117_Natalie_Claire
===
Natalie: then a year and a half later, a year into graduate school, I went back to dancing and that's a whole other story and actually kind of fell in love with the work again, because when I left, I was so burnt out.

It was so beyond the point where I should have been there. And then when I went back, you know, I, I really fell in love with it again. And it got through graduate at school debt free. Like it was just absolutely incredible. But again, I started feeling at a certain point that there were parts of me that we're not, we're not going to blossom.

We're not going to be able to be revealed to me when I was still doing that work. And it got incredibly obvious. You know, this is a point that I love even, you know, when I'm, when I'm working with people, you know, mostly women I work with is like, when we're in that place where it's like, oh, this is not working anymore.

Like, something is not like, there are parts of me they're pushing up really freaking hard against the edges right now. And something needs to change. And so I'd say in the last year or so of my last time going back, that started really happening again. And it was about this part again about intimacy and partnership being in the world in a more exposed and vulnerable way, getting uncomfortable that, that kind of, that tether and that anchor

===
Monica: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Revelation Project Podcast. Today I'm with Natalie Claire. Natalie is a holistic coach, a therapist, and mindfulness teacher who spent 14 years working as a strict. She's been a dedicated Buddhist practitioner since 2006, the same year that she began dancing in strip clubs in 2009, she hit her alcoholic bottom and stepped through the doors of recovery.

Over the past 12 years, she has been uncovering, welcoming and integrating all the parts of herself. She has come to learn that it's only an inviting every part of ourselves to the table with compassion, care, and love that we are then able to truly feel that we belong in the world. It is her passion, joy, and honor to support others in the process.

That has and continues to heal every part of her. Join me in welcoming Natalie. And before we do, I also want to point to another part of this conversation that I think is really important, which is that toward the later part of the episode, Natalie, and. Begin to address the question of strip clubs and the patriarchy reflecting back on what she had said.

She wanted to make a note that the comment around strip clubs existing because of the patriarchy could be taken out of context. And so the statement for her is both true and untrue, depending upon the context and the lens through which it is stated. What she's really pointing at here is her belief that the intersections of patriarchy, capitalism and other systems of oppression create a perpetual need for places to escape the role

prescribed, which I think is so astute and is so important for us to recognize. So we got to a big part of a very important conversation here, and we unpacked a whole lot of layers. And she's going to be joining us again for another episode soon, but this topic in itself is incredibly complex and nuanced, and definitely needs more space to be explored than we had time for this time around.

So we both recognize that there is a need for much more to be uncovered and revealed around. No pun intended, and that's why we'll be doing a second episode to continue the conversation on exactly that. So without further ado, welcome Natalie. Hey Natalie.

Natalie: Hi Monica.

Monica: It's so great to finally have you. We had to reschedule a few times. Didn't we?

Natalie: We did. Yeah.

Monica: I trust the timing here too. Yeah. Yeah.

Natalie: As do I? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's great to be here

Monica: And tell our listeners, where are you sitting in the world right now?

Natalie: At the moment I'm in Oakland, California in the bay area. Yeah.

Monica: Wonderful. And how is how's the weather there?

Natalie: It's absolutely stunning today. Actually, we had some really heavy rain over the last couple of days. And so it's that clear, beautiful after rain really fresh and lovely and cool weather.

Monica: Gorgeous. Yeah. And we're, uh, we have balmy new England days, which is kind of strange because here we are in December and it's, it's actually kind of balmy and even comfortable out right now.

It's, it's always so strange. Right. New. England's kind of like, if you don't like the weather, just wait a minute. It'll change. Yeah. So I love, I love your bio. I love that you just get right to it. And I especially kind of love, I love this conversation because. There's a way that you represent these, what most people think of as like polarities, that, that don't exist in the same space.

And yet they so do exist and belong in the same space. And I love how, you know, you really spoke of your journey of inviting all of these parts of yourself belong here. That's this my language, but it's like all of these parts of ourselves that we can tend to abandoned because depending on our conditioning, we've been taught that certain aspects of ourselves are dark or shameful or wrong, or don't belong in the same space with the sacred.

Natalie: Yeah.

Monica: The more kind of what people would consider. More let's say virtuous qualities. And again, I, I I'll call bullshit on all of that, you know? So I love that we just can create a conversation today. That's that's really about making space for all of it.

Natalie: Yeah. About making space and, you know, Name right away that it's an ongoing journey.

Monica: Yeah.

Natalie: It's a forever ongoing journey. And so while I've been really fortunate and really privileged to do a lot of work, I always really want to name that. I'm still an always in the thick of it, that it, that it continues that the layers continue to fall away and parts continue to reveal themselves if they feel safe and welcome and ready to do so.

Monica: So tell me, where would you like to start this, this conversation? I have some areas of curiosity, but I'm just wanting to invite you to kind of just, how about this? How about just starting with telling us a little bit more about like, what makes you you?

Natalie: Oh, wow. You know, it's interesting because as I'm sitting here, something that I am, that I'm noticing that's coming up is.

This, there's a question that it's like, oh, do I belong here? Do I belong here? Do I have a right to be sitting in this seat right now? And you know, today I can recognize that as a voice, I have a certain relationship with that voice that is. I think, you know, that has taken time to develop. So I can notice this as a voice and I can honor it and I can just know that it's here.

And, but I would say that for me, so much of my journey has been that question, like, do I belong here? Do I belong here? You know, where do I belong? I don't feel like I belong anywhere. And so I'd say if I were to describe there's so many ways to go about it, but you know, what makes me me in so many ways is that so much of my journey was.

Feeling of just not, not belonging, not the, a part, not being a part of, not really knowing, knowing my place in the world and feeling very, very, very separate and very different than, than the people around me. And so I think what makes me me is, you know, among other things, there's so many ways that I have wrestled with that question over the course of my life in so many ways that I've healed around that question over the course of my life.

Monica: So what did that look like? Nat growing up? Like what did that, I don't belong here or do I belong here? What did that look like growing up for you?

Natalie: Yeah, you know, I grew up in a home. There were a lot of challenges in a way that I grew up and I had really loving parents, but it was just a very, very chaotic time when I grew up in.

And so I always just kind of felt like. I think there was some kind of wise dissociation that happened for me as a child, but there were parts of myself that were very unsafe to be expressed. And we're really not welcome in the space that I was in and were not reflected and held. And, you know, some combination of that and probably my character and just general conditions in my life.

And I just really felt different. You know, when I was a kid, I felt really different from other kids. When I was growing up, I felt very different. I didn't really understand. How people were in relationship. Like I just kind of felt like I just didn't grow up with secure attachment. And so I didn't really understand how people connected really intimately and deeply.

And I almost thought people must be faking it because it was so foreign to me. I didn't understand that that could actually be a real thing. And I kind of the way I've often described it, as I felt like I had kind of like this invisible impenetrable bubble around me, everywhere that I went and I could not figure out how to get on the other side of it.

And that was true when I was a kid and into my teenage years and, you know, well into my twenties in a lot of ways, even. So just a real feeling of. It's like other people know how to do this thing, this life thing, this relationship thing. And I just really don't and a feeling of really needing to keep that hidden a real fear that people would find out that I was very different and broken and separate from them.

So kind of a chronic separateness, I would call it for, for most of my early life.

Monica: I love the word you used the wise dis association, like right there. Right? Like that, that speaks to me of like a wisdom like of, of survival.

Natalie: Yeah. And there really is, you know, there's there. And when I, you know, when I am in my own work and when I work with other people, I think it's really important to take the blame out of the ways that we hadn't had to.

Abandoned parts of ourselves or tuck them away into very safe, little tight boxes. And there were lots of good reasons for that. You know, I really bow to that part of myself that that knew how to take care of herself at the time.

Monica: I can relate to what you're saying. And I really caught when you said the wise disassociation, because I'm going to adopt that because I too have come to really bow to those parts of myself that knew what to do for, for my, uh, preservation.

Yeah. Right. And, and, and also knew when to call those parts back home.

Natalie: Yeah.

Monica: Yeah. So when I think about behavior and how that looks in terms of, you had talked about kind of the hiding and then in your bio. You talked about sobriety and kind of like, and so were there various kind of addictions where they're numbing behaviors?

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. Many.

Monica: Tell me more about that.

Natalie: Yeah. Well, you know, the first thing is I had a lot of, you know, I was a kid that caused a lot of problems when I was a kid. I was, I, my family are immigrants and they come from a country in north Africa that at the time was French. And so I was received financial aid from the French government to go to a very active.

Bilingual school in LA. And so, you know, we were kids that did not have a lot of money that went to we're in an environment that was very different from the environment that I lived in. And so already, really early on, I was like, oh, always kind of rebelling, you know? And I think it was a lot of projected different ness and insecurity.

And so at first it was, you know, a lot of talking back and getting into trouble. And then finally, you know, they kicked me out in 10th grade and, and then in high school, Yeah, I, I, you know, I had a lot of issues with food, my whole life. I had a lot of insecurities around my body and so a lot of food obsessions and restriction, and later on bingeing, so restricting and bingeing and really addictive exercise patterns and a lot around the body, a lot around how I lived in my body and control and started smoking a lot of weed when I was in high school and experimenting with different drugs.

And then over the course of the years developed a relationship with, with alcohol and bunch of other drugs and, and then even well into, you know, into recovery. I've been sober for over 12 years and there are all kinds of other, you know, symptoms of my, you know, of my, of a heart that, you know, still needs attention that have come up over the years.

And so I wouldn't say that. But all of a sudden I got sober from drugs and alcohol, and then those things stopped. You know, in, in recovery, I have had, you know, many years of using a lot of sort of body control and exercise and fitness and all these things that look great on the outside. But that I know now we're really obsessive, controlling behaviors.

I've done a lot of cutting over the years, well into my adulthood. And so again, these ways that I, that it's very embodied for me, you know, the ways that these things can out in the ways that I need to or choose to, again, for different reasons, escape from being really, really in my experience and work was another big one, you know, working in clubs for years, just disappearing into the club.

I mean, there was nothing better for someone like me even to be able to just disappear into that work. And so over the years, yeah, A whole toolkit behaviors that I'm super, they get more creative even over time.

Monica: Yeah. Well, and here's where I want to get really curious, because I love that you used the word disappear for that word, because I would have thought it would have been the opposite

Natalie: because we're taking all our clothes off.

Monica: Yeah,

Natalie: Yeah. I mean, gosh, that's a whole, we could just open that. There's a whole lot to be said about,

Monica: Well, let's go there because I think, I think part of, part of what I love about this conversation is again, it's like as soon as we venture into this territory of. Sex work, stripping nakedness, sexuality.

It's like it, it becomes like the taboo, the unspoken, the, the hidden.

Natalie: Yeah.

Monica: And, and I think there's so many misconceptions about it. I think there's so many people out there that are so confused. They don't have language for it. And, and because we don't talk openly and allow all of these conversations to belong in one place that people feel really alone and really isolated in their experiences.

And, and I think that's part of, part of why you do what you do and part of why you're absolutely sharing your story. Yeah.

Natalie: Yeah. So you tell me where, you know, How you want to open that up?

Monica: Well, let's go right into the disappearing. Like help me understand how, like for me, I would be thinking, wow, no, that would be actually far more visible than invisible.

And because I have, you know, such a fear, I have, I have kind of this fear that stands side by side, I'm petrified of being seen. And I. Petrified not to be seen. And then you talk about taking your clothes off and I don't even know where I could put that. You know what I mean? Like yeah. Yeah. I'm still someone that struggles with that from an upbringing of tremendous shame.

So even the idea of doing that from a place of like, for work, like that's one conversation doing it. There's so many conversations here. So what I want to say is like all of it, like let's just sure. Reveal reveal. Yeah.

Natalie: Yeah. Uh, you know, and it it's, it's complex, right? Because, so this is, this is the thing.

So the first time that I ever walked into a strip club, so I, you know, I explained to you to my whole life, I kind of felt like. Hi. Like, I just didn't feel like I really belonged any, like I just did not, I could not really relax anywhere. And the first time that I ever walked into a club, it was like, like, this is where, like, it was just where I belonged, you know, I just, it was like the first time in my life that I, and I'm feeling some emotion around it right now.

Just the first time I ever felt. Oh, God like I'm home. Like this is where I belong and just the people, the women, that environment. And when I say hidden, it really is like, you know, you walk into a club and the door shuts and it's the same all the time. It could be the middle of the day and it's dark and it's cozy and it's like our little cave.

Right. And we're really walking out of the rules of the world. Like I never understood the rules of the stand, what the

app.

And then you go and do a climb and it's like, oh, it doesn't even matter anymore. Like they just don't apply. It's a portal. Like those rules just do not apply anymore. And for me, there was such a freedom in that when I got there, you know? And it's, it's interesting when you're talking about being hidden or being exposed, I would say, because the thing is, you know, when we walk into a club and sometimes this is tricky to explain, it's not the same anymore.

You know, like in the world, there are a lot of ways that I want to feel hidden and unseen. Like me being able to go into a club and take all of my clothes off and be exposed in front of people does not translate to me being in the world and, and feeling that same way in all areas of my life.

Monica: Just going to say it, I'm like having such a revelation. It's like, you go into this telling me, well, it's like, I'm imagining you going through this portal. And you're like, oh, I don't have to hide here. Yeah. All of me belongs to.

Natalie: Well, so, and I actually, so this is how there's so much we can say it's so this is where things get interesting. It's like, oh, I don't have to hide here.

And yet there are parts of me that also aren't being seen here that are safe from being seen. So there's an openness, there's exposure, there's vulnerability, but it only goes so far. Yes. Right? Like the walls are very clear and there's an intimacy, but that intimacy also has its own boundaries. So like out in the world, you know, so I, you know, since we're unpacking, I am a pretty classic avoidant attachment.

I, and I'm working on that. That's something I'm really now leaning into more in my life. And so in a world.

Monica: Well, and I was going to say, and for our listeners, would you mind just describing as best you can? What that means?

Natalie: Sure. Oh yeah, of course. Yes. So we all are. You know, we're all raised in different ways.

And as a result of that, we develop these different, what are called attachment styles, and there's one that's called secure attachment style. So, and I'm going to super oversimplify my backgrounds in counseling psych. So we can spend a whole thing on this, but, you know, we either, because of how we attach to our caregivers, we develop these ways of being in relationship and our lives.

And the, you know, I am not securely attached. It means that I didn't really get the kind of nearing and holding and safety that one would have needed. Again, I had really wonderful parents. There were just a lot of conditions that were very challenging. And so what that means is that I was conditioned in a way where I didn't really feel safe being in relationship in the world or being open or being vulnerable.

I learned very young that, you know, my, my style of attachment is avoidant. I learned to avoid. Intimacy. And so what that looks like as an adult is that I could probably go my whole life without having an intimate partner and feel pretty okay about it. Like, it's just like, oh, you know, I don't really need it.

And so the way that that's expressed itself for me is this kind of hyper independence. And I don't really need anyone. Then when people try to get close to me, like, you know, I kind of felt sorry for them, you know, there's and so that's been sort of my, my development. Is that, is that enough said, or should I say more?

Okay. Okay.

Monica: I I'm really also re relating to that. I have a similar attachment style to you,

Natalie: Huh? Okay.

Monica: And so what else I really know about this is it can manifest in very, very different ways, right? Yes. Yes. So, yeah. So take me back to kind of the club and where you were starting to really say like, yes, you, the revelation that I had about going through that portal and suddenly there's like parts of you that belong here that don't belong in the kind of the patriarchal rule bound world.

Natalie: Yes.

Monica: And it's still a club inside of, you know, a patriarchal world where yes, here you can, some parts of yourself are able to be exposed and there, you can have that freedom and there's other parts as well as boundaries in a Missy that doesn't those needs or those parts of you are hidden or still.

Natalie: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And the way that, that would express itself for me, I would say if we're talking about avoidant attachment, is there is. Something incredibly satisfying about working in a club and having all of the, you know, I have danced for thousands of men. I danced for 14 years, you know, and four and a half of those were in Vegas, which is like a factory.

I mean, it's just like constantly. So I've had these thousands of moments with mostly men over the years and, and there is an intimacy to that. And there, there is something very special about that. And yet at the same time, in no way, does it challenge my avoidance in no way, is this part that's hidden having to reveal itself in that environment because it's very safe because I'm in control.

I don't have to be vulnerable. So there's a way that, yes, there's this freedom and openness and. And with all capital letters, there's a safety and a protection and a kind of disowning or hiding that happens at the same time that I really always want to name. When I talk about that work right there, it's both and both had both.

And, and so probably part of the reason I felt so comfortable in there too, was because of that. Like I had all this control, whereas in the world I felt so out of control and so uncomfortable all the time, because I didn't understand the rules of relationship and, and belonging and all of that. And then in the club, I got to decide, you know, like I got to make those rules for myself.

And I, you know, it was like a bunch of other kind of just. Women you all, we kind of all had our and it's a culture, it's a culture that I never felt a part of a culture before until I was in there. And so does that answer kind of,

Monica: Yeah. And, and the next question that comes up for me is like, at what point did you see, like, okay, now I get to do this and, and belong in this way and there's still something missing or there's still something more. Tell me about that.

Natalie: Yeah, there's there. Gosh, they're probably different answers for that. So when I, I was working in, I was working in Las Vegas for some time and I, I guess I hit what I would call kind of like an emotional bottom. When I was out there and this is around 2013 or so, and through some kind of string of circumstance I was pointed toward, and there's a, there's a 12 step group that I've not been a part of that, that I, you know, had been introduced to the literature around it called sex and love addicts anonymous and somebody, or I don't even remember.

I ended up with the list of kind of like what it means to be an avoidant. And I remember reading this list and was like, oh my God, like, this is, this is me. I've created this life for myself. That has really allowed me to be incredibly avoidant of intimacy in this particular way. Right. It was, it was a revelation for me.

It was like, boom. Like I got hit in the face, you know? And at this point I had been many years sober already, and this is the other thing we're only ready to see what we're ready to say. And so that was one that was like a first big, huge shift. And at that point I actually quit dancing and I'm putting an air quotes forever.

And then, and so I left the work with this commitment to working on this, this part of myself and, and then a year and a half later, a year into graduate school, I went back to dancing and that's a whole other story and actually kind of fell in love with the work again, because when I left, I was so burnt out.

It was so beyond the point where I should have been there. And then when I went back, you know, I, I really fell in love with it again. And it got through graduate at school debt free. Like it was just absolutely incredible. But again, I started feeling at a certain point that there were parts of me that we're not, we're not going to blossom.

We're not going to be able to be revealed to me when I was still doing that work. And it got incredibly obvious. You know, this is a point that I love even, you know, when I'm, when I'm working with people, you know, mostly women I work with is like, when we're in that place where it's like, oh, this is not working anymore.

Like, something is not like, there are parts of me they're pushing up really freaking hard against the edges right now. And something needs to change. And so I'd say in the last year or so of my last time going back, that started really happening again. And it was about this part again about intimacy and partnership being in the world in a more exposed and vulnerable way, getting uncomfortable that, that kind of, that tether

and that anchor

Monica: Yeah, it's true. Right. Like when I think about intimacy someone once used the words into me, You know, and, and that had me get intimacy in such a different way. And that's when I realized to what extent I go to hide certain parts of myself that I don't think are worthy or that I don't think. If somebody knew the whole truth.

Natalie: Oh yeah .

Monica: Darkest truth that I would still belong. That I would still be loved.

Natalie: I'm getting this feeling. I'm wondering what's happening in your body is you're saying that. Cause I'm getting this really strong feeling in my chest, as you're saying that, I'm wondering, I'm just curious if it's all right to ask.

Monica: Oh yeah. I mean, for me it really taps into the deepest source of my unanswerable question. I say unanswerable because I had to learn that the only one who could answer it for myself was me that who I needed to really get intimate with was me.

Natalie: Right. Yeah.

Monica: Right. Like, like that, there was that that becomes the root wound for me, from which all things were layered on top of, and it took me just forever and it, and I still see aspects of it that come up in different circumstances, even now that where I'm like, oh, there it is again. Right. But it's it's so it has so much less power over me, but it truly is this invitation to continual continually offer myself this radical self approval, this full permission, and this boundless love to myself, you know, that has no conditions.

And it's like, Like no kidding Monica, like no conditions. I will love you no matter what. And as I say that, I need me.

Natalie: Yeah. I find myself having all these questions for you now appropriate flow. Well, you know, I, I imagine because I, you know, I got to meet your, your partner in the beginning of our time together and, and it, and it felt so sweet the way that you two clearly, you know, make contact. And, and I imagine that that field has been such an opportunity for you to meet so many of these parts of yourself, given that you like me have this avoidant tendency and yeah. And I see you nodding your head.

Monica: Oh, I mean, this man has taught me so much about unconditional love. I mean, and he's taught me so much about intimacy and so much about staying. You know, cause I'm, I'm the backdoor girl, you know, like I always have an exit. I always have an escape. I always know where the exits are.

Natalie: Oh yeah. Yes. Let's see. So this is interesting because in the way that you feel like. Dancing feels so exposed. You can't imagine there's a part of me. That's like, wow, that feels so exposed. I can't imagine. Because again, that's the work that I am, that I'm doing now in my own life. And so for you, it seems like I'm the one who's really exposing for me. I'm like, oh, now I am safe girlfriend. Like I have this shit stuff under control. You are the one who's really exposed and seen and vulnerable and receiving. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm just noticing that right now.

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. And the, and the thought, even as you're speaking, like the thought of like dancing naked and even in front of him, like, I'm like

Natalie: topless oh. Saying in my case top was, but yeah, never naked,

Monica: But I mean, and, and that's, that's where I can get really clear really quickly about, about where those edges are still, even now. Right. So, so it's, it's fascinating because this idea, this conversation of exposure of vulnerability safety in a messy it's so rich, it's so fertile for so many fascinating conversations about our human side and our, and our spirit, you know, and this is the part that I love this bridge that you've built as well for yourself, which is around your mindfulness practice.

And these juxtaposed supposedly ways of being in the world, which is.

Natalie: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I just caught something and I just want to name this before even moving on, but it just struck me when you said naked and I, and I said, no, actually not naked it. So this is another interesting piece. I just, I just really noticed as it came out of my mouth is I've always danced in topless clouds.

Monica: Yeah.

Natalie: And I just realized, like, as I was saying that, that there still was a part of my body that felt like, oh, this I'm keeping myself safe or covered in this way. You know, it's like, oh, I'm exposing this part of my body, but this actually is not exposing. I don't have a lot to say about that, but I am kind of noticing that right now, you know, it's like, oh, and I naked it, but I'm not. \Fully naked. Right? Like I'm still keeping this right. piece to myself in some way.

Monica: Well, and it's, there's a, there, it is like the word that comes up for me as we're talking is conditions. Conditional.

Natalie: Yeah.

Monica: And, and here's the other thing, like, I want to, you know, invite our listeners as we're talking about all of this. It's like, it just, it all gets dip along here where there's nothing figure it out. Right. Like we're having a conversation that I'm willing to kind of fumble my way through, because it's so provocative for me, uh, you know, to kind of reveal it, like, what is it? You know? And, and also to really,

Natalie: yeah, yeah.

Monica: That there is this, this part of me that really like it. I do get to do life on my terms and. It's more about finding the places that I'm still holding myself back. Not because I need to be able to do that in order to feel free, but more to like know for my own self, where am I holding back and where, and to what level would that exposure or that type of exposure either like liberate or reveal something different in me that I don't know from this vantage point over here.

Right. Because I've never dared to go there. And so, you know, we, we re we've talking about vulnerability and nakedness, but the truth is I feel so utterly. Naked when it emotional ways like that, that's actually like one of my super powers is to be naked emotionally. And, and until they just reveal it like the darkest grittiest, most kinds of unsexy thoughts or bore behaviors about myself, but then put me in a situation where I have to stay in my body and be naked and exposed and I would disassociate immediately.

And I think that has more to do with like my religious upbringing and the, and not having ever really exercise the muscle because, and for our listeners, Natalie, and I know each other through Megan, Jo, Megan Jo's work, which my listeners hear me talk about Megan Jo all the time. Megan, Jo Wilson and rockstar camp and her work was derived.

Through some of Mama Gina work who wrote pussy, a reclamation and the womanly school of arts. And it was really all about that book. And Megan Jo's work combined really kind of helped me talk about opening a portal into, into my birthright as a woman. And, and this is where I think we start to thread in the conversation of pleasure and safety and how, how we as women navigate a patriarchal world and create more space actually for.

The feminine for the uninhibited, the, the fully permissioned, the, the unhidden, the revealing the in all ways, because again, I think, you know, there's many, many lenses to look at this conversation from, but if we continue to kind of look through the framework of the patriarchy, this is where so much of these patriarchal to religion for me is where so much of this unresolved shame dwells.

Yeah. About my body, about my physical nakedness.

Natalie: Yeah. And it's, you know, as you're saying, oh gosh, my mind is going like a million directions around that right now. And you know, something I've been reflecting on a lot and, you know, if I'm to relate it to this experience of being, being a dancer, right. Of being a woman, who's exposing her body in a certain kind of a way.

That, you know, I would call this a shadow side, right? There is the shadow side that everyone carries their shadow. And there is the shadow side and patriarchy that is not open to women showing and using their bodies in certain ways. It's not open to being it, not open to women being empowered in certain ways that is not comfortable with their own nakedness or their own sexuality and their own sensuality.

And so, as dancers, as sex workers, we really reflect that, right. We become these sort of receivers of the projections of shame and a disembodied parts of self and disowned parts of self that are woven into the narratives of patriarchy and of our culture. And that women carry that too. Right? Like, so for women, we, a lot of women have a very hard time with sex workers with, with me, you know, I know that there's something very challenging about.

The, you know, in one thing that I hear a lot from people's oh, you know, oh, you don't, you don't look like a stripper. What is that? Like?

Monica: What does that even mean?

Natalie: Yeah. Right. What does that mean? Right. This idea of what is acceptable and what is not, and the, in a black and white, it really boggles the mind of people to hear that.

And, and, you know, so much of that, I think, and I'm feeling the way that I'm relating to, to what you're saying is that we have a culture that is not ready or open to, or conditioned to, or, or supported by conditions to open to these parts of themselves. And so again, they get disowned, they get disembodied, whether it's in, you know, whatever body it's in.

And then we, you know, as sex workers, as dancers really ended up. Reflecting an unacceptable disembodied part of self in our culture. Yeah. I mean, that's just, what's really coming up for me as you're talking right now.

Monica: Oh, it's so well said. Yeah, absolutely. And again, it is, there's a lot here. Right. And so I think as we are kind of revealing and encapsulating certain aspects of this conversation, I think what we're discovering is that there's so many different threads here to explore and to honor, and as I kind of sit for a minute, I'm also just really present to like, there's so many, there's so much that comes up, that challenges people's ideas about what.

All of these parts of ourselves represent and we tend to want to compartmentalize absolutely. Versus the both and the end of leg, you know, and even, even when I think about what we're really up to, or what I'm really up to with this podcast is the revealing of more of the divine feminine and the unbecoming process from everything we've been taught to believe, to reveal the truth of who we are.

And if the truth of who you are, gets to be your truth, it doesn't have to be mine, but it gets to be fully yours. And you get to feel seen by yourself and others. That it doesn't have to be my truth or her truth or their truth. Yeah. And that also, as we kind of rewild ourselves, it's like exploring these conversations and exercising these different muscles of exposure, vulnerability, turning something on its head and looking at it from an entirely different aspect.

It just, that to me is like nectar. Yeah. So Natalie and I chose from the Wild, Unknown Archetype and we chose the card nectar and it's also known as the medicine. And I think it's so appropriate because there's mediecine here. There's medecine in this conversation for women, you hold medicine. I hold the medicine.

Each of our listeners who are out there, hold the medicine for this unbecoming process. That that is a medicine that is uniquely our own. And so it also is interwoven deeply with our personal stories of belonging, vulnerability, intimacy, and what it has taken us to survive and thrive in the world. Yeah.

Yeah. So what's here now, Natalie.

Natalie: Yeah. I really, you know, I'm really feeling into it all. And even as I'm talking about. You know, the, the symbol that a sex workers, body represents in a patriarchy. Right. And the ways that, yeah, just the, the ways. And I'm just, and I'm really thinking about self identified women, you know, in, I'm trying to think of the words, it's just, it makes it hurts my heart, really, you know, the ways that we have been taught to.

To reject parts of ourselves or leave parts of ourselves, or, you know, that this part is spiritual. This part is not, this part is acceptable. This part is not this part of your body is okay here. This part of your body is not okay there to be seen in this way is okay. And then there's this longing, right?

And I experienced this with so many, um, you know, the women in my community and I work with, it's like, there's this longing to be embodied and expressed in a different way. And then there's so much conditioning around, you know, what is okay and what is not right. And, and I, you know, I've mentioned that my practice for many, many years has been a Buddhist practice, you know, Theravadan meditation practice.

And that, that is evolved over the years. And so much of that has been about opening to the whole of, of what's here and who I am and getting very present and very honest and very real with myself about the ways that I've been conditioned and how I bring my truth and integrity into different parts of my life.

And it's a very painful process, really, a lot of the time, because of the ways that we've been conditioned, right? Like you said, compartmentalized, like this part is welcomed. This part is not, this part is spiritual. This part is not. And I think what was coming up for me is kind of painful when I was speaking earlier.

Is that the ways that when I'm thinking of self-identified women in particular, the kind of. Confrontation. It has caused between women a lot of the time because of the ways that they have been conditioned. Right. And that's a whole other, a whole other conversation. I think that could be had,

Monica: Well, it it's, it's like this internalized misogyny

Natalie: Absolutely a hundred percent. That is a hundred percent what it is. Internalized misogyny. This message that certain parts can't be expressed and seen and touched into. And so they get projected when, when seen in other women's bodies really, and it's, it's heartbreaking.

Monica: And that's where, so much of like that puritanical culture and those, you know, it's, it's like the Madonna whore split or like, right.

Like, there's, there's so much here because it does it's, it's all of this, you know, and what we're pointing to in what we're creating a container around is kind of the toxic soup of patriarchal projection. Yes. Um, in terms of the hatred of women's bodies, and I want to go one step further and say the envy and the hatred of. Power to create

Natalie: Power was the word that's exactly right. Right. It's it's bodies and it's power really. It's, it's, it's being empowered in, in, through this body that, you know, that is identified as, as woman.

Monica: Yes. Yeah. We're still unpacking it thousands of years fucking later, you know, it's like, it's really, you know, I mean, again, I talk about the trance, the trance of unworthiness it's, it's like what, there's so many incredible women, because again, I experience what we're all going through in the world as kind of this massive shift in consciousness.

And what, you know, I would say is, is the apocalypse in the, in the Greek term of the word, which is. To lift the veils to reveal that's the actual origin of that word. That's what it means. And so we're in a time of great revelation and I believe it's in honor of what has been hidden and what has been missing to create harmony.

And that is all of these divine feminine energies and the power and the full self-expression, including all of which the feminine holds, which is all of it. Which is all of it. It's just all of it integrated, right? It's right. Integrated and interconnected, including, you know, that and, and being able to not only see ourselves in everyone, in an everything and know that it's all connected, like through that this web of life, that there is no compartmentalizing in the feminine, there is no doing that.

Like our natural state is one of wholeness and nurturing, right. And in order to know that we have to know the opposite. And so we've spent thousands of years knowing the opposite. And what we're revealing now is these paradoxes together, standing together and how to integrate with these paradoxical. Ideas and energies and allow them all. \

Natalie: Yeah and even as you're saying that and talking about kind of more collective and I'm feeling into that, even on a, you know, on an individual level is to know the opposite and to be awake to that when it's happening. I mean that yes. You know, as so much of my practice all these years, which I'm so grateful for is, you know, that, can we wake up to where we're not integrated?

Can we wake up to those parts? . And can we really know them? Can we really be in that place where we're disconnected and just get really close up and really intimate with it, like open or like open up our eyes in the places where we're not in alignment around these pieces? Like for me in the club for that last part of the time, it's like, oh, this does not feel right.

But instead of checking out, can I stay really awake to what is not. Working here, really present for this experience. So I have choice. Right. And you made the infinity live. I know we're not, you know, the podcast, we, they can't see it, but there is, it's like, okay, in order to be able to integrate these pieces, I have to be really willing to get really honest with myself around where that's happening and to build the safety in myself, to be able to see those things and stay present with them.

I mean, that's a whole other conversation, right?

Monica: Yeah. But, but it, but it's also such a, such a tool for, for the, for the noticing that the body holds that wisdom. Absolutely.

Natalie: It all happens through the body. It all happens through the body. And when we're disembodied, when we're disassociated, we're going to miss that.

Monica: So, so much of this work is about coming home to ourselves. And about that full permission included. All of the ways that we feel and Intuit the world and cause that's, that's our signal for what's missing in that moment for what the medicine is for the medicine needed for this moment or that moment. It's, it's a big, powerful conversation. And I, and I knew, I knew you were the one.

Natalie: I can feel my body temperature rising over here. I'm like, oh my God, there's so much to say,

Monica: There's so much to say,

Natalie: you got me talking about clubs and patriarchy. I get like all and I just won't go off. Thank you for being open.

Monica: So open and I love this conversation and um, I'm hoping our listeners do too, because I find it endlessly fascinating and compelling.

It's like talk about fertile ground for so many conversations. And I think, I think Nat for me, it's like, Because it's, it is the juxtaposition and it's so, and it's so exposed in its juxtaposition, suppose it juxtaposition, you know? So I would love for a moment to tap into what you just said, which is strip clubs and patriarchy, and what comes up for you?

Natalie: Oh my gosh. I mean, there could be so much to be said

Monica: about that. So I'll just title one episode. That's going to come strip clubs and patriarchs. Totally. I,

Natalie: so I'm thinking more along the lines of like fear and for the listeners in this moment right now, that could be because there's so much complexity in that question, right.

For us as, as dancers, as sex workers about. How we're living in that, right? Like what is our part in that and where are we empowered and where are we not, I mean, it's, it's such a huge conversation. I'm almost, we're reluctant to start to go there. The, the, the place where I would name it here right now is the thing that I would mean just kind of in the, in the, in the field of the conversation we're having is, um, yeah, this, this part about like, oh, this is dirty.

This is not okay. Being in your body in this way. It's not okay. Being empowered in your body, in this sort of identified women, woman, body. It's not okay. Right. And, and there's, yeah, there's just so much to be said about that. I I'm finding myself stuck because it's hard to kind of bottom line.

Monica: Yeah, no, it's okay.

Natalie: Because everything, because a strip club exists because of the patriarchy. I mean, the only reason that a place like that can exist is because of the system that we live in and because, and it's very lucrative work because it is so hidden and forbidden. And the reason that that is true is because of the conditioning of patriarchy and the ways and the Madonna whore and the ways that we're taught to relate to our bodies and our sexuality and the ways that we're permitted to be in the world and the things that need to stay hidden.

This is all woven into the patriarchal narrative and all of these things become expressed through. What it means to be in a club. Right? I mean, there are a million things I could say about the ways that men express themselves in a club that are also results of the patriarchy too. Right. And, and because I don't feel like, oh, you're a man and you're that?

No, it's like, they also are victims of the narrative to express themselves in very particular ways in those environments, because of the ways that they've been conditioned to be outside in the world. And so the, the reason the club exists is because of the systems that we're in. And because there's a sort of need for a place for the shadow to express itself, it has to be hidden in dark places behind walls.

And that expresses itself in the club and through our bodies, as sex workers and through the relationships that we have with our clients that come in through our relationship with, like I said, when I show up in the world and people's ideas about me and who I am, and, you know, they're fucking like Mies, excuse my language, mind boggled, when they're like, oh my God, you're a starboard.

How, how is that possible? Like they can't, they short circuit sometimes because of who they see me as in the world. And that is all a result of these narratives of patriarchy and what it means to be an integrated, fully expressed, respected woman in the world. But that just doesn't compute for people with the ideas that they have about that work.

Monica: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, more to be revealed on that, right. Because we'll just call that episode hidden and forbidden, and

Natalie: we'll just, we'll just have a whole series

Monica: seriously, seriously, seriously, good stuff. So I know that we're just like I knew this would also like, just fly by, but you know, there were a couple of things that, you know, we, we talk about revelations that you, that you really wanted to share with our listeners and, and the one that, of course I love the most is the revelation that I'm assuming you had, which is every part of you belongs. Every part of you is worthy of your love, attention and care.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is what I would hope, you know, in terms, you know, we're talking about the nectar today, that lovely card that you pulled with the rose, which is my symbol, it's kind of wild. You pulled it, but then yeah, that, that would be my hope.

If there would be one, you know, if there could be an expression of my life work, that that would be my hope with it. That would be it, that, that there is no part that doesn't belong here. And that, that can look many ways in terms of how it's expressed in the world and how it's integrated, but that there, this compartmentalized associated state that we live in comes from this rejection of parts itself, and it shuts down our, our vitality and our expression and that every, every part is welcome.

Really, there is, this has been my experience and this is my work. And my journey is all of these ideas that I have, that, that parts of my. We're not welcome here that they don't belong in my fullness. And my expression is, is not true. It is not true.

Yeah. It is not true.

Monica: And, and with respect to how you work, you know, with your clients, I'm sure that that is a massive theme.

Natalie: Absolutely.

Monica: Right. Is exposure is exposing those parts, honoring those parts, integrating those parts, welcoming them back home. And so I wondered if, you know, you wanted to invite our listeners to. Where they can go to learn more about, you know, she'll learn more about your work, learn more about your coaching and some of the different tools, services that you offer, because I'm sure that they would love to, to learn more.

And we will for sure. Have you back on, because I do, I do think all of them, what we did was just, we just, we just revealed the

Natalie: We just pulled the covers back - we need to get around here. Yeah.

Monica: Get all naked now. We'll now we'll go deep. No pun intended. So yeah.

Natalie: Yeah. I mean to reach out, you know, I have a website that they can go to. It's just my name. That'll EG guest, stella.com. I have a little Instagram page where I just kind of post things. I teach mindfulness and meditation, Cypress little videos, and just sort of feeling my way into social media.

Definitely. But the best way is probably to go to my website. Yeah. And there's a contact form there. And yeah, I would say in terms of the work that I do with coaching, it really integrates, you know, my background, I'm a trained psychotherapist and getting my hours toward licensure now and training in somatic experiencing.

So I do a lot of work around embodiment and the nervous system. I think, you know, I really believe that the foundation for any of this work is to create safety in our own bodies and our own hearts. And so it's no work that is trauma informed, I would say. And we create the space for, for women, for people to be able to uncover.

What has been, you know, what has been tucked away or forgotten along the way. And we, yeah, we make, we make space to, to bring it out, to invite it out and just see how it wants to express itself

in the world. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And it's a lot of fun.

Monica: I bet it is.

Natalie: It's hard and wonderful and all those things at the same time.

Monica: Yeah, yeah. To hard and wonderful and gritty and liberating and all that. Yeah. Yeah. Sign me up. Nat so good. And for our listeners, you know, I'll be sure to put Natalie's link so you can follow her. And until next time. More to be revealed

Natalie: Yeah, honor. Likewise,

Monica: Natalie, it's been so wonderful to have you, and I love you. I love your work in the world. I love your spirit. Thank you. Yeah, you are a nectar. You are the nectar. Thank you.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes.

We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.