they're trying to manipulate the system, not doing a very good job and still complaining. And so now you're known as not a great place to work. Yeah. Which doesn't help you [00:50:00] in your community or with customers or anybody. So it, you know, the wheels definitely go round and round and, and this is why stuff, where it is. So important for, you know, meditation and reflection. I mean, all of that is really about building out your own self-awareness as a leader. So that then you can be like, you know, I'm really overwhelmed at work all the time. I'm overwhelmed at home. I'm trying to balance all of these things, showing that empathy and compassion that like, man, you know, maybe somebody who's making less money than me. And has more responsibilities than me at home. Maybe it's hard for them to, and, and what can I do as a leader to empower them to do the best that they can and set reasonable expectations and goals. Yeah. Let's, let's go this direction. That, that makes me think of a question I would really like to dig into with you as we kind of start rounding things out on the show. Let's say [00:51:00] we have a leader that's, um, listening to the show, you know, maybe, maybe they're your perfect client or running a small business, or they're an entrepreneur or whatever. And they're sitting here listening to us, talk about empathetic leadership, compassionate leadership. If they look at either one of our social media platforms and stuff, they're going to see that same stuff. Um, all the time, what are, this is the leader that's like. Kind of what you said earlier. They're not really buying into, um, the whole thing yet right there, but they know they're struggling. They know they're struggling. They know it's a challenge while there may be three tips that you would give that leader just to begin the inner reflection and the interpersonal work of considering those ideas that we've discussed. Boy, this is hard because. You know, some people are very resistant to it. I think that where it can really start, you know, it, it, it really does start with you as leader. One of the [00:52:00] basic exercises that you can do. And, and if you have people at home that it works really well is you, you sit down, if you have breakfast or time with whoever's in your house, and you say, what are three things that you're grateful for? And you can't say the same three things every day, but you ask it every day. What are three things that you're grateful for? And that begins to get you in a different mindset around, you know, kind of reframes the day a little bit, and it gets you in a different mindset around what the good thing with the good things are in your life and in your world. When you focus on the good stuff, you start to see it everywhere. If you start focusing only on the negative things, then you start to see that everywhere. So one of the simplest shifts you can do is even just setting, setting that up. And if you don't live with anybody, you know, have like an accountability buddy that you've got to like send them an email and they have to send you an email, something to kind of [00:53:00] get you in that place of. You know, every morning and he'd have three things, they have to be three different things. It can't just mail it in and say, I'm grateful for my house food and house, the house, you know, um, which as someone who was in the peace Corps, I can say that there are a lot of people in this world who don't have that. So it's not to invalidate being grateful for that. It's to say, uh, you know, if we're fortunate enough to have that, that stability, then. The chances are very great that you have other things that you can be grateful for. And that's why, like, you know, so much as many people feel like they're in survival mode right now, there are a lot of things going on that are good. So that's probably the first, the first thing you know, is, you know, just setting the stage for being open to seeing the good and. That can open you up to other things. I think the other thing too is to make sure that you're taking a [00:54:00] little bit of time out, out of this world of trying to solve everything. You're not going to innovate everything in your business overnight. You're not going to fix everything in one day. So what does it hurt to spend, you know, 30 minutes an hour, whatever it's going to be once a day to just be. Yeah. And to be mindful and present in the moment. I'm not saying you gotta meditate. Cause you know, if you're, we may have lost you a long time ago when I said shock balancing music, I mean, I get it the first minute of the snow, they turned off, maybe empathy off, you know? Um, but I would say that the more you can learn about yourself and the more you can realize why that maybe feels uncomfortable. The better off you're going to be as a leader is like, sit with them, that discomfort a little bit, uh, sit with the [00:55:00] idea that, uh, failure isn't always bad failure sometimes is a good time to pivot into something that will actually be. And Foucault exercises. So you can't just be like, Oh, done. Did it check? You know, these are things and I have to like touch base on and think about, you know, and, and integrate into our lives as much as we can so that we can be better leaders and kind of show up for other people. I think oftentimes, you know what I'm saying? This, uh, Just as a human walking, the earth as well sometimes so that we can get all caught up in what other people are doing. And it's really like a sense of, of, of not being aligned somewhere within ourselves. And so when that static starts to happen and you're starting to see stuff and have these unusual reactions, uh, that's a good time to step back. That's a good, good [00:56:00] context clue that it might be time to kind of. You know, take a chill pill for a while and, you know, and, and, and understand what's going on with yourself. Uh, because really leaders are always. You know, reflecting out, you know, we're projecting a lot, what's going on inside and then reflecting back what our employees are giving to us. So it's, it's kind of both. So you don't want that, like, boom, if like it's projecting something crummy and then it comes back on your face like that, that doesn't feel very good. So it's kind of a, a way to kind of get, get some more joy into your business and into your life is to really. Focus on the joy, even just for little moments throughout the day. Yeah. I'd love that real quick. What's something you would tell the leader who is excited about this conversation. They're already doing some of this work. Um, what's something you would leave with them to maybe propel them [00:57:00] forward a little bit more even. Yeah. I mean, I think it's so great that you're on this journey. You've been. You know, exploring things that you're seeing this as a world of possibilities. And I think that the more that you can continue to do that and to continue to reflect on everything that's good, the more you can reflect, reflect on and show gratitude from the things that are good. I think it will just continue to propel you forward. And I think that. You're on the precipice of something really innovative if you've already been doing this work. So don't give up. If you're not seeing results immediately, it's more about, you know, just keep, keep on, keeping on and, you know, be open to the prosperity and to the opportunities that come. Um, and then sometimes we tend to, to not see that, you know, as much as we can focus on good stuff, sometimes we're not seeing the [00:58:00] opportunities that are out there. So I would also encourage you to look closer at all of the relationships and the people that you have in your life and see if there's maybe, maybe more to it than that. Yeah. I like to call what you're referring to patient diligence. Diligence. Yeah. Yeah. Diligence every day, patients and align that you referred to alignment earlier. And that's exactly what you're talking about there at the end. So this is great. Jen, I've loved this conversation. Um, that amazing lots of really great stuff in there that you've shared, uh, okay. To finish off the show, something I love to do five questions, kind of a speed rapid around one word answers. Only one word answers only. Okay. Are you ready? Uh, regarding books, do you prefer digital or paper? Paper, coffee, or tea? Coffee. What's one guilty pleasure that you have. [00:59:00] Uh, yeah, I. I like TV. TV. Yeah. Yeah. Um, one thing that you can't live without, I mean, my husband. Yeah. Awesome. And what's your favorite season of the year? You're in Portland, Oregon. You have a few options. It's not raining anyone in the Pacific Northwest. It's like, just give me sun, please give me some, uh, Jen again, this has been amazing. Thank you for coming on the Mitch gray show. You've given the, um, the listeners, the audience, some great, um, Inspiration and some great information as well. So, uh, brothers and sisters, thank you for listening to the Mitch grace show. Thank you for [01:00:00] joining us today in our conversation with Jen, all of her, um, all of her social media platform, uh, uh, connections and our website will be in the show notes. So make sure you go check. Check those out, um, on either our website, Mitch gray, media.com or our, um, podcasts. So make sure you connect with her and make sure you subscribe to the Mitch grace show anywhere you listen to podcasts and subscribe to our YouTube channel. All of our episodes are also via video on our YouTube channel. So multiple ways to check us out. Um, Jen, would you like to tell the people, are you totally rebranding your podcast while I'm thinking about it? Or can they go subscribe still? Oh, yeah, you can totally subscribe. And it's the women conquer business podcast. Okay, perfect. So go check that out. Women conquer business podcast. I know you're going to be kicking off a new season soon and, uh, maybe we'll do, even though I'm not a woman conquering business, we could still do a show SWAT. Yeah. Not women conquer business. I love it. [01:01:00] I raised two girls, so I did something right. So awesome. Jen, thank you again. This has been awesome. And, uh, brothers and sisters, we hope that you are, um, you are at a place in life that you can find some peace. If you're in a leadership role, please consider empathy, compassion, and vulnerability. And if you need any support with that, please reach out to Jen or myself. And we mentioned mental health earlier, and I like to mention it as much as possible as one who deals with mental health and depression, please know. That someone is there for you. You're not alone. We're here to help you. Uh, even if it's not a mental health issue, if you need any support whatsoever, the world is full of amazing people like Jen, who are willing to help you and willing to work with you in any way that we possibly can. So please reach out, please connect with us and we will see you next time. Thanks.