152 Dr. Christena Cleveland === Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trans of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. So, hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast. So one of the greatest and grittiest passages that I had to cross as I came through the eye of the needle in my unbecoming was confronting my trance around a male God. This was confronting because the very thought of questioning his presence or dominion over my life was in itself filled with trance-like behavior as if I would be struck by lightning for even thinking about it or questioning it. Growing up in a strict Roman Catholic household, I had never been offered any spiritual autonomy and my faith in God, or as today's guest refers to this patriarchal construct as the great white male. God was never to be questioned. As the trans like hold of the patriarchal delusion crumbled around me, I became more and more curious and then horrified by what I found as I removed layer after layer of beliefs that kept me in the trance of unworthiness and how deeply this is. Really shaped by religion in terms of at least my personhood and my life. So today's guest is Dr. Christena Cleveland, who is a social psychologist, a public theologian, an author and an activist, and she is a brilliant author and writer. She wrote the book, God is a Black Woman, and I just finished it last week and it has rocked my world a little bit more about her before we begin, but I cannot wait for this conversation because she talked about so many things that I know that you as my audience are going to deeply appreciate because you are all in this process as well of unbecoming. So a little bit more on Christena. She is the founder and the director of the Center for Justice and Renewal, as well as its sister organization, sacred Folk, which creates resources to stimulate people's spiritual imaginations and support their journeys toward liberation. She's a weaver of black liberation and the sacred feminine, and she integrates psychology, theology, storytelling, and art to stimulate our spiritual imaginations. So this was her third length book. God is a black woman. Which details her 400 mile Walking pilgrimage across France in search of ancient black Madonna statues. And during her journey, she examines the relationship among race, gender, and cultural perceptions of the divine. So with just giving you a little bit of background, you could see why I was so interested in having her as a guest on the show. She holds a PhD in social psychology from the University of California, Santa Barbara, as well as she is an honorary. Doctorate from the Virginia Theological Seminary. She's also an award-winning researcher and author, and a Ford Foundation fellow who has held faculty positions at several institutions of higher education, most recently at Duke University's Divinity School. So please join me in welcoming Dr. Christena Cleveland. Hi, Christena. Christena: Hello. Thank you for having me. Monica: Oh, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for being here and just honoring us with this piece of work. This is such a beautiful piece. I'm just so blessed to have been able to read it, and I was resonating, as I told you, with so much that I, of course I have like a million questions, but what I would love to start with is actually just. You know, telling our listeners like, what had you decided to do the pilgrimage and just a little bit more about that. Christena: Mm. So the pilgrimage was really an active desperation. I am, um, I mean, some of it's personality. I'm quite, um, a daring person and I tend to be pretty willing to take risks. But I did walk, you know, 400 miles across Central France and what turned out to be a mountainous area in the middle of winter without any knowledge of the French language and without any like, real pilgrimage path. It wasn't like this, the like Camino or something where lots of other people have done this pilgrimage. So it was a little bit bananas for me to do that and some of it's personality, but a lot of it was, I was absolutely desperate to, to encounter in the flesh images of the divine that I could relate to. I had grown up in this world of white male, God. And as a black girl and a black young woman growing up, I'd always felt alienated from this God. And it sort of built up to this sort of volcanic tipping point. I guess. I had questions from early on about this God, and you know, usually my questions would turn into self doubt or turn into self-judgment because that's what patriarchy teaches us. You're supposed to blame the victim . And so I'm like, well, if I'm having questions about this God, then I'm supposed to feel safe with, you know, this, God is Emmanuel, God is with us, supposedly. But I don't feel that, okay, I should just double down on my prayer and my disciplines and ands, and my face and, um, whipped myself into shape. But over time, as I, and that lasted for a long time, that sort of conditioning, but over time, as I grew into adulthood and became more and more disillusioned with the world, and part of that was, you know, a big, big catalyst was 20. 2012 when Trayvon Martin was killed by George Zimmerman and coming face to face with just the spiritual community that I had been a part of, and their unwillingness to see black pain, even though at it was literally a national conversation at that point. And then another tipping point or critical point when Trump got elected and seeing how the way he talked about and treated women wasn't taken seriously by that same faith community. So I eventually gotta this point where I was like, gosh, I, I need another image of the divine that I can trust, that I can relate to, and that I, that sees me mm-hmm. Cause I didn't feel seen by this white male God. And so, you know, I I, I started just researching and found the Black Madonna within very quickly, which felt like a, a gift, but, After a couple years of studying her from afar, just based on books and pictures, and I think I took some like e-courses on the black Madonna. You know, I had to go see her because I'd been surrounded by these images of white male, God my whole life. Mm-hmm. and really poisoned by them. And I thought, you know, what we can imagine is so important, I wanna go see her and touch her. And so , I decided to go to this area of Central France called the UVA Region. It's very under. Under publicized. Most people in France have never been to it. . Monica: Yeah. They're like, where is this place you speak of? Right? Yeah. Christena: What is this also like, you know, why would you go there? If people have heard of it, they kind, I don't know if some of your listeners have a Christian background, but kind of that same idea of like, Jesus was from Nazareth. Why would any, why would anything good come from Nazareth, right? Mm-hmm. , so there's like, it's out in the middle of nowhere. It's kinda back country. They actually call that part of France, deep France, like, like the deep south because it's just so French. It's so old country, not particularly diverse. So like in Paris or Marsai or Bordeaux, you're gonna see lots of other people. It's, they're international cities, right? Like you see lots of people who aren't French there in those cities. Yes. And not in the , like in er, it's all these old French people, but it's this magical place where they're within like a. 20 mile radius of the major city. There are like 40 black ancient black Madonna statues in these tiny villages. And the whole area is surrounded by volcanic mountains. So it's just very sacred. Yes. Oh, it's, it's forever been this like very sacred spiritual place and so, and there's lots of hot springs and everywhere of course, because the volcanic activity. So yeah. Monica: I'm like, I'm dying to go. Of course I've read Mary Magdalene Revealed, I don't know if you read that. Mm-hmm. . I know. And also, you know, longing for the. Mm-hmm. , but just the descriptions and like I did you, I'm just gonna ask like, did you find the cave of eggs or was that even on your, on your path? Christena: No, that wasn't on my list. Monica: So it's just like, and that was all news to me, right. That that was such a, such a prolific place for the Black Madonna and just the devotion that The Christena: devotion, yeah. It's pretty extraordinary. Yeah. Yeah. And you still see it today? I mean, it's, there are, you know, it's interesting cuz France is extremely secular. Mm-hmm. So most people don't go to church and the churches are generally empty. And a lot of these black Madonnas are in churches now that don't have a parish priest or anything. Cause they just, there are no services there. Sometimes you, you know, you walk all day to get there and it's locked and , you know, stuff like that. But, There are, I'd say two groups of people that are still quite devoted. There's the old mothers. Mm-hmm. . Yes. So I met all these people who were like, oh my gosh, my grandmother loves a black Madonna. You have to meet her. And they would translate. Yes. And the grandmother would meet me and start crying. Cuz she'd be so honored that I came all the way from the US to see her Black Monica: Madonna. Oh yes. Of course. Deep, Christena: deep devotion. Deep generosity. A kinship, you know, stay at our house, come back for Christmas, you know, like you're one of us. That sort of vibe. And then you see younger folks, millennials and Gen Zers, young Gen Xers who are like witchy. Yes. The black Madonna. So very much coming from an outside of the Catholic church Yes. With recognizing her powers in a much more pagan or crystal pagan kind of way. And so there's, there's still a lot devotion. Monica: What it's bringing up for me is I have also had Perdita Finn on the show, and Perdita wrote the Way of the Rose, and she talks about, you know, these, just these elders, these wise women who have had that devotion and have passed down that devotion generation after generation again, the rosary is an act of rebellion. Christena: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Monica: and really like keeping the Madonna of their understanding, the goddess of their understanding very much present in, you know, their hearts, in their bodies. Yeah. And just really, you know, hearing like, I love that they were like so honored that you came, that it, it holds so much meaning for them. Christena: Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's really interesting. I mean, yeah, there are so many dynamics that play . I mean, you just see me in these tiny villages where literally it's like a whole parade of people following me around. You know? Or like I, I had an experience just last year, cause I was back in France for three months, just doing some more personal pilgrimage and. I met several people in the, in the village and then, you know, the, the sort of the village phone tree got activated through that. And then that afternoon I was randomly in a coffee shop in that village and the mayor came up to me cuz he had heard of me through the, you know, like, so it's just like, and of course being a black woman in these spaces that are typically like white and being young in a place that we're very much like, this is an elderly pop, an aging, you know, it's like the sort of rural agricultural area. So an aging population. Um, so there's just so many reasons why there's buzz. A lot of curiosity. But then of course just a lot of like connection, immediate connection because many of these folks, I mean the Black Madonna is, is the center of the culture in their village. Monica: Yes. And so for the listeners, and you know, I'd really love for you to just express, well, I wanna go back, first of all to this desperation that you talked about, right? Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: Yeah. And also like what the Black Madonna symbolizes, not only for you, but for these, this culture, this, um, the, the, her history of it. Uh, little bit, if you don't mind. Yeah, Christena: Sure. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I don't think there's anyone who's looking, you know, my background, social psychology. I'm a black woman who was raised in the 20th century, you know, mostly in the 20th century in the United, sorry, 20th and 21st century in the United States. And so, you know, I'm definitely applying a critical race lens to my perception of the Black Madonna. And part of that desperation for her came out of my experience as a black person in the United States. And the fear. That I experienced the, the trauma that I incurred by being a black person, the alienation in many spiritual spaces, not just Christian ones. But I spent a lot of time in Buddhist spaces and Jewish, you know, this, this, this idea of white male God that really transcends any one particular space. Monica: Oh my God, does it ever? Christena: And so a I was. I think I look at her blackness and hold onto her blackness in a way that I haven't seen amongst people who have been devoted to the Black Madonna. Now, that doesn't mean that, that it's not out there somewhere, and I'm hoping to spend some time with like the Algerian Black Madonna or some of the South African black Madonnas because that there might be a different experience than what I've encountered. But when I've read books written by Western people, primarily women, Or looked at the way people have studied the history of the Black Madonna. I think what I have in common with those folks, I don't think I have race or any sort of, sort of critical race lens in common with them, but I have in common with them desperation. Mm-hmm. She seems to really draw people who have tried everything else Yes. Who have nowhere else to go. And you know, every once in a while you'll see that a big pope or a famous emperor loved the Black Madonna, but for the vast. But in general, the Black Madonna is beloved by the least of these. Mm-hmm. . And I think one other thing that just seems to be a common thread is people come to her because they're carrying something, whether it's a question or a pain or a hope, but there's just like this, there's this way that she invites people to lay whatever it is they're carrying down so that she can carry it for her. I often think of the black Madonna carrying the, the child as she's carrying whatever it is that we need to be carried. Whether it's our grief, like he's, he, he's our grief baby, you know, or he's our hope baby or whatever. But we are just, we can't carry it anymore. Mm-hmm. . Cause we're just human and we just can't. And she's like, I got you. . And so for me, what I was carrying was just all the pain and trauma and questioning of growing up in this world where all that is sacred is white and male. Mm-hmm. and all that is profane is black and female. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: Or black and not male. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: And I wanna be trans-inclusive. Mm. Monica: Yes. Christena: And so, you know, just this, that was, it was too much and my body was breaking down. Mm-hmm. and my. My emotions were revealing this deeper, these deeper cracks that I had tried to cover up for years and years and years. Yes. And so that's kinda who she means to me. And I think that's similar to a lot of other people. Around the world and across history. Monica: Yes. And I, I really, I mean, there was so much that I resonated with, but I was getting really tender with, as you expressed, just the unraveling the, the lifting of those veils as you continue to kind of, and, and just all of your imagery. Right. And all of the ways that you were bringing in these, um, you know, whether it was through movies that you grew up with or other things. Right. Like at, at one point it was like the Princess Bride, and you were talking about the forest and the, you know, the construct of like the, the, the concrete city with the male monuments. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: But where I was really just having so much tenderness and so much resonance was also, as you were talking about, Unraveling this while you were simultaneously very much loving your family and like Christena: mm-hmm. Monica: the dynamics, you know, because there is a deep part I think of me and I would say my listeners, anybody who has grown up in a religious household where you are so insulated. Mm-hmm. , you know, from first of all other. Points of view, other perspectives. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I loved how the first thing that you started talking about when, you know, you said it was actually an act of desperation, was you talked about kind of growing up and like, it was always about like doubling down mm-hmm. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: Anytime you turn to question anything, it suddenly was revealed, like something un unsatisfactory about your character that you would even question Christena: it. Yeah. Yeah. The way I think about it is like, I was pretty much taught at home and in spiritual communities, if there is a problem, I'm the problem, right? Monica: Mm-hmm. , right? Christena: And so I'm starting as, I'm like moving. Away from white male, God, in a way that my spiritual communities of origin, family of origin can't relate to. I'm starting to see, oh, there's a problem. So then the first thought is, well, it must be me . Yes. You know? And I think what's challenging that I think a lot of your listeners can relate to is how much spiritual and social homelessness you're going through at this point too. It's like, This. I don't have a community that's affirming me. I don't have a community of people who are saying like, we're holding you in prayer or come and, you know, like it, you're kinda just on your own. And sometimes you can start to find those communities or carve it out those communities. But there's definitely a liminal space in there that for me was years. Oh yeah. Um, and I still experience it on a level now, but I don't, but I, I, my real, but the beau, the magic of that space and why I think it's so valuable is cause you learn to be with liminality, you know? Yes. You learn. So I, it's not scary to me and it's not even as lonely to me as it used to be. Monica: Right. Christena: Because that's where, it's just, that's where I think I was being invited to let go of a lot of these patriarchal instincts towards, um, certainty. Security, false sense, you know, this false sense of security and all that stuff. So, and needing a community to affirm me as opposed to needing a community so that I could be interdependent or, you know, practice mutuality. But, so yeah, there were a lot of good things happening, but it's extremely scary and lonely and isolating and messy, and Monica: messy as hell. Christena: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Cause there's so many conversations I look back on and I'm like, oh, I, I would've liked to have said that with more grace. I would've liked to have said that in a less reactive way. And then that's where I feel like, you know, she, who cherishes our hot mess. One of the black Madonna's I visited a nicknamed she's saying, But actually you get to be messy. Yes. Monica: Yes. You get to be messy. And I loved too. Yes. I mean, I was just like, at that point I was just jumping up and down because, seriously, because I always talk about, you know, again, like the trance of unworthiness, it's like, how, how does it show up? It shows up in perfectionism. It shows up in, uh, too much and not enough. It shows up in all of those double binds. Right? It shows up in chronic, over apology, even how women hold their bodies. How we don't take up space, how we don't speak up. Right. And it's like all of the places that we have been taught not to go Christena: mm-hmm. Monica: um, are actually the places that we have to reclaim in order to re-inhabit ourselves. And so that. Yeah, our intuition, that means our emotions, that means our sexuality, our sacred sexuality. You know, in all of these places that we were taught, it was dirty or wrong or witchcraft or our in like you start to understand at these deeper, in deeper levels how our body became an emotionally uninhabitable place. And so we left, we disassociated and we are like just up in our heads or out there somewhere dragging it over to the bright side every time, you know? And there is just this coming home that is so. Beautiful and so uncomfortable. Right. And it is so foreign. And it is so, and you know, I say foreign, you know, and I think about you going to this other country, right? And it's like, and the loneliness that you're experiencing while you're on this journey. Mm-hmm. . But it was like this desperation, which you would think is like such a beautiful word, you know? It's brutal and beautiful because when we're desperate, we're raw, which in my world means ready, able and willing. Christena: Mm-hmm Monica: It's like just frigging show me, you know, just mm-hmm. . Is there anybody out there? Right. But um, it's also more like, is there anybody in Christena: there? Yeah. Cause I think it really stimulates our creativity too. Yes. And I think part of the trap of patriarchal, this patriarchal sense of security is that it stifles our creativity. And I love being desperate because then I have to think outside the box. I have to face my fears, whatever those are. And those are usually fears that are dam putting a damper on my creativity. Mm-hmm. . And then I can get out and get out of that. You know, it's uncomfortable of course, but at the end, in the end it's like, well, if I weren't desperate, I never would've gone on this journey. And I know that my, one of my gifts to the world is my sort of inherent theological creativity. That's a gift to me and it's a gift to others, and I wouldn't have been able to even offer that if I hadn't been desperate for it for myself. Monica: I love that theological creativity. I'm making a note right there, I love that so much. And yes, because you know, I've started to also really recognize again that it's almost like when you start to think about the patriarchal programming as this, you, you see like the. The diabolical brilliance, I'll say. And, and I don't mean, you know, I even hesitate to use the word brilliance with it because diabolical is sufficient. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: But there's, when you recognize that even in our school systems, we take kids away from their imagination as soon as possible. Right. And you said in some of your opening sentences, you started realizing how important imagination is. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: .And when we've lost our imagination and our capacity to imagine, then we don't question anymore. And when we don't question, we don't get curious. And when we don't get curious, we just are now like in complacency and the world becomes a very. black and white place. Yeah. I'll just use that purposely. Christena: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Absolutely. That certainly was my experience. Monica: Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I also, you know, really was resonating so much with what you were saying about just kind of like the loneliness, but that it's the loneliness that creates that befriending Yeah. Of yourself. And that begins to invite you into that unknown and all of these, what we would call feminine places that we had been taught not to go Christena: mm-hmm. Monica: or that have been avoided through our patriarchal upbringing. And so, Starting to allow the mass starting to be with the unknown in these liminal spaces. It's like then you start really understanding more deeply, more essentially those that creative gift. And also how if we cannot imagine something different, and this goes back to your journey of wanting to see and be in the presence of the Black Madonna is like, if we cannot touch it, if we cannot imagine it, if we cannot see it, it's like there's a relationship there to our own feeling. Seen our own feeling real, right? Christena: Yeah. And you know it. You know, I think the, the work that you've done around trance of unworthiness, like I, I would, I didn't even know I felt unworthy. I didn't even know I was in that trance until I had, until I was, until I was in the loneliness, right? It's like, cause I was spending so much of my time trying to be there for other people, trying to make sacrifices and all of all that was doing was hiding the deeper issue, which was shame. And so when I was able to release some of those relationships, or at least the, some of the felt closeness of those relationships, all I was left with was lots and lots and lots of shame, . And then it's like, oh, this is what's been beneath the surface this whole time, motivating pretty much everything I do, everything. It was, it's, I think it was amazing to then be able to bring that shame. Cause again, it was, it's, it was overwhelming. It was debilitating to, to kind of, it's almost like in the, you know, at every point in a romantic comedy, there's some sort of mix up or miss signals. And then they're like, everything I thought was true about this relationship is alive. You know? And then of course they find their way back to each other. But that sort of shift and that, that's how I felt is that everything I thought was true about who I am, who God is, what the world is, it's all kind of crumbling. Mm-hmm. . And it's too much for me to bear on my own. And so in that sense, it was wonderful to then be able to take that to the Black Madonna in person. Yes. Say this is what is happening. . Yes. And allow, you know, it's interesting, like, I'm not sure how I would describe my interactions with these black Madonnas, but I would say imagination was a big part of it. Using the art of who they are in terms of their physical features. And all of them are so different. And, and what I've since learned that the French Madonnas are a little bit different than some of the other Madonnas. Like say a lot of the Italian Madonnas who have also gone to vi go visit a few, a number of them. But lot of those were, um, created around the same time by artists who were in the same school of thought and art. And so they look really similar. Mm-hmm. . And so, so, you know, one of the, one of the gifts about the ones that I went to go see is they, they all like even one, just down the street from the other looks vastly d. In terms of when they were created or appeared centuries apart. And so you're allowing the art to infuse your imagination and of course the stories of the people who've loved them to infuse your imagination. And then also at the same time, bringing this big shame or this big crumbling, something just really magical that happens in that mix of desperation, art, , and like, you know? Right, right. Monica: Where, where, where it just suddenly starts to. , it has its way with you in a whole different way. Totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And you know, and I love too, like what's coming up for me in this moment is I'll never forget cuz it actually like this whole unraveling for me around like my patriarchal. Upbringing in a Catholic home and just the different stages of questioning and the different stages. Cuz for a long time I thought, well, maybe it's just the Catholic church. I kept thinking like, you know, like I need a community. Like it's the wrong religion, right? Like or something. Right? But, and I had already experienced like this dissent, this dark night of the soul. But it was so interesting how suddenly like along the path I'd be getting these other archetypes or symbols that would come into my consciousness or my awareness. So you're going to art. Like I immediately kind of think of, you know, some of the things that came to me on my way, like the myth of aana and then suddenly being like, oh my gosh, like that happened to me. You know? And like, how do I not know about this myth? And then also like being on the internet one day. Social media and coming across girl God books. And I was like, why? Like girl, God. You know, like, and just even the language, right? And like you, you just start like the unraveling. But what I'm really, really sensitive to in your book is this Search for the divine. In your own image, an image being a word from imagination. Mm-hmm. , you know, and just being like, don't, you know, like mm-hmm. . Yes. Like we're all searching for the divine in our own image, you know? And that is this journey of like getting it, the, the both and the human and the divine, you know? Oh, . Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . And just really understanding, even if it's just for a glimpse, just a revelation, you know, a momentary revelation that just kinda like helps you remember for a moment, you know, before you kind of go back to life, you know, as normal. It's like longer and longer periods of time that I found at least, where I could just stay embodied, where more and more the world around me became more vibrant, more magical, more. And I just really was reading your work through that same kind of awe of witnessing another woman's journey in a way that really modeled you, continually giving yourself approval and permission to have it look however it needed to look for you. Christena: Mm-hmm. Yeah. and I've thought since then I wish that, I wish that for everyone, you know, I wish, I want everyone to find themselves in the divine. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: including white men. I mean, imagine the world would be like if white men actually knew they were sacred. I know. Like that would change everything. Right? White, white male. God doesn't even affirm their sacredness . No, it does not. Just this trap to keep everyone on this maniacal hamster wheel to try to win approval from this God who's never gonna give approval. Monica: Yeah. I would love for you to go deeper there, . Christena: Yeah. Well, you know, I just, I kind of talk about it a little bit in the book, but you're right, like there's, there's so much more to explore. I, I kind of talk about how white male, God has this tiny, terrifying circle of acceptability, that feels kinda like a pinpoint, but he's kinda tricked us all into thinking that we could possibly be included in that if we just contort ourselves enough. And so if, you know, he has all these rules, But the rules are blurry and they often change. And so it's like you're constantly trying to learn the rules of how do I stay holy? How do I stay good enough? But then there's also this impossible standard of perfection and there's this impossible standard of needless, and that's what it means to be a made in white male God's image to have power over, to be perfect, to be needless, and uh, to perfectly conform to these rules of tradition and consensus and all these things that again, the rules constantly change. And I kind of talk about that with my own experience in the Evangelical church with pretty purity culture, where it was like, it was never really clear what was okay and what wasn't okay sexually. But there was this, a lot of shame. And it's just nobody wins. And there's, I think there's a story I tell in the book where one of my colleagues at Duke who's like, I mean some in Duke school, was pretty, it was an interesting place to be faculty because the vast majority of my colleagues were like world renowned scholars. And so lots and lots and lots of people who, from the outside it looks like they're just winning at life. They're getting all the big grants. They have tenure, they have the, the family situation that looks that, you know, that's, that's valued in our society. They have the esteem, they have the wealth, and. To one, you know, late one evening, just catch one of my most esteemed colleagues and him saying like, I'm still here one o'clock in the morning because I'm afraid that I'm not good enough. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: I was just like, if you're not good enough, no one is, you know, like literally nobody can win at this game. Nobody. And so white male, God just wants us to stay on that hamster wheel. Just trying to be good enough. Yeah. And I'm like, wow. So much of patriarchy would just crumble if men, if white men, if white people knew they were good enough, . Right. It didn't have to keep proving it and proving it by. Having power over other people. Monica: That's right. Proving it over Exactly. Through power. Mm-hmm. , so interesting. Yeah. It's just like fascinating. Christena: And also the fear, right? I mean like so much of white male God's liturgy is fear, and so it's like, I want to make sure that I'm safe, I want, then that means holding onto my money, even if I know someone down the street really needs it. I need to make sure I have more money in my bank account because I'm afraid, or I can't actually advocate for this. Person who experiences oppression in a way that I don't to get the job. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: in like an affirmative action situation. Cause what about me? Right. I'm afraid for me. Right. And so that's constant fear and that disconnect from abundant. That's right. Or scarcity. All scarcity based. And so I have to, I have to hold onto what I think I earned for myself. I have to disconnect from the needs of others. I have to engage in this power over cause that's the only way to survive. Yeah. I have to be better than them or else. Cause I've seen what happens to people who are on the bottom. They become enslaved, they become colonized. We have evidence of what nobody, that's why nobody wants to be a black trans woman in this, in this world, in this like patriarchal world. Because we see how black trans women are treated and there's this desire to keep rising to the top. Whatever. Never getting there. And that's why like, you know, I was on that, I was on that hamster wheel for years and years and years. My parents there, you know, blessed them. They didn't teach us that the world is a plantation and that the goal is to get off the plantation. They taught us the world's a plantation and the best thing for you to do is to become the most powerful negro on the plantation. Right. Play the game and win. Play the game really well and and win. And perfectly . Yeah, and needlessly. I was sent to Phillip Sexter Academy. I went to Dartmouth, I did all the things, you know, I became a big, big, big speaker in the Christian world. I was in all the board rooms. I was invited to all the conferences and one of the things I eventually had to come to terms with was I can contort myself. I mean, I don't think it's possible. To be more like a white man and still be a black woman than I was If you look at my resume, if you look at the places where I was speaking, if you look at the people who had on my speed dial. Mm-hmm. in that world, I did everything you could and yet that wasn't enough. And so the truth is it'll never be enough. No. It'll never be enough. And all that did was almost kill me. Literally. Monica: Right. You can never get enough of the wrong thing. Mm-hmm. , right? Christena: Yeah. And so then to open to the sacred black feminine and to realize, oh, I'm sacred two, my wellness is of the utmost importance. And if God is a black woman, then I don't have to participate in resource scarcity. Cause there's no way that a God who understands my experience, Is gonna let me starve. There's no way that a God who understands my experience wants me to stay on this hamster wheel, stay in these jobs that are sucking the life outta me. If God's a black woman, then I don't have to be God anymore. I don't have to play God, I can actually just be a human. And so it just, it was just a game changer. And I think it can be for everyone potentially. And I talk in the book about how, because I had been socialized to be patriarchal , as soon as I jumped on my liberation journey, I wanted to turn around and whip everybody else into joining that journey. You know? Monica: No, I don't know what you're talking about, . I have no idea. Christena: You know, in the sense of like, you're wrong and you just don't see it, and you're oppressive and you're problematic. And, you know, a lot of that was really reactive. A lot of that was coming out of my trauma, and a lot of it was just really human. I had literally been formed in that way. That's what, that's what spiritual leadership meant to me. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: Spiritual leadership meant whipping other people into shape. Just like I, I was whipping myself into shape and. . It was really powerful for me to realize, okay, but if God's a black woman, it's handled. I actually don't need to turn around and convince everybody else in my family and in my world that this is the journey that they need to be on. Monica: Right. Like, you don't need to do their revelation project for them. Christena: Mm-hmm. . Hmm. Cause I finally had an image of the divine that I could trust. Yes. Oh, that's right. You have their best, best interest at heart too. You're not scary, you're not cruel. You don't require perfection and you're gonna, you, you have your own pathways to connect with them. Yeah. And I think because I had found this like very unique pathway to the divine, I could. She might show up in their lives in a completely different way. And who am I to question that? Monica: Yeah, I loved the part in the book too, where you were, I think with a colleague in the hall and you were dealing with all of the seminary men. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: And you were like, I'm not gonna be able to keep my mouth shut. And she was like, then don't basically, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah, totally help you clean up any messes you make. But you know, it was like, again, like one of those, like you were already kind of giving yourself permission for the mess, but only in certain places and only with certain conversations. Totally. Right. And that's that kind of like that gradual unbecoming that just kind of, it's like, oh, right. Cause that's the other thing that you start recognizing as. Come more and more out of this patriarchal trans is this, is this like how compartmentalized literally everything has become everything in my life. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . It's just astounding. It's astounding. And yes, for my listeners, there's just like, there's God of the gag reflex in her book. There's, there's our Lady of the Sick and the one that cherishes the hot mess. It was just like, was so good because there was just a way that you wrote about each of the black Madonnas and your own experience of unbecoming that just was such a, a sacred rebellion. Christena: Mm. Monica: You know? Christena: Yeah. And I love, you know, I think it was exciting for me to connect with an image of the divine that I felt comfortable to name in these unique ways. You know, like she who thick thighs save lives and our lady of the side eye. And, and it's interesting cuz after that pilgrimage, when I was doing a lot of the work that went into writing the book, one of the things I learned about the Black Madonna is that, you know, there are like 72,000 no names of her Monica: Oh my goodness. Christena: And there's like way more that we don't know. It's just, it's amazing how she seems. She's so different than white male God who kind of shows up and is like, I am who I am, I am, you know, like , Monica: all the double entendres and the like. Right. Like you're just like, what? That didn't even fucking make sense. Christena: Exactly. Right. It's just, and and he kind just shows up in like, Pronounces himself, you know? Monica: Yeah. Christena: I feel like her, that she's really different in that every community has named her differently based on how they relate to her. And so it's like this mutual naming, and that's what I felt invited into is I was meeting these black Madonnas to be like, oh yeah, her official name is our Lady of the Sick, but I'm gonna call her. She, you know, she cherishes our hot mess. And I just felt like I felt permission to do that. And then to realize To co-create. To co-create. Cause that's what she's all about, right? That mutuality. And I love that. Afterwards I realized, oh my gosh, this is actually one of the significant aspects of this spirituality around the Black Madonna for years and years and years. Like for centuries, people have been doing this, and each Black Madonna will have like an official name, and then they'll be like five or six unofficial names too, and. In a town of 300 people, you know, because she did this one miracle. So now we call her the of the miracle. And then when she did this one other miracle and then we call, you know, and it's like Monica: Well, and what that speaks to me of is of endearment, Christena: Endearment, co-creation, imagination, allowing really that affirmation of our own divinity. Yeah. Right? Like I can participate in the naming of god Monica: and the familiar, because there's this way, right, the intimacy. It's just like she is not an off planet God. No. It's like she's mine, she's mm-hmm. . Christena: And then I think the more that I feel bad about her, This real sense of communion, almost like what you hear in Song of Solomon. I am my beloveds and my beloveds is mine. It's not possessive. Right? And so it's, it's real intimacy. It's real union. And then the more I connect with that aspect, the more free I am to release her mm-hmm. and not feel like I need to have the last word on her, or not feel like she's mine and you can't touch her, or you can't have your own experience with her. There's just less of that patriarchal urge to control Right, right. To control even how other people relate to her. It's like, okay, if she's truly mine, she's truly everyone's. Yeah. Yes. Which is just, that says it's a non, it's a very, like, just growing up in such a heteronormative society where partnership is seen in this like really codependent, clingy, possessive way. Like it's just it that it breaks down even that Monica: Oh, yeah. And, and I would go back to that too. Christena: And truly mine. She's truly s yes. Which is the opposite of what I've been taught about intimacy. Monica: Yeah. Say more. Christena: Well, it just seems like if you're in an intimate relationship, there has to be some sort of exclusivity. Mm-hmm. that's a part of that intimacy. Mm-hmm. and I know a lot of my friends who are doing amazing work at that intersection of like heteronormativity and partner culture and all marriage culture, all that kind of stuff. You know, it really, it really relates to this, but like, it's just interesting how much our society is set up so that if you wanna have a person, it has to. This sort of hetero sex partner and otherwise, I mean, we don't really build communities like many of the communities that have surrounded the Black Madonna for centuries, where it's really, it's multi-family and multi-generational, and it's a mix of romantic and platonic. But the, the commitment is always there, that the intimacy is there. We don't value friendships very much in our society. We don't protect friendship in our society. The only thing that's sort of elevated sort. Is marriage, heterosexual marriage. But even that isn't really elevated because it's seen as this possessive gross. Monica: Well, yeah, and I go back to what we were kind of talking about with all of these compartments. And so you were, you were just saying like, your friends are doing all this great work, again, at these intersectional places that are really transcending these compartments or boundaries. And so it's true. You know, when you think about all the compartments, there's a lot of decom compartmentalizing to be going on. Yeah. And so it, you know, I think like this is where finding new language, right? This is where activating and, and this is what gives me great hope about actually these times because without an imagination, You can't, like you, we are seeing, even though it's messy as hell, we're seeing there a whole lot of permission and people who are stepping into their own sovereignty and doing it maybe, but in a different way and in a different compartment. And I love what you said about the Black Madonna because it's, it's not my compartment, not my revelation project, but I honor it. Mm-hmm. , I just think that there's a lot of breaking down. Patriarchy happening. , let's put it that way. Yeah. Christena: And to realize how much of it's ingrained in me, you know? And that the judgements of like what's happening in that spiritual community that can't be real liberation work, you know? Or whereas I think the more I'm invited into the sacred black feminine, the more I can recognize and affirm that beauty is happening, even in spaces that I don't wanna be in anymore. Or, and also that everyone's journey doesn't have to look like mine, doesn't have to be on the pace that mine is. You know, I remember when my book first came out in February, I was pretty disappointed in. I was disappointed cuz we had worked so hard on the publicity side and just so much of our hopes and dreams did not come through even though we had been working for months and months, months. And um, so, you know, I think I felt deflated because of that and I felt deflated that it didn't make a bigger splash that I was expecting in my head. And I remember talking to one of my friends who's a mystic, she's Sufi, a soupy mystic, and she just said, Christena, you have to give it time. How much time did it take for you to go on this journey? Yeah. Like people need time. And that was so, it was so interesting how I, how helpful that was. Cuz I had forgotten, like I was on a years long journey and if God as a black woman had come out in 2010, there's no way in the world I would've picked that book up at Barnes. No. Right. Monica: It would've been like forbidden, threaten. Yeah. I'm thinking more of like growing up. Like that would've been just Christena: Yeah. Oh, I mean, yeah, certainly. Yeah. As a kid, for sure. For sure. Straight theoretical. As an adult it would've been threatening. And I, my friend's invitation to apply a longer lens to the journey was really helpful because now, you know, I get actually quite a bit the, I, the number one bit of hate mail I get is from like white men of course. Um, but the number two is actually black. And one of the things I've noticed is that it comes from black women who have been churched in really conservative church settings and do not have permission to be spiritually imaginative. Mm-hmm. that has not been affirmed and fostered in them. And so I can actually look at that group with compassion and say, I can actually, I can relate to that. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: and I didn't have that permission either, and it took me a really long time to realize that I could give myself that permission. That was a long and messy journey, and everyone's on their own journey. And that's okay. That's okay because God's a black woman and she's got this . Monica: That's right. Well, and it's what I love about what you're pointing to are all of the ways that we can get pulled into the battle. That's not our battle Christena: Totally. Mm-hmm. Monica: And also, you know, kind of like just coming back, like I always talk about like, let me straighten my crown and move on. Right. Like, it's just that permission to kind of like, I'm not going over there. That's not, you know, where I'm gonna put my time and my energy. And Yes, like you said, it's like it's, I trust that they have their own time and their own process, but I also really see how. You know, this is also some of the breaking down that's happening. It's like in the death rows of what is happening there is such a power grab and a control grab happening, and I mean, I've always seen that phenomenon since I've kind of seen it. You can't unsee it when you start seeing women, police other women. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: it's fascinating because it's like, it, it actually feels like, it feels so tragic, you know, to me at so many levels. But it's also just that faith again, that, you know, I. I trust people's timing. It is not my project. It is theirs. This is their life, and I am living mine Christena: Totally. Mm-hmm. . And because my, you know, so much of my career has been around justice and speaking truth to power. I realized when I finally encountered the sacred black feminine, that when I was attached to white male, God, I was essentially living life. And my whole justice vocation was out of a really agnostic place, which I actually, you know, know. No disrespect to agnostics, but I was calling myself a believer. So it's a little weird that I was living out of this agnosticism, which was like, if I don't go to this event and speak the truth, no one will. Mm. If I don't put a stop to this injustice, who's going to, then people will be harmed. Exactly. And so a lot of my work and a lot of my speaking out, speaking out, the truth came from this sense of fear and agnosticism because I couldn't trust white male guy. Right. I couldn't trust that he had it handled or that he was using other channels or that he had his own divine timing. you know, that wasn't violent . Right. And so, but now I'm, so I just realized, gosh, I was essentially an agnostic, even though I was proclaiming that I was a believer, and now I can say, oh, you know what? I don't feel like I have to say anything to that group because I know that she's got it handled. And so then the question can just be, is she inviting me into say something that's Cause then that comes from a different place. Yeah. Not, it comes from love rather than fear. And I'm not attached to the outcome. Monica: Right. Christena: So I can go, participate in whatever's happening, say my peace, say it in a much less judgmental and problematic way, and then walk away saying, I did my work and now what they do with that is their work as opposed to needing a controlled outcome. And if they don't vote this way, then my work didn't matter. Or if they don't change the structure, then my work didn't . You know? Monica: Right. Like that's where that kind of inner discernment becomes really, really important and very. You know that question of like, what is mine to do? And this is where, again, kind of coming back to the body, because I, I truly believe, like we can be up here in our heads about it, right? And that is just always back in the trap, back in the trance. But it's actually the body that resonates usually with where am I to go? What am I to do? Christena: Totally. And how do I feel when I'm in this place? Really? How do I feel when I just think about being in this place, right? If I feel like I'm about to puke just that, the thought of being in this conference, Monica: it's probably a no. Christena: Yeah. Let's, let's be with that, right? Let's, let's, let's be curious about that because maybe it's a No, for sure. I mean, that's just, that's a completely legitimate possibility and maybe it's a, I need to let go of some things. Monica: Yes. Or maybe it's a I'm terrified and Yes. Right. Christena: I'm terrified or I'm. , I have a lot of judgment for that group. Monica: Mm-hmm. Christena: or usually it's one of those two reasons for me. . Yeah. I dunno if you know the engram, but I'm an engram one, so, you know, it's all about judging Yeah. Myself first, but then everybody else, you know, and so it, you know, but it's like, and you know, maybe the answer is I just don't need to be there. Or it, uh, sometimes I, I go through this discernment process and I'm like, yeah, I do have a lot of judgment towards that group, and that's not going away this week, so let's just say no because I'm a human. Yes. And it, I get to be on a journey too, and mys have a deadline and I'm working with it, but I don't see it dissipating. Right. And so let's just be honest and be like, mm, I don't like them, so I'm not gonna go . You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's, that's ok too. I don't need to, I don't need to tweet that or anything, but I can be honest. Right. And just say like, nah, I don't, I don't like them and I don't want to go. Right. And that's okay. And maybe next year I'll feel differently. Monica: Yeah. It's just, again, it's like I no longer have to evangelize. I no longer have to save. I no longer have to do any of that stuff. Christena: Be perfect. Yes. Or pretend like I have it all together or be a martyr. be a martyr. Totally. Mm-hmm. . And I was really, and I, in the book, you know, I talk about the strong, the book I read about being a strong black woman, which is like, you know, just like martyrdom from this sociological perspective where it's like I have to be there for everyone else. I can't have any needs, I can't show any emotion and how much I was socialized into that as a black woman and just being able to say, Oh wow. Like I don't have to be the strong black woman. Oh my God. I can be the best black woman. I actually joined this group of, of women that's called black girl mediocre because black girl magic , cause black girl magic, you know, has, its, there's a beautiful aspect to that, but it can also be a more pressure Monica: Yeah. Christena: To show up perfectly and strong and magical all the time and Excellent. All the time like that. Hashtag black excellence all the time. Exactly. Yes. Exactly. And that's a, that's also the white patriarchy cuz we're trying to contort ourselves into something that will be acceptable to this society rather than showing up at all our messy glory, which, Frankly could get you killed depending on the situation, Monica: right? Christena: But also just how can we find spaces in our lives when safe spaces where we can just show up and be human. Just Monica: show up and be human. Christena: So it's just like, yeah, black girl. And every day on a Slack channel, we have to like share something we did that day was, that was intentionally mediocre. . Monica: I love that. And celebrate it, right? It's just like, celebrate it Christena: and celebrate it. Like I'm connecting with my humanity. Like I'm not at work and nobody's judging me, so why am I in my house feeling like Monica: I have to be perfect? Yes. And you know, and that is just that beautiful place where I always say like, I can breathe there. I can breathe there. Christena: You can breathe there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , I. Uh, Reverend Zenji, earthly Manuel, who's like probably my favorite black Buddhist teacher. Yeah. Um, and she talks a lot about how home is the place where you just get to be a person. Yeah. I just get to be, I, you know, I get to just be a person. Yeah. Monica: It is, it's so powerful. And I mean, I know we're kind of coming up on time. I feel like we're just getting warmed up. It always happens this way, but I just, I would love to, I mean, first of all, I just wanna say thank you so much for this conversation. It's just been like so amazing. And for my listeners, like there's just. I am such a huge fan of storytelling and also like fierce truth and rigor and discernment and the grits, and there was all of that. And so much brilliant storytelling in your book. Like I was just really relating as you were talking about the needs and not allowing, not allowed to have them. And about the broken ankle, which your readers will have to pick up the book if you wanna know more about the broken ankle. But it's like, I feel like every woman has a story like the broken ankle. I really do. It's like we are not allowed to need Christena: mm-hmm. Monica: in patriarchal society. We're not allowed to have needs. And so you end up having all of this isolation and all of these lone wolfs out there who are like walking around on the broken ankles, you know? And the broken ankle is such a metaphor. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: for that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you think about the fact that we are holding it all together on a broken ankle and what we're actually holding together is patriarchy. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: Yeah. Hell let that go. Right? Like, just say yes to the mess. Just let it go. Yeah. And let it fall apart because it is undermining every new creation that, all the imagination. It's just, it becomes like just this really powerful metaphor for me when I think about it in terms of what we're unconsciously doing. Christena: Yeah. And to go and to like, to use metaphors that are really common in the, probably the probably more white, divine feminine world is like, you know, we, we stay trapped in maidenhood if we can't learn to fall apart. Right. Cause that's what helps us become mothers. And like, you're right, we can't create, like we can put, we can be out there doing things. We can be out there having kids. We can be out. Doing things in terms of writing books or whatever, but in term, but connecting with our true creativity doesn't happen unless, and so what you have is like, I mean like the whole like plastic surgery and looking young world is such a good metaphor for that because what you have is all these women who should be coming, who should be mothers and Crohn's who are trapped in maiden hood. That's right. cracking on the inside. Even if on the outside it doesn't look like they're cracking. Yeah. And it's just, it's a tragedy. You know, it's really a tragedy. And I'm 42 now, and I'm like, okay, I have to, I have to move into motherhood. Right. And Monica: that's that mature feminine mm-hmm. . And so I probably didn't share with you, but I am a rights of passage practitioner for, you know, like made into mother work. And so Yes to that. And my listeners have heard me talk about it over and over again. But you know, that rite of passage from what we'll call Wounded Maiden actually right. Is like, Christena: is which is what most people are. Monica: Most people. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I had a kind of a revelation the other day, you know, where I was like walking out of a room and I was like, no, those weren't, you know, like wise women, those were wounded maidens, you know? Christena: Exactly. Everywhere. Monica: Everywhere. And, and it's, you know, this isn't about the shame, it's about really breaking through the, the trance and really just an, uh, invitation to get curious about where we are seeking outside of ourselves for validation and approval. Cuz that, I feel like that's all over everything. Christena: Well, it's a prison. Yeah. It's not about shame, it's just, it's a prison and Yeah. It's a plantation, Monica: you know, like it's, yeah. It's like the plantation. Yeah. Christena: There's more to life than this, but that, but we've been taught that this is life and to make the most of it. That's right. Monica: And to Christena: win at it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We don't even have, I mean, I, I've thought so much while I was writing this book and then going through the process that accompanied this book about Harriet Tubman. Mm-hmm. , who was born on a plantation. Socialize to believe that this was all, that the best thing she could do was try to survive this. That's all that was available to her. As a little black girl, as a young black woman, had no knowledge of life off the plantation. Had no idea what the language was, what the t, what her transferable skills would be, what the terrain was, who was trustworthy and who wasn't. And yet still somehow was willing to step into that unknown. And I really, I'm so curious about that spiritual process for her. Like how did she get to that point where she was just like, I'm just, I don't know what's out there, but it's it's gotta be better than what's here. Yes. And I feel like that's what I had to come to as that wounded made in. Like, I don't know what's out there, but somehow I'm too sacred for this and I don't know how I'm gonna make a living once I start. Speaking out on some of these issues. I don't know how I'm gonna have a family. I don't know where I'm gonna worship. I don't know who my people are gonna be , but somehow it has to be, you know, and getting to that, and again, it's going back to that desperation, that kind of going full circle of I and it and being able to move into that liminal space. Cause there's no way that Harriet Tubman could have been prepared to leave the plantation. The whole system was designed so that she wasn't prepared. So she wasn't empowered, so she didn't have the connections. Right, right. And so the Underground Railroad was something she had to create. It didn't already exist. You know, , that's, were like . And so that's what white patriarchy does. It wants to keep us in this, in this prison. And so, yeah, it's absolutely not about shame, but it's also. I'm too sacred for this. Monica: I'm too sacred for this. I love that, Christena. I love that. And also, you know, just really resonating with this desperation, you know, as an ally, intolerance as an ally, you know, it's like that's when it actually becomes this disguised gift. Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: you know, where you kind of is set off and you can feel desperate and that that gets to belong here. There are certain moments where desperation is actually the path. Mm-hmm. . Christena: Mm-hmm. Monica: So, yeah. Well this is, you know, just been such a rich, rich conversation. And I, the last thing I just wanna end with is just like, you know, I think about God, right? And I think about, you know, all of the ways I've had to unravel and, and, you know, just find the God of my own, the God of my own. And so I guess my question is like, what would you say to our listeners about finding their own God without the ingrained baggage of white male God? Or like the need for it to look a certain way? Christena: Well, I think one thing that was, that has been really helpful for me is reading from the margins. Ooh, okay. So I know while I was on my journey, I was reading a lot of Palestinian Liberation theology. I would actually read like an hour every night before bed. It was almost like my lullaby. And to read things like when Naima Tea talks about Sampson as the first suicide bomber and just really drawing. This unique perspective that affirms the sacredness of even suicide honors that was so powerful. I was reading the Black Trans Prayer book. So just reading a lot of spiritualities outside of my experience, and even particularly from places where I'm the privileged one, like I'm the western American compared to Palestinians. I'm the cis black woman compared to trans black and allowing their gumption to feed my own. And there were parts where I was just like, if a, if this black trans woman that I'm listening to right now who's writing their story can find themselves in the and what's stopping me. And so that has been just really powerful. Monica: Well, there you have it then. Yes. Get outside the margins. It's just so wonderful. Thank you. Thank you again for everything you shared today. Thank you for asking all of these. Gritty, tough questions. Thank you for your gumption, your audacity, your brilliance. Thank you for daring to be so shiny. And so, you know, I think too, like women just need to just. So permissioned, you know, like thank you for that. Christena: Thanks. It's an honor to be here. Monica: Thank you. It's an honor to have you. And for our listeners, I will of course be sure to put all of Dr. Cleveland's links and suggestions in the show notes. And until next time, more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.