120_Vanessa_Chakour
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Vanessa: I more interested in, in, in cultures that had had the relationship with land, I felt like Western cultures didn't but when I began to really dig into my ancestral roots, I realized that's not true. You know, I Gaelic pre-Christian Gaelic culture is so and Celtic culture and has such rich earth based cosmology.

And so I began to go back to Scotland and study that and it really. Something happened to me. Like, I just felt so much more grounded and like, almost like a plug it plugged in. When I, when I stepped on that land, I just felt like a surge of energy, almost like I plugged into my ancestral roots. That chapter also talks about healing.

My relationship with my father. More ancient root systems that we come from and can connect to you. But then there's, you know, we also have these disconnects from different family members or, or root systems we need to mend.
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the revelation project podcast.

I'm with a very special guests today that I'm so proud to bring her work to this conversation. Her name is Vanessa Chakour. Vanessa is an herbalist, a visual artist, rewilding educator, former pro boxer, environmental activist, and founder of Sacred Warrior, a multi-disciplinary educational and experiential school offering plant medicine, wildlife conservation, and meditation through courses, workshops, and retreats with a diverse group of teachers, sacred warriors, rewilding retreats are in partnership with the Wolf conservation center in New York, the Jaguar rescue center in Costa Rica and Alladale wilderness reserve in the Scottish Highlands.

Vanessa has shared her work as a speaker. At the United Nations Brown University and the Muhammad Ali center, and as a visual artist in galleries from Tribeca to Chelsea, she lives in Western, Massachusetts, and she teaches around the world. And today we're here to talk about her incredible new book called Awakening Artemis, deepening intimacy with the living earth and reclaiming our wild nature.

Hi Vanessa. 

Vanessa: Hi, I'm very excited to be I'm doing well.

Monica: I, uh, so for our listeners, I found out about Vanessa's work through my former business partner, Andrea Willits and she actually sent me your book for my birthday, which was absolutely amazing. And I have enjoyed reading it so much and I. I don't even know where to start.

I love it so much, but I even loved the artwork. And by the way, did you do that? Because I'm reading that you're an artist you did. 

Vanessa: I did. Yes, I did. I illustrated all the plans, which was an interesting practice because my art has become very abstract. It had been years inside attempted to draw from life.

So that was another way of building intimacy with the plants is really, really sitting with them and studying them. And so, yeah, so true. All of the plants as well. 

Monica: Unbelievable. Well, I absolutely love your book and I don't say that lightly. Yeah, I really do. So I would love to just really start out by helping our listeners kind of understand more about what your inspiration was for writing the book, but let's first start with the title awakening Artemis.

Cause I feel like it's so potent. 

Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's so many. Layers to the title. The first, probably the most obvious one to people is, is the goddess Artemis, who is the Greek moon goddess. She's a Huntress, a defender of nature and of women and of the young. And she seeks vengeance on anyone who violates any of the life under her care.

And when I was researching the book and Artemis, I became so fascinated by the fact that were mythical guardians of the land. We're honored and, and where people believed in them, the land was protected. So the so-called mythical guardians became literal guardians of the land. Um, because for example, where people believed our demands kind of ruled mountain sides or waterways people would not dare harm the land under her watch.

Monica: I couldn't agree more. It's like, that's what we need to do right now. And I love, I was actually. I always geek out over words, but love how right. Potent potential is these words that are sometimes nestled into each other. And you start to understand, you know, the impact of as, as women. I think what we're in is a time of not only great revelation, but a time of really stepping into our full potential.

And there's that potency. I think that. All exploring as we are doing what I call the process of unbecoming from all of the social conditioning. Yeah. I just, I absolutely love as well. Just the way that you've weaved awakening Artemis kind of through the book. And actually you had mentioned mugwort and that might be a great place to dive a little bit more deeply too, because I think the way that you really start to express and explain the relationship that you have with that particular plant and why, um, we'll also tell the bit of the story.

Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. 

Well, I think I should mention is that, you know, as an herbalist I've really come to value the. Just say history and lore and, and life of so-called weeds and common plants, the plants that are, have always been there right under my feet that I like many people were blind to, you know, I think that, like you said, the power of words, right?

Just calling something a weed and seeing something as being a weed to shifts our perception of the land around us, you know, like, oh, it's still weed. And when I, when I began to study herbalism, those are the first plants I learned about. And it completely changed my perception of a land around me. And at the time I was living in Brooklyn and mugwort is growing through the cracks in the sidewalk growing throughout prospect park.

But this plant also grows throughout the world in temperate regions, but there's, there's species of Artemisa throughout the world and in all different environments. And so this is a. Uh, presence, right? If you think about it in that way, this like ubiquitous, prolific tenacious presence in nature that keeps coming back, it's relentless grows via rhizome and grown these dense thickets between often between wild and domesticated spaces, almost like has the energy of being a protective plant in a way.

So when I was, when I began working with my cohort, I would sit with a plant when one of my, my first one of my first or both, some teachers, Robyn Rose Bennett had me an all, all of the students ally with a particular plan pro entire year. And what that meant and mugger was my plant is spending time with a plant and working with a plant and all the different ways that you could possibly work with a plan and spend and it's medicine and doing so before.

Looking it up. So, you know, not being influenced by what other people say is true. You know, I really wanted to experience the plant medicine firsthand without being, you know, Yeah, just to influence by, but what the plant's medicine is supposed to do to me. And so I've, I've come to the, you laborious medicine is the medicine of self confrontation.

And I begin the book with a car accident that fractured my back and my neck. And I see that sort of, as my initiation onto my path appealing, you know, as a child, I was very, very connected to nature as I feel many of us are. And, and then as a teenager, I, I really wanted to fit in and got away from myself.

I began to disconnect from my body because of past trauma and the car accident when I was 16, really just broke everything open. And I was forced to sit with myself. And while I didn't know Mugwort at the time, the experience was an experience of self confrontation. I couldn't move literally. And so I was confronted with myself.

I had no means of escape and one of the ways that mugwort works as a medicine it's opponent, and what's called an origin. So a plant that enhances the realm of dreaming and helping us see what we need to heal through the realm of dreams, which is something I could speak to more also. Helping us to digest better experiences, as well as helping our literal digestive system, a plant that moves stagnant energy as an amended.

Agog so helping us, you know, if there's tension in our reproductive system in particular where we're not menstruating, this was used by midwives to induce labor calms, the nervous system, which is obviously something that gets hyper-stimulated would become hypervigilant when we have after trauma. So this, this plant really, really address a lot of the things I was grappling with when I, when I learned about the plant and I revisited past trauma when I began working with mugwort and cleared a lot of that out.

So just like, just like the potency of the word Artemis mugwort holds a lot for me. And, you know, symbolically as a plant that is, has really helped me move through. Move through trauma, but also just keeps me in check in a way. And the nice thing about it is that this plant grows everywhere around me.

So there's this recognition everywhere I go, this reminder, everywhere I go. 

Monica: Yeah. I'm here. I'm with you. Yeah. And there's that? I love to what you were saying about that confronting energy rate, but also there's a, there I'm also hearing a tenderness there. There's a way that you're held with it. Yes. That, that also has this.

This compassion. And I actually made a note here specifically because I found it really interesting like that it's used to release tension that may have accumulated in an effort to protect us, to protect ourselves. And that that's one of these areas where I know women specifically, I'm sure men too, but where women will complain a lot of, a lot of tension in the hips, in the shoulders, in the neck region.

And so, you know, it's like mugwort, you know, like who knew and that there's all of these other applications. So tell me more about the dreams because I've recently. Been really, really kind of geeking out on how incredible the dream world is and how, again, there's all of these ways that we have been taught to disregard the dream world.

And in fact, I'll never forget my ex husband, which it's so funny because we, he will still kind of like use some of the terms that has his very Southern family used growing up. And one of them was, don't tell your dreams before breakfast, because of course, like you were going to forget that. And it w it's I just found that fascinating.

I love when my kids come out of their bedrooms and they're like, oh my God, I had this crazy dream last night. And I'm like, tell me about it. Yeah. And I've just started really paying attention to my dreams and, uh, babies show up in my dreams all the time lately. Like I maybe 10 different dreams with babies in them.

Vanessa: Interesting. 

Monica: I know. So I'm just paying attention in a whole new way. Tell me more about when you said I can talk more about dreams. What, what is there I'm curious? Well, 

Vanessa: I, from in my own experience, I've always had very vivid dreams as long as I can remember. So I'd just been fascinated by them, you know, that they come through in stories, there's storytelling, you know?

And, uh, so I just found them to be an amazing creative resource. And then when I had the car accident, I began having nightmare. And it was like, it was almost like all of this. Like I, you know, like I mentioned, I fractured my back and my neck and it was almost like, as though I ruptured like all of this tension I was holding, I was tamping down these experiences.

I didn't want to see. And it was almost like everything burst open. That's literally what it felt like. And then I was just having a nightmare after nightmare, nightmare after nightmare. And so that was another kind of. I almost had to began to work with my dreams in order to get a handle on them. So I began to write them down.

I started getting books on, on dreaming and lucid dreaming to, to gain control of the dream realm in a way. But also I realized, and again, this, you know, when I was 16, I didn't realize everything that was going on. A lot of it is in retrospect, 

Monica: Of course. Yeah. 

Vanessa: So my dreams were showing me things I needed to see in order to heal.

And I, when I began working with my dreams, I began to grapple with memories of sexual assault and, and things. I just had pushed away and forgotten. So my dreams have been. Kind of my, my guides in a way, but like, you need to look at this, you need to deal with this. And until you do that, this is going to be, you're going to be disconnected from some aspect of yourself.

So that period of time showed me the value of dreaming and the relationship between dreaming and healing. And it's interesting because I'm open to things, but I'm also a skeptic. And when I heard about my word as a dreaming ally, because I've had such vivid dreams and I'm fascinated by the dream realm, I was excited to try it, but I was also skeptical.

I'm like, ah, how can a plan affect your dream life? But this plant does, and I've seen it over and over and over again as a teacher, you know, with, with colleagues, with other students. And again, people who are skeptical about it. And the way that this appeared for me was. Was showing me another layer of the trauma.

I thought I was done processing. I, you know, I have so many, like in my bio, you mentioned all the things that I've done in my life. To me, all of those things, whether it's visual, art, boxing, writing, those have all been methods of healing and boxing was huge methods of healing in terms of reclaiming my body, getting anger out.

And then it was just like one thing led to another led to another. And I was like, oh, let me see if I have a second to turn pro. But initially it was just a method of releasing trauma in a way. It was also a spiritual practice for me. It was, I really, it was just that you have to absolutely be in the present moment, you know, when you're boxing.

So, you know, all of these things have been healing modalities for me. Yeah. And so going back and circling back to dreaming, then dreams always show up and show me what it is that I need to look at. And, and there's many plants that can, can be useful in the dream moment. Just not just mugwort, but they're just incredible healing tools.

And just, I, I think they're, like you said, they're incredibly valuable and we often dismiss them, but I think they, they show us sometimes things we don't want to say, but just what's. You know, under those like many layers of, of consciousness. 

Monica: Well, and I think when you're actively seeking healing modalities, it's not like you think about dreaming as one of those healing modalities.

And so I was really paying attention when. Writing about how you would just put the tincture by your bed. And right before bed drop a couple of drops under your tongue and go into the dream world. And I'm like, even though I remember, you know, these babies that are showing up in the dreams, which just, again makes me so curious.

And I, you know, what I've read is that are about, in some cases, a new creation and that kind of nurturing that you have to do with your new creations. But I think there's other things that I'm so disconnected to. And oftentimes most times, in fact, I wake up and I don't remember anything. So I'm excited to start to start using it.

I also picked up on a quote in this mugwort chapter that said where there is a scar, there is a door. 

Vanessa: That is from women who run with the wolves. Yeah. 

Monica: I just, I just loved that. It gave me the ch the chills and then, and then you go into, and so for our listeners, what I love so much about this book is how Vanessa talks about.

Each chapter is kind of a relationship to a plant and what the plant brought her in terms of healing and the different things that that plant represents. And then she can have a series of different revelations within each chapter around that specific plant or what that plant represents. So I was just geeking out over the whole thing, but I loved them the next chapter, because for me again, like what I loved about the, Yew, the Yew tree am I pronouncing that correctly and it's all about belonging.

And I loved what you had said about how, again, like this is where. You started to kind of realize, as you were working with this particular plant that your root systems were now, when we think of root systems, we think of trees. But when we think about ourselves as human beings, it's like, what are our root systems?

Who are ancestors? Where do we really come from? You know, what land are we occupying? All of the ways that that actually accounts for our sense of belonging in the world. So I would love if you could share a little bit about that. 

Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely. So the first one thing I want to mention too, is the first section of the book.

The first five chapters really deal with these big themes. I felt were more important to address. And then the second part of the book really is more chronological. And so as an herbalist, I, I felt it was really important to dig into my own ancestral roots of traditional medicine in order to really practice plant medicine with an, from a place of integrity.

And I became an environmental activist really because I had a deep grief around just the way that our species treats the earth, obviously not everyone, but there was a sense of just. Yeah, I just, I felt it as, as a kid, you know, and there was no place really to put it within Western culture, at least, you know, I, I didn't think so.

And so when I started to explore a realism, I started to learn about man's sexual roots, because a lot of the plants I was working with so-called weeds are plants that grow, um, in Scotland, for example, which is a large part of my ancestry and like many people here in the so-called United States are a mix of cultures, which I am too.

But the majority of my, my background is Scottish. And I began to feel really, really drawn to Scotland. And I began to realize it's like, oh my gosh, I'm so disconnected from my root systems, from my ancestral roots. I didn't, I dismiss them honestly. You know, I didn't think that they were important growing up.

I more interested in, in, in cultures that had had the relationship with land, I felt like Western cultures didn't but when I began to really dig into my ancestral roots, I realized that's not true. You know, I Gaelic pre-Christian Gaelic culture is so and Celtic culture and has such rich earth based cosmology.

And so I began to go back to Scotland and study that and it really. Something happened to me. Like, I just felt so much more grounded and like, almost like a plug it plugged in. When I, when I stepped on that land, I just felt like a surge of energy, almost like I plugged into my ancestral roots. That chapter also talks about healing.

My relationship with my father. More ancient root systems that we come from and can connect to you. But then there's, you know, we also have these disconnects from different family members or, or root systems we need to mend. And that was the big one for me that I needed to reconnect to and heal. And so it was interesting because I actually hadn't planned to write about Nutri, but I was inspired to because when I was really reconnecting with my father again, and we've had moments of reconnection throughout the years, but this was a really pivotal reconnection.

And we had come together because my aunt had recently died of cancer. And the yew tree Taxol from the yew tree is using chemotherapy treats. And her Memorial service was in Cambridge around Harvard square. This is my, my father and I were walking around Harvard square and, and all these huge trees are, were like clipped until he used rectangular hydros.

And I had just come back from Scotland where I had visited the 14 value, which is said to be about 5,000 years old, this like ancient, ancient, ancient tree. That's really connected to Celtic and Gaelic culture. And then here are these trees that we clip into these hedgerows and I, it just, it just, all of it hit me at once.

You know, this, this the way we treat these ancient trees, how disconnected we are from the symbolism of these ancient beings that were really revered in Celtic culture and Gaelic culture in many cultures, um, native American culture as well, especially the Pacific yew. And it just really hit me like a ton of bricks, you know, the sadness of what we've lost.

And so I, I, I started that chapter then and, um, and really wove it all together. And, you know how I was just like really digging into, like, how do we. How can we feel a sense of belonging when we are, many of us are disconnected from our ancestral roots when we're living on land, that is, you know, as settlers, you know, and, and grappling with all of the trauma around that, how do we find a sense of belonging and relationship with land?

And so, you know, I don't have the answers, but, but I just know that I'm still on that journey of healing. And I feel as I feel many of us are, and I shared some, some stories from my students and connect them with our ancestral roots, even if we're not living on the land of our ancestors can be incredibly healing.

Monica: Yeah. And I'm just learning that too. I'm very, very kind of in that part of my journey right now. And in this chapter, you also talk a lot about decolonizing and also weave throughout is kind of the history of how we got here. Yeah. And one. You know, I know you're quoting someone in this, but I was again, like so drawn to some of these questions that you pose as well as some of the people that you quoted.

And one, I think was John Donahue. When you said, when you quoted him and said, when you steal a people's language, you leave their soul bewildered. And the same when we colonized, like all of these ways, We think about colonization or we don't think about colonization and how they've impacted us in this way.

That actually like, we, if we look at them through the lens of restoring our broken roots and rewilding our ancestral landscapes, it's like, yes, you know, like that, when you start to see it's like, I often like will turn things on their heads and I love how you did that. Like looking at these really kind of, it can be so heady, but you kind of bring it back to earth.

Everything that you know is kind of like gets lost up in the head region, which I love so much because it really anchors in like, oh yeah. And the other thing you said, which I loved. You were talking about the Yew trees, because again, when something has been shaped into beautiful to us, right. Some aesthetic in the modern world, it's like, if we don't and we don't even know the names of them, first of all, how do we notice that they exist?

If we don't notice that they'll exist, how will we know when they're missing? I was like, Mic drop. And then also that when we name, we notice that powerful way that naming things brings them alive within us. And that animating force of naming something that, that, again, with language, I think of the logos, I think about creation where we're kind of coming into.

Awareness now. And so I just, I just loved that so much. It's just, it's obviously all of my listeners can see that I really love this book so much. I cannot wait for you all to get your hands on it. And then you go into the apple tree and the apples connection to the goddess. And by the way, I've been allergic to apples.

I just found out and I'm like, oh my gosh. 

Vanessa: Oh, interesting. 

Monica: Yeah. But with hives, with an oral allergy, and of course my connection to the goddess, it's also perfect. So I'm like, I got to dig into that deeper. Like I just had so many revelations while I was reading this book. So what I want to talk about next and you pipe into, because you can take this wherever you wish.

I'm fascinated. I want to know more. From you about, like, tell me a little bit more just about what you are positing or positioning for us to see as what's possible in not only reading your work in this book, but also like how to remember our relationships to, and our interconnectedness with all of these things around us, all of these plants and minerals and animals.

Vanessa: Yeah. I mean the underlying mission of the book and also of sacred warrior, um, that you mentioned in, in my bio is healing the illusion of separation from nature. And when we're animals, you know, sometimes we, we often place ourself above other animals, but ultimately we're animals. We're part of nature and we're destroying our own environment.

It's absolutely insane. And I. It's incredible. Cause I, I, like I mentioned, you know, I worked as environmental activists for many years and, and, and I had it to disconnect from land until I learned about the, uh, the common plants and the weeds and their potency and, and their role in the ecosystem. I think just as much as the book is about all the things you said in my journey of healing, it's also about relationships and I've come, I believe, and I've seen this in my own life and the way that developing this relationship with the land and also of the ecosystem, that is my body, which I see as in it just part of the whole, just how much more content I feel, um, how much, you know, when I, when I, as I've built relationship with land, I fall in love with the land and that moves me to want to take better care of the land and.

I just see that in others. And I just feel like if we, if we all come to that place, it's a very, it's, it's incredibly complicated, but it's also very simple, you know, we'll ideally cease to spray these so-called weeds, you know, ground ourselves in our environments, cease to, you know, try and tame, nature, creating these like carpet, like lawns that are absolutely toxic and grow our own food.

You know, they're, they're, they're all these things that can completely change everything. And our relationship with the land and the health of our environment and our own health and wellbeing that we have the capacity to do right now. And so we don't have to necessarily, you know, create these, all these new technologies.

To heal climate change and nature. We have to come back to the simplicity of many of our indigenous practices, no matter where we're from, like to this place of harmony with nature. So that is my, my hope, you know, that we, we remember that and that we remember that all of our ancestors practiced plant medicine, all of our ancestors at one point or another, had this Harmoni, his relationship with land, um, That is my that's what I would love for us to come back to.

Monica: Yeah. You know, I was thinking recently I have a couple people in my life. I think we all do that are like climate change. Isn't real. And I'm like, that's not the point actually. 

Vanessa: Yeah.

Monica: I mean, it's like it is. And it's not like it's more what it's like, regardless of whether or not you believe that that is happening or not just look at how we treat each other, how we treat nature, how we treat animals are our fractured relationship with our food.

Our. Our surroundings. It's like, it's tragic. Right. And so I know I'm always kinda like, I have to, like, I actually have to like really contain myself. Do you have a plant medicine for that? By the way, when I know like, one of your friends, Matthews is like, your triggers are your teachers. Right. And I'm like, you know, like I get so triggered when people say that because I'm like, I just, 

Vanessa: it's hard, 

Monica: Really upsetting. Yeah. It, because here's the thing for me is the connection for me is the feminine. It's like how we treat the feminine is like, it's. So how, like, how do you not see that this is all inter connected, but, you know, um, I'm just over here doing my own revelation project. I won't do, I won't do theirs for them.

So 

Vanessa: Yeah, it's hard, you know, and, and that's why I, you know, and I go going back to what I was saying about relationship, you know, There's a ripple effect in everything that we do. I talk about wolves a lot in the book, cause I've worked in quilts through the Wolf conservation center and I've always had a real affinity for wolves.

And you know, to me, like, they're almost like just like weeds the epitome of wild nature. And there's been this such as fraught relationship with them, but there's so much evidence that shows that when you take these Keystone predators out of an ecosystem, there's this, there's this unbelievable impact that totally just affects everything else.

There's an imbalance of predator, prey to prey ratio. There's more disease that overpopulation of deer will decimate an ecosystem. You know, you take one thing. I think it was John Muir who said, you know, I remember the exact quote, but just like you take one thing out of an ecosystem that is instrumental meant to be, there can be a tiny, tiny creature and everything is disrupted.

So yeah, I mean, It's crazy to me that we don't think relationally and see ourselves as being interconnected to all of nature. It impacts our health and wellbeing too. You know, we're not above, not separate, you know, and I th th the fear of, of, to me, of creating so-called new technologies to, to, to grapple with these issues is, is when we can still continue this disconnect on treating the earth as a resource, because we have this technology to clean the air, and we have to stop thinking of the earth as a resource and thinking of the earth as a living being, which is what the earth is that's right.

That we depend on to survive. So, yeah. Yes. 

Monica: I also have written here, like, I want to see how beautiful the world is weeds and all I often talk about. This idea of we miss we miss how beautiful life is. If we're not willing to incorporate the wild, the messy, the untamed, and that it all gets to belong. And that we're really, it's like that expression of like cutting off your nose to spite your face it's.

So it's so essential for us. And I think to you point to this way that we've got this very civilized vision of what beauty is, and in the Western world, we have caused a great deal of suffering, you know, in the name of beauty. And that really got me thinking about just how twisted out of shape that idea of beauty is.

And even, even for women, absolutely how even the beauty industry in itself is, you know, there's this. Way. And again, I, I, this was the chapter, I think, right after I bright, which was all about perception, but it was, it was like, wow, it's so true that we, I remember, you know, in working with women for the first eight years, I did a lot of work with kind of this reclamation through imagery.

And it was this idea of having a woman witness herself, but she wasn't allowed to look in the mirror. She, you know, like none of that stuff that has this kind of like leave our bodies and get back into our heads. But it, it was this idea of like claiming beauty of like knowing it when you see it and redefining it and.

That when a woman got particularly emotional, that I call that beauty that that's where beauty shows up for me and just really kind of questioning all the ways that we've been taught to see it. Yeah. And then recognizing that it's got so many other unseen things to appreciate and to cultivate and to nurture.

And so all of this is just so eloquent and beautiful as you write about it. Where would you like to take this next? Because I could just like talk to you all day. 

Vanessa: Well, I, you know, just something you said, I'll just, you know, want to comment on it, you know, the, you know how you said the, I forget exactly what you said about life is beautiful weeds and all, but I also think that weeds are beautiful, you know, 

I, yeah.

Monica: Some of the most beautiful flowers actually that I've heard and somebody has been like, oh, that's a weed. And I'm like, that's beautiful. 

Vanessa: Yeah. But what is a weed? You know, I mean, it's just, you know, it's, it's interesting, you know, w we separate this tame, there's a taming of the landscape without, you know, or, and cultivated landscape versus the, the wild landscapes that often are.

The healthiest, you know, like I read about in the iPad shopper, just how the abandoned lots in New York city and in other urban areas are some of those absolutely gorgeous places there, you know, before seeing the world in this way. Again, I might've thought of them as being, oh, it's overgrown, but those spaces are often teaming with pollinators there's diversity on the land and in the species of plants that are there to sometimes are some of the healthiest landscapes.

Cause they're not manicured and sprayed and, and, you know, trying to be, you know, look a certain way. They're gorgeous, you know? So when nature is allowed to do her thing, There's often so much diversity, but of course, you know, we brought, brought land to a place in many places where the soil and has become so depleted that we have to interfere and participate in handling the land at this point, um, in some places, but in other places, that's not the case, you know, and, and we provide so-called weeds.

Many of them provide a service to the land. So not only are they beneficial for these, and again, I should also just note that you don't want to harvest plants from places that are, you know, where the land is being held up and they're drawing of toxins from the soil. So you have to be very, very mindful of where you harvest plants and how, but they're not only beneficial for our bodies, but beneficial for the earth too.

And so. Through the work that I've done, it become more and more interested in and ecology and not just the plants as medicine for me, but plants as medicine for the earth and the relationship of plants to each other, which is, you know, the, the core of like regenerative agriculture, like how do you plant plants in such a way that they thrive without so much interference with us or permaculture or, you know, or many indigenous practices of farming or tending to the land?

You know? So, so yeah, I just, I, I think of everything relationally now, instead of allowing them to thrive without us, instead of this taming and controlling and this very limited idea of what is beautiful and what isn't, 

Monica: You know, and maybe that maybe that's also a great place to get curious is how can we, and my listeners, how, how can I participate more in healing the earth, because I loved how you said that it's like, we do have to participate now in it's like our like mother earth is, is a force and we've actually created situations that I think call us to resolve and rectify and help the earth heal. So I wondered if maybe you could tell us more about how, how we can participate.

Vanessa: You know, I, I think, I think it, you know, many healing traditions always speak to. The scent, like starting with yourself first, you know, starting with your own handling and then the healing, every family. And so in relationship to the earth, like starting with Atlanta land, outside your door, you know, often, you know, and I think it's really valuable to give to wildlife organizations and things like that.

But what is your relationship with, if you do have a yard with your, with a land around you, start there, you know, are you trying to tend and to create a line? And if in some neighborhoods. That's mandatory to attain your landscape. I think educating education is vital. If you can begin to shift the relationship with land outside your door, educate your neighbors, you know, talk to just really find out what the policies are in the town.

There are many people I know who are, who do have really good practices of land stewardship or giving over their land to conservation organization. So the land is protected. So I think starting with a land outside your door, if you're in an urban area, you know, getting involved in. And just really, whether it's protesting herbicides, being sprayed in the cities, getting engaged with community gardens, starting where you are and, and on a personal level, I think it's so valuable.

Like for example, during one of my retreats at the Wolf conservation center, I introduced real re-introduce people to some of the so-called weeds and I've, I've heard time and time again, how people go home. And you're like, oh my gosh, see, these plants are growing around me. I had no idea. And they just really fall in love with the land around them in a new way.

And a couple of people have said like, yeah, I've told my neighbors to stop spraying and I've shown my neighbors how beautiful these things are. And so I think like this, these crests, this grassroots swell, it can be incredibly powerful. So, and, and then, you know, going back to that sense of belonging and that heals us too, because we build relationship where we are rather than trying to just rectify these situations across the globe or which are important too.

But I think if we ground ourselves where we are grow our, grow our own food, you know, um, tend to the land help to heal the land plant for the sake of playing for pollinators, create a pollinator garden that is so important, you know, they're struggling right now. 

Monica: Yeah. Uh, tell us more about what, like, when you say a pollinator garden, like tell us more.

Vanessa: So, you know, you think about. One of the thing I'm, I'm hugely adamant about, for example, Is letting leaves fall like leaf blowers or like the bane of my existence. I can not stand them. And not only just like no polluting, so true, especially gas-powered leaf blowers, but they, you know, they blow just anyway, they're just absurd.

But, uh, queen bumblebees actually hibernate in the wintertime. And so when they come out in spring, they're searching for food and often they have to travel far to find it these days with all these manicured lawns. And so planting gardens that have a long period of bloom, you know, flowers that bloom early spring through the end of autumn, wild flowers, learn about, you know, your environment and what, what species of bumblebees are.

We know what are the native plants, you know, really planting native plants, species. Many of them are so-called weeds that are white. Or, or just maybe letting them be there, don't cut them down, you know, certainly do not straight pesticides if you, you know, need to control or manage or herbicides and being careful with the fertilizers and things that you use, just really learning, you know what you're doing, what you're cutting down, what, you're, what you're planting, how you're planting it.

It's not more complicated, but it just requires maybe more, a little bit more. Which, and the other thing I feel like that's, that's broken is community. So if you could have the best practices in the world, if your neighbor is spraying and you know, that's, that's going to affect you too. So if there's any way to build a community around that or, or have community goals, you know, where you're, you're planting, you know, these native species, your neighbors planting another, you know, this have the cause we have these broken.

Fractured landscapes, ultimately in many of our neighborhoods. So, but to simplify native plants with a long period of bloom, I really beneficial for pollinators. 

Monica: Yeah. And, um, what comes up for me is as we start, why not start some, many of us are in different phases. I would say of our reconnection of our remembering.

And you talk about, you know, anger as a mobilizing and healing force. And that certainly comes up when you start to really look around and see. Goes on and you start to get really related to these fractured landscapes and you start to get really related to the toxicity that we poison ourselves with and just, we can get angry at ourselves for being part of it without really realizing that we were a part of it or being unconscious to it.

So it just, that certainly comes into play too. And I can't remember, you know, I'm thinking about anger and I can't remember what plant you were talking about. Maybe dandelion, dandelion yet, but it's also related to this manicured logging thing, right? It's like, oh my gosh, how perfect. 

Vanessa: Yeah. Well, yeah, let you know. I think about the book is broken up to five sections and that's the third section, which is solar energy plants that somehow contain the energy of fire or, or the sun. Or a body systems that are related to this fiery energy in our bodies. So yeah, dandelion and Dana and I is a perfect one, right? Cause it's like this bright yellow flower that it just keeps coming back, keeps coming back, keeps coming back.

Just relentless has so much by tality. And it's interesting. So in traditional Chinese medicine in particular, many of the organs are related to different emotional states and, and liver is set to be where we store anger. And if you think of. All that the deliver has to do in the body. This is an organ that can get easily overtaxed and overwhelmed, and we know issues in the liver can manifest is as allergies.

And, you know, and, but of course, you know, your ability like prickly constitution. So those are all manifestations of being imbalanced as well. And so dandelion is an incredible lift per support and particularly the root. So that's really interesting. Right. And then, and I always think about the symbolism of plans.

You know, dating line just keeps coming back with this bright yellow flower all over the place. And people just keep trying to kill these plants on their lawn. And so I think about, you know, are like, this is a really good antidote for people who are chronic people, please service, you know, dandeline just keeps showing up, keep showing up, keep showing up, you know, and no matter how often people try to get rid of.

These are what I feel are beautiful flowers and important for pollinators. So, yeah, again, since there's just so many, it's just so much symbolism tied up there. And in this chapter where I talk about printing, really starting to transfer professional fighter and how for the people around me, that was a very unpopular choice, a very strange choice to box out there.

Yeah. Professional fight or, you know, at the time women's boxing was really in its infancy and it was in 2000 that I started to training really, really seriously. I had GRA I had dabbled in it prior to that until the late nineties, but this was like, I was, that was my life I had, my whole life was centered around.

Boxing and training. And it just really was a place where I was like, literally fighting to fight. Cause I was broke living in New York city, all my stuff, everything around me was built around this practice that I just, I just knew what I needed to pursue. So, you know, and that was a practice that really helped me get a lot of anger out of my body.

And I think that's why I really needed. So, so yeah, so, so that chapter sort of explores all of, all of these connections between dandelion and just working through our own anger and how that plant symbolizes can help support so much of that. 

Monica: Yeah. I'm so glad that you mentioned the boxing, cause that was the next place I wanted to go.

Oh good. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, cause it's, you know, for you, it really became the thing. I talk a lot about embodiment, right. And again, like, this is all related because we're so up here. And so like anything that just helps us reinhabited ourselves, that helps us ground that helps us reconnect to, and again, like I might call some of these things feminine, right?

Like it's not, but it it's so funny. Cause like anger, right. Emotions though are feminine and anger is one of those very purifying, very like that. When I think about the things that I get angry about, I think about like nothing gets me clearer, you know, in a moment then anger and really, you talk a lot about alchemy and this is where I think these, as we remember, you know, where.

We're processing, we're integrating and that's that kind of inner alchemy that really helps support us. That helps us to reconnect in all of these ways that we've been so fractured and disconnected. And so, you know, just having a, a practice or a, whether it's boxing, walking, running, like what could you share more about with respect to your own journey and using boxing in that way?

Vanessa: Well, boxing, isn't it really interesting practice? So for one, I, I was always, I've always been very drawn to martial arts. And one of the things I say in the book is that I really want to explore the part of myself that was predator instead of prey, you know, as a woman, I often felt. Prey walking around the streets.

And I just feel personally that self-defense is an important tool for women to learn. So it's a different, it's a different for me, a different form of embodiment. So while other I've also explored other movement practices, when I began to learn boxing and explore other martial arts, I carried myself differently and people treated me differently.

Monica: Say more about that. 

Vanessa: Well, I knew, I knew how to fight, you know, which I, I never, I hadn't before, you know, we're often taught and I think it's changing now for, for, you know, the, for new generations of women, but. You know, my mom's generation the less so probably with me, but, you know, you're taught to be nice set, to be good, taught, to be, to sublimate these wild, this kind of wildness, and to te to tone down, you know, I felt like throughout my life prior to, to exploring boxing, I just felt like I had to tone down, be nice, you know?

And so I hadn't explored that part of myself really. And I, in the, in the wild rose chapter, I talk about my experience with sexual assault. And I didn't know how to fight that and not to say that if I had known it would have changed what had happened to me, but I was fairly helpless in that situation.

At least I felt I was. And so, you know, not to say that, like I could have boxed my way out of it, but it gave me a level of confidence in the way of carrying myself that people noticed. It's very subtle, you know, but we're ultimately we're animals. And we have these ways of kind of like assessing people through their body language.

And we make these quick, you know, assumptions when we're walking down the street, you know, and I think that the way I began to carry myself when I was fighting with was different. So it was very empowering for me. It was really empowering to step into a ring where you have to be absolutely present. So in that way it was a moving meditation for me, not present.

If you're, if you're thinking too much, if you're in your head, if you're dwelling on a mistake or if you're projecting yourself into like planning a combination, you can do in the future, you could really literally get your face reconfigured. So it's a practice of presence. And I, I should say too, I was not a boxing fan.

I thought it was really brutal. I still do, but doing it is an entirely different experience. So I developed so much confidence, but of course was competitive sports. There's an edge. I don't know if you got to the St John's where a chapter yet, but I also talk about that whole new pain, no pain, no gain attitude.

And because I was a woman in, what was it, you know, like kind of traditionally a man's sport. I feel like I could to prove myself that much more. And so I, I became too good at moving beyond pain. So for awhile, that was a place I needed to get to move beyond my perceived limitations physically, but then I became too good at it.

And I had to look at that too. So, you know, there's an edge with movement practice. Um, when it comes to like competitive sports where it can become. Empowering. And then it almost goes into the edge of being like abusive. Right. So, yeah. Um, but I ha I let it go and what I, one of my most powerful moments. Of it all is when I realized I didn't need it anymore to feel good, where I'd completed my practice in a way I'm like, okay, I don't, I don't need this anymore.

I've, I've, I've processed something needed to process. I have done all the training I needed to do, which also helped me become so much more aware of my surroundings. You know, if you think about, you know, martial artists, you have to anticipate your opponent's next move. And so there's this like level of awareness of my environment, actually that trading and martial arts gave me as well.

Monica: I loved reading about, you know, learning how to soften your gaze and, and really like look through your opponent and there's ways that I really could see. And, and I've always been, you know, like, like there's some like archetype there for me, like some scrappiness, you know, that really. It's really kind of funny to me because I've often been drawn, even though I too, like, I would no sooner watch boxing than I would watch somebody hurt an animal, like, or just, it just feels so, but there's, there's a, there's a discipline and there's also a draw for me around like just the, just the body movements and also the, the, the other, I think.

Awareness practices that come into play, that, that it is related to martial arts. And that there's, there's so much wisdom. And, and also just really recognizing that there's so many ways to like, that's, that was another big vehicle for your processing and healing, along with all of these other ways that you were supporting yourself.

This has just been so fun and so delightful to. More, just more in depth with you and to hear more of your story. And I'd love to just maybe finish with anything you feel like, you know, sometimes I ask the question of what does revelation mean to you? And I wondered if you could share with us with, what does that word call up in you?

What do you think about when I say revelation?

Vanessa: I think, I mean, I have an image comes to mind really. And I used this language in the book of peeling back layers, you know, that can be like peeling back layers of social conditioning or old stories or belief systems that I have that I've outgrown that I carried with me.

So yeah, I think about. Peeling back layers and consistently revealing myself when I think about, and I think of that word and I feel like that's a lifelong process. 

Monica: Yeah, it sure is. And is there any question that I haven't asked you that you wish I had had? 

Vanessa: Oh, that's an interesting question. Not really, but for some reason, one of the chapters of the book comes to mind.

Which is towards the end, which is the chaga chapter and fun guy are really interesting, you know, they're very relational. And so I, through that chapter, I explored the relationship between the chaga and the Birch tree and what they go through in their partnership. And that, that chapter is all about the balance between intimacy and solitude.

And it's interesting. Cause I, at first I was, I was using, I used the word intimacy and independence and it was like that independence doesn't even exist really. So I threw that word out, but solitude has always been very important to me as a, as a artist, as a creative person, as a writer. And in that chapter, I, I explore the relationship between chaga and Birch cause, cause some people believe that Chaga is Paris.

And, and kind of like sucks the energy and out of the Birch tree. And some people, we, that chaga is actually healing. The trees wounds it low. It's kind of like a scab on the Birch tree. And so that whole chapter is exploring the balance of. In an intimate partnerships. Well, how we ebb and flow in those relationships and, and looking to the relationship between chaga and Birch symbolically, and literally, you know, as we navigate that, I, I really explored how even sometimes when I, you know, talking about, I was talking about a situation where my, one of my, my past relationship, my partner was in tears and just grieving and how even like tenderness can smother sometimes, like he needed a degree if he needed to get that out of his system.

So, um, yeah, I don't know, for some reason that chapter came to mind and I just I've become very, really fascinated about the relationship between them plants themselves. Because most of the book I write about my relationship with the place. But I'm also, I become more and more fascinated by the relationship between the plants and how they navigate those relationships in the wild.

Monica: Yeah. I mean, I'm really struck by that too, because there's a way that what comes up for me is like the, we make these assumptions that, that these, you know, relationships are parasitic or they're this or that. And it's like, it's just that willingness again, to like just dissenter ourselves and frigging learn something and get curious, you know, it's like for God's sake, you know, like to, we have to control it all.

And, and I love how you were also pointing to just this continual inquiry, which, which for me is the revelation project. It's like standing in the paradox between the chaga and the Birch tree and just really kind of being in the. Tension. I think that that holds new possibilities. If we just stand there long enough and just wonder, imagine that, and just how much there is in, in those types of relationships.

And I go back to what you said, which is this, this intimacy and solitude. And I love that that totally points to my human design, which is a profile of a two, four and opportunities, which is the very social part of me and the hermit, which is, you know, the intimate part of me and the hermit, which loves the solitude.

So I think that's a perfect place to just end this interview. It's like, I feel like we just put it a nice little bow on it, but I also, yeah, I also want to invite you to tell our listeners where they can follow you and learn more about you. 

Vanessa: Yeah. So my website is very easy. It's Vanessa Chakour com. And, uh, I conduct an official spell it out, but my last name is spelled C H a K O U R.

It's not spelled the way it sounds and Instagram I'm at vchakour and I also just started a new newsletter on sub stack. So, uh, you can subscribe to that. I have the link linked to that in my Instagram bio it's called Earthly Bodies. 

Monica: Ooh, I'm going to definitely check that out. Yeah. And do you have another book coming anytime soon? You like, 

Vanessa: look right now? Yeah. Hitting. 

Monica: Okay. That's what I hope for myself too. I hope it just like, I hope it's like the appetite, right? Like it's just the, it's just the appetizer and it's just like, there's more to come. Oh yeah. It does feel like somehow, like this is like getting the. You know, kind of flowing in this process is you and I have talked about before we jumped on is just been, so talk about a revelation, like giving myself permission to write has just been really a journey and its own in its own.

Right. So I'm so glad to hear that. And what is the topic of the next book? Can you share? 

Vanessa: I can a tiny bit. 

Monica: Okay. You heard it here. 

Vanessa: Ultimately it's about embracing our animal nature. The fact that we are in fact animals and just the way, the way that plants have been. Important to me throughout my life.

So have animals and I've partnered with a lot of wildlife organizations and my work with sacred warrior and just in my personal work is so similar to the way I talk about plans and awakening Artemis. I'm going to be looking more through the lens of wild animals in the next.

Monica: I love that. Well, I know too, that so many of our listeners are going to not only love this book and this book really is a masterpiece.

And, you know, I don't say that lightly. It's like, I cannot wait to keep I'm about halfway through. I cannot wait to keep going. And I'm so glad you're going to come out with another one, but I really just encourage everybody. Who's listening to pick up a copy because not only is it just aesthetically beautiful, but I'm somebody who loves to like, just journal while I'm reading.

And there were so many juicy pieces for me to kind of just quote and journal about and also highlight there. There were some really, there was so many in fact, like just statements or questions that you make that just really resonated with me and like where I actually got emotional, you know? And so I think there's so much talent in your writing.

So yes, keep going, because that does not always happen. So you have a real way of, I think, reaching through the pages and touching people's hearts. 

Vanessa: That means the world to me. Thank you so much. 

Monica: Yeah. Well, thank you. This has been an absolute honor. So for our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Vanessa's links in the show notes and across, I'll be posting more about this interview.

And until next time more to be revealed, we hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift subscribed to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.