Podcast: The Revelation Project Podcast

Episode Title: The Psychedelics Of Motherhood & Earth Medicine For The Ages

Host(s): Monica

Guest(s): Michaela

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Monica (Intro) | 00:00:03 to 00:00:33
Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project, and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast and Michaela Carlin's with me today.

Monica (Host) | 00:00:33 to 00:01:06
I'm so excited about because Michaela is the hostess of the Psychedelic Mom podcast, psychedelic meaning soul revealing, which is a revelation for me. I didn't know that that's what psychedelic meant. She's also a medicine woman, a teacher, a mother, and what she's up to in the world is really about amplifying and holding space for psychedelic conversations, ceremonies, and earth medicine. Welcome, Michaela. Thank you.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:01:06 to 00:01:11
I'm so happy to be here. It's so nice to be on the other side of the.

Monica (Host) | 00:01:15 to 00:01:29
I love I actually love being interviewed as much as I love interviewing, and I didn't know that. Yes. So this is only my second, so this is fun to be here on this side. So thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Monica (Host) | 00:01:29 to 00:01:46
Absolutely. And of course, my first question, I want to go right to Psychedelic Mom. When did you have the inspiration for psychedelics in your life and just how did that whole thing begin for you? Wow. Yes, it was very unexpected.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:01:46 to 00:02:16
I wasn't somebody who was a psychedelic explorer in my youth, not in high school or college. And so I was somebody deeply interested always in consciousness and spirituality. And I had a daughter, actually in high school that went through a depression and I had no idea as a mother how to deal with this. And I had never really experienced depression myself. And we're going back at a time where people didn't even really talk about it.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:02:16 to 00:02:52
There's a lot more conversation today about how youth are struggling or can struggle. So at the time, I love that you use the word the mess. The mess had to be under the rug or in the closet at that time, in my socioeconomic experience and family construct and constellation. So I was kind of, at the time, really at a loss. I mean, if you've ever experienced someone's depression, especially your child, it literally felt like the oxygen had left the house.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:02:53 to 00:03:20
As a mother, that's your primary role in life is your well being of your children. So I ended up down a pretty deep Internet rabbit hole trying to search for other options. And this wasn't in the midst of the psychedelic renaissance, as it's being called the Reemergence. It was before that. And I came across one article, I kind of had this feeling about SSRIs for whatever reason, and I've softened on that.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:03:20 to 00:03:42
But there was this feeling like, do they ever get off them? And is this a healthy way to go? And are there other options? And so I ended up, as I said, down a deep rabbit hole and came across one article at the time from I think it might have been the Empirical College of London. I'm not sure about the use of magic mushrooms for depression.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:03:42 to 00:04:36
Now this was like mind breaking for me because my understanding of psychedelics was that they know fry your brain. I grew up in the Just say no to drugs and so this was kind of a radical idea and I certainly wasn't going to use my daughter as a psychedelic experiment. But what it did is I felt this magnetic pull that I cannot describe to this day that kept me in this desire to research and know more. And as I began to research and know more and decided that wasn't going to be the route for my daughter, what I found was many of my ancient teachers and modern day teachers had used earth medicines for their deepest wisdom. And I kind of felt a little duped, because I was like, why didn't they tell us this?

Michaela (Guest) | 00:04:36 to 00:05:30
And they write these books and they have all this wisdom and I get it, they're not legal and they're still not legal and there's a lot of movement in that area. But I decided after really hearing the potentials of the raising of consciousness and the deeper understanding of my soul that I would have my own journey and I did and it really radically changed my life and my life path. So that's how I ended up even doing a psychedelic was a deep desire. My question going in was can these earth medicines and psychedelics give me access to parts of myself that I don't have, that my conscious mind doesn't have? And that was my question going in and would it give me a deeper understanding of this cosmos of myself, of the spirit realm?

Monica (Host) | 00:05:31 to 00:06:53
Yeah, I'll never forget sitting in Charles Eisenstein's kitchen and him saying it's a wonder that any of us become conscious without the use of earth medicines or psychedelics. And it kind of struck me like it lingered with me as this contemplative invitation to kind of think about that because we always hear about how alcohol acceptable good, plant medicine bad. It's just so strange to me how again everything is inverted. We live in this upside down totally where certain things we are steered away from and the more curious we get and the more we know about psychedelics it's no wonder that we are kept from knowing their true power. And truly coming from this place of like pachamama mother Earth actually grows everything that we need to heal ourselves and to know, to be in relationship, to be in a deeper intimacy with many of these sentient beings that again.

Monica (Host) | 00:06:53 to 00:07:26
We've been taught that we are not even in the same category or realm, that we're somehow above it, that we've centered ourselves versus included ourselves in the network of things, in the family of things, of all of life on Earth. And so I come back to this place where you in this great love for your own daughter, start. Because. The path kind of finds us. I find, right?

Monica (Host) | 00:07:26 to 00:07:47
Like, there are these places where we think we're going in one door, and we end up, like you said, down this rabbit hole. Totally different. Where one question turns into another question turns into another question. And suddenly we find ourselves questioning everything. Everything and it's continual.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:07:48 to 00:08:33
Psychedelic as you said, means soul revealing. And what does that mean? It really means to be really inviting of growth, to constantly be in the revelation as you use of self and that is part of this process. And like you said, I went down this path thinking I had this curiosity originally for the help of my daughter and then what it showed me was a completely different path for my life. So it's just kind of like you said I can look back in this and say if I had said what is the least likely thing I would have done with my life, this would have been it.

Monica (Host) | 00:08:33 to 00:09:10
Yeah, well on this same kind of thread you often say that motherhood is one of the most powerful psychedelics and that women have the right to live outside of the suppressive and oppressive systems of motherhood and relational dynamics. And I want to get curious about that and just ask you to say more about that. What do you mean when you say motherhood is one of the most powerful psychedelics? Yes. So we're talking about psychedelic meaning soul revealing.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:09:10 to 00:09:44
So I like to say that anything that reveals our soul is psychedelic. Life can be psychedelic, a trigger. When something triggers us, what is that telling us about where our wounding still is? And then I look at motherhood and I would say, I often say that motherhood yes, is the most powerful psychedelic on the planet because it reveals so many aspects of who we are. It reveals our cultural conditioning, it reveals where we are still wounded.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:09:45 to 00:10:15
There is no microdose to motherhood. It is a full on heroic dose. It is an initiation like nothing else is and it's a lifelong journey. And I think the other piece of psychedelic is one of the things that my work has shown me, whether it's through creating dialogue around Earth medicines and psychedelics or holding space. And also as a mother is that our growth is in relationship.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:10:15 to 00:10:53
And so when you have a family or you're a mother and you're in deep relationship with your children, you're going through all aspects of your life. I'm meeting a child at their earliest stages of their development. I'm meeting myself as a mother for the first time. Yeah, you're evolving in this evolution together and it is everything when we go into a psychedelic journey, just like the card you pulled, you pulled the card of the forest today before we started this podcast. You're going into the unknown.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:10:53 to 00:11:34
That's what an initiation is. And when we say yes to going into a medicine journey, we literally have no idea what is going to come up. We may have some ideas what might come up, but really the medicine's intelligence is far beyond our human intelligence and goes right to the place that you need to see. And I think that motherhood is similar. When you have a child, it doesn't matter how many books you read on what to expect when you're expecting or what to expect as a mother, they cannot touch the actual experience of being a mother.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:11:34 to 00:12:39
And the same is true of a psychedelic. If someone said to me what was your experience on ayahuasca I can't really convey the layers and layers of felt sensations and wisdom and knowledge given. And as you know, as a mother you could never tell really describe in words the mess that you've been involved with, the beauty that you've experienced, the days where it is like I don't know what to do here. And I think motherhood like a psychedelic is it's that surrendering, that forest card that you just spoke of, spoke of the point of life when you literally enter the space where you have to surrender and trust you're navigating something that's totally new. And motherhood again, I just think my children are adult children now and it's a whole nother realm of parenting.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:12:39 to 00:13:56
And one of the things that psychedelics have done for me was and I think this is part of what psychedelic means in the soul revealing is you suddenly are shown all the conditioning that you were raised in your social, cultural, political, economic conditioning without that wisdom, you just repeat that's why history repeats itself. You just repeat the past. And I think one of the beauties of psychedelics and that's why I think it is so important to destigmatize normalize and embrace the use of earth medicines. And psychedelics for mothers is because we have an opportunity to see from our deepest roots what we can't consciously within earth medicine how our own conditioning created the very personality and ego structures that we are and how it gives us an opportunity to then choose what to bring forth in our families what to bring forth as a human being. It gives us einstein said you can't fix a problem with the same level of consciousness that created the problem.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:13:56 to 00:15:16
And when I think of psychedelics it's almost as if before you have this view that's this big and then you suddenly it opens up a portal to your consciousness that's a little bit larger and shines lights on things that you don't have access to. And so as women, regardless of motherhood, but as even women, what psychedelics have shown me about the deep conditioning and the need to really look at the ways, many of the conversations you're having, the trance of unworthiness, the return to my own body, that was patriarchalized objectified. All these ideas came to me through the use of psychedelics and earth medicines because ultimately, Mother Earth, as you spoke of this wisdom within these plants that she gave us, So it is bizarre to me know we've been separated from them, that deep wisdom is for our growth. It was a gift to us to be able to use these medicines and be taught by Mother Earth's very own wisdom and to take that into our souls as a woman and into our families. That's what I've experienced.

Monica (Host) | 00:15:17 to 00:15:45
I love that, Michaela. What a beautiful way to express it. And I want to go back to something that you were saying about motherhood and even psychedelics and kind of the hero's dose that you were speaking to. It kind of speaks back to that card that we chose, which is the forest. And it says if you get out of the forest without feeling lost, you were only in a little grove of trees.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:15:45 to 00:16:30
Right. The Great Archetypical forest requires that we spend at least one night frightened for our lives. And there's this true experience for me both in motherhood over and over again, as well as in my own experience with psychedelics where it's this constant surrendering to the wisdom of the quote unquote forest or the wisdom in this case of the plant medicine that you're being taken on a journey. Right. The illusion of control, all of these ways that we're shown over and over again, like ha.

Monica (Host) | 00:16:30 to 00:17:28
It's so wild when we think about all of the ways that we are, it's like the psychedelics reveal these layers of illusion that we have been and delusion. And delusion. Yes, such a great point. Yeah, it's interesting too, because one of the other things is because of the illusion and delusion, I think there's deep compassion in that, that we have the consciousness that we have and that each generation has had the consciousness that it has had our own mothers. And one of the things that I notice in holding space for others is I'm in a position many times of healing the deep mother wounds, the mother wounds of people that come to do medicine.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:17:28 to 00:18:13
And when we think of those mother wounds that many of us have, and I'm sure my children have them as well, it is because of kind of the conditioning that we've come from. And it's interesting even as a mother, I've noticed recently with adult children kind of redefining how I even sit with them. I went out to dinner last night with my daughter and I'm here visiting her in Salt Lake City, and we've had this amazing time and we had this conversation last night that really got into some of the family dynamics. And it was our last night for dinner. And it was really interesting because she was talking, giving me analogy of a sandwich.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:18:13 to 00:18:47
And if you take one bite and you don't like that bite, there's a lot of good. But can we talk about the one bite that wasn't great. And in some ways, she was talking about her childhood, and she was going to say specifically to me, and it was really interesting. And I've gone back to all of my children and said, any repair, I am open for, like, anything that I reprised from conditioning, I am always open to repair. But it was interesting.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:18:47 to 00:19:15
Last night was a little bit of a different conversation, and it was, I'm always open for repair and to do anything, and I also no longer want to be in the box of being a mother that doesn't have feelings, that has to suppress her own experience it and all yes. Who. Yes. Do you want to talk about the bite you didn't like of me? Sure, let's set time aside for that.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:19:15 to 00:19:48
But how would you feel if I showed up and said, can I tell you the part of you tonight at dinner that didn't work for me? I said, you kind of need to be ready for that conversation. And I said, I want to hold space for that conversation because that's how we heal, and we've done it many times, but it was me kind of affirming, like, I also get to say what my experience was. I also get to say what my feelings are in this while holding yours. That's what adult relationship is.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:19:48 to 00:20:32
It's a dance together of growth. And so that's a whole new forest that I'm walking. Yeah, I love that so much, michaela, there's so much I love about what you just said. I often find myself with my family also needing to almost notice the multiple conversations that are in a space or wanting to be had in a space and noticing which conversations I'm willing to have in that moment and which conversations need to be put aside for another time. Because as we check in with ourselves, there are these true experiences.

Monica (Host) | 00:20:32 to 00:21:05
One which is like, I am willing, right. I am willing, but I am not ready to have that conversation. Yeah, exactly. It was like what I'm hearing is that both end of like, yes, I am willing at any point to repair, and that let's set that for that time aside on another day where we can really honor that conversation and explore that conversation. Yeah, exactly.

Monica (Host) | 00:21:05 to 00:21:50
And where you might have before as the all sacrificing mother who didn't notice all of the patterns and the way that we're conditioned to just be of service at the expense of ourselves all the time would have not laid out that so beautifully with your daughter. Even just saying it was like just saying it was like, okay, now I'm ready. It was kind of like just even saying, hey, I get to have boundaries and say, like, I'm exhausted. I've been traveling, I've been taking care of everybody else, and maybe for this conversation, I want to be more resourced. And even just saying it, I was like, okay, I'm ready.

Monica (Host) | 00:21:50 to 00:22:11
Yes. Right. Just hearing yourself have your own back and knowing that your daughter saw it too. And there was something actually even in that, that created space to then that created the resource that was the resource. So fascinating.

Monica (Host) | 00:22:11 to 00:22:59
I love that because we're kind of on this conversation about our kids. How have your kids kind of related to your discovering of your own inner medicine woman and your continuing and growing relationship to this work? Is that something that it's been a process, actually. And it's almost an upside down process in a way because it's usually our child that's going off and doing something that's out of the norm and we're like, hold on here, and we're trying to figure it out as parents. I think it was with yeah, I think it's been a process.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:22:59 to 00:23:51
And actually, the other part of the journey of psychedelics and Earth medicines is it's not all beauty, it is the forest. As many of the most cosmic beautiful experiences that I have had, I've also had to go into the deep, deep wounds of myself and at some point I think they were like, what is she doing? Again, this was prior to the psychedelic reemergence, so nobody was really talking about psychedelics yet. So now it's like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. But in that gray foresty area that I was in, I was really kind of being judged and I finally had to say like, I don't know if you think I'm just off doing psychedelics.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:23:51 to 00:24:30
I said, this has been a deep, deep, healing journey of going into many memories and traumas that I didn't even have access to. And so I don't know what your impression is of this, but this is something that I am really committed to. And again, it was hard for me because I didn't realize how much I had. It's hard to say, but really wanted their approval, even wanted my children's approval on so many levels. And part of the psychedelic journey.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:24:30 to 00:25:15
And working with Earth medicines really teaches you about your truth and your sovereignty, not in a way that's like, selfish, but in a way that if I don't give myself the opportunity to live what's true for me, how can I do that for you too? This is all of us saying, let me honor you where you are on your path. It took a lot of conversations and I think one day my daughter said to me, mom, just stay in the box. And I was like, no, because the box is all the conditioning that I'm actually breaking free of. It is the layers of my own ego that I am trying to break free of.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:25:15 to 00:25:44
The box is not where we want to stay. And so those were many conversations. It was also me being in another role. Yeah, it's fascinating. I can relate to this, as I'm sure you know, because similarly, I mean, here we were at one point, we were patriarchalized mothers ourselves, and we were giving our own daughters and sons bad advice, right?

Monica (Host) | 00:25:44 to 00:26:01
It's like color inside the lines, honey. Right? Stay inside the box. And while I didn't literally say those words, there were other ways that I was like, you must conform. You must conform.

Monica (Host) | 00:26:01 to 00:27:06
And there were so many unconscious ways that I was parenting them in ways that I thought best at the time. And we only know what we know, and when we know better, we do better. But it is seeing that bigger picture. It is seeing that broader forest. That when you're no longer just in the thicket, where you're creating a comfortable, status quo life where everything is copacetic and where we don't talk about that, honey, where we are constantly sweeping things under the rugs and stepping over, and it's like the moment you start breaking the mold, and then you start recognizing, like, for me, it was initially my divorce, my dark night of the soul, all of the things that signified my breaking the walls and the confines of this box that I found that the very people I loved the most were so afraid for me.

Monica (Host) | 00:27:06 to 00:27:31
They wanted me to go back in the box. I was stirring up something in them that made it scary to be around me. Like, suddenly, whatever it was that I was going through was going to be contagious and wreck everything, wreck this pretty picture that we've all said, this is what living really is. We're all in agreement. Yes.

Monica (Host) | 00:27:31 to 00:27:59
Right? And so what we start really revealing are these hidden agreements. If you promise not to look at my shit, I promise not to see your shit. But when we start actually calling our own selves out on our own shit, right? Then it's no longer are we we're just modeling this place of permission and approval, and people do not know what to do in the face of that.

Monica (Host) | 00:27:59 to 00:28:27
They're like, Holy shit, this feels reckless. This feels dangerous. This feels whatever it is for them. But it's a really gritty part of the path, I think, toward freedom is like this part where we no longer fit in the image that people have been comfortable with us in, especially as mothers, as the mother.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:28:29 to 00:28:41
Right? I don't know. Think of the role that mothers have had. It's interesting. My mother has been listening to my podcast, and she's literally my biggest fan.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:28:41 to 00:29:08
And she was telling me the other day that she was at a reunion, her high school reunion, and she was telling people that I had this podcast called The Psychedelic Mom, and people were like, drugs. And there was one woman in the group that had an understanding of it. And my mother said, well, that's what I would have thought. And it's so fascinating to even watch as my mother has listened. She has asked me at least ten times, when are you serving me medicine?

Michaela (Guest) | 00:29:08 to 00:29:26
When do I get to do this medicine. And so kind of I've let this kind of go for a year until about a week ago. She said, do you not want to serve me? And I thought, mom, you can go into really difficult places. And she said, I know that you've said that.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:29:26 to 00:29:56
I've heard it, and I can do that. And it's interesting to hear now, my mother having, at her age, this recognition of, wait, what choices did I actually make in my life? Yeah, wow. What choices were sovereign choices outside of what my family wanted for me, what my religion wanted for me, what culture wanted from me? It's so powerful.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:29:57 to 00:30:19
And so I said, yeah, I'll definitely serve you medicine. So that will be absolutely fascinating. Fascinating. And so it's like growth together. And even the daughter that I was with last night, she's interesting because she was the one that went through depression in high school.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:30:19 to 00:30:46
And I think largely it was because her system back then was picking up on all the falsities, all the conditioning. She was kind of a really evolved young little child that was picking up on, like, why do I have to fit into this box? Right? Or the hypocrisies, the hypocrisies, the roles of women. She was kind of young.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:30:46 to 00:31:04
So we were having that conversation last night of how so much of this she felt internally within her body young. I had shut my body off. I had no access to that kind of discomfort. And, yeah, she felt it young. And I think sometimes that is happening with this younger generation.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:31:04 to 00:31:17
They are highly evolved, a lot of them. I have conversations on my podcast with 25 year olds and I'm like, how in the world are you? Do you know what you know? Right. Yeah.

Monica (Host) | 00:31:17 to 00:31:33
Do you contain so much wisdom? I've had the same experience, and I never want to sound the least bit condescending because it's actually the opposite, but it's this almost like I'm always like lookout world.

Monica (Host) | 00:31:35 to 00:32:37
This younger generation is like just so they've inhabited themselves and they have refused to disassociate. And in their willingness to stay in their bodies, in their willingness to kind of really it's like this warrior energy that also is deeply uncomfortable and it's giving them access to clear consciousness into conversations that slice through the bullshit like none other. And it's like you go it is like exactly bow down to this youth, the ways that they are taking this bullshit to task. Well, the other thing too is I look at like, each generation pushes it forward a little bit. And so my daughter and I were talking about last night, we didn't even have the terms like gaslighting.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:32:38 to 00:33:10
We didn't have the languaging of even the word trigger. I'm feeling triggered because we were so busy. We probably weren't feeling or we were ignoring it. We didn't have the language within our couple dynamics, within our family, dynamics, within our internal dialogue. All of this is so amazing for these next generations of marriages and families and individuals to have kind of this wisdom with them.

Monica (Host) | 00:33:10 to 00:33:15
Yes, it's so true. It's so true.

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Monica (Host) | 00:36:10 to 00:36:43
I've loved this conversation so far, and I'm wondering, Michaela, like, where do you want to take the conversation next? Because I feel like we're at this place where I could take it in so many different directions. Where would you like to kind of explore more or what would you like our listeners to know? Because one of the things that comes up for me are the types, right? The types of psychedelics and the types of past.

Monica (Host) | 00:36:43 to 00:37:02
There are many past and there are many experiences, and I'm wondering if that would be. Helpful for people to kind of know about. Yeah, I think so. And what can come up because when I was new to this, it was like what are these medicines? And there is a lot more talk about them.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:37:03 to 00:37:27
But again, I think destigmatizing Mother Earth is so important and to truly understand that there has been a war on consciousness and that you have a sovereign right to explore your consciousness and your deep wounds and to explore aspects of yourself that these plants are here to offer you.

Monica (Host) | 00:37:29 to 00:37:52
And to heal. I mean, that's the other thing, it's like our birthright and here we have access to all of these healing plants. Right? And that actually the other thing I would love to bring into the conversation which just occurred to me is that often when we interact with a medicine, what we discover is our own medicine. Totally.

Monica (Host) | 00:37:52 to 00:38:39
And that we too contain our own medicine. And that's something that came out for you as you explored is you were called to this work as a Medicine Woman, which I find so fascinating. It was interesting too, because in my first psychedelic experience and that was not your typical first experience because it was three medicines actually and people would say when you call in the medicine, it shows up when you're ready. I believed that my first medicine was going to be Ayahuasca because it's known as this real feminine wisdom. And so I kind of waited for Ayahuasca to show up in my life and it really didn't.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:38:39 to 00:39:13
And so I found this Medicine Woman showed up in my life and so I did a series of MDMA Psilocybin and I actually received Bufo Toad medicine that same journey. So it was like hitting on everything. And in that journey I did see that I come from a line of Medicine Woman. Even one of my great grandmothers was one of the first pharmacists in the country who that was back when they mixed medicines themselves. And so at the time that meant nothing to me.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:39:13 to 00:39:49
I thought it was like I'm a mother, a suburban mom, I don't know what this is all about. And so I just went on the path with deep listening. And so one of the things that I've learned from the conversations that I've had on my podcast, there are some themes that come through and I think that's a fascinating thing to know when people are like well, what does the medicine teach us? Regardless of the medicine you take, what are the themes? And so what I have found that the themes are that medicine finds you wherever you are.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:39:49 to 00:40:24
That at first I had this black and white thinking like it had to be ceremonial and it had to not be experiential out in the world. And in all the interviews I've done, that's not true either. The way medicine finds you is the perfect way and obviously I think ceremony and having a guide and being in right relationship with medicines is so important. That's what I believe. But I've also seen people who have come and had a medicine journey at a concert, and it changed their entire life.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:40:24 to 00:41:24
So one is that the medicine will find you wherever you are, that they have wisdom, however they come to you. I do believe that ceremony and being in right relationship with the medicines and the peoples that have been the keepers of the medicines, the indigenous people, is incredibly important. The other thing that comes out is, like, whatever faith tradition people were a lot of times atheists, it radically changes their spiritual ideologies and perspectives on life. Everybody says, I went to people for help, but the medicine knew more. I find that fascinating that most of the people that I interviewed said that whether they were at the last hope of helping their veteran husband who was suicidal, that basically wherever somebody was, or a mom who just wanted to explore their consciousness, that ultimately the medicine took them exactly where they needed to go.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:41:24 to 00:41:56
And it's trusting the forest, trusting the wisdom within the medicines. I do think that each medicine has its unique quality and gift. And as you said, I do also believe that you become the medicine, like people will say, so you do psychedelics. And I'm like, not that much anymore, actually, even when I serve medicine now, I feel the medicine. I think medicine is everywhere.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:41:56 to 00:42:37
I think Earth medicines help us tap into that vibrational field and think eventually maybe you don't need as much medicine, or you have these maybe times in your life that you want to revisit something or have ceremony around something. But I would say that mushrooms in some ways are the most easy access because they're so plentiful. And yet I think that mushrooms also I mean, for me, anyway, my experience with mushrooms have been they go right to the shadow. And I know a lot of people have really beautiful mystical experiences on mushrooms. My experiences with mushrooms are, here it is.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:42:39 to 00:42:53
And it can be uncomfortable. It can be really uncomfortable. I think that yeah, I mean, they're the decomposers, right? Mushrooms decompose. Right.

Monica (Host) | 00:42:53 to 00:43:20
When you think about what they're all about, they're about kind of reconnecting you to the network matters. Yeah. And also the decomposition of what is no longer serving or has never served. Never served. And so it's kind of like just really interesting to look through the lens of, well, what does that medicine do in the world?

Monica (Host) | 00:43:20 to 00:44:11
And how does it operate in nature, organically, and what it does kind of within the human psyche and how it remembers us and exactly all of these ways. It's here to assist. And I love what you said, too, about it goes kind of right to the shadows that there are people that have really mystical, magical kind of but I find that most people giggle when they talk about mushrooms for whatever reason, it's like this kind of giggly kind of experience. Right. Because that's also, I think, what when people think about the imagery that we saw at some point in our lives around what a psychedelic looks like with colors and right.

Monica (Host) | 00:44:11 to 00:44:29
It's like trip. Right? It's like what a trip takes you to these places. And I think that there are these rest stops along the way, but you find yourself being like, I don't want to look at this. I don't want to be with this.

Monica (Host) | 00:44:29 to 00:45:22
Please make it stop. And yet there's also kind of this surrender that happens as we kind of get back in touch with these parts of ourselves and what a better way to find the parts of ourselves that we've kicked out of the garden? Totally. And this is where also having somebody who sits with you in your world, I believe you call it sometimes sitting with the medicine and somebody to sit with you as a guide who can kind of be a witness and help you process and integrate. And this is where I think your work is so relevant and fascinating and needed because there's just like going on a journey, you come back and your whole world is reoriented.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:45:22 to 00:45:46
Totally. And then you need to integrate and embody what you've experienced. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think my deep healing would have happened with just the medicine, to be totally honest. And I'm in deep, deep process with clients. Most of my clients aren't just come from the two prep calls, the medicine and the one integration call.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:45:46 to 00:46:11
Does growth happen in that? Absolutely. But real deep healing and real deep growth is truly a process. I'm in the deeps with people, like, I'm seeing their early memories. And yes, even before this, I had a client call of someone who just did medicine, and she's like, I thought it was going to be so mystical.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:46:11 to 00:46:56
And the medicine brought her to these memories that were difficult. And when I look at when you think of a mushroom and it decomposing and I loved what you said because all of these medicines help us remember the truth of who we are, remember our deep connection not only to each other, but to Mother Earth and to all beings. It really is also the deep connection to ourself. First, our remembering of our own system, our own body, our own deep wisdom within. And the mushroom, as the decomposer goes right to those things, as you said, that no longer serve.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:46:56 to 00:47:16
So as much as people sometimes want that mystical experience, the mushroom is like, this is what's going to be most beneficial to you right now. Well, and it's probably standing in the way of you even having a mystical experience, like until that dissolved. Exactly. And yeah, until that's dissolved. You're really living from that.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:47:17 to 00:48:02
If you look at your life as the out picturing of what's inside, and that's one of the things that with clients. I do feel like one of the gifts that I have, and I think it's come through medicine is this ability to tie the connections of someone's life that for some reason, when you're in it yourself, you can't tie it together. But it's like the very childhood wounding and how it's reflecting in the present day. And the very need that's not being met in the present day wasn't met long ago. And so a lot of times to really come into our sovereignty is to heal kind of the pain body of the past, is to go back and look at those things.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:48:02 to 00:48:43
And I look at it like this a lot of times. I love internal family systems and that to me is such an amazing pair with earth medicines. And that's the idea that within us are all of the parts, the little girl parts, all ages, and we have this metaverse of self that is still alive within us. The thing when we feel a trigger, it's actually something from the past, it's our body responding to something in present day that is unhealed from the past, otherwise that part is reintegrated and we just respond in the present moment. We're not really like feeling that intense sensation within the body.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:48:43 to 00:49:39
And so when I think of mushrooms in these medicines, especially mushrooms, as a decomposer, what we're really doing is the adult body now has the capacity to decompose, to feel, to feel everything that was pressed down, suppressed. The body keeps a score, as we know. And so what we're really doing with medicine and the integration work is going into the very place in the body where that memory is held. And we're using the adult body to feel the sensations that were never felt, to express the words that were not able to be expressed, and to really move through whatever that incident was, because it gets stuck in time, it gets stuck in the body and it gets stuck in our physiology. So ultimately that work is deep, deep work.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:49:39 to 00:50:23
And it takes incredible courage to go in and do that deep work, because when somebody is coming up against a memory or some sensation that they've avoided their whole life unconsciously, when it's there in the moment with a mushroom or with ayahuasca, or with any other medicines can be different. They just freeze up because it's as if it's live, it's as if it's happening live. And so there are other medicines like an MDMA, that is a little bit more of a disassociative. So you're experiencing the wound from another perspective, where MDMA is an empathogen. It opens up the heart, it helps us feel deep, deep compassion.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:50:23 to 00:51:08
It does separate us from going into a lot of times, the deep grief. Somatic and somatics. I feel like the mushrooms and Ayahuasca do that more when I look at Ayahuasca, in some ways I feel like it's a combination of psilocybin. This is my own experience, and it kind of, in my own experience, has brought me to the shadow, but also brought the light in all the journeys and somatically moved things through my body, like deep sensations that I had no idea that were there. And then there's a mushroom like bufo, which is toad medicine, which is completely different.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:51:08 to 00:51:36
It works, I think, on an I don't even think we truly understand how it works. I think it works on an energetic level because your consciousness is gone. You've been dissolved in a lot of ways into oneness. Somebody explained BUFA once as a hall pass for the soul. When you think about how you get a hall pass in school and you're like, I have a hall pass, it's like you're out of your body.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:51:37 to 00:52:03
Well, so interesting, because for some, that was my experience, okay? As someone who was a spiritual bypasser in my first medicine journey, the medicine woman said to me, do you know what spiritual bypassing is? Because I was a deep meditator, I was very spiritually connected. It was so funny. I had no idea what the term meant in the journey, but my ego did because I felt like a wild being.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:52:03 to 00:52:14
Come on. Like I am spiritual. Okay. I am not a bypasser. But what's interesting is I was I remember my son saying one day, mom could Zen anything away.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:52:14 to 00:52:40
And I was like, oh, I'm using my spirituality to be in peace all the time, right? To insulate myself from the deep feelings. And so one day, I had a talk with one of my teachers, and I said, could we just serve bufo? Because then people don't have to as the deep bypasser. I was like, Wait, time out.

Monica (Host) | 00:52:40 to 00:52:54
Can't we all just can't we all. Just call the right to it? It was funny. And he said to me, Would you have wanted to do that? And it was kind of the first time, honestly.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:52:54 to 00:53:24
And I had been through a three year journey of deep, deep healing work on some deep things. But where I stood, I thought, you know what? The wholeness would never have come without the mess as you speak of. The wholeness would not have come without the deep forest of terror and getting in touch with and actually feeling terror, shame, annihilation, like we all carry. There's a man who speaks of it, and he calls it the tap root.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:53:24 to 00:53:53
And he talks about our chakras, and that there's another chakra that we don't speak of, and that this chakra is the tap root below the sacral root. And it's almost that primal, human all of those primal, human aspects of ourselves. And, you know, it's interesting that we don't talk about it because we see it playing out in the world. It's the greed. It's the deep human, primal aspects of ourselves that are like the shadow.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:53:53 to 00:54:34
And I think unless we really contact and feel some of those deep things, we tend to run from them, we tend to disassociate. They're not pleasant. But I think ultimately, when we think of Mother Earth, she holds everything equitably she holds the cyclones and the storms and the delicate morning dew equitably. And I think ultimately, that's what Earth medicines teach us to do. I think there's a medicine I began that does incredible work for addiction and for resetting our minds.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:54:34 to 00:55:08
And I won't get into all the science of each of these medicines. Maybe we can come back and do that another day. But there are medicines that are unique for different things. But I think ultimately they are about the remembering and bringing us back to our innate primordial soul. They reveal truth, they reveal our soul, and they also reveal the ways in which we are not living authentic to that soul.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:55:08 to 00:55:46
And it can be quite illuminating and challenging. It's all of it. Yeah, it sure is. And I, too, have had my own journey with plant medicines at different points in my life that I went through long periods of even forgetting that they could help me through some of the things that I've really endured. I'm going to just use the word because that's what I did.

Monica (Host) | 00:55:49 to 00:56:39
I don't think I ever actually realized that there were medicine women that could help me through some of the darkest points in my life, right. That there were women and men that could sit with me through a journey where in the coaching world, anyway, we're always talking about asking the questions that help the client find their own answers. And I feel like that's what the medicine does. It's like the medicine woman or the medicine man sits there in witness so that you don't feel alone in it. But ultimately, you're going on the journey to find your own answers with the medicine and to see your own truth or a series of truths.

Monica (Host) | 00:56:40 to 00:57:28
And it's fascinating to me again, how we have these other medicines in the world to suppress those feelings to, you know, to really disconnect us from having to feel them. And yet the feelings are the messengers that want us to look under the hood, to be like, this is the check engine light. It means stop the car. It means stop, look, listen, feel what there is to feel here so that you can heal. And there are also, because of the patriarchal grind, I'll call it, it's very inconvenient.

Monica (Host) | 00:57:28 to 00:57:48
And so we have also been conditioned to look for more convenient. Yet I laugh as I say that because they're not more convenient ways to get there. No, I think these are the most powerful tools we have, actually, to get there. I agree. And I think that's why they're not legal.

Michaela (Guest) | 00:57:50 to 00:58:35
I think what you said, I'd love to hear about an experience you had, or did you have a medicine that you felt was one of your greatest teachers? Well, something that comes up right off the bat is being 15 years old and having a party and being dosed, which was not okay. When I think about the girl who in Fun had it was blots of acid. And so my journey into psychedelics was not a journey of consent initially. And what it kind of did was open in a lot of ways.

Monica (Host) | 00:58:35 to 00:59:34
I look back to that 15 year old girl and I think it opened me to a whole nother level of consciousness at a very young age. And there was a way that I felt deeply lonely at that age from a lot of other kids my age. Not only because of what was going on in my family dynamics, but because I feel like I felt this wisdom that I had acquired through this up leveling or this opening of my consciousness that felt really isolating in some ways as a 15 year old. I felt like I just didn't have the community of people around me. It was almost like I just felt like a freak based on what I felt like I could see what I felt like I was saying and seeing in the patterns that were happening.

Monica (Host) | 00:59:34 to 01:00:05
And so in some ways it wasn't convenient and it was everything. So it's like there's that paradox. It also, I think, later in life it was another medicine. I never really had a good experience with marijuana and pot. I never really got it why people did it until I did in a smaller way.

Monica (Host) | 01:00:05 to 01:01:11
But it wasn't really until I came into kind of understanding plant medicine as this more sacred way of being with it that I really began to consciously choose. I think I'm ready to see and experience whatever it is this plant medicine has to offer me and to start setting intentions with it and to sit with it with somebody who was serving it like a medicine woman like yourself. And to do it in a way that felt very quest like and really opened me then to really dissolving. I feel like a lot of these unsurfaced fears that were really kind of keeping me from speaking my truth and being more visible in the world, things that I couldn't understand about myself, even though I'm really social and outgoing. Why did I have terror in certain situations, right?

Monica (Host) | 01:01:11 to 01:01:56
And it was by doing some plant medicine that I was able to understand that more deeply or to understand what my role was in certain relationships that I actually was able to see that through plant medicine. That for example, I had an experience a couple of years ago that finally kind of set me free from needing to always be on my partner about doing his work because it was like I was kind of shown, right, how about you just do your own revelation project and let everybody else do theirs? Exactly. And I was like, oh right. And also that I was shown that actually I'm built for it.

Monica (Host) | 01:01:57 to 01:02:10
It wasn't necessarily telling me that other people weren't. It was just like you are here to do the medicine for your family. Like that kind of a message. I was like, okay, got it. Yeah.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:02:10 to 01:03:28
Sometimes I look at it like, well, maybe I needed it the most, maybe it was and I can think of certain medicines like an Aboga and I know for sure that there's no way I could have accessed any other way. Especially because I had learned to be so kind of a mirror of what everything that was taught to me to be. So it took a psychedelic for me where I think if I had had a conversation with somebody and they were talking about these issues, I probably would have thought, I don't know, I feel like I'm evolved where the medicine was like, let me show you how much there is to dissolve here. Because ultimately, and I'm deeply in this process myself and it's messy and it's beautiful, but I think it's a continual unbinding of everything we think we know. And so whenever I think I'm conscious or know something, I think it's another opportunity to really unbind from another part of myself.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:03:29 to 01:04:20
Do you think the other thing that earth medicines do better than anything that I've experienced, even better than meditation is that home that they create inside. And it's like that deep wisdom that well, that is there for whenever you need it and to connect us to that within our bodies, that has been the greatest gift. Because beyond the journey, how do I live my life? And again, that has been a process because again, that part's work. A lot of times what happens, and this was my own experience, I might see something unconscious about myself that came out of conditioning, but now that part plays out in the world in this way because that was safety.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:04:21 to 01:04:48
Well, now I have this new conscious part that's like can you not do that anymore? Can you not say yes when you mean no? Can you not try to get your need met by that and just be authentic? So it's very interesting. So during this process you may have parts inside kind of arguing with each other and then speaking to those parts and saying okay, part that knows and is more evolved, can you just be patient with this other part that isn't there yet?

Michaela (Guest) | 01:04:48 to 01:05:35
That it's not a magic pill in the sense of time and space, that this other part is obviously not quite ready to do that change. And then it's so interesting because once it is you feel that deeper sense of integration. I think that's why it's called psychedelic integration is because what we're doing is we're integrating all the parts of ourselves. The wounded parts come whole, the unacknowledged parts learn to get their acknowledgment and validation from theirselves. And there's this wholeness that happens from within and in that wholeness relationships emerge from there and when the patterns show up again, whether it's a way of conditioning within our family.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:05:35 to 01:06:13
So let's say we had a way of relating that comes from generations and generations. And by the way, that's another piece that medicine shows you is the generational lineage that you come from the shadow of it as well as the beauty of it and it's unbinding from the parts that don't serve the whole and being the one to say no more, no more, even if it's this isn't my family. But whether that's addiction or whether it is just unconscious ways of being and it's uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable for people.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:06:16 to 01:06:58
We all come here for our unique growth. One of my teachers says love is your blueprint, choice is your power and life is happening to you, not for you. And I always remember that in the times that are difficult, like life is happening for me, this is an opportunity for growth and that love is ultimately my blueprint and earth medicines. Seed that within you and I can go out later today and be unconscious about something. It's also deep compassion that when I think of what does it mean to live a psychedelic life?

Michaela (Guest) | 01:06:59 to 01:07:40
I think it means to embrace growth, to embrace authenticity, to be deeply honest with ourselves, knowing that we're only as conscious as we are. We can only see what we can see. And to continue to put ourselves in the forest, to continue to put ourselves humble ourselves to earth medicines, to someone else's input like my daughters. Humble ourselves to hear the feedback that we need. I think to live a psychedelic life is really to continue to evolve and to live from our truest nature as best we can.

Monica (Host) | 01:07:40 to 01:09:05
Yeah, there's a deep integrity as I listen to you, right, that's the word that comes up. And I love that you use the word humble because that is so true for me in terms of it's so humbling but in a very profound and positive way, I think we can think about being humbled as like a bad thing for me. It's where I'm back in integrity, where I'm back in right relationship with myself and the world around me, where I have a true gratefulness that reminds me of what it is to be here, like what a gift it is to be here. It brings me back to life in this place of true love and harmony. And it's not necessarily the place that we stay, right, because we, like you said, go off, but it's these glimpses, these moments where we're back on track and back in the flow and it's a helpful ally.

Monica (Host) | 01:09:05 to 01:09:49
And that's the word that comes up for me about plant medicine is it's such a beautiful, helpful, tender, compassionate, fierce and loving ally. Yeah, it's interesting too, what I've started to see not only on my own path but now holding space and being a medicine woman that there are these stages of evolution and growth. And it's first we're living in the matrix and yes, Patrix, I like that. It's not mine. Shout out, yes.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:09:50 to 01:10:21
And then I think what Earth medicines do is suddenly you realize, whoa, I'm in a matrix, Patrix. I'm in a system that I wasn't even conscious that I was in. Right. And then the next level is the deep healing from that system and the deep acknowledgment of your personality that was constructed outside of that, separate from your true nature. It's all the aspects out of survival.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:10:21 to 01:10:58
Out of survival, exactly. And then I think that's a continual process. And I just started working with someone who's I think there are very few people, maybe on the planet that are truly liberated, that live in the nondual state. And so I just started to work with a teacher and it's so interesting because I think in the psychedelic space, you start to feel like, oh, I'm really evolved, I'm really conscious. And then there's like a whole nother level and I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's another matrix that I have to break out of.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:10:58 to 01:11:46
Like, it's another kind of there's a whole nother level of really living from the true state of nonduality. And one of the other things that's really interesting about Earth medicines I just interviewed Alexander Boehner. He was a co host and co producer on Rebel Wisdom, which was a great podcast, and he just did this extended DMT experience through college, the Imperial College of London. And so DMT usually is a ten minute experience and DMT really shows different realms. I have not experienced DMT, but it's like people talk about cities and meeting all sorts of different entities and it being more real than real, which is true about a lot of the medicines.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:11:46 to 01:12:38
It feels more real than real. And when I said what it was kind of the most profound part of this, he said he just wrote a book called The Bigger Picture that's coming out, and he said it's a part that actually didn't make it in my book, but it was his personal experience. One is how tiny and insignificant we are because he saw the magnitude of multiple dimensions, but how significant our own work is, how significant when we make a change, how it truly affects the whole, which I thought was such a beautiful thing. And his own experience, at one point, it was his own personal experience that the medicine was kind of showing him that he had barriers, the barriers to, like, love, maybe. And he's just kind of like, well, why should I drop these walls?

Michaela (Guest) | 01:12:38 to 01:13:23
And it just wrote love. And I think ultimately, the other deep message of these medicines is that's it love, like love from the most authentic place you can, but when we have these shadows and these aspects of ourselves in the way, these survivor parts, we can't. And so I'm just acknowledging for myself, this is a continual. Journey of humbling myself to knowing that I am where I am. But I embrace the dense forest, I embrace the heroine's journey and I embrace the reflection of where I am not fully evolved and conscious yet.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:13:23 to 01:13:53
And I think that's what it means to live a psychedelic life and to be in psychedelic relationships. I think to be a psychedelic mom is also to talk about the things that aren't serving the motherhood construct and as much as we can for our daughters and the next generations. You've talked about it, the trance of unworthiness. What was the other one that I said to you? I was doing a shower for my daughter.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:13:53 to 01:14:19
It was like the unseen work of women. Oh, right, the invisible work of women. The invisible work of women and all these themes. It's to break from those ideologies and live from a place of humility, gratitude, love, continued growth, true authenticity. And that's hard.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:14:19 to 01:14:57
I mean, for me, my soul spine, it's called. What I came here to do is to be in sovereignty, in authentic communication within deep relationship. Well, when you grew up that you only said what was pleasant. You didn't invite conflict, you just survived by pretty pleasing and polite suddenly speaking your truth. And authenticity is the space of terror, is that space of growth, are the parts saying what's happening here?

Michaela (Guest) | 01:14:57 to 01:15:22
And it's choice. Choice is our power and our freedom. Well, and I love what you said about love. And so it's anything that helps us dissolve these barriers that stand between our true self and love. And being like love is essentially at the core of who we are.

Monica (Host) | 01:15:23 to 01:15:40
So I think we're continually revealing and you say it's hard and I want to say until it's not. I feel like there's also this place where we're like, oh God, that's not hard for me anymore. Anymore. Right. And it's an amazing thing.

Monica (Host) | 01:15:40 to 01:15:49
Yeah, right. It's like noticing like, oh my gosh, look what happened when I wasn't even paying attention. Right. In that way. Until you see like my gosh.

Monica (Host) | 01:15:49 to 01:16:25
And that's the moment where again, I want to just model kind of this idea of turning toward ourselves and celebrating these incredible human milestones where we've covered so much ground and just taking a minute to savor. Right. It's truly amazing. Even taking a day or a week or a month to savor and celebrate ourselves and love ourselves for how courageous we have been. Because that's what comes up for me, Michaela, over and over and over again.

Monica (Host) | 01:16:25 to 01:16:56
And this is where I really honor you and your work is because not only have you done it for yourself, but now you're holding this potential and possibility for others. And I know what that takes to hold that kind of space and what huge love you must have to hold it for others. It's just such a beautiful thing. So I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here today for sharing with us. So authentically.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:16:57 to 01:17:22
Yeah, thank you for having me here and creating this space for all this to flow through and welcoming all of it. I think that's the biggest thing is welcoming it all. All is welcome. And where can they go to learn more about you or anything that you want to share about in final. Definitely tune into the Psychedelic Mom podcast.

Michaela (Guest) | 01:17:22 to 01:17:48
I have such beautiful conversations with such incredible people, from scientists to mothers to people on the earth, medicine, path medicine, women and men. So that's a beautiful place to find me and hear conversations. And also my website is thepsychedelicmom.com and my instagram is the Psychedelic Mom. So that's where you can find me for right now. Amazing.

Monica (Host) | 01:17:48 to 01:18:02
Well, we'll be sure to put all of Michaela's links in the show notes and Michaela, thank you. And for our listeners, more to be revealed. Thank you Monica.

Monica (Outro) | 01:18:04 to 01:18:21
We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on itunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, ways more to be revealed.