187: Ronna J. Detrick
===

Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. So hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of.

Monica: The revelation project podcast today I'm with Ronna Detrick, and I'm so pleased to just be having this conversation with her because she has written a new book that is just recently out called rewriting Eve. I want to give you a little bit more background about Ronna in a minute, but first I want to let you know that I started reading her book earlier in the week and I just felt this just right at the beginning of the book.

Monica: She names what so many women I think feel when we think about those of us at least that were raised in a faith tradition that really. Pointed to the Bible as women in the Bible or who appeared in the Bible are stories of how not to be. That's really what I got growing up from any woman who was ever mentioned in the Bible, and I stopped listening.

Monica: Actually, there was a very early time in my very young life where I just put up a wall, frankly, in order to protect myself from the stories that I believed were actually corrosive to my spirit and to my soul. But as many of you know, who listened to this podcast, whether it's from the Bible or just The world in general, we are micro dosed these messages like an Ivy at birth.

Monica: And what I love about the conversation that we're about to have is that you're about to meet a woman who has the gift of going back and rewriting stories through a new narrative and a new perspective, which is what I also love talking about. That now is our time as women to take the pen from patriarchy.

Monica: Thank you very much. And to write our own stories and to tell our own stories. And so Ronna Dietrich is here with us today. She left the church and its dogma nearly 20 years ago, but she took the stories of women with her women that were longing to be seen, heard, and honored apart from the doctrine and the dogma, she also had given a provocative TEDx presentation about.

Monica: Eve who inspires and empowers women instead of shaming and silencing them. And she's the author of rewriting Eve rescuing women's stories from the Bible and reclaiming them as our own. She holds a BA in business and communications and a master of divinity degree that's focused on feminist theology, and her career has.

Monica: spand human resources, training and development, executive leadership, and most recently since 2009, coaching and spiritual direction. She lives minutes from the Atlantic ocean in North Carolina, and she continues to drink strong coffee, right? Have beautiful conversations with her clients. And I love this stand firm in her belief that her two daughters are the most amazing humans on the planet.

Monica: And you can learn more about her, of course, on her website, which we will have in the show notes. Please join me in welcoming her. Hi, Ronna.

Ronna: Hey, Thank you so much for having me. 

Monica: Well, and I want to go right to just this point about standing firm in your belief that your two daughters are the most amazing humans on the planet.

Monica: And you know, in reading your book, I also really resonated so much with the personal storytelling. That you told about your own growing up experience, but also how that was mirrored in your mothering with your daughters and just seeing some of the same generational trauma really kind of coming through.

Monica: And some of this patriarchal conditioning that of course is this micro dosed messaging that I've. Always talk about just right at the very beginning. I'd love to talk about just a little bit more about what had you write this book and how have your daughters influenced your decision to do so? 

Ronna: Well, it's hard to name what had me write the book because I feel like I've been writing it for forever.

Ronna: Mhm. And on some level, it's been 20 years that I've been working on it in one way, shape, or form. I think, you know, to go back further in my story, it was really my leaving of the church, leaving my marriage to the pastor, that Which, to name my daughters, I did primarily on behalf of them, needing them to see me full, whole, intact, not compromised, not complying.

Ronna: So, I think it was just a, kind of a perfect storm of all of those things at the same time that compelled me, often out of necessity, and Really being in dire and dark and hard places to find encouragement, like I needed, desperately needed support. And I found that. In part, in these stories that, like you, I had a strong tendency to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Ronna: You know, it's really hard, I think, even as I was listening in your introduction, like, the second I even hear the word Bible, there's a part of me that shuts down. Uh, that doesn't want to talk about it. And yet within that text are all these stories of women that I felt like I needed to be able to see and understand and hear from in a different way.

Ronna: And that they deserved that they deserved to be pulled out of that text and invited into our lives in ways that were relevant and meaningful. And I think You know, certainly I, you know, I tell stories about my daughters being a mom, all kinds of things in the context of the book, and it would be my deepest hope for them that they would walk into their worlds as young adults in ways that I couldn't even imagine.

Ronna: When I was their age in ways that enable them to see themselves as powerful and sovereign and wise to trust their intuition and their voice and their heart, all of the things that I think these stories and these women offer us, but that I certainly wasn't given in my own development and growth. I want that deeply for them.

Ronna: I want it for me. I want it. For all of us as women, to be sure. 

Monica: Yes. I love that Ronna so much. And I want to also just say that I really also resonated with that part in the, I think you were saying it towards the back of the book where so many of these stories are in many ways, like what I would consider kind of the impetus for the trance of unworthiness to occur.

Monica: Right. And so, Um, It's like going back and being able to really create the antidote to, to have women kind of see these stories through a new lens as a way to kind of remedy really the. Illness or the dis ease that these stories left as they are left without second thought left without adding the voices, the imagination and the interpretations of of other women to disrupt that before it has a chance to take hold, because what I'm hearing and what you're saying is that this was I'm saying it was My experience you're saying it was your experience.

Monica: You're saying you saw it with your own daughters, and I think that we all have this Reckoning, so to speak, with some of these sacred ancient texts. And I also think of the courage it takes to actually go back to what, you know, has been deemed sacred and sanctified as is, and to actually dare to rewrite them. To dare to look at them through a new lens and you've added so many revelations that you had along the way that have really kind of, quite frankly, transformed these stories for me too, just in reading this. So I have some favorites, but I wanted to create a little bit more context for the listener.

Monica: So I would love for you to just give us an introduction to how you structured the book and then anything else that you want to add about that before we kind of go in and dip more deeply into some of the things that I illustrated. 

Ronna: Sure. Yeah. So one of the reasons why I think going back to these ancient sacred stories is so important is because first and foremost, it's when we look at them closely that we can then see with great clarity the harm, the trance of unworthiness.

Ronna: Like, I think it's important that we know where that comes from. And though it originates in lots of places and lots of ways, the scriptural text, at least in the Western world, has, in large part, shaped the culture that we live in, the governmental policies that are passed and then unpassed. The, all of this is foundationally grounded in the biblical text, and we might not like that, we might not agree with that, but it still needs to be seen.

Monica: And in fact, some of us may not even know that. 

Ronna: Of course, if you, especially if you didn't grow up in the context of the church, or you're still in it, this would not be the lens that you would view any of this through. But especially for women who, who are not inclined toward organized religion, that hasn't been a predominant aspect of their background or their present day.

Ronna: It's important to recognize that the way these stories have been told, and Eve's is the most obvious example, it's why I use her first, and always, and over and over again, is because at core, everything that we experience today as women that is Harmful that keeps us silent that keeps us shamed that continues that has the, you know, our own internal editor, the imposter complex.

Ronna: All of these things are grounded in the original telling of that story. So in the book, the case I'm making is that it's not the story. It's not the woman. It's the way the story's been told and those stories for thousands of years have exclusively been told by men, of course, like, that's no surprise. I don't have a critique of that.

Ronna: Of course, that's the reality given our history, but It doesn't have to stay that way. Like there's opportunity for those stories to now be reconsidered, looked at again, and imagined, like, what was the woman's experience? What can I assume or believe that she would have been experiencing? What would her voice bring to the table?

Ronna: If I heard this story again through Her lens, what would I begin to see so much differently than what I've inculcated and imbibed over my lifetime? So that was the premise. That was the impetus for the whole thing. I've worked with 50 plus of these stories over the years in lots of different contexts.

Ronna: So to whittle it down was a challenge. I chose 10. Stories. It felt really important that I start with Eve because she sets, creates the template for us, I think. Because in the beginning. Yes, exactly. But I chose seven stories from the Old Testament, some of which are women that we've heard of, Eve being a good example.

Ronna: Esther is a story that many women have heard of. There are others, if you grew up in the church, you would know a lot of them, but still a couple that maybe you don't. And then three stories from the New Testament, which interestingly, none of whom have names, which I find really fascinating. It is fascinating.

Ronna: So, you know, I could have chosen way more and maybe I will write more moving forward, but it felt like The right collection of women to bring forward at least to start to invite this conversation, 

Monica: You know, and this, this might be a question, a side question, but I'm curious, do you by chance know exactly how many women are named in the Bible 

Ronna: Named or told of told of?

Ronna: No, I don't know the number, but there are hundreds. Mm hmm. And sometimes they're just a mention in a genealogy, or it's the wife of, or the daughter of. Right. There's, that's it. It's a passing comment. Yes. But I say this multiple times in the book. For all of my own deconstruction, walking away from religion, leaving the church, all of, you know, all of that, if I were to really pin my beliefs, or if I were to really like land the plane as it relates to a god, I would have to say one exists, given the fact that these women's stories have even survived.

Ronna: It's shocking, quite frankly. I mean, it's sad the way that they've been told the way that they've been misinterpreted the way that they've harmed us. And they're still in there, which is miraculous, quite frankly. 

Monica: It's interesting. At some point in the book, you talk about, I think it's, it's the story of the woman at the well, you talk about the fact that so many of these stories were used as.

Monica: Props to glorify men. So many of these women's stories and. Or again, tales of how not to be. And so in some ways you get that there's still, it still is kind of the training ground and intended to be used by design to actually keep women in their place, like that seems to me the overarching intended narrative.

Monica: And so, yes, it's. Miraculous that we're even having to have this conversation kind of like that, even centuries down the line here that we're even still pointing to this absurdity and saying, it's important for us to reimagine these stories now, please. Yes. All right. So now I want to just name what you started naming, which is why are these stories important for women who didn't grow up in a faith tradition?

Monica: Why are they important to women who might not have been raised with the biblical stories? 

Ronna: Yeah, well, I'm repeating myself, but to some degree, I think the first reason that they're super important is because it helps us name and acknowledge our own harm. And even if we remove the sacred and spirituality completely from the mix, in terms of our own development as humans, we have to name the stories that have shaped us, whether that's our family of origin or whether that's our Harm and trauma that's occurred to us.

Ronna: And certainly these stories that are in the water in our DNA again, especially in the Western world that in and of itself to me is enough reason to know of them to understand what their impact has been. But beyond that, and in the positive, I. Think that we are so starved for stories of women that encourage and support us like I just believe we stand on the shoulders of this long and illustrious and amazing matrilineal line that we've not heard of, that we've not been told of.

Ronna: We have these ancient stories, you know, Greek and Roman myth. We know some of us know these stories of the goddess. You know, as we get older, as we move away from the church, these become, these really significant tomes for us. And we latch onto them because we're like, what? There's stories of powerful women?

Ronna: What? People used to believe in this? Where are those? Can I have those, please? And I just feel like there's so many more that are available to us. And, you know, you said this at the beginning when you were reading my bio, like when I left the church, I just. I think the way I say it is that I took the stories of the women with me, but I often feel like they said, don't go without us.

Ronna: Yeah, don't leave us here. Don't leave us behind. And so for me to look at these women as companions and mentors and muses and Literal presence, a source of wisdom to remind me that I'm not alone, that I'm seen, and I'm heard, and I'm honored, and I'm invited to a much different way of being in a world that continues to want to silence and shame me, you know, more please.

Ronna: They matter. We desperately need.

Monica: So which one, I mean, I know it's probably impossible, but which one do you think is important for us to talk about? Should we do Eve just a little bit to set the groundwork? And then I would love to know personally, another one that you love. And then I want to also talk about one that I loved and, and, and kind of share why.

Monica: Let's kind of start with just in the beginning, right? This. Story of Eve and just anything that you want to share about what led you to re imagine her story and how that really ended up turning around for you. 

Ronna: Her story in many ways, when I began to work with it was sort of, you know, flicking your finger at a house of cards.

Ronna: Like the second that that one fell. The second that I could see it a different way, the whole thing started to crumble. Gratefully. Like I was, I loved that that was the case because it allowed me to unhook from so many things that felt taboo, even this idea of reinterpreting these stories. I talk about this in the book.

Ronna: There are, we believe we've been told these are sacrosanct, like you can't go in and mess with these. Right. And I say in the book. People have been messing with him from the beginning. I can. I can. I have permission. I, I'm going to. 

Monica: And Ronna, what was that moment where the house of cards fell, where you were like, do you remember?

Ronna: Yeah. I think Eve aside, the place where there are two things that were happening when I was in seminary, uh, this was while I was still married to the pastor. My girls were like three and five or some such thing. And I was. In a, I was, uh, learning Hebrew and Greek, and while I was in that class, it was all men, except for two women, and we were translating the book of Ruth, that was the text that was being used for the semester, or the year, or whatever it was, and we would come to class in the morning, and we had had an assignment of what we were supposed to translate, and we would read.

Ronna: our translation. And what I started to notice over time was that the other woman and my translations were distinctly different than the men's. Now, it didn't change the story. The nouns are still the nouns. The verbs are still the verbs. Like, you know, the things, the, the basic overall story was the same, but there was a nuance that was distinctly different.

Ronna: And the men would often argue with us. They would be, they would say, well, that's not. That's not how you say that. That's not the right way to translate that. That doesn't work. And the two of us would like show our work. Like, here's how we parse the verbs. Here's the subject. Here's the object. Here's the way that you can influence this text.

Ronna: A couple things came out of that. One was my First comprehension, especially with Hebrew, of how fluid that language was, how wide open to interpretation it has always been, it's just that women haven't been the ones interpreting it. That's right. So that was like, again, like permission granted, open door, step through, you can do this if you want to.

Ronna: The second thing I think that I really noticed in that, in that class was it gave me this awareness that, oh my gosh. These stories have always been told by men, always interpreted by men. And what happens if women get to step into this space? Maybe something different, maybe something new. So that was huge for me.

Ronna: The other thing that happened while I was in seminary was I took a class called feminist critique. It was the first time, and only time, that class has ever been offered. And I was, what, like 41 or 42 or something at the time? And it was really my first blatant exposure to feminism, and probably more importantly, the objectification of women.

Ronna: I just hadn't seen it. And I'd grown up in the church, which of course I hadn't seen it because the church is not going to be talking. I mean, it isn't, it's objectifying women all the time, but if you're in the water, 

Monica: It's the water we swim in. 

Ronna: Yeah. You just don't see it. Well, once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it.

Ronna: And so those two things combined. Along with the stories themselves, really like the dominoes fell at that point, if I could let go of particular things that felt like they were poured in concrete, if I could interpret, if I could think about these stories in a different way, critique how they had been told, tell them in a new way.

Ronna: I'm like, okay, there's no end to this. Then there's all kinds of places we can go now. And so much freedom. Yeah, that it gave me to really go back and Instead of being irritated by the text, it's not the text. It's the telling of the text that has been irritating. So it just gave me all kinds of permission and freedom to play and to find such beauty and strength in the midst of those pages.

Monica: Yeah. And for our listeners, do you mind just telling us a little bit more about what feminist critique. is proposing or what it reorganizes so that we can look at things differently. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

Ronna: Sure. Yeah. I probably won't give you a very eloquent answer, but for me, it was understanding The significance of looking at not only the text, but our experiences, our own stories and the world through a feminist lens, like if we understand and allow for the honoring of a woman's experience as equally valued, equally valid, equally important in every single way now, From a critique perspective, we see where that's non existent, we see what the impact has been with that not being present, so it's a lens through which you, I'm repeating myself, but once you've seen it, you can't not see it, like that lens of critique Yeah, opens up this ability to start to understand why things feel look and are the way they are.

Ronna: And it gives you opportunity to change that. 

Monica: Yeah. And it does bear repeating, you know, over and over again, because what I also heard is that you had that one class and I don't think it's any, any longer being offered. Right. And that is the case for many of these. And had I not done. A feminist critique in my college, the one class that was offered, I would, I don't know where I'd be today, but it let's put it this way.

Monica: I wasn't awake yet, but I was awakened in a way that was like a seed cracking open. And as it germinated through the years, I often thought back to that specific class and like, Oh, this is what she was talking about. And I had a, you know, a feminist teacher and a feminine teacher, but you know, it probably was the thing for me that planted the seed.

Monica: And, you know, we talk about, This system hiding in plain sight. So again, for so many of us, even if you were not brought up in a faith tradition, these are the waters we swim in. This is the air we breathe. And so it never really occurs to us to call it something right. And, and to name it and then to see it, as you were saying through this lens of honoring.

Monica: Of equally valid as an equally valid experience, worthy of talking about, worthy of telling worthy simply because we exist. Exactly. And so there is a tremendous amount of harm. I just want to underscore and underline this part done by stories that are told by men for men. And to benefit the status quo, to keep the status quo in place.

Monica: And that only happens by keeping women at a certain status and in a certain place. Exactly. And so we call it the trance of unworthiness because That is exactly the lens that's missing is if we were to actually look at everything in our lives through this same feminist lens of, as we are equally valid and are we honoring the feminine in, in these actions, in these deeds, in these words, in these stories, we would have a completely different perspective on our lives.

Ronna: And a totally different world and a totally different world. We live in a totally different world, and I guess that's one of the things I've said about Eve, you know, from the get go. I talked about this in my TED Talk. I certainly talked about it in the book. When we look at the story of Eve, hers is the most significant story in shaping this narrative of women being dangerous, women causing trouble, women being too much, women needing to be silent and legitimately shamed.

Ronna: Because we're just, you know, out of control, you know, if we trust our desire, if we listen to our intuition, if we follow our hearts, all hell breaks loose, basically. 

Monica: And also this piece really that sanctioned this idea of needing a male. Yes, for sure. That we were subordinate in some way that we needed guidance.

Monica: Yes. We needed some kind of oversight,

Ronna: But none of that's in the text. None of that's in the story itself. That's all that we've applied over the years. And I run through, right, a long history of all of these statements from philosophers and theologians and Presidents and all kinds of people who have made statements about Eve slash women that we have just, I mean, not we like women, but overarchingly as a culture has just been the way of it.

Ronna: It's just been what's accepted, what's been known, what's been understood.

Monica: And Ronna, let's name a few. 

Ronna: Sure. Do you want me to? 

Monica: Yeah. Let's name a few. And I've got a couple of choice ones here too. 

Ronna: All right. Go for it. 

Monica: Okay. So let's see. Hmm. Let's say Thomas Aquinas, doctor of the church, 13th century. And when I read this run, I want to say that I immediately thought to myself, Oh my gosh, my father loved Thomas Aquinas, loved, loved, loved.

Monica: And I loved my dad. My dad loved me. But again, I had a lot of emotions come up in me as I was reading. Because you do such a great job of personal storytelling of making these biblical stories, very relevant to the modern day woman. And you speak with such authenticity about your own story and your own emotional journey.

Monica: So it was really like very raw, I guess, for me. So here's the quote as regards the individual nature. Woman is defective and misbegotten for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex. While the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some form.

Monica: Material in disposition, or even from some external influence. 

Ronna: So then we can jump forward three centuries. I mean, these are all cumulative. These earliest ones, like I start with Tertullian, who was the second century, then fourth century, the one you just read it's 13th century. By the 16th century, we have John Calvin.

Ronna: who was a primary voice in the Protestant Reformation, and he says, The woman was created afterwards in order that she might be a kind of appendage to the man. She was joined to the man on the express condition that she should be at hand to render obedience to him. God did not create two chiefs of equal power, but added to the man an inferior aid.

Ronna: Then we get to, like, the 20th century, an Episcopalian bishop, who says, The sexuality of Christ is no accident, nor is his masculinity incidental. This is the divine choice. Now, again, I mean, we can go on, but these are all, none of this is in the text. These are all understandings, assumptions. Theologies, beliefs, philosophies that were created out of this singular story, but the story doesn't say anything of the kind.

Ronna: And so I think that's one of the places where I feel so much freedom and permission. If all of you people. For all y'alls, Bishop Meyers, yeah, John Knox, Augustine, Tertullian, Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Donald Trump, no matter who. If all of you have permission to go back to this story and make these kinds of leaps and assumptions, so can I.

Ronna: And I don't think mine are leaps and assumptions. I think mine are actually far more grounded in the story itself. We just have somehow conveniently bypassed all of that to be able to get to this. 

Monica: Well, you, you have to also, I want to just name this. You also have to have a certain amount of knowing your own worthiness to dare to do it.

Monica: You know what I mean? It's like, this also becomes the place that I think we can. Tend to underestimate the forces that try to keep us from actually looking at these in this way. And so yes, to more of this, because we're kind of in a danger zone right now. I call it where if women continue to be silent, the more distracted and silent and unwilling, we are to name our experience, tell the truth about our lives and.

Monica: Take the pen and craft a new tale about what is possible for women. You know, we're in trouble 

Ronna: And isn't in so many ways. The words that you just used is exactly what Eve does. Eve tells her own story. Eve makes her own choices. Eve has her own understanding of the divine, the divine's voice, her own wisdom and it.

Ronna: We've taken all of that and we've collectively and made that like the worst thing in the world, right? We've understood that them being cast out of the garden was the worst thing that could ever happen and I think no It's not the worst. It's the best. Like Eve invited us into a brand new world. Eve is, you know, people often will say the reason Eve is so evil, the reason that, you know, you don't want to do what she did is because we're separated from God.

Ronna: This is the fall, the idea of the fall. Again, nothing in the text about the fall. And I talk about this in the book. The divine, if we want to talk about God, God's relationship with humans was way more intimate outside the garden than it was in way more. So, I mean, I could go on and on about Eve, but there's so many misconceptions, so many conclusions that we've drawn about a woman's choice, a woman's desire, a woman's wisdom as dangerous and problematic and too much.

Ronna: And I think. Absolutely not. What we see in that story is just the opposite. 

Monica: Okay, and I'm going to read a little passage here. Is that okay? Sure. On page 17, at least in my galley copy here, it is a rare woman indeed who has been affirmed for her desire or ever had it encouraged. Chances are slim to none that we have heard anyone say, want more.

Monica: Ask for more, demand more, trust your desire and trust yourself. More often than not, we have been told just the opposite. Don't want too much. Don't ask for more. Don't demand anything. Don't get too full of yourself. We've learned that trusting, pursuing, or indulging our desire only leads to disaster. Don't desire food.

Monica: You'll gain weight too much. Don't desire attention, especially by using or raising your voice. It's unladylike and unwanted too much. Don't desire more money or dare to ask for a raise. You'll be seen as greedy and selfish too much. Don't desire or expect too much from love. You'll be disappointed. And at the very least perceived as too needy.

Monica: Too much. Don't desire sex or dress like you do, you'll get what's coming to you and then be forever marked as undesirable. Too much. Don't desire equity, parity, equality, a seat at the table, or even respect. You'll be tagged as bitchy and domineering. Too much. I mean, it's like, OMG, did you ever name it right there?

Monica: It's amazing. And then I love this passage because of course you rewrite and talk about Eve's desire. So Eve's desire when looked at closely. With compassion and through her lens has no such moral to her story. She graciously and generously offers us a template that makes sense of what we intuitively know and consistently experience.

Monica: Of course, our desire can be costly and it is our strongest form of discernment and wisdom. Of course, our desire is dangerous and in the very best and life changing ways. Of course, our culture. Patriarchy specifically does everything in its power, including how it has told Eve's story to keep us from unleashing it, honoring it and acknowledging it.

Monica: And you need not believe a word of it. Your desire is good. If women trusted and claimed their desires. The world as we know it would crumble, writes Glennon Doyle. Perhaps that is precisely what needs to happen. Maybe Eve was never meant to be our warning. Maybe she was meant to be our model. Own your wanting, eat the apple, let it burn.

Ronna: So even in that, you know, I think I would assume for people listening, like when we recognize all of this about Eve's story, of course, we want to walk away from it. Of course, we want to separate ourselves from it, it's harmful, it's painful, and this is just the first one. There's so many that are just as bad and worse, right, in terms of how that has been, how that's been transmuted into our lived experience.

Ronna: And this is why I just keep making the same point. And we can actually go back to these stories and these women and see them not as our downfall, not as a thing we want to walk away from, but as the thing we wanted, the women we want to draw closest to. 

Monica: And get super curious about them. 

Ronna: Yes. And to ask, what have I missed?

Ronna: What have I not been told? What is available in her story that would change mine? And then who we show up as, how we step forward, the way that we choose to live, the choices that we make, the voice that we use, all of those things isn't something that we have to do alone. We now get to take stories like Eve's with us, and Eve herself, and see ourselves as her daughter, as part of her lineage, as something that is, are that honors us, not that shuts us down.

Monica: That's right. That's right. Okay. I love that. I love this so much. She, Eve's, Eve's story, I would say, you know, this is, this is the story that I felt was the most. Damaging for my own kind of sense of self this story about how she tempts Adam, how she disobeys God, how she brings shame to herself and to mankind.

Monica: And now she is cursed and will forevermore be. What is a young girl supposed to do with that? And Rana, I often tell this story of at some point. Hearing that story in church and looking around me with outrage, knowing in my heart that certainly like all of the women in this church are going to just raise up, rise up right now and noticing at that point, their eyes wide open, staring at the front of the church, but I realized, Oh, it's like, Nice house, but nobody's home.

Monica: It was almost like I saw I didn't know it at that time But that was where the origin of the trance showed up for me is kind of this Disassociated disembodied way of being there, but not quite 

Ronna: Mm hmm because we've not known anything other it's sort of like me being in that Hebrew class it wasn't until I could see it a different way that I Went, okay, this just undoes everything.

Ronna: Like this, this is just... Radical. But if you grew up in the church, you're probably not going to hear stories often told in contra in seemingly, I don't think they're controversial, but seemingly controversial ways. You don't have any sake of comparison. No, you don't. And so of course we're in the trance. Of course we just nod along and we say, sheesh.

Ronna: I know. Better work to not be that. Right. I better try harder to not be like Eve. Even though, you know, my marriage is a shitstorm, I need to just, you know, settle down. Be quiet. Not create more waves. Don't upset the apple cart. Do better. Yes. Don't desire. Don't speak up. Don't follow your heart. That's what Eve did.

Ronna: Look what happened. 

Monica: Yeah. Like, this must be my fault that things don't work out because of my. This terrible curse, you know, that women have. It's also kind of this, and I don't think we don't voice these things out loud because the other thing that has been very much true for all of us women is that our shame has been suffered in silence.

Monica: We've been isolated from each other. These are not the stories that we talk about. We don't talk about our shared shame. You know, we, we run from it. We try to hide it. We try to mask it and pretend. that we have it all handled. So it has this also negative way of kind of having us double down on self loathing almost.

Ronna: And I think, again, this is me being a little bit nitpicky and technical, but Eve's not actually cursed in the story. I mean, that's our normal language, right? Like she was cursed. No, the only entity cursed was the serpent. Adam and Eve merrily, I guess is the best word, bear the consequences of her choice.

Ronna: They step into what is now to come. And one of the things I say about that, her story, as well as any of the other ones, is I actually prefer. A story that is harder, that is grittier, because that is way closer to mine. Mm hmm. If Eve's story had ended with happily ever after in the Garden of Eden, all is well, they walk with the divine in the cool of the day, everything's perfect.

Ronna: I can't relate to that. Yeah. Other than aspirationally constantly trying to get back there, constantly trying to do better, constantly shaming myself because apparently I'm not good or perfect enough to actually dwell there. Yes. Whereas when I get this story, and any of these stories, what I see is... The reality, the ache, the labor, the pain, the, the truth of what our lives are actually like, which brings me so much more comfort, so much more companionship, so much less of a sense of being alone because now I'm walked, guided by, walked alongside with women who know exactly.

Ronna: What I feel.

Ad: Unbecoming: Hey friends, it's Monica's co conspirator Libby here again, and I've got some hot news for you. You've been hearing a lot about our six month unbecoming sisterhood coaching circle and registration is officially open my Queens. The journey kicks off November 7th, so I thought I'd hop on here to just say hello and give you this personal invitation into the unique and special space that only the magic of women gathering together bravely can create.

Ad: Unbecoming: We've been divided and convinced that we cannot trust each other for far too long, and we are collectively saying enough. Now is the time for us to stop stuffing our opinions and to start speaking up. The world needs our voices. Now is the time for us to stop obsessing over what we have been convinced is wrong with us and to start being in deep self approval.

Ad: Unbecoming: We deserve to love ourselves just as we are. Now is the time to stop depriving ourselves of rest, of nourishment, connection, play, and pleasure, and to learn how to return to our senses and feel it all. Feeling good right now is possible and so necessary for us to make our biggest impact. Now is our time, sisters.

Ad: Unbecoming: And if you're getting chills as you listen to this, now is the time for you to head over to jointherevelation. com slash unbecoming to get all the juicy deets and to sign up for a chat with me and Monica. It'll be like the best blind date you've ever gone on, and it actually gets to be all about you. So pop on over to jointherevelation.

Ad: Unbecoming: com slash unbecoming to get on our calendar, my loves. We've been expecting you

Monica: So take us next to one that really, really is your most resonant story, like the one that you felt most liberated by shifting and kind of had most of your revelations. I mean, I'm sure you had many through all of them, but what's your favorite? 

Ronna: Yeah. The story that I always go back to as my favorite is the story of Hagar.

Ronna: She is in the book of Genesis. She's a slave to Abraham and Sarah, the patriarch and matriarch of all three predominant faiths, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. They're old, Abraham and Sarah are old, and Abraham has been promised to be the father of nations. He will be blessed, his children will be blessed, and they have no children.

Ronna: So they're like in their 90s or some crazy thing, and Sarah decides to take things into her own hands because she's irritated with this delay. So she sends Hagar in to Abraham's tent, uh, which was common custom at the time. Slaves were owned. They, that was a very common thing to have happen, especially when infertility was involved.

Ronna: So Hagar gets pregnant, and what we hear in the text is that as soon as Hagar was pregnant, Sarah's abuse of her. Heightens considerably. Now, Sarah blames Hagar for this. But my take on it is what we see is Hagar runs away. She runs into the desert and is pregnant, alone, no resources, a slave, marginalized, no power, no voice, nothing.

Ronna: So if I can. I can. Reverse engineer this things had to be pretty damn bad for her to leave and run into the middle of the desert while pregnant things would, you know, like they had to be bad because that's not good. And it's in the desert that the. Divine shows up for her, hears her crying and says, what's happening?

Ronna: Where have you come from? Where are you going? She tells the story and the divine in the form of an angel says, you will be blessed, you will give birth to a son. He will be, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's very positive, but I talk about this in the book. He'll be a wild ass of a man. He has hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand will be against Him.

Ronna: Go back to Abraham and Sarah. So she does. She goes back and there's more to the story. I will interject and say one of the most excruciating ass ways this story's been used is to tell abused women to go back because the divine commanded Hagar to go back. Surely you should as well, which she does. I completely reject, like, and viscerally that makes, you know, it's like nails on a chalkboard.

Ronna: Like, no, that's not what we have going on here at all. Anyway, there's more to the story, but the reason her story has been so significant for me is because see. In the midst of my own awareness of my marriage falling apart, my own ambivalence around whether or not I could leave, uh, married to the pastor, my own life of faith and belief and doctrine, all those things had, were telling me, you have to stay, you have to make this work, you can't.

Ronna: Leave. So I felt like I was wandering around in the middle of a desert. I just was parched and lost and alone. And my spiritual director at the time asked me about Hagar and said to me, I wonder what she would have to say to you in your desert, Ronna. And I didn't quite get what she meant when she said it, but I went home that day and I opened up a new document and I probably typed something across the top like, what would Hagar say to me?

Ronna: And I typed and typed and typed and typed and typed. And again, none of this like me looking back at Genesis and making sure that I was getting it right, I didn't care, I was imagining this woman who knew more harm than I did, much more, in very different ways, and wondering, given all that, what would she offer me?

Ronna: What would she say? What would she know? What would she understand? What kind of comfort would she provide? What kind of advice and wisdom? And I'll fast forward but it radically changed my, changed my story. It changed everything because I recognized this is a woman who made an incredibly difficult choice and it was there.

Ronna: That the divine met her not because she was obedient, not because she stayed, but because she left. That that was where the divine showed up, where she most needed the divine, where she was the most desolate. And I began to think, Oh, well, if that's what the divine does for women, then maybe. That could be possible for me as well.

Ronna: Yes, there's way more to her story. So much more that I could say, but she holds a very, very special place in my heart. 

Monica: Well, I relate to that too. And here's how, when I always kind of talk about this point in my, my life, when I too was kind of holding it all together in pretending not to know. That my marriage was falling apart, pretending not to know that I was dying inside, pretending not to know that my Children were suffering in all of those ways that, and I remember like beginning to kind of pray, but not in a way I had ever been taught.

Monica: You know, as a child, it was more of like This desperate, please don't make me do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And at some point, just a whisper was like, let go. And I was like, wait, like, are you crazy? Like if I let go, like everything's going to fall apart. And then hearing, like, That's the point.

Ronna: Yeah. 

Monica: Just this. And, and it wasn't until I let go and let it all fall apart and said yes to the mass, the divine shows up. And so there is this way that in the messiest, grittiest, most impossible places in our lives at the dead end, it's not a dead end at all. It's like a new beginning can, can. Occur and show up 

Ronna: And to your point, I think you know what you're in your own story there and certainly in mine when we find ourselves.

Ronna: At those dead ends, backed into a corner in so many ways, if we don't have someone's hand that we can take, that pulls us forward, that invites us into anything different than the fate that we think is always going to be ours, uh, it is really difficult. to, to move, to have the courage to move, to step forward, to make a change, to speak our mind, to put our foot down, to draw a line in the sand, whatever language we want to use.

Ronna: And so for me, Hagar's story and all of these stories have been that presence, that hand that has reached out and said, okay, come with me. You're not by yourself. You're not alone. I see you. I hear you. Here's what I want you to know. And I just think. I mean, if we think about this in a literal form, you know, those are the women that are actual friends that we look back at and we think if it weren't for her, if she had not shown up for me in that moment or said this thing or offered me a place to stay or whatever, like we all have these stories, I don't know that I would have been able to do what I did.

Ronna: And I think these women, these stories offer us exactly the same thing. 

Monica: And I love this passage and I'll read it. It's on, um, page 46, I think. Hagar was an enslaved woman with no resources, no family, nothing and no one on whom she could depend her decision to run could have easily ended her life and her child's she left anyway, it wasn't really a choice she knew and she knows even now, even still, all of the wisdom she longs to offer all that she wants us to believe and trust her voice rings out again and again saying you already know, You already know that it's time to walk away.

Monica: You already know that the relationship is over. You already know that you are compromising yourself. You already know that the hard conversations ahead are going to be yours to start and finish. You already know that your job is not a fit. You already know that you have to leave the church. You already know that once you believed And trusted isn't working anymore.

Monica: You already know that your perspective and opinion matter. You already know that you are more than enough and deserve the best. You already know, you already know, you already know. So powerful. It's like, it makes me want to cry and cry. I did and cry. I will. So my favorite, my personal favorite so far.

Monica: Because I still have one story left.

Ronna: I can't wait to hear what happens when you read the last one.

Monica: I know, I'm like dying because my, my listeners will appreciate the irony. The final chapter that I have yet to read is chapter 10, The Woman of Revelation 12. I mean, come on. Okay. So my favorite so far is the woman at the well, because it's all about shame.

Monica: And I love this quote by an Anais Nin that you have here. Shame is the lie someone told you about yourself. And I loved this story because shame has been such a tool for women's oppression for so long. And it certainly was a tool for mine and any woman who went against the purity culture and dared to.

Monica: Author her own life in her own way, but in the face of no agreement everywhere. So this woman is shunned. This woman is very isolated. She's had five husbands. And so this story I also felt was so powerful and I loved it so much, but it was all about to this interaction. between she and Jesus at the well and how that interaction went.

Monica: And of course, just how amazing and inspiring really she is when you read between the lines. So I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about the woman at the well and why this story is important for women. 

Ronna: Well, the way that story has been told over time is It's just a, what's the word I want?

Ronna: It's just a shower of shame. Basically, we were told that the reason that she's at the well in the middle of the day is because she feels so much shame. Otherwise she would have been there in the morning with the other women. We're told that when she's in this conversation with Jesus, he's been traveling, he sends the disciples on ahead to get food, and he asks her, will you get, will you draw some water for me?

Ronna: And she says, who are you to talk to me, a Samaritan, when you're a Jew? And Jesus answers her, and then he says, if you knew the water that I was offering, this living water, you, wouldn't ask this question or something. And she says, give me that water so I don't ever have to come to the well again. And then he says, well, go get your husband.

Ronna: And she said, I don't have one. And he said, well, that's exactly right. You've already had five. And the man that you live with now, isn't your husband. Then she begins this theological conversation with him. We're told that our ancestors worship on the mountain. Why do the Jews worship someplace else? I mean, they just go back and forth and back and forth.

Ronna: And then the disciples come back and they're a little chagrined that Jesus is talking with this woman. She leaves her water jugs behind, runs into town and says to the people, come meet a man who told me everything I've ever done. And they come and they say, now we believe because we've seen him, not because you said anything to us.

Ronna: This is basically the story. All right. So, the way this has been told to us again and again and again and again is, how lucky for her that Jesus happened along and was patient enough to get her to the place of finally admitting her sins. Finally acknowledging what a shameful, sinful woman she was. And really the whole point of the story is to show us Jesus generous willingness to forgive.

Ronna: So that all shame can be erased. Et cetera. Okay. Ugh. Makes me sick to my stomach. Okay. I think that's bullshit. Like, I don't think... That's not what this story is about, and I talk about this in the book, there is no mention of shame anywhere in the text at all, ever. We're the ones that have applied that over time.

Ronna: We meaning the collective men, mostly, always, completely, whatever. Okay. In fact, what we see right there, what we witness in that story, in their conversation, Is the smartest conversation Jesus ever has, at least that's ever recorded, you can read through all four of the Gospels and you will not find a conversation that is this long, that is this in depth, that actually talks about spirituality, theology, history, she was incredibly brilliant.

Ronna: And I think she's funny and she's charismatic and witty and curious. And I think that Jesus was probably just captivated by her. Like, he doesn't have any conversations like this. He's usually talking to either people who are trying to entrap him, or to his disciples who are just constantly not getting it.

Ronna: And he has to say, Really? You still don't understand? Okay, let me tell you another story. How about this parable? So maybe you can understand what I'm trying to say to you. She's tracking all the way through this conversation. So rather than seeing this as Jesus acknowledgement or desire to help her feel her shame enough that she'll repent and be forgiven, I think it's just a really brilliant back and forth.

Ronna: Like any scintillating conversation is, where we jump from topic to topic, we're all over the map talking about all kinds of things. So, if I can see that story as complete anathema to the way that it's been told, if I can see her as a woman who is brilliant and wise and funny and captivating, To the divine?

Ronna: Oh, well, maybe I could be that. Maybe I don't have to sit around and recount all of my mistakes and just cross my fingers and hope that I'll be forgiven. Hope that maybe somebody will see me in a way that releases me from all of this darkness and gloom. Uh, that's not like, ugh, no, thank you. So, her, yeah, there's just so.

Ronna: Her story is such a powerful example of the way that we've taken a story of a woman that is powerful and brilliant and wise and amazing and turned it into a story in which she should be ashamed of herself and Jesus saw that clearly. No, I think that's completely wrong. Completely wrong. 

Monica: And I love, I love too, that you pointed out so few words or it's just such a short story.

Monica: And yet it's, the story is also in like the. Quick acknowledgement that she's had five husbands and how clever in that day and time if you understood the social order, yes, in terms of acceptability, how many times she basically. Recovered in order to get her needs met. Exactly. She must've been wildly intelligent.

Monica: And, and so you bring up these things as well, which I think is so, I was really struck Ronna with how many times we don't question things like that in a narrative or in a ancient text or in a story that. It's like there are stories within the stories, within the stories, if we dare to get curious and look more closely and just kind of question.

Monica: And what I want to invite of our listeners is to really look at stories with new eyes, especially some older stories. You know, where women are mentioned or, you know, their deeds or their, whatever are mentioned. And just to get curious about those unspoken stories, right? Like what we might infer or what we might imagine her story to be, because I think that that's a worthy pursuit.

Ronna: And I would say that as much as I agree with that, as it relates to these stories of women, it's exactly the same process that I think we're invited to go into with our own stories. What are the stories that I have been told or that I've lived that have transmuted themselves into the story I now tell myself?

Ronna: About whether I'm worthy or right. Like this is a story I tell myself now and I need to unravel that enough to be curious about that story in the first place. Why did I interpret it this way? What if there was another way I could see myself 

Monica: And I wondered if you would feel comfortable sharing your personal story there and about the psychology course where the shame rushed back with a vengeance.

Monica: Yeah. If you wanted to, this is exactly to your point here, that you had sent in, your professor had asked, yeah, I'll let you kind of tell the story. 

Ronna: Yeah, so this is when I was in seminary and it was an assignment in one of the classes I was taking that we had to write out our entire sexual history. And turn it in,

Ronna: this was incredibly daunting, and it was an aspect of my life that I never talked about, had completely shut down and felt so much shame around. 

Monica: Can anyone relate is what I want to ask, you know, like any hands raised out there? 

Ronna: Of course, yeah. And I really like this was, you know, mostly from my 20s. And now I'm in my.

Ronna: Forties and married and you know, my life has gone on and I really thought finally, I've kind of put this behind me and my life has moved in a much healthier, better direction. Thank God, right? Anyway, so I have to write this paper and I submit it. And when you submitted it, he promised to give you back the original.

Ronna: And he created those, remember those micro cassettes, those little tiny cassettes. He created a cassette of him talking about what he saw in the paper. He didn't write on the paper, there were no notes, and you just got this tape that he didn't have a copy of so that it was all very private and whatever.

Ronna: And in the tape, he said to me, I have it in the book probably more eloquently than I'm if you want. Oh yeah. Yeah. Say what he said. 

Monica: So I'll never forget his voice, let alone his words in response to what I disclosed. I wonder Ronna, if you might consider your sexual history as a normal, even beautiful part of your story instead of a source of shame.

Monica: It's possible, probable, even that it has made you who you are passionate, full of desire, awake, alive, and profoundly relational. I mean, again, like I want to cry. Isn't that amazing? I mean, at first I actually thought it was creepy that it was a creepy assignment, right? I just have to name that. I was like, Oh, like weird.

Monica: Like who does that in seminary? But it's so interesting. So I want to go on to read this. It would have never occurred to me to view my story, let alone myself without shame. I was clear when a woman exhibits any behavior outside the bounds of what is allowed. Shame is the only and appropriate response to not feel shame, to be shameless.

Monica: That was even worse, but his question opened something up within me. What if shame was never necessary for me to feel in the first place? Ever what if shame was not what others applied to my behavior or what if my secrets were known? What if the divine did not impatiently wish that I would just be honest, repent, and finally turn my life around?

Monica: What if indeed. That would mean that the burden I'd carried for years could be lifted. I would be cut loose from shame's oppressive weight and condemning presence. I could show up in my own life, nothing held back, nothing hidden or withheld. No part of me secreted away like the coolest drink of water on the hottest of days.

Monica: And that. Is included in this incredible story of the woman at the well. Well, speaking of a cool and refreshing drink, this whole book is just that it really is. It's so beautiful. And I haven't even gotten to the,

Monica: to the best part yet, which is chapter 10, the woman of revelation 12. And I promise I'll still read it, share anything you wish about it that you think is important, or you can leave it. More to be revealed, if you would like. 

Ronna: Well, I think you will find it distinctly powerful, just given the Revelation Project, given your own story, all of those things.

Ronna: I will just say, that story brings me to tears every single time I read it. In the text itself, and it's so obscure, like people don't read Revelation. I mean, rarely do we make it through the whole book anyway, but Revelation is weird and twisty and metaphorical, and it's bizarre. Yeah, you mean the book of Revelation.

Ronna: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I could talk about what its intent was and, you know, historically what it was meant, but whatever. It's weird. And so to find this story of a woman that is so glorious and so gorgeous and so powerful at the end of this text, besides the fact that it just undoes me every single time. It feels to me like it's setting right what happens with Eve at the beginning.

Ronna: Like this story is there in many ways to say, none of that was what you should have ever taken from that story. Here is what I want you to understand about. a woman's power, a woman's strength, a woman's courage, a woman's desire to bring forth life and her fierce protection of the things that she loves and has birthed into the world.

Ronna: It's an amazing story that deserves to be told. 

Monica: So great. Okay. Well, more to be revealed on this. I mean, this is why you have to grab this book. And. I just also wanted to get really curious because in the back of the book, you have a whole section dedicated to those who read your book, and it's all about rewriting you claiming your sacred story as your own.

Monica: And I want to ask you if you are doing that with women or if any part of your work is about helping women to do that work. 

Ronna: Yeah. That's basically where that last, that kind of, it's like an afterword or something in the book, isn't it? That it was really me trying to hone down what I am doing all the time in my coaching and spiritual direction work, certainly in my writing in courses I've offered over time, like.

Ronna: At the end of the day, what I keep coming back to with individual clients especially is what are the stories that you've been told that you've, that you've been told, but also that you've lived, how have those become the stories you tell yourself? So how do we kind of deconstruct and unravel those early stories in order to understand?

Ronna: It's like the shame story for me, right? Like, how do you begin to retell those stories in a way that doesn't keep you. Bound or small or silenced or shamed. And then as a third portion, how do we now begin to reimagine your story in a way that invites you into life and power and passion and creativity and sovereignty and all those things.

Ronna: So in many ways, it's exactly the same process that I've taken with the story of Eve or Hagar or the woman at the well. I, you know, try to peel back what we have learned. From this and the messages the story that that means we've been telling ourself and then I say what could it be how do we reimagine and step into what could possibly be so it's just a personalized way of rewriting your own story and yes it's what I do all the time with clients is like that 

Monica: Good good good okay that is that makes so much sense and of course you would be doing that because you Who better to do that than you?

Monica: I love that. I love that so much. Well, this has been such a total delight and I have enjoyed reading your book so much. I'm so honored that you came on the podcast to tell us more and I just, yeah, wanted to invite you now to tell the listener where they can go and learn more about you or any, any final words that you want to, to have to our listener.

Ronna: Yeah, well, first and foremost, thank you. Like I knew this was going to be an awesome conversation because there are so many places of overlap and similar passions. Uh, so thank you for having me on and, um, for reading the book for sure. And for giving me the space to talk about it, I really appreciate it.

Ronna: Easiest place to find me is at my website, which is just my name, ronadietrich. com, same name on both Facebook and Instagram and Substack, which is where I write every week. And of course I'd love it if people ordered the book on. Anywhere you order books online, it's available, and the audio version will be out soon.

Ronna: I got to record that a couple weeks ago, and, uh, so I'm excited for my voice to be the one that gets to tell these stories. 

Monica: Good. And I was gonna show the cover and I've got the galley copy and I know you changed, right? So tell us. Tell us the new. Here's the new one. 

Ronna: Yeah. Rescuing women's stories from the Bible and reclaiming them as our own.

Monica: Perfect. Oh my gosh. I love it. I love it so much. Well, I will cherish it. And If you're watching or listening, actually a copy of Ronna book is also available in this month's and next month's giveaway. So be sure to head over to jointherevelation. com and get yourself on the giveaway list so that you can potentially win this book and so much more.

Monica: Thanks again, Ronna and to my listeners. Just, as always, thank you so much for your generous listening, and until next time, more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us at jointherevelation. com, and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes.

Monica: We thank you for your generous listening, and as always, more to be revealed.