156 Miguel Conner
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project podcast.

What is Nas? What is Nosis? Who is Sophia and what is the divine feminine? Today I have a very special guest, someone I discovered in my own journey back home to myself, and as I lifted the veils of illusion for myself. The right readings, books, podcasts, came into my world at just the right time, and this particular individual has so much to offer in terms of not only his creative interpretations that he share.

On his own podcast of what Nosis is. But he also is just a real conduit for creating incredible conversations that open new portals into possibility. And what I love the most about this particular person is his dedication and devotion to his work. So I'm about to introduce you to the host of the Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio, which is a popular, very popular show on mysticism and hermeticism.

Both ancient and modern. Miguel O'Connor. He is the author of The Acclaimed Voices of Mysticism and Other Voices of Mysticism, as well as the Postapocalyptic Vampire Epic Series, the Dark Instinct Trilogy. His articles have appeared in several publications including the Nasic Journal, the Heretic Mindscape Reality Sandwich.

And Graham Hancock's blog. He's also lectured and appeared at such events as the Duncan Trussel Family Hour. The Allen Eisenberg Show Magic Radio in Chicago, Roone Soup Skeptical, the Higher Side Chats, and the Nas Countercultures Conference at Rice University. So today he's here with us to talk about how Nasic Mysteries can work in the modern world, as well as to reveal the secret of no.

So without further ado, I would love for you to help me welcome Miguel O'Connor. Hey. 

Miquel: Hello. Thank you for having me on. Great to be here. 

Monica: Yeah, I mean, I just, uh, Miguel and I just pulled a card and of course it was the Apocalypses, which just brings us right to the heart of it all, doesn't it, Miguel? 

Miquel: It does indeed revelation the lifting of the veil to see the truth and especially in this time of, uh, chaos and these end times or transition as I like to call it this age of hermes.

Cause that's the god of transitions and doorways, and I think humanity is going through a huge one as the coga ends. So, uh, an apocalypse is a good thing right now. 

Monica: Yeah, it sure is. And you know, when people started to use that term, you know, I, I had this actually this deep satisfaction because I think while the term was kind of spoken in fear, to me it really has been the very center of my world and everything that the revelation project really means to me, which has been, you know, that every step of my journey of awakening has been the lifting of another veil, the lifting of another illusion, the embracing the unknown, embracing the chaos as kind of the great creator, the great energy that, that reorganizes and redistributes and reorients, but first disorients everyone.

So I'd love, I'd love to actually just start, you know, with where are we now and then. An expose, a little expose on mysticism and what your why is, like, why you got involved in this work and why you're so devoted to it. 

Miquel: Yeah. It's interesting what you said. The veils reminds me of that great myth of Inanna going into the world and the, the dance of the seven veils and the huge trial that she had to go through, but eventually she's redeemed, then restored.

All of us have to go into the underworld and lose, lose it all as we would to find that, uh, pearl of great price that the gnostics talked about. So, and that's where we are today. I think, uh, it is an end of an age. I always like to go back to another primordial myth, and that is the myth of Tiamat, the great dragon. And she is slain by Marduke, her son.

And I think the great symbol of that is Marduk represents civilization, the solar powers, the, uh, left brain thinking. And this sort of thinking was great for creating civilization, uh, agriculture, math, all that, uh, good stuff. Unfortunately, part of civilization is a, there is a cost to it. And the cost was that the, the dragon, the lunar powers, the divine feminine powers had to be slowly or gradually put aside or repressed.

and that's, we are right now in a culmination as humans that, uh, in inside and outside we're so off balance that it is, it has caused massive destruction, psychic destruction to our collective consciousness and material destruction to the world. So I always like to say in my podcast, uh, Tiamat needs to rise this, uh, ancient primordial goddess.

And it doesn't mean she has to like kill her son. This time. I'd say there has to be a balance between these two forces or else we're just gonna fade away into, uh, into nothing or worse. We're gonna stick around in a state of complete insanity and psychosis. 

Monica: Right? 

Miquel: So that's my, uh, sort of big picture, high level, uh, view.

As I like to say, dream time is coming back to the, to that view that's sort of more holistic. Nonlinear time way that we used to see the world needs to come and balance out the left and right brain male and the female. 

The solar and the lunar all these powers. In a way gnosticism offered me that view because gnosticism posits That we live in a sort of a simulation oppressed by these, these cosmic astro lordes called the Archons. And through this spiritual tech called Gnosis, which is a, uh, an intense view of reality and an intense self-knowledge and journey within like an Innana or an Astrol journey through the stars as or as, but as I always say, the inner, the journey to the stars and the journeys to find our soul is the same journey.

The, the hermetics who are Gnostics always said as above, so below the universe is, is within us and we are in the universe, the macro and the micro. But so Gnosticism offered me this avenue to understand, to really see the suffering of the world, to really see the big picture, to really give me the tools to understand who I am to go into that inner journey.

And as I kept studying it, I realized that also another thing about the Gnostics too is that they were the contraband thieves or merchants of this very ancient goddess worshiping or more, um, first temple holistic kind of view of the universe and approach to life. And this has been advocated not just by me, but by very prominent scholars like James McGrath and Margaret Barker, who's probably the, when it comes to first Temple Hebrew religion.

She is by far the leading expert that the gnostics were. Carrying this, uh, Ashi a not religion or mysticism underground through the ages. And, uh, this is from Solomon's temple. It's no secret that Solomon had worshiped the goddess another gods and his first temple, and that's why he and his son got in trouble and history was sort of rewritten.

So those are some of the reasons that narcism really for my path, has really, uh, helped or clarified or as we're talking about, to help me lift the veil of reality. 

Monica: Yeah. Well, and it, it just makes me curious to know. About your dark night or like, you know, like why, why it became like the balm for you? Like is there a, a deeper kind of fracturing that had to happen in your own life and were you raised in a particular faith that you kind of had to break out of?

Or tell me more about that. 

Miquel: Yeah, I was raised Roman Catholic. My mom was, was a devout Catholic, but she was very ecumenical and very open-minded about her religion. My father was an atheist, but more of the sort of classic, just leave me alone. I'm living without religion or God kind of atheist. And I was always one of those, uh, misfits that was asking the bigger questions of reality.

Never felt that I fit in in any system or time, was very artistic, inclined, very curious, and that led me into a lot of trouble through my years. Including, unfortunately later on, mental issues, addiction, alcoholism, and all that sort of thing. But it also, during times of sobriety and, and uh, awareness, it also led me through trying to understand all these different religions and philosophy.

So I was sort of a, as I myself, a spiritual hitchhiker, I, I tried all these clothes. Like I would, uh, embrace Hinduism for about a year, go to Ashrams. I would embrace Islam, new age. I became a born again Christian for six months. I just kept trying these things to maybe understand, uh, again, what are the bigger questions in life, nature of evil suffering, uh, aft what happens when we die.

And none of these seem to really fit for me because I thought they just weren't very, You might say intense. I loved them and I still, I love all religions and mythologies, but none of them seem to work for me until I started embracing or um, trying some of the thoughts and philosophies. And that really sort of rung a bell because the really took a, uh, very hard stance on the nature of reality, on the nature of humanity, how we are in a, sort of a trapped in a simulation.

They're, uh, leaning into a sort of a divine feminine aspect that Christianity did not have, or Judaism or Islam, or really a lot of the other religions. And it really might say, gave me the red pill. . And as I continued on my journey with struggles, mental illness, alcoholism, and drug addiction, trying different religion, sort of this labyrinth and this pull back and forth, it was really embracing y therapy and psychology that you might say cracked me open once and for all and broke me down completely.

Because Jung, as some of your listeners may know, his foundation was, uh, on de psychology, was the gnostics. He felt that thes, as he wrote, knew the secrets of the soul. They were his long lost friends, and he began using, uh, As a base, as a foundation theology and thought for his ideas. And he sort of created a new language for a modern time.

He included alchemy, which is part of the hermetic lore and other, uh, other mythopoet and, uh, occult disciplines. But Jung's ideas really opened it up, or at least gave me the tools to really go inside and find out who I am and why I act a certain way and really start seeing the, really start taking it into a journey of purpose and meaning.

Monica: Yeah, purpose and meaning. It's true. You know, it's like when I think of, you know, my experience in that dark night that I had, it was really. Inspired by this lack of purpose and meaning. And it was literally like, I kind of remember, and I often talk about this with my listeners, almost like this silent prayer or this, you know, I didn't even realize that I was doing it until later, which was like, it kind of sounded like, I can't do this anymore.

Please don't make me do this anymore. You know, . And it was like, everything just felt so pointless. And I often say that my cynic was driving the boss of my life, and my father had this great expression, which was that the cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing and. , I had become so cynical about everything, and of course, with that cynical point of view or that cynical lens in front of everything, it was just nothing.

Felt a lot, like everything kind of just felt dead inside of me. And so I often think about. I was so ready, I think, to go into that underworld experience. Of course, nobody's really ready. They might think they're ready until they get there. . . 

Miquel: Yeah. Yeah.

Monica: You know, and then like what that phrase coming back to life meant to me after that, you know, it was like to go deeply into that void and meet these parts of myself that I had abandoned along the way.

And as you were kind of pointing to these various substances and struggles with mental illness, there's so much of that kind of, I think for so many people in their journey until they get to the point that they're just, they have kind of quote unquote, nothing left to lose. And that kind of creates this opening, like, and you had mentioned the journey of Anana.

I often tell my listeners that, Again, when I kind of came back, and it wasn't until years later that I came across the myth of Anana and inside the Matrix, you can tend to wonder like, how is it that, that I never knew about these mythologies? How is it that I never knew about these, her stories or these?

So much of what I've now discovered has been. Really a conversation on the fringes, and I say the fringes and what I really mean is outside the matrix that have led me like breadcrumbs back home to myself and kind of piecing together this bigger picture that I can now understand and conceptualize. And it's the thing that makes sense to me, not in an intellectual way necessarily, but in more of a, a soul, you know, spiritual journey.

And, and how that shows up for me is, . It reveals itself in different conversations with others as I'm kind of piecing it all back together, or what I call remembering because I think at one time our soul and spirit knows the way, knows, knows this, and back to kind of this, knows this and knows this. You know, I really just want to also qualify or define no as distinguished by the conviction.

Like, I've heard a about this a couple of different ways, but that matter is evil and that emancipation or liberation comes through nosis, which really translates to knowing thyself. Is that accurate? 

Miquel: Yes, I would say so. I think the central tenant of gnosticism and of course Jung would go with this as thyself. What's in the temple of Delph?

This is, I tell people this is the key to everything. Who we are, our constructs, uh, our ego is sort of guiding and dealing with reality. But that is not all of us with, that's just the tip of the iceberg. We are vast divine beings that sometimes in our experiences and consciousness stretch beyond time and space and to understand who we are and not just sort of a surface understanding.

You know, I am this sign and I like this type of ice cream and my favorite football team is this. And but your true deep self that, uh, what the nas call the divine spark, the, the shard of infinity that is within you, that is where all your answers happen. Because as you would say, your soul under has your purpose, has your destiny, and has everything else that you need to really be part of the restoration of the universe.

So that, that would certainly. In text and in their exercise. Yeah. It's all about contemplation, going inward, understanding everything that you are and everything that you are not, because we are all, uh, basically for program robots. We are, uh, programmed by our culture, by our religion, by our parents, uh, by businesses, governments, friends, and all that.

And what we become is simply a construct. But, uh, as Yung said, we didn't come to this world to be good. We came to be ourselves. Mm. Uh, he further said, uh, the experience of the self is always a defeat for the ego. And these are very, I think these are very powerful words. And, uh, I think, yeah, the idea that matter is evil.

I, I don't know if it's not. It's here to keep us down because that's the nature of the universe and to keep us asleep and to keep us obedient. But at the end of the day, our home is beyond the stars, ofs would say, with the ultimate consciousness. The undivided consciousness, which again, paradoxically resides within us.

It is the divine spark and it is up to us to break down the veil and try to, uh, finally find out who we're, I always tell people. Each one of us, by definition, has an amazing purpose and a destiny that is part of the restoration of the universe, no exceptions. This includes animals. Every living thing there is sort of a back and forth between the powers of light and darkness.

And if we can find out who we truly are, which is a very painful thing, it is, uh, like anana sort of, uh, removing all, all our veils and just sitting in the underworld for a while until we find, uh, that destiny, that pearl of great price. Then, uh, everything, uh, then it's an amazing experience. the gnostics, despite their edgy view on the universe and humanity and all that, uh, was a reli.

Reli was an ecstatic religion. It was a shamanistic religion. It was a religion about transformation and wholeness and really a, a movement of pure and unadulterated joy. 

Monica: Yeah. I love what you said too about evil. It's not so much that it's evil, it's just the nature of, it's the nature of this world. So, so say more about that.

Miquel: Yeah, I mean, here's, here's an example, because texts are really edgy. They're ultra, they're like Game of Thrones sometimes. So really, you 

Monica: should think most people would gravitate towards it, you know, but 

Miquel: Yeah. Well, sometimes we, we've been trained to think that religion should be, or spirituality should be a nice sanitized thing.

But no, it, it's a brutal thing. And they're texts again, are, are very violent, very pornographic, they're intense, but there is a, a sense of joy and ecstasy. When you, in the tone of the writer and in the prayers and in the, the, whenever Sophia comes down in certain parts and has to awaken the souls and carry them away, or the, the divine Christ comes to share.

So there's this dichotomy in there, and even, I mean, this is something about being spiritually honest, is that you face the horror and the holiness of the universe. Joseph Campbell talked a lot about this, and he was a Jungian that, uh, as I often say, nature is my salvation, but it is my destruction too. It's, uh, the ying and the yang, right?

To, uh, hold the light in the darkness, e e equally in front of you so that you may find a middle path. And, uh, despite, for example, the Cathars, the medieval gnostics, who had this really dark view that the universe was ruled by Satan and matter was evil and all that, but. When you saw them, they were called the good people.

They were beloved by their communities. They were some of the most happy Christians walking around. They, they were pacifists. They didn't eat meat. They were beloved by everybody they touched. So they were showing that they had been transformed. Same with the Manican, who were also a sort of late antiquity, medieval group who, who had this very Zoroastrian view of two forces fighting each other.

And, uh, we need to escape the world and all that. They were probably one of the most eco-friendly groups ever that's ever walked this planet. Again, they were vegetarians. They wouldn't even walk on grass because they felt they were hurting the spirits, the, the soul of the grass. They wouldn't, they wouldn't even pluck fruit from trees.

They would wait till the trees drop like the Janes, and they were some of the most beautiful artistic friendly groups that you can, so this catharsis of understanding the light in the darkness of seeing nature for what she truly is, is liberating. I mean, we often forget that we have a myopic view, right?

We, for example, look at the Goddess Venus. Most people today go, well, Venus is the goddess of love. I'm like, uh, you are forgetting that Venus was also the goddess of war. She had a dark side, right? Same with Ashshira. Mm-hmm. . Ashira had a knot who was this extremely ultra violent, hypersexual, cannibalistic goddess.

So it's seeing again, the light in the dark together to see the universe for what it is in all honesty and courage, and seeing yourself too. All of us have a shadow. You said, uh, uh, what did he say? A modern man can't see God because he doesn't look low enough. In other words, all of us have this dark shadow.

We have this trauma, we have this insane pain and a capacity for evil, but they all deserve a seat at the table. They need to be brought out into the light of consciousness so that it could be part of our individuation and dissipate and part of our integration. So, um, I know a bit of Byzantine answer, sorry.

Monica: No, but I, I love that. I mean, it's, it, it really occurs. We just keep forgetting over and over and over again that it all gets to belong and that, that's actually to the. . The whole point here is to kind of, as I always say to my listeners, kind of say yes to the mass that is mm-hmm. both our human and our divine.

That that is the totality. Exactly. Back to kind of, you can't have one without the other. So like the universal one includes all of it. Mm-hmm. and so we're, we are just having to experience that in a multitude of ways over and over and over again, and hope that it sticks , you know, for like any period of time.

But I think for me, that's what I'm doing when I talk about disrupting the trance, right. Is like creating these bigger openings for us to kind of hold the tension in the middle. 

Miquel: Perfect. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. Don't suppress go down. Uh, this right? I always, yeah. I mean your, your shadow, your traumatic child, your pain, all deserve a seat at the table.

They all are talking to you every second of the day and they just wanna be heard. Same as the Archon, same as the spirits in nature. They just wanna be heard. I mean, if we like Phillip k Dick, if the universe is made of information, that information will help us, will save us, well then we need to listen better because the universe, our soul, everything's talking at once and everything deserves. To be listened to. 

Monica: I love that. Okay, so we just kind of touched on the Archons. I wanna go back there in a minute, but first I would love for you to just explore the questions with the listeners around Sophia. Like who is Sophia and the divine feminine as it relates to the gnostics? 

Miquel: Woo. Yeah, that's quite a question.

Cause, uh, they were very, there was a lot about the divine feminine from, uh, the ultimate mother bar. Uh, in, in the cosmology, the supreme consci decide it's not gonna be, it's gonna try to understand itself. So as soon as it says Who am I, there's a split, there's consciousness and the experie. We have that in Hinduism with, uh, Shiva and, uh, perk or Shaki.

But in Aism, the, the Supreme Spirit asks, who am I? And comes out this being called Barbella, who is female and they have this interplay or this sort of sexual intercourse or this, and every time he asks a question, it creates an aspect of God or the supreme consciousness, uh, goodness, perfection. And it keeps going.

And the Nas call these aspects of God, the Aons, which were personhoods or potentials of the supreme consciousness. So you already have the great mother and father at the top, and these aons are emanating, uh, until the last one is called Sophia. She is the wisdom of God, incarnates wisdom of God. And that's where a lot of times things go wrong because, Wisdom is wisdom, right?

Wisdom has to know, wisdom has to, uh, self-actualize by experiencing everything there is. I mean, as Rudolph Steiner said, wisdom is just crystallized pain. So wisdom is created and she rebels against the natural order of the divine realm and is eventually cast out. And this is, again, not so rare in ancient times.

Uh, Sibel the great mother of ancient times, she started out as a male goddess and she wanted to explore. So she castrates herself to get thrown outta heaven. And this is all part of Plato's, the soul being coming down, uh, the soul's high adventure, the soul is rebellious and the soul needs to go experience.

So Sophia is cast down this Aon into the world, and because of her grief, and her pain. These become to project themselves outward. They manifest as the universe as the gnostics said, the oceans and the rivers are the tears of Sophia and so forth. And the universe is created through Sophia's grief again, wisdom is crystallized pain.

And then eventually she gives birth to a child who is the supreme being of this universe, often associated with the God of the Old Testament. And this being takes over and begins to, uh, steal Sophia's divine essence and create the world and create humanity as a slaves and so forth. So eventually you get this sort of grand theater play, this mythological play of Sophia and the Demiurge.

Trying to fight each other. And we are basically, those who are awakened through are part of Sophia's, uh, rescue operation. And she often, uh, will have Christ comes down from, uh, the divine realm to help her out. Cause she's still off balance. And she is the Christ, the animus, she is wisdom in Christ as the logos.

And together they work together to sort of restore the universe. And as I mentioned that Monica, this is not the gnostivcs, didn't just come out with this stuff again, just outta thin air. They were drawing from the great traditions like Sibel and Inanna, Plato Soul, the adventure of Plato Soul into Matter. And also Jewish wisdom, tradition.

Monica: Mm-hmm

Miquel: if you look at Jewish wisdom tradition, the, the, the ancient goddess was a goddess of wisdom and she was eventually sort of suppressed outta Hebrew tradition and until Judi Hebrew became the Jews after exile. But you still find wisdom in many parts of the Bible, including the Book of Proverbs. Uh, you find it in the book of Sira, you find an Ecclesia.

And this is not sort of a, uh, This is truly an individual. She has an an ontological aspect. She's there creating with God. She's there creating by herself. She is supreme. What is the book of Sir? Say the first human being? Never finish comprehending wisdom, nor will the last succeed in fathoming her for deeper than the thoughts and her councils than the great abyss.

So she's the supreme being powerful being but. She has been cast down and rejected by humanity, which of course is a great theme, right? Humans want wisdom, but we don't, we never accepted, even the book of Enoch says, wisdom came down and was rejected by the humans, and she had to go back to until time was right.

So this too, from also the, the Jewish wisdom, tradition. And so you have this, uh, and again, from the ancient primordial myths of Ashshira and Sibel and Inanna, this forgotten goddess who's been sort of cast down and now through, no, she can return to the world and hopefully restore the universe, or at least wake up those who want to wake up.

So in essence, that's more or less the, the myth of Sophia, uh, for you in a sort of, in a, you know, a brief. 

Monica: Oh my goodness. Okay. So, and of course I have the question of like, so is her time right now, so she came down before right? And she was rejected by the humans. What I'm understanding is that, you know, kind of the, the name of the game is back to that kind of rescue operation that you were alluding to, is like, the more we can actually pursue this No.

Or this knowing thyself, right. Allowing all of our parts to come to the table. The more awakened we become and the more capable we become of maybe having. This b the Sophia century, right? This, the century of wisdom, uh, where we, we will actually achieve that. Is that, is that correct? 

Miquel: I hope so, but uh, it's hard to say.

I mean, one thing about the Gnostics text is they're very, they are apocalyptic. The veil is lived and you see the divine plan through, uh, reality or linear time, but they're very, a historical 

Monica: mm-hmm.

Miquel: Uh, there's never any mention of a utopia or anything like that there. And in fact, it's interesting in, um, the Secret Book of John, which has a huge myth about Sophia and the, and all that Jesus, the, it's, Jesus has a talk with the Apostle John and Jesus tell him, this is what happened with Sophia and everything else.

And, uh, the, and he gives him this huge grand story of creation. And John is like, oh, okay. So what happens at the end? Jesus basically says, You know, your choice more to be revealed every Right. No, he simply says it's your choice. Every soul can choose to wake up, keep in the cycles of life, breakthrough, or there are souls who decide, I'm just gonna stay in matter and I will become matter.

So Jesus says, it's up to every individual. And I've always liked the idea of that, an apocalypse or a change of the ages. Some people will see it, some people will don't. Some people will, uh, evolve into different, uh, realities or dimensions, and some will stay in the material world again. It's, uh, each of our souls has a choice at the end of the day.

Monica: Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. I love the way that you just kind of came full circle on that and you know, and it's bringing up for me too, Paul, is it Paul Levy's work? Paul Levy. I never know how to pronounce his last name. 

Miquel: Yeah. I call him Levy. 

Monica: Yeah. Okay. So just that idea of wetiko that is, yeah. Also a very indigenous concept that has to do with our cannibalism of it's, it's almost like, well there's so many things coming in right now, but this aspect of ourselves that is blind to our own, it's that blind spot or that what he calls the virus of the mind, which is where I think the matrix is, like where we're trapped in this matrix and we can't see kind of the forest through the trees.

I don't know if you have a better way of describing it, but 

Miquel: No, that. No, that's it. The mind virus that, yeah. Paul Levy talks about John Lamp, Blash, a whole bunch of, uh, modern mystics talk about it. Thes would call it the, uh, the counterfeit spirit. And that's sort of the fake part of us that's created by our soul.

It's a fake soul, and it is there too, as you said, lead us into material, delights, ignorance, violence, all that part. It's almost, uh, in one text the EPIs constructed right before our soul creates and is again, this pariticle part of us. Carlos talked a lot about that predator and this, this being that exists to lead us astray.

That's, uh, that's a interesting, gnpostics always created probably the best cosmic villains, bond villains, because these, these beings not, not only control the stars and therefore they control the cosmos, destiny, fate, all these things, but they also are embedded in our minds. They're creatures that are both, again, very hermetic, right?

As above, so below, they control the heavens, but they're also within us to lead us away, because at the end of the day, they're, they're like the matrix off the energy, not of our brain, like in the matrix, but they're feeding off of that divine spark within us that sustains the universe, and they're very addicted to, they're very mechanistic.

Oppressive, but as we talk, they are just, they're, well, no point in getting angry at them. They're part of the natural order, and it's up to us to break, break the spell or break out from them. 

Monica: Right. And I, and again, I'm glad you said that, right, because I was gonna say like, so it's, they're not bad. They're part of the natural order.

Again, it's like the leading astray, it's almost like the challenge creates the opportunity, like in every instance to kind of like break free from whether I'm gonna call it the trance or 

Miquel: mm-hmm

Monica: We call it the matrix, or, you know, so it's, it's like this opportunity to just embrace all of it. So it's like the more questions you ask, the more questions come, come up, until always right, until some point you're just kind of like exhausted with, with the mind boggling of it all.

And I think that's kind of the point. And so, 

Miquel: Yeah. Yeah. You get into a point where even you said, when it comes to symbols and dreams, you're not supposed to decipher them. At the end of the day, you're supposed to experience them, you know? And at some point you'll pivot and you'll, you're talking Arcons and doing all this meditation, prayer, and you'll realize I'm experiencing life now.

I'm experiencing the myth for me trying to understand Sophia is one thing, but experiencing her through her myth and her fall and her presence in the world and all these stories, that's what works. That's where I feel freedom and ecstasy and purpose too. I am guided much better to help others and that makes perfect sense.

I mean, one thing. We have to realize about humans as one. We are constructs and we are legion. We're made up of many different things. There's probably no authentic self or the authentic self, as the Buddhas said. Uh, cannot be known, only experienced, uh, the other two. The other thing is that our minds do not work with facts.

Even as I mentioned, how marduk the Lord of Civilization rules. The truth is humans are guided by stories. That's how our mind works. I mean, you, somebody can tell you over and over, you know, don't do drugs, don't be mean to your siblings, blah, blah, blah. And we're not gonna listen. But if we listen to some grand story, whether it's Lord of the Rings or Star Wars, that really hits us hard because we are made of, our minds are made of stories.

That's what separates us from other life forms. It doesn't make us more superior, but that's just how our minds are made. Patterns, stories, grand, grand dramas. That's how we become fully human and in the moment. Yeah, 

Monica: I love that. And I often talk about stories and I'm sure you know Charles Eisenstein's work, he talks about this time, this apocalypse being the space between stories.

Miquel: Oh, love it.

Monica: It's, it is. It's beautiful. And if you're not familiar with his work, I'd love to turn you on to his work. You actually earlier said as well the dream world, right? You talked about the dream world. And I have the honor of working with a woman by the name of Lynn Twist, who wrote a book called The Soul of Money, and she works with the awar people in the Amazon rainforest.

And you know, there's this concept or this invitation from the indigenous people who brought her to the Amazon Rainforest. Uh, she was actually called there through a vision. And when she got there, the Uswa people came out of the forest and said, we dreamed you here. Wow. And that began kind of the second part of her story, which is so beautiful.

But as part of that story, she came back with this concept that they wanted her to tell the people of the modern world to begin to dream a new dream so that we. Don't end up in, you know, clear cutting all of the forests and destroying the very thing that gives us life, you know? And that this idea of the dream world, the imagination, the space between stories is our opportunity to actually awaken from the trance, awaken from wedico to disrupt, to see, to remember that we are the storyteller, you know, and to really conceive a new vision for humanity.

So, you know, it just kind of interestingly plays into all of this, because I think that there's this way that as human beings, we compartmentalize, and then there's dreams, and there's myths, and there's stories, and there's reality. And yet, The bigger picture is more science fiction than, than science fiction could even conceive.

You know, it's like . It's such a, um, an interesting mix. Mm-hmm. , but even Right. The, the story of Jesus. Which is the next place I wanna go with you because we're just having small talk here today. So I wondered if, you know, you could talk about Jesus as it relates to the nasic Jesus and also that story or allegory or what are your thoughts on, on that and also how Jesus has been exploited, I will say that in this culture. 

Miquel: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, yeah, I love what you just said and it makes perfect sense. Uh, yeah, the Gnostics text and the hermetic texts are always definitely, imagination is important. Even the neo too, because it always talks about contemplate this, contemplate yourself, contemplate the world. And sometimes you're reading this text like, oh my God, this teacher really this hierophant one.

But that was part of their vibe too. And in fact, William Blake, who was uh, very influenced by the Gnostics, his poetry and cosmologies are extremely gnostics as scholars have noted, he believe imagination was. The divine spark. It was our capacity to, to fix the universe, literally change the universe. And the, and the hermetics would agree, hundred percent.

So there comes Jesus, who is, uh, I mentioned before, is the logos, the reason of God, the imagination of God, who comes to this world to fix things with Sophia, wisdom and reason, divine reason always need to work together. 

Monica: And masculine and feminine. Yes. 

Miquel: Bingo. Yeah. An Anima and Animus. Yes. The b the great balance that we, we need to work on.

I mean, this summer when I worked with my jungian advisor, it was my dreams and my taste in music. Everything was just feminine. Feminine. I couldn't, I couldn't, and I don't, uh, I'm getting to a point where I don't fight it if I, I don't care if people think I'm weird. 

Monica: Did you, at first you were like, no, it's not feminine. Okay.

Miquel: No, no, no, no. I, uh, I, she always tells me, lean into it. Yes. Just go, don't even fight. Lean in. And so it was all my dreams were all about women. I could, uh, all I could do was listen to female singers from Alanis Morrison to Dolly Parton. And I realized my anime speaking to me. She wants something and she wants me to look at something.

So I just went with it. Meditating, dream journaling, uh, active imagination, and suddenly in. I realize, aha. The revelation came. My Anima came out and said, now we are more at balance. Now we can move forward. And my anema, my anima, an anema said, okay, yes, this is great. And suddenly all these revelations and purposes and ideas have come out, but.

But anyway, before I, I go outside. Yeah. Jesus, Jesus. And the gospel. Yeah. For your audience. Just lean into it. Lean into the phrase. Just lean into it. Exactly. Yeah. You have to, your, your soul has a better plan for your life than you do the gods. No better. Sophia. Don't try to make sense of it. No, no. Like I said, yeah.

The ego is defeated because, uh, the self is coming out. The self can only be experienced, it cannot be known, but it's an amazing experience once you hit your stride, and of course thes will try to hit you. It's just, it's a give and take. But Jesus, it's a very different Jesus and orthodoxy. Obviously, Jesus is a being who came to save us from our sins, and his death is sort of paying the price and belief in him will give you salvation.

In Gnosticism, it's a different Jesus. He comes to give you information, he gives you no, he gives you, uh, the information that will wake you up. He gives you the rituals that you'll need, these ecstatic extremistic rituals that, so you can take out body flights, go inward, heal people. Healing is very important, both mental and physical healing.

Anybody can be a healer. So this, Jesus always comes to wake you up and you see that, uh, the most, uh, popular one would be the Gospel of Thomas, which is 114 sayings of Jesus, where he's just giving you this important information. He's sort of a, a, an ancient hero, very much in the way of Hermes, magisto or these other wise mystics of ancient times.

And so that is a, a huge difference. And he's often very otherworldly. He's not human in any way. He appears as a human or he takes into a human body. But they had discussion. The nature of Jesus was. Highly debated and discussed with early Christians, so they had different stances of who is Jesus. What I like about also the gnostic Jesus is, and this has been written by Jeff Kripal and others, is that he's a very cool and approachable Jesus.

You know, the Jesus in the New Testament doesn't laugh once he's kind of distant. The Jesus and the gnostic Gospels laughs all the time. Sometimes he's mocking, sometimes he's just happy. and he's always like joking around. He's walking around. It says in the gospel, Philip, he always has women around him. He's kinda a cool stud,

He's walk, even though Mary Magdalene is always like, you know, his girl, that's the, the one that he loves the most of everybody in this world. So he's more of a cool guy who laughs, who gives you good information, but he's very comforting. I mentioned the secret book of John, which has John after the crucifixion, John , he's mocked by the Pharisees and he runs into a cave.

Then Jesus appears, and Jesus says, this is who I am. And Jesus appears as a woman, a child, a monster, Jesus like I am. Everything I am, you know, I am a representation of anything. And John is like, well, why didn't you leave us, Jesus? And he goes, he, he laughs and he goes, John, John, haven't you learned a single thing I taught you?

Everything's okay. But since you still have doubts, I'm gonna give you the story of Sophia and he gives him this long story of Sophia. So it's a very different Jesus than, uh, what we have in Orthodoxy. But at the end of the day, what did Albert Schweitzer say in the quest for the historical Jesus, that Jesus we are looking for is the Jesus we are going to find ultimately as the logos.

He's a projection of something about us that we need to see. 

Monica: Oh my gosh, I love that the Jesus we are looking for is the Jesus we will find 

Miquel: or the Jesus we will need. Yeah, it's as Depeche Mode sang your own personal Jesus . 

Monica: Right? Oh my gosh. All right, so I wanna circle back to something else, which is that that Gospel of Thomas was excluded, correct.

Miquel: Yes, it was, uh, ultimately it was as, uh, I, I know there's this strange belief that the Council Ofia was about the Bible, which it was not. It was really about, uh, the nature of the Trinity. And Constantine was there, but he was bored. It wasn't as sort of damn brown game changer that we think of. But through other councils, through other, uh, through other meetings as Christianity became, uh, commercialized or corporate corporatized, certain books were allowed and certain books were eventually cast out.

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

Miquel: and the gospel of Thomas was cast out. Most of the, all the works in the nag Hamadi library, that treasure trove that was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945 was excluded. There were some gospels that were eventually changed, like the gospel of Peter was once part of the Bible and it got thrown out.

But yeah, the gnostic gospels were rejected and a lot of them were lost. Through in history. 

Monica: Okay. By design, because, you know, they probably contained too much liberation and levity. 

Miquel: Yeah, Exactly. 

Monica: Yeah, exactly. So I wanna also have you dip more deeply into the arcons. Is that right? Is that, am I pronouncing it correctly?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. . 

Miquel: Yeah. The Arcons are wico or, uh, many names alien, parasites, extraterrestrial. Again, they're really good bon villains because as, uh, Eric Davis scholar Eric Davis said, uh, the gnostic text with a sci-fi sensibility with universes of light and super mundane creatures and very lovecraftian uh, descriptions of, uh, thes.

And so it works really well, even in our modern times because, Take it any level you want. Do you think that Arcons is a mental disease that you have? Of course. Do you think thes are your, the bad parts of your ego? Yes, of course. Do you think they're supernatural beings? Sure. Do you think they're extraterrestrials?

Certainly they do. Uh, John Lamblash has made a very good case for it. So they have a very multi-dimensional aspect, just like Sophia does. You can look at Sophia in so many levels, but Thes are basically, as I mentioned, once uh, Sophia. Gives birth to this demiurge, who's also has many names, YBA, sla and so forth.

Uh, somes associated the Demiurge with the God Chronos or a any sort of creator, managerial God. They associated with the Demiurge and he's running the universe, he's feeding upon us. And his underlings are the icons. So are these beings that are created to sort of, uh, rule certain planetary heavens rule aspects of our brain and so forth.

And again, diagnostics were not, they were, they weren't just pulling it out of their butts, if you would, because this was already in the air. Look at the Book of Enoch. What does the book of Enoch tell us? These watchers come and they start, uh, giving humanity these gifts, but they also start mating with the women, and then suddenly they create a hybrid race, but they're sort of controlling things.

When you look at Paul, Paul the great, when you look at the letters of Paul and you take off your Sunday glasses and what they taught you, what is Paul talking about? We preach the wisdom of the ages. He's talking about Sophia as a person. He's not talking about, he's not being, and he's talking about the God of this world.

He uses the word when he, when he, whenever he says princess, it's actually Greek or Arkon in the original Greek. The powers and principalities, the wickedness in high places. You look at the epistle of John, it says, the evil one now controls this universe in the gospel of Mark. What? When Jesus takes Satan up to the mountain, what does he tell him?

I rule every kingdom of this world. So there was this tradition in Judaism, even in Paganism, that there was these lesser beings that were controlling the. But they were botching things up. They were just like, you know, typical bureaucrats. Oh, we voted for these guys, or God and they just screwed things up, and now we need something to fix this, which would be Jesus.

And so this was, this was in the air, and we can even look further. In time. Look at the myth of Prometheus. What happens? Uh, zoos need some slaves. So Zeus tells Prometheus create these poor slaves, which is us and Prometheus and Athena. We forget that in a lot of the myths. Again, we have Athena. Who's Sophia Prometheus, who's the logos, they, they help create humanity.

Zeus is being abusive, so Prometheus with the help of Athena. Athena says, this is where the fire is in Olympus. Get the fire and humans are fine. And of course, Zeus has to punish them, send do things that the demiurge, just pain, forgetfulness, all the stuff that these gods do upon us. Uh, you have it in Tism where there's grand drama of, of, uh, araman and Aura Mazda.

These two forces always at each other. You have it probably, as I tell people, the first version of the Matrix wasn't the 1999 WCS film. It was Plato's allegory of the cave. Cause what happens in the alley, we're in this cave and there's these beings behind us who are throwing shadows and we're looking at the wall.

We think that's reality. And one person is allowed to leave, to wake up, to come back and give information. So these ideas were in the air. The Gnostics were simply the ones who sort of, uh, it sort of, uh, reached the peak with Theno. They drew it all in together. And said, all right, here's the grand drama. But they, again, this was a very sensible view in all traditions that was happening at the time, 

Monica: which is why it cracks me up. That conspiracy theory is a thing. , right? It's just like, 

Miquel: well, what did Jimmy, what did Jimmy do call conspiracy theory? A spoiler alert, . It seemed to be coming true all the time. I mean, we now know Kennedy, that nobody really, half a brain believes Kennedy was killed by one person. You know? Yeah. 

Monica: It's just like, wow, wow, wow, wow. Get the popcorn right. Get the popcorn. What's gonna happen next? 

Miquel: Yeah. Conspiracy is just history plus time. I mean, I know. Yeah. People are still debating who was Jack the Ripper? There's still people debating who killed Alexander the Great. They think Aristotle did it so. Conspiracies are just like, as I tell people, it should be its own like discipline. It's a, it's a, a part of psychology or something . 

Monica: Yeah. It sure is. It sure is. So interesting. Oh my goodness. Okay, I'm gonna go a little bit circuitous. 

Miquel: Oh, one more thing if you don't mind. Very important. You're talking about, uh, the Christ you look for. The Christ we deserves The Gnostics themselves always said, look, uh, the gospel of Philip and others, you do not worry about the resurrection.

When you die, the resurrection happens. Now if you see Christ, you must become Christ. You are Christ. So their view was different than the Orthodox Jo, uh, because Orthodox stents, because they felt that we could become living Christ. While we were alive in this world, and we could have all the powers of Jesus, 

Monica: Right. I read something recently, I think it was Richard Roar, that said like, we forgot that Christ is not Jesus' last name. Right? It's , it's to be Christed, right? To, to, mm-hmm. . 

Miquel: No anointed. 

Monica: Anointed. Right. Initiated, anointed. However, however you want to use that, but that, that remembering is actually. That resurrection. Correct. 

Miquel: Right. What did Plato call it an loss of forgetfulness? Or what did he say? All learning is remembering, which I love that quote. 

Monica: Yes. All learning is remembering. Where I wanted to go was actually back to Mary Magdalene, and I wanted to talk a little bit more, because of course you and I were chatting before the episode, but so much of my work is in this realm of disrupting the trans of unworthiness and really guiding women to reveal and remember the truth of who we are.

And of course, the trans of unworthiness is. really all of our journey, but there's a specific way that I think women are kind of microdosed these messages of unworthiness. A lot of that due to patriarchal religions. I loved that you said earlier that you love all religions and mythologies and there's so much fertile ground there, and there's also so much damage that's been done.

Right. There's so much, you know, that's been kind of done to women and the suppression of women and back to kind of this story and Sophia kind of falling from 

Miquel: mm-hmm. 

Monica: Grace and now needing to make this journey. 

Miquel: Yeah. Women are, that's where we, that's where I am stuck or I'm trying to figure things out.

Women are, Connected to nature. You can't have one without the other. So as we humans, we need to find out, do we suppress nature? What do we do? I mean, nature, what we see outside is not nature. It's, you know, when we walk to parks and all that, it's suppressed right nature, it's not real nature. Unbound nature has, uh, more has opportunities, you know, people in the Amazons have great medicines and psychedelics and all that.

But anyway, that's a question I'm thinking. I know there's a balance. There's always a solution. But yeah, women are always connected to nature. So if as, as long as we are suppressing nature, we're going to suppress women and vice versa. So that's the great, uh, the great answer right there. 

Monica: Yeah. Well, it's, it brings up for me, you know, I've been really working with this theory for multiple years now that, you know, if we were to kind of go back to the mature feminine archetypes, You know that there's this kind of journey stemming from the archetype of, let's call her, in this case, the eternal child, who then becomes kind of the wounded child or not, but then almost heads into Maidenhood and ends up stuck in Wounded Maiden as an unin uninitiated, right?

Before she would have reached, quote unquote, the mother archetype, the mother archetype being she who is full of herself, she who knows her own sufficiency, she who is deeply in touch with not only. Love of self, but also deeply in touch with her intolerance for harming nature or children. Or when a woman is full of herself and knows her own sufficiency, she does not tolerate what is happening in the world.

And so it's become very apparent to me that there's this work to be done in this realm of the archetype of the wounded maiden. Because if you were to look at how this culture kind of suspends women in this state, it now being women's responsibility, it's like not our fault what happened to us, but it is our responsibility just like it's everybody's to, to disrupt this trance.

Right? And so, but I've really seen it as this journey, actually. Well, I'll go back and say that I have this theory that there is a point when we're in our maidenhood. where we are fully embodied. We know who we are. We are in touch with the potential and the essence of who we are. And it's a deeply felt feeling of like, I can do anything.

And from birth, women are kind of microdosed these messages about the feminine. And so here she is on the threshold of initiation into, you know, What would be this right of passage that would take her from Maidenhood into mother? You know where in indigenous cultures, actually those women who are full of themselves, the kind of mother archetype would be kind of waiting on the other side of that bridge, but they're actually over here with us in Wounded Maiden.

We're all kind of stuck and the bridge has been burnt, so to speak. Mm-hmm. and. We escaped our bodies because our bodies became emotionally uninhabitable and we exploded up into our mind, which is where we're like trapped in this kind of trance of unworthiness. And actually I see the journey as kind of coming back to the body, back to all of the places that we were taught were sinful, wrong, shameful.

So you start with the creation story, the story of Eve, or however many stories or, or messages that have been microdosed to us. And you look at, you know, even just the way that we see the feminine or our experience, our own mothers had been patriarchal. And so what our experience or our model is for what the true divine, strong feminine, sacred integrated, fully embodied feminine is, is like, The stuff of legends, like we don't actually see it in the world.

So for me, and, and I've been able to find it as, as I've continued to remember, and I've been able to find women who are fully embodied in that way. And I think we're healing a lot of these, uh, wounds, which is the sisterhood wound, the mother wound, and coming kind of back looking at those shadows that the wounded child and starting to remember ourselves whole.

And of course the journey of the feminine or the heroines journey includes the masculine. And so that's also, I think another part of this is that our journey actually encompasses and embraces and then integrates the masculine and. It just seems to me that that is where wisdom happens, is in this triad of, you know, the masculine, the feminine, and the eternal child.

That it's actually remembering the eternal child and, and helping to heal the child. That activates kind of the union between the masculine and the feminine and brings that levity and that playback where there's like that wholeness again. So anyway, I've been kind of working with that theory. 

Miquel: I couldn't have said it better.

That's it. That's the map. .

Monica: Yeah. Well it just, yeah, go ahead. , 

Miquel: let this, well, obviously I'm not a woman. I've worked on my Anima, so it's much better. But there, I would suggest to your readers from a gnostic standpoint, and yes, the gnostics had many, uh, female protagonists. In fact, unlike most sex in the world, a lot of the, their sex were founded by women, uh, Salome, Miriam, all that.

Even the men exist today were founded by a woman. And women could hold places in the, in the church services. They could hold leadership places. Again, Mary Magdalene is a perfect example. She was a, 

Monica: well, hell, we could get pregnant without men, couldn't we ? 

Miquel: That is true. Yes, there is, there is that work. If we look at the infancy gospel of James, where, uh, there was a, a sect of women who could get themselves pregnant, uh, in the temple.

This might have existed in the temple of Jerusalem as an ancient tradition, but you gave birth to Messiahs and women only. But anyway. There's this book by a scholar, Celine Lilly, which I've had on the show, and it's called The Rape of Eve. 

Monica: Mm-hmm

Miquel: and it really covers what you've covered because in the gnostic gospels, especially the, the three creation ones, there is the certain commonalities.

One is that Sophia comes down as and becomes Eve. She's the one who has to wake him, has to wake up. Adam, who doesn't realize he's a slave to the demiurge and she, she, she's there to wake him up. She's an avatar of Sophia, if you would, and all these tech, once the Aons find out, They bring everything against her.

They insult her. They steal her voice. They continually rape her gang rape her. It's brutal. It really is brutal. And you, Celine shows the different cycles of psychology. For example, they're raping her and part of her goes into a tree and she says, ah, this is disassociate of disorder 2000 years ago. It's over.

And. But at the end, Eve succeeds. She, she, she's able to get it together and she basically looks at Adam and said, you know, I've been through hell, but I'm here to wake you up. We're gonna win this battle because, uh, they're evil or they're mechanistic. And Adam says, all right, let's do it. And together, Adam and Eve begin the restoration of humanity.

So I would suggest for your readers to read The Rape of Eve. It's a beautiful book. Or get Celine on your podcast. She's, she's an amazing scholar.

Monica: Oh my God, I would love that. 

Miquel: She's amazing. And she could speak more to the, again, to, to women. The other one too. And also Celine was part of this book, but there's agnostic text called Thunder Perfect Mind.

Monica: Yes. I love that.

Miquel: Yes. And it is, when it comes to the divine feminine, it's, it's probably the most perfect one. Cause it's, uh, it's this, this, uh, gr this goddess figure, probably Sophia or Eve and she's talking about who she is. Yes. And she just lays all her cards on the table. I am the whore. I am the holy one.

I am the mother. I have been outcast. I am, you know, and she just goes on this incredible, beautiful story. And I've told people in my groups, you know, Get Thunder, Perfect Mind. And if there's a storm outside, just recite it. Just go outside in the rain and recite it, pray it, because it is extremely powerful.

And one of the most beautiful, some of scholars said one of most beautiful poems in the history of humanity, and even Ridley Scott did a commercial for Prada talking about thunder perfect mind that you, your listeners can find on you too. But, uh, thunder would be probably the best way. And it, again, the interesting thing is that she lays her cards on the table, how she's been brutalized, but how she's, she also mentions all her victories, all the things.

But at the end of the day, she is in control. She realized I'm the one in control. At the end of the day, all these things that happened to me have made me into, I'm into who I'm, and for men, we have the same thing, but people don't see in the gospel of John. The one thing that is true is that Jesus is in control.

He set the divine drama. He knows how it's gonna end, but he's in control. There's scenes where they try to grab him and he just goes through a wall. He's the storyteller of this all, but it's a necessary story for the logos, the word that became flesh. So he's in control and this divine tr drama is for his own self-actualization, just as it is for ours.

What did the scholar say? Saga. You can just put in two words or one sentence. It's uh, how God went crazy and became us and how we reverse the course. So you have, you have the logos and the gospel of John is drama and Jesus is going, I am I. He's telling us. Yes. Yes. I'm we are, we are. But the feminine answer is thunder.

Perfect mind, cuz it's the same thing. She understands I'm in control, I'm the storyteller, but I have to go down and get brutalized, rejected. But I also will rule as a goddess, I will also reach these incredible heights, but I will fall. So I would suggest your, your, your, your listeners to, uh, check out thunder.

Perfect mind. They won't forget it. Oh my 

Monica: God. Yeah. Right. It's like we're all having this experience of. Of knowing ourselves as God 

Miquel: and it's all happening at once. Remember, dream time, linear time is a lie. Time is a lie. This is all you're being crucified at the same time you are. Mary Magdalene is holding you in the garden at the same time.

You know that's what Thunder is saying. This is all happening to me at once.

Monica: That's right. That's right. Oh my goodness. What a rich conversation. Miguel. Thank you so much. My goodness. This has just been like deeply nourishing and my mind is like, You know, completely blown. 

Miquel: Oh, thank you. It was fun. 

Monica: Yeah, it was so much fun.

Miquel: Yeah. I know it sounds strange, we're talking about these dark gnostics, but there is a form of catharsis. Again, we go back to Inanna, she had to go down and get her ass kicked to really reach her potential. 

Monica: Yeah, she really did. And you know, once you've kind of experienced that, and this is something that I talk about all the time, is that, you know, as Glennon Doyle says, she used the word brutal.

Right? Brutal and beautiful. And it's, it is that experience that we must go through, you know, to kind of have the awakening. And of course it's, it's never over, you know, it's the good news and the bad news, right? It's like the work is never done and yet, coming back to life on this side of it, it's like such a different experience.

You know, where I am, you know, there is this sense of oneness and this deep appreciation and holding that tension in the middle. Like, you know, it's just become my goal to extend, you know, the time in which I'm not in the trance because we all go back in and out of it. But it's like, how, how? longer. Can I stay out of it?

That's where I feel it is. Like my new, my new game, you know, that I play is like, how long can I just hold, you know, hold the tension of the opposites without lapsing into Right the trance again. And, uh, so yeah, and I want my, uh, listeners to be able to follow, you know, you know, your work. So please take the opportunity, Miguel, to invite to lead them where you'd like them to go.

I know you have a Patreon. Tell us more and then we can let you have your day back. 

Miquel: Yeah, I would, my webpage is the god above god.com and that has all the resources, uh, my podcast, videos, books, articles, any contact form if you wanna reach out. Uh, or you can just type, um, Aon, a e o n. Next letter is bite, b y t e.

And uh, it should pop up on your, uh, search engine. And yeah, just go there and you'll find all these nice littles that have. 

Monica: So good. Yes, heretics. I love them all good. All right, well, and thank you again just for everything. I just so appreciate the tremendous value you've brought to my life over the years.

And for our listeners, we will be sure to put all of Miguel's links and the many resources that he mentioned in the show notes, and hopefully we'll get a chance to have him back on soon. And until next time, more to be revealed.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.