94_Amy McPhie Allebest 
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Amy: Yeah, I agree. And I think that, I mean, nature versus nurture is still like, we just don't know because, you know, Mary Wollstonecraft said it and John Stuart Mill said it, and I think it's still true. Like, we don't actually know the true nature of woman because she's always been subjugated and that's still true.

We're still, I mean, even in the most recent, you know, neuroscience books that I'm reading right now for the last episodes of the season, People are still trying to figure out, like, what, what about our different ways of being, you know, in general are really biological versus social, but either way, like you said, I mean that way, I think both are critical to look at history with a very rational point of view and say, here are the facts, here's the legislation.

Here's, you know, the prohibitions on women. Here's what happened. That's really important for both men and women. And then the feeling aspect of saying, you know, listen to this person's pain and, and be willing to sit with it.

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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project, and what gets revealed gets healed.

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm with one of my podcast heroes today, heroine today. Amy McPhie Allebest Amy. I have like holding my heart right now because her work is so critically important to all of the human family. Amy is the host of the podcast Breaking Down Patriarchy an essential text book club, the podcast examines patriarchy and its critiques through reading and discussing seminal feminist texts with the goal of understanding and dismantling sexist systems. She does. So with courage, tenderness and love. Amy is a writer, a teacher, a mother of four, and an almost graduate of Stanford's master's of liberal arts program.

She loves trail running with her husband and laughing with her kids. Just before we start, I want to say that I have been listening to this podcast now for several months. And she's just about to wrap up the first season, which when it finishes, it'll be 65 episodes and. The reason I think this work is so critical and important is because we are not taught her story through school.

And yet there's a vast repository of history. There's a vast repository of solutions, wisdom. And ideas and comfort. That's actually already available to us through the books that have been written, the speeches, the legislation that women and some men have done that all are, you know, really about this critical work in deconstructing patriarchy over the course of hundreds of years.

But we don't hear about that. Again, that's by design, but Amy McPhie Allebest is changing all of that. She's basically bringing these essential texts to podcast discussions, and basically giving women and men an opportunity to basically like experience their own masters in feminist studies. So. There's so much wisdom to be gained through listening to this podcast series.

And there's so much more to be revealed, but basically just know this for those of you out there that have been agitated felt alone in your struggle or feeling like we're wasting time reinventing the wheel. Amy is really changing all of that. She's bringing together. Like I said, this central repository of just essential episodes that are essential for our whole human family to start listening to that are really all about revealing the history that has been hidden in plain sight.

So without further ado, I will welcome Amy McPhie Allebest. And here we go. Hey Amy! 

Amy: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me really happy to be here. 

Monica: It's just been like, honestly, I remember reaching out just from a pure gut instinct and wanting to write to you. And of course you responded to my email and something in me knew you would, because it's just listening to you.

You're such a kind hearted, warm, genuine person. And I'm sure everybody who listens to feels the same way, but that's just comes across loud and clear. 

Amy: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad. Well, it's been, yeah, it was a pleasure to correspond with you and email. Yeah. That's been great to get to know you. 

Monica: So I wanted to start actually right there, which is, this is so complicated.

It's so simple. And yet it's so complex and there's so many layers. And I wonder just, if you could talk to us about what inspired you to do this project? 

Amy: Sure. Yeah. What inspired me to do the projects? I mean, if we could back way up to kind of the. The feminist awakening, but you know, starts kind of a drop at a time and kind of then starts to gather momentum until you can't ignore it anymore.

And that definitely was true for me, but this specific project happens kind of. A point where I was almost done with all of my classwork at Stanford and that master's program really introduced me and the master's program gave me an opportunity to really analyze social systems and literature and historical phenomenon.

And I found myself always not on purpose, but just always drawn to. Asking questions about what the women were doing, or what were the social dynamics that were oppressing either women or racial minorities or, you know, what, what are the social systems at play? And by the end, But at the end of my coursework, I had started to see, I think patriarchy more clearly, but because there wasn't really a women's studies element formally in the program.

I ended up with just so many more questions and I just thought I've got to figure this out. This has been causing me personal pain and just intellectual. Agitation my whole adult life. And so I started looking at PhD programs to study women's studies, formally and long story short. I couldn't find the right women's studies program.

And so I decided to just self-educate. And so, I mean, I had been Googling books trying to find books about this just because it was, it bothered me so much for years. And I didn't know, I was, I looked for patriarchy podcasts. I looked for patriarchy courses on the great courses or Coursera or whatever, I can find anything.

And so just a little at a time, I just started to, I had found the Creation of Patriarchy by Gerda Lerner a couple of years before just by Googling it, like literally creation, patriarchy book or something and read it twice. And then. Yeah. I just started finding more even just through like books you might like on Amazon or whatever, just honestly, like when we talk about reinventing the wheel, I was just creating it from scratch because I couldn't find anything.

So yeah. I bought myself about 30 books and then talks with a friend, my friend, Malia, who did the first podcast episode on the Chalice and the Blade. And I said, you know, as long as I'm doing all of this research and all of this work, reading these books really thoroughly and taking notes, There are so many people I've talked to throughout my life that have the same questions, the same struggles.

And I feel like I should share it as long as I'm going to the work of doing all of this. And should I write about it? Like, should I publish on medium? And she said, no, do a podcast. You'll reach more people that way. And I was, that was really not on my radar, but she kind of held my hand and helped me jump off the cliff and help me just kind of just.

And so that's how it got started. And then it expanded beyond those 30 books, but we just put together a chronological timeline. And I just said, I I've got to learn this stuff. It's too important. And so as long as I'm learning it, I will talk into a microphone so other people can learn it along with me.

Monica: Well, it's such a great medium. It really is. I was thinking about the quote, dangerous women read that it's now it's kind of like dangerous women. Listen to Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast. Because danger, meaning that back to this reinventing the wheel, it's like what's possible when we don't have to reinvent the wheel again.

Right. And I think there's something about centralizing this information in a chronological way. That just makes so much sense. I always think about that idea of like, you can't build an empire on quicksand and of course what we're all experiencing right now in the. I feel like this breaking down exactly.

Of like all of these outdated systems that are no longer serving. I forget which guests you had on that talked about. It was a recent, it was one of the more recent episodes that talked about the patriarchy, like a brick house. And that idea of rebuilding from a strong foundation, but rebuilding in such a way that everyone is welcome, right.

That the actual materials that we're building from come with, uh, Understanding of what hasn't served and how we can build once we actually experience, you know, this breaking down process. So 50 episodes in Amy, I mean, you're really at the end of your first season 

Amy: Getting there yeah, it'll be 65 episodes total.

Monica: Okay.

Amy: So yes. We're. Yeah, but we're getting there. Yep. 

Monica: And so my question is, and for our listeners, There's just so much here. I want to talk a little bit about my personal experience because I think I had It was Women's, Seeking Wholeness podcast, where I had first heard about your work.

And I immediately, you know, sought out subscribed and started listening. And I actually had to stop and pause because I was talking about agitated and even listening to some of the discussions that you were having. I think where I had to take a pause was after. The maybe the third or fourth episode where it was talking about the creation of patriarchy and there was some chest, so much illumination around how the structure of patriarchy potentially came to be.

And then what some of the early practices were and how women were treated. And I literally had a tremendous amount of grief. Rage. I mean, these are so many emotions that come up as you're really listening to the discussion on the texts that you guys really dissect that comes up into the conversation, right.

Where you'll often emote or, you know, have a moment where you just have to pause and cry for a minute. And then other women who you've been talking to who are also brilliant have said, like, this is just, you know, enrages me. So there's a lot of, I always talk about on my podcast, this idea of we have to reveal it.

We have to feel it in order to heal it. And as women are listening, I'm just wondering kind of what some of the feedback is. 

Amy: Yeah. I mean, especially those early episodes, like you said, Reading some of the stuff, one of the things that's the hardest about it is, I mean, for example, our most recent episode last week, I interviewed a mother and daughter that are very, very dear to me and they talk about the violence that they've encountered in their own lives.

And you've, you can find that and that's heartbreaking and enraging to see that, that, I mean, that's always happened throughout history that you can. Anecdotes or personal experiences where this is happening. What's really hard about those first episodes. Is it? It's not like it can't be explained a way by saying, well, that's one bad man that did that to that woman.

It's in the law. It's encoded in the law that a man can. I think there was one in the middle of Syrian law, where if a woman speaks out against a man, then her mouth will be crushed with a brick or men in antiquity men have the right to leave. Their offspring, their infants out to the elements to die. But a woman, if she, for whatever reason needed to abort her pregnancy, then she would be killed.

So just realizing that like maybe. Owned women's bodies and thought of their offspring as their property. That those things, again, it wasn't just one bad person that beat his wife or something. This was the law of the land. And this is like, you talked about, you know, the foundations and the structures.

These are the foundations of civilization. These are the laws that, you know, laws after that were built upon. And so for us to look around and say like, Wait a second. How did these buildings all get built along this grid? This city plan, will you go back and back and back and back and you read these laws and you're like, oh, that's where that comes from.

Having the conversations, new iterations, but have the same laws that go back thousands of years. And I think that's partly why it's upsetting is because you realize, again, it's not just men at their worst, not just, you know, one off bad men, it was part of what they thought civilization should be. And it's really upsetting.

And I guess your question was how do other women react to that? And what's the feedback. Yeah. People have to put the book down though. My friend, Megan, who did the Mary Wollstonecraft episodes. She also read the Creation of Patriarchy along with me before the podcast. And I kind of I'd text her and be like, how's it coming?

And she's like, I can't, I can't do it I have to wait. And then she'd pick it back up a couple of weeks, you know, just stop and grieve, like you said. And. Feel the feelings and then like you said, and then you can heal and there's this power that comes from not being afraid anymore. And knowing, being able to say, no, I know what happened and I know why, and I know how.

It's really, really empowering, but it's a really hard journey. And I think a lot of people have had that experience as they've read these books I did, and people I've talked to have to. Yeah. 

Monica: Well, and you know, it occurs to me as you're speaking about this, that that becomes the culmination of your work is that so many women can now listen and not feel alone in it.

Right. And that there is an R there's so much empowerment to actually. Looking underneath the hood. So to speak where we start to understand the inner workings of how this all got created so that we can be a part of uncreative. Yeah. So one of the other things that I found fascinating was that midway through this series, you actually did a bonus session with your husband, Eric.

And what you focused on were the frequently asked questions from men. And I just wondered if you can give a little bit of background and context, maybe just Amy, more on. What comes up for people as they're listening and the fact that you do have women listeners and men listeners, and that you tend to get a lot of feedback from both, correct?

Amy: Yeah, especially at first. I did. And I sought that feedback too, because one of my main. One of the things that I've tried to focus on is that this is important for everybody to know, to know this history, to know how it came to be the way it is. And then moving forward, I think this is a project for the whole human family.

And so we need men. No. I mean, honestly, partly because men are the ones who are still in power, but there just, isn't a way to effect change in institutions that are male centric and male led there. Isn't a way if you don't have male men allies in those rooms, that's one reason. And also just because I think.

Because patriarchy harms everybody, patriarchy harms boys and men too. And so I've just, and the other thing is I just really love men. I really love all human beings. And specifically I love my husband, my son, my brother, my dad. I have so many wonderful men in my life. So for all of those reasons, I have not wanted this to be a male bashing man bashing product.

I do love men and, and it harms them too. So anyway, so for that reason, I really sought the feedback and, and I, I sent out a, a big email to, you know, my husband's best friends and my men friends and said, how is this landing for you? How are you feeling when you're listening to this? What are, what are the questions that are coming up for you?

And I was surprised to be honest, These are like really, really smart men and a lot of them quite, you know, politically liberal and open-minded, and, and pretty woke dudes. And like a lot of them were really defensive. I'm going to be honest. It's very hard for them to listen to. The historical, you know, to the stories where the men really are the bad guys.

And it's not all men who are the bad guys, but they, it just really gets their defensive up. Like I'm not like that. I would never do that. That's one challenge. And then honestly, confronting it's more engrained than I thought it would be that sense of. Privilege and entitlement. And I use that term really cautiously because I know even that just gets people feeling defensive, but it's true.

Some of them, I was very surprised by men coming back and saying like, well, patriarchy has done so much good in the world or. I feel like, you know, men and women are different and then what's implied in that is, and men are designed to lead women like from people. I didn't expect to hear that from. And so that was pretty rough for me.

And I just thought, man, if I, if I'm going to do this work of trying to help these men come along with me, and that was the thing is they were willing and they were having the conversations with. And so I thought, yeah, I'm just going to really, I want to, and I do have the energy for it to try to bring them along with me and get them to see ways of thinking that aren't correct and are a little off.

And so. Yeah. I wanted to know what their questions were and to see if there was a way that I could address those questions in a way that they could hear. Honestly, there are a lot of barriers in their ability to be able to hear it, which I understand that's the way they were indoctrinated. It's deep, deep, deep.

Monica: Yeah. In fact, I remember, I don't know if it was the same episode, but I remember Eric at some point coming back and talking about how hard it was. Right. And that it, I seem to remember an episode where he actually. Could witness's own defenses coming up. And then he actually had to kind of put a practice in place to kind of just be with it, you know, without kind of.

Taking it. So, so personally, but also I think what he pointed to was also just certain ways women and men are just built differently, which has been interesting because I have a couple of friends whose husbands might be listening right in the car. And they're both listening to the, in the car. And I have one friend who was like, my husband just kept saying, get to the point, get to the point.

And she's like, that's so interesting. Like they're getting to the point. But there's layers. There's nuances, there's feelings that come up, like give them a moment. Right. So there was just these, there's just these also fundamental ways. I think again, I'm not sure if it's biological or if it's social ways that we've kind of been programmed to also consume information, digest information, metabolize these concepts, right.

It's not. And you know, when I think about the divine feminine, you know, as a, as an energy or as like a something that's getting revealed in this space, even here in this moment, it's these, it is the more, the nuanced conversation. The emotional intelligence that also comes up in us and gives us access to communicate in a way that's not just relegated to the head that actually starts to bring the heart into these conversations and pulls us in to a container together where we're Ida I in a circle with each other, versus in kind of these hierarchical ways of thinking about. Does that make sense? 

Amy: It does make sense. Yeah, I agree. And I think that, I mean, nature versus nurture is still like, we just don't know because, you know, Mary Wollstonecraft said it and John Stuart Mill said it, and I think it's still true. Like, we don't actually know the true nature of woman because she's always been subjugated and that's still true.

We're still, I mean, even in the most recent, you know, neuroscience books that I'm reading right now for the last episodes of the season, People are still trying to figure out, like, what, what about our different ways of being, you know, in general are really biological versus social, but either way, like you said, I mean that way, I think both are critical to look at history with a very rational point of view and say, here are the facts, here's the legislation.

Here's, you know, the prohibitions on women. Here's what happened. That's really important for both men and women. And then the feeling aspect of saying, you know, listen to this person's pain and, and be willing to sit with it. And, and let that also inform your understanding. And we think of the first one as being more quote, unquote masculine and the second one being more quote, unquote feminine, but all human beings have both and all human beings benefit from cultivating both.

That's right. And so I do want to share one positive thing too. Since you asked about the men and what questions they're asking and those conversations. One of my very best friends, who's a friend of mine and my husband's. We've had these conversations through the years and sometimes they get really tense and emotional on both sides.

I have been so grateful for him because we've maybe hurt each other's feelings along the way, but he always shows up and is willing to talk through this hard stuff with me. And he did finally have this epiphany and I, and I want to share this kind of as emblematic of one of the barriers for men is that at least in my community and my, especially in my faith tradition,Men Are taught to be good men by kind of being defenders of women.

And it's a really beautifully intentioned, very benevolent. It is patriarchal, but it's a, it's an attitude of loving women, caring for women and seeing the divine and women as being caretakers, which is all I think, you know, there's a lot of beauty in that, but then it does. Then can so easily turned to be condescending and limiting for women and he just couldn't see it and couldn't see it.

And finally, he wrote this email to his mom and all of his sisters and said, you know, I've been sitting with this idea and really resisting it because it was my definition of being a good man was. Kind of defend and protect and provide, and also preside over women, but in a, in a righteous good way. And he said, I've realized maybe that's not what you wanted all along.

And maybe you didn't want me to put you on a pedestal. You just wanted to be an equal with me. And I didn't realize, and the humility and their strength that, that showed for that man after however many, you know, decades of his life. To be willing to deconstruct something that to him, it wasn't bad. It was actually his way of being a good person.

I was moved to tears when I read that and I, again, I thought it took so much courage and strength for him to deconstruct. To be willing to confront that because I think that is what stops a lot of men from wanting to go there is because they believe that's what they've always been trained to do. And that's what being a good person means.

And so to be told at this point in their life, like, no, that's not what we wanted hurts, actually. It's not that they just want to maintain power. A lot of times it's just, they think like, wait, what all of this that I was doing that I thought you wanted. And I thought God wanted me to do. You're telling me that's not what I'm supposed to do.

I can understand. I can really sympathize with how hard that would be. So I wanted to mention that and as a shout out to my very brave friend, that's happening too. So 

Monica: Absolutely well, and here's to the rigor of these conversations that really, I mean, kudos to both of you, because I think, you know, in my life, my, I would say it's really only been in the last eight years that one of.

Biggest healing lessons that I've ever learned is to stay in the discomfort and to pause, to give, give that gift or grace to each other of space like that, that we can recover. We can come back to this conversation. It doesn't, you know, we don't have to like give up, put it away, shut the lid, you know?

It's cause it can get so painful, but if we're willing to just stay and trust, trust ourselves and trust each other, that we've got this, even when, sometimes we don't that we can make it across that bridge to each other. And I think Amy, that, that is such a Testament to your work. And the conversations that it's creating is that I do look at we're all living inside of a conversation.

It's just revealing the conversation that we're having. That's kind of hidden below the surface and to really shed light on that. And just like the system of the patriarchy realize that it's kind of hiding in plain sight and that I want to go back to something you said, because. You talked about that deconstruction of this good man, right?

That he's, he's just always held that upright integrity of like living as that good man as we do as good women. And there's also kind of that element that gets brought in. And also what God wanted. And so there's a way that religion and, and, you know, I know that you talk about this quite a bit, but there's a way that so much of this dominance has been sanctioned by religion.

And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about how that's, how that's continued to evolve as a conversation for you and in your work. 

Amy: Sure. Yeah. That's a big one. I would say. One recent way that it's been evolving has been, you know, early on. There's an example of this early on in the podcast project with the Letters on the Equality of the, of the Sexist by Sarah Grimke, that was written in the mid 19th century.

And that's, I think the first example in the podcast of a woman who stays devout, she happens to be Christian and she stays devout Christian through her entire life, but she does a feminist reading of the scriptural passages. She refuses to give up. Her faith, because it means so much to her and her faith really is what was driving her to be an ardent abolitionist and to fight against slavery and then to fight for women's rights.

Again, she, her motivation came to her. She felt through God and through her Christian faith. And then that's, that's evidenced again in another book that we just covered a couple of weeks ago, that's in the 20th century and it's called women's spirit rises. And it's a feminist theologian reader. And so it's a bunch of different episodes or a bunch of different essays written by feminist theologians in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

And then there's another volume that has more indigenous traditions. And for people who. R of devout faith. This is a really, really hard deconstruction process. And I'm, I'm one of those people. And I think that's probably the first time of many that I cried in the podcast project. I'm a crier and I'm not afraid to, to show what I'm really feeling as you know, I laugh a lot too, but I do cry and it's because it's so tender.

It's, it's the deepest part of our self-concept. Who we are in this universe and how we connect to whatever created us. And it's, it's it, that can be very difficult. And I it's really important to me that that people feel supported in a way forward in it. And for some people that does mean a deconstruction of their faith completely and.

That's the way that feels right to them. And then for some people I know that they, you know, to grapple with and think like, oh, the, the scriptures that I grew up believing were literally true. It turns out I just found out there's, you know, different authorship than I thought it's devastating, but there is a way forward.

And so some of these books are a lifeline for people to be able to, to hang on to their relationship with. God as they understand it. And so I would really recommend to listeners if, if they find themselves in that position of like the grief that comes with, oh no, this isn't what I thought. There's a way.

And they're, they're, you know, they're brilliant theologians in every religious tradition who say, no, I'm not. You know, my Jewish tradition or my Catholic tradition, I'm going to reread the scripture or I'm going to create a new way of understanding this from a feminist women centered position. So those are great books that really help in that process.

Monica: I love what you're pointing to because it's true, right? There's there's like this always this rhythm or this, you know, Just kind of universal law, right? The way that we, sometimes we have to have that death and rebirth, and that could mean a death in the way we think about things that, and then the deconstruction and then a reconstruction, there's just always these themes, these cycles.

And I think we're going through one as a human collective right now. Again, I know that there've been times in our history, not in my lifetime, that I've felt this level of deconstruction happening in the world. But I look at again, the discomfort. This is not a comfortable time in any way, shape or form.

In fact, you know, I feel like every time we'd get our sea legs, we're again, here comes another story. and it's been this incredible opportunity, you know, and I choose that word because depending on the day, I just want to go and put the covers up over my head. But I love how earlier you were pointing to, like, I have the energy to do this in this moment and that it gets to happen at your pace.

I know. Sometimes we can feel that sense of urgency, but there's also so much truth and wisdom to going gentle with ourselves, because this is so tender and this is so important and it's, so I feel like we're all being invited to. Look at our perspectives and to stand in another pair of shoes and look again.

Amy: Absolutely. That's powerful if you don't mind, actually, that's another really important thing that I feel like I've gained from the podcast that just is coming to my mind if that's okay with you. And that is, I feel like on the podcast, one of the, there kind of. Two phases that I've gone through personally, and that I hope listeners have gone through that has to do with what you were just saying about taking the opportunity to, you know, to welcome that shift and welcome that storm of like, oh wow.

Things. Aren't what I thought they were. This is hard. And I think the first phase for me was. Seeing the history and feeling so validated and feeling like, oh, I'm not alone. There's so many people who have thought of this before and felt this before, and then developed really brilliant critiques and solutions before.

And I saw myself represented in there. And getting through, I mean, even all the way through mid 20th century with Betty, Friedan and the Feminine Mystique and going, oh, where was this? In my twenties and my early thirties and, and feeling so seen finally. And then as I moved into later, like the 1970s in the second wave of feminism and when more women of color started to participate in the conversation, And then also later when we started, you know, when we got to the books where gay women and, and bisexual and trans women were, were writing, and then suddenly.

I was reading with a different purpose. I had gained a lot of, you know, the empathy and the validation that I needed. Like, you're not crazy. There's nothing wrong with you. Your life experiences valid and, and this pain is real. And here's why. And then I found, found myself in the position where as a white person and a straight person and a person.

Uh, who has never encountered poverty before and all of these ways that I suddenly realized that I was in the position of privilege and power and to read and, and also have conversations. With people, like, I'll just bring up my friend, Rayna. 

Monica: I love Reyna. 

Amy: I love Rayna too. Isn't she wonderful? Yes. So wonderful.

And I thought that, I mean, even we did one episode with her on Sojourner Truth and I was like, what? I didn't know. So my friend Rayna is black and she was across the hall from me, my freshman year of college. And I. I think the last time I saw her in person was at her wedding reception awhile ago, but I thought I knew her really quite well.

And to hear her stories and to realize we were having. Such different experiences 

Monica: While you were in the same school. Yeah. Right across the hall from each other. 

Amy: Yes. And that was huge. And so I feel like with all of the end and an episode, which at the point that we're recording this conversation, Monica hasn't come out yet, but it's about to come out next week, which is on LGBTQ history.

That's one of the most tender and vulnerable episodes that I've recorded because I really. Lay bare my own, my own history and my own prejudices and my, my own mistakes throughout my life, as I've interacted with, I guess, the LGBTQ people in my life and legislation and that whole segment of humanity and.

It's been really humbling. So I would say, I mean, to listeners, it's so important to find yourself in these works and to feel validated. And then what I've seen is that we have to be careful to not make the mistake that so many feminists have made in the past of. Plowing through the door and not realizing that the door slammed behind us and that now we're doing to others

Monica: What was done to us, what was done to us?

Amy: Exactly. And to keep reading and it's going to be hard. Cause we might find ourselves in the same position that I just described with, you know, white men going well, wait, that's not me. I'm not racist. I'm not homophobic. And realizing like, actually we are, and we may have been in the past and we may continue to be, and we need to be humble and really.

Open-hearted and open-minded to see that there are ways that we need to do well lately. 

Monica: I've been using this term, like we're going through the evolutionary eye of the needle. It's like this tight, it's this tight just unforgiving in some ways it feels placed, but we have to remember that it's. That for as uncomfortable as it can be.

It is so expansive on the other side. And I think that's what you're pointing to is as you've gotten through each piece and continued to be with the next big piece, you've come out the other side, having so much more perspective, so much more wisdom, so much more grace, so much more self forgiveness, humility, and also.

What would the word be atonement? There's like a way that I think we also have to face some of the, some of the ways that we have just been ignorant, blind, unaware, selfish, even there's so many times Amy to arrive, even her. Women or yourself talk just about how you've benefited from a system without really realizing the depth of your own privilege.

In certain cases. One of the, I think one of a big game-changing podcast episode for me was with when you dissected Francis spiel, Jeff double jeopardy. Oh my gosh. And so that was to be black and female was that. Was that one with Rina? It was, yeah. And again, like having, having some real. Moments of just realization that we're so like wanting to come out of my own skin, because, because then it, then the questions come, right?

Like, okay. So what now, now that, and without putting all of this pressure on ourselves, I think to jump into action, because that is exactly what you were saying. That that's what those former feminists that's, the mistake we've made in the past is kind of this plowing right through. And I think. I always think about this time as the apocalypse, but not, but not in kind of be a book of revelation, way more in to look at that word as to lift a lifting of the veils, the, to aluminate to actually see something that we hadn't seen before.

That was hidden right here. That to me, right there are these ways. Of interpreting revelation that I think we get to reclaim that word because of course, I go back to my formal training ground, which was, you know, my mom had been a Catholic nun. I believe your upbringing was Mormon and so, you know, I look back at that training ground and again, all of the ways in which I was taught to, to see the world and interpret the world and be in a relationship with the world, not realizing that.

I had the birthright. I had the ability, the freedom, the, but I had to give it to myself to finally get to the point where I was, you know, willing to get outside of my comfort zone and ask myself all of the uncomfortable questions. Well, if it's not. This faith that I've been raised in, then what, and just having all of those uncomfortable, you know, moments of my own deconstruction, which again, in hindsight, where that unbecoming process was the greatest gift I could have given myself.

I wondered Amy, could you tell our audience a little bit more about your Mormon upbringing and just kind of worldview. Just that kind of background 

Amy: Sure. Yeah. I there's so much beauty in it. There's so much goodness in it. I, one of the foundational most fundamental pieces that is in every cell of my body is, and I was a missionary for our church too.

And so I had the experience as a missionary. Of presenting our doctrine to someone who'd never encountered it before. And that was an interesting experience too, because right when it's your native land, if it's your native religion, it's kind of like a native language that you can speak it, but you might not know the grammar, but when you're a missionary, you know how to explain it.

And I really appreciate looking back that the very first thing that you. Somebody when you're a Mormon missionary, is that we are all children of God. And that we take that really literally, um, that we are a family. And so, and I learned it in Spanish. It does make me a little emotional. But then we would teach people the very right off the bat that, because we are all part of a family that makes us all brothers and sisters literal siblings.

And so that informs the way I see the world and every moment of my life, that when I see, you know, people I know and love as well as strangers that I do still, I do regard them as my siblings and that if, uh, if we were to have. You know, you just talked about the veil falling away, right? Like this veil of ignorance.

If we were to see people the way they really are, we would recognize them. And we just have limits on our mind that we, you know, that we don't know them here in this life, but that, you know, after we die or before we were born, we knew them like siblings. I'm super grateful for that. And that, that is. I hope, you know, informs my approach throughout this whole process.

And that's why I say that, you know, this is a deconstruction of patriarchy, but not a deconstruction of men and that I want to be tender and compassionate and assume good intentions and assume the best in all human beings. That we can reach people through love. I got that from my faith, from my faith tradition and then the hard thing, and there are so many other things, honesty, hard work.

Mormons are hard. Workers, Mormons are tend to be nice people, hopefully that has been true of any Mormons you've known. Of course, it's not always true, but we tend to try to treat people kindly and live lives of integrity and mixed up in that is also, I mean, it's, it's a really. Proudly patriarchal institution.

And as, as a person of the Catholic tradition, you can relate to that. I mean, if you look at a picture of the Pope's and Cardinals and bishops and priests, it's similar to the hierarchy of the Mormon church with the prophet and apostles and the elders. It's all men, no women are ordained, and there's also a concept of, you know, headship, even in the home.

In our religion. There's the, there's a, a bit of tricky ambiguity and it causes a lot of pain for women because on the one hand, the male leaders talk about. But the women and, you know, the realm of the women is the home and nurturing children. And we're really discouraged from working outside the home.

But then even in the home, in the, in my faith tradition, men, they say provide and preside over their families. And so they're really, I mean, that's one thing that started to just be a real pain point for me is like, wow, I'm not, I don't even have any realm at all of sovereignty. So those are some of the main elements of the faith tradition.

I come from a lot of beauty and goodness. And then as a woman, you're always presided over by almost any man from the time he's 12 years old, he kind of outranks you and is the leader. So that's hard, really hard. 

Monica: And that's, that's where, again, those gender. Sanctions become really, like you said, painful.

And, um, one of the words you used earlier on was agitate. Right? I always love that word. I love words in general until I don't, because those are some ways that language is so limiting. But you know, when I think about that agitation, right. I often think about, we get what we tolerate and agitation kind of like just agitates us into this place of intolerance.

Amy: Yeah. 

Monica: And I think that that can be such an ally when it comes to some of these deeper conversations that lead us into new territory and with the potential to build new ground and. Develop new stories and narratives. So, you know, I know that we're running up on time and I'm so like, ah, there's so many other things I want to ask you, Amy, and this has been such a delight already, so we're going to have to ask you back, but I would love to just, um, point back to that agitation, maybe.

Just anything you want to say about where that's led you, um, how that's led you to kind of reinterpret your faith? Cause it sounds like you're still deeply connected to the Mormon faith, and I wondered what you might counsel our listeners or women and men to do to break down, understand. Really deconstruct patriarchy and why it's so important.

Amy: Sure. One thing that comes to mind is the episode that we did on the gospel of Mary Magdalene. Mm. And. That is a, it's an apocryphal text that didn't make it into the Canon into the Bible, but that's so a way of reinterpreting religion that is, I think really helpful for a lot of women have a lot of Christian faiths because she talks about being more fully human and that that's the goal.

And I think. At, she also talks about that there, or I guess in the gospel of Mary Magdalene, the figure of Christ talks about being more fully human and, and talks about what we interpret as sin, for example, as being just missing the mark. And so there's the implication of just trying again and allowing ourselves to just learn and grow day by day and be, be more fully.

Ourselves and that contrasts with, you know, the hierarchical, patriarchal structure of what the Christian turned church in, all of its denominations turned out to be, which is kind of feeling like you're a cog in the wheel or that you're kind of a foot soldier taking your marching orders from the people who are above you.

And I think. In terms of, you know, that agitation that you feel as a person who feels a connection to the divine and, and maybe feels still a connection to your ancestors in your faith tradition and your family and your community, and a lot of the teachings of, of your faith, no matter what that is, but then feeling that agitation of maybe there are elements of that religion that are.

Unjust and incorrect. And that w we talked to Monica earlier, before this episode started about fault lines and feeling like we're straddling over a fault line with one foot on one tectonic plate and the other foot and the other tectonic plate, or feeling like we're going to get split in half. And I think a lot of times, I mean, that's, that's the struggle of the ages.

That's the struggle that these authors, these philosophers, these scientists, these artists have felt inside of them. And that's often the way humanity moves forward is by saying, you know, I'm going to embrace that struggle. I'm going to embrace the agitation. I'm going to figure. If there's something that I can salvage from this side, I'm not going to entirely throw everything out on this other side.

I'm going to keep what's good here, but also be willing to move in this other direction that I was taught. Don't go over there. It turns out actually justice and goodness is on that other side and being willing to wrestle with those difficult, difficult things. With an internal, personal connection to self, to earth, to the divine, whatever that means to you.

And that sense of sovereignty that again, instead of turning to like, well, who's the commanding officer above me and they'll just tell me what to think and what to do to say I, as, especially, this is a radical shift for a woman. From these traditions to say, I, as a woman, trust myself, I, and, and that might conflict with my priest.

And I'm going to have to just trust that I'm acting in, uh, in integrity and I'm acting in good faith and I'm, I have to be true to my conscience and what feels just and true to me. And, and that shift doesn't mean you have. To give up God. And it doesn't mean you have to give up the goodness that's in your religious tradition, but shifting that center to one's own heart and mind.

Is I think one of my biggest takeaways and, and that has been modeled for me again, in these authors, in these thinkers. And then they also, so, so emotionally there's this like connection of like, oh, they did it. I can do it too. I feel comforted. And then there's also these like very philosophically complicated.

Complicated, but really, but also clear like, oh, that's, that's, what's going on. And here is the answer to that. So again, the heart and the head and the mind seeing a way forward. 

Monica: Yeah. It's literally like, you can't just see it with. There's this heart piece, you know, that it has just become critical in terms of reinvisioning re-imagining how we move forward.

So again, Amy, I just want to thank you for it's occurring to me, how courageous you are and. Just holding these conversations and creating space for so many people to have these difficult conversations. I hope you realize what a gift you've been and I'll tell you what a gift you've been to me. You've been an incredible gift and I'm just in awe.

So keep going. And as my last question to you, yeah, like what's, what's with season two, like where do you have a theme? 

Amy: We do. Yes. Thank you. And thank you for those kind words, Monica. That means the world to me. And I've listened to episodes of your podcast as well, and think you're doing incredible work in the world too.

So it's an honor to be in the arena together yesterday. So thank you. Yes. For season two, we're it's going to end up being kind of like a season one, A and one B kind of where season two, rather than focusing on. Essential texts and having discussions like a book club, it will be a series of audio essays.

Just address patriarchy. Some of them will be, you know, a story from a person's childhood. And I overheard this conversation between my parents and it, you know, formed my view of what, you know, the relationship between the sexism. Some are, you know, experts in their field. One of my professors at Stanford is going to share her research about rape as a weapon of war in Bosnia and Serbia in the 1990s.

And that'll be more than. Uh, a lecture, but always from a personal point of view. So I'll even say to listeners we're accepting applications. Actually, if you have a story to share about how patriarchy has played out in your life, in your field of research or just you as a person, we welcome all voices.

The more diverse, the better you can email me at breakingdownpatriarchy@gmail.com. So season two will be. Stories, patriarchy stories. And then for season three and subsequent seasons, then we'll start the whole book club up again, but in a different region of the world. And we haven't decided where we'll go next.

But season one was mostly. A little bit of Europe and the United States, the chronological timeline through my country of origin or the country that I live in. And so next we'll go somewhere else and understand how patriarchy evolved in Latin America, for example, or in the middle east. And we intend to have representative.

Chronological projects in various regions of the globe. So we've got a lot of work yet to do, to get to the bottom of this and understand it everywhere. But that's, what's coming next.

Monica: I mean, I know I'm like kind of sitting over here, like, did you ever imagine that it was going to start like revealing all of these other conversations, right? Like that just occurs to me is first of all, brilliant, yay for the storytelling piece, because I think again, as women start telling their stories with full permission, as we've all started to kind of understand this. As a global conversation, there's been so many great stories that have come out and that when another woman can hear somebody else's story and relate to it, it just, it opens up so much.

You know, I'm thinking of course immediately about Afghanistan, right. And what we're witnessing right now. So there's just so many other ways, again, to step into another pair of shoes and to have this conversation through a different lens. So I'm just yay for me. Cause I can't wait to continue to follow a lot.

And for our listeners, I'll be sure to put these links and also the submission so that you can, if you're listening and feel inspired, to want to submit an essay to breaking down patriarchy, Amy will be taking those submissions. So I'll put that in the show notes. And until next time more to be revealed,

We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift subscribed to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.