160 Dr. Joanna Kujawa === Monica: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and today I'm with Dr. Joanna Kuya. Dr. Joanna Kujawa is the author of the book. The other goddess, Mary Magdalene and the goddesses of Eros and secret Knowledge. I am particularly fascinated with this subject because of the way I grew up in the Catholic Church, and as many of you who listen to this podcast a lot, no, I often refer to. You know, kind of our experience in this world as living in the upside down where everything has kind of been turned on its head. And Mary Magdalene was one of those figures for me. I grew up kind of under this, uh, assumption or these teachings that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute instead of a prophetess. Um, and. In my essay, the Trance of Unworthiness that was, uh, aired on the Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast this past September. I describe how these microdosed messages. Um, really impact women over time. And so what I'm particularly excited about as it relates to Dr. Joanna Kujawa work is she's really done this spiritual excavation work that helps to establish Mary Magdalene's true story and, um, really kind of, Presents a whole new potential for women who are coming into a deeper understanding of the power of the feminine and how it applies to our role in modern society today, and why this particular archetype of quote unquote the other goddess is so valuable and important. So, Dr. Joanna Kujawa argues that the process of recovering the healing power of the goddess, um, we, we really have focused solely on the mother archetype, and we've left out this other goddess who's often represented in mythical historical stic sources as wise, mysterious, and in the possession of the healing power of arrows. Looking into esoteric traditions that celebrated the goddess and her art of sexual alchemy. Dr. Kujawa sets out on this detective journey to answer so many of these lingering questions about who Mary Magdalene really was, and she finds that Mary Magdalene stands at the center of this investigation. So today we're gonna learn about her portrayal in these agnostic gospels. A teacher in her own right and as Jesus's intimate partner and the possibility of her life, not only as a prophetess, but also as an alchemist in Egypt and some of her final years in southern France. So you we're also gonna bring in other goddesses today, perhaps a a few like Sophia or Aphrodite or Inana. Or isis. But basically what we're really doing today is looking at the other goddess as the bearer of the mysteries of sexual alchemy that really ends the division between sexuality and spirituality, which ultimately will benefit us all. So please join me in welcoming Dr. Joanna Kujawa . Joanna: Hi Monica. Thank you for this beautiful introduction. Monica: Yeah. Well, you know, after our last conversation, I really got clear about, you know, why this particular interview is so near and dear to my heart and why I just wanted to kind of have another chance to talk and to bring you and your incredible insight into really what I would call like a tapestry of conversations. And of course, I love that you call yourself a spiritual detective because , my real experience has been. I find that each person I speak to holds an important piece of the puzzle, and over time it's really helped me to establish much deeper understanding of the why, like why this information has been so fragmented, so suppressed, and ]so distorted for so long. So I'd love to really just jump right in and just start with, you know, the question of who Mary Magdalene really was and her connection to Eros. Joanna: Wow. That's a big question. But thank you for this because it's really a center central question of, of my book, the Other Goddess. So maybe I'll just start a little bit differently why I actually, how. Basically stumble upon all of us because like you are, you know, I was brought up as a Catholic. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: And as you can hear from my accent, I was born in Poland originally. Now I live in Australia. And, and I used to go to churches like you do, and I saw this beautiful image of Virgin Mary, but I also knew that somehow intuitively knew that it's not a full image, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: Especially that, you know, she was really stripped of her sexuality. And we are not going to go into Virgin Mary because we know that, right? Yeah. And then I saw this other image in the church, like on a side somewhere, you know, in the Naves that she, you know, of Mary Magdalene. And I could see that she was close to the teacher, you know, as agnostic gospels, uh, called Jesus. And, and, uh, but somehow she was always demean as a harlet and it just didn't feel right. And later in my life, when I was already. Going to adventurous on a trip to Jerusalem, to Australian men. I went, uh, to a, the church of, uh, St. Mary Magdalene, which was a Russian Orthodox church. And there I saw this image of Mary Magdalene portrayed as a very empowered woman. She was standing with her hand extended and, uh, with a, an egg in her hand, which I know the medieval story, and I think you're probably listeners also know the story, but I had a vision and also scholarly, uh, download, so to speak, that this kind of image of a goddess, not only of Mary Magdalene, but of many other goddesses, starting from sum extending knowledge, which I would call high conscicousness to humanity. And, uh, as I was doing research, I also realized that with high consciousness has also a lot to do with arrows. And I also, I own acceptance of Eros because all the goddesses of the past, whether from the western tradition like Mina Innanah, or Isis and Mary Magdalene, or some beautiful esoteric hindu goddesses, such as, for example, Rada or sundari, you know, they also use the erotic power to enlighten humanity. And in, in tantra, especially in esoteric tantra, uh, we know that there was a ancient woman's sage called , which actually introduced this tradition of sexual alchemy for the enlightening of, uh, the purpose of the enlightening of a human species, so to speak, to bring us high higher consciousness and bring us back to the moment of creation, so to speak. So, and then I thought, you know, like, why, why, you know, whether this whole question know how sexuality is portrayed in the mainstream media and, and, and why we always talk about, about sexuality, whether in religious terms or even just mainstream media as something sinful and extremely based and extremely animalistic. And that's fine. There is a part of sexuality that is bad, but as everything else in life, you know, and in this beautiful universe, you know, there are different levels to everything. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: and that Eros, I realized that they taught the, the healing power of Eros and also about healing our own sexuality as well as human species. And I really liked what you said at the beginning because you mentioned, you know, they, they were demeaned. And this is exactly how I feel about it. And this is what I write about in my book because as I was doing research for the book, I realized that, you know, I actually noticed. So I don't know necessarily who did it, although we know the system did it. Right. The patriarchy did it. But why? Why they did it. And when I thought there must have known that there is a hidden power in that truly empowered feminine, including feminine eroticism. I prefer to use eroticism to sexuality because how sexuality is being portrayed in the media that they were somehow afraid of, but they thought they have to control. and I believe that this is, I call, you know, we have to take responsibility as women to reclaim this power, you know, which is to, so we can bring really wholeness to an fulfillment, to, to human species. Because when we look at agnostic gospels, Jesus or the teacher always says, you know, you have to be fully human, right? You have to integrate everything that is in you. And as , the Swiss psychology says, you know, you cannot argue a shadow out of existence. And we started to treat our sexuality as a shadow, as something sinful and as something dark. So you cannot ascend. And these are also the teachings of the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. You cannot ascend as if you reject a part of yourself. So I think that, You know when you speak, you know, they use the term patriarchy as they were demeaning and suppressing this feminine power, not only sexual, but also I improving sexuality. They were also preventing us from. Fulfilling our potential as human species and also as divine beings in the bodies. Right? Because being fully anthrop, as Jesus teaches and Mary Magdalene Gospel, which means fully human, it is human, but realizes his or her divine potential. Monica: Yeah. I mean, when I can't help but really look at, I, I often say that this to my listeners is like, there's this diabolical brilliance in this. Once you start really seeing the, the separation, I always call it, you know, like we've been conditioned to live in the upside down. Hmm. and everything in this world, you know, that we've been taught. It's like if you're taught one thing, , I've started to realize then do another, you know, do the complete opposite , because it's just been, you know, more often than not that once the truth is revealed, it is the exact opposite of what you were taught and. You know, I've talked often about how we are taught that the body is sinful, just like you're saying, and that, you know, are redeeming to, to, um, kind of like ascend. We must go up and out, you know, and have an intermediary that actually helps with that. You know, if you were raised in the Catholic church like I was, where, you know, the true kind of, you know, as the mythologies have revealed, you know, that this journey is an invitation to go in and down. And I think it was, as I discovered more and more of the Gnostic texts that Sophia began to show up again as this voice of wisdom who requires depth and silence. And I thought, oh my God, that is so true and so beautiful and that the journey is within, and of course, thes are so connected to the hermetic Joanna: mm-hmm. Monica: philosophy, which is as within so without. And so there's a way that our. You know, our birthright has been so warped and so distorted and so fragmented, and that, as I had mentioned, and as you so beautifully kind of call yourself this spiritual detective work becomes really, it's just become the thing that's driven me, you know, to not only remember these fractured parts of myself, but to also, there's an aspect of my own psyche that has been deeply separated from my own Eros. Joanna: Mm-hmm. Monica: And so I find that part of the bigger tragedy of this. separation that we experience not only in the physical realm where you see the polarity of the masculine and the feminine and or for that matter, the left and the right, or for that matter, the Democrats and the Republicans, right? Like just the, in some ways there's just this, this constant division. And as you start to remember the within and these parts and pieces that, as you said, must be remembered in order to kind of come into this wholeness. And what I would say is also to come into this wisdom, to come into this Sophia or this no, this understanding, this self-compassion, this self-love that remembering that happens on the inside, then you can offer it on the outside. And I feel like that's the journey we're all on. Joanna: Yes, absolutely. And recently I was actually giving an interview in another language and and, you know, I was giving similar question about, you know, how can, what can we actually practically do? And then I said, you know, the fact that feminine energy is so strong, including, you know, feminine Eros, and I would like to perhaps elaborate a little bit more about it later is, and this is exactly the reason why it was suppressed, and we have to reclaim it for ourselves. So there are a couple of ways that we can, and so it's a huge responsibility on women because actually in all esoteric traditions, uh, It is a woman that is the giver of this energy. She's the carrier of this energy, and she can, uh, bestow this energy, this healing energy of Eros on a man. So man is the receiver of this energy. And then we can walk together. So, you know, and, and, and, uh, the divine feminine and the divine masculine as we were meant to, and especially if I do, just don't mind me to digress for a moment. In, in tantric text that I studied, you know, uh, for example, chapter 29 of Tantra Loka, which is the classic Hindu tantra, esoteric tantra, which, you know, later was moved into diff in completely different directions. They say, after that you'll be working like goddesses and gods on earth, which means you both fulfill your divine potential, whether masculine or feminine, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: But how can we do this? So one way is, you know, we have to remember the archetypes that of the goddesses that em embodied this. Right. Not necessarily from archeological point of view or you, you know, but just as an archetype. So I like to return always to the archetype of Goddess Nena, you know, from Sume, which is basically like three dates. Inana also, Inana is another version of Nim. But I think her representation there is the poorest, so to speak, of this kind of, uh, feminine in Western tradition. And, and Mary Magedelin as far as I know, is the last archetype that we know, you know, at the moment, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Joanna: or at least according to my, you know, spiritual detective work. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So I like how Nena is portrayed always. So she's sitting on the front, she's, you know, in control of her energy. She possesses it, she embodies it. Uh, behind her there's an upright ser. Can represent two different things depending on, you know, who you're talking to. But basically in esoteric traditions, it, it represents, uh, the awaken energy. In Hindu, it's called awaken Kundalini energy, but now also esoteric, uh, teachings of ancient Egypt al Egypt. Also show them the, you know, upright serpent, which is basically the awakened spiritual energy in the human being. And, uh, next to her is a tree of life, which is basically the tree of moving between different dimensions or even, uh, crossing between death and life and ascension. And, uh, across from her is a thing of a man, okay, who represents humanity, but also she, she represents the feminine power here, represents the masculine power, and she's offering him the fruit. Like Mary Magdalene, you know, has this egg in her hand. It's this kind of thing, and she's offering them him this. Right, so she's offering him this higher form of consciousness. So in all of this esoteric traditions, whether Egyptian or Sumerian or esoteric Hinduism, the woman is the carrier of his energy and only she can bestow it on a man. So it's almost, but they do need each other. So for, say, for example, let's go back to Eros, right? In esoteric tantra during the sexual act, you know, men is present there, obviously, because it's in, in esoteric tantra, as far as I know, it's always between men and a woman. So he, he's, it's almost like, you know, rolling Stones songs Start Me Up, right? So he's there, you know, to start the process. Then the woman who possesses her erotic power as a spiritual power, you know, starts to feel the rising or the energy rising through her body, and then she spills it over on the man. And this is men, gets it from a woman. And it's in every esoteric tradition that describes Eros as a spiritual power. So the reason why we need these archetypes and Mary Magdalene is one of them, although she's demeaned, you know, because for example, ISIS is another version of Mina, just like in Anna and then Mary Magdalene. But gradually, the closer you get to our civilization, her powers are demeaned until she becomes a harlot rather than resurrects. Monica: Right. And rather than a dis, an actual disciple, if not the most important or first disciple in of Jesus and his counterpart like his equal, his co-equal partner. Okay. Joanna: So would you like me to discuss this now? Yes. Yes. So yes. So I just, just move here for a moment. And the other part, part is that we can do, we actually have to reclaim it for ourselves. So I'll just close it. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: because at the moment, you know, we are not fully reclaiming it. We are caught up in the archetypes, but are actually harmful not only to women but to the whole of humanity and to as spiritual truth. Monica: Right. And before we do kind of launch in, I do wanna say for our listeners, you know, that. What I was starting to say right about the tragedy that I see is this disembodied, this disassociation from the body that so many women I work with have. And so the work becomes really reconnecting to this source energy. And of course there are so many incredible wo women out there doing this work of helping women remember their source power. And, and that's a beautiful thing. And some of those women are like, mama Gina, that or, um, my goodness, there's so many right now that I'm, um, spacing on some of their names, but I'll of course put some links in the show notes and whether or not Mama Gina is your style, it is what you're talking about. There's this way of reconnecting to that source energy and reconnecting or re embodying reinhabiting ourselves. I like to say. . Joanna: That's right. And you know, also not being ashamed of our bodies because in a previous talk we are saying, you know how when you reach puberty, something happens. And, and I think it's also a part of the brainwashing of society that, you know, like you suddenly being evaluated on your, on your sizes and you know, and it's something weird is going to, you and your body considered are desirable or dangerous, right? Yes. So it's an extremely debilitating relationship, you know, with your own body. If you are, you know, when you are a woman. . So we have to reclaim it and we, we have to reclaim what is my body, what is my relationship with my body, you know, and how I want my body, what, what is beautiful for me? Mm-hmm. , right? Rather than all of this external. And what is empowering for me, we have this external measurements, but you are very right. You know, even gnostic gospels, Mary Magdalene is portrayed as the favorite and top disciple of Jesus. And in fact, she has her own gospel, which was, uh, discovered in 1896, which is long bef, you know, over 50 years before the NAMA discoveries. However, it was not translated until in 1950s, uh, as far as I remember. And originally it was translated by the linguists who, you know, like they just translated word by word. And also they were brainwashed by the culture. So every time they said, oh, it must be about adultery, because it is about Mary Magdalene. So they actually mistranslated the text and eventually, you know, people, once it was translated from the Coptic in a very primitive way when people who actually. Like for example, Jean Lelo, who is a French scholar, who actually translated in a spiritual meaning Monica: mm-hmm Joanna: of the gospel of Mary Magdelen without any brainwashing. Like, oh, it must be about, you know, adultery or, she doesn't speak about adultery there. So if you don't, would you like me to speak about the Gospel of Mary Magdalene a little bit before we go to other gospels? Monica: Absolutely. Because you know, I know that there are gonna be some listeners that this is completely new that they don't even know that there is a gospel of Mary Magdalene. Joanna: I know, I know. Like this. This is amazing. And it was discovered actually, and there's an interesting story about it because it was bought in the, in Cairo some market markets, you know, but has actually discovered in panes in ancient Egypt, but actually modern, modern town in Egypt, which, you know, we can discuss later why it is important for Mary Magdalene's life. But you know, this. Is a mind blowing gospel, you know? So I really suggest that people read it and it, you know, or, or, you know, in my book I give a simplified version of it, but it's a very deep text. And Monica: I just wanna add that it's not like the Catholic church is like, yay, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene has been discovered. Let's talk about it. No. Joanna: Oh, no, no. In fact, like, uh, so can I just digress again? So, for example, I have like my graduate and postgraduate degrees from the Pontifical Institute at the University of Toronto. So I studied Christian philosophy. I, I, I, I have postgraduate degrees in it. I've not even heard about diagnostic gospels. It, it was my personal journey once I, I left that, that form of academia. So you're completely right. So it's not like that. They don't even want to look there. No. You know? Monica: Mm-hmm Joanna: .So, and why? Because, you know, first of all, I have to say that we have only part of, um, papyri, you know, in the different parts, actually, because there were different parts discovered over Egypt. So we don't have a whole of the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, but the, the part that we know, uh, Peter, who is obviously the Rock of a Catholic church, he, he's portrayed as the one that is, you know, least advanced. And Mary Magdalene is the one who is most advanced. So Peter, ask question, first question that we have. I think it's page six. We have page six as page one, basically because we lost the first pages. Uh, and he says, uh, teacher, what is. The sin of the world and the teacher, which is Jesus, you know, ha says, there is no sin. Okay? Like, so that's already your Catholic, you feel like, oh, thank goodness, right? Yeah. Because you're sin all the time. I remember it being a little girl and you know, father, I'm not working. And when I felt like, why am I not working? I didn't do anything, you know, like, yeah. So . So anyway, and then Jesus explains that, you know, we, uh, what is vaccine is basically when we make choices from our lower level of consciousness that is obsessed with the material wealth by material in physicality, act, uh, and, um, like accumulating things, right? Or from your grid, you know, Monica: mm-hmm. Joanna: or from your fear. And then it naturally creates negative consequences, right? Because energetically you come from a bad place, but sin as such does not exist. So that's very interesting. It's very interesting. So we are not born sinful, you know, we are not born sin according to Jesus. And then, you know, the second part of the gospel of Mary the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, which for me is the most interesting part, is when, you know, obviously the crucifixion already happened and the again, missing parts, right? So this happened and they all gather, all the male disciples come to Mary Magdalene and they beg her and they say, please tell us what teacher shared with you that he didn't share with us, because now we don't have him and you carry his knowledge. Right. That's very powerful. That's why the church doesn't want to look bad because you know, Pete, the church, the Catholic church has, has absolutely couldn't care less about women. They will accept anybody, you know, any form of diversity. But women are, you know, they have no use for women basically. Right? So, and that's interesting in itself. But anyway, so they gather there and then just, uh, I'll add that gnostics in generals believe that Jesus gave three levels of teaching. One for, you know, like regular people who, you know, maybe didn't have education like, you know, fisherman and, and, and farmers around the Lake of Galilee. The second one he gave to his disciples who had, uh, you know, benefit of his presence and energy of a teacher. Right? And the third one, the highest esoteric level of his teachings gave to Mary Magdalene because he considered her the only wealthy of this achieve, you know, of this understanding of his teachings. And then she proceeds to teach, uh, tell them and she agrees, you know? So they come to her and they beg her, and she agrees. She's very graceful. You know about that. And then she says that she saw the teacher. In her vision after his death. So it's another different version. You know, she didn't see him in the body, but she saw him somewhere between, you know, physical and, uh, immaterial. Right. So, so, and, and he said, bla, you are blessed because you are not afraid of seeing me. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: And she says, am I seeing you in the spirit? And which is Noma in Greek or Yuma? She, he says, no, you're seeing me in because you have news. So maybe I can explain what is news, because it's really ex important for the gospel of Mary Magdalene and all nasty the gospels. But if I get to technical, just tell me to shut up. Okay. . Monica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joanna: So news. So this is, and then she begins to explain what it is. So basically she starts to explain the journey of human soul to the ascension, to become the, you know, the entre, anthropo hu human, fully human as as, as the teacher thought. Unfortunately there are some pages missing. So she says that you have to go through the four climates, so to speak, four climates, like four steps. And the first step is that first you have to stop believing that you are only the body. You know that only just the meat. Because if you are le per, if you perceive everything from this level of your consciousness, then nothing can happen to you. You know what I mean? Like, that's it. You, you, you just can have a house by a car, you know, maybe have children, you understand? But that's it. And this is like a dead end, right? So if you are in a soma, so it's soma, so it's just this ma material kind of almost like modern science, Monica: Right? It's like, don't forget that you're human and divine. You're not just this body. Joanna: Yes, that's right. You're, you're just not this body. It's not just, you know, you're not just this. Bag of meat, so to speak. Then the second one is when you have that, you have the soul. But by soul, it's understood differently than we understand that now because it is, um, by, by soul they mean, or psyche. So the soul is not this understanding of the soul. Uh, and we're talking about esoteric Egypt and Neoplatonism now is understood not as eternal, but is as immaterial. So something that can go from life to life, but it's not eternal. It is basically your desires, your impressions that you carry from life to life, you know, so it's like immaterial. It's like your emotions and your desires Monica: Or your essence? Joanna: No, it's not your essence. Yes. It's not your essence. Okay. Essence. It's just like, for example, you have this, this desires, and even when you die, these desires are being carried on. Monica: Got it. Okay. Joanna: You know, life and, and, and this is your, kind of travels through the, through the spirit world, so to speak. So this is the second level. And then she says that the third level is when you ac actually have news and news, uh, can be understood either as part, you know, what we understand, maybe nowadays a soul or you know, what often is understood as higher mind In esoteric tradition, higher mind, it means the mind that is capable of perceiving eter eternity. Monica: So, and, and I would also maybe call that your, your higher self, your sage self, right? Joanna: Absolutely. So for example, it's body, which is basically your higher self. Monica: Mm-hmm. , right? So mm-hmm. Joanna: And, and what you have in your spiritual experiences when you suddenly, like for a moment, you just know it, you know, you just know it, you feel it, you are it. Right? So this is your news. And news acts like a hook, hook to eternity. So this is your link between who you are now, you are aware of it, your, this body, but you also know your desires and emotions, but you also a spiritual being as you are. Not that you have to give up anything and news is your hope to eternity and eternity, you could say is the divine mind, so to speak. You know, like the, it's is the, the, uh, the whole, the source. If you don't like the word mind, Monica: Okay? And, and some might call that the Godhead. Joanna: The Godhead. Yeah. Okay. Okay. You can, so, so this, you can hook into this. That's why he says this is the most important part because without it, you know, not much is possible for you. You, you have to develop your nose, you have to have his belief, you know, the connection, which comes with spiritual experience in my personal experience to that, you know, and then, uh, you know, you are one with Noma, NEMA is basically immortal, the immortal soul that merges with a divine go divine mind. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: Right? Then you don't, you, you let go of your, or psyche because you know, you, you, you, you can be one with a source, so to speak, using more than, Monica: right. So you let go of your individual kind of, yes. Ego. . Joanna: Absolutely. Then you are ready to let go of this individual ego. Yes. You know? Yes. Yes. And then he says, you know, as you travel through this different, you have to give up certain things. Like you have to be big up, uh, like certain attachments, you know, and there is a list of things you have to give up. And, you know, on this fourth level, and I, it continues, you know, to our previous conversation, which I think, uh, I have a better answer to your question because you always said that you were always traveled by the seven demons being exercise of Mary Magdalene, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Joanna: So it's interesting because once you reach the sport level, you know when, which basically one the divine mind, but you still em embodied, right? You embody it, but you are like, you have divine, you have access to divine consciousness, and this is what great sages always had. Like, uh, Christ or like Mary Magdalene and how do we know this? Because this, once you are there, you have to get rid of seven last elements that still holds you on against it. And then this is what he exercise of her. So she would be, you know, the woman who knows the, all this is agnostic, gust say, right? She's imbued with the spirit. He says, not agnostic, source, source. So it means she was already there, she just needed this last tick. Mm-hmm. , you know, like the last of the attachments, the last of, you know, pride or maybe, you know, the last, the last, you know, drop of ignorance. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So, no, there is seven things that, that were. enumerated there. And, and then I think this is what he did to her. That's very real story. So now after that, she was his equal. Right? Because she, she, that's why he says she, she's the woman who knows we all, she's imbued with the spirit. So in a, in gnostic source knows, uh, Sophia Peter again says, you know, why do we have to listen? She's a woman to her, you know, she's not, shouldn't be even Monica: Right. The great misogynist. Joanna: Yeah, the great misogynist. She shouldn't be even here. Right. Because, you know, this is how the times were. And, and basically Jesus says, Peter, shut up because she's in, but with the spirit. And I always thought it was a beautiful saying, but I didn't understand it until, you know, I committed myself for a decade and a half. That's to study. That's it. Yeah. to study the gospel of Mary Magdalene in every. Esoteric text has a, uh, in initiatory power. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: Okay. So I, I got it from two different texts. One is the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, and then, and then I realized what he meant. Inia saying she's in beautiful the spirit, which means she was one with Nema or Pin because, you know, the la he just basically kind of pushed her over the, you know, she was almost there. She just needed this last, this last thing. Purify her completely, you know her mind completely. Yeah. So, so, so she was already much more advanced with everybody else, right. But he made her equal this way because now she's imbued, uh, with the spirit. So you can see why nobody wants to talk about it. And when people would ask me, where can I buy a mar, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, I said, you can buy it on Amazon. And people don't know it because yes. Because nobody basically, again, so someone's like the silent treatment, right? Yeah. Like, so maybe nobody or, you know, Monica: Maybe if we just ignore it, it'll go away. Yeah, yeah. Maybe Joanna: if we just ignore it, it'll go away. So it's quite interesting because it is such a path for gospel. You know, they come to her, the male disciples come to her and say, teach us, because, you know, now we're hopeless. He's gone. Yeah. You know, and, and so teach us what he told you and didn't tell us, which is the esoteric teachings, you know, the. Level of teachings. So she's telling them what they have to do, but then at the end they say, how come, is it that the teacher talk to her in this way? Not to us. They get angry again. Monica: Yeah. And can I, I also wanna kind of just zoom out for a minute because what I wanna get back to also is this, these initiations, right? So what I'm hearing is that these final, I'll call them seven veils of ignorance mm-hmm. , right? Joanna: Mm-hmm. Monica: are lifted. So I just pretending for a moment that I know what those might be. To me as a, as a woman in the world today, they would probably still be the last remnants of the trance, like, , am I worthy? Hmm. Am I capable of, of seeing it all, of being with it, all, of holding it, all of my, of this sovereignty, of knowing, of tru, of this wisdom, right? Like these might be some of the last remaining questions or ignorance that I have, or perhaps they're veils of illusion that are being lifted where finally I can just see the final puzzle is, is all revealed. But what I'm hearing too is that Jesus initiates her and she symbolically is like all women. And then it's, when it comes to the earthly realm, it's women who are initiating men. Is that what, is that what I'm hearing? Joanna: That's right. So first of all, in the gospel, it's a fantastic connection that you made. So first of all, in the gospel of Mary Magdelene, she's initiating them because, you know, they didn't get it from him, didn't get it from Jesus because they still need her. Yes. She got it. They didn't . Right, right. And, and then when, when, I'm just kind of digressing back to esoteric tantra, when the woman is always, they give her, and shes her sexual energy there. She's the giver again, just like Mina is the giver, just like if is the giver, except that its completely turned on its head. The she, the upside down the and is bad, you know? And she's just tempting him because you know, you should, the three of knowledge you should not know. And this is, this is when I had awakening, oh baby, this is the only tree I want to know. Yeah, like, because visitor, you can know about the tree of life, a tree of knowledge. Bad, bad, eat bad. You know, Don, Don, bad girl. And I said, oh yeah, yeah, Monica: That's what I want. Joanna: That's what I want. And strangely enough, a woman is that tree of knowledge that, or I would say a woman, is that the energy that transmits the knowledge, the, and the experience. So what is really in interesting about Nouse, there is another word. And I think this is exactly what no mean, because very often people intellectualize about nouse. Mm-hmm. , yes, it's inner knowing, but it is also experiential knowing. Embodied, embodied, knowing. So you know, it's so shradda is like fa, but the favorite. you are that. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: you know, you, you, you are not thinking, I would like to be like Mary Magdalene. I would like to be like Jesus. Or you are that. Monica: Well, what I'm also hearing is it's the, it's the joining of the head in the heart. It's the yes. Embodied nose. It's like it involves both. Yes, Joanna: That's right. You have to, you have to have it like, you have to be awakened. It's not enough to talk about awakening or gnosis. What's gnosis? So this is what scholars or you know, some people will discuss until they die. But to have gnosis, it's to live it Monica: Right? Is to have the experience. Cuz you can intellectualize it all day long. If you don't know it in your body, it's never going to truly translate. Joanna: Yeah, that's right. You, you, you can just write academic papers and have discussions, but you know, you just talk about gnosis, you know? Monica: Right. It becomes a theory versus it becomes Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. It's a framework then, right. Yeah. But what is it? You don't experience it. You still have no clue because there is no words that you can actually truly. describe it because once you had it, when you had a spiritual experience, and this is what I so tried to explain, you know, my spiritual experiences, it's very difficult. It's like explaining a dream sudden, you know, Monica: Or mystery. And, and that's where I think sometimes we continue to use that word mystery. Because there are no words. Joanna: There are no words. Exactly. Because sudden you are giving understanding and experience of everything. And then like how are you going to explain it? Yeah. You know, in a three dimensional world, like I, I can and I try, but you know, it's not even close, right? Yeah. So the same, I believe that nais is this and this is when, and she had it and they didn't, and that's way come to her. So in all esoteric traditions, whether it is Hindu, tantra, esoteric tantra, or whether it is, you know, the gospel of Mary Magdalene, the woman has to give it to men basically, right? Yes. Because they did not, couldn't embody this. Monica: And so also like what I'm making up is that the woman is, What she's bestowing is the invitation to unity. Hmm. Is the invitation, right? Like and so why I'm saying that is like, I think that there's also, if we were to look at. And just surface for a moment. So many of these stories and mythologies, it's the same story over and over and over again. Just a different version of it where even, for example, ISIS and os Iris, that these stories are told over and over and over again symbolically, archetypically, showing kind of how this fragmentation comes back into wholeness or back through this, these four levels, right? Joanna: Mm-hmm. Monica: how this sacred marriage occurs inside, which then changes. The outside or the, you know, which kind of creates then this heaven on earth experience. Because once, you know, no matter what you see, you understand the illusionary nature of it. Does that, does that, is that correct? Yeah, Joanna: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. But I think agnostics were very naughty because they, and that's why agnostic gospel, that's why we love them. Yeah. Just, and that's why we love them. And you know, and that's why agnostic gospels were not included in the Bible because, you know, it would put everything, you know, on, on back, on the, you know, the way it should be actually. Right. I would say. Because they say, you know, like here, even, you know, like Mary Magdalene, what she's doing, you know, so yes, she, and, and there are no intermediaries. There are no intermediaries. You, you don't need the institution. It's a very personal search, you know, and a search of it in, when a woman plays a central part in, you know, as well. Monica: Well, and what I'm hearing is that she's even more equipped that her actual design is to do this. And Joanna: with her body. With her body, because then, you know, I kind of, uh, fill in the gaps, you know, from, um, also from esoteric Hinduism, which is, you know, it's very ancient and this is what this woman are that ri Some people say it's goddess, some people say she's a daughter of the original sage, which basically means, you know, original gods. You know, when she said that the woman's body is designed, you know, for this. You know, you can just use woman's body for this. And she did. You know, and this is what is described, but again, you know how evil patriarchy is. So now the gurus, you know, from Buddhism, Hinduism, you know, because use women. To get that to this point. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So my argument right now is we have to say we are in possession of the power. We give it, as you know, the carriers of this amazing secret knowledge, which actually is embodied in us. It's part of our bodies. You know, like you have to, uh, have, uh, you know, female genitals and you have to, you know, you have to, it, it starts with this. So we should stop, allow ourselves to be victimized or play a victim because it's just as bad, right. Just embody this. Mm-hmm. only your body, because it starts with this, because they cannot have it without you, you know? Right. But unfortunately, they completely disempowered women in all of these traditions being, because Hinduism and Buddhism is not better than Christianity, you know, in this respect. And they still continue using women for their own enlightenment. Mm-hmm. , but not, you know, but the woman is just used as a, as a, as a tool. As a tool. Yeah. And yeah, and, and, and most of the time, because I've been around gurus a lot, you know, actually don't even know what they're doing because they're not equipped to get what they're asking for. Mm-hmm. , they have to, you know, it has to be given. Right. So what they do, they try to get it just basically high on the sexual energy that gives you kind of enlightening. Experience, and it's possible to get it spontaneously, but it's actually the woman that has to be the giver. But women also forgot the art of this. That's why I spent a year and a half studying with Sanskrit text, you know, chapter 29, which I also described in my book to, you know, to, it's what I call sexual alchemy, you know? So it's a kind of ritualized use of error. You know, to your own awakening, because you awaken, he awakes. Mm-hmm. , you understand, you awaken this energy and awakening is not really an intellectual process. It is the energetic process. The energy, the divine energy or the energy of anthrop is moving through you, you know, or ize moving through you Monica: and, and then you are anointing, basically Joanna: anointing him. This energy is just peeling upon the men and what is more beautiful than intimate relationship or, you know, intimate even encounter. Because very often, and we can discuss more controversial parts of this, if you want, when you know you, you cannot be closer to each other and not only physically. If you truly at heart is truly open, you are one physically, spiritually, you know, emotionally. If you know you, you are one. And then it comes naturally the woman, because it is encoded in her body, you know, so the woman, when she, her body opens up. You know, she has this energy and this energy is generously bestowed upon the man, and they share this vision of complete belief and cosmic consciousness together. Monica: Mm-hmm Joanna: you know, what's, what's there to hide. And, and you know, obviously as we said, people must have agendas because why didn't, not even meant something like that. Or men desperately in the form of different gurus try to get it, but you know, they really can't, you know, they just, uh, basically victimize women sexually trying to get this understanding that you cannot get it from a woman who is not empowered. Monica: Yeah. Well, and also that a woman who's empowered actually knows whether, right, like whether or not this guy is actually, uh, to be bestowed upon. It's almost like he has to have the proper key. Yeah. Right. But she knows, like she intuitively knows. And if she's already kind of there, she's probably not gonna fall for it anyway. Joanna: Yeah, that's right. So what I mean is it is all, it is a little bit, I would say also above us. So woman, you know, it's not that she knows and she makes it, you, you probably can withdraw it. I don't know. I didn't have an experience of withdrawing this energy, but uh, I left it to, you know, to the energy which is called, you know, Shati kini or you know, it could be called poly spirit, which is really mistranslation of Sophia. Right. Because it was translated mis translated from Latin, became mu from the feminine, you know, so the spirit, so to speak, that's moving through the woman or the energy because the. It doesn't include really matter when energy is both matter in spirit and everything, right? Yes. Yes. It doesn't have dualism, the energy this that is moving through a woman and a woman is possessive of this energy, will decide whether to share this with him or Monica: Yes, the energy decides. Got it, got it. Yes. Joanna: The energy decides, you know, I don't even, you know, like, uh, you know, we can be diluted so easily, especially in such close relationship. The energy decides, you know, is he getting it? Monica: Well, and again, I'm just struck with, you know that I call it the trance of unworthiness and you know that energetically it's her worth and her knowing her worth that first of all activates this energy and then that energy decides whether he is worthy or not. It's like you cannot make this up. Joanna: That's right. Like any, and it's not an and, you know, and that's right. Absolutely. You put it, I cannot put it better, so I'm not going to repeat it, but exactly that. You have to have a sense of work worthiness. So, , uh, people say, oh, women have this wonderful energy, and I just feel like, oh, I'm rolling my eyes. Because I think, yes, they have this wonderful energy, but they're not giving it from the right climate. Right. You know, level. Because if you give it, because I have to, because I'm a woman or it is my duty because I'm a woman or because Monica: I'm married, it's my duty or whatever. Joanna: I'm, I'm married or whatever, you know, you already degraded this energy. Yes. You are not walk like a goddess on earth and that cannot, you cannot make him walk like a God on earth. Yes. Because you already, you already degrading the energy that, that, that is, is, is inco in your body. So you know, you have to feel this worthiness. Worthiness. But in my case, I had to study and again, so it was the first text, that study of a text who had the initiative power on me. It just, you imbibe the text as I did. Yes. And then the energy started to move from me, but you have to know it. But I actually open up to this energy, you know, from the text. And when after I start, stop, uh, studying the text, then I had the experience actually of this energy, you know, like just decided to activate itself. It initiated me so I could initiate the man. Yeah, it is, I mean, like, think about it, . Monica: Yeah. It's amazing. I love, okay, what I'm hearing that's very different from this, that I'm getting this time that feels so critically important is that. , there is a timing when the energy decides to initiate or release or activate in within you. And what I love about that is my own experience of, I remember being on a plane and having this kundalini activation within me. It was literally the most mind blowing, like suddenly I, I was like, I cannot, like, it was kind of one of those ener, one of those moments where like, either I am so turned on right now, but like for all the wrong reasons, , like, it was like, you know, they're offering me airplane food and I'm like, oh, I'm in the middle of the sky. And I was having this like full on, right? Like I didn't even have words for it at the time. It's only in hindsight that I was like, oh, that was a Kundalini rising. But the in interesting thing is, . I also wanna offer, you know, that I happen to, you know, and this is just a little bit of my personal story, but I, I, for some reason I'm finding it relevant, so I'm gonna bring it up that my, my first marriage, you know, didn't turn out. And I really noticed that in my partnership that I've now been in with this same man for the last 14 years. , the whole container that I feel like he created for our relationship was centered in this consistency, safety, and it was so grounding for me who had come from really a lifetime of trauma. Like I didn't, again, recognize my trauma until I could really see it for what it was. But then I, of course, I kind of married a version of my trauma and it continued. And so I found that there was this, there were these series of events that made it possible for me to re-inhabit myself, because for the longest time, Joanna, I was. Caught up here in my head. And of course my clients, you know, and the, and the women that I really am in service to. Uh, it's all about kind of coming back to the body. Hmm. And remembering this piece coming down out of our heads or wherever we have been disassociating and so many women, as we kind of share our stories more and more in these sacred circles have shared over and over again that many times they're not there when it comes to, you know, their sexuality. Right? Yeah. That, that they've literally disassociated and are not able to kind of like resolve that portion. And I do find that that is kind of the final frontier for women is kind of. Re reactivating that essence and reconnecting to that because that's where that microdosing of the trance and the sinfulness and the, you know, kind of these polarities of the virgin and the horror as the two options have just done such damage to the psyche. And so for women to kind of come home to themselves, there's just a whole lot. Uh, I find that needs to happen in many cases. You know, there are those outliers that can kind of like immediately have the revelation in their back, but I find that otherwise it's, it's a process of remembering. I wonder if you have any, uh, words or experience or insights. Joanna: Absolutely. It's a process of remembering and you know, of. a additional, I think, layer of trauma, which is not only, you know, what we are being told about our bodies and what we are not being told about our bodies and the power of our bodies, but you know, it is ancestral trauma as well, you know? Mm-hmm. , uh, people have horrific experience sexually, you know, and what happens to war in war to men, we know, but what happens to women is sometimes more awful, right? Yeah. And it's very often complete sexual, uh, rape, basically, right? Mm-hmm. , so, so we have it. Uh, lots of women have this encoded in, have in that genetic memory, so this is maybe a part of this dis dissociation, but the inability. to trust the man, the inability to enjoy the erotic act, and the inability to, you know, why would I even bestow any man with anything? Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: You know, because there's this, so we have to go through immense healing, but I do believe that this healing starts with healing of our bodies and acceptance of our bodies, you know? Yes. So, you know, uh, doing meditations, you know, on, on, on your body. You accept my body, you know, I, I love my body, you know, my body is scary of a se of sacred knowledge. Of a sacred energy where it is uniquely feminine. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: that, you know, the world needs me as I am embodied, not disembodied. Monica: Mm-hmm. , you know mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Joanna: And I think that's right. It's extremely devious, but all religious, uh, of the world. And I hope I'm not getting into trouble, you know, here. No, they actually completely, completely not, demean is not enough to say. They basically, Attempted to completely destroy this energy. Yes. This, this, this feminine energy. And I think that, you know, in, in narcism there, there's this idea of also, you know, this malevolent powers. And I think that some people, actually, some institutions do embody this because all they're so afraid of this beautiful power and they, oh, you know, it'll be completely outta control because, you know, women are irrational, you know? Yeah. So I think they just have the fear Monica: and wanton. Yeah. Joanna: and everyone. Oh, yeah. You know, and , that's a different story. I actually have some stories about it, about saints, which are hilarious. But, but you know, I think that they do not realize that they deny themselves, you know, ascension basically within this. Monica: It's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Joanna: Exactly. This is what they're doing. You know? So times are changing, you know, and this documents were discovered for a reason. Like, you know, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and Hammadi and, you know, for a first time in English, you know, uh, some country documents were of esoteric tan, not just, you know, other forms of tan are being translated and people, you know, find initiative power in them. So we are on the right track, and I just would like to, you know, when we're finished with this, that, that the world needs it. It's not about just women empowering themselves, the masculine energy, which is this kind of rational energy of, you know, engineering energy, so to speak, which is beautiful in its own. I, I love, man, I love, it's called it tantra, you know, Shiba energy. You know, I'm very sensitive to it, you know, like, I love it. It's beautiful. , right. But it went already achieved what it can achieve by itself. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: and in fact, it's taking us in the wrong direction of artificial intelligence of, you know, some bio, you know, engineering, which is horrible at civilization. And we as species, I deeply believe will not survive. Unless we activate, you know, this feminine energy, which is actually called in our bodies, and then we marry this because we are supposed to be together, you know? Yes, yes. Masculine and feminine. We embody this, but you cannot achieve anything that is of any good anymore by suppressing the feminine and going solidly from the pure masculine energy because it is taking us in a very long direction. Monica: Yes it is. In fact, the other day, Austin, my partner was showing me a video of a robotic machine that could do, could jump and skip, and I was just like, oh my God, this is horrifying. I mean, it was highly intelligent. Joanna: And it is very, it's more intelligent than that because you know, like I work as an academic and recently we had a meeting about, what is it? Chat's, G p T. So it means you can ask a question, they can add perfectly wonderful essay. Monica: I know I just read about that, where you could actually have a book basically written by a machine. Joanna: I know. And you know, and there's almost no way of recognizing like detecting. You understand, so mm-hmm. . So as a, like, for example, as an educator also, which is my kind of day job, right? Like, you, like I, I, I wouldn't know, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, unless it's a personal reflection because this, this, this artificial intelligence is honest this, well, this is what I can do, this is what I cannot do. Like personal reflection. Then if you read it when it's kind of, you know, ah, no, I don't think it's human, you know, but like an essay, they can do like at least 70% essay. Monica: Unbelievable. Joanna: Yeah. You know, so, so, so we, and so this is completely wrong, and what we're also doing, we are becoming unaware of creators, which is very dangerous. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So, you know, all of us futuristic films about, uh, you know, artificial intelligence, rebelling about humans because it is like rebelling against irresponsible God. Yes. You know, like we have to evolve first before we give life, you know, to, to something else. Even if you want to, Monica: Right? Like what I hear you saying is that we're unconsciously creating what we don't want because we're unconscious about what we're creating. . Joanna: Yes. So we're creating something that is more powerful than us in many respects. Yes. And for what end, you know? Monica: Yeah. For what end. I know it, it's like my mind will only allow me to go to a certain place, that I shut down. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've just absolutely loved this conversation. I'm wondering is there any question that I haven't asked you? I, I mean there's so much, right? There is so much. I feel like how did an hour just fly by already? And I feel like we're again, just getting to it. But is there any question that you feel like you wanted me to ask in this interview that I didn't? Uh, Joanna: if you don't mind, I would like to discuss, you know, Mary Magdalene in Egypt. Yes. Because just, just very briefly, because you know, people are interested in it, so it's kind Monica: of, um, I have time if you have time, so. Okay. Thank you. Don't rush. Joanna: So I know that there is a pretty good evidence. You know, especially medieval evidence, you know, but Mary, because of, there is a long-standing tradition of Mary Magdalene in France, especially in province, and then the Kath were leading in seven Western France. They also maybe not, didn't believe that Mary Magdalene was in France, but they owned Mary Magdalene as the top disciple of Jesus. And he's Parnate. So I know, and there's lots of written about Mary Magdalene in France, however, and it's probably good evidence, however, it is a medieval evidence. Mm-hmm. and I, in my book, in the Ava Gods, I thought, okay, like, Just didn't seem right to me. Maybe she went to France. But by the way, even the French sources say that she went to France 12 years after the event of crucifixion. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So what was she, even if she did go to France, Monica: Right? What was she doing for those 12 years? Right. Joanna: She couldn't stay in the holy land because they all, you know, were para, you know, like they persecuted, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: So she had to go somewhere and just for scholarly research of other scholars also, you know, I found out that, for example, and, but often Mary Magdalene and Jesus were, uh, associated with the ASINs in John Va Baptist, which was like a, we call, called Begley group in the Holyland. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: And then I was doing research about, um, about a group called Therap Therap, which is in Ancient Alexandria, which was the center of spiritual, spiritual center and scientific center, uh, of the wealth at that time. Right. And were tics, abide really. . And, but there was this group called Therap, which is called the healers who were connected, who were, were connected both with the members were often Jewish, but they were also connected with the temple of Isis because Alexandria was so multicultural. So there was not like a strict Judaism venue, you understand? Mm-hmm. , like ev every, it like a mixing pot. Right? So they were associa to the temple of eyes and they were also called spiritual healers. You know, not only physical healers and spiritual healers, and that they also, um, accepted women into bad circles. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: Right? So, which was very unusual for the times, you know, in both times. So I was thinking, knowing Mary Magdalene's connection with the since and, and. and you know, that there was this group where that accepted women. I thought perhaps it would be wise for her to go there. Right. Especially such a advanced place. And then I learned that the therap, the therap had a connection with scenes. Wow. You know, so they, they were in touch with kind of so-called groups in the Holy Land. Right. So like . So I thought like that's a nice possibility that, you know, she would know about, first of all, she would know about Alexandria for sure. Right. But that there is a group there that accepted women who were spiritually gifted and intellectually gifted, and that we had a contact with other kind of non-traditional spiritual groups in the holy. And then I ask myself the question as a spiritual detective, was a woman in the first century Alexandria that could fit the description? Yeah. And it's, it's just a hypothesis, but I honestly completely bought into this. And of course there was, it was, uh, a woman who was called Mary the Jews, or Mary the Alchemist, or Mary the prophet. It's one in the same woman. Ah, and in, in, uh, the open library of, you know, Israel, I found it's a historical person. So it's not like, you know, people write about Mary, uh, the Alchemist and the, and then I found, which is also historical figure, who is an alchemist who lived in, uh, Alexandria, but came from Acme. You remember where the gospel of Mary Magdalene was found in Acme, what was his name? Zos. So was that z. ? No, no, no. It was like a, a a a, probably Greek Egyptian. Right. Ok. Like, like, like a Egyptian, but you know, with a kind a westernized Egyptian, you know, because it was the, the times when, you know, it was, uh, uh, Hellenized is the Got it, got it. Okay. And he was a great and historical figure, so it's, I checked my facts, you know? Monica: Right. It's legitimate. . Joanna: Yeah. So, and he says that, you know, he's speaking about other alchemists who specialize not in very raw alchemy, which is, you know, basically turning, uh, metal into gold. Yeah. But in a spiritual alchemy which specialized in ascension, for example, like Gospel of Mary Magdalene Right. That I mentioned before. And he said that one in the first century, one of the predecessors, because he's from the third century, one to three, was this woman, uh, called Mary the jus, who was also the prophet as simply because she had a spiritual knowledge who was an alchemist. Mary, the Alchemist. Mm-hmm. Right. So, and, uh, so I thought of That's very interesting. And that she was teaching the spiritual alchemy, the art of Ascension. Yes. Dr. Gospel of Mary Magdalene. And so I found it's really interesting that the gospel of Mary Magdalene was found on Acme, and he was from Acme. You understand? Yes. So there is this kind of missing link connection because there must have been tradition there of that already. Yes. Right? Yes. Because yes, there, there was, this source was found in acne. So I come this hypothesis that, you know, Mary Magdalene actually, and he also says that there reason why she could open our chemical school when, you know other Egyptians couldn't because she was either Jewish or half Jewish or half Egyptian, you know, because Egyptians couldn't share their knowledge with the foreigners. Monica: Mm-hmm Joanna: okay. and esoteric sources when we are talking about hermetic sources before mentioning Jess before Right. Also mentioned that Mary Magdalene was probably only half Jewish because they think that her father was Egyptian. Interesting. And that's why there was something unclean about her because she was a hybrid. Uhhuh . So it's, it wasn't sexual uncleanness, so to speak, but because this Egyptian man who was actually devoted of Isis married a Jewish woman and then had Mary Magdalene. Yes. So I think makes perfect sense for her to go back to the group in Alexandria who was associated both with, you know, a, um, nasty groups in the Holyland and with the temple of Isis. And that there was this woman called Mary the Alchemist, who was also a prophet and coastal called Mary the Jewish because she was probably mixed blood. Uh, so I think that maybe she's Mary Magdalene. Yeah. And even if she went to France, even the French sources, medieval sources, which means much later sources, you know, Talk about her going to the holy land after 12 years. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: and not the Holyland, I'm sorry, going to France after 12 years. Right. So maybe she was for 12 years in Alexandria and went to France. But, uh, I think that this, um, hypothesis of her is makes perfect sense because if I were Mary Magdalene and I was this woman who, you know, knew VI all and uh, you know, is in beauty with the spirit, uh, I would go to the place where I could continue teaching Yes. Rather than disappearing somewhere, you know, and than going. Monica: as some kind of hermit in a cave somewhere. Joanna: Right? Yeah. Which may be late in her life. She did, you know, but I think she, they come to her, the disciples come to her and ask for a teaching. So obviously she, and she says, now let's go, uh, around the world and, and teach that. Right. Monica: She's a teacher. She's a disciple. Yeah. She's a priestess and, right, Joanna: exactly. And even in medieval sources, like the golden agent, when she comes to some people, you know, to southern France, I think she lands, you know, she amazes people with her eloquence talking about the spirit. So obviously maybe by then she decided she had enough. Right. And, and then she goes to the cave and she meditates, you know, and so on. But maybe so, but I think it's again, a little bit convenient that, you know, the one woman twist us that was around Jesus, you know, just decided, oh, I'll be silent. Yeah. Although she's carrier of. Of the knowledge that he shared only with her. So I think personally that this hypothesis that she's married, the, the prophet as, or the alchemist in Alexandria makes more sense to me. So, so yeah. But Monica: it's just, it's very likely, and I think again, like this is where these threats become so important to be, you know, to have a hypothesis about, because I think that part of our remembering process is also the reinterpretation and like, Re-looking at some of these, not only historical events, but also as I was saying kind of in the, in the beginning, you know, there's, there's these different puzzle pieces that could put together. And as you kind of look at the possibility of a number of pictures, the one that you've been given suddenly doesn't seem at least in the same realm anymore, you know, that it's actually becomes far more likely that there is our other possibilities. And while we don't have the full picture, I think we have enough of a picture to to know that. What I continue to kind of come back to is that as women, we are to sit on the throne of our own worthiness, and that whatever is keeping us from sitting on that throne, you know, and straightening our crown, is often this trance of unworthiness and looking for the places that we were given the Kool-Aid or the microdose, you know? Mm-hmm. that that's where the exorcism needs to happen. Not , not the way we've been taught. You know, that the exorcism is exercising the patriarchal trance out of our psyche and out of our bodies because it's in both places. I feel like. You know, that's where there's this complete disconnect between the head and the heart. And what's in the middle is patriarchy, . Joanna: That's that's right. And the patriarchy is in the middle. And, and I always say patriarchy, Debs debilitates both women and men. You know, men are absolutely because of patriarchy, you know, and because we are, because we are only like, see half of themselves. Right? That's right. And, and, and so, uh, we, we need each other, but it starts with honoring women by men. But first, women have to honor the. Within their bodies, not outside of their bodies. Monica: Yes. And so the journey continues. I've loved this conversation so much. I feel like we have journeyed all the way around the world and back again. But , I love, I love, you know, I love your work and I think it's so important. I know that you, not only do you have this book, I know you've done other writings, but you also offer classes. And I wanna give you an opportunity to talk about that because, you know, I think it's important. Um, you know, you are, um, very much kind of walking what you talk and so I'd love for you to invite our listeners to learn more about you and to hear more about the courses you offer and anything else you might wanna mention. Joanna: Thank you so much for this opportunity, Monica. And I also enjoyed that conversation because I usually have kind of organic approach to this, you know, so I let the energy flow from, from me rather than trying to control it. But for anybody who's interested, and it's really not, and it's not coming from any form of, you know, ego, I would just like, you know, offer my book The Other Goddess simply because, um, she's my rebellious daughter, you know, she doesn't have the hangouts I had, you know, she just, I I I just go for it in this book, you know, this is this version of myself, my spiritual journey and, and experiences that I had. But she's actually separate entity, you know, like she, and, and she, she, she has her own soul now. I love that. So, you know, if you want to learn something about things that we discuss now in a very simplified way, let's put it this way, because where are scholarly works? And I, the reason why I chose not to write. Hundred percent academic book. It is because when it's not accessible to people, there is a story here. There's a personal story, which is back up of spiritual experiences, RIA, my own and other women. And also it's backed up by research and my experience, initiative experience with sacred, esoteric text as well. So it, it has also at the bo at the back, it has a reading list. I don't have any references, but the reading list, if you want to do more, you know, there is something there. I also, uh, have a course called the Goddesses of Erors and Secret Knowledge on my publisher's side. And, and you know, where, where I discuss. You know, the mostly goddesses of Eros, but it has five modules and one of them is on Mary Magdelen and what we discuss here, and each of this modules has a guided meditation as well as structured journaling. So basically specific questions. And I'm also on Facebook as Dr. Joanna Kujawa, which are in English pronounces So, you know, I know, uh, I, I respond to both and every pronunciation of my last name, I'm on Instagram and I have a small YouTube channel, but, uh, this book is when I saw my, my, my daughter and also this is my song, so to speak. Yeah. And I think this is this kind of soul with, of every woman really, you know, rediscovering what is my actual soul and how can I have a relationship with my soul as also an erotic element. So, uh, so that's it. That's, that's me, . Monica: Thank you. Okay. And just, just out of curiosity, what, what are you up to, right? Do you have any new projects in the works? Any, what's your vision for, you know, like what you wanna be doing now that you've got this great accomplishment and your, your beautiful daughter, which is your book, , your rebellious daughter? What else? Joanna: So, at the moment, I've been so busy, you know, with talking about this book, and the book was just translated to Mandarin. So, you know, so, and I, I'm just coming out of this and I'm starting to have some ideas, maybe writing about goddess consciousness, but also about maybe some specific women. Monica: Mm-hmm. Joanna: you know, that carried this regardless consciousness, but it's, I'm also asking like academic papers. So I have certain opportunities opening up for me, but I'm sitting with them because I wanted, I don't want to jump into anything and I want something that actually the energy, you know, that I'm em onboarding. wants me to do yes, rather than something sounds good or, you know, maybe I should do this. So I'm almost like open to opportunities. And then I'll let the energy take me there. Monica: You know, . Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that you're waiting kind of for that, that surge that tells you Yes, go this way. Yes, Joanna: that's right. I, I, I don't know, to make a rational decision. I, I'll just go with the energy. Mm-hmm. , and it's a beautiful space to be. Monica: Yeah, it is. I love that for you. And thank you again, Dr. Joanna. It has just been such an honor and a pleasure. And for our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Joanna's links in the show notes and of course, other resources as well as my own story from the Breaking down Patriarchy, uh, episode if you wanna hear that. That's what I started with. And until next time, more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com. And be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.