Hi everyone. This is Sam Harrelson. You might remember if you've been a long time listener that a few years ago. Uh, my, my buddy Thomas Whitley and co-founder of this thing, or this show, uh, had to too abruptly pack up his bags and leave. Um, We get a lot of messages, people asking like, Oh my gosh, is everything okay to do when Thomas get into a fight, um, who are we team Thomas for team Sam?

What what's what's the hashtag? No, no, no. Uh, Thomas got into the world of politics and he found a dream job, uh, an incredible opportunity where he was, uh, working on the campaign campaign manager with, with, uh, John Daley, who was running for mayor of Tallahassee, Florida. And they won. So Thomas became chief of staff for mayor Daley and Thomas.

And this was back in 2017, 2018. So now Thomas is chief of staff for the city of Tallahassee and Florida. And if, if, uh, you don't have any backstory, Thomas is a fascinating guy. We've been friends since. Gosh, what was it? 2007. I think when, uh, our, our. Professor. We both went to the same school at the time.

Our professors, uh, emailed me one morning and said, Hey, I know we're going on this trip. And there's this guy named Thomas. I want you to meet you. You're going to be great buddies with him. He's he's a wonderfully interesting guy. You guys are going to hit it off, so don't freak out, but I'm going to, I'm going to try to set you guys up.

And I immediately was completely skeptical skeptical of my beloved professor. When I met Thomas, he had like a writing hat thing on and like a newsboy type hat. And I think a vest maybe and some tight leather pants. No, no, no. Um, but, but he did have a, a unique fashion sense and I was kind of, you know, country bumpkin, so wearing flannel and boots and driving my truck.

So Thomas and I got to know each other on this trip from DC to Charleston. Back to our hometown around Charlotte. And, uh, it was, it was an amazing opportunity to get to know someone for the first time. And since that time we've been inseparable, uh, our, our, our wives or partners still, um, are, are jealous of our relationship because we, we talk incessantly.

We, we we're constantly texting each other. We send flowers once a week and, uh, chocolates that every Valentine. And this was actually the first, uh, holiday season where we haven't hung out with, with Thomas and his wife. And it's been really sad. So we decided to make public what is normally a private conversation, which is how this whole show started.

Thomas and I were, would, would get on the, on the sky back in the day and do it, do it. Quick call, you know, once or twice a week, just to kinda check in. And, uh, we decided we should record these and make a podcast out of it. So that's how thinking out of him started. Uh, so this is kind of a throwback and that was, that was in 2009.

So that's 11 years ago. We started podcasting together. So Thomas, when I get into it, uh, we talk about city politics. We talk about how the city of Tallahassee is helping small businesses. Uh, what they're doing marketing wise to let small businesses and big and big businesses and, and nonprofits know about what they're doing, um, relief wise or COVID, but also just planning for the future and seeing what 2021 is going to bring.

Uh, Thomas is, is an eternal optimist. Uh, despite how he may come across and, um, not, not on this show on this show, it's pretty optimistic, but in general it can be a little graphy. Um, just kidding. So it was a lot of fun to be able to do the show with Thomas and, uh, I hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

And I'll, I'll wrap up afterwards with a few quick thoughts, but heading into this, just keep in mind. Um, We, we get into some nitty-gritty stuff about business loans and, and thinking about how to be resilient in a time of crisis. I think that applies not only to marketing and business, which is what we talked about here, but also to everything we do.

So resiliency being able to think and plan ahead,

all that to say, here's Thomas Whitley, chief of staff. Near Tallahassee office.

All right, well, hello, Thomas, how are you? I'm doing well, Sam, it's going to be back in the saddle again, been a few days since we've, uh, recorded one of these. Ha. I was trying to think about the last time we were, we recorded a show. When did you take the new position or start with, it would have been 2018.

Yeah, but the campaign started in one 17. No, it started early 18. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, it had to be 2018 then. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny cause we, you know, that the show had gotten like. It was growing in numbers again, like we were getting more and more each year. And, uh, we had had this great trajectory and all of a sudden it was like, well, you know, sorry, folks.

I had so many messages that people like did y'all get into a fight like that. Did Thomas, you know what happened? Like why did we should have really leaned into that? Right. I know, I know it should've been like, uh, you know, when Rick flair and Hulk Hogan split up or whatever, right? Yeah. And then, you know, we could, we could do a reunion show on like E news or something.

I'll call a TMZ and let them know where we're doing a show again. So it's good to have you, Thomas Whitley, Tallahassee mayor's office, chief of staff. What do you do? Like, I mean, explain to folks what this, this iteration of, of your journeys. Like, that's a, that's a good question. Um, there's not an easy way to explain it.

You know, the thing that I, I, you know, I try to say a lot is part of what I like about the job is that every day is different and. You know, it's hard to kind of quantify that for people to really understand, um, more, some days it's, you know, talking on the phone or answering emails with constituent issues about trash getting picked up and other days it is, um, you know, trying to land, uh, you know, um, multimillion dollar.

Um, economic development deal, or, you know, we're talking with hospitals about, uh COVID-19 and we're setting up drive through testing facilities. We were one of the first cities in the, in the state of Florida to, uh, set up a drive through testing facility. And we'd largely did that ourselves, the city in partnership with some of our local hospitals.

Uh, so it, it is kind of crazy do everything and, and, you know, I've had the benefit of. I'm working at a city that, um, you know, w we're a mid-size city. Uh, but we do a lot, we own all of our utilities, which yeah. So that was really interesting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's crazy. And we'll talk about that a little bit more too, but we own all of our utilities.

We own the airport. So, um, we have, uh, I think. 89 90 parks inside the city limits. Now we've got to push our 200th anniversary is in 20, 24 and two we're pushing to get to a hundred parks inside the city limits by 2024. So the breadth of what we do and what I get to do every day, um, is crazy. Right? So I have to learn about, you know, um, power generation, because we have a tool to solar farms.

Uh, we produce, and I didn't learn this until. Um, you know, maybe last year we produced now, when we opened the second solar farm, the second most solar energy per capita of any city, uh, in the country, second only to Honolulu. And they're literally out in the middle of the ocean. Right. So they don't have much of a choice.

Um, and so the breadth is, uh, is. You're very broad, you know, w obviously in the mayor's office, I liaise a lot with, uh, other, you know, other government entities with our state and our federal partners. So we get to do that a lot, um, you know, talk with local businesses. Um, and you've ever tried to, we're doing a lot to recruit businesses to Tallahassee.

Um, so it is just basically, if you can think of it, I probably am doing it. And that includes, you know, making coffee. Right. So, um, it just, it, it runs the gamut. So when you, when you came in as chief of staff with mayor Daley, uh, was there, I know you said, of course there's a learning curve. I mean, your background, you're a PhD in religious studies, you've studied seminary and, and have, and, and you came from kind of a similar background as I did, and now you're running or, you know, helping manage, facilitate these, these, uh, incredible civic operations, but was there, um, Big gaps.

And in terms of like what you. Perceived as something that was needed when you came into the mayor's office in terms of messaging to get out, like, I know you've been working on like social media stuff and newsletters, and even this type of thing with podcasts and outreach, w was, were those things in place or was that something that you all had to kind of hop in and create.

So we we've, we'd largely have created that, um, you know, for our current office, um, you know, since we've been in, uh, our city has, you know, we've, we have a, you know, full communications department at the city, we have a TV station and, um, that we run and, and all that. So, so we have like real communications professionals, um, and our communications director, um, is one of the best in the business, hands down.

Um, and so she, and I worked hand in hand on the stuff that the city is doing and the stuff that we're doing in our office, but the stuff for our office, we had to kind of build from scratch to, to a certain degree. And it is, I mean, because, um, you know, there's a, there's a learning curve there and finding the balance between, um, You know, what, what the public is interested in, what they want to know, what we think they need to know, and the ways to get messages across that will actually resonate and penetrate.

Right. And so, um, fortunately, or unfortunately we've been able to hone those skills through, uh, emergency situations. Um, you know, we, uh, we were lucky this year were remissed, but, and the, uh, the four years before that we'd been hit three by three different hurricanes. Right. So, um, So that kind of tests you, right?

That's when you can really learn a lot quickly as an emergency situations like that. And then we applied a lot of that to you. What we've dealt with over the past, uh, now nine months or so nine or 10 months with the COVID-19 pandemic, um, is just really trying to find the balance of. You know, how do you get the message out in a way that, uh, that resonates in a course?

I mean, we, we can't get away from, you know, there's a political aspect too, of what we do, uh, but a way that really kind of reaches all of our constituents, um, because you know, one interesting note is that at least here locally, and this is true for a lot of local, um, Yeah, positions around the country. Uh, even though the electeds are maybe registered with one party or another, they run a non-partisan here locally.

Uh, which means when, you know, when you go to vote for mayor, nobody has a D or an R or an NPA, no party affiliation here in Florida by their name. It's just their names, right. Because, you know, in theory there's no Republican or democratic way to pick up the trash, right. Or to keep the lights running. Um, so.

Right. That's all right. So, um, so you know, that I think plays into, um, how we have to craft messages for the entire community. Have you found, uh, that outreach from the mayor's office has. Been received positively, but like business or small business community. Yeah, I absolutely, I mean, I think that we've got a good relationship with our, um, business community here.

Um, and you know, we know that like in every community that's kind of the backbone, right? It's it's the mom and pop stores. It's still, it's the larger companies, right. Just the companies that, you know, got their start and, you know, uh, entrepreneurial incubator here. Right. Um, And so I think that that we've good, those good relationships, but the way that we talk to those entities and provide information that they find valuable, right.

That they want to pass along to their business partners and, and, you know, from time to time their customers as well. Um, you know, we got to hit that. Right. And, and, you know, that's, um, that's a trial and error type thing. Right. So we talk to them and get feedback regularly. Uh, I mean, Earlier this week, the mayor actually yesterday, the mayor was on with, uh, our, uh, one of our, we have three local chambers here, one of our chambers here, you know, talking with their board of directors, um, just kind of giving an update and getting some feedback.

Right. And we do that pretty regularly so that we can, um, make sure that we stay tuned into what the needs and the desires are of our small business community. So what about the, the challenges with COVID and stuff? Um, I mean, In a Florida is notorious for being, you know, kind of the butt of many jokes, even for those of us in South Carolina, believe it or not.

And I know, right. And as somebody who was born in North Carolina, um, let's say in a lot, right. There's a distinct difference between North and South Carolina. Totally. Yes. Very, very different cultures. But, um, So it'd be the capital city of Florida. And to have, you know, the state house, there is Supreme court, they're the legislature there, the Florida chamber of commerce, all those things.

But then for you all in the mayor's office to be working directly with those small businesses in town who are affected by those decisions being made for the whole state, you know, just down the block, what sort of challenges did y'all. I have to, or did you all, I'm showing my South Carolina roots here with me all.

What sort of, uh, challenges and opportunities, uh, the COVID kind of present or, I mean, I know here in Columbia, I just read an article this morning in our state paper that was, uh, you know, that here are 20 businesses. Uh, iconic businesses that closed in Columbia, uh, in 2020. And it was just heartbreaking to read that list because I've been to all 20 of those places, even the yoga studio, um, that had been around since 1989 or whatever.

Um, and you know, they were just concrete sort of, uh, cornerstone businesses of, of these communities. And they're gone. And, you know, bars and restaurants, especially, and, and, you know, small businesses that we all relied on a little printing shop that we all love. That's now gone. And have you all seen the same thing in Tallahassee and having to deal with a state legislature?

Because we're kind of the same in Columbia. We have the state government here in town that we interface with, and there's a lot of. You know, push and pull with our city government, trying to deal with the state and then, you know, our citizens having to deal with the government did y'all see something like that.

And how did y'all overcome that? Yeah, I mean, I'll say, um, I mean, look, we, we have a good relationship with, um, with the state. I mean, it's always going to be, you know, it has the potential to be adversarial, right. And, and particularly if you have. You know, um, the capital city controlled by one party and a state, you know, uh, controlled by the opposite party, which, you know, w we have here and have had for a long time in Florida is the potential be adversarial, but it doesn't have to be.

And we work really hard to build good relationships with our partners at the state. Um, and I think we've done a good job of that with the governor and the cabinet. Um, and you know, We have been afforded the ability throughout this COVID 19 pandemic and a lot of ways to, um, kind of decide what's best for our community and the governor's made some decisions here and there that, um, maybe took some of that control away or maybe, you know, made some decisions that maybe we wouldn't have made, but.

But that's also life. Right. You just deal with the circumstances that, that you find yourself in and, and really what we did. I mean, we were, um, I mean, I'm gonna sound like a complete Homer, right. But, uh, we, we were a leader, but yeah, from the state and across the country and some of the things that we did, so.

We own our own utilities and on day one, um, I mean the back in February, uh, the mayor called, um, um, what, what is now known publicly, but we call it a private meeting of, um, leaders in the community, different local governments, um, you know, different folks, um, And talked to, you know, uh, medical professionals and folks like that, but talk about, okay, Hey, we see this coming.

How are we going to prepare as a community? Um, uh, not much later, the mayor, um, had a press conference and he walked out. And one thing he said is, uh, Hey, we're suspending utility disconnects for non-payment for 60 days. This is, and this has been, um, this might've been, you know, first, second week of March, we've not, um, Disconnected anybody's, uh, utilities for non-payment now and we're December 16th.

Right? Um, so we, we still have not, even though almost every single other utility provider in the, in the state has resumed disconnects and this, by the way, we're doing with over 12,000 delinquent accounts and, you know, $8 million, um, that, that we haven't received that, that frankly, we need to keep the utilities running, right.

Because this is, you know, we know this is important for us. Not just individuals, but also small businesses. Right. And we're going to figure that, you know, we're going to figure this out of how, you know, somehow we need to be made whole, and we get to figure that out. And I think that a global pandemic, like this requires and necessitates a robust federal response.

And I don't think anybody would argue that the response we've seen federally has been rather anemic to this point. Um, but so we did that. We took that step on today. One. Uh, we followed that up with, um, a rebate to all of our electric utility customers. Um, the next month, uh, totally, you know, over $6 million across the board.

Um, and then we also did it in March. The mayor called for we, we have an interesting, um, you know, way that some of the government structure here and we have an inner government or agency, which is, uh, all the members of the city commission, which includes the mayor and all the members of the County commission, because.

We have one city in one County, which is a little unique too. Um, and. They sent out this inner governmental agency. And so the mayor called for a special meeting of that group group, um, to talk specifically about COVID relief. And so, um, we in March, uh, put together a million dollar relief fund for small businesses.

Uh, we followed that up the next month with another million dollar relief fund for, uh, nonprofits. Um, and, and so we tried to kind of take any action that we could, right. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that because we had a similar thing and I know many of my colleagues in various cities, because Columbia is almost the same size as Tallahassee.

I think we're roughly in the same. Yeah. We've got about 200,000 residents in sub city limits. We're about there. Yeah, but it's about 350,000, um, metropolitan. Yeah. And, um, we had a city. Um, really fun, sort of like that for small businesses and we're all excited and I'm on, you know, a couple of slacks and email lists of local business people and business leaders and, um, you know, a lot, a lot of small business folks like me who.

You know, Mike go to a chamber of commerce meeting every once in a while, but we're not like totally in that crowd. And, you know, we're, we're creators and, and, you know, we, we like to be a little independent and we were all excited about that. And I remember reading about it after clicking on the link on the Slack and then.

You know, we all go to apply and there was, there were so many stipulations, you know, and it's like, you had to have a business license in the city for two years, which fine. But a lot of people don't have that. You had to have this, you had to have this, you had to show that, you know, you have this many people employed in any way.

It was, it was a. A very laborious thing. Like it was easier to apply for the PPP funds and it was to apply for the city. So I'll tell you one of the things that we did and, you know, mainly like we work in government, so we've got to have some stipulations on things, but, but we are a believer and, um, it is, it is in times of emergency times of crisis, like this, that it's better to get the money out, to help people who need it than to worry about.

Are we gonna, you know, Loose one penny here or one penny there. I mean, not only to humanitarian thing about like, not taking breaks, you know, or cutting people's electricity off, but like, they're gonna be able to reinvest, you know, theoretically reinvest that money and buying groceries or buying, you know, needed supplies or diapers or formula.

So that's gonna help the economy. So with our small business loan, I th I think it was for businesses with up to 50 employees. Right. So, Hey, we're, we're targeting it, right. We cause we didn't have all the money in the world. Right. So we were able to find a million dollars to cobble together for this w which I think is a lot for a community, our size.

Um, but one of the things that we did, um, and some people didn't like this, right. Granted, but I still think it was a really smart decision that we made. Um, with our, our first grant program or created for small businesses, what we called the Cedar grant, the COVID-19 emergency disaster relief grant, um, is that we tied it to applying for you didn't have to receive or accept if you, even if you received it, but applying for state or federal money.

Right. So a state emergency bridge loan, or the federal PPP loan, because most people that were applying for our money, um, We're also applying for those anyway, but we saw this as an opportunity to, um, essentially leverage the million dollar investment that we could make as a local government, um, and, and bring down more money.

And so I think in our analysis, our kind of after action report, uh, we we've. Saw that million dollars get leveraged into like $30 million funding get brought down to RQ. Wow. That's insane. I mean, not predictable, but it's, it's great to hear it, but I think, you know, things like that, we've got really just fantastic professionals are really smart people that, you know, they're helping put these things together.

And of course, you know, every now and then I, I get to have an idea, but, um, but we have a lot of great people, but for the city and the County are that are working, um, You know, coming up with these ideas and, and it's things like that, that we, that we do that, Hey, we had a couple of business folks say, you know, they were, they were hot because they just wanted to apply for our, you know, whatever amount they could get from us and not have to apply for anything else.

And we're like, look, all you have to do is fill out the application. You don't even have to accept the money, even though the PPP loan is like, we all knew it was going to be forgivable. Right. So, um, So not everybody liked it, but it was a way to, um, you know, leverage the, the little bit of kind of spending power that we had.

Uh, and I think that some things like that have really helped the community doesn't mean we're not hurting, uh, or more definitely hurting, but our unemployment rate is, um, we'll still below the state and the national average. And that's one of the things that, that we experienced as a capital city in Columbia, similarly wrecked capital city, university, city as well.

Is that. And the highs you don't, we don't get as high as some other places do in the booms. Right. But we don't get as low in the bus either. Right. And, and, and I think that, you know, so we have some foundation there with state, government, and university and things like that, but also there's some other good local decision-making that I think, um, helps.

Um, you know, kind of putting a safety net out there for a small businesses as well. Yeah. And I think a lot of that also has to do with the resiliency of, of the type of businesses that make up, you know, the job creators in town here, or, you know, Tallahassee. No, it does. I mean, it was interesting. Um, Yeah. I mean, like I'm not gonna criticize the way anybody runs their business.

Right. But, but hearing stories of, you know, a business that has been in business for 20 or 30 years, um, you know, three weeks into the COVID 19 crisis that are like, Oh, we're got to close our doors. We don't know what to do. Yeah. Um, and you know, there are certain businesses where the margins restaurants, the margins are so thin that's gonna, that's gonna happen.

Right. I mean, that's almost impossible to not happen in those situations, but other businesses where you would expect, Hey, you've been in business for 20 or 30 years, kind of. Like, what are you, what are you doing? Right. You've, you've got to prepare for this. And so there's gotta be a balance, right? The resiliency of the businesses themselves.

And that's what we've seen. A lot of that. I know you all have seen that in Columbia businesses, helping other people, nonprofits stepping up to help. Um, and, and I think that's what we've seen across the country. And so it's a combination of all those things, right? Immunity that what little bit the government can do, it's what the, you know, and the community can do as well.

Yeah, and then I won't keep you for too much longer. I know you're a busy guy with places to go, but, um, I know just with my business, we, we lost two clients that had to shut down and the boat shut down very early, like late March, early, early may. And I thought really March late, April, somewhere in there.

And I was like, Oh gosh, you know, this is not trending well. And both of those were more established businesses and, and I. Met with them and gave them some, what I thought was great, you know, ideas of, okay, here's some ways we can pivot in the short term. We don't know how long this is going to last, but you know, here's some ideas about getting things online and getting things, you know, social or, or, you know, utilizing newsletters.

Like you've got this incredible customer base. You've got these very loyal people in town. You've got people all across the region. You know, there are ways to do this. And when was the nonprofit and when it was a for-profit business, And they both made the same mistake of saying, we don't know how to do this.

I can't train my staff. We're just gonna, we're just gonna close our doors. And the nonprofit was heartbreaking because it was a very important service here. Yeah. And the same with the for-profit business and, and they'd done some really cool stuff and, and, uh, big name of the community. And we were like, come on, like, all you have to do is do this and this and this.

We can walk you through this. Like, don't worry about it. You know, charging or anything, let's look at what the city's doing. And I did that with a number of clients who kind of got freaked out early and they were able to make that pivot. And I've got some great success stories that I'm going to be talking to in the next few weeks.

And, um, they were so nervous at the time. And between, like you said, the city stepping up the PPP loans, um, Some of the stuff that private banks were doing, and it just kind of got us through that. So now we're, we're in December and it's, it's great to hear that cities like Tallahassee are still kind of being proactive because you know, like you said, the federal government response has been all over the place and they're still.

Some work being done out there, but it's, it's really sketchy for small businesses right now. Well, I mean the reality, I mean, I don't know how to, you know, this everybody 20, 20, right. It's been a year. Right. Um, there's not, there's, it's hard to kind of put it into words, but everybody is stressed. Everybody is kind of anxious.

They're on edge. You know, a lot of people are struggling financially. Um, a lot of, a lot of people are struggling personally. They'd been spending more time at home or right. And. It's been a hard year for people. Right. And so oftentimes we look around and we want to blame people and there's plenty of blame to go around.

Right. And, and not that we're, you know, we're certainly not perfect or immune, um, by any means, but, but we continue to take action because we need to. Right. And so, I mean, just last week we established a, what we're calling a landlord risk mitigation fund because we're looking at the, the looming eviction crisis, uh, potential, uh, eviction crisis when the federal eviction moratorium expires, uh, at the end of the calendar year.

Um, and we know, you know, we know how many evictions are filed and on hold right now, here locally. Um, we, you know, Believe that, that the real number of anticipated evictions as much more than that, because there's been a moratorium. So a lot of people haven't, you know, filed, but, but, you know, we established a fund to, um, you know, try to help those that are most vulnerable to being evicted because we know that, um, it is so much cheaper as a community and, and important for the, for their health.

If, um, They can not become unsheltered because the barriers to getting sheltered again, once you become unsheltered are just enormous, but then also this is fun. Can help those, um, you know, help people from getting evicted, but then also, um, provide a backstop for landlords to, um, To take tenants that may after they've been evicted, be considered high risk, right.

Because we know the barriers there too, if you have not even an actual eviction, but just an eviction filing on your record of the barriers of that creates for you. And so we're still even, you know, it's a little bit, right. And we can't create a, an eviction moratorium here and. That may not even be the right long-term solution because of, you know, the small businesses that are landlords or the mom and pop that are trying to make the mortgage payments.

Right. Cause they have one or two extra, um, you know, rental properties. And even larger organizations that have, you know, hundreds of people that they employ. Right. So, you know, we're trying to find solutions here to that that are helping people that are helping small businesses and it hasn't, and it hasn't stopped and it can't stop.

Um, and so, you know, I think that we are all in agreement. We need a much larger, more robust federal response. Uh, but in the absence of it, we can't just throw our hands up and say, well, you know, Kind of not our, not our responsibility. So I guess we're just not going to do anything. Yeah. Well, and, and that's, you know, like you said, that's also part of the responsibility of having a business is finding ways to adapt and, and, you know, figure out how to get around issues and problems that pop up.

And the chair is coronavirus next year, who knows? Right. There's always going to be something that, that. Presents itself and shakes things up, you know, whether it's personal or business or international, like we're dealing with now, um, you know, life is a series of responding to different events and then making the best of it.

So, yeah, no, I totally agree. All right. So last question. Uh, I don't, I don't know if you noticed, but we have a new flag in the city of Columbia. Have you seen our flag? I have seen the flag. It's a good flag. It's actually a good flag. I like it. Yeah. So there was a big, uh, design contests. I almost went into it.

I, I didn't. Um, but at the agency that one is friends and it's fantastic. They won, uh, and it's a great design that did a great job. So. What is up with the Tallahassee flag? I mean, Stara Hassey, um, I've been reading up on this in preparation for our interview and a love your, your city seal, like th that y'all have on the buttons and on the website and you use for your newsletter and that sort of thing.

It's fantastic. The Florida. Tallahassee seal. It's kind of like a nice live Oak on at which we're known for a live Oaks and it has a classic feel to it, which, which resonates for me. It doesn't resonate for everybody, but I agree. I liked the seal. Yeah. It's, it's, it's an Oak tree with, you know, cool background and it's, it's not bad.

But the flag, my God, like what are y'all doing to, uh, address this very important issue? That's a good question. Um, you know, I don't know. I mean, this flag was done years ago, right before we came in and you know, obviously the star is a, is an Omaha trust being the capital city. And so we have a lot of places where like part of the stars kind of makes a T right for Tallahassee until you have the star and then you have the rest of them.

The word. Right? So that's where we call it.  like a city would have come up with in the late nineties, or it says 2002 here. Yeah. So 2000. Yeah. So that's a city hosting. The Olympics would have come up with in 2002 as they pitched the IOC. Yeah. And so in a lot of places and a lot of, a lot of, uh, renderings, the star actually like works really well.

It looks really good. Right. Um, but, but on the flag, Um, there was a little push a couple of years ago that, Hey, we need a new flag. And I was on board with that. It's it's, um, you know, since died down because there's been other more important things that we've had to deal with. But I think that, I mean, that's definitely something we've been thinking about is going through your process, similar to where Columbia did a, you know, Hey, let's let's look, let's look at, um, Getting the community to give us a new flag designs and talk about it.

And, um, you know, kind of talking about, you know, I'm thinking about this in particular, as we lead up to our bicentennial in 2024 is, you know, looking back on, you know, who we've been for 200 years though, you know, we know that we had, um, uh, folks living in Tallahassee for thousands of years before that.

But, um, You know, we were kind of, you know, we date our founding to a proclamation by then territorial governor William Deval, and 1824, naming Tallahassee, the capital of the territory of Florida. Um, But then also, like, who do we, who do we want to be going forward for the next year? A hundred years. Right.

So, um, I would love to see that become part of, kind of, as we lead up to the bicentennial. So we'll see if I can, if I can be successful in making that happen. But I think, I think a flag is an important kind of, you know, we don't think about it a lot with, with the, you know, at the city or even sometimes the state.

Um, but I think it, it, when done, well, it can really kind of encompass the. Um, you know, the, kind of the, the culture and the attitude and the people of the city. Yeah. I mean, you see like the New York flag or the Chicago flag and, you know, you kind of get, uh, uh, you know, little, little heartstrings, but I mean, I've seen Columbia city flags now hanging out in front of people's homes.

We have a big hope thing that, that, uh, the city put up during early part of. Uh, the coronavirus breakout back in, I think, February using the new flag. And it's really cool. And, and I just see it on bumpers, you know, uh, back windows and bumpers all the time around town. So people are in it, I've seen it on hats, you know, and I'm like, Oh, the hat, how do you get the hat?

Yeah. So I've been trying to find one online and, and, uh, the place that had them were sold out. But, uh, all that to say, you know, we, we just introduced that this year and it's been, uh, it's been a pretty cool thing, despite everything else going on. Um, Well, hopefully we can, uh, follow your lead in a couple of years here in Philly.

Yeah. There it again. Well, you know who to call if you need a ride. That's right. I was like, what? There's a, there's a pitch coming at the end of this. Right? I would donate my efforts. I would be disappointed if there's not a pitch thing to this. The star ship. I love it. All right. Well, Thomas, it has been fantastic talking to you again.

You too, you too. And I think your listeners should know how impressive of a feat it is that our reunion show lasted less than three hours. I know. Well, this is just, you know, this is the part we're putting on the podcast. There's a whole before and after that, that people it's like the Obama memoir, right?

Where you pick it up and you're like, Oh, 700 pages. Oh, this is only volume one. Oh, you want a six? Yeah. And they have to pay for the other part. That's the pitch. So if you send me money, then you get to hear the whole conversation with Thomas that's right. Right. So, Thomas. Yeah. Thank y'all keep up the good work and thank you for all y'all are doing down there.

It's just always, I follow Thomas's work, um, on social media, but also from the, the mayor's office in Tallahassee. I have links down in the show notes. You can follow what they're doing is really interesting stuff going on. So if you're a small business interested in how cities are. Helping small businesses right now.

That's a very hot topic and I'll definitely follow up with one near daily Thomas, the mayor's office we're working on. It's good stuff. So thank you, Thomas. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Sam.