184: Jim Young - How Tough Guys Heal Burn Out 
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a Revelation Project and what gets revealed, gets healed.

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Monica: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the revelation project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, your host, and today I'm with Jim Young. As he grew from boyhood into manhood, Jim Young was handed a set of cultural beliefs that told him to go it alone. Never ask for help and to prove his manliness at every turn.

Monica: Eventually, his life experience revealed how dangerous and lonely that path was. Today, Jim moves through life guided by the principles of expansive intimacy. And I'm so glad he's able to join us today because he also has a new book out. called expansive intimacy, how tough guys defeat burnout. Welcome Jim.

Jim: Monica. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm so excited for the conversation today. 

Monica: Me too. And I just want to start with this whole concept of tough guy, because it it's just talk about. All the ways that Tough Guy has been such a part of the cultural conditioning in our gender roles. And of course, as a young man, I'm sure that you have much to add to the conversation as you grew up into your own kind of maturity and understanding of what.

Monica: This cultural and social conditioning really does to us and these gender roles, what they cost us. And of course, I have a son and I heard you have a son. And so I'm so glad that we're creating this conversation today because This time in our human evolution is, I believe, our opportunity to redefine and reimagine what manhood and womanhood and gender roles and all these things are really all about.

Jim: Yeah. The tough guy label in the subtitle of the book, it's in quotes and that's intentional. It was for me growing up. It was a something to strive for. Like I needed to be tough and that started super early. That's king of the hill on the playground. You had to be tough to get to the top of that pile and and then you have to be even tougher to stay on top.

Jim: And I was never good at it. I was a shy, sensitive kid. I would cry easily. And that was really difficult because there's a I was conditioned and it was not that somebody told me. I didn't have a dad who lived in the house with me. I have a lot of male role models that were present every day in my life.

Jim: But I got the influences all over the place that you need to be tough and it continued. It got worse in adolescence and I learned to toughen up. Mhm. Problem with that was that when I learned to toughen up, that just meant I put on this hardened shell and I turned off parts of me that were actually decades later revealed to be some of my gifts, my sensitivity, my vulnerability, my empathy, my compassion.

Monica: For our listeners, we just chose a card before we came on as I love to do and we got the despicable face, which I love that card because those are those hidden aspects of ourselves that we believe we need to hide. that we hide behind. And in your case, it sounds like that sensitive guy was behind these masks of tough guy and I've got it handled and I can do this and I'm capable all the ways that you really needed to survive out there in the world.

Jim: And it was surviving in every scenario. It was with the guys I needed to level up to whatever their toughness was. It was with girls too. Like I felt like I had to have this edge and You know, I had to, I had to look tough enough to be, to be manly enough for, for the dating world was in my professional life.

Jim: I had to be able to grind through and, you know, do whatever it takes really just the, the entire ocean that I was swimming in felt like you just have to, you have to man up as the expression goes and there was no getting away from it. It seemed I. I really got, if I follow the ocean metaphor, I was just out to sea.

Jim: I was adrift for a long, long time, just thinking like, how do I do this? 

Monica: You were sharing before that you didn't have a whole lot of male role models and growing up, it sounds, were you in a house with a single mother? 

Jim: Yeah, I grew up with my mom and my sister. My mom had a live in boyfriend. Earlier in life, he was abusive, alcoholic, dangerous, and that was really hard for me.

Jim: I was really scared. And when he left the house, my mom anointed me the man of the house. I was about nine years old took it

Jim: because I said, okay, well, this is what I'm supposed to do. I became a man at the age of nine years old and without having anyone to talk to about it or any. any models to play it against. I just figured it out. I just said, okay, well, I think it means that I just do all the dirty work and I don't complain about it.

Jim: I don't have any feelings about it. I just, I just do it. 

Monica: Yeah. It's almost like turning off a switch in order to just get it done, get by. Another way of disassociating and this is a brings in a topic that I talk about often as it relates to women, but I'm really starting to realize that more and more it relates to all of us who have been socialized to hide these what we would call feminine aspects of ourselves in society.

Jim: Yeah. And for me, it, there was this double edged sword. I was getting rewarded. I was being praised for stepping up and doing these masculine things that felt completely scary and foreign to me. And at the same time, I was hiding these feminine qualities that I have, because I was afraid if anybody found out about those, if that's who people really saw me as my, my buddies at school or whatever, that I'd get shamed.

Jim: I'd get called names. And I'd be cast out. 

Monica: Yeah. Shame. Wow. Okay. That's I love that you brought that in because I think it's such a huge topic for everyone, but it seems to be a real driver in terms of getting men to perform their role to avoid shame. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to hear your. Any of your thoughts on shame and how showed up in your life, but also what is its role in the realm of male intimacy or the, or males fear of intimacy.

Jim: Yeah, this is a subject that I've been really exploring depths of for the last, I mean, I would say probably about seven years is when I started to acknowledge my own shame, maybe nine years, something like that. And in, in writing the book. That I wrote on the idea behind the book was, well, intimacy had cured my burnout.

Jim: And those were the two topics I wanted to, to write about. And as I was writing, there was a big piece missing and it popped up one day and it was shame. It was that shame is this force. That, for me, growing up male in this society, I knew what success was supposed to look like. I knew how I was supposed to be to get there.

Jim: I was supposed to be a tough guy. I couldn't ask for help. I shouldn't show my emotions. I needed to be strong, successful. And doing that burned me out. It got me into burnout. I over I over functioned. I worked my ass off to try and prove myself to the point Of burnout. The problem is once I got into burnout, it was hard to say that because that's even more shaming to say I couldn't handle it.

Jim: Eventually, when I moved through that, and I got through to the other side, and I just, I kind of had to, I got broken all the way down, and I had to start sharing what was real and true for me. I had to reveal myself to other people, and that created these intimate connections. It dissolved my shame. We were looking at the card, uh, the, the alchemy card before, and, you know, when we reveal ourselves, when we reveal that, Despicable face we start to realize its beauty and I had that profound experience that as I learned from bernie brown cognitively years ago going through the experience of sharing these parts of me that felt completely shameful with other people I didn't feel it anymore and I actually started to create these bonds with people and I created intimacy including with other men which you Has always felt challenging for me.

Jim: So that was a long answer. I don't know if I got to everything in here. 

Monica: No, it's so great because I'm going to go back to something that you said and underscore it. It was, you understood that bringing his work on shame cognitively. Yeah. And so this idea, even of intimacy is a cognitive one until we kind of embody it.

Monica: Yeah. Until we drop it from our head and get it kind of in the body, like, what does that mean to be intimate, to be seen by somebody else, to reveal the truth, warts and all, and have somebody stay and Be your witness and have you feel you're okay, like you're okay and even loved for it because it's human and that's where I want to get more curious because What, who was that person for you and what was kind of your first inkling of, Oh, this actually, I could do this.

Monica: I could actually connect with somebody on this level and this, this might be okay. 

Jim: The first man that I connected with in that way, this was. Almost 10 years ago now, I had started attending Al Anon meetings because I had grown up with and been in relationship with a lot of people afflicted with alcoholism and I didn't know it and I had a friend suggest to me to try out Al Anon and I found this community of people who were just so welcoming and so non judgmental and everything was so nice.

Jim: On table to talk about and i'm like i've never talked about this stuff and eventually i was encouraged to find a sponsor and i was ready the day i remember the day i sat down and i'm thinking okay i know who's going to be my sponsor it's this woman who i totally look up to and respect and i'm always looked towards women in my life as a safe place and i was going to ask her at the end of the meeting but at some point this guy spoke up i'm like he's my sponsor.

Jim: And I asked him and he agreed to work with me and he created such this safe space for me to be able to talk about what my experience was as a man in so many different ways. And we cried together and just things that I never would have contemplated ever having in a relationship with another man that opened up.

Jim: And I, I, I, I just felt like my, my physical being just kind of dropped three inches. Like I just, I fell this gravity of everything I'd been carrying started to dissipate and I started to say, okay, I can let this stuff out. It was so profound to have that experience with him. 

Monica: Would you say that he was the first guy who modeled that possibility?

Monica: I'm hearing that there was a resonance in you when you heard him speak and you were like, he's my sponsor. Yeah. Was that from something he said that he was modeling like, Oh, actually this guy has what I want. 

Jim: Yeah. He's so, he spoke in that day with such strength and clarity. An incredible softness and vulnerability, and I'd never seen that combination at the same time.

Jim: Yeah, 

Monica: it's intoxicating, actually. So attractive. Yeah, it's so attractive and so interesting because coming from female. Just my perspective and all of the ways that I too have been conditioned to begin realizing the similarities that men and women have, but in different ways that we've been socialized so differently.

Monica: And yet it's had, there are many similar impacts that cause us to be so fragmented, so burnt out, so exhausted, so overwhelmed and. As I'm listening to you talk about this guy, I too have had experiences in my life where I have been in the presence of a man who exuded both this strength and this vulnerability, these paradoxical seemingly qualities, and just.

Monica: God, it was so intoxicating. To me, it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen, and I wanted more of it. And I think us young girls are socialized to look to these tough guys, to be attracted to these tough guys. Somehow, the tough guy is the one who's always glorified. And when you... Really start to understand that social conditioning also has an element of programming to it, that we're really programmed to see and believe that what we're being shown is the way.

Monica: At some point, all of that, over and over and over again, my experience with people who have come to these realizations, these revelations, they have had to hit their own personal brick wall and reckon with The disillusionment of all of the ways that we have been trained to pursue these ways of being and these goals that have nothing to do at the end of the day with meeting any of our true needs as human beings.

Jim: Yeah, I see that so often in my work and I just, I had that visceral experience, the wall that I hit was called burnout and I, I was literally on my knees sobbing on the floor in my house, just this stark moment of like, wow, how did I get here? Mm hmm. And it was through this unconscious following of.

Jim: Striving and achievement and these goals that didn't matter to me personally, but I thought they were going to define me as somebody and stamp me as a real man as somebody who's successful and I love that you named that paradox of strength and vulnerability because I think it's, it's like courage and fear.

Jim: Right. You can't have one without the other. And I think you can't have strength without vulnerability. And, and we, when I finally years later realized like, Oh, I just was holding and hiding everything to try to look strong. That's not a workable equation. I had to let it out. And, and this, you know, the sponsor of mine was the first person who kind of cracked that open with me so that I could then say, Oh, yeah.

Jim: I just, I just get to say what's true. Yeah. I don't have to worry so much about what other people think about it. 

Monica: Exactly. I just have to say what's true. It's that moment where you're just like, I remember I called them like mirror moments where as long as I could look at myself in the mirror and know that I had spoken the truth, that was the only criteria.

Monica: Just being able to breathe freely. It's none of my business what other people think of me. But I just have to be true to me. I just have to speak the truth. I just have to tell the truth. I love that. Everybody at all of this, again, all of the incredibly just beautiful human beings that I've had the opportunity to interview have all mentioned this God of the floor, this God of the, whether it's the bathroom floor or the kitchen floor, or the bedroom floor.

Monica: I love the expression. I heard it recently. I can't remember who said it, but people can't see God because they don't look low enough. 

Jim: Mmm. Yeah. Wow. I was like, Oh, God was in the Berber carpeting of my sad dad condo. Oh, my 

Monica: God. Yes. Yes, God was in the Berber carpeting, the sad, bad condo, sad dad, that was my sad dad, divorce 

Jim: place I lived.

Jim: And it just felt so felt so shameful, right? Like I had, I had been in, in this marriage that looks perfect with the big house and the kids and all the things. And, and because I had just gone so unconscious in my life, right? That all fell apart and I found myself in this place of like, Oh my God, if anybody really knew who I was and what was going on with me, I never invited people over to that place.

Jim: I didn't want people to see where I lived. It was just deeply shameful. Like I failed. 42 years old, 43 years old, and I have failed at life. I have, I built the dream and then it's all gone. 

Monica: Okay, I just, now I'm getting playful. Good. Yeah, because, right? It's just like, like I failed at life at 42. There's just this 42 and I failed at life and I'm laughing because it's yep.

Monica: I just so Get that point. Yeah where you just reach it and you're just this Oozing bucket of shame. 

Jim: Totally. 

Monica: And I love that you named it the sad dad condo, because what better place to ooze all of the shame. 

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. In isolation. All by myself. 

Monica: Yes. You're like, even this I will handle alone. 

Jim: 100%. 

Monica: Mm hmm.

Jim: Because that's what I'm supposed to do. 

Monica: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So. So now I want to go. So I'm going to go to this different place, but I know we're going to connect all the dots. Yeah. What does burnout look like? And can you even see it? 

Jim: Oh, goodness. . Yeah, I think you can. The word that comes to mind for me, for a lot of the men that I deal with, who are, are in burnout, and finally willing to reveal it, is simmering.

Jim: It's this sense of simmering, like the lid's on, but the heat's rising. And, There, you know, this is a sweeping generalization. I think a lot of men tend to shut down when there are big emotions that are percolating inside them like. I feel frustrated. I feel scared. I feel confused. I feel angry. I feel worried.

Jim: I feel sad. You know, these are the kinds of emotions that were sitting underneath burnout for me was looking at life and saying This isn't what I wanted. This isn't I can't handle this lots of phrases like that And I think because of the mask that we're asked to put on by society we just get stoic and You know, the common refrain is going to be, it's fine.

Jim: I'm fine. Everything's fine, but you know, it's not right. You can feel the simmer behind that of like, no, there's something, could you just tell me? No, no, it's, it's good. I just, I'm just tired. So all this deflecting, you know, sometimes I'll have, when clients finally decide to come to me and I ask them to explain what's going on, I'll get things like, I just feel sluggish, or it's like I'm moving in wet cement.

Jim: Like there's all this code switching away from saying what's really going on. So I think it is hard to see because for men, we're socialized to not broadcast it. And it's this depleted sense of like, you know, somebody's light has just been dimmed. And you know, there's Somebody in there, there's something in there, but it's just not coming through anymore.

Jim: . That to me is what burnout looks like in men. 

Monica: So I'm thinking about what it looked like for me. And it was a lot of,

Monica: it was similar, but different. I'm really thinking about it in terms of, I kept creating kind of what I call this pretty picture to the point where nobody knew that behind the pretty picture was like a woman that was drowning in self loathing, you know, drowning in overwhelm, drowning in this sense of.

Monica: Just despair and exhaustion and still doing the tap dance in the foreground. Just so afraid to let anyone see what was really happening. And because, you know, I grew up with similar to you, my dad was. I'm thinking about my own role models in my life and how my dad was really also such a paradoxical figure in my life because he too was an alcoholic, could be very simmering, you know, as you say.

Monica: And yet he had his tender moments. He was very brilliant. He was very accomplished. And what I honestly saw, you know, my experience of my dad was he never got to rest. And when he finally did, he was diagnosed with cancer and had. Five years to live. And the reason I bring that up is because I think that burnout in men.

Monica: That is a story that I hear over and over and over again, that there's this huge drive. To provide, 

Jim: Provide and protect 

Monica: And to make sure that everybody is taken care of and at the end of the day, they're the last. In many cases to get taken care of and here's where the paradox gets interesting because I would say the same as for women.

Jim: Yeah. What if we were taking care of each other? 

Monica: Okay. Yes. And what if we were, what if we were to know that about that? It has these different disguises. Right. But it ultimately is leading us to the same place that we've had these different roles and different experiences that, but ultimately it leaves us in these very similar places.

Monica: And then how do we. Take care of ourselves first and then learn to take care of each other. 

Jim: Your listeners couldn't see it, but when you were telling your story of what your burnout was like and being in this distress behind this pretty picture up front, I just had this pain, it felt pain for you.

Jim: And to hear that story and to see, Oh, the, the archetype for feminine burnout looks like this, it's. got a different story and some details to what masculine burnout might look like. And ultimately, we get the exact same experience. Yeah. Which is disconnected, isolated, our needs aren't being met and exhausted, all of it.

Jim: And, and yeah, I think that pathway that you described at the end is right, is that how do we learn to take care of ourselves and then also be able to take care of each other? Yeah. Until I learned how Until I even learned what my needs were that needed to be taken care of, that was the first step for me.

Jim: I didn't even know what my needs or wants were. I remember having this moment, I was driving to a therapy session, I was stopped at a red light, and I just had this question drop down into me, that said, what do you want? And it was one of the scariest moments of my life, by far, because I had nothing. I didn't know if I wanted a grilled cheese sandwich, or enlightenment, or anything in between.

Jim: It was like I was in a black hole. What do I want? I don't know. I don't know what I want in life. That was terrifying. And I had to... I had to spend a lot of time to discover what that was and then give myself permission to say, Oh, I'm allowed to have wants. 

Monica: Allowed to have needs, allowed to have wants. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. And I think that does, in my case, connect with that provider archetype of, you know, I always put myself last in line. I would just take care of anybody else. And that's, there's a concoction going on there of people pleaser. From very early in life and then, you know, male provider role later in life got really tangled up for me to the extent that I just, I didn't take care of myself at all because I didn't, honestly, if I was, if I'm really being honest, I don't think I've ever said it this way.

Jim: I don't think I felt like I deserved it. 

Monica: So there's like, there's even like this and I don't even deserve it. 

Jim: Wow. I had never realized that until just now. 

Monica: Well, I, I also am like kind of fascinated because I always on the podcast, I'm always talking about women are trained to be pretty pleasing and polite.

Monica: And what I'm hearing is that men are taught to be providing pleasing. And I know there's another word there, another P word there that we can come up with, but just for my own, you know, satisfaction. 

Jim: I might give the S's strong, silent, and successful. 

Monica: Oh, okay. I love that. Strong, silent, and successful.

Monica: Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's perfect. It just encapsulates just that grooming, the whole way through the whole way until you get to the God of the floor, the God of the Berber carpet. And of course, this might be a segue into expansive intimacy, but It's interesting, because what I'm hearing is that first there's kind of this interior intimacy that has to happen before it's expansive.

Jim: Yeah, there's a self awareness and a self knowing and a lot of discovery that I had to go through. And I think it's true for us all. We have to. Know what that inner landscape is before we can say, okay, I'm now I'm ready to really connect because for me the one of the core pieces of intimacy is that I'm revealing myself to another person.

Jim: That's why I've been telling you for a while. I love your show because it's about revelation, right? Like we reveal ourselves to other people and that's All of us, if we don't know who we are, like me, I didn't know what I wanted, what I needed, who I was, I can't really participate in intimacy. I can try, but it'll be,

Monica: it'll be a performance.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. ow Performance at worst, diluted at best. 

Monica: Yeah. It's so true. And so knowing ourselves at this intimate level is that first step.

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Monica: What was it like? What were the things that you had to face as you began to embrace intimacy? This guiding value or principle, once you kind of got that this was required, that this was somehow a requirement of the program that you were like this, this program of enlightenment and like engaging in life in a different way, it actually is a requirement.

Jim: Yeah, if we're going to be fully expressed, it certainly is. Wow, that's such a big question. I had to face so much. And I literally just two minutes ago realized a piece that I didn't name previously, as I had to admit that I deserved it. And then so much... So much of the other work was, was shame based, revealing the parts of me that I felt shameful about, whether it's my, my spare tire, like body shame, right, or that My, the college I went to wasn't top notch or that I never really had this sparkling career with big name companies and all sorts of parts of me that I just felt like, oh, if anybody took a look at that and compared it to themselves, that's going to be shame territory for me.

Jim: There's even something kind of at the, the meta. Level for me of

Jim: I had to be okay with saying that I wanted these things that felt feminine that I wanted to be able to embrace my emotions that I wanted to seek out spirituality and spiritual connection, which to me, I think I sometimes conflate as more feminine than masculine. I don't, I'm not sure quite why I have that belief, but I had to believe that like, I could be this completely different type of person and not be cast out because I, I wanted connection ultimately.

Jim: And I thought, well, to get connection, I just need to do what these other people want and be that person that they, they think. I had this whole constructed identity of what would make me be a person who people would want to be in relationship with, and I knew I wanted those relationships, but it was so backwards.

Jim: It wasn't me saying, here's who I am. I want to be in relationship with you. I want to share all of myself. Or the relevant parts of myself with you. So it was a really, I mean, it took me, it has taken me, let me correct that, 10 years of work to go from this completely shut down, locked down, isolated, unrecognizable place to, I know what a lot of my needs and wants are and I get them met pretty regularly because I'm willing to say it and I'm willing to be messy about it and I'm willing to get it wrong and all those things.

Monica: I love what you're saying to about admitting, you know, that you wanted these things. And so, you know, I'm hearing that there's this coming back to these despicable faces that you feel like you've been successfully hiding and you're getting them. Yeah. Really ready to kind of Get naked with yourself.

Monica: There's this just to look to take the masks off of what you thought was despicable. Yeah. Whether it was the spare tire. And this brings up this whole thing about body shame that so many men have, and they're not allowed to talk about that either. 

Jim: No

Monica: That's a woman's issue. 

Jim: And if you have body shame as a guy, you're going to get shamed for having the shame.

Monica: Right. So it's like, don't forget to laugh while you do this journey because. There's no better medicine when you start actually unpacking the absurdity of it, and also allowing the tears and the grief to come, because I think there's part of the untangling in this very unbecoming process where we Recognize how much time has been spent dwelling or deflecting or defending and really, when it comes down to it, it boils down to abusing ourselves.

Jim: Yeah. Neglect and abuse. 

Monica: Yeah. In the name of. 

Jim: Yeah. For me, it was in the name of acceptance. And I remember having somebody wise say to me one day that, because I had this huge fear of rejection and, and I still have some fear of rejection. It's less than it used to be. And I remember this guy saying to me, if you go into a thesaurus and look up rejection, you'll find that the opposite is acceptance and you have control over that.

Jim: And I saw it. Wait. Wait, wait a minute. Are you trying to trick me? I could just accept myself. Yeah. And not have to seek out that acceptance, whether it's in the job title or the salary or the car or the anything else. I can just accept myself and start there. And what would that be like? 

Monica: I'm so curious because of course I know about your background, but when you have looked at those inner critics, who were the voices of those inner critics?

Monica: Were any of them yours? I mean, I know we internalize them and they become ours, but who were the voices? I mean, what would you say were the voices? Yeah. That you had internalized about manhood. Like I'm hearing that your stepfather might have been in there. 

Jim: Yeah, a little bit. It's actually really interesting to me.

Jim: The first person that comes up for me is actually my mom. Yeah. My mom was the voice of, of the A plus students. That's, that's my, my primary inner critic who, who believes that, you know, his job is to get an A plus on the paper before it's been handed out. Yeah. And that was born from what was going on in my mom's life at at a young age for me where things were really chaotic Now like the back quick backstory on that is she was a closet lesbian who had two kids by the age of 20 and was divorced by 22 raising them on her own didn't come out until she was in her early 50s.

Jim: Wow. Yeah She had lots of masks on right and it was chaotic and fragile and my sister and her had a very Caustic kind of relationship and so I was kind of the safe one in the house for everybody and I was the the good kid who did it right. I was the golden child. And so in that family constellation, that small constellation, I developed this belief that became this really loud inner critic voice that said, do it right.

Jim: Follow the rules. Don't get in trouble. And everybody else will be okay, because if they're okay, then you're okay. Because that's how it felt. I mean, at those ages, there was so much chaos on a day to day basis. I was constantly scanning the environment for when the next blow up was going to be, because it was so scary to me.

Jim: It was like, who's the next person who's going to leave? If I could just be good enough and not make any trouble and help out enough, then everybody's going to be okay and they're going to be there for me. Mm hmm.

Monica: Do you find that every man you work with has their version of this? 

Jim: Yeah, I think they do. I think it's, you know, obviously the details are going to be different because of life circumstance. And I think that there are so many men out there whose belief is that If I can just do it right, then everybody's going to be okay with me.

Jim: And then I'll have enough. 

Monica: So from that kind of, you know, place, I mean, not only do we have female listeners, but I've been finding more and more men are listening. Thank you, Jim. You know, so I have my next questions are like, How can women help men and also for the male listeners, what might be a few ways that they can begin to

Monica: help themselves, but However you want to address that, because I want to make sure I come at it from both those places, but I want, I also am really like, it's occurring to me that so many women that I know, know this about the men in their lives. And I feel like so many women want the men in their lives to get help.

Monica: And yet. We tend to do the opposite, meaning we, I think we oftentimes make the suggestion and they're running in the other direction, right? They're like, no, not that, anything but that. So I just get curious about it, but I'd love anywhere you want to take that because I'd love to kind of have. Some also just some practical, helpful things that we can talk about where the listener can walk away and maybe have a few ideas or applications.

Jim: I totally follow you with the, when women approach their men and men in their lives with this, it can. Send them scary in the wrong direction or the other direction. I've also had the experience that so many of the men who come to me event have ended up coming because of a woman, whether it's a woman podcaster has a show that they've listened to or a significant other or a sister who've said, Hey, here's a resource for you.

Jim: So there are a lot of women who I think are doing a wonderful job of helping the men in their lives by showing compassion, I think sharing a little bit of like what their own struggle is and modeling that I've run into this too. I know how hard it is for you. I care for you and it doesn't make you weak to go do this.

Jim: I think men need to hear that even if we don't think they need to hear it. They do because anything that has help in it says that you haven't been able to handle it. And we know it's BS, right? We need help all the time. But for some reason, when it comes to that deeply personal stuff, personal development, spiritual development and growth, I think there's this rub for guys that they think, well, I should just be able to handle that.

Jim: I don't even need that. Emotions don't matter. I'm fine. I have what I need. And so I think, you know, when women can Can appreciate that that's the, the barrier and then find the soft ways to go through that hard barrier and, and reflecting like, you know, you sharing your story of what it was like for you when you were dealing with burnout, like I could feel that in my heart, I was so sad for you to think about like this time in your life where you felt that way.

Jim: I think anytime we can invoke empathy in those conversations. I guess the other thing that comes up for me when I think about. What women can do to help is I think men, so many men were conditioned to believe that we should just figure it out. And so when somebody prescribes something to us, you should do this or here's something that I want you to do.

Jim: I think it, there's this initial prickliness or defensiveness around it. And so finding ways to make it more of an invitation, I don't have a great answer for exactly how to do that, but just the mindset of coming into it with. You know, it's it's lovingly offered. It's not that I think you need to do this I think that can can set a lot of folks off men or women.

Jim: Yeah. 

Monica: Yeah, it's true and then the other is just for men listening is like so I think here there's an invitation in terms of Understanding if there's these symptoms of burnout It's like what has a guy? listen in a way that You You know, is like There's so much more here, like there's so much across this bridge of

Monica: this messy bridge, right? We'll just bring the mess in because it's true of allowing yourself to maybe recognize that you're burnt out and are tired of kind of holding it all together. And what has changed for you, Jim? What was life then? And what is it now? And why? Would any guy want to go through what you've gone through?

Monica: Why? 

Jim: I had a third man in my life, all three of them are, are, are friends, acquaintances. I learned this two days ago that in January, he went to the emergency room with cardiac issues, cardiac symptoms because of his stress. So one of the ways that, that I unfortunately think men get this message is by hearing some things that are super scary.

Jim: Like, life threatening. The rates of suicide, depression, addiction, uh, heart disease, like, these are all things that are impacted by burnout and other stress conditions. And so if, if we want to be logical for a minute, and we think, okay, the male archetype is I'm going to be the provider and the protector role.

Jim: Well, if you die at 53 of a heart attack, how well are you providing for the people you care about? That's That's not the answer, right? If we then drop down and we talk about what does it feel like or what is, what is our intuitive gut tell us, I ask my clients to tune into their intuitive gut to say, you know, what do you just know without thinking is off?

Jim: And what needs to change. And if we get into the heart and we get into the feeling part of it, if I rewind to the tape back to face down on that Berber carpeting, sobbing uncontrollably, that felt horrible in all sorts of ways, like that actual moment of feeling so out of control that all this emotional wave had crested, because I tried to hold it down for so long and I just could not even control my body and thinking like, What's happening to me, to today, where I finally said, okay, I'm going to start finding the safe places to get this out, and that was in recovery work, it was in men's groups, it's actually in improv comedy troupes that I've been a part of over the years, all these places where I get to fully show up as myself, all the parts, I don't carry that stress anymore.

Jim: I have this life that I just, I literally can't believe. I have impact in the work that I do. I have amazing relationships with three teenage kids who, who love me dearly. I have an amazing group of friends and fun hobbies. I've got a life partner who I've never had a more loving relationship in my life.

Jim: My work life is way better than it ever has been. I'm making more money than I was when I was doing the things that I thought I was supposed to do to make money. You know, they say you can't have it all. I'm like, well, what else is there right now? Like I'm feeling pretty fulfilled with by taking a ton of risks to put myself, my real self out there, not put myself out there with a bunch of business guards to people to network.

Jim: Right. But like to actually put myself out there. 

Monica: . Your real self. I love that you said that because it's, that is the, that is this.

Monica: Place where what is it that we think we're hiding? And then I'm making up based on the fact that you said you're doing improv, like that, that was hiding all those years that you're doing improv comedy now. And that was hiding all those years that you have that ability to kind of just, what else was hiding?

Jim: Yeah, I mean, that, that was certain. I mean, I get up on a stage every month in front of a live audience with a, uh, with my troop and we make people laugh and it's fantastic. It's so much fun. And I think lots of fun was hiding. But, you know, there were, there were parts of me. That were really caring and kind, that I knew were deeply within me, they're just core parts of me, that I didn't feel like I could let out, like, I couldn't tell my friends that I loved them.

Jim: Yeah. Male or female, right? And I tell my friends regularly now, I love you. Ah. Because I want them to know that, I want them to hear those words. I went through, uh, the first 25 years of my life, approximately, without, I don't know if I ever heard those words. My family never used those words. We never said, I love you to each other.

Jim: And when I finally decided, like, I'm going to start using that language with my mom at first, I was like, Oh, wow, that's different. And now it's like, it's just part of my language that was hiding for so long. 

Monica: And I love hearing that men and witnessing men doing that. I actually, I was scrolling on social media a little bit earlier and I stopped on this actor.

Monica: I can't remember his name, but he's an older gentleman. And he's, he says, I love going to Scotland because no matter who you are. Man or woman, if you get in a cab, and man or woman, the cab driver will always say, and where are we going, love? Right? So it doesn't, it didn't matter if it was two men. So where are we going, love?

Monica: He's like, you just always get the love question mark at the end. It's like, what if we all just treated each other in that way? What are we doing together today, love? What are we talking about today, love? It's just like this. We all crave it. We crave it. It's this, and it, there's that assumed intimacy, I think that we all crave, I think, right?

Monica: I can, I can say it from, from here. It's like, I certainly love people assuming that they can be that way with me. Because for me, it's this place of pride that people feel comfortable in my presence that I can bring out the silly and the goofy and the deep and the deep all at the same time, right? So it becomes this question of what would be possible if I were there?

Monica: Able to reveal my true self as a man. 

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's freedom in, in a word that, that we get to be free of all of these, these confining beliefs that have kept us following the herd. I mean, whatever metaphor you want to use. I mean, I get to be myself. And it's, I remarked to somebody recently, I work less than I ever did, and I get way more done.

Jim: And it's not hard. I mean, I'm doing like deep work with people, but I'm just doing it authentically. I don't have to make up anything anymore. There's no crying. The only time I make stuff up is on stage. Right. 

Monica: And then it's fun. But I know what you mean. It's like, Oh my God, the effort to just wear the right mask and, and make sure that you're keeping up appearances and.

Monica: Oh, God, you know, when you wear one mask with one person and one mask with the other, then you have to frigging remember what.

Monica: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. 

Jim: It's a little easier to just be myself. 

Monica: So much easier. So as we kind of come to a close on this interview, which I've loved so much. 

Jim: Me too. 

Monica: I would love to ask you what question haven't I asked that you think our audience might benefit from?

Jim: Well, I already know my answer. So the question is, um, what is it that That defines a tough guy now in this new world. And to me, the ultimate tough guy move is to take the risk to really be yourself and to seek out intimacy, to say, I'm here for our relationship and to do that in all areas of life. We can do that at work with colleagues in appropriate ways.

Jim: We can do that, hopefully, please, with our romantic partners, with our kids and with our family members and our friends. And we're told to hold all this stuff in. Well, if that's what we've been doing for such a long time, and that's the model, just stand there, take it on the chin. Well, that's not tough anymore.

Jim: The tough guy move is to actually reveal yourself, to actually go be intimate and see what that's like. And not worry about what people are going to say, because you're tough enough to handle it. Right. 

Monica: It kind of comes right back, kind of comes right back in this ironic way. Yeah. Of like, you're tough enough to handle it.

Monica: So just be who you are.. 

Jim: That's the toughest thing to do sometimes. 

Monica: And then in that big reveal, does that become kind of what you coin and call expansive intimacy? 

Jim: It's a huge part of it. It's, it's the central part of it. Yeah, is if I show up in my relationships and I reveal myself and I'm willing to be reciprocal in now, like I'm willing to receive you equally as much as I'm offering myself to you, then I'm creating this relationship now where we're strongly bonded.

Jim: And again, like the expansive part of that is that we think of intimacy in this narrow slice. It's this wink, wink, nudge, nudge. It's about sex. Transcribed Right. And yes, it is. And no, it's not right. It's, it's about sex and so much more. And so it's, it's curling up with your kid and having them read a book in your lap.

Jim: If you've got a kid that age, that's physical intimacy. It work. I can have intimacy with a colleague by. Just sitting with them in a difficult moment and being present to them, dealing with something, there's all of these different ways we can utilize intimacy so we can therefore use them in all these relationships.

Jim: And the more we do it, we get to drop the masks. We just get to be our intimate selves. And we have to sign up for some work too because if we're gonna truly be intimate, we're an open channel. It's, it's not just I get to dump all my stuff on you. It's like, I'm there for all of yours as well. We're doing this together.

Monica: Yeah. And I just, I love too that as you're speaking, you can feel the heaviness of the, the masked self and then. The more you kind of come into this, just revealing the true self, there's so much energy there. There's so much currency. There's so much availability. There's so much flexibility. There's so much levity.

Monica: There's so much humor. It's just like goes also from this stagnant, stifled, uh, Stingy place to this very kind of generative, generous and expansive place. Yeah. And I don't know how to talk about it for so long. Yeah. I know. Right. But here it is. I mean, I think that. I truly believe that the people who listen to this podcast are kind of guided because that's the other thing that I think happens when we're ready.

Monica: I love the expression, when the student is ready, the teacher disappear or appears. But I also love the expression when the student is ready, the teacher disappears, right? Because that there are these. Moments where we surrender to whatever the greater power is, where we surrender. And sometimes that looks like a face plant on the Berber carpet, but it's a prayer Yes, that I believe gets answered.

Monica: I believe that if we're true in that prayer, that it doesn't have to be look a certain way, but often it does. The one, you know, where we out of the floor, where we cry out for help and then we're guided somewhere to hear something, or we just happen to be in the presence of, or it's a coincidence. And of course I don't believe in that.

Monica: I believe that we are always being guided to whatever is wanting to be revealed next. And maybe it's you. Yeah. So thank you so much for this incredible conversation. For my listeners. I just want to again, point out that Jim's book is called expansive intimacy, how tough guys defeat burnout, tough guys in parentheses.

Monica: And of course, you know, um, You can just order one for yourself and just maybe just plant it on your partner's nightstand or for you guys who are listening, who want to, you know, buy yourself a copy, please do, you know, I'd love, I mean, more. Goodness to be revealed in that book, because in it, Jim shares personal stories, and there's so much more that we didn't get a chance to kind of cover that I think so many men would find incredibly helpful and women, too.

Monica: There's a lot of parallels that I see here, and I love that we've had this conversation because again, I've had many revelations today, Jim, about. Just how we contend. I think so many of us are so in this place where we've been so angry, you know, as women, so angry at men. Yeah. And I think that there's like, some of that anger is, is very Um, healthy and warranted, and then there, but there are ways that we can feel like we're so separate and that our journeys are so vastly different.

Monica: And yet I feel like there are many, many points where it is revealed just how similar. It's just different disguises. And I often say that this system of patriarchy, that it is a system and it serves neither men or women. And that as these systems break down, if we're lucky, we are also breaking down. And within every breakdown is the seed of a breakthrough.

Monica: So I would love to just hear any final thoughts you have, Jim, and then we can wrap. , 

Jim: Thank you, Monica. I had revelations today as well, like really noticing that I had this story that I didn't deserve to move into a life outside of the system, if you will, that that patriarchal system that has been designed in in man's image, if you will, has been so harmful to so many men, and as I tried to get to the top of the ladder, which is where I was told to go, it just kept getting harder and worse for me, and that There are completely different ways.

Jim: And for me, it was a breakout, a breakdown to get to, I like to think of it as a breakout because that's a great song by the Foo Fighters and, and that it is, it's, it's available to us. We have to take risks. We have to be willing to go through the uncomfortable. And on the other side of it is something you just can't even imagine.

Jim: Yeah. How beautiful it is. 

Monica: You really just can't even imagine because anything I imagined for myself is so much better than what I could have imagined. Right. It's just like amazing. Well, thank you. Thank you again. And for our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Jim's links in the show notes. And until next time, more to be revealed.

Monica: We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.