150 Libby Bunten and Megan Jo Wilson === Monica: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast. So today I'm really excited because I have two guests. It's gonna be a three-way y'all. And, um, we're really talking today about the potential of more feminine in business or what I'm gonna call living the feminine business model. And while I'm not interested in perpetuating a dual world view, I do wanna point out that it's duality that makes up the whole. And so we actually need dual aspects in dual energy for balance to occur. And yet our world has been largely dominated by what we consider the masculine aspects of life. So these masculine traits have been assigned, in many cases, a higher value. They've been rewarded with money and respect. Um, and those values have also been a central focus in how business and economy are operated. And as a result, many of us suffer. Um, A feminine business model and exploring a feminine business model doesn't exclude the masculine, but it instead negates the business-as-usual attitude because the world is changing, and we're really starting to place. Value on aspects of the feminine that have been missing from business and from life. And so today I am so excited to introduce and reintroduce two former goddesses and guests, Libby Bunton and Megan Joe Wilson. And just to give you a little bit of background, Libby was recently on the show. Um, but her background as an embodiment coach and social marketing professional has just really catapulted her into a whole new way of doing business in the feminine business model that we speak of here. And she has a huge passion for strengthening the lives of women in her local community and beyond. She lives in Maine and has, you know, just an incredible, uh, Warmth to her. I know you're going, If you haven't listened to past episodes with her, I encourage you to do so. Um, Libby had a brief stint in a toxic patriarchal corporate work environment, and that really made her want to pursue, um, just a, a. A more entrepreneurial way of doing business. And she found herself, of course, in feminist leadership development with like-minded, independent and irreverent women, which I am proud to consider myself one of. So she recently founded and launched her newest group coaching program called Self Approval School, where women come together in sisterhood in new ways to remember who they really are and break the bullshit rules and learn to give themselves the stamp of approval. So when she isn't cheering women on, you can find her traveling with her. Bagel Slinging Hun Paul, who is also one of my favorite people. Um, and today is her eighth wedding anniversary. So welcome, Libby. And I also want to welcome Megan Jo Wilson, who I've decided is probably the most mentioned name on the revelation. Podcast. She is , the founder of Rockstar Camp for Women, and she's the bustling author of three books. Who the fuck am I to be a coach? Who the fuck am I to be a rockstar and no more playing small? And by the way, I wrote the forward to that one. Over the years, she has offered incredible experimental learning programs for women who are ready to step out from behind the curtain and start rocking their business and their lives. And she's the queen of using feminine leadership principles to teach hundreds of women to embrace their visibility, to create high-impact and high-income coaching and healing businesses. So welcome Megan Jo, and welcome Libby. MJ: Thank you. Libby: Thank you, MJ: so good for all of us to be together. Monica: It is so good. Yay. So, Yay. Um, I'm so thrilled to talk about this because of course, the three of us have had many escapades and many adventures. Um, Libby and I of course, have done Megan Jo Wilson's programs, and Megan Jo Libby and I have really come together in the last couple years in a number of different ways as friends, as sisters, to talk about. You know, just, just how to, how to change the kind of business-as-usual mentality. And I know this is a conversation that's near and dear to both of your hearts. And I would love to just invite us to kind of just jump in and, and maybe just start with, what is your biggest revelation about the doing business, the feminine way of late? Libby, I'll start with you. Libby: Well, it's interesting you should ask because we just kind of did it the way we started this podcast. Um, one of the, First of all, thank you for having me. The, the three of us together is like my favorite thing ever, , and it's just so easy to be with you. Um, which I think is part of the feminine business model is like, it's just so easy to be together even when it's hard. Like we're willing to have those conversations. We're willing to be uncomfortable, we're willing to take ownership of the shadow in the room, as we like to say, or whatever's going on. Monica: Right. Libby: But the way we started the podcast, I think is like a beautiful example before we hit record, is taking our time, practicing the things we know that help us stay in our bodies and, um, celebrating ourselves and each other. So like that's a huge part of it for me, for sure. And also this idea that women can do business together. And in fact, it is brilliant when we do, when we're willing and committed to having all the things belong in the space. Because even recently, someone, you know, a very good friend of mine, I, I'd had. . I had something coming come up in the past around something, uh, a business arrangement with another woman, and another friend of mine was like, Well, you know, that's just, that's what happens when you do business with friends. And I was like, That's actually not true. That is actually not true, and you two are my prime examples of that. So I'm not sure that exactly answers the question, but that's, that's where I am right now in this space with it, is breaking the, breaking the lie and breaking the, the rules, um, and really taking our time and being together well. Monica: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. No, I'm really hearing that your most recent revelation is literally like, That all of it gets to belong. That it actually is by all of it belonging that we continue to succeed together. You know, that it's, it, that it's not as if that, that conversation doesn't belong in the business place, for instance. It, it's, it's like, it, the feminine way is being more inclusive and getting real, and getting authentic and allowing, life to show up as part of business because it, it, it is part of business. Libby: Mm-hmm. . And also, yeah, I love that. And having like your, the emotional intimate relationship actually does get to be part of it. Because when we try to cut those aspects of ourselves off, it's just, it's, it's toxic. And I kind of think of it as like we're all responsible for carrying the torch for parts of our relationships and arrangements at different times. And in the past I felt like I always had to carry the torch. It was just me carrying the torch in order for it to work. And that was that Still. Like, there was still a little piece of that in me until recently when I had this whole thing happen where I was like, Oh yeah, I can't, My arm is tired. I can't always carry the torch So Monica: Yes. Well, Bragged Libby . so good. So good. And Megan, Jo, I'd love to hear anything that came up for you as she was talking, or just, you know, to go back to the question, what's your most recent revelation? MJ: Yes. Amen to everything you're both saying. I think that what is getting clearer for me is how persistent and how incessant and how almost alluring and tempting, know, the patriarchy can be. And I would just underline what you. Said about us being colleagues and sisters and friends for many years and there's a sort of way that, you know, a lot of women, praise goddess are waking up to the feminine, what the feminine means. A lot of men are too. Right? The world is, and it sounds great on paper. And the truth is that once you start becoming aware of your own, uh, first of all, once you become aware of like world history and women's history, once you become aware of how the patriarchy and all of its many forms can, has infected us and does direct us, it sounds like you'd just be like skipping through the laying with your sisters. Woohoo. We're free. But that awareness is actually quite devastating, and unraveling from it is for me. uh, like an everyday pursuit, sometimes every hour pursuit. And so I'm really aware of that and it's heartbreaking, but it's sort of like the matrix pill, you know? It's like once you see it, you can't unsee it. And I think that it's an ongoing, as you say, you know, Monica, breaking the trance of unworthiness. And you, Libby, you know, how do I approve of myself? How do I really learn to approve of myself? And I think we can't do that Libby: Hmm. MJ: So I feel deep gratitude for the ways that we can come to each other and say, Oh, I'm in the trance, baby. There's a shadow in the room. I'm in the trance. I'm not approving of myself. And in the context of. You know, especially as entrepreneurs and we, we are entrepreneurs, you know, we don't work in big corporations, though many women do. Uh, it's so easy to just isolate and, um, kind of spiral into that particular hell. So, Libby: Hmm. MJ: um, Monica: Yes. And it is MJ: more and more determined to claim my freedom and some days more and more, Wow, this really feels impossible. Monica: Yeah. Yeah. I love that Megan Jo. I love that so much. And, you know, for our listeners, I'd, I'd also love to kind of just surface, you know, what some of those feminine values or kind of the, that feminine business model that we're talking about. you know, because it doesn't include these masculine, I would say, values such as like structure and, uh, goal setting, right? It, it's also about including things like rest. Understanding that there's actually boundaries are a, are a helpful, when I think about, you know, the feminine business model, it's like boundaries between. For instance, being on call all the time, right? With business, I think about, uh, bringing pleasure into the workplace. I think about bringing allyship into the workplace. I think about bringing, collab, more collaboration, more creativity. So I wondered if, you know, there are specific values that you, really focus on bringing to your business and to your work life balance that you wanna surface here as well. MJ: Should I go Libby? Libby: Yeah, you go ahead. MJ: Yeah. I love how you like introduced this to man that like it's not the exclusion of the masculine. Cuz actually in business and in life, it was a really beautiful, radiant qualities that we all need. You know, my linearity, my strategy, my action-taking, my risk taking, my love of spreadsheets, my love of calculators and math and calendars serves me very well. And so what I always say is, we're like not just making some space for the feminine, but we're gonna include it and actually center it. What would happen if we made her the priority and then the masculine was like there to support it. You know, there's all kinds of different metaphors, but one that, I love is masculine is the rock, feminine is the wave. And so, I love to have that rock so that the wave of my, you know, my favorite quality of the feminine is out outrageousness, total absurdity. and so, you know, we, the three of us, have done this too. Like, we get together, we're planning a retreat or an event or a marketing strategy, and we say, like, what would be the most fun, outrageous thing we could do? What if blad di blah di blah, what's my desire here? Another core principle of the feminine, right? So it's like, pleasure, play, vision. Not at all rational or logical. And there's so much useful fucking gold in doing that. Like any team or any individual, if they fold in just a dash of that to their next strategic meeting, they're gonna get a better. Result, they're gonna have more fun. They're actually gonna be more innovative. People love the word innovation, even though they don't really want innovation because innovation means chaos. Monica: Mm-hmm. . Great point. MJ: But we're in a time of great chaos. And so it's an amazing opportunity for like fantasy and innovation and creating things that I've never been created before. Um, so at this point, as you both know, that's just like standard daily practice. And it is also so necessary to have spreadsheets and calendars and calculators and strategy and action like they really do. You know, we've talked a lot about like, you really do need both wings to fly in a direction that's not a spiral Monica: that's right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love, I love that out, Outrageousness and absurdity. You know, that that's one of your, It's like, because it's, it's playful. It's out there. It's, you, you know, it's like the thing that shakes it all up. You know, it like, it, it gets everybody, kind of just out of their well out of the trance. Right. MJ: Out of the. Monica: It's out, It's, it's that moment that you just are like alive, awake, right? Because it's, there's something about out outrageousness and absurdity that just, you know, brings a breath of fresh air and of it has a vitality to it that I love so much. And, and it made me think of, you know, that's that part, and I think you said it, that enlivening, there's a, there's, if, if we're like all business in that very masculine way that we've been trained to be, it deadens you over time. And so, you know, it's, even as I look at. Back to work after four months away. I am so back in the trance about doing it right and, you know, panicking as I look at my already overpacked calendar because I've had so much spaciousness, you know, I've, I've had so much creativity and it's almost like I'm, I'm, I'm. Experiencing some grief, you know, almost of like needing to go back to work, which is such a shame because I, I love work, but it's, it's also remembering right. Every time I forget, it's remembering like, I get to do this the way I know I have the tools to do this differently now. But when you get back in that trance as we all do, it becomes that, like dreading Monday, you know, or dreading the going back to work or dreading going back to school. And what we're really dreading is that deadened way, that over masculinized way of doing it's not sustainable and it, and it really hurts everyone. MJ: I was just gonna, you know, say, Monica, like yeah, you're coming back to a really packed schedule of like fascinating conversations with people about feminism and the patriarchy and making, you know, changing the world. Like, I don't, I don't see your calendar, but it's probably full of those things, which is. just kind of a funny irony. And I just, I just had, I'm about to get deep. Okay. Cause I just had a revelation. The word outrageous actually means counter to the patriarchy. Out outrageousness can only be, you know, relative to something that's normal. And because outrageous isn't really outrageous, Like you wouldn't watch a kid dancing and playing and go that kid's being really outrageous, right? Monica: Such a great point. MJ: it's almost like if we, if we kinda reframe, it's like, actually no, I'm just being natural. I'm just returning to my alive self. The world says it's outrageous and people understand when I frame it as outrageous. But actually I'm just, I don't know, connected to what's natural for me as a woman Monica: Yes. Libby: Okay. I have to, No, Megan, Jo. I was, That was one of the things that was coming to me. I love that you're saying this. I had like full chills when you were saying it MJ: The same. Libby: and, and some of that I was, I learned to remember by the work that you teach. You know, one of the values that I was gonna share is remember, MJ: Mm-hmm. Libby: Remembering. and I know you love that word so much, Monica, but remembering how I was before I was trained out of all my sparkly weird woo woo out outrageousness. Like that's really a huge part of it. And I know, I think it's you, Megan Jo who says like, oftentimes the thing you were criticized for, um, in your out outrageousness, like the parts of you that are so emotional or so whatever is, is your superpower is the thing that when you remember it, that's what radically changes your life. And that's what it's been for me since I started doing that. So I love, I had to interject because that is exactly what I was about to share. MJ: And we've seen Monica do that. It's so good. We've seen Monica do that. We've seen so many of our sister, so many women are like, How do I put myself back together? Like, you know, most of what we're doing is unlearning, deconditioning is like the big word right now, which I love. Cause yes, that's what we're doing. How do I notice my conditioning and ah, how do I not live that way? It's really exciting. And as I said before, it's really tough sometimes and like, it's just so easy. The image I always get is like a, like a Fast moving river, right? Or a tide in the ocean and we're like, No, I'm not gonna, But it's so easy to get swept into that river and then we kinda like crawl our way to of the and out and I nap in the grass naked. So Libby: like we do, like MJ: it's almost easier, right, to just say, Fuck it, I'm just gonna go with the river. Cause crawling to the side just feels exhaust. Monica: Mm-hmm. Libby: mm-hmm. Monica: Yes. Yes. Well, and, and it's you know, as I'm thinking of, you know, the various ways that we've learned to use a number of different tools to kind of disrupt this already, always way of being, you know, I wonder too if, if it would help our listeners a little bit to maybe name some of what we do and how we do it and what we bring, because it's all, it's all fine and well to talk about this as a concept, but I think if we were to actually also kind of ground it into some daily practices or ways that we actually do things to shake up that kind of deadening normal, that, that would be helpful. So I would love to hear maybe from you, Libby, like what are some ways that you conduct your day, your business? That bring in some of these tools and values of the feminine, that not only do you use them for yourself, but you also invite other women and men to participate with you and, and how has it made a difference? Libby: I love this question because there are so many things, and speaking outrageous, that's what's about , but that's what's about to come into this space here. MJ: Which we've already said is normal actually, Libby: Which you've already said is normal, and I'm, I'm so good with that, as you both know, and this is just how we roll. One of the things I was thinking about when you were talking about in the feminine values is, movement, so moving, being in my body. And I have, and this is again for the listeners, it might sound not related to business, but when I was really struggling in my business, I was so outside of my body, my body hurt, but my mind was just trying to override it. Like you've, everybody saw me as the person who had it all figured out and turned to me for leadership and turned to me for support and all these things. And I was literally dying in my body, which is right before I met the two of you. So moving my body when I was so traumatized. about my body. So for example, one of my favorite embodiment practices is what I call jiggle therapy. and Monica: Yes. Libby: Yes. So it's exactly what it sounds like. And I brag, I just saw Lizzo doing jiggle therapy. She wasn't Monica: Oh, yes. Libby: this is just another sign that I need to be friends with her, like , she needs to be friends with me, obviously. But yeah, so I have particular levels of shame and I know Megan Jo, you and I have talked about this, about my thighs. And I think a lot of women do and or at least from the women I've spoken to. And so laying on my back, putting my legs in the air and literally jing my thighs and watching them jiggle and celebrating the jiggle, it's kind. I used to be a clinical therapist and it's kind of like, , it's kind of like exposure therapy because I'm so conditioned to, to loathe, loathe anything that jiggles, on my body unless, you know, maybe it's my, my ass or my tits but even MJ: Mm-hmm. Libby: and just looking at them and letting the, the jiggle ripple through my body. Sometimes I document it on social media and will tag other women and ask them to jiggle their thighs. And it's so satisfying. It's so, it's like, Oh yeah, that's right. I'm still here. I'm still on this body. I can still. I can go through this day because when I start to slip back into the trance, I just leave. I'm all in my, it's all my intellectual part of myself is so skilled at, at aggressing and getting and going for it and all that. And when I remember to move my body and get back in my body, I'm more in that feminine receiving. I'm more in that flirtation, and seduction. So that's one very concrete example of something that I, it, it really has changed my life. Monica: and mine to watch you Libby: Yeah. Thank you. It's true. MJ: It's so good. Monica: It's so good and, yeah. Well, and I just wanted to add to that too, Libby, it's so self loving. It's so self, and this is, this is the part right where I, I'll, I'm just gonna talk about myself this morning and all the anxiety that was building up in me, you know, and it's all head junk. It's all head trash, but it's, it's like to, to get in my body, it's just like jumping up and down. Right? Or, or, a way to kind of like move, like just to, you know, we tried to turn on music before we started so that we could all just have a quick dance party before we even did this. But that's where I think. Women and bringing in the feminine right in, in with men too, right? Like we're men to get up and move, to move our bodies to you know, laugh, to change the energy, to give ourselves permission in that moment, to be a human being, you know, and whatever that is for you. It's like that, that's like kind of that radical, outrageous act of self permission where you are, It, it's, it's like that moment you break the trance and just get back into your body and that's your way of doing it and you're inviting other women to do it. And actually I've seen on social media that that's, that seems to be the thing so many women respond to. It's like, it just kind of lights them up. It's like they would've, it would've never occurred to them to do. Libby: No, it's so true. And one thing that I kind of just realized or put together as you were saying it, and is just that it clarified as you were saying this, is that my mind is the conditioned part. My body is where the creation happens and yeah, like I have chills just thinking about that. Like my body is the truth, my body is the creation. My body is the, is actually the source. My mind is just this trickster, you know, I have a powerful mind. I'm very, I, you know, I appreciate my mind. I appreciate Monica: Well bragged. Well bragged. Mm-hmm. Libby: brag and, um, it is, The conditioned, It's where the conditioning has happened and it, it's what takes me away from my, my creation. Monica: Yes. I love that. I marked that down to my mind is the, is where the conditioning is, and my body is where the creation happens. Libby: Mm-hmm. Monica: Beautiful MJ: good. Monica: MJ. MJ: JIggle therapy. Yes. Yeah, I just wanted to highlight that not only, you know, there's, there's hard science about the benefits of shaking your thighs and jumping up and down and getting your endorphins go, you know, moving your body even for a little while is such a powerful remedy to so many things. Um, and I also love that you're doing like exposure therapy, you know, and I used to ask women, sometimes I still do. Like, what would be different if you loved your thighs or your arms or your be whatever your thing is. And what shocked me the most is that, you know, they didn't say like, I'd be a model or I'd wear a bikini on the beach. Part of this is the context of who I work with, you know, coaches and entrepreneurs, but they're like, I'd submit to speak on that stage. Monica: Mm MJ: offer my workshop this week. I had a woman once who was finally, after weeks and weeks and weeks of working together, said, I can't do it because of my teeth. Monica: mm. MJ: I can't host this event cause of my teeth. So for me it's like this weird paradox of like, yeah, I'm, I'm a spirit, you know, moving around in a meat suit called my body. I mean, that's my belief. Libby: It's MJ: And so the body, it's, in that sense it's kind of irrelevant, but it's not, I. Because it is full of hormones and tissues and cells and it is the object of so much, you know, attention in our culture. We just put so much attention on the body. So one of the ways I love to play, I mean, I have so many ways of playing with it. I do think that a lot of this is about embodiment and mind, right? Both. Monica: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. both MJ: know, I also love to play with, adornment and clothing and using my pleasure, a lot of the tools in like language. Just to shout out to Regina Thomas Hour, Mama, Gina, because a lot of what you're hearing us say comes from her work at the School of Womanly Arts. When we say, well bragged and thank you, it's true. Those are all Mama Gina tools. So, love you, mama. another term is pleasure research. So I'll do pleasure research like in my closet, you know, in the morning, and I spend about an hour, at least an hour most days, two hours in the morning preparing for the day. and that's a new thing for me probably in the past two years that has become a non-negotiable. morning time is so essential for me to pray, to read, to meditate, to move my body, and then to shift to how will I adorn myself. Because you know, when you get into women's history, one of the most ancient traditions of women of all time is adornment and beauty and pleasure. And how can I adorn this body, love this body even. I'm bloated and tired and cranky. And some days it's like a sweatsuit and some days it's a gown and some days it's a hat and some days. But that's really helpful for me as an act of, you know, like jiggle therapy. Like how can I be in my body today in a way that gives me pleasure? Libby: Hmm? MJ: And for me it's such a creative process every day. Like, what am I gonna wear? Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: am I gonna wear today? So that's one Monica: the way, by the way, you're killing it today Libby: Yeah. So I was gonna say that. Monica: Killing it. MJ: Well, thank you. And Monica: It's true. MJ: I'm killing it because I feel good, Libby: Yeah. MJ: You know? Cause like when a woman feels good, she just radiates. everything gets better. When a woman feels good, everyone around her feels. Very counter to what we're taught, but it's, uh, it's true. Monica: Yeah, it is. Libby: It's so true. Monica, I would love to hear one of yours Monica: yeah. Well, you, well, you both know that I'm a huge fan of opening Sacred Space before I ever, you know, record on a podcast. You know, for me I, I'm really in so much agreement with what both of you have said, taking time in the morning, mj, you know, like I've realized that I can start my day at 10:00 AM you know, and go till 4:00 PM it doesn't have to be nine to five or eight to whatever. Right. It's, it's like that actually by taking that time, that extra time or whatever that time is. Some, some days it's, I start at noon, but it's whatever that time is, it's. Then because I've taken the time to fill my cup, because I've taken the time to ground, to center, to love myself, to write, to touch into my creativity, to move my body, it allows me to be so much more present and productive in when I'm working and, and while I'm working. And with the people that I'm in relationship with, especially when it comes to co-creating, opening sacred space, having those moments of intimacy, such powerful foundational, places from which to build an incredibly rich conversation. And I can't tell you. How many men as well that I've interviewed that, you know, I've, I've had a moment. I, I feel much more comfortable kind of doing that with women because it seems like it's much more kind of just a I don't know. There's, there's a way that when I interview men, I kind of get like, but, but there's some deeper voice inside of me that has this wisdom that's like, model what this looks like for them too, you know? And do it the same way you've always done it. Don't change your way of orienting yourself because there's. A male, you know, that you're about to interview or something. Right? And so I guess what I'm saying is that I'm very loyal to some of these practices and that I trust that my way is my way and it gets to be my way and everybody else needs to orient around my way of doing it, when it comes to how I do business. Libby: hmm. Monica: And so thank you for asking Libby, cuz I, I think sometimes sharing that, I think for our listeners, um, they know for example, that I often will choose an Oracle card before I start just to kind of invite the universe to also participate in the conversation. But I don't think I've ever talked about high open, sacred space before each of, um, the conversations and that that's. Really important to me and setting intentions and hearing from whoever I'm interviewing, what's, what are you up to? What's your intention and how do you wanna bring, you know, your ancestors or your guides into the space as we have this conversation. So, you know, I think again, it's bringing that, those feminine, those beautiful feminine qualities that just are inclusive and allowing and magical, you know, in, into more spaces. And I think that they just immediately grant permission because it is a little outrageous. Again, it's, it's a lot outrageous when you think about how people do business. So, yeah. Thank you for asking. Libby: Yeah. So I hear just like a much softer approach, like softer in how you create the space instead of having these hard, hard edges. Monica: Yes. Yes. In fact, I, I often will say to my guests, you know, 90 minutes and, and 30 of those minutes will be setting space actually, and, you know, and having a foundational just relationship before starting the interview. You know, it's, MJ: of being on a podcast, everybody, Monica: Yes. MJ: the relationships you build before they press record. Libby: Yes. Monica: so true. Yeah. And I think, you know, to your point Megan Jo, in saying that, it's like that's that stuff too that I think is so beautiful. And part of the reason I wanted to talk about this is like to reveal it because what do we mean, you know, when we talk about the, a feminine business model, right? Like that feels so esoteric and out there until we kind of ground it into like some daily habits and ways of being that truly influence the way we do business and are integrated with the way we do business and life. Libby: Hmm mm-hmm. MJ: Yeah. And you know, we've all worked on projects together. Libby and I have worked on rockstar camp together. It's so, just to reiterate, uh, at every business meeting we dance, we laugh, we share, we pray. and then we get out the calculator. You know, uh, business to me is, is uh, is a project that creates or is aiming to create a profit. So we are who we could do a whole nother two hours on capitalism and, and the web that we are, we are in. And how do we operate within that system with as much integrity as possible? That can be really tricky. But it's you know, just to be clear, we're all women that these aren't just side projects that we do to fulfill ourselves. They're certainly very fulfilling, but we also are very committed to generating the revenue that is required to keep our mission going. And in the world in which we live, at least for the three of us generating that revenue is on us. and whether or not it comes from our work or not, every mission needs you know, financial fluid and revenue to sustain itself, at least in the economy we've all scribed to for now. You know, changing too, but Libby: I love that you brought that up, Megan Jo, about the money piece, because I think the money conversation sometimes when people hear feminine, they, that's not really part of the conversation. I've, I've experienced that personally. I can't speak for everybody, but in settings it's like, Oh no, I, I don't this isn't about the money. And it's like there's just so much there that I have personally learned a lot from the both of you and a lot of other areas where I've done work around this. But I think it's so important that you underline that. Because partially also that in my experience as a female entrepreneur, it can be seen as some cute little side project. And there was a time in my life where I let it be seen that way. So yeah, I love it. And what's wild is when, when I continue these practices and balance my feminine with the divine masculine parts of myself, I do make more money and I do have more rest, and I do Monica: Yes. Libby: impact And modeling, one of the things that I will say for all three of us is that we do model what we're teaching, like we're living that. So I'm glad that you mentioned that piece. Monica: Me too. Yeah, I was even just thinking about, you know, I just sometimes shake my head and laugh right about how. The feminine is not to be underestimated. I mean, there is a grit and a strength and an authenticity, uh, and a rigor that I think the feminine holds that actually compliments the masculine so well. Um, and that, you know, It's where angels fear to tread in many cases. You know, when you're a fully embodied, fully permissioned, fully integrated feminine being, meaning in a female body, you're a force to be reckoned with. And I think that's the same for men who can fully embody and integrate with their inner feminine. There is a, there is this beautiful combination, you know, and I think Megan Jo, of, of folks like Ken Mossman or right. That, that there are these men in our midst that have such presence and are able to navigate their interactions with others in such a profoundly , I'll say like in, in a profoundly integrated and filled with integrity way, right? That, that there's, there's so much to be said. I'll never forget the first few times I saw men who were fully in touch with their feminine side and how much more potent and powerful they actually seemed to me. And it was a different kind of potent and powerful than what I had seen in the quote unquote business world in the three piece suit and the, you know, the hierarchical way right, of kind of, of doing business as usual. And it's like, it profoundly impacted me to see that that was possible and to see how much more it brought to business. When a, when a man shows up in touch with his feminine and vice versa, a woman shows up in touch with her feminine. MJ: Yeah, I was just thinking about the men and women that I know in that I would. I can't think of an example in this moment where someone who's not in touch with their feminine isn't also deeply in touch with their masculine Libby: mm-hmm. MJ: because the patriarchy sucks for everyone. The patriarchy is different than masculinity. I know you talk about that a lot, but it really, it really sucks for everyone and sort of pretend masculinity or toxic vascular, distorted masculine, all the terms we have for that are just so, prevalent. And in my opinion, it's like well, Ken talks a lot about this too. It's adolescent, it's it's grownups who haven't grown up Libby: Hmm. Mm-hmm. MJ: still acting like children. And that's many, many, many of our world leaders are still operating from that place. Right? Many leaders in the world, many of us, Libby: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. MJ: are. Might be adults, but not yet grown up, Libby: Hmm. Well, I love that. And what I was thinking too is this, I mean, it's always worth mentioning, what exactly what you said, like the patriarchy is not like the masculine is the devil MJ: right? Libby: conversation I think we're having is about inclusion and balance. Like there is such an imbalance. the feminine is so, has, has been so, excluded in especially the business space especially in the leadership space and, um, the difference between, you know, modern feminism and old school feminism. Like, we're like, okay, now we're gonna, now we're going to do this our way. We're not going to do it, the business as usual, so we can get in there and have the voice. It's like, no, actually we're, we're not gonna whip our backs all the way to the top of the mountain because then we're gonna have the lashes all over our backs. We're actually going to include all of this on the way. It might take a little bit longer, it might be faster. You don't really know. but to speak to what you were just saying is that balance because it does, the patriarchy does suck for everybody. Monica: Yeah. Well the other thing is like you guys are both pointing to some of these bigger problems when we don't bring in more of a feminine business model. And so, you know, like the systems of patriarchy and unconscious capitalism have really like overemphasized the masculine characteristics that result in, for example, women for being forced to adopt more masculine traits in detriment to her innate feminine wisdom, right? And not and then there's non-binary people, for example, who refuse to fit into that kind of standard heteronormative worldview who are looking for a place to exist that's not defined by that. And then you also have people of color and other marginalized groups in need of allies that. To help bring their stories and their needs to the forefront in mainstream conversation and in business, right? Like there's a way that that's totally changes when you start bringing more inclusivity and more listening and more compassion to the way that we do business. Then there's all of the emotionally stifled men who are longing for the feminine to bring business and life back into harmony. Like I believe that so many men are longing for women to step up and bring more of this because they know that, that they benefit too. And then we have, of course, the planet that's being over exploited and harmed the more that we continue to do business this way. And then probably the worst of all, which is that. You know, not only do we suffer when we keep doing business this way, but our children are suffering and they're being neglected and abused as a result of this. Just this unconscious, I'll say capitalism, and these systems of patriarchy that just continue to kind of like enforce this drum beat of the daily grind at the expense of our humanity. So, sorry, I just kind of went off there, but it just brings all that up in me. Like, it's like, ah, you know, we have to change the way that we do this. It's, it's like we're gonna, it's like we're not gonna survive if we don't. Like, that's the truth of it. MJ: the truth of it. Libby: Mm-hmm. MJ: So we, as we open to this podcast, once it, it's like, how exciting and like, Oh, how devastating. Libby: Yeah. MJ: devastating. Monica: Yeah. It, it, it, it really, it can be really devastating, but I also kind of love that in the face of that, you know, that we're . I mean, think of also kind of the irony of that, that in the face of that we're bringing more joy, more pleasure. That that's a, those are actually the thing, the remedies, those are the antidotes to this, you know, And it feels counterintuitive, but it is not, you know, these are the ways that we get back in touch with you know, operating from a much more holistic approach and just with so much more heart. It's where the head and the. Meet. And so, you know, I wanna kind of go back and make sure that we give enough examples to our listeners. Cause I also think, you know, I think of, for example, ways, Megan Jo, that you've taught us, in addition to movement, you know, you've, you've taught us a lot about intimacy and getting to business by actually clearing, spa, emotional space. I wondered if you wanna talk about that a little bit, because that always shows up in, in everybody, men and women. And we need to sometimes clear that before we can kind of center ourselves and get to business. And I think sometimes we need help doing that and that that gets to be a part of how we do business. MJ: Yeah. I think of it as. Clearing, but also like including because we're, it's just so funny to me. You know, I've been in this coaching industry for almost 20 years. I've been reading self-help books since I was 12, so, I don't know, 35 years or something. And it's just so funny to me that the idea of like, emotions feeling like these are soft skills and these are like woo woo things. having the capacity to like actually be with what you're feeling is a remarkable, uh, skill. I mean, we we're born with it, right? Wanna learn how to do it. Watch a child, they will show you exact, we used to be able to do it we learn that it's wrong or inappropriate or impolite or, you know, you just don't do that. And yet, like being alive, being a human with a self conscious, conscious in a body is like very intense. There's a lot of suffering. There's a lot of joy, There's just a lot of feelings. And we get, we're very, very well conditioned how we're supposed to feel, how we're supposed to express what we feel and when it's appropriate. And certainly in business you know, it's not personal, it's business, Right? How many times have you heard that in a movie or a show? It's not personal. This is just business. Um, and it's sort of like, uh, anyway, I, I dream of a world where we get to just like express and be with what we're feeling and have it not be a big deal like kids do, even at a boardroom discussion. I think that, I think that would be amazing. and. There are also places and ways, as you both know, that you wanna have a particular container for what you're feeling. And and as as you know, that's one of the things that I, that I teach to the women I work with, especially entrepreneurs. Cause if you wanna feel a lot of feelings, if you wanna sign up for a rollercoaster ride, go start your own business. Monica: Search your own business. Libby: Yeah. MJ: nothing. No, I'm telling you, not motherhood. There's nothing that, for me, has brought up more of my own stuff. More joy, more thrill, More highs, more lows, more despair, more angst, more. What was that card we pulled up? The first card, The, the face, the, Libby: un something. Monica: Oh, the Libby: was it? despicable face. The despicable face, Yes. MJ: This was one of the cards we pulled, is like the part of us that we don't want the world to see. Because if I'm in business, I have to present that I've got it all put together and no one does. I promise y'all, Monica: No one MJ: I mean no one and we, you know, it's just Shane. It's kinda heartbreaking how we do that. But in any case, I don't think I could go into in this context like how I do that with women. Cause it wouldn't really make sense. But the idea is simple. It's not mine. It's very ancient. Like you're feeling something, let it hap like, be with it, Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: Allow it, be curious about it, observe it, like, wow, I really feel anxious today. and I really feel ecstatic today. And you know. It's intense, but I'd rather, you know, unfortunately you can't like a mixing board on, you know, at a concert you can't just crank up the good feelings and then numb out the bad feelings. You kind of have to either numb them all down, which is what, you know, a lot of us do when we're in a state of overwhelm their depression or it's all too much, like just numb it all down. I'd rather go for like crank 'em all up cause I'll take the despair with the ecstasy, you know? Cause what else is there to do? It's just the human experience. Monica: Well, one thing that I know that all three of us are very intentional about when we co-create or collaborate with other business owners is we get really clear about what values they wanna bring to the project. ? And so that's one way that we often will do that is that, you know, I might be in relationship or collaborating with someone and she wants to bring fun, you know, like she wants to bring, a lot of laughter to what it is that we're creating. Or she wants to bring a lot of, you know, revenue or creativity or, and I think that's one way of kind of surfacing how do we work with different values or emotions? But I guess, you know, what I will say is that, and, and Libby and I, you and I talk about this all the time, is when we're collaborating, when we're working on a project it's like, what do I desire in this moment? And what do I desire in, in the future? And so if there's anything to Libby that you wanna add to this conversation, I'd love to hear it. Libby: Yeah. I love what you said, MJ, you know, I love , all those practices that, I mean, Megan, Jo and I have been doing business together for a few years now, and I'm like, How the hell did I live before this way of doing business? But one of the, what she's referencing, one of the things is like being with it all, you know, like learning how to be with it all. And one of the ways, well that piece, and then also what you just said, Monica, about the, the values and the intention setting. Like, one of the first things I do when I start a new cohort when I'm working with women in a coaching group, is actually have their voices design with me about what they intend. Because in my experience, I'm used to showing up to leadership spaces where I'm told what is, what the intention is. and it's so disempowering, I guess for lack of a sexier word, . It's like, it's very disempowering to not have your voice be part of the mix and the intention setting. And then, what comes from that is so remarkable because then the women are just like, Oh, it matters why I'm here. The, I showed up, I committed time to this work, and this person actually cares why I decided to do it. They didn't just like, want to take my money and , you know, like, tell me how this is gonna be. Now, of course, you know, we all run the group through a lens of, you know, we're not going to participate. We're going to, we're going to call out patriarchy, we're gonna call out misogyny. We all have like, Aspects of ourselves that slip in. it's a forever project . I hate to break it to you, to the listeners if you didn't already know that. but it's just so, it's so incredible what happens when, when it's different. And the other thing I wanted to say about what Megan Jo was saying is like, one of the things I love is a way of getting with that is like seeing these parts of ourselves. Like I love helping, I do this with myself and I do this with other women, is like, how do we be with those parts of ourselves that we've so that are so abandoned, that we've abandoned, that we're abandoned by others, that are what I call disintegrated and help them come back in so we can actually, you know, learn how to approve of being a whole human being instead of, you know, white picket fencing ourselves, is what I like to MJ: Mm-hmm. So good Monica: Yeah. Yeah. So, good. And Libby, what made you decide to become an entrepreneur? Libby: Oh, well. I love, I also love what you said, Megan Jo about like, entrepreneurship. It's like, I always joke and say, if you wanna know what someone's issues are, tell them to start a business . Cause it's like boom, that shit comes right flying to the surface. Monica: More to revealed. All of it. Yeah. Libby: More be revealed. the, truth is I avoided entrepreneurship for a long time because of exactly what we're talking about. Like, I, in the, the, the aspect of toxic patriarchal , conditioning around how business ownership had to be. I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs, but the business, owned them. It was like suffering is paramount sacrifice. All else, like, I have to suffer more in order to have this and you know, like, this is intense, but it's actually literally why my mother took her life is she became very successful as an entrepreneur. Now, no, mind you, there were many other things involved. She was an alcoholic. She had a lot of trauma and I really, it really stands out to me that as soon as she became really successful in her business was the undoing. She deteriorated. It was like a five year process and then she took her own life. So to me, business ownership equaled death. So I was like, no thanks. But I was learning it from people who were doing their best in the trance. Like in their deep conditioning. So there's that piece of it. And I kept getting put in leadership positions and I was like, I don't wanna be your leader. I don't wanna be anybody's leader. Like, I was like, No, no, no. It's gonna have to be that toxic, masculine way. And what I realized when I started my first business was, that I just innately had something in me that was meant for that type of lifestyle. Like really being in charge of my own time. I just didn't think it could be that way. So I really wanted to point out like that I did not want to be an entrepreneur because of the, the conditioning and the. Really messed up messaging I had around it. and I too, Megan Jo had been reading Self-Help books for years. I had been in leadership in every job I ever had, you know, all these things. And what I realized is what it, what it is who I am. Entrepreneurship is a huge part of who I am and how I operate in the world. And like I love the self leadership aspect of it and being accountable to myself even though it's really fucking uncomfortable a lot of the time. Monica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ..Yeah. And what's your favorite, I guess a, a couple of favorite things about being an entrepreneur. What do you love about being an entrepreneur in addition to that Libby: Hmm. What I love about being an entrepreneur is, new ways of collaborating, like making new rules around, like all this stuff that we've been talking about. I love showing up for business meetings in lingerie with Megan Jo or wherever, you know, I just, it, I love the, what it requires of me. Like I cannot avoid my self no matter how hard I try and avoiding myself when I was in corporate or in, you know, traditional employment was something I got very good at, very, very good at. So I just love how it keeps pointing me back to like figuring out my true north. And also really, really the collaboration piece that's possible when you are the one making the rules and calling the shots. Monica: so great and. Yeah. , I love what you said about all of it. I mean, it's so true. The collaborations keep me endlessly, growing and, are so fulfilling, right? Are so, give me access to creativity and laughter and intimacy and all those things, which is so, such a beautiful part of doing business in this way. And thank you Libby and mj, Megan Jo, I wanna hear your answers to those two things as well. What had you become an entrepreneur? MJ: Yeah, I did it on purpose at a certain point, but I was I've had a lot of beautiful actually experiences working in large organizations. I had some horrible ones, but. For me, you know, like I said, I started my coach training 18 years ago. I knew that this was the work I was, you know, meant to be doing. And I did it in all kinds of different settings and hospitals and salons and grocery store chains and with bands and artists. So I wasn't always like a fully self-employed entrepreneur, and it sort of was like I was sort of led to it. when I wrote my first book, I had already done a lot of leadership development training, but there was some way in which I could sense what was coming and it did not look good. It was about the time that Trump threw his hat in the ring to run for president. And I had a very strong feeling he was gonna be elected, even though everyone was saying there's no, he is a joke, he's a PR stunt. And I went, Oh, this is bad. This is bad. And it's really time for me to step it up. And um, you know, I had been doing a lot of really powerful work, but for me it was the path to the most impact Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: path to the most income. I will say in the early years, it did not give me more time freedom. It gave me less Libby: Mm-hmm. MJ: because and I can say honestly, that's true for a lot of the entrepreneurs I work with. Because even if you're not literally doing the job, you're thinking about the job. Even if you're not building the webinar, you're thinking about the web, at least for me. and I would be on vacations, you know, under the gazebo doing sales calls and checking Facebook groups. And I really, uh, struggled with the time. You know, I was like, I kinda misin you took a vacation and you were just on vacation now. Uh, so that was a challenge for me. That piece has gotten much, much better, but in part because of the, the commitment and the passion, I had more to the impact than anything else. So I knew that if I went all in and wrote this book and really got the business side of things solidified, which no one had ever taught me, you know, I was a great coach. I just didn't know how to get clients, which is problematic, . So I, I really committed to figuring that piece out Coaching as many people as I possibly could while I was alive, because to me, at least the model of coaching that you and I, Monica were taught, and I know the model that Libby uses it, it's all about, uh, masculine and feminine communication, being able to be with someone else and listen deeply and co-create and also take action. It's both. Libby: Hmm. MJ: So I dunno if I've even thought about like, why did I become an entrepreneur? followed the divide breadcrumbs. And here I am, Queens Monica: Yes. Thank God. As you're here and Megan, Joe, what, what's your favorite thing about it? I mean, what's your, what's MJ: that I'm working right now Monica: Yeah. MJ: Is Monday at two 30 and this is my work. I'm talking to two incredible women That's work. Like I'm not Libby: Hmm. MJ: In a meeting with people. I don't respect, I'm not in a meeting with people I don't admire. I'm not in a meeting where nothing useful is being discussed. And I've been in Monica: Where you're zoning out, just looking at the clock, like, Please God, make it be five o'clock. Yeah. MJ: And you know, there are, there's a percentage of that drudgery in, in any job, I'm convinced. But I would say 90% of what I do is just highly entertain. It's not boring. I will tell you that , I'm never bored. Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: So that's my favorite part of it. It's, um, feeling like I'm, I'm aligned with what I was put here to do. Libby: Hmm. MJ: And that could take lots of different forms. I don't know if it'll be entrepreneur solopreneur, who knows? Who knows? I'm always open to. Uh, the God of my understanding directing me of where I'm best to be used. So Libby: Hmm. MJ: see. Monica: Beautiful. Yes. More to be revealed as someone says. And and I know MJ, that you have to head out soon to pick up your beautiful child from school. And so I wanna just ask a couple last questions here. But I guess what I, what I wanna ask is, are there any, what, well, I'll put it this way. What are the, what are some of the biggest hurdles or pitfalls that you see women repeatedly do in their lives or in their business that like you wish that they knew that there was another way? MJ: Yeah. Oh, so many. Monica: Oh, so many. MJ: so many. Yeah, I've been working with women coaches, like, so basically for those who don't know, for the last five or six years I've just been working with women coaches who wanna start a right? So who wanna be entrepreneurs, who wanna learn how to enroll clients. I just have to say, I don't know if this is a pitfall, but I'm gonna name it anyway because you just said something really important. I know you have to wrap up to go get your daughter. And what's really cool, a lot of people call this the fourth wave feminism. Libby kind of nodded it to it before where the early waves of feminism were women manning up and clawing their way into a man's world. And there have been many waves and we know there will be more waves to come. But one of the things that I love, and actually I do see this in a lot of the other women, I work with is recognizing that as women, we get to choose that. Being a mom, a wife, a daughter, a contributing member of our family is just as valuable if not more valuable than being productive in our business. Monica: Mm. MJ: And that is, for me, such a radical choice. And I see it happen with other women because the world doesn't value it in the same way, right? I'm not for picking up my daughter after school. I mean, I'm rewarded personally, right? Libby: Hm MJ: Like no one really cares about it. They wanna know how many like fans I have and how much money I'm making, How many books have I written? How many classes am I teaching? Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: So I think the overarching thing. You know, one of the patterns I see over and over, and it goes back to this like how ever present, you know that it's in the air we breathe, that I should be doing more. There is, I just, It's true for men too, but it's so fascinating. Women can do so fucking much like, this is not the issue. , we can do it. We can do all, we can hold the torch, do the laundry, make the dinner, post the eat. Like that's not the problem. Libby: Uhhmm MJ: But we are just absolutely convinced that we're not, that we could be doing more and that we should be doing more. And yet most of the deepest desires I hear from women are, I want to play in my garden. Libby: I want MJ: to read my book on the deck. I want to travel. I want to go on dates and languish in her eyes for five. You know, there's such a hunger for doing and so it's almost like permission. I mean, it's like permission and it's constant against dragging yourself to the edge of the river. Like I get to choose what matters in life. Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: I get to choose what matters in my life and then to approve of it radically. Libby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica: And what I'm also hearing you say is I get to choose what's valuable. I get to choose where the value is placed. Yes. MJ: And that's another version of playing big. You know, a lot of, if you read my book, it like the title, you know, It's like no more playing small. So automatically we go, okay, I gotta like get on stages and do more and roll P like put myself out there and like, yes. And it also means like, as you said, creating your own definition of value, your own definition of success. And that is sometimes for most women, it's really, really tough because the world will not get it. Monica: Mm-hmm. MJ: I mean, I don't know, man, you just came back from a travel adventure, was that like just easy fun to just take some time off? Like you just No problem at all. Right? Isn't it kind of intense? I haven't even talked Monica: No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Well, you know, part of the inspiration for this series is that, you know, I I almost took four months off. I mean, really. Uh, and so was it easy? It is. Maybe I mean, it certainly was easy to to to be in it for the four months. Was it easy to set it up? Actually, there was a lot of ease to it, you know, like, I think, there's bringing in more of the feminine. For me, what it has meant is more space, more placing more value on the things that I have wanted to do, but have been pushing off as if someday, right? Which is that just proverbial nail in the retirement coffin. You know? That continually is the carrot that we chase. As if someday I'm gonna live, someday I'm gonna go to Scotland, some ga day, I'm gonna take that class someday I'm gonna whip out my art supplies. And I, I just got a chance to really do that and, and I got a chance to do that by contemplating, by preparing, by considering by. Setting up the systems, which are very masculine in order to allow that to happen, you know, And so that meant automated emails. That meant, you know, that my editor didn't get a break because he was continuing to publish podcast episodes that I had pre-recorded, right? So it was, it, it created for me. It became you know, a very premeditated. Ma it's like predating magic. Like I wa I knew I wanted to create this space for myself. Like, was it possible? Well, what would it take? You know how, and I, I didn't know right. Until I actually did it, was I even gonna like it? you know, I mean, so far the worst part about it is coming back to all of the anxiety that, that is back in the, that has me back in the trance. That's all the head trash, which is what it means to come back to work. Because I did enjoy it so much because I, because my nervous system did get a chance to fully, you know, like recalibrate and, and, and I had all this regenerative energy and like, so I'm, I'm currently kind of grappling with You know, just kind of note to self, right? Like, just like it's, there's going back to school jitters, it's like after you've taken a summer off, you know, there's kind of this reintegration process and be gentle with yourself and and be, you know, and bring in more of the feminine, which is compassion and you know, allowing the emotions and giving it space to belong here. And so, I'm not sure I answered your question, but yes and no. It was, it was MJ: No, it's so good. I love premeditated magic and I think my most practical tip it, you know, is sort of circled around that. It's like, because even the tiniest sip of pleasure will help get you through the day and you can use structures to support you in that. Maybe you're not taking four months off, but you block off your calendar so you can hang with your kid for half an hour after school, or you get up early so you can take a hot bath or you do a 60 second dance break in between calls. Libby: Hmm. MJ: I did before this call, play Angry Birds for 20 minutes. But you're doing it on purpose, right? I, I didn't do that. Like I need to numb out. It was like, Oh, I scheduled my Angry Birds time. I get to do this without feeling bad. And having those, like, those sips of intentional renewal and, and some, and then researching how much you need and when you need it. And approving of that too Libby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. MJ: Is just, to me it's just essential. It's been essential for me. Otherwise, I just a crispy fried bit bitter resentful piece of butter less toast. Monica: Mm-hmm. Libby: Yes. Melba MJ: right? Monica: Yes, Yes, yes, Libby: Unsalted Melba MJ: Un salted Melba Libby: it's so true. Monica: Without a drink of water Libby: Mm-hmm. like staring at the glass of water, dying of thirst. Like, Oh, Monica: Yes. Libby: Oh, yeah. You just fucking pick it up and drink it. Monica: Yeah. Libby: Yeah. MJ: I have so much else to say, but I wanna hear what Libby has to say and I wanna stay till the end if I can Monica: Til instead of the bitter end to MJ: Instead of the juicy Libby: Yes. The pleasurable, pleasurable end. I love this, everything about what you're both saying, and it'll come as no surprise that that's a lot of what, in my experience, what I struggled with and also what I see with other women is like the two things that I, one, one of them is, I call it if only thinking. I used to talk about this as a therapist. If only I lost a hundred pounds, then I could have a baby. If only I got my teeth fixed, I could put on my webinar. Yeah. If only I starve myself, now I can eat that pizza later. and that is fucking poison. It is constant delay of, I used to say, it really fucks up your now that if only thinking is you're just say goodbye to now. That piece has been huge for my healing and also it's what I see a lot in the spaces where I go and where I invite women in. The other thing is death by consensus. Like, Monica: Yes. Libby: You know, it's like exactly the, it's the same things that you, you two are sharing just like a different way of saying it, but like the not knowing how to approve of ourselves. And I'm, I might have said this on one of the podcasts though with you before Monica, but like I see it as we have this like inner thermostat and we are the only ones. It's of our value and of our own approval and our, you know, our temperature of what it's supposed to feel like when it gets to feel like, and from a very young age, in my experience and in the experience of a lot of women I've spoken to, we're taught that everyone else gets to put their hands on that dial except for us. So swatting away, those hands and being like, No, actually I'm gonna set this temperature. And I'm gonna stay there, and none of you get to touch that. And we're, I was so conditioned to, you know, have the death by consensus. Like ask every agonize over every decision. Ask everybody their opinion. Ask, you know, how can I, you know, I, I need permission to do this, be this, feel this, have this, so MJ: That's amazing. And they're so connected too, right? Because I'm even thinking of, I'm thinking of Libby, you know, this woman in, in one of my sisterhood groups right now was having, if only thinking, if only I could work less to have more time with my baby and husband. Then she got there and couldn't enjoy it because she felt like she should want something. because every, you know, Cause that's what the world was telling her. So it's like, she worked all this time to get this point and I was like, You're doing, you're doing thing you wanted And was like, Yeah, I should be inspired and like creating and putting, I'm like, Monica: I know, I know, But, but, but, but again, like, and this is where practicing these tools in sisterhood is so important because we, no matter what the conditioning kicks in. And so having the tools and having the women who are up to. A new conversation around this and who are repeatedly, you know, employing these practices is how we break free and continue to break free when we fall back into the trance. Because it's not about arriving somewhere some day where it's all fine and good. Deconditioning is a lifelong process and you know, we can sometimes see it, You can't unring that bell, but it's sometimes the ingrained behavior that despite our best intentions and despite everything that we've set up to not go there, that's where we end up going. It's like, it's like our default because it's, it's our conditioning. So you know, Part of the reason I'm so passionate about having these conversations and doing this work, and if at the very least, you know, you are not interested in being an entrepreneur or a business owner, get interested in joining a sisterhood of some kind, right? That, that really recontextualizes how, how women get to be together and are practicing, dismantling, internalized patriarchy in some way, shape or form. Whether that's in your business, in your relationships, in your parenting, in your life, you know, it's, it's everywhere. And and so, you know, I'm, I'm hoping that this conversation is valuable for other people. I know it's valuable for us and so I make up that it is valuable For For others listening to it, but it's something I'm endlessly fascinated with and I'm just so grateful, you know, that I've had a chance to partner with you two over and over again to create magical conversations that reveal so much and heal so much. And I love you both so, so much. Thank you. Libby: Love you back. MJ: Love you both Monica: and for our listeners, I'll be sure to put Megan Jo Wilson's links and yummy everything, all of her programs. And the same with Libby Bunten. I put Libby's, you know, all of her links in the show notes and anything else we mentioned and resources. And until next time, more to be revealed.