85 Ximena
We all probably feel this to some degree in at least one of our relationships, there may be a relationships where we don't feel that, but others where we feel like, oh gosh, I'm really being steamrolled or my needs just aren't being met here.

The real answer is probably not the most comfortable one. But it's that we have to speak those needs aloud. So sometimes we think we're being really clear about our needs and we've probably all had these conversations where you think, gosh, it's so obvious that I'm asking for help here. By listing off all the things that I've got on my plate that I need to handle, but oh yeah.

I guess I never actually explicitly said I could really use your help . And we kind of talk around our need a lot of times, instead of explicitly saying. What I really need right now is just to feel supported or I'm feeling a little insecure about this. What I'm really looking for from you is some words of encouragement.

Monica: [00:00:00] Welcome to the revelation project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed. He gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to.Episode of the revelation project podcast today. I'm so proud to introduce you to Hemena van quot. Chia Hemena is a user researcher, writer, and illustrator whose work on personal and professional development has been published in the Washington post Newsweek and Huffington post. She's the author of the new book.Listen like you mean it reclaiming the lost art of true connection. She's a contributor at fast company and the muse and writes letters from Hemena a newsletter on tech culture, career and creativity. She is best known for her project, the life audit and experienced manager, mentor and researcher in the tech industry.

She previously worked at Pinterest, LinkedIn, and Twitter. Hello Ximena

Ximena: [00:01:21] Thanks so much for having me. 

Monica: [00:01:23] This has just been such a great beginning conversation. And then of course, diving into your book and just the it's a powerful, powerful subject. And the other day I actually said the words my husband said, what do you think will stop war?

And I said, listening, Like, that was what I said. And I thought to myself, wow, that's so interesting, right? That that's actually what stuck out to me after reading your book is like that that's, that it's that powerful that it can stop wars and create. 

Ximena: [00:02:02] Yeah. I mean, I agree, which, you know, I think sometimes feels really bold to say like, wow, this skill can change the world in this really meaningful way.

But I think it's true. I think it's something that we culturally, we tend to focus on the other side of things. We tend to focus on pitching negotiating, influencing, presenting, like how we can. Change other people really, you know, or, or kind of get our own way, make a, a particular kind of impact. And listening is the quiet counterpoint to that.

And it's so, so important to help rebalance our day-to-day conversations. And, you know, if we do go out on a more global scale to think about how our relationships. Might change for the better, not just person to person, but country to country. Right. And more globally. So yeah, I do think it's, um, it's very near and dear to my heart and I think has just a ton of potential for us as individuals and more broadly.

Monica: [00:03:06] Well, and I think of the question you asked me, like, who are my listeners? And I think that, you know, my listeners are up to making a difference in the world. And so when we think about. Listening as a way to really. Something we can work on every day in our practice and really make a tremendous impact just by cultivating that one skill is really powerful.

Ximena: [00:03:37] Yeah. And I think, you know, people often ask me like, well, what do you do if you want to improve your listening skills? But you know, there's always someone in your life who you think could be a better listener. Like how do you get them to improve their listening skills? And the thing that I always say is that it's, it's much easier to work on yourself than it is to work on someone else.

Right. Trying to change someone else is really challenging. Uh, maybe impossible, but you can do that work for yourself and. What do you think is important about that? Is that when you are able to cultivate your listening and really bring this practice forward in your day-to-day conversations, it's not just that you are providing a gift to someone else, because there is an act of generosity that happens when you listen.

It's that, but also you're modeling a behavior. That you want to see more of, right. You're putting that forward. And I think people are really drawn to that. And there's a sort of magnetism that occurs when you're in the presence of a really good. Listener and you want to return that to them. And so I think that, you know, for anyone who's, who has that idea of, but wait, you know, what about the people who aren't great listeners, I go back to, what can we do in our day-to-day conversations and how can we push that forward through our own actions?

Monica: [00:05:02] It's really true. And I kind of smirk a little bit because when it comes to the revelation project, often in my coaching with other women, When we notice ourselves trying to do somebody else's project for them, right. It's like, do your own project work on your own listening. And it is by changing and transforming ourselves that then we see how that transpires and transmutes and transmits out into the world.

And it's just so, so, so true. And then the other thing that you said that I think is so true and powerful, If feeling seen is a basic human need, then listening is like the sister to being feeling seen. And when we feel seen by somebody, when we feel heard by somebody, it actually starts to cultivate peace inside of us.

It's like I grew up in. You know, kind of a really chaotic what I now know to have been a very traumatic childhood. It wasn't physically traumatic, but it was emotionally traumatic. It was mentally traumatic. And what I have come to really realize is that. So much of the chaos, like the inner chaos that I felt was that I never had like a witness, somebody who I knew I could look at, and I knew that they got it, that they understood and there was something so settling.

Once I finally found somebody that I felt could see me in my own human mass, in my own struggle, that just suddenly. Made the struggles so much less potent, if that, if that makes sense. 

Ximena: [00:06:57] Yes. And I, and I think that, you know, what, you're kind of tuning into there. This, the importance of being seen of being heard of being understood, accepted, valued.

That was a huge driving force for putting this book out into the world. Because I think that again, culturally we've, we've, we've kind of veered toward. Uh, meanness, you know, of, uh, what, what else can I do? And kind of most of shouting, which. Is in some ways a natural response to what we're talking about of when you don't feel seen or when you don't feel heard, one of the responses can be okay, I'm going to speak louder.

Monica: [00:07:39] I'm going to turn up the volume. 

Ximena: [00:07:41] I'm going to turn up the volume. Right. And so there's a little bit of shouting that's happening in the world right now, where we're all kind of struggling to be seen and heard in some way. And the way that we're managing that is actually defeating our purpose and, and kind of pushing us further apart.

And I think that is part of this loneliness epidemic that is, you know, certainly happening in the U S and UK as well. Um, and in other parts of the world where we don't feel seen and we don't feel understood or valued, and we feel very alone and, and, and perhaps more so with social media, which. Kind of paints the picture that nobody feels this way, but we know that's not true.

And so to me that makes the sort of mission of listening that much more urgent to get out into the world, knowing that so many of us feel this way. 

Monica: [00:08:37] Yeah. Yeah. I, I think you're right. You know, there is an urgency to really. Having more of this skill in the world that because, because of its power to sooth, you know, kind of the Savage beast that inside of us, that is, I think really just crying out because when we.

See people turning up the volume. There's not just shouting, they're turning up volume. In other ways, they're, they're actually creating acts of terrorism and war. And we don't think that that's what turning up the volume looks like when you don't feel seen or heard. And yet we're also having some very necessary.

Disruption. And it's really creating an environment that disruption is creating an environment for so many of us to lean into and start to cultivate the listening skills. Because of course we have so many friends who might've politely been standing by who. May not be in such privileged situations.

Who've been trying to tell us for years what their experience is, and it wasn't until all of the disharmony in the discord that so many of us were willing to sit down pause, nor did I think we have the space to pause, but that's not an excuse. During the pandemic. I think there was this extra added ally of this pause to really listen to what our friends have been telling us.

Ximena: [00:10:19] And I think listening is, you know, you, you bring up the, this idea of this pause for that happened with the pandemic. And, and I think it's, I think you're right. And it's important in the context of listening because it's not a fast. Skill it's very slow. And I think in fact, that's maybe part of why it has that calming effect on the other person on you, as the listener on the other person who's being heard, it's deliberately quiet.

It's deliberately slow. It requires a growing awareness of you as the listener of, you know, it's not just okay. I'm I'm hearing what the other person is saying. Yes. I'm listening to the words they're saying, I'm listening for the meaning. I'm listening for. What's not being said, I'm listening for their emotions and what's coming out.

I'm listening to the thoughts that I'm having that are coming up here and that are preventing me from listening to them. I'm listening to what's happening emotionally to me right now. And what's that opening in my body and what that is telling me. And. Can't happen all at once. Like that's a lot to take in.

And so it is a deliberate and intentional practice that requires a kind of pause. And I do think that, I mean, my hope is that that's that stillness that some of us have been. Feeling through the pandemic or searching through because it can be uncomfortable. We don't really like to slow down in that way.

My hope is that we can take something from that experience say, okay, that really was uncomfortable to have to move at a different pace and to have to think about things differently and understand my place in the world differently. But I was able to learn something from that. And similarly with listening, it is slow and it is uncomfortable sometimes, but you always learned something about yourself and the other person in the process, which I think is really important.

Monica: [00:12:18] You do. And a couple of things I wanted to add here is it's so true, right? There's so many levels of listening and we, we tend to think of it as a very kind of like static activity, but it's a very dynamic actually activity. You are having to really hold space. There has to be an intention there to actually notice when you're not listening so that you can kind of come back to the listening.

And then there's also this active listening of what you were just pointing to riches. Like what's not being said, what's, what's kind of coming into the space or what in the coach's world, we call the third level listening where we might be. Listening, like the other day, I'm listening to my daughter talk the other day.

And there was a Fox in the background in the window through the window. And I'm like, Ooh, some animal medicine here as I'm listening to her and allowing all of that to actually inform us. And when I think about informing, right, we think about information, but when we think about it as an impression, Upon our being upon our soul, we start to understand that listening is also part of what I call this much needed feminine awakening and awareness in the world, because it's also a receiving and a giving.

And that there's, that. Masculine and feminine integrated that has to happen. And a lot of us are super good at giving or talking, but we're not necessarily good at giving the kind of giving where you're actually also receiving. 

Ximena: [00:14:06] I think a lot of people are afraid of that to some degree, because it is.

It's work it's effort, but if you do too much of it, also, it can be draining. Right. So that's kind of the you're right. In terms of that giving and receiving, and there are certain professions whose core is listening, right? Like care-taking professions, doctors, right? Like listening is just a super important part of what they do or social workers.

And there can be. A tipping point where it goes from you are listening in order to help and receive and help someone else process to your listening. And that impression you're talking about actually starts to get internalized where you start to pick up on. What they're feeling, but to such a degree that like, you're really feeling it yourself.

So, you know, people talk about it as vicarious trauma or compassion, fatigue, and that's the sort of like extreme risk of listening. I would say is you, you become what I call is a listening martyr, where you're giving so much of yourself over that you become this vessel for the other person. And they are just, you know, kind of.

Feeding all of their energy. Good and bad into you. And I think to some degree, a lot of us are scared of that, or we've had that experience and we don't want that to happen again. And so we kind of, we pull back or we withdraw our, we, we S we self-protect, and I think it's absolutely important to be aware that that is a risk that you can go too far.

And that if you go too far, It changes that dynamic. It's no longer this equilibrium, this harmony that we're looking for between two people. But that being said, if you're aware of it and can understand your limits, recognize it, your limits, and honor your boundaries. Then I think that actually goes away.

If you can set that intention. Yeah. I'm here for this person. I'm also a separate person. I don't need to tell. You know, all of that on, I think it makes the, the prospect of listening with that intention that much more inviting. 

Monica: [00:16:17] Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up too, because it's so true. Right? We've all known kind of the emotional vampire where we might have had that experience of being totally drained by somebody.

But I would totally point to that experience in my life as recognizing that that was when I actually didn't know how. Boundaries really worked and how to really kind of listen. Right? There's this way of listening, right? You can listen while giving somebody the right to be creative, resourceful, and whole, I don't have to listen from a, I need to fix this perspective because oftentimes that's the drain when we're emotionally tied in to what they're telling us.

I think that can be sometimes tricky for some of them. But I, I believe truly that there's this way that when we give somebody the right, when we can understand that we don't have their answers for them, nor do we need to give them answers or advice that that's sometimes part of the drain that we think we need to provide that.

And so there's this kind of kinetic back energy. That's trying to facilitate an answer or a fix it. And it's like drop that because. That doesn't actually, first of all, it's not true. How, how many times have you given advice and have the person take it? It's very rare. Like they have to come up with their own answers.

And I think sometimes as listeners, we have the opportunity to get curious and yes, empathetic because we want to be an empathetic listener, but without kind of getting emotionally collapsed into this. Energy there, but there's that place. I think that we get to ask questions and allow them to come up with their own answers or to just know that such a gift is being able to let somebody speak or process whatever's going on with them.

And just so I'd actually love to go right into like ways that our listeners could start to really. Bring this into their life a little bit more. How, how about that? That, 

Ximena: [00:18:39] Yes. No, that's great. And I think actually we can, we can go based off the scenario that you've kind of set up for us. A lot of us do feel the need to do something as a listener, and that might be offer advice or fix.

And one of the things that I talk about in the book is being aware of your default listening mode. So your default listening mode is just the way you naturally show up in conversation. When you're not thinking about it, it's the filter. You tend to hear things through to usually based on your personality, your early relationships, certain dynamics that were put into place.

And one of the listening modes is the problem solvers. It's exactly what you were talking about. You hear everything through this lens up. Ah, that's a problem. I'm going to help fix it. I'm going to help provide a solution or advice. But the problem is that not everything is a problem. You know, sometimes the person is just.

Venting or processing or wants you to see how hard they're working, but not actually solve for them. There's many reasons. Right. But someone could bring something into a conversation. So that's one mode. Another mode is the identifier. So the identifier is. Listening for ways to relate, really listening for ways to say me too, because that feels good.

You know, if someone says, oh, I'm really struggling with a problem with my spouse, someone else in an identifier might say, oh, I know exactly what that's like. It's like how, when I. Dot.dot that can be really affirming that can make the other person feel, oh, I'm not alone. In my experience. Someone else has experienced this too.

It can also feel really dismissive, like, oh, okay. Now we're talking about you. And it's really hard to quote unquote, appropriately, identify with someone because. Someone could say I'm having a problem with my spouse and the listener might say, oh, that's like how, when I had this problem with my roommate and the other person might be like, that's not, that's not at all, like, right.

So are there these modes that we, we tend to hear things through. They're all good. There's 11 of them. We won't go into all of them, but they're all, they all have their virtues. They also all have their. Pitfalls if they're not applied at the right moment. And so I think one really important thing to do is to try and understand what is that mode that you tend to bring into conversation without thinking about it, recognizing when you're bringing it in and asking is this what's needed.

Because the, the sort of other part of, of the equation in terms of knowing when to bring in what mode is in every conversation, there's a need. I think we don't always pay attention to this. We often think we're just chatting, shooting the breeze, like where, or this is really transactional in some way, there's always a hidden need.

There's something that's going on. There's a reason that this person is bringing this topic to you. Specifically that they're sharing this with you specifically. And so part of it is understanding what is that underlying need and is my mode.. Actually what's needed right here right now. Or is there something else that might be needed instead?

Monica: [00:21:59] I have a question for you. What would you, how would you it's so funny. Cause I was like, don't give advice and yet about to ask you for advice. So I know that there are several of my listeners who do not feel seen or heard in their families and. Sometimes because they're not seen or heard. And in fact, sometimes their values are directly stepped upon literally like disregarded.

And there's a way that that can get so challenging, especially when you think about the impact on intergenerational stuff. So. And I know I'm being a little cryptic here, but my, my intention here is to really ask you about the person who needs to be heard, needs to be seen in order to help somebody else in the family.

How would you advise them to get that kind of attention or speak their needs? 

Ximena: [00:23:12] It's a really important question because I think. We all probably feel this to some degree in at least one of our relationships, there may be a relationships where we don't feel that, but others where we feel like, oh gosh, I'm really being steamrolled or my needs just aren't being met here.

The real answer is probably not the most comfortable one. But it's that we have to speak those needs aloud. So sometimes we think we're being really clear about our needs and we've probably all had these conversations where you think, gosh, it's so obvious that I'm asking for help here. By listing off all the things that I've got on my plate that I need to handle, but oh yeah.

I guess I never actually explicitly said I could really use your help . And we kind of talk around our need a lot of times, instead of explicitly saying. What I really need right now is just to feel supported or I'm feeling a little insecure about this. What I'm really looking for from you is some words of encouragement.

It's not easy to say. And I think sometimes we don't necessarily even know that's what we need. That's why we talk around it. But if you can start to. Tune into what is it that that coordinate is for you in that specific relationship and that dynamic and that conversation. And can you name it? Can you say it out loud?

And I know that can be scary because that means that you're putting yourself out there and there's a risk that the other person might say no, or reject you in some way, even if it's not explicit, but that is. It's the best way of taking matters into your own hands and not expecting the other person to kind of read between the lines and build these emotional intelligence skills, like things that we would like, we would love if, if everybody could see like, wow, I'm sad or I'm scared, you know, without having to say it.

But I think practicing that, building that muscle of saying it, and maybe you, maybe you start doing that in relationships where you do feel safe to build that muscle and then work your way up to get that confidence. You know, that's probably the, the progression that I would suggest. 

Monica: [00:25:30] Yeah. Well re re revealing the core of you. It's super vulnerable, right.

It's super vulnerable. And so. It is, I think you're right about kind of really identifying if, you know, if I were to have an outcome here, what would the outcome be and how could I best communicate? Like I really need, you know, you to honor. Whether or not, you disagree with my choices. I need you to honor that I have a right to have those, you know, my own choices or my own experience, whatever the need is.

And then also I think to speak to what it's like maybe to continually be on. They're the receiving end of not feeling seen or heard and to be really vulnerable about what that feels like. 

Ximena: [00:26:28] Yeah. And also, you know, I think this is where going back to boundary setting comes into play too, because maybe you bring that forward and.

It's received. Well, maybe it's not, it's, you're the only person who can determine sort of when is enough in terms of like how vulnerable, how frequently you're able to do that or willing to do that. And so I think that's the sort of other part of this equation of, you know, when you think about that need, when you've identified that need and express that need.

You know, is this person really going to be the person who can meet that need 

Monica: [00:27:07] Right. Capable or raw, as I say, ready, able, willing are they ready to do that? You kind of have to have all three and be able to answer if they're ready, able, and willing. And it's so true that we may be trying to get our needs met from somebody who may want to.

Don't have what we need. They may have a component of ready, able, willing, but not the whole bit. And so I think that becomes really then kind of the onus is back on us to be able to meet our own needs or find somebody who can meet those needs.

Ximena: [00:27:46] Yeah. And I think, I think there are things that we can, we can try and meet our own needs in certain ways, right?

Like journaling is a, is a great practice for getting those needs out there for seeing them for processing them. Sometimes that can be enough, but sometimes it does mean kind of looking at your community, your support circle and redirecting those needs. Like maybe you really want to feel seen by a parent.

Makes perfect sense. That is a super important relationship, but when you get down to it, you realize, yeah. Not ready, able, or willing or, or, or some combination. And so then who will, who else in your life can play that role in this moment? So I think it's really important to take a bigger picture. Once you've identified that and see who in your circle can, can support you in that way.

And do a relationship audit is what I call it, where you're kind of evaluating your relationships and getting a sense of, okay, you know, is this person more of an energy Energizer or a taker? Like, is there an equilibrium in this relationship? Can I feel supported by this person? And then maybe distance yourself, if not, and maybe you can do that and feel good about it because you've kind of identified.

Here's the need and it's not going to get mad. So maybe it's time to close that chapter.

Monica: [00:29:13] I love that the relationship audit, because it's so true, like until we really sit with kind of our lived experience with somebody and the relationship and kind of go through answering some of these questions, it could be really revealing to do or relationship audit and actually come to this light.

Oh, my God. Like I never saw that actually. Like whenever I'm with this person, they're drawing energy from me. Like I'm always drained. I'm not energized. And then you get to decide to either love them from afar. Right? Because sometimes we don't, we can't necessarily like divorce. Our parents. And there would be people out there that would disagree with me.

Like there are some parents, you can absolutely divorce, but there are some parents that do to like, let's say. An injury or a generational issue that just is never going to allow them to see, you know, and how many of my gay friends whose parents just will never kind of like, I won't say never awaken to, but you know, their own generational upbringing has pretty much put a wall between their ability to see that.

That person and respect their choices. And so that relationship audit becomes really, I think, an important tool in helping us determine how close in proximity we want to continue to put ourselves, because it's true also that when we. Are continually violated or not heard or not seen that it actually has kind of a cumulative impact on our psyche and on our hearts and minds and the whole of it, our spirit I've had literally somebody like.

Take my  you know, whenever I'm in their presence, it's like, my spirit is gone and it takes me like weeks to kind of come back into myself. 

Ximena: [00:31:14] Yeah. And another thing to be aware of as you're doing these kinds of relationship audits, too, is. Partly. Yeah. How do you feel in these interactions and, and when, when are your needs being met and how much an equilibrium or not are these relationships, but also how frequently are you seeing these people?

Because sometimes what happens is often when we're not really intentional about it, is there are people in our lives who are very, they're very convenient to see. So we see them a lot, certain coworkers, neighbors, what have you. And we might find that the people that we see the most, aren't the ones who are most energizing to us.

Maybe there's that one friend to, gosh, we will always walk away from conversations, feeling so inspired and so seen. And we only see them a couple of times a year, but we hang out with coworker from work who was kind of draining, you know, actually now that we think about it as really draining, but we have a monthly happy hour with them, like why do we do that?

Right. And so I think bringing that element too of just. Doing a little bit of a gut check on where am I spending my time? Like who, who is getting my time out of these relationships can also be very telling and help us again, sort of redirect our energy, which is a scarcity. 

Monica: [00:32:36] Yeah, sure is. So this leads me to two things.

One. What is your, why? Why is listening so important to you? W like, tell me, do you have like a personal relationship to listening or not feeling listened to that you want to share with us? 

Ximena: [00:32:55] I think for me, listening is probably sort of personally important for a few reasons. One is that I'm one of four girls.

So I grew up in a. Lively very active house and it was super fun. And I always had company and it was kind of always a little party with my sisters, but it also meant that, you know, the, the general speed was pretty high, right? Like things were always active. Things were always moving. And I, I think I was really drawn to, we talked about how quiet listening can be and how Connie can be.

I think I was really drawn to those moments as sort of. Counterpoints to, you know, the, the general tenor of, of, uh, my environment and my parents always really good at offering that. Like if I, if I needed it, you know, I think like one of my love languages is quality time. It's super simple to me. I'm really drawn to that.

And so I think I found a lot of comfort in that quiet. Exchange and that listening there, and it probably made me feel really seen because you know, of everything else that was happening at any given time, I probably valued it even more because it was limited to some degree. Right. You just, you've got a lot of people to manage a household.

So I think that's part of it. And I think the other part of it for me is I'm a first gen American, so my parents are from south America. And so. Listening and observing and making sense of people was something that I was doing at a really early age and part. It was a way to understand. Family that lived in other countries and Argentina and Colombia, where, you know, I was trying to pick up on, read the room, communicate through all these other cues besides just speaking.

Right. And so listening becomes very important in those settings. And I think to a certain degree, I was probably doing that in my day to day also because. I knew I was different. I had family that lived in another country. We spoke a different language. Um, and so I was bringing that observation into like my best friend from middle school.

I was like, oh, that's interesting. Like here's how she relates to her mom. Right. So. I think I was always bringing those, those two elements in, and that made me really interested in understanding other people and what makes them tick and using listening as the primary vehicle for doing that.

Monica: [00:35:33] Awesome. I love that.

I love that so much. I had a lot of revelations when I started getting certified for coaching, because so much of the skillset, the, like the foundation of the skill set is built on listening. And of course you do all of these exercises that what they really reveal is in a lot of cases where your work is, where.

And I'll just be Frank, what a shitty listener you are.

Shit, you know, there was, it was endlessly fascinating. And so I say this because ]while it is simple, once, because once you get it, once you really kind of do understand the nuances and can just check in with yourself and get that kind of. Skill set that you can actually do time simultaneously where you're listening and noticing at the same time, listening and noticing kind of symbiotically.

And there's like this integration of listening and noticing that kind of gets to stand side by side with each other, that it then becomes really easy. But until you kind of really work on these two things, which I would say listening and noticing, and of course. Being able to speak to what you're noticing as you're listening.

So there's also this way that we can bring it in and mirroring becomes a beautiful way. Like summarizing what you've, you're hearing somebody say, you start to recognize. What filters, you're listening to things through, especially when you're doing exercises with people where they're like, no, that's not what I just said.

Right. So it's so funny because as a parent, I would often say to my children, what did you just hear me say? And so if they were like, well, I just heard you say that I'm like dumb because I didn't blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, that is not what I said. And there's also this element of, wow. Maybe I can also say that a different way so that there's not this undercurrent, because sometimes there's like a 1% truth sometimes in how people are hearing us.

So it's endlessly fascinating this subject matter. But the other piece that I wanted to point to here. The word awkward. Because I loved how you really opened up the book and in the book, I don't want to give it away, but you're, you're talking about really listening to a woman and what it takes to really kind of get them to really share with you that vulnerable truth.

And you talk about. Awkward silence and just, we're so uncomfortable with silence. And I go back to what you were saying before about slowing down and the way that all of these energies to me feel so feminine and they feel so missing in our world. So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about awkward.

Ximena: [00:38:53] Yes. So yeah, we call these moments, awkward silences. They're really just silences. We are, we are creating this, this option, word, this, but it's uncomfortable for us. I think when a silence comes up in conversation, it's it signals to us like, oh my gosh, am I boring? The person am I being misunderstood? Maybe we don't have chemistry.

Oh, they're holding back now. I feel uncomfortable that they're holding back. There's a number of. Uncomfortable thoughts that can come up when there's a silence. We generally think the worst of a silence, but actually a silence and conversation can be very positive. It can mean that the person is still processing.

It can mean that they're gearing up to share something that they just need a little more time and a little more space to say that vulnerable thing that they've had on their mind and have kind of been working toward. The whole time, it can mean that they're really comfortable around you, you know, think of a close relationship you have and how happy you can be in silence with another person in that scenario.

So it doesn't have to be this negative thing. And I think if we remind ourselves of that, that that's really important and very tactically, you can gain an advantage in conversation by. Sitting through that silence and really giving that other person the chance to step into it. And so I'm someone who by nature is not the most patient person, but I've learned, especially when it comes to silence that I have to really channel as much patience as possible.

And so I'll just count to 10. Just count to 10. If there's a silence, most people will chime. It's uncomfortable on both ends. So most people want to close that silence and they'll chime in. Sometimes maybe you have to go a little bit longer, but usually that's about the right timing. Some people really, really find this hard.

You can sit on your hands, you know, like create some sort of physical restriction too, of like, no, I'm really not going to chime in right now. And I think it's also worth. Thinking of it from a risk perspective, can sometimes change our behaviors and, and the risk of chiming in and not giving someone the chance to step into this silence is that you might lose what they're going to say.

You might never get that moment back. Someone might've really been gearing up to share something important. And then you quickly change the subject, or you start talking about yourself because you got nervous or whatever it may be. And the moment's gone. And sometimes you'll never get that back. And so I think that actually can be quite motivating as a reminder of, okay.

My instinct here is to, to jump in what might I lose by doing that?  

Monica: [00:41:54] Yeah. It's I think the, the thing I think about when I think about rushing to fill this space is exactly what you talked about, right. Creating that opening where you might've asked a question and they haven't quite really revealed the whole of it yet, especially when you're having a really hard conversation, like a really emotional conversation that it actually kind of creating space actually becomes an ally to helping them kind of have the space to.

Really say the thing, the honest thing, the vulnerable thing and the hard thing. 

Ximena: [00:42:39] And I think sometimes we. We feel like maybe we can speed up that process. So we'll ask something and you know, maybe the person's working on it. And so we'll say like, what was it that you feel like this? Or, you know, I'm thinking that you might feel like this.

So we sort of start grasping at like lolly. They they're just not saying it, but this is what's happening. And. We ended up just clouding the conversation with, you know, essentially our projections were projecting onto the other person, what their experiences were putting our own assumptions, um, or giving voice to our interpretation and.

That can sometimes be helpful for someone to respond to, but sometimes it can be hurtful for the other person to say, wait, you think that I feel what, or you're reading this from? No, like now if you're misunderstanding me on that level, do I really want to share more? Right. And so I think again, just.

Opening that space up and letting it breathe a little bit. Yes. Can be the best thing to do. 

Monica: [00:43:47] Totally. You talk too about kind of asking connecting questions. So, and you kind of touched in on that, but I wondered if you could just say more about that because you talk about the fact that they can bring us close.

They can bring us closer. Like when I think of true intimacy, I do think about these connecting questions sometimes, and also that space that we just spoke about. 

Ximena: [00:44:13] Yeah. So connecting questions can definitely have that effect of building a relationship. The trick is that often we're asking questions that are.

Disconnecting in the sense that they're leading or they're biased in some way, they have those assumptions that I was talking about baked in. And so the key is really to change how we ask questions. So sometimes we'll ask something like, are you mad at me? It seems pretty simple, but we're suggesting that the person.

Should be mad is giving off mad vibes. You know, that where we're making an assumption there. So a better way to approach it would be to use an open-ended question and say, how do you feel? Like, how are you feeling right now? What are you feeling right now? So shifting from asking questions that start with do is, or are toward questions that start with what and how is a really tactical way to start to shift.

Into that connecting question phase where you're really, you're creating a pretty big opening for someone to, to share as much, or as little as they want to say. You can also ask encouraging questions. So they're just little prompts basically to help someone say more. And so it can literally be, say more about that.

What else? Oh, tell me about that. They don't necessarily even sound like questions. They're, they're small, they're gentle nudges, and sometimes that's really what you need. You know, maybe the conversation has opened up and you sense there's more. And you just want to give it a little bit of a nudge, those questions.

Those statements can really help. And my favorite, which I think sounds confusing at the beginning, but my favorite is to just say, because, so if the person says, you know, I'm, I'm so stressed about X, Y, Z, or like, you know, my scenario is complicated in ABC ways. I might just say, oh, because not.dot the.dot.is implied.

And usually the person will say, well, because it's making me realize like how I feel about X it's a, it's a very, it's almost. It's useful. When you can tell that there's more to be said, and there's a why that hasn't been expressed that because helps you reveal that why 

Monica: [00:46:42] I love that that's such a powerful tip.

I never thought about because as that kind of extra, like get the. Um, like thinking of like the meat and the Walnut, right? Like, you know, like getting the extra meat from what's going on there. And as a seeker, it's, this is a subject that's really important to me. And I would, I would venture to say for all of my listeners too, who I also believe are seekers.

And so when you. When you think about like your hope for people in the world, when it relates to this word, what do you see possible?

Ximena: [00:47:22] My hope is that we're able to build stronger relationships through listening. We're able to understand people better and feel more connected to them and combat some of that loneliness that we talked about earlier.

Because I think some of that comes from sharing our needs, but some of it also comes from really deeply understanding someone else and their needs and that, that connection that comes through that being seen on both ends. And so ultimately I think it's about building better relationships, whether that's at home or at work and feeling more connected to other people.

Monica: [00:47:59] So beautiful. And so if our listeners today were to. Try one magical thing that you're just like, just try this one thing and like watch the magic happen. What would you tell? 

Ximena: [00:48:15] I think I would say, try and look for that need, like try and try and even just approach conversations with the idea that there is a need and that it might not be.

Expressed explicitly. I just think that shift is going to open things up a lot.

Monica: [00:48:32] Okay. So meaning if somebody approaches them. And they're just opening a conversation for us, the listener to be looking for the need underneath, whatever it is that the person. So like, obviously right now, I'm thinking about the people in my family who are the people that I'm with most often.

So like when they're reaching out to me, like mom, you know, like I just may actually, I'm just thinking of my daughter right now. Like she just made like $300 in one day, like waitressing and she's mom, you know, And it's so funny because now I'm seeing, cause later she continued to talk to me. So first it was mom, I made $300, blah, blah, blah.

Right. So it's like celebrating that and then she's like, do you think I need to stop talking so much about money that way? So I bet you, you know, again, like if I had listened from that place of like that, that would have been the beneath it again, I'm making an assumption, but it just find it interesting that again, we were still in the conversation, but she was kind of starting to get more vulnerable.

Hey, is that, is this okay? That I'm like celebrating how much money I made, like, is this taboo? And I don't know it. And of course my response was like, hell yes, like keep celebrating. Right. Because of course that is typically a taboo conversation for so many women. And so I think we're changing that dynamic.

And so it brought what brought up in our conversation was like, how money is energy, how money has often been, you know, a subject that has kept women from knowing a lot of freedom because their parents maybe. In our upbringing. I was a girl and my brother was obviously a boy and my father was teaching him how to be fiscally responsible, but like, oh, I was going to just find a husband.

Right. So there's these biases that also keep women still as of today, not feeling sometimes we're great with money or that we have the kind of freedom and because it's still foreign to us. I think again, it becomes, it just really starts. To show up listening as like, there's always, we're having this conversation like, and I'm holding my hands together.

Like it's little, but what we're really capable of is the conversation gets, can get so big. And I always say we're always in a conversation. Whether we know it or not. And sometimes we have to really check in about what is the conversation that we're currently having. And this is the work that you talk about with, in terms of the importance of turning inward, focusing on ourselves, it's like listening to ourselves is also an element of this.

So I wondered if you have anything more to say on that. 

Ximena: [00:51:31] Yeah, no, I think that that is the. Listening to ourselves, turning inwards, understanding ourselves as is really what makes us effective listeners like it is about the other person, but really it's about us. It's about how we're showing up in conversation, how present we're able to be, what kind of energy we're bringing in, whether where taking something personally.

Rightly or wrongly in a conversation. Right. And so I think doing that introspection of what is my mode, like what, when do I do my best listening? Like what time of day do I do my best listening? In what relationships do I find it harder to listen? Um, you know, are those family relationships, are those competitive relationships?

Are those hierarchical relationships in some way, but doing that self-reflection of. Who am I as a listener and when do I do my best listening? And when do I do my worst listening is really important because that is where, you know, it's not to say that you will come away with a report card and be like, okay, now I have to change X, Y, Z.

It's more now you're aware of it. And now you can see that for yourself. And you can feel that in conversations and adapt when it's called for, and that is. That combined with that need that we were talking about of really uncovering what's the layer beneath the layer, beneath the layer. That's where the super power of listening comes into play because you see something, you hear something that other people don't.

Because you're in tune with what's happening for you in that moment. And you're, you're picking up on these other cues of what's happening for the other person. So that's where the magic happens. 

Monica: [00:53:17] Well, and that's where the title of your book comes in. Right? Listen, like you mean. And for our listeners from jump, but the book is just so great.

She just, you really also have a gift for writing and thank you. And that relational way, right. That just kind of really, it doesn't it. When I was reading it, it just it's so relatable. So I really encourage all of our listeners to grab it. Listen, like you mean it reclaiming the lost art of true connection.

And I just want to congratulate you because it's such a powerful book and I think it's such a, such a powerful subject. And I think it's. Such a, like I said before, such a needed skill set that, you know, there's a way that you really present it, that I think is just such a gift to the world. So I just honor you and I honor your work and I thank you so much for revealing more about it today and for sharing it with us.

Ximena: [00:54:20] Thank you. Thank you so much. This was so fun and. I hope that the book is a gift. So it's just lovely to hear that even reflected back to me, you know? Um, cause that's definitely, that's why I spent two years of my life working on it. So I'm, I'm really greatful. 

Monica: [00:54:37] Yeah. Oh it really, truly is. So the other final piece that I just wanted to say is, of course, I'm listening to you say like two years.

And this morning I had that experience, you know, where I went the beach and I'm in the process of writing a book. And I was talking about the fact that, you know, I went to the beach this morning and this is I've been developing this habit of inner listening more from this intention of wanting to write the book and kind of connect with that inner knowing inside of me, that is.

Really trying to align itself to kind of that writing process. So of course, I'm dying to talk to you more about that and we will soon, but, and for our listeners pick up the book, they can get it on Amazon. It's in, I saw Kindle format, physical format and audible. Correct. 

Ximena: [00:55:31] Yes. And I actually narrated the audio version, so, 

Monica: [00:55:35] So good.

Well, I always get the audio as well, so I have it. I downloaded the audio as well. It just, now I just need to listen to it, listen to it. Right. So to our listeners, we'll put all of these. In the show notes and more to be revealed.

Hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed. .