86 Sarah Wilson

Monica: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the revelation podcast today. 

I'm with guest Sarah Durham, Sarah Durham Wilson is the mother of the archetypical, maiden to mother movement. She midwives women from the wounded patriarch, glazed feminine across the bridge to the archetypical mother or mature feminine before her service to the goddess. She was a rock journalist in New York city, beginning with an internship at rolling stone and culminating as an editor at interview magazine.

Her soul work began with a witch awakening in 2011, which evolved into priestess work in 2015, and then into building the bridge from the immature to the mature feminine, which involves exercising poison. Part patriarchal, patterning and resurrecting the ancient healing ways of feminine wisdom. She's an Avalonian wisdom keeper solo mother to a little girl, and currently working on a maiden to mother book for sounds true.

She lives on Martha's vineyard. Welcome Sarah. 

Sarah: [00:01:37] Hi, I have to just get right into it as we do.

Sarah: [00:01:47] Because last night we did a death ceremony under the full moon, and it was such a privilege. The crone held space. She had sat with Marion for 20 years, and, uh, passed the lineage onto me. And this, and it was so beautiful. Um, and I gave the maiden to mother work to the fire. 

Monica: [00:02:09] Wow. 

Sarah: [00:02:11] And I'm very much naked now. You know, I did it for five years. I built it, but any good mother knows what you have to do with your children. Right. You can't keep them forever. They're the world's now, you know, I'll always be there.

I'll always love them.

Um, but yeah, I I'm in a completely different place now because of the maiden to mother work. 

Monica: [00:02:39] Exactly. What I'm hearing is that, you know, that was a completion and this is a new beginning. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so this opens up, Hey, what do you want to talk about too? 

Sarah: [00:02:52] Uh, well, my new work. 

Monica: [00:02:53] Yeah. Let's do it 

Sarah: [00:02:55] Heartbreak as a Rite of passage that, uh, grief,

Monica: [00:02:59] I am here for that, Sarah.

Sarah: [00:03:03] I mean, I'm, you know, I can talk about anything you want to talk about, but that's where I am now is that we're in a culture that doesn't honor life. So nor does it on her death. And we're in a culture that doesn't honor love and doesn't really know what it is. There's, you know, I owe like, That all of that understanding the bell hooks that how can you learn love in a patriarchal household?

The patriarchy is the opposite of love. Patriarchal love is abuse and control. And so, you know, just like, you know, you're born into a racist culture and you have to. Relearn what it is to be human and exercise the racism from you, I'm relearning, or, you know, we're burning to misogynistic culture. We're burning to a mattress Siddle culture, and we have to look at all the parts in us.

And I was born into a very patriarchal household with a patriarchal mother and a patriarchal eyes. Father and love was not in the house. So I had had to learn it and because our culture doesn't honor love when love dies, whereas hold get it to get over someone, get under someone, go out, drink, move on, but never mourn that never go through the gates.
Monica: [00:04:22] Right. Never sink into the ache. 
Sarah: [00:04:26] Yep. Never died to it so you can be reborn from it, but then women keep falling back into the relationships with the same men in different skins. Because they never processed the true depth of the love and didn't take what was good and leave the rest. Didn't yeah, weren't reborn from it.

I mean, I'm still in the bones of this new book about it, but that was, you know, I woke up with, uh, a third man. That was exactly like the three before him. And if I had done the work after the first one, I wouldn't have been in bed with the last, you know, but I just wanted the first one back. I know. And so I kept finding him again, but it didn't work for a reason.

So I'm, I'm in the, and what it did is this last one, you know, when a, when a man rejects you or leaves you, it feels like a death and it is, it feels like it is like, I when my, the first man and the love of my life left me. So my, yeah, my new work is love. My new work is I'm addicted to learning about mature relational skills and how to really be in love.

You know, everyone wants to be in love, but like how do you really be in it and operate as love in love and. So when the love of my life left me, I had all this unprocessed death from my mother who died at 17. I had all this unprocessed grief. I was handed a Xanax at the funeral instead of feel it cry more and whale told him there was a timeline on it, you know?

And there's no real timeline for grief. Grief is its own beast. It's not linear. It is anybody who's ever really felt real grief knows what I'm talking about. It. You never see it coming. You think you're well, and then you think you're okay and then it rocks you, you know? 
Monica: [00:06:27] Yeah. Yeah. 
Sarah: [00:06:29] And it's, it's also so beautiful because to grieve means you've loved, um, just starting Francis Weller, you know, learning from him about grief, but he talks about the first gate of grief. Is that. Everyone and everything you love, you will lose. And that orients us differently. In our relationships. 
Monica: [00:06:50] It sure does.
Sarah: [00:06:51] Especially with grief gives you or death gives you all these beautiful ways to love people. Like you can close your eyes and imagine that somebody you love has already died and you can feel that devastation and the sorrow and the regrets that come up too.

Well, you can open your eyes and see they're still there and it changes how you relate to them. 
Monica: [00:07:19] There's so much permission and allowing, as you're speaking about the culture, right. I always kind of point to the fact that we're taught to live on the surface of life. 
Sarah: [00:07:29] Yes. 
Monica: [00:07:30] You know, and those shallows are. Like, I always say, like, I can't breathe there. You know, like my soul lungs for the depth and the dark. And that's not to say that I don't love the light, but I have to know the dark. It's like what you just said. It's like grief and gratitude. Can. Both be in this space that in order sometimes for us to really feel the gratitude, we have to first know the grief.
Sarah: [00:07:59] Yes. 
Monica: [00:07:59] And it's just such a powerful medicine that gives us that kind of constant flow back and forth into that death and rebirth. 
Sarah: [00:08:08] Yeah. Is trained to only want the light to only want the good days to only want the positive. And when, and when you do that, it's so unnatural. You look outside of the season, something's always dying while something's always birthing.

And we're the same way, you know, a big part of what I'm going through. I got struck by this. I w I'm being told to go back to just finish the story of, so when I got into a relationship with a man, I really deeply loved the only man I've ever loved. And that's been really interesting, like why I'm writing this book about all the men I've ever been with.

And the one I loved was before all this talk about healthy, masculine, safe, masculine, he was. And after him, that's when the wounding of my maiden really began when I, he left. And then I had this unprocessed grief of my mother. Um, and that's when I had the, it was in the darkest time. It was the darkest time of my life.

And he broke my heart so badly. But instead of tending to that, I just shut my heart away. And I started going for these, what we call my old type is apex predatures. These six, three weapons, like massive, you know, they hated their mothers. They're angry. They're narcissistic. One was sociopathic, you know? Um, and it was my wounded maidens taste, like wanted to be destroyed.

She wanted, it was like full shadow, love, drama, and darkness and danger. And before them, uh, it was the healthy masculine, but yeah. Only something that real could break your heart, all these other. Dramatic lifetime movie things in it, you know, and as far as like, you know, I'll always work with the Maiden's mother journey and the, you know, the immature feminine and the mature feminine.

So I had come into mother in so many ways, but I was still letting my wounded maiden choose men. Not. Right. So what does the mother need? We could call it a king, but the safe, healthy, protective, not the predatory. Right. And you know, so she needs someone. So then that's like, that's a real level up. And then doing the work of what did work.

All these guys didn't work, what worked the safe, healthy, masculine, you know? Um, and so the tear and that is that work. There's fear in that too. Of course, it's easy to lose, man. When you know it, he didn't know the real, you, he never saw your heart. It's easier, you know, the Eagle goes through a ton of shit, but what were you saying about, we were talking about something before that, that I was just finishing that story.

Monica: [00:11:00] Well, what it, what it brought up for me, 
Sarah: [00:11:02] I remembered. So, so this last man. He, when he, when we broke up, it ripped the bandaid off of like the volcano, a grease my body. 
Monica: [00:11:19] Yes. 
Sarah: [00:11:20] And I couldn't quite. Grok what it all meant, but I knew my work was beginning because the wound was as big as the mother wound and also deeply related of course, to that.

Cause everything is, everything goes back to the mother, everything, everything in the world, because back to the, but that I've been in this deep death initiation sense. And it's like, even like yesterday we found out my cat's gone. Like, you know, in my week, before two weeks before. Our family dog. We had to put my family dog down.

And my dad, I was burying her with my dad on my grandmother's land. And my dad had had this dog for 13 years and he's very like growing up, we called it from Dr. Doolittle. Like he D he, he speaks to animals. He's, that's where his, his feminine comes through in his relationship to the earth and animals. Not so much as emotion.
Monica: [00:12:13] Right, right. 
Sarah: [00:12:14] But, uh, so he's trembling he is 74. Digging this little grave. Um, and he starts to tell me a story. I was all ears. Cause he doesn't tell me stories. He was at Yale in the sixties or late sixties, early seventies. And his college professor had been, had buried his brother in world war II was talking at his college professor and, and back then, like the stoic masculine, it was like, well, he.
Died for a good cause. So no grieving allowed, uh, this is a good thing. He served his country. This is how he would have wanted to die, you know, like, and he was like a twenty-five year old kid. And so the college professor had told this story of, I buried my brother 10 years ago and I was fine. I was fine.

And then there's a cat, you know, on the family farm that got injured and they put it, you know, they killed it or was something, you know, back also how these treat animals, like it's just a cat and he was tossing this cat over these railroad tracks, you know, the way they did back then. And his whole body shattered open and he fell to his knees cause of the death of the cat ripped the wound open up, the brother was beside himself for weeks.
Monica: [00:13:35] Yep. Yeah. 
Sarah: [00:13:36] Cause it was waiting. It was waiting. Oh, he, it wasn't about Nick. Wasn't about that. It was about the grief. Grief was like anything like I'm, I'm so boiled and boiling under the surface. Anything will rip me open. Yes. And that's what this last mandid. And I am completely stopped in my tracks doing all the, the article archeological digs, you know, and there's so many ghosts in there and stories that I never looked at and lessons and wisdom and medicine in this process, I would never have chosen it.
It shows me as all our work does, but it's 
Monica: [00:14:22] time. It is this time. And it's so beautiful, Sarah. Like, I, I know that I had, for some reason, right? Like we spoke literally initially the day after this event has had to happen yet. And you were kind of like heading into a descent, I think. 
Sarah: [00:14:38] Yeah. Yes. I was into, you know, also the grief stages, really work  in a breakup.
So I was in denial. And going into bargaining. Yeah, for 
Monica: [00:14:48] sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I love the imagery too, of the ghosts because I have such a similar experience and you know, that portal into all of those unexamined, unwitnessed, unexplored stories that hold those ghosts, that sit there, waiting for us to witness and acknowledge and bless them so that they can actually leave us so they can stop haunting us.

But it, it takes a tremendous amount of courage to just sit in that fire, sit in that ache, sit in that pain and just be with it, just witness it. And this is where, you know, the inner mother in me started to awaken where I had never had a mother. that could model that for me, it was starting to understand what true self love was in that moment.

Cause we go back to kind of this idea of love and our sickness in the patriarchy is that we call it love and it's not love. True love is when we allow that it all gets to belong here. And it's just this understanding that we get to love ourselves and others warts and all. 
Sarah: [00:15:58] Yeah. I had a psychic once on the phone, say it was one of those psychics with like no bedside manner. And like, you know, it's just like, if you're going to be telling me like terribly hard truths, can I have some honey with that? Nope. Okay.
Like straight, no chaser.
Monica: [00:16:19] No. Yeah, no spoonful of sugar here. 
Sarah: [00:16:22] Yeah. No, no mothering, no one. And I was talking to her about, as I've done for 13 years, cause I never processed my ex fiance. I did in the Maiden to mother books. Um, but it's really going down in this new. Really going down. 
Monica: [00:16:40] I'm sure it's no accident. Yeah. After the maiden, the 


Sarah: [00:16:43] mother book, I was like, I'm all set with writing about you. Like don't worry. And then like, you know, as soon as the stuff with Nick, the only way out was through this, obviously like Sue pen as sword in hand, fucking what the fuck is it? 

You know, every morning for two weeks, I haven't done it since.

Since my awakening. 11 years ago, I added my old pen name was do it girl. And I would just write every morning to like breathe. Yes. And so it was, it reminded me of like this movie quills with Kate Winslet and I forget, but it's about the Marquis decide and be like, Penn and prison, he'll just cut himself for blood and write on the walls with his fingers.

Like I would have done that to, right. 


Monica: [00:17:34] Yes. You know, that, that way to know yourself, that way to kind of really go into it. 


Sarah: [00:17:40] Oh, great. To hear yourself way to fucking its self surgery. It's like tumors, tumors, tumors. And so that's how I was when Nick left and there was a part of me that was like literally writing to survive.

Because it wasn't about Nick. It was like, how did this fucking happen again? No coach was going to help me. No book, no, nobody on fucking Instagram. I, you know, that's the Maiden, to mother work. There's nobody. It's me and the sword and my darkness


Monica: [00:18:17] It's so great that you're saying this. Cause I was just writing about this. It's like there's no handsome prince coming to rescue. There's no rescue insight. It's like you're. The buck stops here. 


Sarah: [00:18:28] So you're coming exactly. 


Monica: [00:18:30] Your coming to rescue you. 


Sarah: [00:18:34] Yeah, no, I'm coming to save me. I'm the I'm the night. I'm also that's right? Yeah. 


Monica: [00:18:43] And it's such a, and that for me, I don't know if you've seen the logo, but it's re it's a butterfly, but it's really two fleet faces looking at each other.

So when you really look at it, like that was my experience of finally coming face to face with my safe. Yeah, right. And that was me, of course. And understanding, you know, finally it was like, yeah. Oh, 


Sarah: [00:19:09] that's, that's the grace in grief. That's the grace in grief. Yeah. And their bed mates, you know, if you have, if you agree, if you that's the thing, we're so afraid of grief.

If you go there, you'll meet grace as well. And you're also searching for that. We're always searching for grace and it finds us when we do the work. And yeah, there were two weeks of mornings where I put Ava in front of doc McStuffins. I would be like, mommy has to do this. I love you. Thank you for letting me do this.

And she got it. Like, she'd be at my feet and I'd be standing up at this old desk at our grandmother's land where I was with no internet for three weeks. Thank goddess. Nothing to distract me from the pain, which, you know, Instagram is the first thing, you know, or. Buying pants on Poshmark or who is who's Kim Kardashian dating now, right?


Monica: [00:20:04] Like all the ways that we can just medicate 


Sarah: [00:20:09] Anesthetize. And I would stand at this desk and I sent this woman from New York who just happened. No accident, you know, as like, I need help because I, I can't send them via email. I don't have email. I'm like, I just scrawling and it felt so good when I was angry, you know, it was just like, it was.

It was like a Potter like that tangible writing it wasn't oh yeah. It was like, I could feel it myself creating it, you know? And I was like, what is happening? I'm writing about grief. I'm writing about being fucked. Like someone's fracking the earth. You know, like nerve fracking, they're not a mother lover, they're a mother fucker, you know? Yes. Oh, he's fucking, you know, domestic terrorists in my bed.

And like just, I was like, how can I be a woman of the goddess and a woman of the earth? Three abusive men in a row, you know, that hated their mothers and hated women. And Jewish is doing the work what's mine. What's mine. What's mine. This is not an accident. There's three in a row. It's Carolyn Casey, the sunset effect.

There's a pattern here and it's glaring. So I'm going to sit and watch it go. Like, I am done 


Monica: [00:21:32] The whole sunset


Sarah: [00:21:34] Pattern. I had to see the pattern or else I could say it was coincidence that, you know, it was, and I just, and then one day I came and it was like, I could take a break, but I had all of that pain is in there.

So there's this one day I was like, I need someone's help. And I've gotten good in mother. Yeah. You know, you get to the place where you asking for help becomes like breathing. Otherwise you will, but you know, you learn and there's such reciprocity because when you ask someone to give and they give, then they get to give and then, then you get to give back to them and this beautiful.

You know, mother ecosystem that just like nature, all depends on each other. 


Monica: [00:22:16] Totally.


Sarah: [00:22:17] A lot of the maiden, you know, we're very solitary pushing up. It's about all, about us pushing up for that dark earth. Totally have the Baton. But when you open into mother, you are part of the, you know, you're a part of the ecosystem.

Like you. The bee comes the pollen and spreads your femininity, you know, your feminine energy around and like you are part of everything, but then made in. You're not, but that's why the relational work and mother is so urgent, how to relate is just in love. And it's that. Also it's that village consciousness that's needed so badly.

It's Joanna Macy. One of our great elders talks about how the only hope for our humanity and our our civilization, the earth itself is if not even the earth, she'll be fine. I hope without us, but if we are to survive this it's to come back and to community, and we know that deeply, we all long for it.

And I'm actually in it this summer. Everything I could have wanted. It is a shattering of the ego. It is the shattering of the isolation. It is being just part of it. You know, part of community being back in communion, it's a reunion with like, we're all wonderful. Ava  has a wolfpack, you know, I'm a single mother.

So for that, it's like, but so people do all these, you know, intentional communities and something like 60. To 70% of them combust in the first three years because of the isolationists patriarchal consciousness, right? Every man or woman for herself, no one knows how to relate. No maturely. They don't have, uh, you know, 


Monica: [00:23:57] Relational skills, 


Sarah: [00:23:58] No relational skills, no conflict skills, no communication skills. They don't know how to share. They hoard. They, you know, And so it's, it's a big piece of the mother work for me is the relational skills, because we need the village again, right. To survive. Right. And so before we go back into the village, we have to have practiced the village consciousness, 


Monica: [00:24:22] So true 


Sarah: [00:24:23] Something. Three years now, mostly virtually because of the COVID isolated us even more. But I had these women friends, I call I chose three, three years ago and said, I'm going to practice mature relating which this wonderful Chrome last night, just the term safe sisterhood, I'm going to practice safe. Sisterhood of the wounded maiden, the distrust. Right? 


Monica: [00:24:48] All of the ways that we were raised to socialize. 

Sarah: [00:24:52] So I've been practicing for three years and now I'm in it and the practice is paying off. 


Monica: [00:24:58] It's such a beautiful thing. Isn't it? When you start to really recognize, and it's also what you bringing up for me is again, I say like say yes to the mess, like all that. Because there's this way, too, that like those messy co-existing things, it's like when we really get that, it all gets to belong there. And also start to understand how to own and clean up our own messes. So we're not projecting or gaslighting or like where we can actually practice that transparency. 


Sarah: [00:25:27] You brought up something really interesting. The gas lighting, you know, this is a narcissistic culture. Uh, which is a big reason I'm off social media. Like I think people are prone to that because our culture has said success is basically being a narcissist, like. Thousands millions of pictures of you, millions of likes. It's all about you. It's your brand.

You know, you know, you have to be more important than everyone to, to be successful. And when I am not mothering myself, when my wound had made in is going unattended to unloved, unseen, unheard, she will hijack and use social media for the validation and approval. 
Monica: [00:26:12] Yep. 
Sarah: [00:26:13] And I will be like, why is my nervous system so fucked up? Why am I so tripped up? Why am I so reactive? Why am I so insecure? And it's because I am looking for it on the outside unconsciously. Yes. So there's always, and then the people are always going to be conditional. And then I hooked into the conditional love of strangers. Yes. And that's where the narcissism can, you know, can can brew even with even you're like, I'm a good person, blah, blah, blah.

But, and so when you're mothering her, I love you. I see you. You don't need anybody else to tell you that you are perfect as you are. You need not do anything. Dance, perform the scene. Anything for my love, then. You know, the, so that split I had between the persona and the person can feel. Yes. Great. And so that's also where I am is what pieces of myself as a leader are still patriarchal.
And for me, the whole social media thing is it's patriarchal. Yes. I know that we met through it and there's ways to use it. So it doesn't use you and I'm still in that school to do that.
Monica: [00:27:27] Me too. I think, you know, I think anybody who is consciously doing this work is struggling to decolonize the way that we.
Participate in the world. 
Sarah: [00:27:38] Absolutely. 
Monica: [00:27:39] You know, it's, it's no joke, right? It's really like when I talk about the trance or we talk about the matrix or the, like, these are, what we're talking about is kind of the disentanglement of the behavior and the survival mechanisms that are so hardwired into kind of how we protect and engage.
Sarah: [00:28:01] Absolutely. So if I could give everyone community in nature, that's the quickest way out. The goddess is off grid and she's in community and she shows up where people come together. Women sit in circle, the children play together for me, that's my path to out. Getting out of two D patriarch, realizing myself for the rest of my life will be community in nature.
Monica: [00:28:26] Well, and what you're pointing to is that it is an ongoing practice. Like we have to find these ways to continue unbecoming. I love that expression because the unbecoming, you know, we're told, like it's not becoming for a lady to do these things or these things. And it's like, I'm so done with that. Yeah.
And I want to go back to something you said too, because I loved it so much. You talked about. The invalidation and rejection out there from these past, like in this past relationship that, that became this way. And, and what, one of my biggest things was kind of recognizing that on top of the invalidation, the abandonment, the rejection in the presence of my full self-expression like me.
When I took off the lid of who I really was and dared to show it that that somehow revealed then how I was unacceptable. I was not enough or I was too much. And the biggest thing for me was that layer deeper, which was on top of the invalidation and rejection. Out there was the invalidation and rejection of myself to myself and then the rewounding and the re-abandoning of myself every time that would happen in my life until I got into that chasms.
And in my case, it was like nine months in bed in a deep, dark depression, into a descent where I just find them. Was able to like, see, and we talk about going back, going out in nature. And for me that's about like getting still getting quiet, getting into the rhythms of the great goddess to understand how this all works and how to come back home to myself.
Yeah. And how to take that armoring off of my heart and actually use it as the doorway back home to myself. 
Sarah: [00:30:29] Yeah. So for me that, you know, the, the abandonedment of my self, I mean, I was just writing about the, uh, just to, to finish. Like I, I got, I, I went to the public library and was told, okay, you can, as far as like the pages of this book, I was writing.
Okay. You can post on Instagram just to ask for someone to. Be able to text them these pictures of the writing and they can transcribe them. And I'm like, who's going to do that for free. Like right now, like my, my latest program was at whenever I need to go to my, what, my mentor calls my, my bleeding edge and do something new and different.
I'm not gonna like this. Isn't gonna, you know, it's not, it's not gonna make what. Well-worn programs make it, we broke even for the summer, so I didn't have money to pay someone, you know, and I also refuse to just do what I've always done and the goddess won't even let me. I I posted, you know, I need somebody to transcribe these pages on grief and heartbreak, and I had it up for one minute, just a minute.
The library, like I literally got a DM. I was like, and this is a woman who I knew back in my rock and roll days in New York, she was at member blender magazine 
Monica: [00:31:47] Kind of
Sarah: [00:31:49] I mean, it was, uh, you know, it was. It was the dirtier rolling stones. They were like, they were published by the people who published Maxim.
Monica: [00:31:57] Right. 
Sarah: [00:31:58] It was like a frat boys rock and roll magazine. 
Monica: [00:32:01] Like I kind of I'm kind of seeing like Nirvana on the cover of that for some reason, but yeah. 
Sarah: [00:32:05] Yeah. I mean, Nirvana maybe would have done it. Yeah. Like they wouldn't have done, this is the old editor and me like, Hmm. They probably, they didn't do a photo shoot for them, but they still got them on the cover.
Monica: [00:32:14] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Sarah: [00:32:16] Yeah. I guess cause Kurt Cobain, like the one-time he was on the cover of rolling stone. Remember corporate magazine still suck. 
Monica: [00:32:22] Yeah. Yes, that's right. Oh my God. 
Sarah: [00:32:24] God  bless him. But I worked atRolling Stone, but that's so cool. I was pretty fucking cool. I wish I had known it back then.
Monica: [00:32:33] Well, right. Hindsight's always 2020, like I was so bad. Yeah, fucking cool.
Sarah: [00:32:42] And so she worked at blender, but a bunch of the big other magazines too. And we partied in the same circles. And then I heard that. Uh, she got cancer. When we moved out, you know, we had similar friends and, oh, Cindy's going through through breast cancer and it's pretty touch and go.
And I had connected with her at that time, but I was still in maiden. So at wound deeply wounded maiden. So I had no idea how to hold space for anybody or show up for anybody. Cause I couldn't do it for my fucking self, which is why the patriarchy wants to keep us in wooded. Meaning cause we're fucking helpless.
I, I heard she survived it and then I heard she lost her brother and her father within two years after that. So this woman saw I'm writing about grief and as a Rite of passage and she wrote. I'm supposed to, she goes, I've been on an Instagram break for four months. I was told to get on right now. I saw that this is mine. Please take it down 
Monica: [00:33:40] Hair, all standing up on my, 
Sarah: [00:33:42] Yeah. Is like, I know a thing or two, but I don't have the tools cause she knows. And um, and there's this book's full of tools, you know, uh, rituals, meditation, you know, ceremonies. And then I. I might, my assistant called me. And so I, so I went and took it off.
So it did officially been up for four minutes. My assistant called me, she goes, why is everyone writing? . About Why is everyone writing to me about some book that hadn't even told her about because I'd been, 
Monica: [00:34:12] Oh my God. Yeah. 
Sarah: [00:34:13] Writing it so hard and fast that I hadn't even said, oh, I'm writing a new book. And she said, we have 10 people in four minutes 
Monica: [00:34:22] Who are volunteering. 
Sarah: [00:34:24] I just went through this. I just lost this. I just went through a breakup. I just, you know, everyone's and I was like, tell them all. Thank you. But we have someone and now everywhere I go, they're like, Well, what are you working on? I'd say grief, heartbreak as a Rite of passage, you know, the heartbreaks of true grief that needs to be happy, ritualized and ceremonial and all this.
And everyone's like, when you, and the minute you finish it, can you send it to me? Can you send it to my sister? Can you, oh my gosh. And even made a new mother wasn't like that. I even knew I called Jamie my beloved SoundsTrue publisher. Have something. And I know we haven't put maiden the mother out. I know it comes out next winter, but I already have something. And I'm going to send it to you and she's like, okay. You know, but it's, it's urgent. Yeah. There's an urgency. 
Monica: [00:35:14] I think you're right. There is an urgency. It's like, you know how I was talking before about not being able to breathe in the shadow or at the shallows, it's like, Right. Well, that's where I can breathe.
Right? Like I can breathe in the shadows. I can breathe in the deep end. It's like, people are dying to breathe. We're starving for somebody to like speak to our grief, to help us to be, to feel seen in it. And it's that paradox of like, We can't heal it until we feel it and reveal it. Like, there's just what gets revealed, gets healed.
And people are just so in the dark when it comes to how to be with it. Yeah. And so there's, there is an urgency because I think the more people have had this time to pause, the more they're activated. And being invited to be with it. 
Sarah: [00:36:18] Yeah. Yeah. So Cindy, you know, she typed out every single page and without the instant gratification of posting about it on social media or giving like a line or two, you know, get that dopamine hit just my inner mother going.
This is really good, baby. Keep going. This is really good, baby. Keep going. My. Validation. Yeah. And so I had nobody, but Cindy had seen it. And for someone like me with such a deep mother wound that had to be seen in every room and validated and every room to just keep it so sacred and private as this is my devotion to my private life now and my private relationships.
So Jessica. Our mutual friend. Now my editor for sound's share of the book for sounds true. She's like, I need some lines about, cause we do this part about patriarchal uninitiated men. And she said, I need some examples. And I'm like, oh, I got a lot of examples in this new thing. I'm working on plenty. She goes, can I just go in there?
And I had no wifi. I couldn't. I was like, you can go look at it. I don't even know, like, I don't even know what's in there. Cause I wrote it in such a, you know, you used the word trans, but Marion Woodman actually says that we, you know, we say mantra over and over again, or prayer to go into trance, which brings transformation.
Monica: [00:37:41] Yes. Yes. 
Sarah: [00:37:43] This book was, it was translate for transformation. Right. So I was like, I don't even know what I mean. I was in a trance, but you can go in. 
Monica: [00:37:52] Yeah. And that that's the kind of trance channel, right? Whatever that is. You know, different from kind of that other way that I use the word trance. So they're 
Sarah: [00:38:03] Sleepwalking. Yeah. 
Monica: [00:38:04] Right. The sleepwalking aspect. And it's interesting, right? Like I've actually been reading the way of the rose and learning too about the rosary as. You know, and it's so interesting when you start opening the history of the rosary and the, and it goes all the way back to Isis actually, and being a portal back home to the earth. And it was never meant as a tool for Christianity. 
Sarah: [00:38:31] Right. They took all the tools of the goddess,
Monica: [00:38:33] All of the tools. And again, like these are the pieces I'm reclaiming in my own, but that actually the rosary is a way to go into that trance in a good way into the transformation because of the repetitive nature of the prayers. In the beads and the mysteries and delving in diving into the mysteries, into those just, you know, rites of passage that we all have, and looking more at the story of Jesus as an allegory, right. Versus is kind of this literal event again, that has, you know, really just. Well, I won't go there, but what I will say is that the patriarchy in general and all the ways that religion has, you know, patriarchal religions and I'm going to assert that they all are, you know, have just really, when you really start to dig deep enough, you start to realize that the very institutions that say that they're there to help you actualize your spirituality.
It's exactly the opposite. And it's again, like it's that gaslighting from the outside in, and it makes us friggin crazy. And so this reclamation, this ability, you know, again, it's like that every man for himself out there, but to actually recognize that. These archetypes, the mother, the maiden, the crown, that all of these are rights of passage from within that.
Actually I do need to do an individual journey out there so that I can co-create and, and be part of a community commune out there that that's that essential piece that keeps kind of just. Deepening in me now. And, you know, Lynne twist talks about, you know, instead of a you or me world, it's a you and me world, but first the healing has to happen here.
Sarah: [00:40:30] Yeah. You know, I left Lynn, um, 
Monica: [00:40:32] I know
Sarah: [00:40:34] Perdita thin. Yes. One half of Clark and Rita. She was the first midwife of the main new mother books. She. I sent it to her when I was just drowning and she liked patched and spider web, a lot of that book before it went to Jessica. So it's funny that I get everyone mentions that book to me because, but my mother wound got so activated with Perdita.
It was already activated from Jessica. This was all my unconscious shit had nothing to do with Jessica or Perdita, but it's like, I think it was when Marian was writing, dancing and the flames that she said. You know, halfway through, I met my death mother and I was like, I threw this book. Of course, I am going to have to heal, you know, the voice of the death mother then.
And I had to heal my mother wound halfway through the book, I was projecting it all onto them and feeling rejected and abandoned by them, by everything they could. It was so raw and tender for me, with me, you're telling me that you think I stopped everything. Jessica said she would say 10% positive, and then there'd be like, change this.
I could own my negativity bias. That kept me alive as a kid. You know, where's the danger, you know, because no one was protecting me. So I go to the, that one thing and be like, Jessica hates me, Jessica hates the book and then I sent it and I was like, I need a break from Jessica. How I'm going to Perdita Perdita is going to love me and tell me I'm perfect.
And then Perdita, and I would like hit rough patches and I would go into it. I would go into it. And then she actually did, like, I was like, can you help me with this chapter? And she had completed her contract and she pushed me out of the nest.. Like, you don't need me anymore. And I wanted to stay with her.
It was all like a fucking ride. And then I was like, the mom had abandoned me. She begged me, you know? And she's like, I'm not your mother. You are your mother, you know, the whole crux of this book for the mother. 
Monica: [00:42:37] Right. But it was like, it's, it's like right there and it's always right there. Yeah. Yeah, of course I'm, I'm sitting here kind of like in awe and also like, of course, but I just want to tell you this quick story.
Cause I had interviewed Sophie Strand, not knowing I had downloaded the book the way of the rose and obviously had no idea that you had a relationship either, but I just find again, All of these webs interconnect. And I had interviewed Sophie cause I had been following her writing on Facebook. And I'm just like, who is this young woman who writes like this?
And I think like literally three days after I had interviewed her, I was finally listening to the way of the rose in audio book. And they keep talking about their daughter, Sophie and suddenly like, Wait a minute and I'm putting that together. So of course now I'm talking to you about it and you're like, oh yeah.
So amazing. Yeah, it really is. So yeah, it's this whole, you know, journey, right? Yeah. Got it. 
Sarah: [00:43:36] Jessica, who I'm now deeply devoted to and super close to because it was my stuff, you know, and she saved my ass with this book because. It became like my friend says, every time you went to write, it felt like you were in like this medieval bloodletting chamber, like torture chamber.
I was like, there's nothing left. There's no blood left. Like I did it. And I said, And then sounds true. Needed all these extra edits to make it perfect because that's their standards and awesome. But I couldn't go on. So, and I said, Jess, you know, they said, you can have Jessica. And I was like, she'll take me back.
She'll she'll and they're like, she loves you. She loves this book. And I was like, wow. Because the wound had made an only heard her story. Right. And then I took the space in there and Jess was like, I love this book. I love you. And like, it's been. So beautiful. And it's just so healing. So anyway, Jess was like, I need some stuff about men.
And I was like, I got some stuff about man. In fact, that's my next work is men, you know? And 
Monica: [00:44:47] Yeah
Sarah: [00:44:47] She went in and she just texted me. Sarah is fucking riveting. This is fucking powerful. And that is like, so they'll play with it. I went with my intuition, intuition, intuition. This is good. This is necessary.
This is needed. And I'm not going to ask anybody for their validation. I'm going to go with this, you know, these, these, these, like I was down in the underworld, like so hardcore, but there are these little moments of light and I could see the writing on the wall that this was the way I was like, I'm trusting.
And then for Jess, I call her the best ghost writer in the world. That's what I call her for her to look at that and, and edit impeccable editor. Like Jamie, it sounds true. We'll trust Jess with anything. And for her to say that I was like, I didn't ask for that validation, but I got it after I had validated it. And that. 
Monica: [00:45:38] And that's what I'm really hearing is that you didn't abandon yourself, not for a minute. And it kind of like showed it was so solid and riveting, as she said. So like that just, there's nothing that feels better than that. 
Sarah: [00:45:54] No, you're all in love. Nothing feels better than your own. 
Monica: [00:45:57] Nothing feels better than.
It's so, so true. So Sarah here, we've been on the holy mountain. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm wondering for our listeners who, you know, may have some. Understanding of archetypes as a way to really start to remember the truth of who we are. I'm also really hearing that these archetypes have been lifesaving and essential and, and there is a part of me that believes that.
That is true for all women. There's the hero's journey. And then there's the heroine's journey and they're very different journeys. And our journey as women is a journey back to wholeness and it's, it's our own, it's a solitary journey. And so I guess my question to you is what do you want to say to our listeners about really embarking on this work in a deeper way?
In a healing way, 
Sarah: [00:47:08] The main other work or the grief work, 
Monica: [00:47:10] You can just take that, however you wish. I think both lead to each other. 
Sarah: [00:47:17] Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it all goes back to building an inner mother. It all goes back to once you can, you know, I always, I always start with this story that, you know, Eckhart Tolle being in a suicidal place.
I was in at the end of my Saturn return and is still in these times in this world. I said, last night, there's many times I want to leave, but I stay for my daughter, but I want to stay for more. But she helped, she tethered me here and he had this moment where you're sitting on a park bench and you heard him, he heard himself say I want to die.
And in that moment he realized he went. A voice saying, I want to die. That he, that he was the witness of that voice. If he could hear himself saying that there was something listening to him and for me, the most, that reason that story is so important is because when we learn to listen to our maiden, to our inner little girl, that means the mother is listening and we can learn to wait.
And discern that that's a little girl in me and I can, and as soon as we learn how to take care of her, we are, and mother, so the split between the little girl, the wounded little girl and us is very important. So that's where, like, when I talk about like healing, the split between my persona and my person, this is actually created.
Split between the wounded maiden and the mother. So learning to recognize that's my wound and Nathan and I need to, and my tools that I, that I give you in my book and my courses are how to help her, how to heal her, how to hold her, how to take care of her. And so that practice for me is coming back into that seat of mother for, for ourselves.
And then therefore for, for the community is. You know, it was given to me by the goddess. It's not mine, but it is the, it is essential for our maturity and maturity sounds like a bad word. Like growing up to Peter pan. Like I won't grow up. I don't want to maturity. Awesome. You're soft. You're. Self care. You are a steward of the earth, a capable member of the community or a self-actualized you're in your gifts.
Your, you are in your authenticity, you know, so it is there. I call it this Taylor swift line from the last record. I don't, I'm not a swift fan, but I heard this driving and she goes, I never grew up. It was getting so old. So it's not about getting old it's about ripening yes. And becoming an offering a 
Monica: [00:50:00] I love that. Yeah. I also think about it as that maturity, as, as wisdom. Right. As, as that. That moment when you are fully embodied with the divine feminine, that you are, you know, that there's a wholeness there and whatever isn't whole, there's a holistic approach to being with it. If that makes sense. Yes. 
Sarah: [00:50:29] You said something earlier about tenderness and, or being with the ache, being with the ache.
We think about what bravery is, what strength and there's all these patriarchalized versions of what that looks like. But for me, the bravest thing we can do as humans is feel our feelings.
Monica: [00:50:51] It's so true. 
Sarah: [00:50:53] And without the tools actually, you actually need tools to feel them. And that's how  disassociated we've become from our humanity is that we don't know how to.
And that's all right. And so the work is to feel and to care, tend to one's own feelings like children. What do you need? How can ask, what do you want to dance? Yeah, 
Monica: [00:51:16] I have a similar, or I can really relate to what you said about your daughter being the tether. My daughter was an, is that, that precious, uh, teacher in my life who really taught me how to love myself because.
And, and there's this way that when we have a child and even when we don't, when we have this opportunity to really love someone in such a way that we would do anything to, to show them our love, to tend to them in their time of need without fixing it, then. You know, there's, there's that moment where I finally, because that inner child work felt, so I felt so much disdain in even kind of, um, having that conversation, like it literally would make my skin crawl just as the word goddess did for so long.
And I didn't realize the inner misogyny that I had. Yeah, internalized from living in such, you know, and again, I love that quote, like, I don't think. You know, fish knew that they were exactly existing in water. It, I could not see the construct in which I had been, you know, raised and conditioned inside of.
So again, that inner child work is such a huge part of coming into the mother, as you had said. And then really recognizing that part of the work of the inner child is that work of grief. 
Sarah: [00:52:53] Letting her feel, her feelings 
Monica: [00:52:55] Letting her frig and a half her feelings, no matter how messy they are. Yeah. So this has been such a beautiful conversation.
Sarah, is there anything else that you would like to reveal or share or that you feel is here? 
Sarah: [00:53:10] No, your the only person I've spoken to where I'm not the maiden to mother, woman. It's all in me. But just being able to talk to you about my new work. That was really nice for me. Thank you. Yeah, 
Monica: [00:53:24] it was really beautiful to hear about and what a journey and yeah.
And more to be revealed, right?
Sarah: [00:53:30] Yes. 
Monica: [00:53:32] So, oh, thank you. I'm just like in awe, it's been an honor. I'm so glad we finally got to do this. I was just like, I'm going to stay here. I'm going to stand here until she's ready and because yeah, 
Sarah: [00:53:47] And I know I would have been in like a library parking lot and like kids running, you know, like I, I hadn't landed. I haven't landed.
Monica: [00:53:59] Yeah, well, again, I'm just like so glad because my deep deep sense in just being a witness to your work has been how much you have to say an offer for other women to really heal. So I love, love, love, and I'm a huge fan of you and your work. 
Sarah: [00:54:19] I know Jess is really excited to work with you, so I'm so excited for what you're going to offer the world. I know you're already offering. Yeah. Yeah. 
Monica: [00:54:28] Well, and don't think that I didn't listen to what you were saying about having to, you know, heal as you were writing that I'm like. Yeah. Uh, no. Yes, no. Yes. Right. So here I go,
Sarah: [00:54:41] You got it. You have your sword? 
Monica: [00:54:44] That's all. Yeah, my pen. Okay. Got it. All right. Well, to our listeners, we'll be sure to have Sarah's information in the show notes and you can of course find her and catch a glimpse on her.
Maybe over time in social media. And of course, Be able to get her books when they're out, which is going to be soon, soon enough, or just on time, right on time and timing. Yeah. And so until next time more to be revealed,
We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift subscribed to our mailing list. Or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed. .