59 Kat
Monica: [00:00:00] Welcome to the revelation project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed. It gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to another edition of the revelation project.
Podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you today. To Kat Miller, cat Miller has an M a in spiritual psychology for the past 35 years. She's been counseling teaching and consulting. Her passion is using aging as a catalyst to breaking free from cultural conditioning and discovering truth and wisdom through our own direct experience.
It's possible. To be at peace and live from love even while experiencing loss and heartbreak free. She says, we find ourselves in the present where our beauty, gratitude and joy are most recently she's using photography as a way to express the inherent beauty of aging and impermanence. 
Hi Kat.
 
Kat: [00:01:19] Hi, Monica. I am excited to be here. Just, just hearing the intro to me. I'm like, Oh yeah, that is what I, she is pretty great. Yeah. 

Monica: [00:01:30] Isn't that funny? Loving that last line, because I don't know if you know this cat, but how the revelation project started was actually as a photography project and while, Oh. And while I don't necessarily consider myself. A technical photographer. I have a love of photography and photographs have always been a portal for me into kind of feeling into kind of situations. It's I almost have like this interesting sixth sense around photography where I can look at an image even when I was a little child and kind of like.
Tell you what was present based on what I'm seeing in the photograph. And I always thought everybody could do that. And of course, it wasn't until I was an adult that I started really using it as an access to help women kind of really experience. More freedom and liberation by kind of creating this bridge into being able to see themselves more authentically and embrace themselves wherever they were at in their lives.

Kat: [00:02:35] Well, that's perfect. I mean, that's obviously what I'm interested in as we talk about, you know, through the portal of aging. But I, I love that you are able to do that. That's as you say, you thought maybe most people were able to do that, but most people probably are not. Yeah. What I love about the photography is the, is I use a macro, I'm doing flowers and I use a macro lens to look at flowers, close up and.
I enter into in a way, not a sixth sense, but a dimension of the flowers that my sort of naked eye can't see. Even if I come really close to a flower and you know, it's a world in there of beauty and it brings a natural awe and reverence and appreciation for life. 
Monica: [00:03:20] Yeah. And I immediately kind of had this, had this image of like Georgia O'Keeffe and how she would paint flowers in kind of those really exaggerated up-close imagery.
And it really, I remember that same kind of. What you're talking about having this more sacred understanding of symmetry, sacred geometry, you know, and all of the ways in which we're surrounded by this miraculous beauty, but like when we, when do we ever really get an opportunity to really get up close and really be with that beauty in that way.
And that's a great segue kind of into aging. 
Kat: [00:04:02] Yes, because it is an opportunity for people that are aging, we're generally slowing down and it's considered, you know, like you shouldn't admit it. It's a negative. It's considered a negative thing to slow down, but in terms of enjoyment of life, it's actually a very positive thing.
It's actually, even if you're young and your twenties slowing down, brings more joy, it's a natural thing. But as you get older, it's actually physiologically and emotionally and you just you're slowing down because you're not, you're not quite so involved with all the. Kind of performance anxiety that we've had through out our younger years and trying to be this and that and perfect this and that.
So, yeah, it's. It's a beautiful thing. 
Monica: [00:04:49] It is a beautiful thing. And I love this word perfection, right. And performance, because there's so much pressure in both of those words. And I think that there's also this kind of crossing over. I'm going to raise my hand and say, having just turned 51 of the experiences that I've really been.
Noticing and embracing is this feeling of, I think as I start to kind of bridge into my crone years, just this, this allowance, this permission and this wisdom, you know, that, that I feel is always. Available, but we're so busy, busy, busy. And in like we were talking about this kind of performative way of being in our early years at whether it's this proving energy or whatever it is that we were not able to kind of receive or tap into.
All of the wisdom around us. And I think that there's just this natural way that we kind of settle into getting access as we age. And I want to go back to what you were saying about how, you know, we're taught or we're conditioned to think of this as like, as a bad thing as like something that we should be ashamed of, or we should hide.
Kat: [00:06:09] Yes. It's, you know, many of my friends, so I'm going to be 65 in February. And many of my friends are around my age, you know, some 10 years older and some 10 years younger kind of thing, but around my age and to see age-ism cause that's really what we're talking about is age-ism affect well-being. Um, is really, uh, stunning.
I mean, that's how I sort of got interested in age and age-ism and aging is, I've always worked kind of with my peers, uh, at least the last decade or so I've been working with midlife women. And then as I got older and some of my clients got older, you know, it, it kind of just fell into the aging and it was just.
Incredible to see the level of inculturation, which is such an impingement upon aging. And you know, most recently you see a lot of, uh, post on Instagram or Facebook and people are sharing stories of, you know, the 98 year old woman. Who's doing high hurdles and. You know, the 102 year old woman, you know, do teaching yoga classes and things.
And that becomes the new, like, that's, what's valuable. If you can do those things, then that's a good, that's a good aging. And that is a remarkable aging and a fantastic one. If one's interested in those things and can do them, but it actually devalues other ways of being an aging. 
Monica: [00:07:47] I love that you're really focusing on how we kind of unconsciously do that because there's this way.
I think that we kind of continue to perpetuate this. And I forget how you said it, but the inculturation of it. Is that what you said? Yes. 
Kat: [00:08:05] Yes. 
Monica: [00:08:06] I want to back up for a second and really just get your definition of age-ism because I don't want to make assumptions that our listeners kind of, you know, that we're all kind of familiar with the concept.
Kat: [00:08:17] Okay. 
Well, you know, age-ism in the dictionary just basically says it's discrimination and stereotyping on the basis of age. So it's just very simple. It's the same as all, all other isms, racism, sexism, genderism. So it's, it's exactly the same. What is, what is different about, uh, age-ism is that the people that are actually in the group?
So those of us that are older. Actually hold the stereotyping in most groups that are, have bias against them in Sarah typing and discrimination, they don't believe the stereotypes and the discrimination. You know, they don't agree with it. So it isn't that people in all the groups, whether it's race or gender having at times felt that, you know, Oh, maybe I am whatever, you know, as a woman, maybe I'm not capable.
I have an emotional, you know, body or something, you know, back in the day. But mostly the people in the group don't believe it with ageism. The biggest ageist are. People of a certain age, people who are older. So that's where it's really scary. So with my friends and this is really then got me going, because I, I would say that my friends are quite consciously aware and, you know, bright and intelligent and read and all the, all the good things that w w heightens one's awareness and understanding of things use derogatory terms about aging all the time.
Monica: [00:09:47] Can you give me an example? 
Kat: [00:09:48] Well most recently, so I started this aging project learning and reading and, and watching Ted talks and, you know, all kinds of things to, to get myself up to speed and see what was out there. So my partner in this was, uh, is, uh, was a dear friend of mine. Candice Luciano and she just died a few days ago.
Monica: [00:10:12] Oh gosh. I'm sorry. 
Kat: [00:10:13] Yeah. Yeah. A very big, big deal in my life. We were very, very close and we, we did this work together. And one of her friends, we were reading over our obituary to see if it sounded right. And if there was anything we needed to add, and one of her dear friends said, you know, as it was being read that the her age was put in, you know, from this date to this day, right.
That she was born here and died here. And our friends said, Oh, no, no, no, don't put her, don't do that. Don't don't put her age in. So that's most recent one. 
Monica: [00:10:47] Uh, okay. And I, and I want to, yeah, so don't put her age in as if, so what I'm making up about that statement is that somehow her age would reflect negatively or something like, okay,
Kat: [00:11:01] It'd be like it. And the person also said something like, well, you know, you know how people are they talk? They like to gossip and talk. Well, it's so interesting. You know, she was, uh, I think 72. About what, what would you talk about, you know, if you really look at it it's what would you talk about? Oh my God. She was 72. And what she looks so young or she acted so young.
Those are all, all those would all be ages. Comments. 
Monica: [00:11:26] Yeah. Well, okay. So I love this because I caught myself saying like, I really, I, I really kind of. I thought to myself when I did this, like, Oh my God, I can't like I was beating myself up, but there was a, there was a woman who is also in her sixties and she declared her age and I, and I literally came out of my mouth so automatically.
Wow. You look amazing for your age. Yeah, that's right. Like, those are the, the things that we're talking about and there's an unintended impact and it continues to perpetuate this idea that like there's an ideal, we often talk about how as women we've been socialized to really kind of fit into this ideal image and women everywhere are just throwing off these social chains and.
And age is a big part. And of course it's not just this isn't just relegated to women, but I would say that women are treated a lot differently as it relates to age than men. For example, if we just look at the fact that most men are considered handsome as they age like salt and pepper hair, blah, blah, blah, and then you have women and it's a completely different stereotype.
Kat: [00:12:47] Well, and if, you know, the way it has been until most recently male actors could be, you know, 70 and their lead actress in this relationship of the Bovie with them is, you know, 25 or 30. And that was actually acceptable. You know, now older actresses are getting great parts and there's some great relationship, uh, movies being produced that, you know, are changing that, but that's very recent.
I mean, age-ism is quite old. It's a, it's a very, uh, there's a lot of money to be made on. Age-ism. Ooh. Tell me more about that. Well, it's a very, very lucrative field. So if you look at plastic surgery for one, which is, you know, uh, uh, I don't know what the billions are of it industry a year. A lot of that has to do with trying to look younger as if that will then bring happiness.
You know, we've got that. If you look young, you're happier than if you look however you look. I mean, I have friends that have been out in the sun. And chose that lifestyle and they look what you would say, they look their age or they look older or something, you know, so it's all, it's all made up, of course, but also the cosmetic industry is tremendous in terms of anti-aging fighting aging age, define makeup and, you know, unconsciously, I mean, we know what.
The images of very, very thin women in the media have done to young girls. We know we can see it, you know, the fallout of that, including all the way to suicide, you know, for not looking a certain way. So with the industry's just ramming away at women to look as young as possible and to start very early start age, define.
Where are the age defined makeup when you're in your twenties? So that by the time you're 60, there's no way in hell you look, you know, in quotes, whatever, a 60 year old or a 70 year old or 80 or 90 year old woman looks like. So it's a very lucrative business and it's not going to be given up easily. I don't want to compare it to other, you know, racism or other, other things, because it's just its own.
But it's, it's. It makes a lot of money. 
A nd it's part 
Monica: [00:15:04] of, kind of, again, this, this system that I would love to see a shift and break down, like so many of the other systems that we're seeing kind of fall apart. And I'm, I'm going to just throw, throw that out there that I hope that this is also going to get deconstructed in the midst of all of this, because how can it not, it's all interconnected.
Kat: [00:15:27] Yes. Well, you know, one of the ways to really. Help it demystify this to look at some actual statistics to really look at the truth of it. And I just gonna throw out one, which is this U curve of happiness, which maybe you've heard of, I don't know if you have or not, but it's a study that was done throughout 72 countries.
And it was started maybe the first time. It was like in the early 2000 and it's been replicated over and over again. And what it says, and the U curve of happiness is the happiest people on the planet. So cross-cultural. Are people. Uh, the oldest people on the planet are the happiest people on the planet and the youngest people are the happiest.
So the U curve is that you start out very happy. Then you go through twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties are the unhappiness unhappiest at the fifth, somewhere in the fifties, you start to move towards that you curve, or you start to come up the curve and get happy again. And it's. You know, it's, it's a statistic that when I share it with my friends and I hope when I share it here, that there's some sort of impact, like.
Well, that can't be true because we don't think of older people as being happy. 
Monica: [00:16:41] Yeah. Except I really am getting, I'm getting it. I get that, you know, I'm starting to get it. And one of the things that I was saying about turning 50 is I feel younger as I go. And that's, that's a spiritual feeling. It's not a right.
Like, there's a way that I think too, we're. We're missing our culture again is so on the surface of life. And if I say that, I'm going to point to what we can see the tangible reality, but what we don't talk about and honor, and bring into our lived experience in reality on a regular basis is how this mind, body spirit is all connected and how.
All as we kind of get older and start integrating. And, you know, I know for myself anyway, that I spent a tremendous amount of time being disembodied because, you know, and I think a lot of women do. It's something I talk about a lot where. The body. Okay. The tangible body, the physical body is not necessarily a safe place for a lot of women to be in a culture that continually tells us, you know, that we're not good enough.
Kat: [00:17:58] Oh yeah. 
Monica: [00:17:59] Or that there's so much kind of physical and verbal assault and that we just kind of figure out a way at an early age to kind of numb out and disembody. And so part of. Part of my, you know, kind of coming back into and this reclamation process that, that I've really been through is I have a right to be in my body.
You know, I have a right to my emotions and to experience my life and to actually. That, that it's the body and being embodied that gave me access to more of my spirit, that the portal into my spiritual self was actually also through my physical form. And I feel like we've got this all backwards a little bit, like there's to go back to what you were saying about, you know, how we, we really, you know, look at at aging as like, We wouldn't look at people who are getting older as, as happier, but it's, as I, as I get older, I get wiser.
I get more fully permissioned. I get more, uh, I guess, practice at being in self approval and I care less about what other people think. And honestly, that's, what's created happiness and my freedom. 
Kat: [00:19:20] Yes. Well, you know, I mean, there is, there is, you know, steps to life, you know, kind of the concerns of a 20 year old, you know, there, there is, uh, there is, uh, can't think of the name right now, even though it's a very simple thing.
There is, uh, steps to, you know, when you're, you're a householder, when you're raising your children, when you're doing all these different things, when you're building your career, when you're in your twenties, you're moving away from what your parents taught. You're trying to find your own identity. So there's all these.
Monica: [00:19:48] Right. Like the natural evolution of 
Kat: [00:19:51] the actual evolution. So there hasn't been much work done on people over 60, even 50, you know, that Erickson and these different people that do the stages of life, they kind of dropped off. Right. People didn't as a group were, you know, there's more people older now than ever, right.
We're the largest. Group on the planet, our elders and the largest group of that is women. So they're the largest circle of influence could be older women because they're the largest significant population on the planet. So it's, it's an opportunity, as you say, as you're coming, you journey and 50 is you're letting go of those past.
Phases of life and naturally coming more into your own. I mean, this is why, so why are people happier as they get older? You know, what is it about, why are, why is an 80 year old, happier than a 65 year old and a 90 year old, happier than a. You know, 50 year olds, you know, what they've studied and what they see is because you finally kind of could do come into your own.
You can look at your own life. And this is the work that my friend Candice and I were really doing is that you can look back at your own lives and really see the truth of life, not what you were taught. Not, you know, what you learned from others and books and things, which is all valuable. All of that's valuable and it is part of us, but we actually, once we're past a certain age, we can, or if you've had a traumatic enough childhood or just one of those, some.
Some beans are just born, you know, wise you can look back and you can see the S the whatso of life. You can see that you actually are resilient. You can see that you've actually made it through things that were so hard that you didn't think you could make it just knowing that in your own body, as you were saying, is an embodied level makes a tremendous difference than knowing it.
You might know that intellectually when you're younger, but by the time you're your age in my age, Enough stuff has gone wrong, or people have died or relationships have ended, or friends have broken up or careers were ended so much has happened by now that we can actually see the truth. That for one is that life ha will always have.
Times where it's a mess, where there is loss and grief and heartbreak and dreams that, you know, don't come true. And there's such value in that, because then there's a relaxation possible, which is. Wow. You know, there's an old Chinese proverb, which is life is 10,000 joys and 10,000 sorrows. Now, if we would have been taught that when we were young, I certainly would have had a different experience because when I tried to do for most of my life was I tried to perfect everything, my personality, my life experience, my work, my relationships.
I mean, if it moved, I tried to perfect it and then I thought I would be happy if I could get. Everything just to be as absolutely good as possible. And of course I discovered that it was impossible and that was a great day. You know, I met my teacher gong  and my spiritual teacher  and, you know, she just flipped that whole.
Concept on its head, right? 
Monica: [00:23:17] Yes. I, I love that you brought jeez name into it because my goodness, she is, she has flipped that script for so many of us. And, and I want to, I also want to really go back to this, this word that you use, do you know, which is a sacred word to me, which is elders and wisdom keepers, and really, because there's another.
Really kind of sad and tragic consequence to ages them. And it's how we treat our elders and our wisdom keepers and theirs. They hold so much value and bring so much value into our lives and into our society. And there's. So I'm kind of holding my heart as I say this, because I have so much sadness around how we are as a culture around our elders.
And I wondered if you could talk to that. 
Kat: [00:24:16] Well, you know, it's certainly highlighted right now with COVID of course, where you can see how people are actually being kept. I mean, If it wasn't for this situation, you would call it elder abuse to put people in rooms where they can't leave them. Literally they cannot leave them and they haven't been able to for months.
And then at what it brought up is just really to look at how we are taking care of our elders financially health wise, what rights do they have? So it's, it's very sad on the other hand are on a different hand, I guess, is that. Because of age-ism, which wasn't really around, you know, a hundred years ago, so much elders have actually believed the story that they have, not that much value.
What do they have to give to the younger generation? I've lived my life. That's very common. I hear it quite frequently. I've lived my life. You know, I had my chance, well, that's a little screwy to me because you're still alive. And what do you have to impart? It may not be something showy at all. It may be a very internal state, but how you move through life, but there's something there.
And so part of it, I think, is for elders. When we look at indigenous. Folks, we can see elder wisdom. We can see the respect for elders, but elders have fallen out of grace. If you look at TV sitcoms and things, elders are made fun of, you know, they're either cookie, you know, I mean, that's a very common image that they're sort of cookie kind of have to Pat them on the back.
Okay. Grandpa. So to stand in our elderhood, we have to actually. We actually have to be authentic. You know, we actually have to rise beyond inculturation because we do have something offer, which is what happens when you actually know from your bones and cells, that life is impermanent and that it's finite and you're going to die.
That's the biggest changer of happiness. That this U curve of happiness study and a few other studies have shown is that, that people that realize that life is short, not just intellectually, but it is short. They get on the ball. They go, how do I actually want to spend my time? What do I have a value to offer?
You know, what's important to me now, now, now, now, so there's a coming into the present, living more in the present. So there's a lot to offer because to be able to speak that back to the younger generations. There is a great adaptability of that elders have, they also can see things, you know, there's something about many scientists or people have said, you know, the elders there, they lose their cognitive functions and they don't think as quickly and everything.
And there is some truth to that for sure. Uh, the speed of function changes, but what they're actually saying in many studies is that older people actually think with more circuits, they can look at things from many points of view. At the same time, they can hold things for many, many different perspectives.
They can turn an issue or, uh, you know, some situation around and look at it. And that's extremely valuable to the younger generations. 
Monica: [00:27:52] Yeah. I mean, it really is so valuable. And I want to kind of keep talking about this, the indigenous culture there for a moment, because there's so much conversation that I'm having recently that feels so rich and it's, it's really around kind of this creating these bridges between kind of this.
Modern world and kind of the, the indigenous wisdom and that the pendulum has kind of been swinging for a long, long time in the direction of kind of this modern way of, of living. And there's, there's a way that we have really honored our individualism to the point where we've. Forgotten that we're all connected and that yes.
You know, and we've forgotten those connections. Not only as they relate to our families and our elders and our youth, because how could we treat our children the way that we treat our children in this country, as well as our elders, if we. Believed that we were interconnected. Yes. Well, how we would actually start to look at the trauma and the F the fact that we.
That hurt people, hurt people, and we're bringing these children into the world and they're being neglected and abused. And then the same with our elders. There's such an issue here and there's, there needs to be, and I love that we're creating. Cause I think conversations are a bridge into yes, connecting these and unifying and starting to really look at.
Where we now need to kind of come back to center and like, look at the wisdom that we've learned from kind of going to these extremes and understanding that there's, there's an interconnectedness that is healthy and is in integrity and is in service to all of us. And that. Bringing and bridging now these kind of two worlds of economy and ecology are also, I think, at the very heart of what we need to create a future for us right now.
Like I literally think we're on the verge. We all talk about kind of this sixth extinction, right. That we're on the verge. That humanity is on the verge of that right now. And in my. Humble opinion. There's, that's where the kind of the heart of our work lies is in creating a new way of harmonizing this economy and the ecology in a way that we are interconnected, that we're leveraging and bringing into the circle, this indigenous and elder wisdom.
And. Just really starting to look at what is sustainable and what is, is not 
Kat: [00:31:03] Well, this, you know, as you're saying, and I'm feeling into what you're saying, you know, the beauty of being in our connected is. You know, a direct response, relate to the isolation and aloneness that so many people are feeling that the pandemic has brought, you know, to the forefront.
And people are realizing that being home as being also in their garden or walking through a forest, if they can, that we are interconnected, that we now have a worldwide. Throughout the world we're going through this together. And it's one of the first times, or maybe the, it is the first time in recorded history that we've done this together.
And you know, so, so we're getting a lot of help and support. Obviously it's from a bad situation, it's in a situation that is causing so much suffering and loss and death. And yet it is showing people in a very direct experience of the interconnectedness and is bringing out some of the beauty in the best of people, where they really are helping their neighbors.
And they really are seeing, Oh my God, I didn't really realize this, this part of the. Of the peoples of, let's say the United States were suffering in this way. My ignorance, you know, so I think there's a great rise of interconnectedness. And as you say, we can look to the indigenous peoples of the world for, we don't have to reinvent the wheel, they already, and they all already lived it for thousands of years and hundreds of years and a very, very long time.
And, you know, we can really call upon that. Cause it's all laid out. It's all right there. And as you say, we can apply it to the economy and sustainability of our present lives because it's, it's a way of seeing, right? If you, because it certainly feels like a separate individual identity. I experienced myself in a separate body moving through the world with objects in front of me and behind me around me.
And it's, you know, to leave that perception just a little bit behind or. You know, step next to it and, and have the experience of the oneness of life. Again, changes everything .
Monica: [00:33:24] Well, and I love that. It's ironic that the way that we're learning this is by the slowing down in the pausing, which is what we say is kind of the, the beauty of, of what aging does, right.
If we're not to look at it negatively and as a positive then of course that's a new perspective to be able to see kind of, again, what. Might otherwise be a negative situation. There's so many, much disguised positives here. Yes. When we start to really look below the surface, yes. I want to kind of move into really talking to you Kat about how do we, how do we really get from a fear of aging into embracing aging?
Like what, what could you say to. Cause there's, there's one way that we're all like, yeah, yeah. Right. But there's also kind of the way we get off this conversation or call and kind of get stuck right back into the same patterns or fears. What, what would you say to those of us that really want to step away from the fear of aging?
Kat: [00:34:27] Well, I think it's cool if you, if one, you know, if we tap into the fear, if, if you know anybody that might be afraid of aging might be afraid of dying, actually taps into it and meets the fear. So to actually be with it and be curious about it, like, wow, I have a fear of aging. What the heck is that about, you know, maybe kind of even looking where they, it might've come from the variety of sources that might've come from you might've had, uh, you know, a person might've had, uh, a grandmother or grandfather or their mother or their father, they would, they would say did not age well.
Okay. So that might be one source. You know, in my case, my mother was a great role model for aging until she got dementia. And then she was aging in the most horrible ways. But up until that, it looked really good to me because she and her friends were wild and open and authentic.  

Monica: [00:35:25] I love that. 
Kat: [00:35:27] And you know, 
I got to see that. So that's a component. How, what have you seen in your lifetime? And you are. Most likely your family structure could bend to your neighbors or whatever that, and then to see what else is it? Is there a fear of actual wrinkles people? Cause that's what the cosmetic industry is pointing out. That there's a real problem with wrinkles, right?
And to really then look to really look at your environment. So your, your beginnings, you know, your, your family life, but then to look at what have I, what have I been taking in. Are you a Vogue magazine person? Are you, you know, where, where am I drawing my information from? So you discover that and see where the fear is around that.
And then to sort of tell the truth about it. Is it really possible that wrinkles are a problem? That they're bad and they shouldn't happen. I mean, you know, if you look at straight in the face, no pun intended, but if, you know, it's like, wow, that is a really messed up. That's a belief system. Is that a belief system that's going to serve me because if I'm lucky I'm going to get wrinkled.
That means I got, I lived, I'm going to live. So the goal would be to look like a sharpei eventually the goal is not to have no wrinkles and no cellulite and no saggy breast or whatever. You know, this gravitational force, the, the joy is go with the gravitational force. 
Monica: [00:37:03] I I'm over here, like shaking my head right at the absurdity of it. But, but also really like looking at my own enrollment in it, because I love what you said, tell the truth about it.
So, one thing that I had to face, you know, which is, I won't say is like a. A very flattering thing to admit, but I feel like, you know, again for kind of modeling sake, you know, to, to model what telling the truth about it really is for me, one of the things that I really looked at as I was aging was. This whole obsession that I had with my mirror image was I pretty enough?
Was I this enough? Was I that enough? And it was like, when I started the inquiry of like, why does that matter to you so much, Monica? Why I started seeing things. It's just like being with that, the discomfort of that, like the, the knowledge of that, and then just getting curious about it. Like why, why can I not leave the house without.
Making myself look presentable or putting my face on as I was told, growing up. Yes. Yes. So it's getting curious, right. About some of these things. And one of the things that I really started to notice was that I stopped being noticeable in the streets by mass. Yeah. Right when I was like, Oh my God. Like, Oh, that, that was hard for me too.
To admit that that meant something to me about my potency or my, my attractiveness or my, let me be more honest, value. 
Kat: [00:38:44] Right, right. And that, so that's age, that's ageism. 
Monica: [00:38:47] And that was horrifying to look at, to really look at. And, and so what I hear you saying Kat is there's a way that when we kind of. Get deeper into this inquiry and we get more honest with ourselves about it.
There's a way that we kind of naturally move into releasing it and seeing it from other perspectives. But when we're not able to, when we keep pushing that fear and that discomfort away, we're never going to reach a new perspective about it. Right. 
Kat: [00:39:19] And it's because, uh, because it's such an accepted, if you caught yourself saying something about women or.
Black people, or I don't know, mentally challenged people, handicap, whatever, if you call you would go, Oh my God, you know, Oh, geez. I. Whoops. Wow. But with ageism, it's so built in that. You're, we're saying it, we're saying it all the time. And so it's really starting to catch the things that we say a little while ago.
I'm going to kind of, I hope this is okay. You said that in your fifties, you're starting to feel younger. And what you, what you meant by that? I think what, or what did you mean by that? 
Monica: [00:40:03] What I mean is more free. Like when I think it's actually an aging thing. Yeah. It's not a younger thing. Right? 
Kat: [00:40:12] Cause people in their twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties actually feel less free than people, 60, 70, 80, 90 years old.
So it's actually, you are, you're actually feeling older. Because to feel older is to feel lighter. 
Monica: [00:40:27] I love to feel freer. I love that. I love this because it's pointing exactly to kind of like that in culturation, right? Like I'm, I'm going to, like, I feel like younger, but what I really mean is I feel more liberated.
What I mean is I really feel more free. I feel more, feel less kind of. Less concerned about what everybody else thinks. And it reminds me to even take it further of like being, being 10 before I got into caring about how the world perceived me, I was just me. 
Kat: [00:41:04] Yeah. And by the time you were 12 as a girl, you were gone.
Yes. I mean, there's some REM and that the remanence are here because who you were is who you are and still am. And as you age, you can recap, you can re connect
and this, and you can come out because yes, it, it changes. So, so it is, you can see how insidious it is, because if you really look at it, Were you free in your twenties? Probably not. You're trying to probably like me trying to figure and everybody, I know I'm trying to figure out who they were, you know, what's my unique Mark, you know, you're trying stuff.
Some of it's working, some of it's not in your thirties, you're trying, you're starting to establish a life, you know, of work and possibly child raising and marriage and you know, our partnership with some, so there's these, these stages. So we really. The unhappiest people are the people we think, Oh, in my twenties I was free.
Well, you were actually probably, I was, you know, very concerned about how people perceived you. 
Yeah. I was so not free in my twenties. No way. 
Well, and I was just a, you know, wild one. So, you know, I mean, if I acted like that, now I'd be. It's dead, but, so, yeah, so it's really turning things on their head is that, you know, this living with impermanence, that those of us who are older know about, and yet.
It can seem so there's many ways obviously to do aging, you know, aging just means you just have more years on you, but to age, if you want to age, you know, I do it, I'm interested in the psycho-spiritual perspective. So from that perspective, aging is an opportunity to sort of cultivate from your life experience.
And to see what's true. And then to bring that into present time to sort of update and update yourself and to see that what people thought of you didn't end up having a positive impact generally on most of our lives, it's really what we ended up thinking of ourselves that had the most direct impact on our lives.
So. Kind of bring this back to impermanence is that, you know, to see that all the phases, everything is impermanent, anything that has a beginning and a middle and an end is impermanent. And to really know that in your bones, as you get older is to consciously, automatically go with the flow because.
There's nothing to hang on to, but that also includes the really, really hard things. I mean, the possibility of ill health, the possibility of loved ones dying kind of left and right, as you get older, I mean, there's a lot of possible losses, loss of identities that you cherished in your life. I work with a lot of older men.
I work with couples older men, you know, women. And I actually work with people of all ages, but you know, a lot of men so identified with their work as who they are. And so just even retirement just kicks their ass because after the first couple of years of the dream of I'm going to do nothing and watch sports and have a couple of beers in two years time, they're like, Oh my God.
I mean, live another 30 years. What the hell am I going to do with myself? You know, that's sort of what I, I see sometimes. So this really being able to the secret of impermanence, that's sort of my new love affair. I don't have a person in my life. I'm in love with impermanence is to really see it is the design of the universe.
I mean, it is everything, you know, everything is impermanent. And to actually go with that is so incredibly beautiful to go with the design, but why most of us don't like impermanence is because it means loss and it does, it means loss and grief and heartbreak. And it also means joy and beauty and all. 
Monica: [00:45:08] Oh yes. And you know, I, as you were speaking, I just remembered a quote that I love from Pema children. And so I thought I'd read it to be fully alive, fully human and completely awake is to be continually thrown out of the nest to live fully is to be always in no man's land. No to experience each moment as completely new and fresh to live is to be willing to die over and over again.
Yep. And it's like, Oh my gosh, it gives me air. Like I can breathe in that place because the impermanence that you speak of is, you know, the reason that I was inspired to kind of seek a conversation like this, and I always love. That when I'm actually intentional about it, that exact person is revealed to me, which is what my revelation project is all about.
But I, I had started this conversation interviewing Linda Friedman, who, as, you know, as a mutual friend of Hillary Larson and eyes, and you know, what had come up as I was talking to her is at, you know, 80, 81. She was, she was. Doing, um, I think it's non-contact boxing. And when I started working with her a few years ago, we don't ask each other's age, but how she showed up continually as a filmmaker and as a producer and doing all of these things, it never occurred to me.
Cause you were talking about these men who kind of end up being locked in this identity of their work is who they are. And of course we all have that trap that we run into. And what I got to see in myself as I learned Linda's age was this whole concept of age-ism and like why I was so surprised or filled with wonder that she was.
Still taking the world by the horns. Yes. It, that it, that somehow that was, that really confronted me to look more deeply at my own beliefs. And also how it also, she's a model for, for me, like an incredible role model in general, to like, throw those. Societal norms and constricting ways of thinking about age and busting those myths and just really normalizing.
Aging in a way that just gives all of us full permission to keep going for all of it. You know, I love, I love somebody I interviewed the other day said the day that I stagger into my grave, it's just, we all get to do it the way that is uniquely suited to us. And it's again, just a natural extension of the truth of who we are, how we age gets to be.
However we want to age. 
Kat: [00:48:19] Yeah. I mean there. Yes. And to really make room. So, you know, we, I spoke a little bit about she, so she represents a particular role model that we go, Oh yeah. That's what it looks like then when it's really done well, but we have to, as you just said, you know, it looks like. It looks like nothing, because it looks like each unique individual, how they do it is how, how aging actually takes place to just bring more consciousness and more possibility into being at peace and to, you know, enjoing.
Well life as, as you, you know, as sort of indigenous ways, you know, to be very deeply present, to, you know, appreciate the small things, to realize that time is short and what, what joy that brings because of one just starts to kick out the crap that doesn't have, meaning it's just a natural, natural unfolding of that.
So, you know, aging, one of the things that's challenged me and I'm, you know, gonna admit it here is. You know, because I'm so interested in this. So I'm really looking deeply at my own age-ism and I'm listening closely to what people are saying and I'm reading and writing and, you know, trying to catch up, but is to really make peace for me with, uh, there's a particular type of woman.
I have a, uh, stereotype about and, uh, discrimination about. And that is the woman that we would say hasn't kept. Kept up herself. That is the woman. And you know who before were gray now is the new, you know, it's in even young, people are trying to get gray hair, but they're the woman who are gray haired.
They wear, uh, you know, khaki, Navy, blue and tan. They don't, you know, no earrings, no makeup. Maybe, maybe you got a little weight on them. And. I have a prejudice about that. What I'm looking at by looking at that, like seeing, cause I'm looking around, where does it show up? Where does this show up for me? So see, discovering that it showed up there.
Then I started to really look deeply at that and to see what was possible in that, to see the freedom. And the simplicity and the, you know, I don't, I don't know, you know, I haven't interviewed a women and I don't go up to women who, who might present themselves in that way though. I do know some, so I do know some, but to really see what, what would be, uh, what would that be like to feel so comfortable in your own skin?
So comfortable with your own being that you are not actually trying to be. To impress anybody. And so for me, then that becomes a liberating, like what, what, what does that look like for me? You know, how, how can I incorporate that sense of wellbeing with how I present in the world? And to, you know, to draw something from that to 
Monica: [00:51:16] To draw something from it because as I listened to you, I can also relate it's um, in our house, we called it frumpy. Yeah, right, right. Like there's a, and in, it is looked at like, Oh, she let herself go. And like, it's like, wow. Yeah. She let herself go. Like to turn that on its head and just be like, go yes. More of that or whatever it is, but to get something from it versus judge it as bad wrong.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And really examine all of these 
Kat: [00:51:54] things. 
Yeah, to examine and it's so much fun to examine. I mean, I love reflection and introspection and in inquiry, it's, it's so much fun. Right. So also to see, I mean, obviously in any particular woman that might present herself like that, she may be depressed and sad and.
It has low self-esteem, but you can also see that in any woman that is actually is thin and you know what we would say, Oh, wow. She just looks so put together and so beautiful. And her hair is just perfect. She may actually be depressed low self-esteem. So you can't really locate wellbeing in physical appearance, particularly.
Yeah. So. A lot of the people that we might say, Oh, they, they look so young for their age. We've had maybe a series of faceless and maybe they're absolutely that totally worked for them. They're very happy about that. But if they did it to get happy, they probably didn't work. 
Monica: [00:52:47] Right. Well, and it points to kind of, again, how we, the assumption making and the.
You know, the way that we isolate versus connect versus go below the surface with people. This is where I think it is the, the richness of our. Of our learning, where we're really starting to venture, you know, as brave explorers into what feels like a lot of uncharted territory, but it in doing so we make so many fantastic discoveries that, that bring us more into harmony and bring our world more into harmony.
And so. You know, I want to thank you for just doing this work in the world and bringing this conversation to revealing kind of the ways in which we fall into this trap of. Doing the exact opposite thing that we really want to do. And ageism is something that just like racism, just like sexism. It's it's not sustainable.
It doesn't work. It's, it's not something that I think we as human beings want to continue to perpetuate, especially if it's not going to enrich and liberate us and make us more. Conscious and, and more happy, like when we really, when we really kind of tap into this work, what I, what I'm deeply in touch with is a sense of reverence and joy and appreciation.
Yes, 
Kat: [00:54:25] yes. Yes. Well, I thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. You know, I. I, I just fascinated by it and I, and I want the liberation, you know, I'm interested in using aging as a portal to, to freedom, to conscious awakening, to, to joy and what a beautiful portal it is. And as you say, we're all interconnected.
And we can all be liberated out of all the structures that were formed and put in place, and that are still in place that are actually holding us in bondage and in separation. 
Monica: [00:55:01] Yeah. Well, and just for our listeners, is there a particular place that you may or may want to lead them to, uh, so that they can learn more about you after this episode?
Kat: [00:55:12] Well, they can learn more about me at my website, which is cat's heart of the matter.com Katz K ATS, and then heart of the matter.com and, um, but I would also suggest Ashton Applewhites. Ted talk just to really kind of get a great dose. She speaks fantastic. And it's called let's end age-ism and it's a Ted, it's an older Ted and that's T E D.
And I would highly recommend that. And you know, the cool thing is, is that no matter what age you are. So if you're somebody who is 24 listening to this, you might notice that you already have. Some fears about aging and, uh, so to be reflective, but yes, come see me, come join me. You know, come check out my website and I hope to have many further discussions and to do more of this work, 
Monica: [00:56:07] I have a feeling you're going to, and for sure, and you're, you're just such a wealth of, of great insights and information.
So. Thank you again. And I also want to honor your dear friend, Candice, because I know that yeah, that she it's, I can really hear how much love and respect that you ha you held for each other. And that, that she was a big part of this work and this joy for you in discovering kind of this whole. Topic that really lights you up.
And so, yes, keep going. And for sure, for our listeners, we will put these links to Ashton Applewhite, Ted talk in the show notes as well as Kat's website. And until next time. Maura to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes.
We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.