56 - Tabitha Lord Monica: Well, welcome to the revelation project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed. Gets Healed Monica: Hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another edition of the revelation. Check podcast today. I'm with guest Tabitha. Lord Tabitha is a good friend of mine and she's somebody that deeply inspires me. She is a writer and author. She's written a series called horizon and. The most amazing thing about Tabitha is that she kind of started her writing career at age 40 and has since then gone on to discover a number of other genres that interest her. She has received several independent book awards, including the writer's digest grand prize in 2016. In addition to writing novels and short fiction, she is a partner and senior writer for book club babble, and she's a managing editor for ink. It writer's blog. Recently she's tried her hand writing romantic suspense under the pen name, Maggie Claire. She lives in Rhode Island with her husband, for kids and lovable for a baby's changing careers at 40 Tabitha became more vulnerable in her storytelling and started sharing about raising kids, climbing mountains, and loves to do things that are hard but worthwhile. Hey, Tabitha. Tabitha: Hey, Monica, how are Monica: you? I'm so good. It's so great to have you Tabitha: spun to be here, even virtually, Monica: even virtually. And you know, for those of you that are in new England, we're actually staring Tabitha and I are both in new England. We're staring at a blanket of snow. It just got completely dumped on. And so I'm glad actually that internet still works. Tabitha: I know I was worried about that, but it's beautiful out there. It's so peaceful and lovely. And yeah. Uh, in March when we've had a hundred inches or so we'll be flying around on our shovels, like their broomstick Monica: sure is. And it's so funny, Todd, because I thought the same thing I thought, Oh, it's so beautiful. And it's the week before Christmas. So I said to us Dayton yesterday, Oh, we might have a white Christmas and he's like, just wait a minute, Monica. We're in new England. It might be Tabitha: gone, you know, by noon. So funny. Monica: So, so Tom, but, uh, you know, I'd love to start out by just, you know, welcoming you and also digging right in because of course, how you and I met is such a funny story. Well, you were an administrator at the Meadowbrook Waldorf school in Rhode Island and Manan had just been born. My daughter. And are you, are you laughing Tabitha: to remember this? Monica: I was so preoccupied with Waldorf education and obsessed with getting my children, you know, like into that school that when men and was a couple of weeks old. Called and I to get her on the waiting list. And I just remember Tabitha, you say, you asking me. Okay. And how old is she? And I was, I was like she's two weeks.And you're you were so gracious. You were like, um, okay. So I'm just gonna encourage you to call back in a few years. Tabitha: Right. I totally remember that. And you know, you, weren't the only one, but I do remember that very distinctly and, and just sort of saying it's okay, we're not in New York city. You know, the kids will change a lot between two weeks at three years old when she's going to come to school and give me a call then, and we'll work it through and don't worry, we know there'll be a place for you here. I promise. Monica: I know. And you know, I'm conscious of the fact that I sound like such a privileged person doing something like that, but the truth of the matter. Is that it was because of my own childhood experience. And finally settling after like nine schools in a place like Waldorf education, where I went for the seventh and eighth grade where I, I really finally found myself and found a place that accepted me for who I was, and that's why I was so just really wanting to have that experience for my kids.And, uh, so it's just so funny to think. Back. And of course now our kids are, all of our kids are through that educational experience. And of course, tab, you have four that window. Tabitha: Yes. For four and two are on the West coast. Currently one's in the Navy. The others, uh, graduated from college already and is living in LA. He's a film, uh, film production. Person, but obviously Hollywood is closed down right now. So he's mostly just unemployed. Um, and then number three is a senior in high school and he just was accepted early decision to his first choice school out on the West coast. So congrats. I know. And then my daughter is a junior this year, so she's still with us for a little bit longer living in the home. Yeah, the Waldorf school for me was an accidental find. Um, I was looking for something for my oldest son, who I knew was just a really active little boy. And I didn't feel like education the way I understood it was really good for active little boys. And it was becoming more and more or academic younger and younger. And I thought this instinctively didn't feel right about that to me. And so I went looking and I, I girl, One of mine said, Oh, you might want to try this little school. And I remember going peeking in the windows and, you know, over the summer when they were setting up and thinking, Hmm. And my son too was only three or four when I looked into it, then, you know, it wasn't time yet for him to go to school. And then I actually got into medical school and I'm was commuting to Boston and I thought, Oh, there's no way we can commute. There is no way we can afford the tuition for this Waldorf school. And so we sent him to the public school for kindergarten and it is, I don't have a lot of regrets, but that is one of them of mine is he didn't get to experience the early childhood, like the rest of my children did. And, but what did happen was it confirmed my husband and my, my, you know, both of us it confirmed, but this was, we were writing in our instinct and he needed to go to this special, interesting, wonderful developmentally appropriate school that just really honored childhood. And so we put him in school there. My journey, you know, I ended up quitting medical school after I had my second child and I had an act accidental. I call it an accidental career in Waldorf education I just had. Right. I just basically just was so enamored with the education. My children were getting, I started to volunteer there. I wanted to do something that. You know, my brain was really going from medical school to staying home with the kids just didn't really work for me either. And so this was a way that I could participate in something and be part of a community and learn as a mom. Cause I was really young mom learn as a mom and. And grow as a professional. And so it was an accidental career and Waldorf education that lasted about 15 years and I've loved it. I loved every minute of it. And it enabled me to again, be the mom that I wanted to be. Hands-on a part of everything that they were doing, you know, deeply engaged in their lives. And at the same time have a really. Fruitful career that I could stand behind and believe in. So I ended up being the admissions director at the Waldorf school for, I don't know, 12 or 14 years. And then I taught Latin in the middle school for 10 of those years. So yeah, accidental career Monica: accidental career. And the other thing that I remember really loving about you is your transparency. And you had shared with me really early on that becoming an early parent was, was unexpected for you. Tabitha: Oh, it sure was. I, my husband and I may have known each other seven months before I got pregnant my senior year of college, uh, before my senior year, it was actually my, the summer between junior and senior year.And I remember going back to school and thinking my life is just about to, it's one of those crossroads where you know, that. You're about to take a right-hand turn or a left-hand turn and there's no going back, you know? And so Ray and I didn't get married right away. We sort of said to one another, okay. We're, we're committed to being parents. Like both of us said, this is what we want. And you know, we want to bring this child into the world and it feels like the right thing to do, but we weren't sure we wanted to be married and go down that path together. So we did wait. Um, he did actually ask me to marry him when I was very pregnant and it turned out to be a surprise because you think nothing else could be a surprise at that point in our lives. But he did surprise me with the ring. And I said, yes. And you know, and the thinking behind both of us were, well, you know, we've come this far. We're good together. We've already got a ready, made family. Let's let's. Let's give it a shot. And so we got married when our son was six months old and just sort of put our noses down and said that we can, we can figure this out. I call it the too stupid to know any better plan, you know? Um, and, but essentially we grew up together and honestly, I already knew he was a quality human being. Like there wasn't better out there. You know what I mean? It just so happened to be, the timing was a little off for me. I wasn't really ready to say you're it when I was 20, you know? So, so that took a little bit. Shenanigans on my part to kind of come to peace with that. But we did, you know, he came to peace with it long before I did AF you know, so right. Monica: And I think, I think some people know at an early age, but I love, you know, that you, you didn't and you know, guys kind of waited and then, you know, decided again, like we've come this far. Let's let's see, let's see how we can make this work. Tabitha: Yeah, and we were really good parents. And, and this is a, you know, an interesting thing as a, as a woman, you know, I just wasn't, I wasn't ready to settle down. I loved being a mother. I did not love being a wife in the beginning. And he, he was a great husband. He wasn't, you know, who's a great guy. He still is a great guy, but he was a great guy. Even back then at 23. And. And I remember being the one that was constantly running away from him, you know, I would work night shifts. I would pick up, I would do all these other things that really indicated I hadn't made the commitment, even though we said yes and I do by then. And we were legally married and I, and he said to me, and it was a really powerful thing cause he's a super loyal guy and he, and I know he adored me. He always adored me and he said, look, it. He's like, if you're not into this, he said, I deserve somebody who wants me. And if you don't there's the door, I will never abandon the two of you.You will always be my family. My son will be, my son will co-parent, but he said, but I want the real deal. And if you can't give it to me, there's the door. And it was such a shocking moment for me as a, you know, as somebody who always had the guy chasing you, you know, he was always the one that was there to say, no, it's not good enough. And so I, my college roommate at the time, well, My college roommate from when I was in college, it was still one of my closest friends and she was very Catholic. Um, and I'm not. And, you know, but we had some great conversations all through the course of our college years and the, you know, the time afterwards. And I remember scooping the baby up and go into her place for a long weekend. After he had said this to me, and she said to me, look tab. She said, you know, you can keep. You know, jumping around and trying to find the fresh and new and something exciting and the shiny new object she said, but at some point you're going to have to decide it's worth it to settle in and get to the other side of that and really make the commitment. And she said, if you don't do it with him, there's no judgment here for me because you know, I can't, I'm not in your head. I don't know if you really, maybe you don't really love him enough or he's not the right guy, but at some point it. You're going to have to decide in inwardly that you're, you want a life partner, if you want a life partner and make the commitment. And so I came back home saying, I'm going to make this commitment. I don't feel it yet. I don't feel it, but I want, I want to see what's on the other side of that. I want to see what comes with building a life together and trusting another human being and, you know, and building a family and a career and a home and, and ha having each other's back truly. And so I went into it with that and over the years it became real. You know? Monica: Yeah. Like I would love to hear more about that, but before, before we do, I want to say that I love, I love that piece about, you know, him saying to you, like, I deserve somebody who really wants to be here. That, that, that actually points to such an integrity. Not only, you know, him being. Saying to you guys, you know, like I'm always going to be here, but there's, there's a way he showed up for himself in that, that probably, you know, really made you stop and think, well, I'm hearing that it, it very much did make you really go deeper into kind of seeing the fabric of who he was and, and the truth to that statement. Tabitha: Absolutely. And he's just, he's a really strong. Person and you, uh, you know, and really charismatic and really loyal. And so sometimes it's that loyalty piece that you see first, you know, like I will never give up on your own effort, but. He had a breaking point and I think I needed to see it. It, it gave me more respect for him, you know, when he showed it to me and said, there's a, you know, I want the real thing. And if that's not going to be, this will fall. I'll find it somewhere else. I will never, you know, like I'll never abandon my child. I will always love you because you're the mother of my son, but I want a partner in life. And if you don't want to be that, please let me go. You know, Monica: I'm hearing a real self loyalty because I think again, like we can tend to be loyal to the detriment of our own selves and, you know, it's so nice to see that boundary and that is such a kind of, you know, upright it kind of a divine masculine trait for him to kind of exhibit that boundary and really be that that person. You know, that that's willing to, of course, always show up for you and his child, but to be able to do that simultaneously for himself too, to me, that's what makes a relationship really work? Tabitha: Absolutely. Because it's really the choice. We both know that we're choosing, we're choosing this relationship, you know? Um, and that it's not I'm here because you had a baby, you know, I'm here because you. Got me pregnant. No, we're here because we chose to be. And that there's real power in that. Monica: Yeah, there really is. Tabitha: And we choose it every day. You know, we choose every day to keep showing up for each other. Monica: I love that tab. I'd love that because that's, that's how Austin and I are. You know, we w I, I say all the time that we're eternally engaged, we haven't actually gotten married, but I feel like, you know, that. In some ways for us, right? It's it's I think everybody gets to make the choice that's right. For their family and their relationship. And for us, it really works. And it's this way. I think that I feel like we're constantly choosing to be here and. Be in this relationship and, you know, continually create it that there's no kind of like, I mean, with any relationship, there's always kind of peaks and valleys, but there's never any point where we are allowing things to get, you know, stagnant or completely off the rails. And of course we've had our moments like any couple, but of course, I'm so curious tab about when you did start. Trusting and leaning in and loving him in the way that you had. I hoped you could. Tabitha: Okay. So may sound harsh, but it's not really. And he knows this. He and I have had this conversation, so it began to feel very real. Like the partnership was solid. And that I was committed to it and I really wasn't going anywhere. And I was satisfied in my life and in my marriage and my kids, but we also had a really busy life. You know, we had four kids, we were building careers, he was building a business. I was home alone a lot, which was okay by me. I liked running my, you know, kind of to alpha personality. So I got to run the whole, you know, my career plus the home plus the kids' schedules. And I am one of those people that sort of like OCD with. Scheduling and calendars and planning. And I'm really just very disciplined about that stuff. And so when he was off building his empire, I call it and, you know, and together we were really good. We were had a good partnership, but if I were to be truly honest about when I felt the feeling of I, this is my life partner in all the way, you know, deeply, I am deeply committed to this, this man. Um, not just this. Relationship and this marriage, but this man, I would say it was when Kira was about three. And I know that sounds, you know, she's 16 and a half now we've been married 27 years. So you can do the math it's and I'm not saying that our relationship was anything but very solid before that moment. But before that moment, There was a vulnerability that I never allowed out in myself. There was always a piece of myself that I held back. And I'm not, I'm not sure why. I think it's because in the beginning I really examined this a lot. And it's interesting. And he and I have talked about this a lot in the beginning of any relationship that I've ever been in. Of course there's not been that many, because again, I met him when I was 20, but I throw myself in, I am, I am an open book. I love wholeheartedly. I love so powerfully and so engaged. Right. And then at some point, You know, uh, any relationship, you know, the chemistry does dissipate a tiny little bit after six or nine months or a year or whatever, you know, obviously can't stay that heightened sense of heightened state of excitement all the time. But when that starts to dissipate for me a little bit and things become real and I then need to open up my, I guess, my heart in a different way. I always retreated and, um, and I retreated with him and he called me on it. I committed, but there was still this one piece that I really feel like I kept under wraps. And there was that second awakening, you know, when I had to see when I left medical school and. Maybe we can come back to that later. Cause I can talk a little bit about why that was. But when I, when I was working at the school and there was this other point where I felt like life was transitioning again, we knew we had had our last child, the mommy, the intensive mommy ness was kind of settling a bit. Our careers were in a better place. We had some money, we had a home, we had, you know, like things had kind of settled and I felt this real transition start to happen. And that's when I went and climbed Mount Kilimanjaro because right around then, because I really, I didn't do it to know, you know, to come away knowing what the next step was going to be for me. But I went to quiet my mind and really just try to figure out how I could listen without the noise. And I'm sure I didn't have to go to Africa to do that, but it was, I was on my bucket list anyway, and it was the first name president I've wanted to do. So it kind of, you know, checked off a lot of boxes, but it did. Provide me that opportunity to just clear space so that I felt open up to the next thing. And that's when you know, it was like, all right, are you going to go back to medical school or are you going to do something else? And I really had to make peace with the fact that medical school, that ship had sailed for me, just, it was not something I was willing to commit to. Again, I understood what the commitment meant and how long. For just the, you know, just going back to school and just the training and how narrow I needed to make my life again to accomplish that. And my life was really big by then. It was like, give me no children and friends and, um, volunteer work and my career and just, uh, a fun life with my husband. And, you know, as a couple, and I didn't want to narrow it back down. So that was really hard to let go of that. But the thing that kept coming back to me and the thing he would always say in the background is write the damn book already, write the handbook already. And I was like, but you don't. Not as easy as you think. And he's like, but you can do it. And he really always believed I could do it. And so. When I opened the, I want to say the flood gate. Well, when I cracked open the door and allowed this idea that I could be an artist of some sort, but that was living in me and it always had been, but I just kind of stuffed it down and was just no room for it. You know, I just didn't have the mental capacity with little kids and career and all that. But when I cracked it open and I started actually doing it, it opened up this whole other side of me, this vulnerable side, that. That artist's side and infiltrated every aspect of my life. It's the strangest thing. I almost don't have words for how it happened, but it infiltrated like my ability to create. My ability to parent my ability, but mostly it absolutely impacted my ability to show up in the relationship. And it was very alarming to me. I'm like, Oh my God, I love you so much. And I'm like, Oh Jesus. Monica: Right? Like you're holding yourself. Tabitha: Give yourself woman. You can't be this vulnerable in front of a man. I'm any man. And I'm like the man that has proven himself for 20 years. That he's you me now. Um, I mean that one, Monica: my God, I had the chills right now. Tabitha: Yup. And so it was kind of a fight in my own head about that. And I, but the thing was, is we did have this really beautiful, uh, way of always communicating and always being honest with one another. So I actually said that to him. I was like, Oh my God, I really do love you this much. He's like, ah, thanks, honey. I guess you're just figuring it out after all this time.No, no. You know what I mean? And the beauty of it is. He did know what I meant. Monica: He did know. Tabitha: He did know, he knew it was there. He knew I felt it, but like for me to really allow it out to be, you know, it's very vulnerable and it's very, it's a, it's a very vulnerable space, Monica: you know, Tabitha, I am going to guess, you know, that. Our listeners can relate a lot more than we might think. The reason I say that is because I don't, I think that the story you just shared is something that often we keep very close to the vest. It doesn't sound particularly flattering until you kind of really unpack it because I think it's true. And I, and. There I can relate so much to what you're saying. And I don't know if other women are out there nodding their heads or not, but I do think that there's, there's a way that, you know, until you meet that man, that really kind of shows up and is steadfast and really is willing to grow with you and be with you and show up for you. And isn't interested in. Getting threatened when you shine, you know, that they actually want you to shine. Uh, cause that's the other way that I really see both of you is that you give each other the space to grow and know yourselves. And then I see you often come back to the relationship and kind of exchange that growth and integrate that growth with each other in your marriage. Tabitha: It's it's really been an interesting journey. And I still give credit some credit back to my college roommate who said, what's on the other side, you know, like, why don't you want to see what it could be? Only if it's the right person. Of course she wasn't making the judgment one way or another about that. But I knew in my heart, there was no better, you know, person out there and that he was everything that. I could have wanted, it was just, and then I had another interesting experience and they all sort of go together. And I think it's because, you know, when we're in the midst of the parenting and the building and the, you know, the trying to establish our lives, it's just noisy, you know? And, and so for me, the, the ability to slow down, take a breath, go on that, you know, spiritual journey kind of thing, like physically and actually in my mind, and also, you know, Recognize that I have this other side that I hadn't been honoring and all it all sort of dovetailed together and, and like just really cracked me open. And that was a, a fascinating thing to have happened. So one of the another time, and I just recently told him this one and yeah, he's over being he's over being like great honey. Thanks. You know, I was actually at a conference I got to go to, I was the delegate for our school, for the national conference, for the. For the Waldorf schools. Monica: Cause you're still on the board. Tabitha: Yeah, I am the board president actually right now, but this was years ago. So this is probably over 10 or 12 years ago. And I was, I don't even remember which conference it was, but they were they're wonderful conferences. They're so fruitful and they're so growth oriented and you feel like you're participating in something bigger than yourself, bigger than your school. So I loved going to them, but, and there was always an artistic. Component to it for your own personal growth. And there was a writing workshop and I had just started thinking about, I should probably start writing that book, you know? And so I went to this writing workshop and we wrote poetry, which I am not a big poet. I'm not a big fan of reading it. I'm not a big fan of writing it. I appreciate it greatly, but it's just not my stuff's about my jam, you know? And so, but this woman I really wanted to do it. She was brilliant. And she had, she was coaching us through these exercises. And I remember it again, it cracked open this piece of myself that I allowed out. And I, and I was talking with her afterwards and we were talking about relationships because I must have written a love poem. That was really interesting. And, and I remember saying to her, what if he's not enough? Just because we all wonder that sometimes I think about like, you know, what if, what if, what if he's not enough? What if it's not enough? Monica: Where, what if I grow him or whatever I did? Tabitha: What if it's not? And she just looked at me and honest to God, it was like a moment. She goes, Oh honey, what if he is. And I was like, Oh, and, and I went back with that and I thought, shit, that's probably the more scarier version, isn't it? Because then it's, I don't have an excuse to hold back. Um, and I shared that with him recently and he just, of course he put it, you know, he's like put it in the pile, like kind of crappy, but, you know, but I, but also he understands because he understands me, you know, and that's been an interesting. It's it's an interesting growth as a couple. Monica: Yeah. Well, I, I, you know, again, it's just that, you know, I find myself over here smiling. Like obviously nobody can see me, but I feel like I'm just smiling bigger than I've smiled in weeks because. What I'm really resonating with here is the fact that, you know, we often think that, you know exactly what you're saying. Like, I'm outgrow, I'm going to outgrow this. Or, or what if right, what if this, what if that, and rarely do we flip it on its head and really look at, you know, that other side of it where like, well, what if. I just lean in, what if I like open? What if I allow, what if I invite, you know, and it's like, that gets really, that's the scarier more kind of gritty, messy truth of it. Tabitha: And, Monica: and it really stretches us. So I love that because paradoxically, right. It also really kind of works out. And so. Tabitha: Well, it's so satisfying when it's, when you do it, you know, I mean, yes, you've left yourself open and vulnerable. And I probably, you know, we were so young when we met, we did have, we had to grow into ourselves and grow up and grow up together in order to, I think for me to be able to expose that side of myself, you know, I think especially as a woman growing up, you know, we need to find our voice. We need to. We need to know our own mind. We need to know what our needs are. And our, and I probably just didn't know enough about that in addition to just, it's just scary and hard. And so those things Monica: right, I will exactly. Cause I was going to say yes to, of course you were only 20. But I'd say that we can all relate, even if we had did the marriage and commitment and family thing in our thirties or forties for that matter or later it, no matter what, I think there's a process of kind of really allowing that kind of love to take root and bloom and be part. Allow it, you know, allow it in, especially if you've got a partner that, you know, you do feel seen and safe and known with, and they're not going anywhere. And you can know that they're also human. They screw up, they fuck up, they may mistakes as do we Tabitha: as do Monica: we. And so it becomes just when you really, really love each other in that way. Yeah. It really becomes a conversation, you know, where you can co-create and redesign anything, you know? And that's the thing that I'm really learning in my partnership is that when I get to the point where I'm feeling lonely or I'm feeling like we're not on the same page, I kind of venture into that messy conversation. And I know that we can navigate it together, you know? Tabitha: Yes. And you, and you know that you can make a mistake. It's, it's really wonderful to be able to make a mistake and still know you're loved. You know, it's like it's it's and very few other relationships offer that. A good parent, I think is that's what we should be offering our children. Is that unconditional? No, you're going to screw up and I love you anyway. And I've got your back. You may have be held accountable. I may have to, you know, whatever tough love you, but I'm going to love you no matter what, and that's an injury, you know, I guess in my life, I never really thought that you could have that with a partner too. Monica: Yeah. I love that. You know, I use, you reminded me of the fact that I used to say to my children all the time you have two jobs, one is to play and the other is to make mistakes and learn from them. That's it lovely. And it will actually in a third one, which was, and never hit each other. Tabitha: This is a peaceful land. That's what our kindergarten teacher always would say. And this is a peaceful land. Monica: Also what I always say to my kids still, and they just roll their eyes is like gentle hands even came up last night, gentle hands, because of course now they Biff each other and they think it's really funny. Oh my God. So I want to go back to something. You said, Todd, you said. That there was this piece of yourself that you held back, and I'm not sure if you know what that is yet, but one of the things that you said that really intrigued me was that it was writing that started and I make up, you might not have said it, but just writing that actually allowed you to soften that allowed you to kind of get vulnerable. So tell me more about that. Tabitha: Oh, it's so interesting because the process, when you are, you know, when you really are committing to writing something, and even if you're writing non-fiction I, I imagine, and I write some, I've done some articles and things like that, and I've done some projects that are non-fiction projects. You're putting. A piece of your heart and soul into it. And then even if you're writing fiction, which is of course completely made up, you're putting your heart and soul into something and then you're putting it out into the world and you're offering people an opportunity to interact with it and respond to it and criticize it. And that's really hard to do cause it's like, This is my baby and I've made it and I've taken this much time and I've put in my heart and soul, put my heart and soul into it. Now you didn't really like it that much. Oh my God. It's it forces you to be vulnerable in a way that I didn't expect I, that was unexpected for me when I published my first book. And you know, when you get bad reviews, I have a lot of really good reviews, but some of them are, you know, that's hard, it cuts, it hurts. And I think there's a parallel between opening yourself up. That way. If for me, it was like, once I accepted that I had to open myself up and become vulnerable in this other way. I couldn't help, but let it happen in all these other areas of my life. It just happened. And I just was like, okay, well I survived and I'm, you know, and it's okay. And it's actually, and I think about that Bernay Brown. Podcasts that I, I think you both, you recommended to me at one time and it was on vulnerability and she talked about living wholeheartedly. Yeah. And it's what I realized was happening to me that the pieces that I'd held back, the pieces that I protected, the pieces that I didn't put out there once I did the whole experience got richer and more powerful and more. Satisfying. So with the risk also comes this payoff of true wholehearted living and of, of an experience that you're fully immersed in it. And at the end of the day, you know, when I go staggering into my. Coffin at the end of it. When I go Monica: staggering, I gotta find a good, good word action word for mine. Tabitha: Yeah. I just, you know, stumble over the side, but I want to go in not having held anything back, you know? And so the process of, of engaging with my art. It was what helped me do it? I don't know that everybody's is the same. Sometimes it's becoming a parent who knows if you've had really traumatic childhood yourself, it could be that moment of being a parent where that love fours out, that it cracks open for you. It could be, I don't know. I didn't have any trouble with that. That love poured out. And I, you know, but it was this other side, you know, this side I really protected my heart and my. And once I couldn't anymore, or once it was out there and all these other ways, uh, it permeated the rest of my life. And, but I have to say, my life feels really satisfying and really, I like it, you know? Monica: Well, and I think Bernay Brown also says, and I'm going to butcher it because I always do. But like something like, uh, Soft front, strong back wild heart or something like that, you know? And it's yeah. But men has, has that woman ever brought the world a gift with her revelations on vulnerability, right? Yeah. It's like, wow. Tabitha: Wow. Vulnerability does not mean you are not strong. No. Monica: And the fact, you know, that. But she is uniquely kind of uniquely designed to bring that message because you can see her strength, you know, you can see her strength, you can see her intellect. You can, there's nothing about her that doesn't kind of come across that way. And so I love, you know, how. When you, when you really get to know somebody in their work, you really can recognize how uniquely designed they are in their specific way to bring that work to the world. And I want to also kind of go back to what you said about the process of engaging in your art. Do you think tab that everybody has an art and I use air quotes. Tabitha: I, I, you know, it's, that's interesting because if you'd asked me this before I started writing in earnest and again, I've always, Oh, you're a great writer. You're a great writer. Well, there's a very big difference though. Being a technically good writer, I could write up a paper in school, no matter what, you know what, uh, When I was studying, I could write ad copy blogs. You know, I knew I was a good writer, but the creative side, that's the art side, you know? And, um, I didn't really trust that I had, uh, you know, enough storytelling ability to do that. So. If you would ask me this question before I really started on that, I would have said, nah, I'm not really not, you know, I, I, yes, I used to be able to paint when I was a little bit, I'm not interested in that. I don't really care about those, that side of myself, but I, I do think we all have something. I think it's part of what makes us. Human. Even when we're a scientist, you know, even when we're there's this, because there's this generative creativity that comes with innovation and, and I think art is innovative and science can be innovative and we may not use so those people may never, we may never look at them as true as artists in the definition that we would give artists, they're not painting, they're not writing words, there's playing music or creating something of that way. But the folks that really do innovate, I think, and create in their career. I think that's an art form in and of itself in some way. So that's a good question. And I would have answered it differently, I think 12 years ago than I do now. Just, yeah. Monica: And so of course I had to like run and pull up the definition. So here's the definition of art, the expression or application of human, creative skill and imagination. Typically in a visual form, such as painting or sculpture producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power. Of course, they, they mentioned all of the various kinds, but it's really interesting because I gave a workshop on inside of a membership on creativity. We were kind of exploring paradoxes and a lot of women in that particular workshop were like, ah, dreading the creation activity one, you know, and like, I'm not creative, I'm not creative. And yet I found that every single one of those women had. A creative essence in her in terms of how she approached things, how she looked at things, how she captured her version of the world. And it's really, I think. Our birthright as women and as human beings, I'll go, I'll go back to what you said about, you know, what makes us human. But I also, as women, I think we're uniquely designed to create that there's, you know, there that's a huge conversation. So I, so I won't go too far into it, but what I will say is this. I think a lot of women kind of give up on their ability to allow themselves to believe that they can do anything they want at any age. And I love, love, love that you didn't know that you were going to become a writer. Like probably if I had asked you at 38, you would have looked at me with three heads. Tabitha: Yep. Probably. And it's funny because I do think there's there's little hints throughout, you know, of things that we're good at. I, a couple of things to say about that one is that, you know, if you'd asked me when I was a child, it was writer, doctor writer, astronaut writer, archeologist writer. It was in there. But then as I became an adult and realized. Well, it's more than just writing a horse story poem that I did when I was a child. There's really this other aspect to becoming a writer and I sort of lost interest in it, honestly. And I had a little bit of fear that I, that I wouldn't be good enough at it for sure. And. As they came back around to it. I realized that some of the things that I was afraid to do, you know, bring a story through to completion. We're just, we're just in my own head. And of course that that's, I think the case with a lot of people. So ask me again, what you were, you started to say that I lost my little piece of where I was going with that because I had a really good something I wanted to say, if you kill me again, I might Monica: think of it. No, no worries. No worries. The Tabitha: brain, the see the 50 brain is Monica: I know, I know it's so good though. Well, so. I was just kind of pointing to the fact of you really reinventing yourself. Tabitha: Oh yes. Okay. I got it. Now. I know what I wanted to say. So when I was in medical school and I knew it wasn't working for me, I couldn't be the mother that I wanted to be, the wife that I wanted to be, or the student that I wanted to be. I was very, it was a very frustrating experience. I loved medical school. I went when I was a little bit older, so, you know, I had two kids when I started a baby, you know, nine month old and a five and a half or six year old. And. And I just felt like, gosh, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not doing anything well, and it just, it was frustration all the way around. And I remember sitting with my advisor, who's a lovely man. And he just was so supportive of. Me and my everything I wanted to say to him in that office in tears half the time. And he said, you know, he's, I think that you might want to think about this. Perhaps you can have everything, but maybe it's just not all at once. And that piece of advice really stuck with me and allowed me to think. And it's almost something that you can't process when you don't have enough life experience. So it's sort of like a double-edged sword or a, you know, it's a conundrum because you, you realize that when you've had enough life experience to realize you've lived long enough to say, Oh, these things do happen in good time and, and everything doesn't have to be stuffed into this one point in your life, but it's almost like you can't have that perspective until you come out on, on the other side of it. So it was really. Valuable for me to hear somebody say that and have to go and take that off, take that away and really use it in my decision-making. Even though I didn't have the experience to, to believe it was true yet. You know what I mean? So I went back and I said, okay, what do I, what is for today? What is my work of right now? I have already brought two children into the world that I'd like to have more. That is my work of now and medical school. I would be a great doctor. I know I could be, but it's not the work of right now. And so putting that aside was hard, but it also felt right. And then, you know, I threw myself into the kids and the career at the Waldorf school, which was so satisfying and then came to another crossroad where I'm like, okay, this pieces. Over not over, but I knew I was winding to the end of my accidental career, we'll say, and what was next for me? And that phrase came out again. You can have it just not all at once. I'm like, okay, well what's, what's the work of now. And that's when I had to honestly be honest and say, I have to let go of medical school completely.The only thing that really gets me excited like that does is writing. Hmm. And once I said that out loud and I was like, well, if I, if I succeed or I fail at it, doesn't matter because it's, it's the work of now for me. Um, so I just dove in and, and it's, that's actually been a pretty good run. I mean, I, you know, what does success look like as a writer who knows? Right. Is it, is it New York times bestselling list? Is it w awards? Is it multiple books published? I, you know, I, I don't know. I set different. Goals about that, but I'm really careful to set goals that I can achieve, not goals that are not, uh, that are beyond my, uh, that I don't have control over. You know, I don't have control over Monica: or goals that are, you know, it's, it's such a great thing that you're, you're pointing to too. It's like your definition of success versus kind of the outside world's definition of success, which, you know, frankly, I just wrote about that myself this morning, just in terms of like, what. You know, everybody has told me that I should be doing in order to monetize the podcast or whatever those things are. Right. And it's like, right. Yeah. Well, that's not my goal actually. So that's not my measure of success. Isn't to monetize the podcast now all in good time. Right? Like that's a possibility, but it's not my focus at this point. So it's really, it's really such a great, such a great piece of wisdom. And the other piece I want to. Dive into a little bit more as the fact that you started really diving in with science fiction writing and really created a series. I know that your work is loved and read, um, by many, many people who love science fiction. And of course that wasn't enough as I say fun, because you were like, and while I'm at it, you know, I'm going to also. Try my hand at romance. And I want to say, I want to also put out there that one of the most amazing things that I got so curious about was your venture into erotica. And so I would love for you to talk about kind of just, just that, you know, the, the transition and what you started to reveal about yourself. Tabitha: Well, the science fiction, you know, I, I. I think that it's the place I always would have started because as a little girl, star Wars, star Trek, you know, those are just that sense of imagination. I used to sit outside and lay on the, I lived in Scituate, so it was really dark. It was just rural area in Rhode Island. And yeah, I would look up at the stars and that sense of what is out there and, Oh my gosh, I'll be the only ones here. I w I pondered those big questions, even when I was little. And I feel like science fiction is a, is an area that you can dive. Human condition questions, but you can set them sort of far enough apart that it's not an, it's not as uncomfortable to deal with them, you know? And so you can take issues in the modern world and you set them suddenly you set them in space or it's another race of beings or it's whatever. And you can really grapple with them in a, in a, in an interesting and creative way. So I've always loved science fiction for those reasons. One it's just. The imagination. It's where my imagination goes. And I, I find it a very fertile place to tell stories and to grapple with big themes without being dogmatic or, or, or just beating somebody over the head with your worldview and your philosophy on life or politics or whatever. So that was, that was why I started there. I still write in that speculative fiction genre, I've released a couple of horror, short stories. I've released a couple of high fantasy short stories, and I'm working on a full length, urban fantasy. It's a little bit dark and a little bit, and certainly not a romance. So, um, you know, I, I still love writing in those worlds for those reasons. Why did I get involved with romance? I felt like. I love character driven stories. And there is a piece of me that loves the happy ending and you don't always get to do that Rose, you know, like that true, happy ending ride off into the sunset and has there. So I think the romance is, is fun for me to write. And I also, again, like to dive into the deep character driven narratives, which romance provides you up, all the other genres do, too. If that's the way you take them, but for sure romance is one of those areas. And I also think that. There's some really good storytelling there. And when it, the only difference is is that the relationship is central and it has to have a happy ending, you know? So there's, there's as many options in romance as there aren't any other genre and they're not all the same. So I've found it to be a lot of fun to do. And then the erotica. I just, I think I write a really good sexy stuff. Monica: So I have the whole group of girlfriends. We all, we all practice bragging together. So Tabitha: absolutely, and okay. Let's be honest. I've had a pretty good sex life over the course of less. So it's just, it's, I'm, it's fun at the end of the day. Like I do want my work to stay fresh and be fun. Right. And yet it's really important for me to tell a good story. So, and any, any one of these genres that I hop into, I it's really important to me that I do my best work and tell the best story that I can in that sphere. Um, and, and have fun. Monica: Yeah. So let me ask you something about the erotica. Did you know that about yourself? Did you know, like, for example, when you, like, if somebody sat me down and was like, okay, Monica, today, we're going to array write erotic fiction. I would be like, Tabitha: Um, Monica: I wouldn't even, and so it's really an interesting thing for me to even sit here and imagine, but I think that's probably how you started to like, Oh yeah. Tabitha: Like you had asked me this 10 years ago, I'd be like, what? No, of course not. You know, and Monica: now I'm like, I am an administrator of a Tabitha: school for having sex. Right. Yeah. And even though, again, we had a very, you know, my husband, I have a very, that's a telltale sign of school, but very healthy and adventurous sex life. You know, the two of us, we just, that's just who we are Monica: as Tabitha: a couple. And that's, that's a nice thing. I didn't think I would be writing things in that, you know, because of that. That's not why I write that way. They're fun. From a technical standpoint, writing sex is a bit like writing an action scene. There's some real similar. Reasons why you would include like my, my romantic suspense series, the books that I have there. I mean, they, the door, the bedroom door is pretty wide open. I do some pretty graphic scenes in there, but it's not erotica either. I, that those books are not erotica. So, you know, you decide sort of in the beginning, what level you're comfortable with, what suits, what you're writing, what your audience is expecting of, of. That book when they open it, you know? So I've, I consider all of those things as a professional in the industry. And then, then I think about how do you craft a good one? And so for me, when I write a sex scene into the romantic suspense, or even when I add a little bit into my other books, I want that those scenes to reveal something about the character, you know, um, see into their inner workings, you know, in how they show up intimately. So I think it's really effective. And then also. Sometimes just from a storytelling perspective, you know, you you've, you've, they've waited and waited and waited and you've put them through the ringer and the audience and the characters deserve the payoff, you know, like here's your great theme. Um, so there's different reasons why I do it. I don't do it gratuitously in my, um, You know, in my, in my books, I feel like it should have a place, even if it's the most explicit scene with the most crazy, you know, monkey sex I could possibly write. It's still, it's either revealing something about those characters and their intimacy or they're working through something or it's it furthers the plot somehow. Right. So that's how I kind of look at it there when I'm just writing an erotic scene for the sake of like, I have this great scene in my head. That's just pure, fun and pure sexiness. And I think there's nothing wrong with that either, you know? Monica: No, absolutely not. In fact, I remember, you know, at one point you were really considering a platform to really encourage other erotic writers. And one of the things that I loved the most about that idea is that I think there's a way that we as women really. Want that kind of depth and character development and a deeper understanding. And there's a way that sometimes we can, you know, explore our own selves and our own fantasies by reading something that's more engaging and has more, you know, breadth and depth. And certainly there's that side of it. That's always also been taboo for a lot of women. And so I wonder if you could talk. At all about what you learned doing that venture and whether or not the world was kind of ready for that yet? Tabitha: I definitely think that it's becoming more mainstream to, to, to read and write in that area. I think it's just it's to me, I realized. Just like human beings are so very different in how we look and how we, you know, our interests, our sexuality is so very varied and interesting. And, and to be able to explore that and truly say, you know, obviously there are lines that are, you know, you don't cross because it's predatory or it's, you know, when you're, when you're in the realm of consensual. It's really just amazing at what turns people on and, and, and, and myself included. And, and it's like, wow, that's really fascinating. And it's an exploration. And I think if we just take the, the taboo out of that exploration, that's not a bad thing, you know, that that's really not a bad thing. And, you know, just to loop this into raising children, You know, I have boys and a girl and you have boy and girl, and you know, what message are we trying to give them about their bodies and about how they interact with others. And to me, it's, you know, there's a couple of things there. It's fun. It's natural. There's nothing shameful about it. As long as we engage responsibly and consensually at all times. And so once that's in place that framework, the fun of, I don't know, investigating and exploring. Different sexual things. It's, it's fun. It's, it's, it's just fun. And you can take all of the shame, shame out of it. If you look at it in those, in that way. And I do think by having more of a plot, having platforms like the one I was, you know, we did have for a little while, but there's others out there, you know? And there's a whole huge industry of erotica. I actually think that's really good for us as human beings. You know, we need to get away from our. So uptight version of what's right about sex. And what's not as long as again, it's the consensual and responsible is the backbone of it. Monica: Right. And again, we're talking about erotica here and not porn. Like there's, there's also a difference in that that's a different conversation and Tabitha: yes, Monica: but I do, I do think and agree with you that that is, that is such a place for exploration. And I love again that it's just. Uh, fertile territory to really kind of explore and learn more, not only about yourself and, you know, and, and I love how you were like, Tabitha: even me, like I was like, why do Monica: I like that? Why, you know, it's, it's so interesting. I remember reading, I think it was Esther Parral. She wrote mating in captivity. It was more of the psychology behind kind of why certain people like certain things. And I think I just found myself fascinating. It Tabitha: really is. And you're like, huh? My a freak. Well, I guess I Monica: am, but other people I'm going to get my freak on. Tabitha: Flag along with this whole big group of other people. And at the end of the day, there is no right. There is no standard of sexual norm. I really don't believe there is Monica: there's two. And I think we're in more, you know, just as you mentioned, that's becoming a larger container and a more fluid container for people to really explore. So as we kind of wrap up tap, what I really want to do is. You know, first of all, thank you for your time here, but I also really want to say for, you know, for those listeners that might be tuning in today and hearing about you and maybe kind of more intrigued about. Your creative process or what advice you might give to them about why? I know that there are listeners out there that are, that have always dreamed of writing write, like what, what, what advice would you give them? Tabitha: So, The first thing is, is if you want to do it, there isn't anything holding you back. And if you seriously want to, like, if the thing is that I've always wanted to noodle in my journal and just be more PR you know, that's one thing. But if you really have that impulse of, I I've always wanted to write a book and I feel like I have stories in me to write books, then just write one and just get it out. You have nothing. If you don't have a finished product, so finish something, start it and finish it. And then know that that's only the beginning, if you want it to go anywhere else past that. So those were the two things that I think for me got over my hump. I finished a manuscript, it was a 90,000 word manuscript. So it was the real deal. I knew I had something there to work with at that point. And even if that particular manuscript never went anywhere. It, the learning process of how do you begin something? How do you end something? How do you get through that sticky middle part? When you think it's just all going to fall apart, how do you work through those things? There's valuable lessons in completing the process. So I would say if you really want to write a book, write a whole book, don't keep starting and stopping. And so I have another new idea commit to something, get to the end of it. It's worth it to do it. Even if you have to scrap that one later. Okay. Once you do then also know that a lot of work goes into what I'll call post production. I mean, I, I wrote a book in nine months. I edited for two years, my first one. Now that cuts down after time, I'm working on my seventh full length manuscript right now, and this is not take, it will never take that long again. I don't think I hope not Jesus, but I'm right. But, but that process, that piece of understanding of what you start with and what you end up with, maybe two different things. That's okay. And then also be prepared to be cracked, open, wide, open, uh, on a level. And maybe every, maybe this is not everybody else's growth path with when they become an artist of some sort, but just be prepared if you weren't really vulnerable before you will be now. Yeah. Those are some of the things that I think about when. You know, and there's a whole professional and behave professional. If you want to enter this sphere as a professional behave professionally. Monica: And did, did you have, um, I'm just curious. Did you have support, did you have a community that you leaned into while you were doing this? Tabitha: Um, I made one, I certainly, my community was different when I was working at the Waldorf school and it was a very rich and beautiful and, and, and I still have that community, but I did need to engage a new one as well because the process of writing is very unique and there's just some similarities of how we have to. What we go through to bring a book into the world. And so I, I found some writer, friends early on that we started sort of in the same place, and they're still really good friends to this day. And they may not be people that I see all the time, but they, the level of intensity of the friendships that I have with those folks is doesn't match how long I've known them. You know? So. Yeah, I did create a good writing community around myself there too. Let's just add it to what I've already had. Monica: Right, right. But, but I think one of the things that's, you know, really apparent to me as we kind of endeavor to do new things that as we shift that conversation and look toward that horizon, no pun intended, you know, it, it really is true that. Creating kind of a structure or a container of support. Accountability. Community is so important. Tabitha: It is because every time I would get to the middle of a book, whether it was my first one or now my seventh one, I get to this place where I'm like, Oh my God, what was I thinking? I I've lost the plot completely. I'm a terrible writer. What was I, how did I ever think I was going to do this career? I go to that place and now I have. My own experience to know I come out the other side of it, but in the VR, in the beginning, it was really nice to know that that was not an unusual space to sit in and have to grapple with. As a writer, there's just unique experiences. It's just like a moms, you know, like we want to be friends with other moms while we're raising our kids because there's. These experiences that are just unique to motherhood or fatherhood or anything that we're doing that has its own like set of rules around it, or, you know, you want to know you're not alone in it. And you want the support of somebody next to you. Monica: Yeah. Yeah. It's in tab. Last question is just, where would you like to tell people that they can find more out about you? Is there anything specific that you're promoting right now that you want to share? Tabitha: Well, um, so my. Science fiction. My speculative fiction author website is Tabitha Lord author.com. And so, and all of my social media around that Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook are all Tabitha Lord. And then my pen name for the romantic suspense. And just the other romance that I would do is Maggie Claire. So that's Ms. Maggie, Claire, a G I E C L a R E a. So again, I have a website there and then all the social media for Maggie is Ms. Maggie, Claire, what else? I think that's where you can find me on. In the real world and in the, in the virtual world, Monica: in the virtual world in kind of a real Tabitha: world, sort of a virtual real world. Monica: Well, I, I can't thank you enough. I knew that this would be such a rich conversation. I feel like, you know, every time you and I sit down, I'm always like, Oh, hi, so many things I want to ask you. Tabitha: And that we just keep talking know. Monica: So great cause I've of course, uh, known you in so many different capacities and it was just a pleasure to be able to bring this conversation, uh, to my listeners. And I really, really just as you know, adore you and continue to wish you all the best and happy holidays. Coming up tab. So thank you so much. Yeah. And to our listeners, of course, we'll put Tabitha's information in the show notes and more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.