163 Celene
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast.

Today I'm with author Celene Lillie and. . I want to preface this episode by first and foremost saying how honored I am to be joined by Celene because she holds a piece of this puzzle for me growing up. Many of you who listened to this podcast have heard me speak over and over again about being kind of microdosed, these stories that can often entrance us into this state of unworthiness as women.

And the story of Eve was a very specific story for me in my childhood that kind of like haunted me and Eve became this archetype that just, you know, really had me feel a number of different things and. as I kind of continued to grow up, I kind of disassociated from the story as I disassociated from myself, which gets really interesting.

You'll see as this particular episode progresses, and I think you're gonna really, really enjoy this conversation. But before we begin, I also want to let you know that this particular conversation will also include a conversation about sexual violence. So I think it's really important to mention that because, you know, I just, I trust that you will take care of yourself accordingly, but it is obviously a subject and an experience that many women have had to tangle with on a number of different levels. So I think it's very important that I mention it here and of course for our male listeners as well, cuz it's certainly not an experience that is exclusive to only women. So now I wanna give you a little bit of background on Celene Lillie.

So Celene is a lecturer in religious studies at the University of Colorado Boulder. She's an adjunct professor at the University of Oklahoma and the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, and the Dean of the Western Institute's Forthcoming Academy, which will launch this fall. Her scholarly work focuses on the New Testament, the nag, Hammadi, codis, and other early literature of the Jesus movement with a particular interest in gender and violence.

She's the author of The Rape of Eve, the Transformation of Roman Ideology in three early Retellings of Genesis, and it's fascinating. So hang in there. And also, she's the co-author. of the Thunder Perfect mind. And if you don't know about the Thunder Perfect Mind, you'll learn more in this episode. So I'm so thrilled to have her.

And please join me in welcoming Celene Lillie. Hi Celene. 

Celene: Hi Monica. Thanks so much for having me today. It's really great to be here. 

Monica: Yeah, my goodness. And I'm just so, like this subject, I, I wanna start off by saying that, you know, to repeat at what you probably heard as I introduced, I, I don't think I'm alone in saying that this story of Eve has really kind of done a number on so many women and men in kind of this gender disparity.

And so I just thought I'd start by first asking you a little bit about your own upbringing and how Eve became somebody and, and an archetype that you started to want to study. 

Celene: Oh, wow. Eve that is, it's such a big question. She's such a big figure that looms particularly in Western society. I did grow up in a Christian context and you know, my earliest, my earliest memories of Eve, although I, I did have, I think I was lucky that I did have some examples in women pastors and other folks when I was younger who kind of said, you know, maybe we need to think about this story in different ways.

But I often, when I was thinking about Eve, you know, the stories that we all hear. She's bad, she's evil. She gets tempted by Satan. One of the ones that I love is, which I'm sure no one in your audience has ever heard this before. She's too much. You know, the, so all of these things that were not supposed to be, she brings sexual sin into the world.

She brings sin into the world. It's her fault that everything bad that has happened in Hu humanity in the history of humanity is because of Eve and then later, you know, reading some of these other early, you know, the early church fathers where these weren't necessarily things that I heard quoted when I was younger, but their ideas, I could feel the way that they had seeped in, not only into Eve's story, but into my own as well.

Like I think about, there's an early church father whose name is Tratulium and he's from the second century and he. He's tell it's a treatise that he's giving, telling women on how they're supposed to dress. Um, but in the middle of it, he's like, don't you all know that you're an eve? And he basically calls women the devil's Gateway and says that women are the reason that Jesus needed to die on the cross to save us.

I mean, it is first stuff. And all of those messages, I will just say for myself, um, those were the messages that I really came into, into my exploration of Eve with . 

Monica: I lo and I just have to laugh because I, and, and I'm so grateful I can laugh finally. Right? Because there was a time in my life where this just really like, just bothered me, right?

Like it really just ha, I love the word that you used, seeped. Like her story seeped into my story because there's this way that. When we only have two, write like a couple of archetypes in our whole cosmology in certain religions, that we tend to look at those as the options, that those seem to be the only representation.

And that somehow when you've heard them enough elements of them become brew, you know that we start to actually internalize the messages that somehow anything about us that is too much, right? That is sexually liberated or not. Anything that has to do with eroticism, anything that has to do with sin.

It's like, and this is where the laughter comes in, is that somehow women have. literally brought this curse upon all of humanity. I mean, the absurdity, I, I, I could just like, you know, and, but, but here's the other piece of it is as I started to reveal more and more, I started understanding that there were only.

Certain narratives, certain interpretations that were ever told or given and by design and for the exact purpose of what those purposes served, which was to actually subjugate silence, shame, and keep women in their place. And when you understand and you start to recognize that there are actually other stories, interpretations, and cosmologies that are ancient about this particular archetype, you realize like, wait a minute.

There's this whole other aspect to the story that not only did I not hear, but that also starts to make other realizations and revelations possible that then expand a once totally contracted way of seeing things. 

Celene: I love this. And I wanna pick up on just, it's a little bit to the side, but it's so central to what you're saying, particularly in terms of thinking about Eve and thinking about the way that these stories box us in.

And so, you know, I am a historian of, of early Christianity, so this is the place that I go. But so we get this bism between Eve and then the Virgin Mary, and so we're, so we're good or we're bad and I don't know about you, but I spent so much, and still it's the thing that I try and undo within myself that I'm either a good girl or a bad, bad girl.

One would think at middle age that maybe I would've gotten over this at this point, but it's this constant, and it's the reason why I laugh too, is that it's like, okay, so how can we be gentle with ourselves and say, okay, so here we are and how do we let in these other stories as well? But this binarism of the good and the bad, I can only be one thing or the other instead of realizing, which I think this story really helped me to do through the years that I worked on it and continue to work on it.

But to look at these complexities and look at all of the different positionalities that each one of us within our own being can hold and this other, these other stories of eve. Really helped to shift and open up and for me have really helped to heal that space as well. Beyond the binary, which when we, if we get a chance to talk about thunder a little bit, I think that, You know, that text, that poem really does that work as well of what it means to be able to hold all of this complexity and own it and relish it and celebrate it within our own beings.

Monica: Yeah. Celene, I, yes to that. And I wanna underscore this because I often talk about a concept I call the sacred and on this show, and I call it sacred because it is kind of the trans buster when we allow ourselves to be messy and magnificent, that those things get to stand together. That I can be, you know, make mistakes and be brilliant.

That I can, that all of these things, I can be sensual and these other aspects of myself that I can and, and, and for as long as I need to, that I don't have to apologize for any of it. That I, that in the, and is the approval, is the self approval and the self-love. 

Celene: I love that so much. And just this piece too of in an, you know, eve story is messy all over the place, whether it's interpretations or it presently or in the past, but that it's actually through this messiness for me that I have been able to feel that, as you say, magnificence, it's the place where the creativity comes from.

It's the place where the compassion comes from. There's so much by not pushing away that messiness and using the sacred, and I love that the sacred and that's really juicy of really thinking about, you know, what does it, what does it mean to really claim. all of these things and not abandon any of them.

Monica: Yes. Amen. . Amen. Yes. Yes. And so I, I wanna immediately kind of get curious about when you discovered that there were other stories, that there were other interpretations, and then if you could just to set a little bit of context for our listeners, because I think there's a lot to just kind of, even just position before we kind of then scale this conversation.

Celene: So I started, so I grew up in a, in a Christian household, in a fairly progressive Christian household and. Eventually, uh, in my, in my teen years, like so many folks did a lot of exploration and, uh, left Christianity for a long time. And in my mid twenties, it was actually after September 11th, listening to a lot of the rhetoric around, which is kind of wild thinking that we're at the 20th anniversary right now of the Iraq War.

So this would've been about 20 years ago for me of, uh, just the rhetoric around what was happening in Iraq, in the Middle East, the axis of evil language, and then noticing that there would be this like religious language on the side. that would kind of pull at me and getting curious about it and really realizing that this was coming from Christian traditions.

And I started to ask, you know, is this really what Christianity is all about? You know, this is the religion that I grew up in. I was playing, I was kind of exploring Buddhism at the time too. And Tich Nat Han in the Dai Lama both have said, you know, you were comically born into these religious traditions if you can't go back and mine them for, for their gems.

And there was something about that that I really took to. So I started exploring, I started exploring Christianity again. Um, I was working at a large independent bookstore and I would often pretend I was shelving books in the Christianity section because I was worried that somebody would 

Monica: I love you.

Celene: Me, reading these books, and of course what did I discover back there? But the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas. So two of these texts from nama and I thought, you know, if this is what's going on here, maybe, maybe, maybe I can, maybe I can stretch myself and start to explore Christianity again. And so, you know, like any good person who has no clue what they're doing and had gotten a psych degree from a Buddhist university, I was like, I'm just gonna apply to divinity schools.

I have no clue what I'm doing. I just decided to apply to divinity schools and I think, I thought I was probably gonna be a pastor. and it turned out my first New Testament professor was really interested in NAMA and I thought, oh, could I actually study this? And he kind of said yes, and it turned into a PhD.

And so this is just to say, so this is one of kind of my threads moving through this in the midst of this. One of the things that I work on kind of on a scholarly level, which is a little bit controversial with some folks, is that one of the things that the group of scholars I work with actually does is deconstruct the category of mysticism.

And I won't go into that totally in depth, but just to say, what we found is that when people start talking about orthodoxy agnosticism, it's really about orthodoxy and heresy. And so it's these two, again, it's a binary and these two positions that are opposed to one another, but all of these texts are coming about at a time.

When Christianity is not a settled thing, it's very complicated. It's very diverse, and so I started getting really interested in. What can we learn about the creativity of these folks who are using this early Jesus story in all of these multiple ways that sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. If you all notice this mirror is kind of the o my own way of, of working with my own complicated self.

In this, there's this mirror between my scholarship and moving from the binary to the more complex and, uh, in myself in my work. And one of the things that was kind of interesting about Nas theism is that it's backbone. Um, so the backbone of kind of Gnostic story where it's about these an evil God of the Hebrew Bible.

I don't believe this by the way. This is just kind of how this story of narcissism goes. The evil, the evil ruler of the world who's associated with the Hebrew Bible, it's. Binary and dualistic. It's material hating. It's misogynistic, it's women hating, and eve brings sexual sin into the world. It's based on these three stories that I work on.

And when I started getting into the stories and started actually unpacking the Coptic in them, I was like, oh, no, no. Here we go again. I'm very grateful for these academic ancestors whose shoulders I am able to stand on, but they, I think inadvertently reproduced the very same stories in and the very same interpretations in relating to these stories.

And when I got in there, that is not what I found was going on at all. 

Monica: So hold up. When you say, when I got in there, this is not what was going on at all. Is that because you were going back to these ancient texts, and again, these ancient texts are up for interpretation and they interpreted it the same way, but you saw other ways of interpreting that ancient language and those ancient stories that had not yet kind of been surfaced or looked at and discussed.

And then in creating kind of these alternative ways of interpreting these ancient texts, my understanding is you've got a whole lot of other folks very interested in seeing what you were seeing. . 

Celene: Yeah. So that, that really is it. And you know, and again, I just, I wanna be so careful about this because we do this all the time.

As, as you talk about, we grow up in, in a culture, the way we get educated, whether it's in elementary school or through our religious communities, or in college or in doctoral, you know, in doctoral studies, there are ways in which, you know, we've done things in the West for years and years and years and years, and sometimes we can't see the water that we're swimming in and don't realize that we have very particular lenses that are going on and that really filter what we're seeing.

And so I do think, you know, part of it just. Part of it's a generational thing. Part of it was having really amazing mentors and part of it is, you know, which maybe one day I'll talk about this someplace else, but, you know, part of it I think is also just to say all of the unique ways in which each one of us, no matter who we are, interface with certain materials, each one of us has, has something to bring to the table.

I tell this to my students all the time, don't be afraid of your voice, even though I've been studying this for 20 plus years. You will see something because of who you are and how your life has shaped you, that it is impossible for me to see. And I think, you know, so it was a c you know, it was part of it being my wonderful colleagues at the time, friends who I talked about with th these questions with, um, so just to say like everything else, it takes this really interactive community and I think the way it intersects with our own lives and all of a sudden things start to pop.

So, , yes. And 

Monica: well, yes. Okay. I love this because what I'm hearing you do is honor those scholars who've come before you, and that their interpretations are not to be invalidated. There's this and there's this sacred, and where we're able to kind of look at these various interpretations and be grateful that we have multiple interpretations.

And my goal in bringing you here to talk about these other interpretations is because there's an opportunity with interpretation. to choose a more empowering one. And when we have been indoctrinated in ways that we don't even know we've been indoctrinated, and this is a thing, right? Because I talk about the trans of unworthiness.

It's a way of being indoctrinated as a woman to your place in the world, and you don't even know that you don't. . So it's all this confusing language, but the bottom line is because it's the water we swim in, we would never call it water even. Right? Because, so it's, it's this very kind of like insidious way, I call it being microdosed, these series of messages that before you know it, you've just internalized this story that women are this way, that this is our lot in life, that this is our place in the world, and it's even, they even say it in the Bible.

So it's like, I'm, all I'm saying is like, these are all of these microdosed messages that over time accumulate and accumulate into a problematic way of being in the world. Because I say that these stories have actually not served women. in that for as long as this trance of unworthiness is allowed to kind of continue to be the, the veneer, you know, kind of, that keeps us from really experiencing the fullness of our lives that keeps us in check from really being self-expressed because we think we're too much or not enough binary.

Right? It's where we, the trans of unworthiness is where we forget the sacred, and it's where we become imprisoned. And Dr. Valerie Rein talks about this, that when, you know we are groomed or you know, enculturated through patriarchy, we become imprisoned by the voices or the heads of patriarchy that we then internalize and those become the prison guards that keep us in line.

Monica, you shouldn't have said that, Monica. You shouldn't have done that. Don't put that out there unless it's perfect. Right? You're not allowed to make mistakes. Keep your nose to the grindstone. Fake it till you make it. All the voices of the patriarchy that taught me that I could, that I was too much too dramatic.

Monica, too dramatic, right? So if we don't know, and, and here's where I think the these ancient stories become so powerful is because if we don't know that there were other interpretations, other mythologies, other stories from which to draw from, We, I, I always say like, if we can't see it, we can't be it.

But also there's this way that stories really myth becomes how we make sense of our lives and stories are what we live in and what we swim in. I think we're unaware often of this limiting story that we've been microdosed that then becomes who we are. 

Celene: And I think one of the coolest things about these stories is that I think they noticed almost 2000 years ago, the very things that you're talking about, how both men and women and you know, anybody on the gender spectrum, there are multiple genders sometimes in these stories.

There's lots of interesting stuff, but are imprisoned by the violent structures of patriarchy. That's exactly what these stories are talking about and trying to think about what does it look like to have a different narrative around this. But they name that very. Thing in the story through these structures with the rulers and the violence that they do, and also the way in which these divine women in all kinds of different divine women come in and are, and are really the ones who try and bring salvation to humanity.

But it's not a salvation from sin, but it's a salvation from these structures that are trying to keep them imprisoned. 

Monica: I'm gonna just repeat that. It's not a salvation from sin. It's a salvation from the structures that create this limiting prison, like these gender binaries. And by the way, I think it was the Talmud Talmud.

Am I saying it correctly that Yeah. The Tal that I was reading the other day has eight different genders. 

Celene: Yeah, there was an amazing, I'll see if I can throw you a link to it. There was an amazing, uh, New York Times op-ed on this over the weekend too, about all of the multiple genders that are in the Talmud.

Absolutely amazing stuff. Ancient world. They had it going on, y'all.

Monica: They had it going on, so, yeah. So, okay, so now I'm gonna pretend I'm five years old or six and you explain to me and, and our listeners just like, just set a context for kind of how, I think we all know the original story of Eve, but then anything that you can do to kind of just fill out the, the picture here so that we can talk about 

Celene: Yeah, so, so this story, and I'm probably gonna paraphrase some things in it, and there are a couple things that I'm gonna quote because they're so awesome that.

That I feel like they, they're just worthy of kind of quoting, but just to say, so this is, so what, how we wanna think about this is somebody probably sometime during the second century, so, you know, close to 2000 years ago, they're using the Adam and Eve story as a resource. So there are things that are similar to the one that, that some of you may know from the Bible, and then it really turns a whole bunch of other things on their head.

And just so that you all know, and I can talk more about this and I can also link you up with some other things where I talk about this, but these rulers of the world who are kind of semi divine being. I really think that these are supposed to be the Roman Emperor. So I think this is a whole political critique of the Roman Empire and the way that it uses violence.

And the Roman Empire was a, an unbelievably patriarchal society. The patriarchal household was kind of the backbone of society, wri large, and the empire was mapped onto this patriarchal system. So we just wanna think, you know, a lot of our patriarchal roots really come from the Roman Empire. And so this really is to, is what I think some of this context is for what's happening.

And I think these folks are a very aware of how people are, are interpreting the Eve story, and they really do not think the subordination of women and humanity as part of the divine plan. So just to kind of say that from the outset as I go through so that you can kind of look for these parts in it.

But so basically how the story starts is that there's this divine realm that's absolutely perfect and it's really a realm of mutuality and concord and harmony. So just this amazing place and then there's this rupture that occurs. and through this rupture the world, the material world we know is born.

And there's this chief ruler who's in charge of it. And he thinks he's God. Much like the, much like the emperors and rulers of the time, they fashion themselves as God. And so he declares to all of his minions and one of the techs actually calls them these people, his government. He says, I am God. And no other exists besides.

And his words end up reverberating throughout the cosmos, and this voice comes from the divine realm. And disputes him is like, no, you are not. You're wrong. And the chief ruler and all of the people underneath him, all of these beings underneath him are really shaken by this. But they're also jealous of this voice because it has a power that they can't control.

And this power, by telling them they're not God, both usurps and demotes them. So it takes their place and it tells them they, they're lesser than they are. So they decide that they need to entrap and control this power, which is beyond them. So they decide to create a human being to seduce it. And this is how Adam gets created in this story.

and these rulers then puff and puff, but they can't make Adam come alive. And so he's just from like lying on the ground and he can't move. 

Monica: So they make an an inert avatar basically. It's like almost like a Frankenstein story where there's this being but no life in it yet until the electricity, so to speak.

Okay.

Celene: Exactly, exactly. And so the divine realm sees this, this human on the ground and they call the the human Adam. But just so that folks know in the Hebrew, a dom is just the word for a human being. So you know, it's just is the human who's on the ground. And so wisdom or Sophia sends down her daughter life to help Adam.

And so her hope is that together. So she's coming up with another plan that's in opposition to the rulers plan so that they can actually. Overcome the rulers of the world. And so these divine women send their breath, their breath, their spirit into Adam, and with their breath, he's given us soul, but he still can't stand up.

So life who then we're told is also called Eve, says Adam, live a rise from the ground. And then this is a quote from the text, it says, and Eve's word became a work. So just like the God in Genesis whose word is efficacious fear, it's Eve's word that actually brings things into being so cool. 

Monica: Okay. Do people get emotional?

Is this normal? 

Celene: Yeah. Because it's so different than anything. And I get it. Just you saying that. I get emotional about it because it's so different. Than anything we ever heard. And even if you grow up in, I think for me, in more inclusive, what people might frame as more inclusive brands of Christianity, these messages about the male God, the male authority, all of this is so ubiquitous that you don't even realize how deeply it's in your body until, for me starting to see stories like this and thinking, oh my God, I can't believe somebody said something else and I can't believe they said it 2000 years ago, and no one ever told me.

Monica: Right. Yeah. Right. Like I'm, I'm actually like present, like to this, these full body chills as you're saying the words. And now I know why you wanted to read the words and like, almost like a, um, this deep understanding of what it is to be included, what it is to have this. Me too. Like I can too. Like we, that, that there's always been this deep wound of exclusion.

And I even had my friend Monet Chilson, who's the author of a book, and I'm now gonna forget the actual name of the book. It's, um, Sophia Rising. She actually enumerates how many times him, his, and he are in the Bible, and how much those words are spoken as opposed to her, hers or her, and. Hers, her, whatever.

Right? Like that actually, the representation is so askew that you so rarely heard it, that that also was part of that microdosing of the trans of unworthiness, especially as it related to the possessive, that there was actually this sense of like just feeling so deeply excluded from anything worthy or important.

And I think so many women feel that kind of pain and have no language for it. And so I just wanna bring that into the space. . 

Celene: Yeah. And just, you know, on top of that, thinking about translation, you know, one of the things too, on top of all of those, you know, he, him and his. are, are you in English? We don't have a distinction between the singular and the plural, so I can't tell you how many times then I would hear you and think they're talking about men instead of realizing that it's No, it's all y'all that's being talked about all the time.

And so there are these multiple ways in translation where we just miss what's happening because of the way in which English works and then some of the ways in which these ancient languages work and the translation comes in. And so like, here's one of these moments too. To have this constellation of divine beings of wisdom and eve and life in the divine realm is just, it is radically different from the imagination of.

Anything really that comes out of the Bible? 

Monica: Anything. Anything? Okay. So continue . 

Celene: So and so, just to say, um, just to kind of let listeners know, this is, this is, we're about to kind of turn toward this very, very violent scene. Um, it's very graphic. If I didn't think it was so important, I would not have spent so many years working on this.

But please, again, um, as Monica said, uh, we trust you to take care of yourselves with us. So please, please do so. Um, so after Eve says these words, um, Adam rises and he opens his eyes and he sees Eve. And then we get this quote from the Hebrew, uh, you will be called mother of the living for you have given me life.

So here it's really in all ways that she's the one that's given him life here. So of course the rulers then see Eve talking to Adam and become jealous of her power. and they make this plan and basically say, um, we're gonna rape her so that she can't return to the divine realm. That there's this, so already we see this link between sexual violence and being defiled or stained in this old way of thinking that we've inherited through patriarchy, 

Monica: through a ruler's way.

I just wanna mm-hmm. kind of also 

Celene: Yeah.

Monica: Make the distinction through. Yeah. This ruler, hierarchical way of thinking about what might separate you. creating this separation, looking to actually create this separation right from the beginning. 

Celene: Right from the beginning, so that it seems like it's naturalized.

So it's just natural to everyone to feel this way. And where then again, we're swimming in it and we can't even see that something else is possible because it's been, it's been naturalized by these stories, by the way, we've been treated by the way that we've internalized these messages from the outer society.

So then they say, so after this, so she can't return to the divine realm because of this defilement. And then they say, and then the children, she bears will be subject to us. So it's not just the subjugation of her, but it's the subjugation of the progeny that come from, from this violence. And then they say, but let's not tell Adam for, he isn't like us.

Let's, and teach him in his stupor. So this is where they put the veil on him and he goes into that ecstatic space, which we also get in the Bible that she came. So they're gonna tell him a story that she came from his rib, so that the woman might be subject to him and he may be lured over her. So the whole thing about women coming from men and being the separate in, in this story, basically it's, it's this lie to keep women subjugated in this power structure with the rulers at top than the men, than women underneath.

And all of those subordinated to the rulers. Um, yeah, 

Monica: Again, I just wanna relish in the fact that this is an ancient story. 

Celene: Yeah.

Monica: And I mean, , this is, this is one of those moments, Celene, where I also say like, you cannot make this shit up. You cannot make this shit up because the relevancy for even what we deal with to this day is so profound. There's so much here. So yeah, continue. 

Celene: So, Eve, Eve, because she's divine, knows their plot, so she knows what's gonna happen and she actually laughs at the, at the rulers and she stratifies them then.

and she enters into and becomes the tree of knowledge and leaves what they call her likeness or her shadow behind. So this is this piece where there is this actual, it's in a very trick story way here, but this moment of dissociation where her spirit leaves her body right before this violation. But just to notice too, she's gone into and become the tree of knowledge.

This thing that ends up being bad when we read it in the Bible. So this is part of Eve. And so then thinking that this shadow was the true eve, um, the text says that the rulers acted cruelly. They entered her and possessed her and raped her. They were wicked. They defiled her in abominable. And then they defiled the seal of her voice, which had declared they were not gods.

So just to make a note there about the way that this voice, that spoke truth itself is also part of this violation, and again, I think this is something that so many people, women, folks in marginalized positions, folks that have been violated, just this experience that we know from trauma theory is really a mark of this type of violation.

The not being able to speak afterwards, not being allowed to speak afterwards. So then one of the interesting things that one of the texts talk talks about, and I do think this is because of how marriage looks in the ancient world, but actually says that this is the beginning of marital inter. That so that this subjugation is actually, this patriarchal subjugation is baked kind of into every part of the system in the Roman world, which I also think, again, things look different now in certain ways, but I think we can also notice the way in which these messages have really pulled through over o over time, over these millennia since this text was written.

But then of course, what the text says is that the rulers made a mistake and they didn't actually understand that they had def filed their own body. So here's a place where I think the text is really saying something about that the violence that we do to others actually comes back onto us. That it's, it, I think this is a part of this cyclical nature of violence, but this, this real, they're so caught up.

In this need for power and control, they don't actually see the landscape of what is in front of them. And so then this is the moment that the rulers then put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. And just like the story and Genesis, they're told that they can eat of any tree in the garden, but if they eat from the tree of knowledge that they're going to die.

So then what the text says is that the wisest of creatures, the serpent, a creature of the divine realm, comes to Eve and says, did they tell you not to eat from the tree of knowledge? And then Eve replies not he's, he not only said, don't eat from it, but don't touch it, or you'll die. And so then the serpent says to Eve, don't be afraid.

In your death, you all will not die. But when you eat, your minds will become sober and you will know the difference that exists between evil humans and good. He said this to you in jealousy so that you wouldn't eat from it. And so then Eve has confidence in these words from the serpent. Who I just wanna remind folks is from the divine realm and from so from this realm that Eve herself is from.

And so she takes some of the fruit from the tree and which again, the Divine Eve went into and became. So she takes the piece of herself that is split off through the fruit and eats it, and then she gives some of the fruit to Adam and he eats it too. And then the text says that their minds become open.

And when they ate the light of knowledge and light them, When they became sober, they recognized each other and loved each other and knew that the rulers were like beasts and loathed them. And then basically at this point, through their love and per partnership, eve births children who become the saviors of humanity, who deliver the people from the subjugation of these worldly rulers, but again, I mean this total opposite of what we see happening in the story of Genesis. There are no curses. Instead here, there is enlightenment and partnership and not one person lording over. You know, Adam is not in charge of Eden of Eve. He's not the one who's the Lord over her. Instead, it's this equal partnership that comes through this eating of the fruit that actually is a piece of Eve.

And I also just to say, there's so much that I could say about this, but also just to name the fact that it's this physical act of ingestion, of being able to actually eat and ingest and metabolize the piece that was split off. And that's the thing that brings about enlightening enlightenment and awakening.

Monica: Again, finding myself getting so emotional as I listened to this, I, I, it's like there's also. so much here for me in terms of just even going back to the part of the story, Celene, where

she knows what their plan planning on doing. And to me this speaks of intuition as also being from the divine realm. And at that point she's embodied, she's, it's not, it's her intuition that actually has her disassociate in order so that her spirit is, is she's able to. know that she's not, what happens to her?

Yeah. Because she go, she basically goes into the tree and witnesses. Now what is done to her material form. And I can't help but make the parallel here that you hear this all the time from survivors of sexual violence that they disassociate and they literally can almost see what's happening from a distance.

And

all of us become fractured and all of us are violated in one way or another. And some of us so much more. than others. I never wanna minimize or invalidate, and this part about how she remembers herself, how she ingests and remembers the part of herself that is sacred, the part that they tried to cast out, or that they tried to separate her from her divinity by doing to her.

I mean, there's so much right in that that I look at as parallel in a patriarchal world that also in addition to kind of fooling men, having the veil in a lot of ways over men's eyes in this seduction of power over that. actually as women, remember who they really are, their divinity. This is where this story so segues and intersects so beautifully with the story that Joanna Kujawa helped me understand, which initiates men into their divinity.

So there's this other part of the story that I just got to, you know, tell in one of these podcast episodes. Uh, and for our listeners, I'll be sure to link that episode so that you can also kind of understand that that's a piece of this. But it's like, it's, it's just so fascinating, right? It's just like, I, I almost just am you, you see how kind of, there's so much that gets.

Revealed and felt right. It's like that remembering allows us to come back and re-inhabit ourselves and kind of straighten our crown.

And

in that remembering is also the permission

to be human and imperfect to, and even just understanding that this is a messy, complex story. Yeah. Is is so prophetic and beautiful and symbolic as well, that there's just no part of Eve's story that isn't kind of this messy, complicated, hard to hear. Beautiful to listen to, right? The paradox is all here and yeah, and just, I'm really struck as well as I know you are by

this eating of the fruit, this tree of knowledge that actually is this separated self.

It's like so beautiful. 

Celene: It's so, I mean, I think, you know, when I think about

the history of kind of contemporary.

Psychological engagement with trauma, you know, which really started kind of with Freud in the late 19th century. So we have, you know, just a little over a hundred years of this and really not understanding until, I mean, it was really the 1970s before the first book was written about women and really thinking about experiences of sexual violence.

And one of the things that I think is so profound about this is just these moves of dissociation and reintegration that we hear in from psychology that these folks somehow, 2000 years ago are writing about this experience is just, just, it's ju it is so unbelievably moving to me. I wish I had words to actually say how I feel about it because I, I just, I just don't, the depth of how I feel when I think about.

This story and the people who wrote then, and I think my

dismay is the word that's coming to mind, but it's not really quite that either. Um, it's so much more than that. It has so much more depth of feeling. But that we can still relate to this story unfortunately, so much today is, is heart wrenching and . And the thing about the, and and this thing about this story is that it's the only story really that I found in the ancient world where Eve is actually not shamed.

That the, that the fault and blame for the acts of violence lay with the perpetrators and not the victim. And where there's not an erasure or a thinking that. . Oh, we're just not, we're gonna just pretend this never happened. None of that exists in this story. 

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

Celene: But it's about this possibility for movement and healing, no matter how fractured it is.

And the possibility about doing this in relationship. And I think, which I think it's so important that you brought this in too, that it's not, you know, it's not men that are the problem. 

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Celene: it's the patriarchy that's the issue. And that everybody loses, everybody loses in that system. And Adam becomes this other image for what's possible.

Even in the midst of this story, which is just, you know, these layers upon layers of. Of meaning that that these folks, again, 2000 years ago managed to put into this pippy retelling, so creatively using these tools that were at their disposal to transform and do something new with them. 

Monica: Yeah, I mean, it's like mind blown.

I also write like the rulers in that story are the patriarchy in this story. It's, it's the same like it's this, I mean, the story is relevant through that lens and many others as you're so beautifully pointing to, because unfortunately, this is still something that we are resolving today, and I truly believe that.

we're at a time, and this is where I turned to you, and I'm like, D like, hello. Did you know when you, when, when was the moment that you were like, oh my God, like you, that your interpretation led you to make these new connections where you saw this new revelation where you, like, w was there a moment where you didn't even know if you could freaking contain or explain what it was that you were seeing?

Like I think I would've had a moment of like pure implosion 

Celene: When I started, when I started looking at these texts. And just to say too, you know, I had a, one of my, one of my professors. Brigitta Call. And another one of her students, Devina Lopez, were doing this work that was particularly around kind of Roman imagery of sexual violence, kind of came into play with this.

And so I was kind of steeped in this, and all of a sudden I'm reading these texts and retrans them, and I still can remember these moments. One of them was on a train going out to New Jersey, with a colleague of mine, a dear colleague of mine, Maya. And, uh, we did our PhDs together and we're talking, and all of a sudden this hitting me in waves.

And I knew in that moment, I was like, this is what I'm gonna like, and this is the weirdest thing. And I did, I think I actually left this in my, in my acknowledgements or maybe at the beginning of my book, but I, I actually say this like. I feel like these texts, I didn't pick them. They chose me and they just wouldn't let me go.

And I still remember and I just knew, I was like, this is what I'm gonna work on. Like this is what, this is what I'm gonna work on. And I was in my coursework still. It was very early on in my PhD, and I just, I knew from that point on that this is, I just knew that this story had to be told that people needed to have access to access to this story.

And I think not, you know, it, the interesting thing to me is that, uh, my, my work schedule, as you could hear from all of my jobs, I, I have a lot of jobs. I work all the time. I do have some new things that I'd like to be working on. And yet, These years after I've published the book, I started working on this years ago.

I've been lecturing on this and talking about it for years, and it's still the thing that I feel I, it's the place where I just know this isn't about me. There is something about this story, and it is persistent. And when anyone hears about it like you did, I mean, I just think about even the synchronicities, Monica, for you to hear about my work on this story that it is just so, it's just so beyond me.

And I just think Eve, whatever that archetype of Eve is, she wants the story out there. She needs it to be heard. But yeah, I mean, it, it is still surprising to me, you know, 15 plus years later that, and it, it's amazing to me that every time I talk about it, it just, it moves me and I can feel those feelings of that first moment of just both.

That it was like everything shattered, but in the best way. 

Monica: Well, I say that it's, it's like a trans disruptor in the biggest way, and I also see

so many other impossible, exquisite coincidences with other stories that I feel like I've been exposed to and I've. , my listeners have heard me oftentimes bring Lynn twist into many, many, many podcast episodes because she has coined this century, the Sophia Century, the century of wisdom, the, and you know, there's so many kind of prophecies about this being, whether it's the prophecy of the Sixth Sun, that kind of, this new sun that unlocks these DNA codes that allow us to kind of see what we could not see up until this time of the Sixth Sun, that indigenous prophecies call it the time of the eagle in the condor, the time when the ancient world and the modern world that the bridge gets created between them.

You know, that this is a time where Paul Levy talks about wetico, you know, and all of these ways that we. are reaching a tipping point in our consciousness so that we have an opportunity to actually Adam and Eve to come back together in unity so that we don't create another six. Sixth level extinction, right?

A, a sixth extinction for humanity. That there have been these, and once again, the bird of humanity and the prophecy of the right ring being overly extended, that of the ma masculine and that now it's the time of the feminine where the feminine actually is arising or returning to meet the rising masculine.

And that when that wing is strengthened, that the bird of humanity will stop flying in circles and be able to soar, right? Like that. All of these prophecies come into this time period where we are awakening as we have never awakened before. And I say that your story is part of that awakening because stories are.

I mean, this is what makes us both divine and human. The storytelling capability you see, I think that it's the stories, our capacity to create from these words that conjure, that can cast spells, and that spell can be a spell of unworthiness or it can be a spell of exactly the opposite. And so blessings on this.

Just incredible work that you've done to bring this story to so many. And yeah, it's just like, I think a really powerful and. beautiful time. You know, that's just filled with endless possibility and potential. And I do wanna also presence that. I've never ever thought, like I've often said, women hold a key here and I couldn't quite figure out what it was, but I was like, women are the key and I don't know why.

And that there's some kind of thing that needs to happen with women that then in unity with men create something new, right? That there's, that there's been some peace that the feminine needs to remember. I've literally used those words over and over and over again in order to unlock whatever it is that then creates this new world.

And I believe that what we're remembering is this story. Of our divinity. Of Me too. I too am divine. I too am divine and I'm enough. Exactly as I am. Words and all.

So you know, just no big deal.

And don't forget to laugh, . 

Celene: Don't forget to laugh. 

Monica: Oh my God. Don't forget to laugh. Oh my gosh. Sure. The other thing you know that comes up for me is I've talked about these archetypes of the maiden. Who knows that all things are possible, right? The daughter, I love that she sent her daughter Sophia, sent her daughter life because when I look at my daughter as the maiden in this full upright archetype, not the wounded maiden, but the maiden, yeah.

She represents life and all of the potential of life. This is the maiden, right? The bud. The bud of potential impossibility. And then of course, I've done the work and the certification of Sarah Durham Wilson to understand what happens. Why don't we cross the bridge into the archetype of mother, which is the full bloom.

Which is the fully, which is a woman in her full sufficiency who knows her enoughness in that full bloom of life, that knows her creative power and her potential and her divinity, and all of what she is and is not. But she knows, and she's unapologetic, fully permissioned in self approval in that full bloom.

So what happens between that stage is what I always talk about and what I always talk about is what's missing and what happens. So what's missing is the initiation is the wise woman is enough, mothers enough wo women who have come into full bloom that they can create the bridge for the maiden to crossover.

So what happens during the time of. When she just starts coming into bloom, right? We think of the budding breasts is something, arrests her development there. And I believe as she comes into Eros, her psyche is fractured. And there is that story, that mythology of arrows and psyche right there. Right there.

And that's where I get super curious because there's a fracture that happens that keeps women in, wounded maiden, unable to cross the bridge, and then they kind of rot on the vine, so to speak. They rot on the stem where their potential kind of, and that's where they start feeling the resentful and the, and the hurt.

And they turn, they internalize that patriarchal voice on themselves and they become what Maryanne Woodman called the death mother. And so, That's also here in this space because I've been talking about this arrested development for many, many years. I've noticed that there's this place where women in the modern world become assaulted, raped, if you will, violated, whether it's by imagery or you know, actual treatment.

And of course it's not limited to women, but I think you know what I'm saying here is like that there's this, that coming into our full womanhood is not safe. . And so we disassociate and we leave the body. And when we leave the body, I'm just gonna pull up our card here,

And when we leave the body, we no longer

have access to the truth because we abandon the place that we're, we have our birthright to inhabit and yet it's not safe to be there. Go hug. Creepy Uncle Bill or whatever. Our patriarchal mothers also are telling us when we look to the mother for, is this okay? Is this safe? And our patriarchal last mothers say, this is how it's been.

This is how it's always been. This is how we do it. , you sit, you kneel, you go to the patriarchal church, you listen to what these stories are telling you about your place in the world and you kneel and you bow and you take communion.

You, you see what I'm like. It's like, 

Celene: yeah, yeah, absolutely. And well, and you know, just thinking about too, you know, these, these big violences, um, and again, I think you put this so eloquently earlier, like, you know, we don't wanna conflate the spectrum of what happens to different people and the ways in which bodies are violated.

But it also makes me think about these little, these little violences that are done to the soul and the spirit all the time about like, again, you're not smart enough. You shouldn't talk about that. You're not good at math and science. You're not as smart as so-and-so boy. 

Monica: Cross your legs. Don't sit that way.

Celene: Yep. Don't take up too much space. We would always joke when I lived in New York City, you know, the man spreaders would take up like three seats and then the women would be as tiny as they could possibly get. And there were also safety reasons for that. So thinking about all of those things on a regular basis, those little pieces that just chip away, chip away, chip away, but move toward that dissociative state.

Monica: Well, and also I wanna point out that then we call it what it is, which is man spreading from our perspective, right? When we've been forced to be small and like we have all of this like misdirected anger, and it is misdirected, it's like we're not, we're like pissed at them, but it's like we're, what we're really pissed at is the system.

Yeah. That creates these disparities and that continues. Right? And what we're really pissed at is ourselves. Right. Like when we keep like, yeah. 

Celene: For not, for not female spreading, right? 

Monica: That, that, that kind of keeps this, it, it's so maddening. So, so yes to all of what you know, but like to our listeners, we literally picked a card at this time it was from the Sacred Rebel's Guidebook because Eve right is like the sacred rebel in this particular story.

And she disassociates, her intuition tells her to di disassociate until it's safe to come home. And so what I wanna propose is that this time in our human evol evolution, we're creating that it's safe to come home now. 

Celene: Yes. And I also just wanna say for folks, this is one of the places where I do also, I don't know about anybody else's experience around this, but I know that some of my own experience in healing circles has, has had a lot of judgment around dissociation.

And I just wanna name the wisdom in that. And the way that it actually saves people, it saves us. And we need to honor and bring in that part too. It's always about this as Monica as you keep saying that, sacred and, and I think that so often, you know, there's this push to rush for feeling and wholeness, and we don't even think about what those words actually mean, but it is literally about gathering it all.

In and Eve, actually, once again in this story is such an amazing model for this because she inhabits all of those different pieces. Human, divine, dissociated, dissociated, violated, field whole, I mean all of them.

Monica: Intuitive, all of them together. Yes. 

Celene: Yes. Mm-hmm. , all of it. All of them together. 

Monica: Yeah. I love that.

I love that you said that. And yes, I am so grateful that I knew that I knew how to survive that, that I disassociated in order to survive some of the things that I needed to survive in order to be here for this part. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's so amazing. I love that you just said that. to finish this part about the Oracle card that we chose.

The card said, uh, you cannot make this shit up. First of all, the card said, what do you feel? And in one hand of this woman is an apple, and by the way, she's wearing a tie. So how interesting is that? So she's got an A, the duality of the apple and the orange, which we're talking about Adam and Eve, and then she's looking at the earth and she's k kind of in this cosmic space and kind of like we're making up that.

She's saying like, like what's, what is, what does the earth need now? And like that, what do you feel becomes this indicator for what is needed now is so cool. 

Celene: Yeah. . It's so cool. The apple, when as soon as you picked it and we had said, oh, for Eve we need to use this deck. And then the apple is in her hand.

I just thought you, you just named it right away. Uh, it couldn't be more perfect. 

Monica: It couldn't be more perfect. Yeah. 

Celene: And this thing about feeling and thinking about, again, you know, intuition, whether it's the intuition of the dissociation or the intuition that she knew that she could trust the snake. I mean, all of these, all of these pieces and what does that have to do with feeling the very center of that card?

Monica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And anything too that you wanna add about feeling? Because I, there's a lot, there's, first of all, there's a lot of emotion that I think, you know, is coming up for both of us. You know, as we kind of talk about this. And I think there's like all kinds of emotion here, but I. I really, I feel like this feeling part is that human part of ourselves that is so inviting us back to the body to feel, to reveal, to heal.

And I just, I wondered if you had anything to say about that. 

Celene: I,

I, I love that so much. And one of the things that I'm just, that it's bringing to mind for me, and, you know, it's so, it's so interesting to me, just the more I move into my feelings states, I sometimes feel like it's harder to have words because they're so, because the body's not word oriented. It's really that feeling.

It's that feeling space. But that, you know, paradoxically, For me, being able to be in that feeling space is the thing that actually, and in my body is the thing that allows for that deeper connection with the divine. That, you know, it is this just such an interesting paradox. The clearer I get about myself and who I am, the more I can actually be truly present for what others need these and, and so much of that is, I think about em embodiment and I think it's been one of the places which I'm getting better at, maybe talking about or coming out of, coming out about.

But you know, as someone who is, uh, who is a historian and a scholar and in academia, you know, these are things that we're not always supposed to talk about. And yet I find that the scholars and my own work, that's the best. Are the ones that really come out of these, out of these embodied spaces where I am literally moved and, and for words then to become a work for something to come for, something to kind of emerge from that and, and to become something that, that moves, that moves through me.

Just like feelings and emotions and all of these other things. And that the best work that I do is the work that I do when I'm connected. Connected with, you know, in that moment of feeling where I am both inside and beyond myself at the same time. That paradox of paradox of embodiment and how it's, how both, just about how the more we feel, the more we have access to kind of what's this connection with things around us.

Monica: Yes. Yes. And I think I was gonna make a point. about Eve and it's lost now. Shoot. But that's okay. You know what this we, what we're talking about is really kind of this, what we've been talking about the whole time, which is the sacred and which is saying yes to the mass, which is this place where I remember now where it's so paradoxical because the cognitive dissonance is kind of the trance and the story that keeps us in this place of like disassociation from the body.

And the second we offer the, and is the place where we can breathe again, is the place where we actually remember spirit, the breath, where we are both human and divine. and it's in that place where everything gets to belong. And with all of its complexity that thunder perfect mind then becomes like this other bridge that is here to kind of offer an interpretation about all of the paradox that is the feminine and what, and that the feminine and the heroin's journey also is inclusive of the masculine.

So it's this part about she remembers and then she helps him remember. and then they get to belong in this union where everything becomes possible again, where everything gets to belong and nobody needs to be excluded and no, no part of us needs to be denied. And so I am so curious about what you wanna offer here about Thunder Perfect Mind, even though it's in the last few minutes, and we won't do it justice, but at least to kind of give our audience a way that this kind of segues into this next conversation, which is so cool.

Celene: So, yeah, I mean there's so much to say about Thunder. It's such a cool text. We don't know, you know, we don't know a lot about where it comes from, but it's kind of this voice of, there's this genre in the ancient world of these divine beings kind of declaring all these things about them. And I am statements.

And mostly what's fascinating about these, they're called ologies. And what's fascinating about them is it's all about like, look how good I am. Look at what a badass I am. Like it's all about these like really lofty, these really lofty positions. And the thing about the voice of thunder is that she takes it all.

in. And one of the things that my colleagues and I really paid attention to was the way in which there is this gender fluidity where she, she's not just taking on female positions, even though it seems so really interesting. Just like these divine women in, in these eve texts, instead of the masculine being the universal, we get this feminine that is able to hold it all, which I just love, like it's this, it's this.

And again, it's not pushing out the masculine, but it's saying, you know what, here's a, here's a different way to engage with this. And interestingly, in one of the three texts that the eve story is in on the origin of the world. There's actually this little hymn that she says about herself, and it's a piece of thunder.

Perfect mind. Yeah. Yes. What, and before I forget to say this, Monica, because I meant to tell you this earlier, I actually peeked for a second while you were talking because I was like, I'm sure this is there in this same version. I will send you a copy of this. The story of Aeros and Psyche is also in the middle of that retelling of the Adam and Eve story. Yes. 

Monica: What?

Celene: So as soon as you brought that up, I was like, no way. So there's, there's so much. We are just scratching the surface of these texts, by the way. There is so much more to explore. We are just, we're only at the beginning of them, but Thunder, Perfect Mind. Um, so, but sh she's this divine female character who basically, you know, initially, um, and again, this is from this group of scholars that I worked with.

They thought it was all about like, Bringing the binaries together, but there's always a binary and then a third. So the text itself undercuts the binaries. Not only is it like a Yung transcendent function type thing, but we also get where the opposites come together and create something new. There's these thirds that come in that places.

So it is really trying to explode, open this idea that we need to be in the OR space. It is literally all about the and space. And just to give an idea of this, the beginning of the text starts with, There's a little prologue in there that says, for I am the first and the last, I am the honored and the scorned.

I am the who and the holy woman. And then it just, I am the, I am the silence never found and the idea infinitely recalled. I am the speaking of my name, like it is just the juiciest most wonderful text. I highly recommend finding a copy of it if, we'll, I'll make sure that you have a, a link to it so that people can take a peek at it.

Also, just to say the end of the text we think was added on later because it seems to hen her voice a little bit. So just notice that when you read that at the end, it seems like, oh, maybe we're getting a little domesticated, that we think that this was probably an addition that is meant to like so many other things, domesticate the entire text.

Monica: So interesting. Wow. Yes. And for my listeners, I'll be sure to put the links right. I'll Celene, if you have a specific translation right, that you is your favorite, probably your own, uh, yeah. You know, I can link it in the show notes along with any other resources that you think are important for us to offer for this episode.

But, um, yeah, what a note to, to end on and also like, I love that the end creates a new beginning because I would love to, you know, have you on again and have the thunder perfect mind conversation because you're right, it's so rich. Every time I read it, I'm, I'm moved. You know, every time I read it, I see something new that I hadn't seen before.

And every time I read it, I have a new interpretation. So it's like, So generative, you know what I mean? Like it's so inspiring. It's so generative, and it just, again, it's like it really does kind of, you were talking about this earlier, but how feelings are so difficult to put into language, and yet there are ways that this poem kind of captures the divinity or these beings in this divine realm because there's just, it just feels so.

Sacred and divine, you know, to read this. There's something that literally like opened in my cellular being when I read it, and so 

Celene: It invites possibility. 

Monica: Yeah, it really does. Well, I could not have asked for a more rich and beautiful and deep conversation. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you feel you wanna mention or any other parting words or final comments?

Celene: Mostly just thank you, thank you for allowing me the opportunity to hang out with you for this time. And thank you for the generosity of being able to speak to your listeners today. And I just really hope, yeah, I really hope that this is, that this has been fruitful and interesting and um, hopefully Eves story has been inspiring, uh, to folks.

And, uh, you know, Monica can, if you have questions, uh, Monica can make sure that you can get in touch with me. But it's just, it's always a gift to get to be. A conduit for this story. So thank you for giving me that opportunity again today. Yeah, 

Monica: I mean, I literally am like so full by this conversation in the best way, and I just am like so deeply grateful and I wanna bring in again, just how beautiful and serendipitous it was that we got a chance to be connected.

I wanna thank Miguel O'Connor. I wanna thank Joanna Kujawa, you know, because I feel like they both had a hand in this happening and it certainly for me was like a huge puzzle piece that just helps me. I often talk about kind of this idea of like, Joanna talks about. being this spiritual detective that at one point in my life it was like I just stopped paying attention to all of it for a while.

And then similar to so many of us, it was like I had one piece that started to make sense and then I kind of started working on another piece. And then before long I had like some formation of a picture and that like there are new puzzle pieces that come in and I'm seeing more and I'm seeing more and it's just such a beautiful, it's been such a beautiful and also satisfying and fulfilling journey for me to be able to create more conversation that offer others, you know, a revelation or a piece of the puzzle for their own journey.

So thank you again, Celene. It's just been. Completely amazing. And for my listeners, I'll be sure to make sure all of the juicy highlights are in the show notes and the links. And until next time, more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes.

We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.