Episode Title: She Who Hunts: Artemis: The Goddess Who Changed The World Host(s): Monica Guest(s): Carla ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Monica (Host) | 00:00:02 --> 00:00:23 Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a Revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Monica (Host) | 00:00:27 --> 00:01:53 Hello, dear listener. Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. Today I'm with Dr. Carla UNESCO, who is a Romanian refugee who escaped the communist regime with her family when she was ten years old. She's also an adrenaline junkie, yes, an animal lover and a natural born storyteller. She loves to ride motorcycles really fast and research through archival documents very carefully. Carla's research centers on the influential nature of Artemis, both in the Greek world and in Euphesis. Her work provides evidence which suggests that Artemis is the most prevalent and influential goddess of the Mediterranean. As one of the leading experts in the worship and ritual of Artemis, dr. Yonescu spends much of her time teaching in the field of ancient history and women's studies and applying for grants to support her research travels. In the summers, she scavenges new locations in cities worldwide, digging through the remains of gravesites, ruins and abandoned buildings, trying to uncover the long lost mystery that is Artemis, the great mother. Welcome, Carla. Carla (Guest) | 00:01:53 --> 00:01:57 Thank you. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for having me. Monica (Host) | 00:01:58 --> 00:02:44 Great to have you. And of course, I am such a fan of Artemis ever since I discovered, I would say discovering mythology, but looking at it from a whole new lens in terms of reclaiming our stories as women and Artemis being a big part of that. I'm just really excited to dive in with you because, as my listeners know, I've done a past episode on Artemis, but it was through a very specific lens and I feel like this is she's she's so multifaceted. So this is going to be such a great conversation because we kind of all get to say, like, who is Artemis to you? And that's where I actually want to start with my first question. Carla (Guest) | 00:02:44 --> 00:03:46 Who is Artemis to me? Yeah, that's a big question. Let's dive in. So I think she has two phases for me. The very first one being an object of study. And so the first one, I think, is more one dimensional in the sense that I found her fascinating and interesting. And then as I began my research, I realized that there wasn't a lot of research done on this goddess. And so, I don't know, I like to think of it as kismet. I like to think of it as meant to be, because when I was studying a topic for my PhD for your PhD, you have to do something that's very unique and not very much studied. And it's something your thesis has to be something that has never really been done before. And so that was really the intention with which I began looking for what should I do? And she popped up. So I like to think of that as being meant to be in the sense of like, I was looking for, what should I do? And she was like me. I'm right here. Monica (Host) | 00:03:46 --> 00:03:47 Right? Carla (Guest) | 00:03:48 --> 00:04:06 And then once I began diving into that research, I realized, wow, this is really fascinating, goddess. And that is when she started showing up for me more, where I would bump into her. When you're looking at something and then it shows up everywhere. Monica (Host) | 00:04:06 --> 00:04:06 Yes. Carla (Guest) | 00:00:00 --> 00:00:00 You. Carla (Guest) | 00:04:07 --> 00:05:43 So then she began to show up everywhere. And I became more and more committed to the project. The calling. I call it calling now, but originally, I called it a project of creating awareness about her, of changing the story that early classicists had wrote about her. I became more and more determined. I don't know. It was like solving a mystery in a detective novel. Right. The more I uncovered, the more beauty there was, the more complexity there was, the more I was like, no, her story has to be told. And then once I finished the research, I guess as I was going through the research, an intimacy developed, a call to a spirituality developed. And once I finished the research and I was more free, because when you're doing the research, you've got supervisors, you've got all this committee, everybody's commenting on what you should put in, what you should take out, whatever. Once I was done and I was free to really express everything I learned about her without it, even the stuff that isn't in the dissertation, I began to think of her more like a spiritual guide, a collaborator. Now I see her fully as a collaborator, a partner in, again, the expression of her story, the connecting to other women. But I think now I am allowing her more space in my life, not just in a thinking space, but in a feeling space, in a heart space. And so now we're in a full blown romance. Monica (Host) | 00:05:44 --> 00:05:45 I love that. Carla (Guest) | 00:05:45 --> 00:06:35 Now I am devoted. So where I was determined, now I feel devoted, and I feel favored, in a sense. Like, sometimes I'm like, is this the story that I still need to tell? And something will come up that will be like, yes. Story is not even done yet. You're just scratching the circle. And so now I would say over the last year, which is quite late, the relationship has become spiritual, energetic, vibrational, all of those words. Yeah. And I am fearless in speaking of it from that perspective. Now, where I think while I was an undergrad not an undergrad, a grad student or a PhD student, I was more fearful of speaking of it that way. Right? Monica (Host) | 00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 Yeah. Tell me more about the fear. Carla (Guest) | 00:06:38 --> 00:06:50 The fear was to not be taken seriously. The fear in academia is that, oh, you're one of those goddess worshippers. Which I am, by the way, unapologetic now. Monica (Host) | 00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 Yeah. Where before you might have been like, is this okay. Carla (Guest) | 00:06:54 --> 00:07:19 Absolutely. Yeah. But I would say that the academic world and I don't want to speak for all of it, but a majority of it, especially around goddesses, tends to be about 50 years behind what women need in their lives, let's say, or research that benefits women in their lives. In fact, I don't know that it even considers the benefit of women at all. Monica (Host) | 00:07:20 --> 00:07:29 Really? Truly? Like, never truer words were spoken in terms of wondering about that. Yes. Thank you for saying that. Yes. Carla (Guest) | 00:07:29 --> 00:09:05 I don't think it serves us. And, for example, this weekend, I was in New York City, and I was at a conference which dealt with many things, but one of them was Artemis and a new interpretation of a statue that may be Artemis. And this scholar who is her name is Orika Brickman. She's German. She has done decades of work, and yet, even to this day, the male classicists are like, I mean, really? But have you considered this? So there is always a dismissal of what had it been. I like to think that had it been a man talking about Apollo, that would have already been considered in the academic circles and papers would be about it everywhere. But because it's a woman working with a goddess that maybe people are not as interested in, and we had this conversation, what is it about Artemis that men are not interested in? And so I said, there's two goddesses that men are interested. Classicists. But even men aphrodite and Athena. These are the two. Aphrodite is all about sex, and she's always naked and blah, blah, blah. And Athena is very much an androgynous figure war figure, wisdom, rationality, et cetera. But if you think about so they have interest in those two goddesses. Artemis, I call her a woman's goddess because she only cares about women sometimes. The Greeks writer is caring about her brother Apollo, but I doubt it. She is a woman's goddess. And so the interest comes from us up rather than from top down. Does that make sense? Monica (Host) | 00:09:05 --> 00:09:06 Yeah. Carla (Guest) | 00:09:06 --> 00:10:15 And Artemis defends women sometimes. She's a bit aggressive. Artemis is a fierce goddess. She needs nothing from men. So she does not pique the interest of male researchers because they're not interested in those issues. She does, interestingly, pique the interest of not just female academics, but many thousands, many women, maybe all women. I don't know. And that's what I found out when I stepped outside of that box and I started talking about her publicly. I went on social media. I started building my social media, started talking about her more, did the podcast, this kind of stuff. Women in droves were just, like, thirsty for this discussion. Right. And that really tells me that I am on the right path, that this is the right path, rather than I mean, I still do the research because I love research, and I'm grounded in that kind of historical research and primary source research. But who I write for now and where I present my research now is a much different group. Monica (Host) | 00:10:15 --> 00:10:41 So I want to get curious about the thirst. What is it about Artemis that well, I guess the first question is, what are you seeing women thirsty for? And the second question is, does Artemis satisfy or quench that thirst for women? Carla (Guest) | 00:10:42 --> 00:13:31 That was a good question. So the very first thing that most women say to me is, I have always loved Artemis. I'm drawn to Artemis. I've always thought about her, et cetera. It is unclear, actually, what draws them. I would like to say there's something about the wilderness. There's something about the forest aspect. There's something about the animals, the environment. Those are things that sort of come up. There's something about her fierceness. I've had a few women who have approached me and said, I really wanted to lean on that fierceness. I needed a figure that was unapologetically fierce. I think, for me, that's what it is. For me, the lean on her is her being unapologetic. And it complements like, my personality is a lot more put others first. And that's probably many, many women. And she gives the strength I'm not sure if that's the right word or inspires the strength to be unapologetic. To think of that as normal in the sense that in the ancient world, there were figures of women that were unapologetic, and therefore that normalizes, that type of behavior. She also has a lot of rage and anger. So when she's angry, she's loud. And I don't mean screaming loud. I mean she just kills people or punishes people. Again, unapologetically. No remorse. No oh, sorry. Action. I turned you into a stag and your dogs ate you. Oh, well, too bad. And so I think that that is also unique. Now, other goddesses like Aphrodite and Athena, I would say they lean more towards cruelty. So there's like, if Athena is somebody upsets her, like Arachne, she turns her into a spider. There's a joy in that. There's a cruelty there. I always find Athena a bit cruel and aphrodite sometimes and again, attributed to her by men. I have to stick that caveat in there. There's sort of a jealousy cruelty to the stories as well, where Artemis, while fierce and even violent in some ways, doesn't have that level of cruelty. So I think there's something there. There's something unique there that you can relate to the rage, you can relate to being offended, to wanting to speak up, but you do that maybe without that level of cruelty. So it feels familiar, it feels comfortable. I think that's sort of the attraction to her. Also, the running around in the woods with her girlfriends and her dogs. Yeah, I mean, are you kidding? Who hasn't had a fantasy of having a cabin in the woods with a couple of wolves and a lot of other girlfriends? Monica (Host) | 00:13:31 --> 00:13:42 I had a dear friend of mine call me the other day in tears. And she had witnessed this man basically kick his dog. Carla (Guest) | 00:13:43 --> 00:13:44 Oh, my God. Monica (Host) | 00:13:44 --> 00:16:58 Right? So what comes up for me as you're speaking is she was so traumatized by seeing this. But what she kept saying to him is, I see you. I see you. And it was like, in that moment, she was able to say, Stop. What are you doing? And then what came to her was this I see you. I see you. And as she kind of deescalated right from this, I mean, she is such an animal lover and she's just such a loving human being in all ways. But what I'm responding to as I tell you this story and what you're sharing about Artemis is that as she kind of re, kind of grouped and her nervous system settled, she became just clear in her rage. And there is a clarity in rage that is when a boundary has been violated. And especially a boundary that gets violated on behalf of protecting another human being. Whether it be a child, a woman, an animal, somebody who is in the position of being defenseless. That's when I see Artemis kind of becoming this, it's like she does not suffer foolish gladly. But she also is like, hell hath no fury, right? Like a woman who is seeing, witnessing, and would not give any thought to. Kind of whatever it takes to make that right. There's so much, I think, to be learned by us as modern women, what I would call domesticated women from Artemis because we've learned in our domestication to be pretty pleasing, polite and performative. And anytime we go outside of that norm, we become dysregulated in our nervous system. So that was a big deal for her to speak out and say that to this man. It's a big deal for any of us because, first of all, it's so alarming, it's so upsetting. But it also creates that moment where our voice comes out despite and what was there in that moment. And the reason that I'm bringing this up is for all of these women and my listener, whether you're a man or a woman in this moment listening or anyone in between, it's that human response that I think is to actually then fear when we've said something. To fear for our own safety. Because we've said something. Carla (Guest) | 00:16:58 --> 00:17:03 Yes. Especially as women. Especially as women, right? Monica (Host) | 00:17:03 --> 00:17:27 And this is again where I'm trying so hard to be sensitive and not do this gender normative thing. And at the same time, it's clear and kind and helpful when we're very clear about who this impacts. And it is women and it is children and it is animals. Carla (Guest) | 00:17:28 --> 00:18:15 100%. 100%. In the minute that you say that, I think about my husband. My husband's a very vocal person. And if something wrongs him or if someone wrongs him like we even had somebody come to the house to deliver something and the guy was parked wrong and he didn't like it. He just says it. And he says it in a way that is quite intimidating. Like I thought this guy was going to be really scared of my husband. And I think to myself if I did that, I would automatically be like a bitch, total bitch. Or I just wouldn't do it. I would have to be really angry to do something. I would just let it go. Let it go. And so I do think it is performative, it is ingrained in your gender identity or as a privilege. Monica (Host) | 00:18:15 --> 00:18:17 As a gender privilege, that's right. Carla (Guest) | 00:18:19 --> 00:18:27 I don't know that that's good for men either because depending on how loud they may be about their opinion, that may lead into toxicity for them as well. Monica (Host) | 00:18:27 --> 00:18:27 Absolutely. Carla (Guest) | 00:18:28 --> 00:19:50 But I think for us, I see it all the time because he is so strong in his own opinions. That way, everywhere we go, he has this sort of he's not scared of being attacked, he's not scared of being thrown around. He's not scared of being like I was at a hotel, actually, just when I was come back from New York City and this woman was challenging the manager because the manager was making a mess. Long story short, there was another guy, a guy there, white guy, and he started yelling at the woman and actually called her a bitch for being so rude to the manager. And I was standing there, I mean, the woman was talking back to him, but I was standing there beside her and I thought, if you were a man, would he have had the nerve to yell at you and just get involved in a situation that's not his situation and call you a bitch? So when he's like, oh, you're being such a bitch, I was like, Hold on a second. Now we're getting into offensive. So I think we see it so much that we need to talk about it. And I think there's room for anyone who identifies with the masculinity or as men to work on some things as well. But for us, especially around rage and fierceness and speaking, I think we have a lot of work to do. Monica (Host) | 00:19:50 --> 00:19:58 Well, here's where it gets really interesting for me. And I want to get curious about this for you because you and I chose this card. Carla (Guest) | 00:19:58 --> 00:19:59 Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:19:59 --> 00:20:55 And the card was Splendor solas or Sons splendor. And we were kind of doing it in the spirit of having this conversation about Artemis. And the clue there was think about the divine masculine. And so what I'm not getting curious about here is Artemis so balanced actually in both masculine and feminine that she's able she's actually modeling. What does this look like when as women, we are fully embodied in touch with all of our feminine and all of our divine masculine. Because for me, that fierce protector is such a masculine divine masculine trait. Carla (Guest) | 00:20:56 --> 00:21:12 Wow. I think that that's probably one of the best way to put her. I was just thinking, so masculine. Very much so. She embraces it, but not in the androgynous way that Athena does. Monica (Host) | 00:21:12 --> 00:21:12 Right. Carla (Guest) | 00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 Which there's nothing wrong with that. Monica (Host) | 00:21:14 --> 00:21:19 But Athena also kind of is the daughter of patriarchy. I mean, she sprung out of Zeus's head. Carla (Guest) | 00:21:19 --> 00:21:47 Right, exactly. So she's like, purposely androgynous that serves men or serves masculinity. Right. Like, they build her that way or they paint her that way or depict her that way. I absolutely agree. I think that Artemis embraces her masculinity unapologetically, but she is feminine enough that she is the goddess of childbirth, that she is the protector of women, that she writes, she helps her mother give birth. Monica (Host) | 00:21:47 --> 00:21:49 That's what I mean. It's like, oh, my gosh. Carla (Guest) | 00:21:50 --> 00:22:19 I think you're absolutely right. And the only thing that she doesn't really do, even though with Artemis of Ephesus, there are some other possibilities. But in the Greek, Artemis, the one thing she doesn't do is she's not technically a mother. She doesn't give birth. But now I'm wondering if that's I mean, that's not nice to say, but I'm wondering if that's the thing that lets her balance. Because I think when you go into the mother role, you lean heavily in the feminine. Monica (Host) | 00:22:19 --> 00:22:50 Right. And this is what I love about what I'm discovering as we're having this conversation, is as a rites of passage practitioner, I work with archetypes and the mother archetype. It's not about the biological mother. It's about understanding your power as a creator. And so, yes, we can choose as women to create in this way, in this way, in this way, in this way. It doesn't define us. Carla (Guest) | 00:22:51 --> 00:22:51 Right. Monica (Host) | 00:22:52 --> 00:23:23 The fact that we're not a biological mother is of no, that's a choice. We can choose that that can be one aspect of our creative power. And we may choose to use that power and channel it differently. And that's where I think it gets so interesting when we look at Artemis, because I think, what better archetype or goddess than for women who have decided not to go that route? Carla (Guest) | 00:23:25 --> 00:23:46 Absolutely. And it's funny when you say that, because I think of Demeter. Demeter being the only mother other than hera, although that's another complicated but even hera but Demeter being Demeter and persephone that relationship. And Demeter being the goddess of fertility and agriculture. But we always and historically, she's always presented as a mother first. Monica (Host) | 00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 Right. Carla (Guest) | 00:23:47 --> 00:24:48 And so what I think happens is when you become a biological mother, let's say, or whatever, you guardian, you take on the responsibility of a youth or someone else, society automatically shoves you into this category of leaning into the feminine so much. You're supposed to be more nurturing, you're supposed to be more even the depiction of Demeter is much more full figured, always covered. So I think Artemis may represent because she's involved with childbirth and there's mid wife free there, and children are very much a huge part of her worship. She was able, as far as the Greek patriarch mind, she was able to bypass that or get behind that a little bit and really be a modern archetype, let's say, of women who can be mothers without birthing or choosing not to birth. Monica (Host) | 00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 Like they can be nurturers without having. Carla (Guest) | 00:24:51 --> 00:25:39 A child, without being I think that patriarchy shoves even hera like she becomes a nagging domestic wife. Right. And I think a lot of that has to do with the actual birthing. Like there's something that gives patriarchy a type of ownership over your identity. Once you are either birthing or guardianing or whatever you're doing, you're raising a youth or a child, it takes away maybe your freedom to lean into more masculinity. Now, in real life, of course, we know that mothers, whatever they are, can there are very firm, tough mothers. There's single mothers, there's all kinds of mothers doing all kinds of situations. But I think it's for a depiction and mythology and patriarchy, they like to shove everyone in a category. Monica (Host) | 00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 Oh, yeah. Carla (Guest) | 00:25:40 --> 00:25:49 And Artemis, for some reason has escaped that and has managed to be these two things in a really great balance. I think that's absolutely right. Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:25:49 --> 00:26:06 And I think that's where that wisdom comes too. Because she won't be categorized, she will not be limited and that other kind of fierce attraction to her. Carla (Guest) | 00:26:06 --> 00:26:16 Yeah. I mean, they do try to shove her into the corner of like 15 year old young woman. They depict her very young. Right. Monica (Host) | 00:26:16 --> 00:26:20 Like, almost like the maiden. But she's not. Carla (Guest) | 00:26:20 --> 00:26:21 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:26:21 --> 00:26:50 And this is where I think too, we come across, or I know I do in my work with archetypes, and especially as it relates to Maiden and Mother and these two archetypes is that patriarchy wants actually women to stay in Maidenhood. Because when we come into mother, the archetype so it's interesting when we come into mother as Archetype, that's when we come into our fierceness. Carla (Guest) | 00:26:50 --> 00:26:50 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:26:51 --> 00:27:13 And we're no longer afraid. We can no longer be shamed for aging or saging and we are embodying our own enoughness when we're a mother, when we're in that archetype of mother. So I think it's interesting that. Carla (Guest) | 00:27:15 --> 00:27:16 They. Monica (Host) | 00:27:16 --> 00:27:43 Want to keep this particular archetype of Artemis in this kind of maiden. And yet she's exhibiting all of these qualities that belie maybe that youthful kind of and I would even say tomboy. And that's also an unhelpful word. But I think it captures what I'm after here. Carla (Guest) | 00:27:43 --> 00:27:56 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I think one of the reasons that they youthy her or make her into a maiden although traditionally she's not a maiden no. Is because they don't know. What do you do with a woman. Monica (Host) | 00:27:58 --> 00:28:00 That I can't categorize her. Carla (Guest) | 00:28:00 --> 00:29:25 And yet she is the favorite of women. She's the one they call in childbirth. She's the one they call when they're dealing with some type of an issue, whether it be a man or a husband or whatever, a stranger. And so it almost feels like they tried very hard to dismiss her and women themselves because I always call her the women's goddess because in the ancient world, women worshipped Artemis and Demeter. These are the sort of two favorites of women. There's a lot of women rituals around these two. There are for the others as well. I don't want to dismiss them totally, but these two are the favorites. And so, in a way, like, women pull them into their lives by simply practicing those rituals en masse and sharing those rituals. Right. And so it's like, how could you not have when I wrote this book on Artemis, the Greek Artemis, only because I've got five more to do on other sections of the world, I was thinking to myself, how could you, as early classes, not notice how many times she comes up in different rituals? How many times she has temples beside temples? This is why I feel it's purposeful, and this is why I take it so personal sometimes because it's like, there is no way you could have missed this. So this is very purposeful dismissal because she is everywhere in the ancient world. Everywhere. Monica (Host) | 00:29:25 --> 00:30:00 Okay. And just for my listener, help us understand. When you say something like that, how could you not notice how much she comes up in these rituals? Is that you combing through your research and looking at these ancient rituals and just seeing her named? Yes, everywhere. Okay, just for more curiosity's sake, where does such research take place? Is this online? Is this in some, like, I'm picturing the Game of Thrones. What's that place where they kept all the papyrus? Carla (Guest) | 00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 Yeah, I mean, that's the dream. Yeah, the dream is a library like that. Monica (Host) | 00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 Yeah. Carla (Guest) | 00:30:08 --> 00:31:56 So I think it's a combination of those things. For example, Poshanius works. Posenius is an ancient Greek who traveled around and basically did what we all do. He just vlogged it all. And he would go to a place and be like, oh, I'm at this place, and there's a temple here, and there's a statue of Demeter, Artemis and whatever. And the people here tell this story about it. And then you go to another place, and he does that hundreds. He's really like, I would love my goal is to walk in his footsteps. He does this massive travel and massive writing. So he's considered a primary source because he's at the time when things are going on. And his descriptions of the temples, of the names of, for example, Artemis, he does everyone, whoever's in the he just tells the story of each village that he passes by. But I had a stack when I was doing my research. Of all the times he says, Artemis a stack. Okay. So he finds her everywhere. So that's number one. And there's, of course, Homer and Escalus and all these ancient playwrights and ancient philosophers, you can find her there as well. It's not that they deny her. Then there is the actual physical evidence. So finding temples of Artemis and finding artifacts of Artemis at different sites. And the one thing that I found is that all her temples are not labeled, they're not made public. All the findings like Artemis at Ron, for example, is a massive structure and now reaches in nearby villages and all the way to Athens. There is a little museum there that almost no one goes to and almost no one knows about. Full, full stocked with just Artemis artifacts because it was an Artemis temple. Monica (Host) | 00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 And what would some of those artifacts be? Carla (Guest) | 00:31:59 --> 00:34:18 So anything from statuets to vases to funerary schemas. So people like to put you know how we have tombstones. People would do that with the depiction of their favorite gods or with a depiction of something that they believed in or liked. Tons of those of Artemis. And the other thing that's really fascinating there is hundreds of children's statues. I don't know if you've ever seen it. Sometimes I post it on my social media. Sometimes people get a little bit sometimes people DM me and they're like, this is a little creepy. But what they used to do for children that have passed away or were alive, depending if they had money or if they didn't, they would do something smaller. They would create a little sculpture of the child that looks just like the child and leave it in the temple of Artemis on one side, of course, if they were alive, so that she would bless them and take care of them. And then in another place if they were passed away, so that she would bless them and take care of them in the other. Hundreds, maybe thousands of these are found at this temple. Some of them are just like a hand or a foot. I would say they have maybe 2030. Who knows what they have in the back that are fully full children bodied. I don't think they know names or anything like that. And this is just one massive example, but we find this in other temples as well. Women would leave their placentas. Women would leave they used to wear like a kind of girdle, right? They would leave that at the temple. Now we don't have as many of these. I don't actually think we have any of the girdles. They would leave their shawls like they used to wear head coverings. So they would leave different offerings for the goddess to protect them. So we have stories about them leaving those things because those disintegrate faster than stone. Yes, we don't have and never mind the gold, because temples used to be like banks. Never mind the gold and the wealth. I mean, Artemis of Ephesus, her temple in Ephesus, which is modern day Turkey, is one of the seven wonders of the ancient world because it was so. Large, it had so much wealth. And Artemis of Ephesus is a very complex figure because she's called Queen of Heaven, kind of like the Virgin Mary. Monica (Host) | 00:34:18 --> 00:34:18 Interesting. Carla (Guest) | 00:34:19 --> 00:34:25 And she's called Mother, which is also fascinating. So that's the book I'm working on next. Monica (Host) | 00:34:25 --> 00:34:30 Oh, my gosh, I love how your face just lit up. You're like, yes, that's so great. Carla (Guest) | 00:34:30 --> 00:34:37 I mean, there's so much about her that is yeah. Anyways, I could go on about that forever. Monica (Host) | 00:34:37 --> 00:34:45 Okay, so let me ask you this, too. Why does nobody know about this temple, like you said, help me understand why. Carla (Guest) | 00:34:46 --> 00:36:15 So scholars know about it. And Turkey does do a massive tour. Okay, so number one is there's nothing left of the temple except a column, literally a column in a field. So I think it's not a great tourist attraction in that way. It's not physically something. Ephesus itself, as an ancient city of Romans and later Christians, is very nice and you could walk around it's quite large. But the actual temple, nothing stands except the one column. So there's lots of reproductions. We know lots of information about it because, like I said, it was a massive piece of architecture. So I think in that way, people don't know. So I'm taking people to Ephesus. We have a trip that's coming up, actually in the middle of May, and we're going to be there for ten days. And I'm doing a tour of Artemis. And one of the things, one of the goals of this tour, though, we're going to see other things, is to go to the two museums in Ephesus where they house these massive statues of Artemis Aphesia. And if you just do a simple Google search and you look up Artemis of Ephesus, you can kind of see the statues that come up. All of them are replicas, unfortunately, like Roman replicas. We don't have the originals. They were destroyed. Long story. But she was such a powerhouse and I don't know why people don't well, like I said, there isn't very much interest in the academic world. And this is why I call myself the Artemis expert. Not to brag, but just because among academics oh, you can brag. Monica (Host) | 00:36:15 --> 00:36:18 I love women bragging. Hell yeah. Bring it. Carla (Guest) | 00:36:18 --> 00:37:05 Among academics, no one else is working on her. Yeah, now, there were some in the past that did, and hopefully there will be some in the future, but right now there's like this gap. No one is working on her. So there's a lot of thirst, like we talked about earlier, for information and for knowledge, which inspires me to keep going or else I'd feel like I'm in a vacuum or a void. Is it just me that's interested in her? So I'm glad that that is there, but as far as academics, even academic publishers would not be interested in Artemis right now. So before I published my book, I self published it. I was shopping it around and a lot of the academic presses were like, well, I don't know. We're doing something. Monica (Host) | 00:37:05 --> 00:37:06 I don't know. Carla (Guest) | 00:37:06 --> 00:37:44 Everybody, they've got their own little skewed views of what they want to do. I don't know if Artemis will fit here and can you make her fit like this? Can you talk more about, I don't know, the reconstruction of buildings or some stuff? And I thought, no, we need to get the story out about her. People need to know about it. And so I had to give up on academic press, which is tough for an academic because that's part of your whole bragging rights. And I said, no, I'm just going to publish it myself, just to know that I'm answering the call, and the call is let people know my story. Monica (Host) | 00:37:46 --> 00:37:46 Yeah. Carla (Guest) | 00:37:46 --> 00:38:20 And so I'm like, no, I'm going to do this, and I'm just going to talk about her myself, which is how we got here today. And hopefully people talk about her more, and then maybe that pressure I want to know more about her will interest others to write, and if it doesn't, that's okay. We don't really need that many academics doing it. So that has been the challenge, and I don't know why that is. Again, my thought is that she answers a call for women. And many of these presses, many of. Monica (Host) | 00:38:20 --> 00:38:27 These publishers ruled still by men with certain interests. Carla (Guest) | 00:38:27 --> 00:38:27 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:38:27 --> 00:41:12 I mean, we can just save a thing. Yeah, okay, well, what else? You described I couldn't help but kind of relate it to how the Revelation Project kind of works for me, which is and you and I had the opportunity to have a call about a month ago. Right. And we just kind of meandered into a very kind of deep conversation within, like, the first five minutes. But it really struck me as you were describing how you began working with Artemis and how determination became devotion. And I love how you say that, because that's and you had said she started out as a project. And I always wonder, I'm like, My gosh. The Revelation Project, for me, really is all about revealing all that's been hidden, all that's been lost, all that's been suppressed, all that's been denied. And it's so goddess centric in so many ways. When you think about what the goddess if you were literally to take all of these aspects of her, Artemis being one of them, that it's such a kind of centrally goddess project, that even the way that I allow it to kind of resource me, that I lean into, what does the project want next? I feel like I'm being guided in a way that is very much about paying attention to the nuances, the subtleties, the synchronicities that actually guide me in a different direction. And if I follow where it leads me, there's always a treasure trove. There's always a revelation that is so fruitful and can bring me down so many different paths. And the reason that I point to this distinction is because I think as women, this is what we're trying to remember is how to be powerfully in the world. Carla (Guest) | 00:41:13 --> 00:41:13 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:41:14 --> 00:41:23 But without this power over, without needing to control everything, it's a different kind of power. Carla (Guest) | 00:41:24 --> 00:41:24 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:41:25 --> 00:41:38 And it invites us to meet it. It's not about grabbing it or seizing it or it's not that. You know what I mean? Carla (Guest) | 00:41:38 --> 00:41:39 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:41:39 --> 00:41:55 There's such a gentle and fierce and nourishing. All of the ways that we could express the Goddess is how we would express allowing the feminine to be remembered within ourselves. Carla (Guest) | 00:41:55 --> 00:42:07 Yes. That is so beautiful, actually. So beautiful, the way you say that. So the one thing that came up, as you were saying, is that my podcast is called The Goddess Project. Monica (Host) | 00:42:07 --> 00:42:09 Yeah, right. Carla (Guest) | 00:42:10 --> 00:42:37 And for me, the reason why I started that is because I want to put out as much more primary source material to people who may not want to take a university degree. So my thing, I felt like, while yours is I feel like it's just an interesting project we've got going, because for me, I feel like, you know what? I would like to have information, my research, because I love research. That's sort of my center. Monica (Host) | 00:42:37 --> 00:42:39 It's mine, too, by the way. Carla (Guest) | 00:42:40 --> 00:44:51 You want to make it accessible, you want to open it up, you want to show pictures, you want to have conversations. And that's really why I started the podcast. In some ways, I'm conversating with myself, and now I'm conversating with others, but it's this accessibility that's putting it out there without having to publish, like, through academic press or through some other thing. And so that's really interesting that you say that. And I absolutely love this idea of power. I feel like this is something that women have always known. It's something that's intrinsic, I feel like some women are afraid to either admit or acknowledge that power within themselves, because then what do you do? What does it mean? And that's what I mean. You can't grab it. You can't take it. It's here. The only thing is I think we are raised often to either deny it or subside it. Because for me, for example, one of my things that I've been working on is I always feel like because I'm smart, because I'm quick to do things, because I'm capable, but whatever, okay, all these things, I must always sort of put myself a little to the side and just let others also be successful. Do you see what I'm saying? And I feel like that means you're embracing 50, 60% of your power because, you know, you already have 100%. So it's like, okay, you don't have to show you. So there's this I guess I don't know if it's a push towards humility. It's a very Christian thing, like be happy to be poor, be happy to be humble, be happy to struggle. And only very recently, I've started talking more about, no, we don't have to do that. And ironically, in the ancient Greek world, greek gods and goddesses did not reward people. In fact, and I know that Nietzsche talks about this, anybody who's out there who knows about Nietzsche, but Nietzsche talks about this a lot. They didn't actually like anyone that was humble or submissive or was like, oh, yeah, just give me all the things I'm really scared to do. Arthur actually rewards fierceness. She surrounds herself with women that are. Monica (Host) | 00:44:51 --> 00:44:54 Tough, women that are powerful, and there's abundance there. Carla (Guest) | 00:44:54 --> 00:44:55 Right. Monica (Host) | 00:44:55 --> 00:45:00 But here's the other thing I love about what you're saying, because it's not pie. Carla (Guest) | 00:45:01 --> 00:45:01 Right. Monica (Host) | 00:45:01 --> 00:45:09 So in other words, it's like by you shining your brightest, it doesn't diminish, it doesn't give her less of the pie. Carla (Guest) | 00:45:10 --> 00:45:10 Right. Monica (Host) | 00:45:11 --> 00:45:19 Because there is plenty. And I think this is the other thing, is that Artemis is the goddess of sufficiency. Carla (Guest) | 00:45:20 --> 00:45:21 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:45:21 --> 00:45:25 She's the goddess of her own fucking enoughness. Carla (Guest) | 00:45:25 --> 00:45:25 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:45:26 --> 00:45:45 And she's not going to be categorized. She's not going to be diminished, she's not going to apologize for being shiny and brilliant. Right. And so no wonder she's your goddess. Carla (Guest) | 00:45:48 --> 00:46:02 Yes, 100%. But I guess for me, I only really started giving myself permission to embrace all that when I reached an age where you care less. Right? Monica (Host) | 00:46:02 --> 00:46:19 Well, we think so. We think so, because I think we make an assumption there instead of you've actually put in the work to get to this place where you're actually having this revelation, because we can associate it with age and wisdom. But you don't just sage. Carla (Guest) | 00:46:21 --> 00:46:22 True. Very true. Monica (Host) | 00:46:23 --> 00:46:34 A lot of 60, 70, 80 year old women are still in wounded maiden. So this is not very true. This is actually like a fruit of your labor. Carla (Guest) | 00:46:35 --> 00:47:14 Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah. It's so funny, because sometimes I have these small moments like you've just given me here. I was in a retreat once, and I was doing a talk. They had called me. They had invited me to do a talk at their retreat. And I was talking, and then I said something after my lecture, I said something like, you know, I'd really like to figure out what my service is and what I'm doing. And they looked at me that the retreat leaders. And they were like, this is your service, Carla. You're doing your service by coming here. And I thought, oh, my God. Because she just don't think of it that way. Monica (Host) | 00:47:16 --> 00:47:31 My dear friend always says, sage, if you're out there listening, this is for you, babe. She always would tell me, monica, you can't read the label from inside the bottle. Right. And that sounds like you. Yeah. Carla (Guest) | 00:47:31 --> 00:47:53 Yes. It seems like such a simple thing, but until they said it to me, I was like, yeah. So I think you're absolutely right that you come to some of these revelations. You're right. Like you're putting in the work and yeah. One day someone says something to you and you're like, oh, my God, yes, I've been doing this. Monica (Host) | 00:47:53 --> 00:48:15 Well, that's the other thing is, I think that's part of the remembering is the revelation, because it's like, oh, yeah, I remember now, because we're trying to reintegrate these parts of us that have been disintegrated, they've been fractured, they've been cast out of the garden because of all of the bullshit storytelling. Carla (Guest) | 00:48:15 --> 00:48:16 That's right. Monica (Host) | 00:48:16 --> 00:49:28 We've been sitting in this toxic storytelling soup that's all narrated by his story. It's not her story, it's history. And we've been swimming in that soup for so long that we don't even friggin know that we don't know right. And we don't know that we do know right until we do. And that's when the revelation happens, when we're like, I'm going to dare to know what I know. And this is this part about you understanding this as your work, as valid, as worthy, as sufficient, as enough is like, this is substantial, and it's not to be dismissed and it's not to be disregarded. And this kind of ties into this next kind of place. I want to lead this conversation, which is for my listener. How would you encourage her to work with goddess or find her way or her goddess or anything you want to say about that? Carla (Guest) | 00:49:28 --> 00:51:00 That's a fantastic question. And one of the reasons why I started making short little online courses called Goddess Basics. Now, I've got ten of them planned, but I've only put up two because I'm an anal academic, so I got to do all the research. But one of the things I find so I've been invited to talk at a lot of retreats and things like that, and I love doing it. One of the things I find the first one, I guess, is that people are curious about a goddess. They go on Google, they look her up. Okay, that's great, but Google tends to be very repetitive. The Internet tends to be very repetitive. And then it becomes an issue of who do I trust? How do I identify this primary source? What is this homer, dude? What is he talking about? Because there's a lot of complexities around that. And so I thought, you know what? I'm going to set up some small courses, like short online courses that people, when they begin. So I literally just named them hera Persephone artemis. Whatever. So that if you want to know something but you don't know where to start, this is the first place to start. And I don't mean just mine, but anybody that's doing a course that has some primary source, some reading and some description about what was this goddess like in the ancient world, because one of my things is that I would like for us to trace back what were our rituals? How did we practice things like, what were we wearing? What did we eat? I once did a podcast with ancient blogger, and we talked about these cakes that they made for Artemis. And then he went, we found the recipes. I sent him the recipe, but I don't really cook. Monica (Host) | 00:51:00 --> 00:51:01 I don't either. Carla (Guest) | 00:51:01 --> 00:51:21 And he actually made them, and he posted them, and he tasted them, and I was like, oh, my God. So, like, the food, these are these little cakes, these little deer cakes that they made for Artemis. And so I'm really interested in not just talking about mythology and ritual, but actually trying to apply it today. Monica (Host) | 00:51:22 --> 00:51:23 Reclaim it. Carla (Guest) | 00:51:23 --> 00:52:08 Yes, exactly. And so I think that's the first start. And then I think once you have some base about this goddess, you can really then decide for yourself, does this goddess really connect to me, or were there calls of other colors or shapes or feelings? Maybe another goddess? And so I think this is how women may because I've had women come to me and go, I've tried to work with Artemis, but she's very powerful, she's very strong, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that. I said, okay, maybe try this goddess or that. I've had people come up to me and say, I've tried working with Heckety, and she totally crashed my altar, like, literally broke things. And I say, yeah, hecati is not a goddess. You just decide. TikTok tells you you need to worship her, and therefore you start. Right, right. Monica (Host) | 00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 It's like Kali. Kali comes to you. You don't go to Kali usually. Carla (Guest) | 00:52:14 --> 00:52:47 And so I think part of that is some research learning, like, yeah, need to do some research on the goddess that you feel called to to see if you're ready for that, or maybe you just feel called and maybe it's maybe a different goddess to start with. Whatever. So I would say that's the first approach. And then after that, you kind of go with your intuit. You feel like, okay, I have a base now for a couple of few goddesses. I feel pulled to. Which one do I, let's say, continue on the journey with and see how it works moving forward, and then tap into some of the others as you go along. Monica (Host) | 00:52:47 --> 00:53:07 Well, and here's what I want to add to what you said, which is so great, which is that working with a goddess, no matter which you choose to work with, that will be a revelation project, let me tell you, because the essence of the goddess is to reveal. Carla (Guest) | 00:53:07 --> 00:53:08 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:53:08 --> 00:53:16 That is what she is all about. And it's like she will reveal. You will feel. Carla (Guest) | 00:53:17 --> 00:53:18 Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:53:18 --> 00:53:41 And by virtue of that, you will heal, because the goddess is there's so much I want to say here as a writer also, Carla, I find myself sometimes in these conversations realizing how much content there is in a particular subject and thread. Carla (Guest) | 00:53:41 --> 00:53:42 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:53:42 --> 00:54:46 And this is one of them where there's kind of for me, this emergence of these parallels with what you're doing and what I'm doing and seeing way more threads than I had an hour ago, right? And I find that the goddess is so committed to awakening. So to go back to kind of this conversation for a minute about patriarchy, or what my dear friend Dr. Joanna Kuyava now calls the Patrix good word. Good word. And I've heard other women mention it, but for some reason, when she said it the other day, to me, it just landed, and it sat there, and it wasn't going anywhere. It's like oh, yeah. It's not the Matrix. It's the Patrix. Carla (Guest) | 00:54:47 --> 00:54:47 Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:54:47 --> 00:56:55 Because the Patrix wants us to keep going outside of ourselves to the white sky God, the father God, the white male God. That is such a big part of the trance of unworthiness that's this kind of very Abrahamic God that punishes, that sees all that is jealous. It's bizarre. But the more I kind of just extract myself from all things, that the more unbecoming I become as a woman, the more I like myself, right? And the more I can see things that I could not see. And I look at all of those things that I can now see as revelations that have occurred over time, and those revelations are cumulative. They continue to kind of initially kind of build this foundation for embodiment that has me stand firmly in my knowing. And in my knowing, I don't need to know. And that's the interesting thing, right, is all I need to know is that I am enough. That is the place I come from, just as I am, and that more will be revealed and more always is. And if I focus my attention on something and I want to know more about that, as long as I'm coming from a place of I am enough just as I am, and I request to know more about this thing that I am focused on in this moment, I will start to be shown things. Not instantly, but over time. It's literally like I come into a co creative process that I call the Revelation Project. That is how it works for me. Carla (Guest) | 00:56:55 --> 00:56:56 Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:56:56 --> 00:57:29 And I can't help but see the goddess in every veil that is lifted, because she did come to me first as Kali, and she did not tap my shoulder, because gentler goddesses tried of this, I'm clear. And then Kali was like, oh, hell no. You did not come to this planet to do this. Carla (Guest) | 00:57:30 --> 00:57:30 Yes. Monica (Host) | 00:57:30 --> 00:57:48 So she hit me with the two by four and ripped off my ego head and basically pretty much vomited down my neck all of the ways that I was needing to change. And it was not pleasant at all, right? Carla (Guest) | 00:57:49 --> 00:57:49 Yeah. Monica (Host) | 00:57:49 --> 00:57:59 But I'll tell you, it woke me. It shook me awake in the most profound way. And once she was kind of I. Carla (Guest) | 00:57:59 --> 00:58:01 Was like, thank you. Monica (Host) | 00:58:01 --> 00:59:52 May I have another? And then, of course, really just wanted her to fade off into the sunset so that I could work with somebody a little more gentle and over time. Right. I did get to see that I could work with so many goddesses would kind of appear in my life. And I would just notice because part of the awareness, once you kind of have kind of a shaking down which I kind of tend to wonder if it isn't always Kali that kind of comes in to just shake us up in some way. And maybe for some stay until we really get the message, but for others, kind of like, it just needs to be a little shake up and then send goddess. It's a little more gentle. But I find that as certain goddesses have come in, that becomes then the next goddess that I'm really to learn about. And so Our Lady of Guadalupe or Mary Magdalene, and a lot of people are like, well, that's not a goddess. It's like yes, she is. Yes, she is. All of these archetypes are the goddess in one form or another. Quan Yin. Right. So there's so many. And then you have, of course, Durga and the Hindu goddesses and the Greek goddesses. It is really beautiful and powerful and so kind of synergistic with Revelation is the goddess. That's what I want to add in a very long winded way, but in a way that I think really occurs for me in this moment through this generative conversation with you. Carla (Guest) | 00:59:52 --> 01:00:46 Yeah, I love that you talk about that shaking up, because I am the same way. And I think that comes from being strong women or ambitious women. Sometimes I blame it on just being a capricorn. But for me, I feel like I say to my friend, the last year or so, year and a half that sort of shaped my life. Yeah. I felt like I was thrown into a brick wall. It's like I've had these ideas. And then I always think, like, I know. I know exactly what I'm doing. I know exactly. And I think the same thing. I don't know if it was Artemis per se that threw me into a brick wall. I think maybe she helped me sort of get up and be like, okay, what? Because there have been moments where there are goddesses that I can't name, that I feel have really like, darker. I like to call those dark goddesses. Monica (Host) | 01:00:46 --> 01:00:47 Yes. Carla (Guest) | 01:00:48 --> 01:01:17 When I started walking into caves a couple of years ago, I could feel this presence that was both frightening but also benevolent necessary. Yeah. So I don't know what god if that is. And the last time I was in Crete, we had a moment where I literally got back to my car and I thought, is this what people talk about when they have a download in the moment you're not thinking, and then you get in the car and I go, I think I just had, like, a moment anyways. But I would say no, I'm not sure. Monica (Host) | 01:01:18 --> 01:01:30 Don't dismiss it because this is great for my listener, it's great, but we have this tendency to be like, oh, that sounds weird. I'm going to move on, but talk about it. Carla (Guest) | 01:01:30 --> 01:04:27 I know, you're right. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. So thank you for that. Yeah, there's something about not talking about it. I guess it's still that academic brain or indoctrination. Actually, it's not brains. Indoctrination. Yeah. I started doing this thing while I was last in Crete, where I started making little offerings. And there is a cave, supposedly a cave to Artemis or Britain artists and could be several goddesses that I love that has a very powerful, very powerful presence. And I go to it often, and it's a bit scary, but also so enticing. Anyways, before I left Crete, I was like, what does the goddess like? Again? This is part of the research. Well, she likes some honey and she likes some of these things. So I bought some food and I made offerings in the cave. And there's Cretan goddesses and priestesses are represented with their hands up all the time. They're like, in that prayer position. And so I was first just doing your own meditation and talking, and then I thought, you know what? I'm going to tap into that position and see how it feels, because obviously they're doing this position in caves and everywhere. So anyways, I start doing this position, and I don't know how to explain it, so I said something like, Hello, Mother, or thank you, whatever. And I felt this presence walk around me. And then in my ear, she's like, hello, daughter. And I thought I was just jolted and yeah, and we just had she just said, you know, to me about your your offering is accepted. And but I was not meditating. I was standing in this position. Like, I wasn't you know, sometimes you're on meditation, you're on a journey, you're like, okay, I've had that bit of contact, but this was so then in the moment I don't know. I don't know, the moment feels surreal. And then only when I got back to my car, I thought to myself, no, she was talking to me. There was somebody talking to me. There was a power. Oh, and then I had this vision of these black wings. Not even wings, like, black fire behind me and up my arms. And I had this whole moment with her of power. All I felt was like, power. You need to step into your power. You are a powerful human being, and you keep fearing that power because you feel it's imposing, because you feel it's. Whatever. I don't know. I wrote a whole thing when I got to my car, pages and pages. So I would remember the details of the flames. I would remember the because you forget sometimes. I don't think I've ever really shared that with anybody. Monica (Host) | 01:04:28 --> 01:06:31 Well, what I really wanted to say is just thank you. Thank you. For sharing that, because I have my own experiences. And again, they're hard to describe because it's like they come to you in a language that's older than words. It's not the way we think it should be, right, or what we've even ever imagined. It's not that your experience and my experience and anybody who's listening experience is as individual as they are. And what I think the other thing that you were pointing to, which I love, is there are postures. I mean, the Yogis know this. They called the mudras. And this is some of what we're reclaiming and some of what we're digging up are these lost rituals, as you were saying, and there's a reason they've been buried. The reason is because there are many subtle realms that we cannot see that are beyond our five senses. And this is part of what we've been told is hogwash nonsense. And this is this very masculine, linear, logical way that does not have does that does not make any space for the feminine. And so therefore and not only does it not make space for the feminine, but if we were honest, there was a very particular time, in fact, there was at one point a library of papyrus, of all of the ancient wisdom and magic, and it was burnt down. It was burnt down. And do you remember who burnt it down? Because it was in Greece. Carla (Guest) | 01:06:32 --> 01:06:34 Yes, but I don't it was a. Monica (Host) | 01:06:34 --> 01:06:36 Pope, I think, but maybe I have. Carla (Guest) | 01:06:37 --> 01:06:37 To look that up. Monica (Host) | 01:06:38 --> 01:08:02 But there was one. There was one. And the reason I bring this up is because, again, the invalidation, whenever there's a huge invalidation, the thing that made me keep moving toward the feminine was my curiosity. Like, there's got to be more here. There's got to be more to this story, even the story of Eve, all of the stories that have been co opted, the ones that have been purposely left, because there's many interpretations and there's many translations. My point is, and I always say this on the podcast, it's by design, because this is powerful and our birthright as human beings to be able to tap into these energetics and these benevolent spirits, goddesses, essences, archetypes, whatever works for you to call it, but also to really kind of welcome that like anything, there is a spectrum. And you called it Dark Goddess. Carla (Guest) | 01:08:02 --> 01:08:02 Right? Monica (Host) | 01:08:02 --> 01:08:08 And there are Dark Goddesses. And by saying that, I want to be clear, we do not mean evil. Carla (Guest) | 01:08:08 --> 01:08:10 No, not at all. Monica (Host) | 01:08:10 --> 01:08:14 And we're not talking about dark magic, we're just talking about magic. Carla (Guest) | 01:08:14 --> 01:08:15 Right. Monica (Host) | 01:08:15 --> 01:08:28 Like there's a spectrum, and you can use any power, any power at all in any of those realms for the highest of good or not. Carla (Guest) | 01:08:29 --> 01:08:29 Yes. Monica (Host) | 01:08:29 --> 01:08:42 So it's all about your intention going in, and it's all about where your heart is going in. And so the only one who knows where your heart is is you. Carla (Guest) | 01:08:42 --> 01:09:26 Yes, absolutely. And I'm glad for that. Clarification because one of the things that I'm working on is celebrating the darkness and the symbols that have been turned into evil through patriarchy. Like, one of the things I always tell my students is whenever you ask somebody who's afraid of snakes, 99% of the time it's women that put their hands up and some men and I always say that is a symbol of power for us. That is something that has always been benevolent to us. And yet this one story creates this evil demonic association, and therefore now we're all afraid of. So for me, literally, women being afraid of snakes is a metaphor for women being afraid of their power. Monica (Host) | 01:09:26 --> 01:09:27 That's right. Carla (Guest) | 01:09:27 --> 01:09:49 And the same thing about darkness. We are afraid of darkness. Why? Well, if you ask women, Why are you afraid of the dark? It's usually because there's a man hidden in there. Right. You don't want to go into a dark cave. You don't want to go into a dark room. You don't want to go outside after dark. And yet darkness, like, the soil, the darkness, the night darkness, the womb darkness. Monica (Host) | 01:09:49 --> 01:09:52 That is our right. Yes. Carla (Guest) | 01:09:52 --> 01:11:41 And it has been taken from us. We've been made afraid of it. When I went to go look for temples in Crete, sometimes you have to hike over mountains on your own. And one of the things that I kept thinking is, I know there's no one on this mountain except me. And yet I've been trained to worry that there's a man hiding in a tree waiting for me, some woman coming in the middle of a mountain, right. And it really, really defined for me how my fear has been, how I've been brainwashed and indoctrinated in such a way, in this irrational yet rational fear. Because when you're in a city, that is a fear. And so I would stop on the mountain and breathe and meditate on letting go of this fear. There's no one else on the mountain, Carla. It's goats and me, like, for miles. Because creed is not a place where they have deep forests. You could see the mountain, they have some olive trees, but mostly it's cacti and other so you could see for miles. Right. And yet there's a fear, like someone's maybe on the floor. Right. And so I would like to embrace and this is why I like to go to this cave, because the fear of this cave is me. And my fear, my upbringing of be afraid of the dark places. And even the flames that I had on my back were these black flames. And at first I thought, oh, my God, is this, like an evil thing? But it felt so good and warm and open and powerful without burning or hurting. And I realized my definition of power and symbols of power has been taught to me through patriarchy or through this patriarchal matrix. Monica (Host) | 01:11:42 --> 01:11:51 Right. And so if you were to find, as you have been that that's not true, then what else will you find? Right. Carla (Guest) | 01:11:51 --> 01:11:51 Right. Monica (Host) | 01:11:51 --> 01:12:23 And so it it is it's like this is where I continue to kind of lead with. Just as I said, if there has been so much attention and effort to make you afraid, that's where to go. Because behind that what they have done such a good job of crafting in terms of turning the fear machine so that you stay away from it, that's the place to go, guaranteed, every time. Carla (Guest) | 01:12:24 --> 01:13:38 Yes, absolutely. And this is part of my research, is to find out the applications because so much of the practices were done in caves by women. They would go into caves and there was no fear around the cave. There was no fear of any and so I want to try and rebuild that recreate that for all of us. And of course, I'm not just one person, but in collaboration with others, so that maybe we can, like, always have this thing of like, maybe we can go to there's this one cave of art to miss the white. Bear where I just always imagine every time I go, there just women wrapped around this white bear, just holding candles and just maybe meditating or you don't have to do anything drastic, but it's the presence and the combination. And so I usually go in it by myself. But I imagine when I sit there like just a group of women sitting around me with me, and we just even talking about Artemis. Could you imagine talking about Artemis in her cave with a bunch of women maybe sharing little picnic? Right. It's a reconnection to the source that we need. Yes. We need knowledge, but we also need practice. Monica (Host) | 01:13:38 --> 01:13:45 Well, and we also forget that the goddess is just the feminine face of the source. Carla (Guest) | 01:13:45 --> 01:13:46 Right. Monica (Host) | 01:13:47 --> 01:13:57 If you believe in God, why wouldn't you believe in goddess? She's the feminine face of the same source. Carla (Guest) | 01:13:57 --> 01:13:58 That's right. Monica (Host) | 01:13:59 --> 01:14:07 So what a great conversation. I knew that we would have a great conversation, and of course we did. Carla (Guest) | 01:14:07 --> 01:14:07 We did. Monica (Host) | 01:14:07 --> 01:14:22 And I just wanted to give you an opportunity, Carla, to invite our listeners anywhere you want them to learn more about you or any upcoming anything that you want to invite them to attend. Tell us more and tell us where to go. Carla (Guest) | 01:14:23 --> 01:15:16 So social media wise, you can follow me and find me at artemis experts. So Twitter, Instagram, all those things. TikTok, all those things. I do have the Artemis Research Center website. So that is the place where I do where I post the goddess travel that's coming up, or goddess courses. There's a newsletter where I just kind of send out some Artemis news and things like that. So I would say, yeah, the Artemis Research Center, which is just I think the website is Artemisresearchcenter.com. And if you would like to come and join me in my podcast, it's the Goddess Project. I think in the next coming week or so. I'm talking about main ads and wild women. And so this is just sort of an hour of listening to me talk about what I call the conspiracy theory of goddesses. All the ways that things have been. Monica (Host) | 01:15:16 --> 01:15:20 Hidden from us, different things sign me up. Carla (Guest) | 01:15:21 --> 01:16:09 And that's on YouTube and Spotify and all those kinds of things. Anytime I think people have questions or comments or suggestions, I would really love for them to either comment or DM or you can contact me through the Artemis Research Center website. Because sometimes I think that connection sometimes people, I feel are sometimes maybe a little intimidated to talk or to reach out and they're like, I don't want to bother you, but it's like, no, you're not bothering me. I love to talk about this stuff and to hear people's passion or, oh, I saw this in some show and it connected to this. And they think, oh my God, that's amazing. People are making connections out there. That's what we're supposed to be doing. That's the first step of that awakening. Monica (Host) | 01:16:09 --> 01:16:23 Oh my gosh. Community is everything around the things that you're kind of when I find that there's a soul sister out there that's passionate about the same things that I am, it's just the best feeling ever. Carla (Guest) | 01:16:23 --> 01:16:24 It really is. Monica (Host) | 01:16:24 --> 01:16:40 And I just wrote down dismissal of the goddess, the greatest conspiracy. And it's not a theory. I love it because I love it so friggin true. It's the greatest conspiracy and it's not a theory. Carla (Guest) | 01:16:41 --> 01:17:15 It's true. That's true. It's true. And I think what I'm seeing now, which is really great, is a wave of readiness to unpack, to take apart, to chase down rabbit holes. There's a passion, there's a demand for it and it's powerful. It's just picking up speed. More and more women want to talk about it. Good, right? More women retreats, more women conferences, more women gatherings. And I am just basking in that community. It's beautiful. Monica (Host) | 01:17:15 --> 01:18:57 It's so beautiful. And I think those of us that have been having conversations like this, whether closeted or not, for a long time, are finding each other and are coming like there's almost been a tipping point where kind of just as I think we've been unearthing literally some of these ancient relics and rituals and gospels, we're unearthing them as well in our consciousness. And so it's also coming out in our voices, through podcasts, through our artwork, through our reconnection to our own erotic power. So you see, I mean, I'm seeing women across the board finding the thing that kind of they're most passionate about and it becomes kind of their revelation project that leads them back to remembering themselves whole. And I always want to say that that wholeness includes the masculine, that the feminine includes the masculine. When we allow the masculine to lead, we also are going to be excluded. We as women stepping into leadership are it's a different energy that we're creating we're creating an energy of community, of harmony, of unity, of fierce sovereignty, and all of it gets to belong. So thank you again, Carla. It's just been such a pleasure to be with you and for my listener, more to be revealed. Carla (Guest) | 01:18:58 --> 01:19:00 Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Monica (Host) | 01:19:00 --> 01:19:22 So welcome. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointhrevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on itunes. We thank you for your generous listening, and, as always, more to be revealed.