157_Elena Sonnino === Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast. You wear so many hats. You are all the things to all the people, and none of those hats are the true you. The true you is more than one thing. The experience of being alive and inhabiting your joy happens when you invite yourself to belong as a whole. All of you, and I'm gonna add. Even the messy bits. So today you are in for such a treat because my guest is Elena son. Nono. She's a life coach. A Yun yoga teacher and an author. But what most people say about her is that she brings delightful sparks of energy to everything she does, and I can attest that this is the truth. Elena is on a mission to help you transform the walls of survival mode into doors of possibility so that you can step into the spotlight of your life as your most rooted and nourished self. Her work helps you get out of your head and into your body as your source of wisdom and moves you from beyond shoulds and into curiosity and delight. One day at a. at home. Elena enjoys watching the sunrise, tending to her money plants, . You've got a sister there riding her Peloton bike, an impromptu kitchen dance parties. You can learn more about her on her website, which will be in the show notes or by reading her new book, inhabit Your Joy, a book of nudges. The exploration of what happens when we allow and get curious to move us out of survival mode and fixing our body, ourselves and our hearts is what she's all about. And so please join me in welcoming Elena. Hi. Elena: Hi, Monica. I'm, I was tearing up as you were reading that quote just because. All of the things and our conversation prior to pressing record and just, yes, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. And just honored and delighted. Thank you. Monica: Oh, well, you know what? I've just loved this little book of yours and for our listeners, you know, you know those books that kind of act as like an oracle. That's what this one is like for me. I just have loved opening it up and just, I love, like she's got it set up. Like the nudge is on one page and then the actual kind of tool that she is wanting you to kind of like work on is on the next page. So it's just, I love how you laid it out. It is so simple. It's so fresh and it's so useful. My goodness. So tell me first of all, I mean, I always know that we. Teach what we most need to learn. So there's something here I'm making up about what you titled the book Inhabit Your Joy, A book of nudges. Yes. Elena: Well, the first thought that comes to mind is the fact that you're even seeing the book is a bit of a, you know, Oracle almost open it to whatever it is you need is was the intent that I wrote it with. And that is really where I was when I decided to write it. Because for years, you know, I thought, oh, maybe I'll write a book. You know, there are some stories in my life. Maybe I'll start to tell them. And I would get in my own way because I would decide that those stories weren't valuable enough. They weren't, other people had already talked about being a cancer survivor or whatever, whatever it was. And what did I possibly have to add? And when I thought about my life and my work and what helps me connect, to me, it's these three ideas of getting rooted, curious, and alive, almost as benchmarks or not even benchmarks, mile markers along the path. And when I verge away from them, my joy becomes more of a challenge to inhabit Yeah. So as I thought about that, there was that awareness of, okay, these are really kind of my guideposts in a way. They align to my core values and. . And then there was this word inhabit, which felt really true for me. There was a bit of a reckoning that I had in, it was Mother's Day of 2020. For all the reasons and no reasons, I was full of rage, And I remember being down in my home gym and we have these big battle rope and you know, you hear about allowing things to be moved through the body, the emotions, the intensity, the, the joy, all of it. And I said to my husband, I'm like, I'm gonna go downstairs. It is likely I'm going to make some noise. I think it would be a good idea for you to take the dog, go for a walk, So I'm fine. I need you not to worry. I just need you to let me have this moment. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And so I went downstairs and with these battle ropes, just allowing myself to cry and be and scream and all of it. And as I did, there was not, the circumstances hadn't changed. , but there was this kind of coming into my body and this recognition that I gave myself what I needed, I allowed things to move through me, and there was this depth of inhabiting that I had kind of stumbled upon. And so when I put everything together, when I decided, okay, it's time, I thought, how can I get out of my own way, get out of my head and create something and let it be delightful and used in a way that anybody could pick up? And it became very clear that it needed to be a book of nudges so that they could be little small practices because they're how I tend to myself on any given day. And because they were the practices that I knew and used for myself and that I taught and shared with, you know, folks and clients, that that was going to be the way that I could inhabit this element of my voice. Monica: I love that. I love that. And. I, I was like shopping list, battle ropes. Right. Elena: Okay. But side note, don't get the heavy one. Monica: Okay. Elena: So I first used Battle Rope years ago at Ranch Loreta, which is a destination spot. And I loved them. Loved them. So I asked for them for my birthday one year, and my parents got them for me. And because I was like, I don't know what to size, you know, TA ropes, right? So I clicked on something. Well, I got the really heavy ones, , it's like 30 feet, which means there's something about the diameter of them. So we're actually thinking about getting a pair that are slightly lighter because it's. It's just not very insustainable to have the really big ones, but they're amazing to just watch. Monica: Yes. Well, and what it, what it's bringing up for me is I have many sisterhoods, but one particular sisterhood that I'm really thinking of is where there's really some terrific embodiment practices that we've developed in this group. But one or a couple of them put together, literally they have like a shed or a warehouse, and if they see a television, an old television by the side of the road, they bring it to the shed and they , they get together with baseball bats, you know, and they smash dragging rage and smash, and it's a, it's like, I love what you said. You know, it was like, for all the reasons and no reasons at all, it's just like when that is wanting to move through us. It is, it can be, I think so alarming for so many women. Mm-hmm. and they get scared of themselves and yet it's such, it's such an incredible feeling to honor and to allow, there's that word. And it goes back to that quote because it's like the experience of being alive and inhabiting your joy happens when you invite yourself to belong as a whole. All of you, even the messy bits, the ragy part, the despicable face. Elena: Yes. All of it. And that's, and there is such a, and, and this has continued to happen to me, right. Every time that I allow that whole, even, you know, one of my practices this year. Really your explorations has been noticing where I'm doing some hiding where I wanna be strong, right? Which sometimes means not wanting to allow all those parts because they're scary to be felt right. So as much as I know it, I still end up there. And every single time, the thing that brings me back is to come into my body to allow it to exist somewhere, and then give it permission to be expressed in whatever way that means. Which sometimes means battle ropes, which sometimes means a walk outside or a yin yoga shape. But for me there's, yeah, it really is an allowing of wholeness. Monica: Yeah, it really is. Which is hard for so many of us. It's true. You know, and I think we're, I've said over and over again that I really believe that we are in this time right now, where women are reinhabiting ourselves, and so therefore, our body is kind of our ultimate teacher. And you talk about this and to remind women especially that these. Things. These feelings, this body does not need to be fixed, you know? And I think that that is something that is so important and you have a very intimate kind of journey with this experience through your cancer journey. And I would love it if you could share more with us just about how your body kind of became the conduit for healing. Elena: Yeah. So it's true. There is this, right? We're so good. I always say MacGyver was a super fun show to watch the old MacGyver, the new MacGyver, not so much , right? The old MacGyver, right? He could fix anything with some duct tape. We are not one of those things that need to be fixed. And I learned this absolutely as someone who was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma in 1997. I was an otherwise healthy individual and. When that happened, you know, I'm the daughter of a now retired neurosurgeon. I had just gotten engaged to someone whose dad was a radiologist. The family best friend was a cardiologist. I mean, we, everyone went into battle mode and it was really all about getting to that day of survival, which again, not a bad thing. And yet there was very much seen my body as something that absolutely 100% had to be fixed. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And over those 18 months, it became actually pretty clear to me that, yeah, the medicines were helping, but that actually it was my body that gave me eventually what I needed. Because the year and a half later, after I recurred, I ended up having a bone marrow transplant and the cells were my own. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: My body literally gave me the stem cells that it needed to heal, and here I was at 24. You know, you kind of take in that information and then go about your day, your life, and decide you're not gonna take anything for granted. And yet my body kept showing up as that teacher for me, in contrast to all the times that I kept trying to fix it, because I was still very much that person who, you know, it would come close to a time for a CAT scan and I would worry again instead of allow, and then in the process of trying to get pregnant, which we knew was unlikely to be a possibility. In fact, we were told outright that it would never be viable. And we had paid our $50,000 for a donor egg. I became pregnant and I remember the phone call from my doctor that morning. Who said, so I don't know how to tell you this, but you're five and a half weeks pregnant. And I burst into horrible, horrible tears because I had been told that even if I could, it wouldn't be viable. And the doctor very clearly said to me, look, you have two choices. You can grieve or you can celebrate until the day you can't. And I'm celebrating to this day because that little grain of rice turns 18 in six weeks as of, you know, when we're recording. Monica: Wow. Elena: And is a spitfire and all of the things. But it's funny because it took me even years after that to realize my body gave me that. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And it's continued to be, I even so because of my cancer treatments when I was in my early twenties, early menopause, all of these things, it's just funny how I get into the, that alignment of trusting my body. But there was this deep fear still of Yeah, but that's not sustainable. , when's the other shoe gonna drop? So there was always this hidden fixing mode that was happening. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: Until more recently, the last few years when I really got honest with myself about where my body was and the wholeness of it and what that meant in terms of current experiences and deciding that I could keep plowing away and bulldozing my way through and seeing my body as something that couldn't be trusted. Or I could decide to get really curious and see, so how might it be possible to be strong again now and experience pleasure again now instead of always feeling like there was this fixing that needed to happen. . So there was very much a walking the walk and talking, the talk realization for me of, yeah, this is all, you know. Good in terms of knowing it and then really inhabiting that. Monica: Yeah. Elena: Is a journey. Monica: What if you could shave 15 to 20 hours off of your work week with proven copy templates and use relational marketing psychology to drastically increase your impact and your sales results? Sage has tested these methods for selling online for over 10 years and over 400 copywriting projects. They work for anyone with a business idea, including e-commerce folks, course creators, copywriters, coaches, designers, social media, ad managers, and digital service providers. These techniques work even if you wanna get started in online business. Even if technology makes you wanna cry in a corner, and even if you only have 30 minutes a day to implement, the strategies she shares will help you live your life outside of screen time, even if you don't have a big marketing budget. I love it, and I think you'll love it too. You can apply for your two week trial by going to www.sagepolaris.com/monica using code revelation to get started for just $7. With Sage Polaris's, copy template membership. That's www.sagepolaris.com/monica. Then use code Revelation to get started for just $7 with Sage Polaris's. Copy template membership. Well, and I'm really hearing that for you, curiosity is. Is the bridge, is the bridge back to pleasure, joy, always. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I want, I wanna go back to what you said because it, it kind of is like, like this flashing red light for me, and it's this idea of hidden fixing and . I'm over here like, right. It's, if it's hidden, let's, let's go there because I think it can probably be hiding all over my life. And because it's hiding, I don't, I don't know what I don't know. So say more about that. Elena: Yeah. This hidden fixing, I think is interesting because for me at least, it starts with that. You're right. Curiosity is always that bridge for me, I always, I love to say expectations are my kryptonite and curiosity is my antidote Monica: mm-hmm. Elena: For anything and everything. But I, I lean into things with curiosity. Right. What might happen if. and then the hidden here. The hidden fixing are like the weeds in our garden that just kind of start to appear, meaning the best intentions. And then I start to go in and I start to get advice from others. And I, the fixing happens when my curiosity gets quieted by what other people think. Ooh. Or the shoulds, right? So for example, I started getting really curious, one of the circumstances, experiences that I had to contend with for my body, part of my wholeness was that because I was in menopause at such an early age, I started to experience incredible, incredible pain during intimacy, during intercourse, and was told again and again by doctors. This is just the way it is. You can take creams, you can do this. And it was really frustrating. and there was this, I need to be fixed again. And then I met this most amazing angelic, uh, pelvic floor physical therapist who said to me, you are not crazy for feeling this way. This is absolutely your experience. And we started to explore allowing and wholeness and breath work. And we got to a place of, okay, this is probably as far as we can go with just breath work and pt. So if there are certain experiences of pleasure that I wanna be able to explore, maybe we should look at some other things. And so, again, I was curious and I started to go see some other practice, some. Experts and tn doctors and this, so here's the very fine line, right? I went from curiosity and then I'm in this new doctor's office who is telling me, well, this won't work and this won't work, and here's what you should do. And I, Monica was like, oh, hell no, because I could feel my body literally was we, part of what had happened was because I had a hysterectomy, it was almost this like trauma to the womb of trying to protect itself. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And here I was having to, tried to be curious and then again coming at me with No, no this and yes to this and no to that. . And so I called it all off, which was also super scary because then what? And I remember sitting here at my desk, having made this decision, I wasn't gonna go see these doctors anymore and try these experimental treatments and spend, who knows how much money trying to do these things to fix. And I thought, okay, if I weren't trying to fix me, what would I do? And this whackadoodle voice in the back of my head said, belly dancing, . Monica: Oh my God, I love this. Elena: Right? And I, I was like, what? Belly dancing? I mean, look, kitchen dance parties. Yes, but belly dancing . So I, I wrote it down and I left it there, and then the next day I came back, all right, if I'm really gonna be curious, so I, open up Google. And I type in belly dancing near me, and it turns out that there's a belly dancing studio 20 minutes from my house. Who, that weekend. So this was a Friday, that weekend was starting a four week beginner belly dancing series. I signed up like it was instantaneous and that right. I'm not, I'm not a master of belly dancer. Let's be clear . But that experience. Just allowing. And I remember walking into the studio and the teacher, the very first thing she said was, yeah, I'm gonna teach you some choreography. Yeah. I'm gonna teach you some things at the end of the day. I just want you to fall back in love with your body. And I went, Oh yeah. Monica: I mean, you cannot make this shit up. It's so good. It's so good. And it's. It's so, well, there's so much I wanna say, but I love this. I love how you asked, if I were not trying to fix this, what would I do? And the answer came from somewhere inside of you that actually had some other part of you be like, who the hell are you? And what are you even talking about? Right? And then you said, but if I were really gonna be true to curiosity, like if I were gonna be faithful to this thing that I said that I was gonna start doing, then I need to take it a step further. You Googled and it's right there. And this, I mean, this is, I just wanna point out living the Revelation project in action, it's just in a different way, in different language, right? But this is, to me, what you're pointing to is this. It's coming from the inside out versus the other way around for, and it's all, if we were, I'm, I'm speaking to our listeners and really like inviting you to come close now. Because if we were to actually live our lives from the inside out all the time, all the time, what would change is everything. Because I don't, and this goes back to what we were talking about with the hidden fixing all of that. Is this impulse that comes from the outside. It's like this outside, I don't even know what to call it. Bully this outside, compare and despair this outside force that actually wants to have its way with us. And I'm going to say that if everything is happening for us, then that means that what that outside force is trying to get us to get to is to listen to what our insides are telling us. And I'm not talking about the corrupted voices that are inside of you. I'm not talking about those because that's like a corrupted computer chip that actually came from the outside. And those voices inside of us are actually not even bad. They're just there as protectors. They're the voices that come up like my inner perfectionist that will say, you know, like if, if I were to actually visualize her for a moment. Okay. She has, I think I created her when I was around 13. Okay. I think she was created from an experience that happened when I was made fun of. By a group of girls who surrounded me at a Catholic school. We would have what was called color day. And I would always wear the same outfit because I didn't have anything nice that wasn't jeans and we couldn't wear jeans or anything like that. And I was, I had considered myself at that time in my life, a tomboy. And I like to identify with boys because, well, we all know why. So these girls surrounded me and they were like, I love your outfit. And I was kind of like confused because I was like, I, I always wear this outfit like on color day. And they were like, where did you get your, you know, where did you get those corduroys? And where did like, and I didn't realize that they were taunting me. They were actually making fun of me. And so when I figured it out, the shame that came over me, I mean, I can literally feel it in this moment. Mm-hmm. , it's like it rises up in my throat because like this little 12 year old or 13 year old girl was so kind, you know, she was so innocent. She was so just minding her own business. And what happened in that moment was like, I took that shame. That wasn't mi, it wasn't mine. Mm-hmm. , it was like some re reverse alchemy, you know, that came from the outside and kind of came into me through this corrupted way, this mean spirited, whatever that was in that. And I remember going home and having these sobs, this crying episode that was so deep that it literally, like I remembered, it, alarmed my mother at like a biological level and she immediately took me shopping cuz that's how we fixed problems. Mm-hmm. in the mother-daughter world when I was growing up. Clearly that was what was needed. Then we needed to outfit me differently, not deal with the feelings that were coming up, right? Yeah. And so to go back to what she'd be wearing, she'd be wearing the perfect rainbow sweater that all the girls had, you know, and she would be perfectly buttoned up and she would have all the right clothes on and she would say all the right things and she would do all of those things to make sure that she wasn't somehow going to be made a fool of again. Because that would be getting as close to death as she then knew what death was like. It's, it's like this psychological, and now, because I got all emotional, I am totally lost. What were we talking about? Elena: We were talking about the hidden fixing and how it emerges, and in particular how it gets put on us by external. Monica: Yes. Elena: Right. It's those corrupt voices. Yes. And those corrupt voices. Because what I heard in your story is you dressed for color day and act like. You weren't questioning what you were wearing. No. So there was this owning of who you were and your choice, and then there's what these other mean girls put on you. And that's the piece of when we start to absorb those outside expectations. Perceptions or start to compare. Right. That then we get pulled out of, that's almost that hidden. It's like it's almost a Coke scene, right? Yes. Right. And then we land there until we realize it. Monica: Until we realize it. Yeah. And so the voice we're actually looking for is. The inner voice, the inner sage, but like the inner sage for me, is so connected to that innocent 12 year old that I was, because the sage is like this mixture of wisdom and innocence. Elena: Mm-hmm. Monica: You know, it's like the voice that comes up like belly dancing because there's an inner child element to that that's gonna bring you back, always to joy. That's because it's literally the innocence and the joy that brings us closer to the divine and that that is where it's at. Right. It's like, oh my God. Like I'm having a revelation in this moment because, so back to kind of this hidden fixing, I love what you pointed to earlier because you said, you know, it's like the minute I start shitting on myself the minute, right? Like there are these symptoms that come up that get us. that gets you into curiosity mode. Elena: Mm-hmm. Monica: And for me, sometimes it's like, okay, who's in the room right now? Who's driving the bus right now? Because it's not the stage and it's not my inner child, which means, and when I say that, I mean like the eternal child, not the wounded child. Right. Like the eternal child that actually like, is filled with joy and possibility. So when that, when e when the sage and, and the inner child in that mode is not driving my bus, that means one of my inner critics or saboteurs is Yeah. And who mean well. But if it's the perfectionist, I'm fucked. I'm fucked. Elena: Well, it's so true. And I , I've had so many examples from this year, just even in Right. And it's that what's fascinating to me is. The journey that can happen when we listen to that, that purest inner child, right? That, that delighted, uninhibited, joyful, enchanted, curious stuff, right? Yes. That's where, I mean, I've had, so a year and a half ago, a little voice appeared to me that said, you just need to get out of your own way and open a retreat center. And I'd heard this voice before and I was like, again, you again. Okay. And I kind of let it sit there and I would, you know, meditate and visualize and, and just play with the idea. I, I very intentionally didn't, decided not to make any lists anytime. I'd be like, well, where would it be? And this and that. Nope. And I just allowed it to, I was like, okay, how can I create space for those little glimmers? For that enchantment? And then a name emerged. And he was like, okay. I mean, that's a little fine. Flying Lion Sanctuary. I mean, I know where that's pointing me. It's pointing me home. Venice, Italy, the symbol of Venice is the Winged Lion. Okay? I'm still not gonna make any assumptions. And then a painting emerged that I grew up with that I'm now looking at, it's written a painting that my parents had commissioned by an artist who I grew up with. It was over the stairs in our house. It's massive. It's nine and a half feet wide and seven and a half feet tall. And I, in a visualization, saw it very clearly in this feature retreat center in like the common area, right? Didn't tell anybody. And then I get a call, Hey, can you take the painting because it won't fit in our elevator. My parents were moving random. The painting now fits perfectly on my wall. All of this, I still wasn't. Forcing the details because I knew that's where I was gonna start getting into fixing them. Monica: And you were living in more to be revealed. More to be revealed. Elena: 100%. So then we go to Italy this summer and we decided, let's just look for fun. Right? And for fun, my parents are having conversations. And my dad as a retired neurosurgeon, he's a fixer literally by nature, , right? And we land upon a hotel that is on an outer island. It's actually known as Venice's Orchard, this island, and the pictures of the hotel, I mean, the whole thing needs to be redone, but the property, Monica and the trees. And I was like, this is not at all what I thought. And this makes it way more complicated, but sure, let's go see it. So we go and it's amazing. And I could feel, I mean, there is this staircase leading up to this amazing porch. and I could, I could feel myself opening my arms on welcoming future retreaters. Monica: Mm. Elena: So then we go back with the builder, right? So then, so then, so here's what then starts to happen. You add in builders and attorneys and architects and feasibility studies and due diligence. And the idea of raising 5 million or 6 million in investments to create this, I start, I, I landed back in fixing mode because there was suddenly all of these external things and then the doubt creeps in. Uh, well, I mean, maybe now's not the right time, cuz that's, that's my other kryptonite. Oh yeah. For the curiosity. Monica: Oh yeah. Right. Elena: And so part of there is this element, so yesterday actually I was on the drive, I was driving home from Richmond, Virginia. And I had this feeling literally of, I don't have the answers yet, but I feel like. There is no way I'm giving up on my dream. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: I have no idea what it's gonna look like, but I'm driving in the right direction. I could feel there was something about just being pulled and just trust it. Stay in that curiosity. So for me, there is very much this, it's very much a pattern curiosity that enchantment, that magic , allow, allow, allow. And the fixing almost that hidden fixing becomes an amazing teacher for me. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: of, okay, what is it that matters and what doesn't. Monica: Yeah, Elena: That makes sense. Monica: Yeah, it totally makes sense. I mean, it's totally well, and what comes up for me is, again, like, it's just, it's like these. really tricky ways that we can not realize it's happening again. , it's happening again. Yeah. But one of the things that I really, and, and it's always so helpful to kind of like flush some of these examples out because unless we kind of like talk about how these things hide themselves in plain sight, we become really victimized by them. You know, they become like these terrorists in our lives, and I don't know about for you, but for me, my body always is the one to tell me there's a saboteur in the room or there's an inner critic driving the bus. You are shoulding on yourself and it's, you're searching out there versus sourcing from in here inside. So it's like there's this distinction showing up for me and it's searching, which is out there, or sourcing. , which is where I really kind of check in to see who are my resources and my inner allies, and even starting to identify them and realizing that, for example, even the perfectionist can have a voice. She just can't have a voice if I can't see her and she's hiding. Elena: Yeah. Monica: It's like, cuz when I can look and face the perfectionist and know that she's trying to tell me something, she's actually got an element of truth that she wants me to know, but at that point she's not stealing my joy. She's adding to my, my fulfillment and my satisfaction and she's actually co-creating with me versus sabotaging me. Elena: Yeah, I'd love to think of it. , all of those parts of us get a seat at like the table of our, you know, call it board of directors, inner council. Right. You're, they're all our teachers. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And so, yes. See it. Learn, right? The, my part, my true inner saboteur is my anti dependent part that, you know, doesn't, is afraid to a, allow support from others because I think I have to do it all myself. So there's this push-pull I crave belonging. And yet, Monica: Okay , so let's do this for our listeners. Okay. Tell me more about this interdependent or this tell tell me. Anti dependent. Anti dependent. Yeah. Okay. So this anti dependent part of you? Elena: Mm-hmm. Monica: When did, is it a she? Elena: It's a she. Monica: Okay, sure. A she. Great. When did she show up? Elena: I think that I've been playing with this, my awareness of her showed up in the last year. Monica: Okay. Elena: Her existence. Has been for sure. She emerged really strongly when I got sick. Yeah. When I was first diagnosed in my early twenties. But I think she goes back to when I was younger and I was probably in elementary school. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And there was this sense, it was actually, it was early elementary, and there was this fish out of water feeling for me because I kind of lived between two continents. You know, I'm Italian by birth, lived there, moved to the states, was never kind of felt like a fish out of water. And so I craved the support of others, the belonging of others. But as it got close, there was this feeling like, no, I just had to do things myself. I had to figure it out myself, kind of in my, you know, I love my parents and yet there was very much this. You're sad. No, it's okay. Like, buck up. Go play some tennis . Yeah. Go for a walk. Right. You can do anything you set your mind to kind of thing. Monica: Okay. And I love our listeners couldn't see you, but I love that this was your gesture. So what she's doing is she's like pushing out from her body, like, get away from me. Get away from me. Yeah. And so is this like, kind of like a lone wolf figure? Like she's got this, like, so does she have like a, does she have a feeling associated with her? Elena: She does. There is a, she emerges when she's feeling suffocated. Monica: Okay. Elena: Or controlled me. And so the big, the places where she emerged, right. So when, when I was sick and the doctors, you know, would. I wasn't particularly great at asking for support, right. At allowing caregivers to help me and there was very much this, no, I'm just gonna need to be strong and take care. Like, I'll be fine. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: I'll be fine. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: and so Right. People would try to give me their advice and there was very much this. I'm, I'm just gonna be fine. Fast forward to years later, I mean, even most recently I adore my husband and yet there's been this realization of. He just wants to help support me. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: and sometimes his leaning in to support me feels suffocating and I literally push away. Monica: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. Elena: And I, I've made the gesture. I'm like, I just need space. Yeah. I, I just need to breathe. And I, I, I push away and I lean back. And yet that connection, that intimacy is what I crave most. Monica: Yeah. Elena: So there's always been, right. So she, she, there's a suffocated feeling and there's also a very, like, instead of like arms wide open, this like elbows in feet on the ground, like, Let's do this kind of thing. Yeah. From hell or high water. Like bulldozing through. Monica: Yeah. Okay. So like a bulldozing energy and like it becomes like fortress kind of. Elena: Yeah. And what's interesting is I think about, so the, the antidote is this arms wide open softness. So if I think about wings Monica: mm-hmm. Elena: because wings, like if I had a superpower, it would be to fly. And there's this just sense of soaring that has always felt true for me. And so it's almost like tucked in wings. Monica: Yeah. Elena: Like versus that almost kind of wanna punch in a way. Yeah, Monica: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Protect versus arms versus, yeah. Okay. I love this. And then go back to kind of the, you were. New person in a new place, right? At that age. And it was like, you have to do it all yourself, like you're on your own kind of thing. So what is kind of the, do you have a, a verbal cue or something that you say to yourself that's kind of the opposite or the antidote? Because like your body knows that the antidote is to open, but do, does your mind have a kind of like a, a phrase? Elena: Yeah. It's that, to be strong, I allow support. Monica: Okay. Elena: Something along that, that my strength is supported. Right. But this, this allowing, so there's, and, and the wing actually feeling helps me, because if I think about, you know, wings being opened, wind. Is required, right? Yes. Like wings don't just fly. I mean, yeah, you can like flap, but there's, there's this element of needing air, of needing wind to be able to move forward. And so for me, and even there was a mantra that I came across at a spot last year randomly, and it said, the more rooted I am, the higher I fly Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And so if I think about that rooted in terms of even the support that's around me, yeah. Then I can open my wings and, and I even think about it in terms of the body, right? To be able to open my wings, my spine has to be, and my core have to be able to support me mm-hmm. so that it's really, it's almost a felt sense instead of, um, a mental thought of when I'm recognizing of just almost leaning in and feeling the support of my body to say, okay, it's okay to open. It's okay to allow in. Monica: I love that. I love that there's this, this thing coming up for me too because it's, it's those moments where, you know, it's like some kind of a trigger that obviously there's some kind of fear element that's associated with it, and then there's this kind of separation where we kind of like have to then remember it all gets to belong and how can I free up my body and my mind in this moment, you know, to kind of like get back into the flow because it's a very physical experience and it's also a mental experience. Elena: Yes. And as you were saying that, it occurred to me, there is a thought that helps me kind of bridge and it's that kind of probably inspired by the work of Kristen Neff in terms of self-compassion of, of course I feel this way. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: Right. So before I can open up there, there ha back to the battle ropes or any of these things, but there's, there has to be an acknowledgement. Of what it is I'm feeling seeing it. That's been, Monica: and I love that it's self approval. Yeah, of course. I feel this way, right? Like, it's okay, it's okay, Elena: It's okay. And from there, and that's the difference. Even to go back to the fixing mode, if I'm allowing, like of course I feel this way. Then I can feel supported and open up and curious again versus you shouldn't be feeling this way. Right. Get over it. Like, you know, you know better. You should be able to get yourself out of this. By now, you're a life coach. I mean, and a yoga teacher, like what do you. Real life . Monica: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. So beautiful. Thank you for playing with me in that way, because I think sometimes it's just so helpful. It's helpful to me. I think it's helpful to our listeners. It's probably helpful to you too, right? To just be like, yeah, yeah. How does this work? Because I think sometimes it just kind of happens in our daily life and it's like, let's break this down. What does this really look like and how does it show up? And how do we free ourselves from it? But you know, and this is how we inhabit our joy, Elena: Right? And completely. And I think, you know, that anti dependent part, for me, I love talking about it . And somebody gives my husband's like, are we gonna talk about that part again? When when things come up? He's like, are you doing that thing? I'm like, I am. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And you know, there's that suffocating. But the other, the other piece, and this is I think as I was driving towards this feeling of the right direction yesterday, there's the realization of fear, right? When I was sick. , I would've told you I wasn't afraid. Mm-hmm. Which is of course, a crock, but Right. But that anti dependent part wouldn't allow herself to feel afraid. And the bulldozing though, the fixed scene is almost a, it's a numbness to the fear. Mm-hmm. . And so whether, you know, the, the, even back to, you know, as that belly dancing, that moment of, okay, if I wasn't, if I was just gonna be curious, I had to notice that I had this deep fear around being, you know, 48 and not knowing how to experience or give pleasure anymore in my body. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Right. And so just seeing that and deciding, okay, I hear you. I see you, I feel you. And, and so there's this just element, I think whenever we can name. It doesn't feel great . I mean, who wants to name it and feel it, but if we don't, we're just band-aiding it. Monica: That's right. Well, and I wanna go back to what you said about pleasure because you know, I have a dear friend that is so, she's so committed to this work and like you very much has her own way of getting there. But one of the things that she talks about is this idea of we have allowed everybody out there as it's as if there's a dial right here, right on our chest. And it's as if we've been allowing everybody out in the world to like turn the dial, including on our pleasure. Like as if the pleasure comes from out there versus nobody is allowed to touch this dial. It only belongs to me. and I am the only one that gets to source my pleasure from the inside out. And a lot of women and men, but a lot of women especially don't know that their pleasure belongs to them. It's not something that just happens to them. Do you've got any thoughts on that? Elena: Oh, so many , so many. My first thought is I really need to just somehow invite my 18 year old daughter to have some conversations before, right? Because a whole different conversation. , that was the first thing that came to mind, is I really hope that she, as she grows, finds that source within her. Yes. And owns that. Right? So, but that's the piece. I mean, I think that's my thought is really owning and celebrating that power that we have inside of us to create and inhabit pleasure. Right. To experience it. And that it, it gets to look. However we want it to look. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: and it gets to feel however we need it or want it to feel. But there is that the possibilities really are limitless if we give ourselves permission and part of that, I mean, it has to start right. If we're gonna be that dial for ourselves. I think my, my thought is we have to be connected to ourselves. We have to be at home within ourselves. We can't do it if we're a stranger to ourselves. Yeah. If we're not fluent in the language of us and in the truths that make us, us, and, and which means also being really. Nourishing tending to our bodies. Right. It, it comes back to the body. Monica: It comes, it always comes back to the body. Always, always comes back to the body. And, uh, yeah. And not in the way we've been trained to think about it. For sure. Elena: No. Yeah. And you know, as you said that, right, one of my practices often is movement, right? Movement helps me move things around. It helps me experience, and I, I love my peloton. And yet what I realized, I broke my wrist actually the day the book launched, , of course. Fascinating, fascinating. I mean, this, this year has been a great teacher and my right wrist, and I'm right-handed. And there was this experience of needing to allow my wrist to heal and all of my old go-to practices, my workouts, my journaling, anything suddenly, Weren't accessible in the same way. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: and I started thinking about, and I've always felt this way in terms of about movement in and out of fixing in different seasons in my life of could I allow movement to be nourishing and tending versus a workout, right. Something could I come in, build up versus doing something because somebody else thinks I should or I think I should. And this season, this year, of really needing to listen, I had to decide, okay, so how am I going to nourish myself with movement instead of putting a workout on my to-do list? Yeah. Right. And so that how we tend to our body, to me this year has really been a fascinating exploration. And it's interesting because in contrast, when Covid began, the only way that I knew to take care of me was to actually really like dig in to my movement because that felt like I was gonna create space within me. And so I was actually one of those people who, when Covid happened, I lost weight. I lost 25 pounds. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: And then my body was like, okay, but now that's not what you need anymore. Monica: Mm-hmm. Elena: So I really, really had to listen to the cues and those that required both a reprogramming and an allowing, it was almost like a dialect. If I think about kind of our body speaking to us in, in the language of our body, it was as if it had shifted slightly to a different dialect and was saying, Hmm, a little bit of less of this than, and a little bit more of this. And it was softer. Monica: I love that you noticed that. You know, like, and it was softer, right? Because there are also these nuances that show up in these moments, and it's. again, the noticing and the curiosity that's, that becomes the guide. Elena: Yeah. And so one of my questions now, you know, I movement is part of it helps me be rooted in me. And, but now I ask myself the question, you know, I'll create space for it in my schedule and they'll say, okay, what, what movement would feel most delicious today? Right. So, you know, today it was actually okay, I had some time, but really I just wanna take an extra long walk with a dog. I wanna feel mm-hmm. the, the air and the wind and the sunshine on me, you know, and, and, and an extra yin shape this morning. It wasn't just allowing it to emerge as it wants to versus thinking. It has to only look one way. Right. And our brain knows that, but it's in practice, harder to follow through because there's, there's a trust then element of can I trust my body to know what it means? and become faithful to listening to that and committed and devoted to that. It's a very different level for me, um, place for me, and I'm, it has helped me connect to pleasure and joy and inhabit those elements within myself. I think it's a new, kind of some cellular levels that, you know, you get to and then you get to go back to . Monica: Yeah. Well, one of the words that's actually coming up for me is indulgent, but in a really, in the best possible way, because I think that we can tend to think that indulging ourselves is bad. It's just, it's part of that conditioning, you know, because the way that it's been, talked about is this, if like you're very self-indulgent or whatever it is, it's like, thank you, it's true. You know, like, yeah, yes. More of that, right? Are you like, why would you shame me for that? It's like we're just so programmed to deprive ourselves to limit there's limits, you know? Like suddenly, right? The part that wants to come out is suddenly like the pragmatic father voice, you know, or whatever the thing is. But I'm like, who is that? Who is that part that comes out and wants to make it? So that wants to do it solo, prove she can. And so I just get back to curiosity. I just get so curious now when I hear, or I, or I kind of notice those other aspects to myself that are not allowing Elena: Yeah, well it's, and you're right, right, this self-indulgent, indulgent, it's kind of like according to who, right? Because one of the things I've realized is it is a gift to be able, I mean, asking for what you want need, knowing what it is you need, asking for it, and asking for what you want. There's a one, it's one thing to ask for what you think you need, but then what you want, right? That desire, and I've started to really realize that it is a gift that we give to those that care about us and that we care about. To be explicit about asking for what it is we need and want, and allowing them to support us to create space for that, right? Because they want those people, the ones that are, you know, the truest of the true. They would just wanna be able to support us. And so to be able to say, Hey, I need this, or I need space for this is a gift that I can give others to be able to support me. Yes. And it starts with that place of, yeah, this is what I want. I'm gonna own it. Like, enough. I mean, it's so silly. During last year, the year before, one of the things, you know, I was getting ready in the morning and I, I love this question of what would feel delicious and, and it has nothing to do with food , right? I mean, sometimes it can, but I remember the answer that emerged was to wear my great-grandmother's pearls . And these were pearls that were in a red velvet bag. And I remember as, as this emerged in my heart, I remembered my mom saying to me once that pearls needed to be worn to maintain their luster. I dunno if that's actually true, but I was like, oh, ok. So I put the, and this is a three strand, it's, it's a short piece. It's, I'm not wearing it now because it needs to be loose stranded. A pearl broke, but I put it on. And Monica, it was this because it was my great-grandmother's, right? There were literally ancestors that were supporting me. Every time I wore this, I wore that necklace. Every single day. I mean, there was once I was like, okay, maybe gardening, maybe I should have taken this off when I was gardening . I didn't wear it when I was working out right. Or exercising or moving something that was gonna be sweat. But I wore it. I mean, I could have been like a ripped t-shirt and I had my pearls on because it just felt so supported. And some might have looked at and been like, who are you to wear your pearls Monica: while you're gardening or Elena: walking the dog? Like, and yet it was exactly what felt true for me. Monica: Yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You know, do you remember, I don't know why this is coming in right now, but do you remember that like poem, like when I age, I'm gonna wear a purple Hat? Like that poem was all about permission, permission, permission. And it seemed. I just remember feeling like, well that's okay cuz it's out there. And you know, when you, when you get old, when you, then you really start giving yourself permission to just be, be eccentric or be this or be that. It's just so funny. It just becomes like this again, like this, well that's okay cuz it's, then it's there. But when we're kind of in our daily lives and we realize like that, that purple ha you can, that there isn't a right way, there's your way and what is bringing you joy and what is allowing you to inhabit yourself and where can you reclaim all of the parts of yourself that you've kicked outta the garden, that you've disallowed, that you've disembodied from, that are. still really the parts that are actually crying out to come home. Elena: Yeah. And what strikes me is if we don't create space to listen and allow and honor and tend to those parts, then who else Monica: will then who else will? And they're never gonna stop. They're never gonna stop crying out. So let's just get on it, obviously. Elena: Right. Let's do it. Let's fix. No, not fix it. Get on it. . Monica: Right. It's just allowing, I mean, that's the beauty of it. Elena: And it's not a light switch. Right. I mean, I believe Right. It's a practice, which means that on Sundays it's gonna be easier, is easier. On Sundays it's gonna be harder, but it's about coming back to it and, and every time we come back to the practice, it's, it is a coming home. Yeah. Monica: It is a coming home. Well, I have loved this conversation so much. I am so grateful. I'm so grateful that we got to play in this way. And I'm so, I feel like you're such a, you're such a partner in, in all things, playful and allowing. And so I wondered if you had, cuz now I'm curious about Italy. Like, do we have a retreat center that we're going to Like what's happening and where can you guide us and how can we learn more? And if you haven't done Italy yet, let's like, let's, let's play. Elena: So the short answer is Italy is in process. Um, meaning need to decide. We're, we're waiting on an estimate from an architect, but at the end of the day, I need to just show up and trust and I'm like sweating as I say this and kind of create. An investment for, uh, the offer, and which I think I'm gonna kinda do. I wanna do it. Part of this is doing it my own way, right? Because the attorney, everyone's like, do it this way, do it that way. I'm like, and the pitch decks and the books of how to pitch investors, I'm like, ah. So I think I'm gonna actually crowdfund the 10% for an offer and then start amazing to maybe pre-sell. Once we have an offer in place and that it's been accepted, then start looking at even like pre-selling some weeks. And this would be, it would take about two years probably for construction to, to be completed and then, and find investors for, for the rest. So the Flying Line sanctuary, stay tuned. And in the meantime, you know, there are other retreats, but for me it is, it is, I'm, I'm saying it here and with you in partnership, that and what the, the thing that I feel about it is, I need to allow, it's a little bit like what my doctor said to me. Mm. Yeah. That I have two choices I can grieve, which in this case would be decide that it's not possible or celebrate mm-hmm. and allow this until the day I can't. Ah. And so this idea of whether it's this particular property or another, just knowing that I am creating space for this because it very much feels like the legacy and of that, that I wanna create in the world. And so, yes. So stay tuned. Monica: More to be revealed. Right. I love that. And for our listeners, I just wanna kind of read you this last, well it's not last, but it's, it's actually in the beginning of her book, but it will kind of like round out our conversation today because I think it's such a beautiful question and I wanted to leave you with this so, What do you know in this moment? Overthinking is a pattern that gets in our way and creates a spin cycle that takes us away from our truth. This nudge is for you if you ever get caught up in what ifs. And uncertainty. Getting rooted is about being present in the moment, noticing what is here for you now, instead of thinking about what happened yesterday or what might happen tomorrow. Being rooted in the moment allows you to notice the three butterflies that are flying outside your window or the way your heart speeds up when you're doing something you love. It is an invitation to feel the feels and discern what is true in the moment and where your brain is turning a moment into an epic novel of what ifs. So grab a journal and ask yourself, what do I know for sure in this moment? Thank you again. It's been such a wonderful conversation, and we'll be sure to put all of Elena's links in the show notes. And until next time, more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.