134_Shannon Claire === Shannon: felt like for me, I felt like I lived my life inside the home and my life outside the home now. Other people saw it. Like, it was so obvious to other people in my family, you know, but I would try to cover up as much as I could because even then it was to protect my ex-husband. I'm like, well, I don't want people to think badly of him. Yeah. So I would try to minimize the damage of what other people saw. Cause it was, it was obvious he had a severe anger problem. You could just tell, like everybody could see it. And even when I was dating him, he was the same that I was just unhealthy, emotionally, mentally as this teenager who had been through her own trauma and what's going, you know, that's where the rebellion came from. And that was what I was comfortable with. That was normal to me, the chaos of the relationship matched the chaos that was feeling inside and then anything other than that felt foreign and, and not okay for me. And so it was definitely. Two lives and I was living, I thought I was compartmentalizing it better than I was like, looking back. === Monica: Welcome to The Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of The Revelation Project Podcast. Just a quick warning today, my guest and I are going to be talking about the subject of abuse. So please take care of yourself, do whatever you need to do. I trust that you will, but I did want to add a trigger word. My guest today is Shannon. Claire. Shannon. Claire helps entrepreneurial woman become unforgettable so that they can build a thriving business and live the life. They love without sacrifice as a multi-passionate and seasoned entrepreneur of over 16 years. She is a sought after international brand photographer, a mentor and a coach for entrepreneurial women who are in transition to their next level of success. She is a mom to three teens and a toddler, a fiance, and a beach lover. She's also a conversation starter and an eternal optimist, which I love today. We're going to be talking not only about her work, but also about her upcoming documentary. Called trapped by faith. Join me in welcoming Shannon, Claire. Hi, Shannon. Shannon: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Monica: Uh, it's great to have you and what a subject. So for my listeners, whoo. Shannon just showed me the trailer to her upcoming documentary, which won't be out till next year. And perhaps the trailer won't even be out for another little while, but I got to tell you, I burst into tears. It was absolutely beautiful. And woop, and it was really poignant. It's such an interesting subject for me because I it's relatable to me being kind of trapped in a marriage by faith, which you'll learn more about today. Like what does that mean? Some of you who are listening know exactly what that means, but. It's a lot to unpack because so many of us are raised inside of patriarchal religions, that discount abuse that often gaslit women into staying in abusive marriages. And so there's, there's a lot, a lot there. That's just the tip of the iceberg. So, but it was a powerful trailer and I can't wait. I just told Shannon I wanted to be on her launch team because it's a subject that I am very passionate about. So Shannon, just tell us a little bit more, like tell me, first of all. You know, when the trailer will be out, so our listeners can see it. But tell me more about the film and what really inspired you to, to make it. Shannon: Yeah. So trailer date is to be determined. We would like to get it out this year, just putting the final touches on it, really at this point. But what inspired me to make the film? All I can say as a lightning strike to the heart, God's speaking directly to me, this needs to be done. It's never something I even fathomed or thought about doing in the past, creating a documentary, especially about me. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to take the focus off of me and the film and my co-producer. And director's like, this is your story. Like it needs to be in here. And as uncomfortable as that makes me, I also know that my story can help countless women. And so here I am bearing it all and sharing some of the most difficult points in my life. Monica: Yeah, cause it's really tender. It's really vulnerable. Isn't it? It's really an, it involves other people who love you. So it's like what a tremendous amount of courage that it takes. There's so much here too. So I would love for you to share with our listeners more about your faith tradition and kind of. Yeah, what was going on? Like, take us back if you, if you don't mind to just kind of a little bit more about your story and what trapped by faith really means to you. Shannon: Yeah. So I grew up going to church regularly, definitely had, you know, about, of major teenage rebellion and ended of being pregnant my senior year of high school, actually the summer before going into my senior year. And so got married right after graduating pretty much. And I ended up in this marriage that was toxic to say the least I did not recognize that I was being emotionally abused for many, many years. It took me until 2014, which was 12 years of marriage. To know that what I was experiencing wasn't normal and it was in fact the abuse. And so having grown up in the church, you know, continuing to go to church off and on throughout my adult life, the focus was always on keeping marriages together. And we never really talked about what if it doesn't work outside of adultery or physical abuse. You know, those are two obvious reasons. The church is like, okay, if these things happen, you have our permission to leave. And this is, this is my word. Well, I always thought to be true. And I remember even when I got married, just thinking like, I am not going to fail at this, we're going to make this work. So many people give up so easily, they just let go of their marriage. They're not taking the sacred commitment seriously. They think the grass is greener on the other side. And so through my struggles in the marriage, you know, I just kept coming back to like, you don't leave. It's just not something that you do. And we thought counseling almost immediately after being married and went to counselor after counselor, after counselor, throughout the course of the marriage, uh, the last year or so of the marriage, we were being counseled by the church that we both attended. Because back then when we were first married, my husband did not go to church, wanted nothing to do with it. Eventually he started going, looking back. I think it was just another way to control me through getting to know scripture through having the church on his side in this at least is what it felt like to me. It gave him more power over me. And so in the counseling that I, we received, it was made very clear to me that I would not be supported in leaving him. I felt completely trapped. As you know, that's where the title of the documentary came from. Again, another, like in a moment of inspiration, like trapped, I was trapped. I felt trapped by my faith and the counseling I received was just, I felt helpless. I felt like there was no way. And I felt completely invalidated. I felt like I was being gas lit not only by my ex husband, but by the church. And I can't speak for the whole church for a specific person in there who was counseling us together. And so my goal with filming this documentary is to raise awareness because I don't think the people counseling that's had ill intention. That's the thing they think they were doing good. Right? They went out, I truly don't believe they're out to harm me. They thought keeping the marriage together would be the best thing for my family, for the kids. And, you know, that was just the lie that I had always bought into. And I think one of my biggest regrets is not leaving sooner and staying out sooner because I did leave two times before the final time. I also believe everything happens in the time that it's supposed to happen. And I wouldn't be where I am today. If things wouldn't have happened the way they have from the past. And I'm very grateful for my life today, but that is the overall journey. feeling trapped in that marriage. Monica: Did you, I'm sorry. Did you mention what, what was the faith? Was it Catholic? Was it? Oh, Kristen. Okay. Shannon: Yeah. So I grew up in a Presbyterian church and we went to an assemblies of God church at the time when we were being counseled. Monica: Yeah. Okay. And then how do you define emotional abuse and how did you learn that? There was such a thing. Shannon: Okay. So another strike to the heart. One day I was in church and I just remember feeling that nudge look up or emotional abuse. Literally never crossed my mind before that moment. And when I looked it up, I was blown away because I could check every single box just about. And I also, at that time learned about the cycle of abuse, which I had never heard of. Okay. Not long before looking this up. I remember I'd sketched out in a journal, the cycle of abuse I was experiencing because I started to recognize a pattern in the behavior. And when I saw it right there, I was speechless. I'm like, oh my gosh, like I feel validated. I feel like I'm not crazy. This is a real thing. This is happening to me. Yeah. Because up until this point, it's like, I just kept trying to do everything I could do to fix things and nothing ever worked. And what happened in my marriage was there was always something that was fixated upon a problem, whether it was my business was a problem for years. So, you know what, one year I just gave it up. I'm like, I'm done. I'm not going to be in business anymore because I wanted him to see that, that wasn't actually the. And I knew that in my heart, but I also was just exhausted from fighting about it all the time and raising kids. And I was home schooling them at the same time as well, three kids. And so I give up the business and of course he's like, well, I never told you to do that. I didn't say you had to do that. And I'm like, you didn't say I had to give it up. But every time I had to leave to photograph a wedding, the kids would be crying at my feet because he would antagonize them. Mommy's leaving, mommy's going to work. She's not going to be here all day. I would literally have them wrapping their arms around my legs and crying at times because I was leaving. Monica: Yeah, I was well, and I was going to say, giving some examples, the, which you just did, right. Is of what emotional abuse can look like. And so it can look like manipulation. It can look like gaslighting gaslighting for, for those listeners is when. Somebody basically denies or makes you feel like you're crazy. Like you, they might say to you, like I never said that when you know, that they did when, right. Like there's just, it's truly crazy-making behavior. It can show up. As Shannon was mentioning in these cycles, which often can look like an explosion of rage and terrorizing, sometimes the family with kind of like a walking on eggshells and the tension increases, increases, increases until it there's finally an explosion. And then there's screaming and threatening behavior and sometimes like banging things. And I mean, it can be very jarring. It can kind of seep into yourselves where you just don't ever feel safe or you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's called walking on eggshells. And then once the kind of explosion of rage or vitriol happens, there's typically then kind of a receding or an apology period. This will never happen again. I won't do this again, or it's, I promise I'll get help or we'll go to therapy or there's flowers or gifts, or there's some kind of making of a men's and then it kind of slowly goes back to the tension again. And then until the tension it's so there's the cycle, right? And then you go back around again. So it's just unending and it's to live in that environment year after year after year, it actually, it slowly erodes your spirit. Every time your inner light comes back online. It's like somebody blows it out over and over and over again. And it's not the type of thing that you can just put boundaries because you have someone who doesn't know what that means. Doesn't respect. Those boundaries will trespass over those boundaries time and time again. And of course, when you have children and by the way, this can happen to both women and men. I want to be really clear about this is this is not just women that experienced this. I actually know many men who've experienced this, but when you have children, as you know, you will almost do anything to make them stop. And that can also become a real issue because our children pick up on these things, they embodied. The tension, they think it's normal for parents to behave this way. So it's just so important that we shed light on this, that we reveal what this type of abuse is really all about. And that we look at where faith traditions that we've grown up in may, like Shannon said, not be maliciously, wanting to keep us in relationships that are harmful, but that their doctrines kind of keep them fostering or nurturing something that really doesn't need to stay together. In fact, it's incredibly harmful and has many unintended consequences of staying because it's what perpetuates the generational wound that cute. This in place because those children end up growing up to model the behavior they saw in their homes. And I could go on and on and on about this subject because it, it was my own life. It was my own upbringing. It was my own childhood home. And then I went on to repeat the pattern in my first marriage. Shannon: As we do. And that's what really kills me about the whole situation is I'm now seeing the effects of that on my teenagers. And one of the things that did motivate me to leave was my daughter. At the time she was around six or seven, when she started having belly aches, she would hear daddy talking to me and she said to me, I hear how daddy talks to you. And I don't like it. And one day when I took them, I had to just take them out of the house. And we went for a drive just to get away from the situation. And she said, mom, I don't understand if daddy married you, why doesn't he love you? And I remember thinking like, gosh, I am showing my daughter a model of love. Like, this is what she's going to go into the world thinking love and marriages. And it was really an eye-opening moment for me because one of the big reasons I was thinking as well was for the kids, quote unquote, we're told, well, if you break up your family, the kids are going to be in a broken home. And how is this going to affect them? How has the abuse going to affect them? How has living in this environment? And why aren't we talking about that? Monica: Yeah, it's I actually also share that, you know, my children were having internalized symptoms of it as well, and I noticed certain things would happen and it was just like, they're shining little lights and spirits were just dimming and dimming and dimming. And I know. And I could see it. You know, one of them had stopped going to the bathroom. Like he was too scared to go to the bathroom normally. So there, I mean, TMI a little bit here, but like became like constipate as a little, little one, you know, all the time. And I think it's cause he was just always holding, you know, like protecting himself just from again, like just the, the in predictability and we underestimate what that does. And then same thing for my daughter. She used to just look at me and say, please make him stop mommy, please make him stop. And gosh, it's like, whoa, it's intense. And same thing. I just remember looking at her and having this moment where I suddenly kind of saw this almost like it was like a wink. It was in the blink of an eye, you know? I saw my matrilineal line and kind of like all of the women who had put up with abusive situations because, and were so adept at placating men who were filled with rage. And I want to also really mention here that I also have tenderness and compassion for men who also are, I would say in a lot of cases, the outcome of sometimes religious sanctioned abuse against women, right. They've also grown up with these myths and stories that put them on a pedestal. Create a hierarchy where they're over. They misused their power over women from those stories, which by the way, their stories it's like the myth makers made them, made these stories in order to take away women's power. You cannot convince me otherwise because I have now gone to the root of this and have uncovered where the story changed to fit the narrative. And so it's really important that women recognize that there was a time where women were celebrated. They were honored. They were revered for their abilities to create, to nurture to foster community too. And I do feel that that is coming back more and more. But the point that I want to make here is that men are also. The outcome of patriarchy, no one, nobody kind of gets out of this without being damaged in some way, but it's also men's job to do the work because there's a narcissism that comes with this type of behavior. There's a lot of rage because that's the only emotion men are allowed. Quote, unquote, to have. We don't teach our boys again, this is changing, but to have emotional intelligence, we tell them to man up, we say, boys will be boys. You know, there's all kinds of ways that we grew men to become abusers and it's got to stop. So anything you want to add to that? Shannon? Shannon: Yeah, definitely. I'm right there with you. I think. You know, although these men have to take care of their inner wounding, a lot of it is coming from inner living. And I have empathy toward, I mean, I feel empathy toward my ex-husband in many ways, even though the abuse continues to this day, when I have to interact with him, I just see the hurt little boy inside. And I can see that for a lot of people. And I think, you know, within the church, and this is something, again, I'm touching on in the documentary, get them help and support and show them their ways are wrong without forcing the women to stay in the situation. Monica: That's right. Shannon: Quote, unquote, forcing. And I think had my church then on my side and told my ex-husband, we're going to help her out of this situation. And you need to get some therapy on your own. It can not happen together in the same house. Had he heard that from them? Maybe. Maybe that would have been the shift he needed to heal and to become a better person and to stop abusing. I don't know, you know, who knows, but what I do know is we shouldn't just cast them aside, per se. They need help in therapy as well. And women need to know you don't eat. I mean, you can't stay with them while they're, while they're on their own healing journey is just not going to work because they're triggers for each other. Monica: That's right. And I mean, there's, there's so many ways that there are breakdowns in institutions where they just are not trauma informed. They just don't have the tools. And so how can they truly advise anyone? And I also want to point out that when we don't, when we're not trauma informed and we are leading quote unquote people, we go on to perpetuate harm as does. The mail and a lot of cases go on to perpetuate harm in another relationship and with other children. And if Jen and you had not gotten the help that you needed, you would have continued to choose the same pattern because it's, it's an unconscious thing that we're attracted to. We don't now you were also very, very young, but I also know so many women who stay in abusive relationships and of course, many of us know the statistics of that. Many of us can empathize with that, but those of us that have gotten out and received therapy or have rehabilitated ourselves in some way, shape or form, those are the people that I would encourage us all to listen to because there's life on the other side of this abuse and we've done. We don't know it, oftentimes when we're in an abusive marriage, it has eroded us to the point where we actually believe we're going to die, that we won't have the strength to get out because we're so depleted. We're so depleted our life force is like edits last fray. And it is so important that you take the steps you that to take, to protect yourself and to get out while you can. And of course, that's also a very dangerous proposition for a lot of women, because it's the point where sometimes emotional violence escalates to physical violence and you don't, we don't want that to happen. Shannon: Yes, it is important to get the help and to do it safely. I know that is, I was, we were at that point where it was at a turning point. And I believe if I wouldn't have gotten out when I did, I wouldn't be here today. And I'm not the only one who believes that other professionals who were involved in the situation said every sign pointed to this escalating to an extreme, because when the abusive partner is feeling backed into a corner, like they have nothing to lose. All reasoning is gone. They're just acting on pure rage and fear. And it's a terrifying place to be. Monica: It sure is. You know? And there's, I'd love to what you shared Shannon about the kid and what people, the bad advice people gave you about staying for the children. It's actually had, I not saw what it was doing to the children. I probably would've stayed as. It was what was happening to my children that gave me the strength to go. And, and I, it did, in my situation, it actually created a catalyst for all of us to get help. I know I'm lucky and blessed when I say that my ex was able to get the help he needed. And, you know, years later we have a co-parenting relationship. That's relatively stress free now. And that took a long time. And I know that that's not everybody's reality. Shannon: No, Monica: But it, it really was the catalyst. And there are some situations where that is possible. And it gave me as I, you know, really focused on my own therapy and my own understanding of what led to. Many things that I had to look at such as my co-dependence such as my, you know, I talk about the trance of unworthiness every day. So much of that actually came through my religion and my own upbringing. So unpacking all of that is a process. However, when you are not in a situation continually, that is keeping you under that kind of physical stress and strain, you'd be shocked at how much energy you then have that you didn't know that was going to be available to you, to focus on yourself, to focus on your children, getting everyone health. You know, and getting everybody's needs met in a way you couldn't when you were in the marriage. Shannon: Yeah. I thrived thrived after I left Monica: Me too. Shannon: After so many years of fearing, I couldn't do it. You know, you constantly told me you won't be able to run your business without me, even though he didn't do anything to help that I was just convinced I could never be financially independent. I knew he would make life as hard as possible for me in any way he could. I received no financial help from him for like the first full year. I didn't speak it either, but I was doing okay. Like my business took off once. I didn't have that baggage. What do you need out? And I was convinced otherwise I, Monica: Well, same. I remember thinking that I was like, I was convinced that I must be really hard to get along with. I was like, I was convinced that like, nobody. Want to be with me. I was convinced I was actually like physically repulsive. I mean, it's, I was so brainwashed in terms of what I believed about myself. And I had so many revelations as I got out of that situation where I was, I mean, I don't know about you, but for the longest time, I just wore like the same uniform of like black every day. Like I had like jeans, black, t-shirt black converse. Like I had, I had lost all of my ability to care about anything, but, you know, and I I'm thinking of like specifically learning. And now 13 years into a relationship where there's nothing, but like for the most part, ease mutual respect of each other kindness supportive environment. And sometimes I look back and I think like, oh my gosh, I was convinced that I was impossible. I would hear things like you drove me to it, I guess. Right? Like it was like, I believed that I believed that somehow I was to blame. And that's that thing too, that we hear a lot in our upbringing is marriage is hard. Relationships are hard. You know, you need to stand by your man and pray for him. Like what Shannon: It wasn't until I was in a healthy relationship that I realized fully realized how bad things were when I was in that marriage, because. I met Mr. Wonderful and late 2018, very unexpectedly and the mutual love, respect and support that I receive and give, I didn't even know it existed or was a possibility for me, never in a million years. Do we have moments where like we argue, I mean a little bit here and there, but truly like, I feel cherished and loved and I, I give that back so much and I'm thankful. That my kids get to see a health relationship now, but I had a lot of healing to do on my own before. I'm thankful for the time I had as a single woman, I loved loved. It was only a year of my life. Again, I was not expecting to meet someone that quickly, but I had been doing personal development and personal growth work for many, many, many years before I left that marriage. And that I think helped me in the transition greatly. Monica: Right. Because you had some tools that you had, and it's amazing. I can relate to that statement too. It was like for a while I had a lot of shame after I left. It was like, how could I not have known, or I should have known better because I, I actually did have tools, but it was literally like this strange disassociation. It was like, I was pretending not to know that. Being abused. It was it's like it lived, that experience was such a reflection of my fractured psyche actually. And so, yeah, I'm so grateful because my kids, same thing like they now are, I think so grateful and they, and I'm so grateful. And my, my now husband, we're not married, but I always say we're like an eternally engaged and it's just easier to call him my husband. But, you know, he's been such a wonderful example of a healthy, integrated male who is tender and kind and emotionally intelligent. And, you know, and I also feel that it, like I said, it was a catalyst for all of us to really. Grow and seek the help that we needed. And I wanted to also go back to something that you shared with me that I think is really important, which was you had actually in kind of your darkest moment, you had actually started to fantasize about death, that it would, that it would actually be easier to just die. And I, that happened to me too. And I think it's important to mention for our listeners because. I think it's common. And I did again, I didn't know. I didn't know how much life there was to live and how opposite I would feel once I was out of that situation, but I wanted to die. And I think that's what brought up tears for me in the documentary was just feeling that feeling of like my God, I wanted to die. I didn't want to be alive anymore. I just, I was so tired. Shannon: Just tired, tired. Doesn't begin to touch what you feel after being worn down. I felt sense of despair. That was so deep in my soul and I felt empty and hollow. And I remember one day. When I had a total and utter breakdown while I was driving in my car and it was actually on the phone with my best friend when this was happening. And she kept trying to get, like, you need to pull over, like, you can not be driving. You need to pull over. And then this was one of those moments. I was just ready to end, ended all because I realized, like I kept saying, I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And it dawned on me. I could keep doing it. Like I could probably do it the rest of my life, but I didn't want to. And when I thought that, like, I'm just done, like, I don't want to do it anymore. It wasn't like, okay, so I'm going to leave. It was like, okay, so I'm going to kill myself like I'm done. And when you're in those moments, I mean, my kids are my everything. They are everything to me and I love them dearly. But in those moments you feel like even that isn't enough to keep you here because you think that you're just doing them harm by saying Monica: Yeah. Or you think they'd be better off if you were just gone. Shannon: Yeah. Like just gone. And I just felt like they couldn't go on another moment. And I reached that point multiple times in that last year of marriage. And it's a miracle that, you know, nothing did happen. I don't, you know, people ask, well, what stopped you? I don't know. I don't know what stopped me. Monica: You know what Shannon you're reminding me. Like, I couldn't even play, like, I couldn't even find levity with my children or like play with them or like find my joy or like be present when they needed me to be present because I was so fractured. I was so traumatized. And that's the other thing. That changes too. Like hindsight is always 2020, right? Where you look back and you're like, oh my God, why didn't I leave sooner? Why did I stay so long? But you also learned that whenever it finally occurs to you, that it's time. That's the time you can't keep beating yourself up for staying. And ultimately it's trusting that your timing is exactly right. And also what I'm hearing Shannon is that it did destroy your faith. And I think that's also what happens to a lot of people is they think I'm going to be ex-communicated, I'm going to be kicked out of. Place of belonging. What is my family going to think? And if you're me, you made everything look so pretty on the outside. That by the time you actually did leave, people were just like, thought you were a demon because they were like, you have it all. And I had done such a great job making it look good. Oh, it looked so good on the outside. The white picket fence, successful beautiful children, handsome husband, all the things, the pretty picture, but behind the facade, O M G was there ever a pile of steaming? You know what? Shannon: Yeah, I felt like for me, I felt like I lived my life inside the home and my life outside the home now. Other people saw it. Like, it was so obvious to other people in my family, you know, but I would try to cover up as much as I could because even then it was to protect my ex-husband. I'm like, well, I don't want people to think badly of him. Yeah. So I would try to minimize the damage of what other people saw. Cause it was, it was obvious he had a severe anger problem. You could just tell, like everybody could see it. And even when I was dating him, he was the same that I was just unhealthy, emotionally, mentally as this teenager who had been through her own trauma and what's going, you know, that's where the rebellion came from. And that was what I was comfortable with. That was normal to me, the chaos of the relationship matched the chaos that was feeling inside and then anything other than that felt foreign and, and not okay for me. And so it was definitely. Two lives and I was living, I thought I was compartmentalizing it better than I was like, looking back. I really, you know, yeah. Monica: You're bringing this, this conversation is bringing up so much for me because what else is bringing up is same thing. I knew when, when we were dating and it's so interesting because similarly people knew they'd seen the anger, he couldn't hide that. They had seen him blow up and rage or whatever, but interestingly enough, it was always like, oh, he must have a lot on his mind. Oh, poor guy worked so hard. He must be tired. There were so many excuses for it. And I think that that also happens to women and. Even my relatives and family made excuses for it. And it actually was because it was so normal and because water seeks its own level. I tended to also surround myself with people who were also not so healthy emotionally, because when you think about it, when people who are healthy are exposed to that kind of thing, they're either going to reflect that back to you or ask you questions, you know, and be like what's going on here, or they're going to get the hell out of Dodge because they're like, I'm not, you know, this is not a situation that I want to be part of. This is bad news. So, you know, we can tend to fool ourselves because thinking that the people who are hanging out with us are super healthy. They're if they're with you and they're exposed to that, and they're encouraging you to stay there, not healthy. They're not no. Shannon: And you know what you're reminding me of, one of the things I really wanted to point out is even though I had one pastor, well, a couple making me feel like there was no way out of this marriage. It was also another pastor who showed me the light. I remember I was just seeking permission from somebody outside of me that it was okay. And that I would be okay. I just needed some reassurance. Um, a friend of mine, she and her husband were actually pastors at a church. And I told her what was going on. And they both sat down with me and I told him everything and he just filled me up and encouraged me. Like, you need to leave, you need to leave him. You need to not go back. This isn't just a separation. I think you need a divorce. And it was absolutely what I needed to hear because I just felt like I was committing like this unforgivable sin and that everybody was turning into. I remember in counseling with the church, I was in with a woman there whom I love dearly. And I still do, like, I still have respect and love for this woman, but she would start talking about, well, you know, I don't want you to leave this with rose colored glasses. Like you're not gonna be able to keep your kids in the private school. Their life is gonna look a lot different for you. You might have to get a job and give up business. She talked about how are you going to fill your spice cupboard when you have a new house? Monica: Oh, oh, oh Shannon: Lie, no lie. She was telling me all of the things that could go wrong, which were obviously all ready, scary me into not leaving this toxic situation. And the funny thing, the funny thing they had just got done having a domestic violence training at that church through the local WCA. So she took me through, they had these printouts, she asked me all these questions and stuff and it was. Yes. Yes. You're experiencing abuse. Monica: And, but how are you going to fill your spice cabinet if you leave? Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. Here's what I needed to hear from the church. And this is what if anybody from the church is hearing this and when you watch my documentary, when a woman is coming to you in this situation, I was breaking down every week, balling in her office, uh, you know, it's abuse, whether it's physical or emotional, you give her the support. She needs to get the hell out. You know what you know, who's going to fill your spice, cupboard, Shannon. We are, we're going to make sure you have food. We're going to make sure you have shelter. We're going to make sure your kids are taken care of. You're not on your own. We have your back. That's right. That is what I needed. And I didn't get it from them Monica: And that, oh God, I know I can. I'm like, I see the emotion. I feel the emotion because it's, I had that kind of thing too, where it was the devil's advocate kind of situation. And I was like, oh my God, the devil does not need an advocate. You know what I mean? Like the devil never needs an advocate ever offer, and guess what? I was living with the devil. Shannon: Oh goodness. Monica: It's so it's like, unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's truly like, you cannot make this shit up, you know? And um, I want to share this too, that I had this experience because like you, I was looking for validation outside of myself, which is such a big theme. Now. I'm like, I developed this bill of rights for women because I needed one. I didn't know that I had the right to leave. I didn't know that I had the right to fire myself, to divorce, to put up boundaries, to declare something toxic. I had been so conditioned to look outside of myself for those things to look outside of myself, for permission, for validation, it just, it was so tragic and it's tragic because it's unconscious. We don't know because it's, it's the way we've been raised. We've been raised to think that we even need an inner mediary to talk to the divine. I mean, that, that was also my experience. And what I came to learn was that like my spiritual connection to everything, everything is inside of me, my power is inside of me. It's not, nobody else is going to give it to me. And I'll never forget this. One day I was walking in Barnes and noble. And similarly to you, I had gotten to the point where. I just was, I was just breaking down all the time, but I, and like, I couldn't, I couldn't express it to anybody. I couldn't explain. I couldn't. I felt like I had created this trap for myself, where I just had to, like, and my, my parents used to use the expression. You made your bed now lay in it. I mean, what a terrible expression. First of all, Shannon: I heard something similar when I was a teen mom get burned. Oh my gosh. Right. Not from my mother, but other people in my life. Yeah. Even the nurse at the hospital who gave me the test. Said that to me, I was like looking back. Yeah. Monica: Like just really, really fascinating, which is how we learned that our culture is so toxic and unhealthy by the way. But you know, another episode, another series. So anyway, I was walking in Barnes and noble this day and I was standing at this bookshelf at this area of poetry. And I swear to God, this book like tipped off of the shelf and I opened it to the page of the journey, Mary Oliver. And that poem it's like in that moment, I, and I have full body chills as I even mentioned it, because at that moment, the poem talks about, she stopped listening to their bad advice and she saved the only life she could save, which was her own, right? Like that's the theme of the poem. And it was like, oh my God. You know? And she Strode out into the world into the unknown, but doing the one thing that she could do. And that's the truth. It's like, we don't have power. Over anybody else, but ourselves, and to make those decisions and to just get honest with what's happening in our lives is so powerfully important because that's just the first step it's like, pretending not to know that I couldn't do this anymore was the first step I cannot do this anymore. It is making me sick. It is making my children sick and that alone is enough. Right. It's enough because I said so, because I'm not happy. That's enough. That's enough of a reason. I am not happy. And I had tried the things. So what I'd love to know is how did you come to learn? Who became, I know that one person, right. That helped you. And then how else was there anybody else that was a big help in illuminating this for you? Somebody that. Kind of came in as, as a wise guide or that helped you see it in a way that was powerful and helped you see how to get, get through it. Shannon: You know, there, there's definitely a couple people, there was actually a much older couple that had mentored us quite often for about a year. And we got connected with them because there was a day where I didn't feel safe to go home with him from church. It was, uh, it was some weeknight activity thing. And he was following me around the parking lot in his car. And I said, I'm not, I'm not coming home. I do not feel safe. And he's like, will you go in and talk to the pastor with me at least then I'll do that. So this pastor knew I didn't feel safe going home with him. And instead of helping to intervene in another way, he connected us with this older couple, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise because they are the most wonderful. Wonderful people. I just, I owe so much to them. They opened their house to me many times there was a safe space for me to go to. And so the end, they were instruments at all and emotionally protecting me, physically giving me a place of refuge whenever I needed it. And so I owe them a lot of gratitude and they never, they tried to help us. And they really did a lot of good validating me. They never told me I should leave. And it was the vibe of, it was like, this is your decision. You need to come to this decision on your own without me telling you what to do, kind of a thing. And so they were very helpful. My mother came down to where I live repeatedly because the last couple of months were turbulent. She even wrote an email to the church and I didn't know she was going to. Laying out her heart and her fears to the pastors who we were seeing. And you want to know what they did, this, isn't a documentary I'm going to give you a little spoiler. They've forwarded that email to me and my ex-husband. They forwarded that email. This is not the craziest thing that happened either. And it was one pastor in particular. So when I say they, he forwarded the email to me and my ex-husband completely shattering the rapport. My mother did have with my ex still up to that point. Oh. Because she could still talk to him and reason with him and like calm him down in moments. And after that, that was destroyed. Monica: Wow. Shannon: They put me, he put me in danger so many times it just boggles my mind. And that was one of them. Monica: I am speechless. I am speechless. Shannon: So she was, she was helpful. Uh, there was actually a local ministry that when I did find my own place, finally, after three months of living with other people, they helped me furnish the home with like basically, you know, towels, pots, and pans, like, cause I left with pretty much nothing. He told me you're taking nothing out of the house. So I had gotten out as many meaningful things as I could that were irreplaceable and just left the rest. There's still things of mine at that house that are irreplaceable. I don't know if I'll ever see them, but whatever. So there was this wonderful ministry that stepped up to help me. I had friends who were supportive because again, my family doesn't live where I live, so it was a lonely, scary place to be. And even finding the house that I found, I just saw God's hand in everything. Because I happened to be driving. I had a waitressing job, like once a week that I took the previous year when I had left before and I just kind of held onto it. The owner was a friend of mine and quite frankly, I liked getting out of the house, you know, to do that once a week. And it, it felt like security. I happen to be driving to work. And there was this little, teeny tiny for rent sign and in front of this little brick ranch house. And so I pulled over, wrote the number down and called them and I was self-employed. So, you know, it can be hard when you're self-employed to prove to somebody you're going to be able to pay them. And thankfully, my accountant wrote a letter like this is, you know, she ended the anticipated income over the next year because I was living with other people for a couple of months. I was able to save up money. So I had money for the down payment and everything. But even, even those landlords played a role in supporting me because they knew my situation loosely. I didn't share all the details. They were just so good to me. They were so good to me and so good and allowing me to rent that home. And it was the perfect little safe Haven myself and my children needed. Monica: Oh yeah. I always point to the magic that happens when you make a choice for yourself, when you finally stop being the martyr and self-sacrificing it, we're taught that it's the other way we're taught to self sacrifice. We're taught to be martyrs. We're taught to stay in situations that are honestly terrible for us. The moment really, I started. To love myself and because the love for myself didn't happen till later. But the choices that were more loving, the choices that I started to make that were more empowering for myself and my children, suddenly doors opened, miracles happened, you can't explain it. It just happens. And you can see Shannon right now, but she's nodding her head because it's just what we have. Those of us that have been through this dark dark night know to be true. It's honestly, there is something that happens when you get back into alignment ]with the truth and when the truth is that you need to leave. And the truth is that you have to protect yourself. And the truth is that you have children to care for and to raise and need to choose a healthy situation for yourself to do it. Things happen. And that's where my faith had to come in. Like, and I say my faith. And at that point I had left the Catholic church and I had found my own spiritual path. I had found my own way to communicate with, you know, source or great spirit or whatever it is that is this power, the quantum field. There's so many different names for whatever this energy is. I think, you know, we can tend to overthink that part, but the bottom line is that that's when the revelation project really begins is when the things that we can't see, the things that we can't make up, the things we can't, we could never anticipate happening start to happen. And as more gets revealed, the more gets healed. And so as we continue along this path, I just want to encourage those of you who are listening. That no you're in a situation and maybe this is a place to kind of start talking about how, you know, Shannon, but for those listening that know that you're in a situation that's a little bit sketchy and you're afraid to leave because you're afraid what will happen to you. I can't sit here and tell you, like, don't worry. It'll all be okay. Cause it is hard and it is challenging, but I promise you that there are people that come out of nowhere that will lend you a hand we'll offer their help and just ask for it. I will never forget the moment that I finally stopped trying to hold it all together. And I just allow, I said yes to the mass, you know, is what I, what I always talk about. I said yes to the mass. I knew that the world was going to fall apart. If I CA if I stopped holding it together, because I was the one holding it together, that things would have to start happening. And I just said a prayer. I don't even, I don't even think I realized I was saying a prayer, but I said, please help me show me the way, show me the way. So Shannon, how do you know, what would you say to our listeners? How, how do you know when you're in an abusive relationship? Shannon: Yeah, so I think one of the underlying ways you can tell is if you're living in fear, if you're living in constant dread or fear of your partner's reaction, then you're probably living in an abusive situation. Holes in the wall are not normal. That's abuse punching the wall, not normal abuse. If your partner here's the thing. So many times they're so manipulative that it's hard for the woman or the man in that situation to even see clearly to know they're not the problem. Cause I will tell you even at the end, well, not the end, but the latter part of our marriage, I was questioning myself like, well, I am ignoring his needs while I'm not giving him much love right now. And I would beat myself up over and be like, well, maybe it probably is more loving and more this or that. He wouldn't act the way he does. It's all bullshit. But that's what we start to believe about ourselves. And so if you are, if you're questioning, you know, consistently, like, am I the one that's wrong? Am I, and yet your partner is belittling B rating. There's so many things. Financial abuse, part of emotional abuse. If they are dictating how you can spend money, not allowing you to spend money, that's a big part of it. If they are trying to distance you from close family and friends, huge red flag abuse, part of the control, and it looks different for everybody. So I don't want you to hear this and think, well, I see one or two things, but not all of the things. So it must not be abuse for me, it felt like just a constant eroding of me as a person and of my worth that felt like death by a thousand cuts because yeah, sometimes there was name calling, but it wasn't all the time. It was a constant, I could never do anything. Right. And the moments of rage and anger, they would come. But you know, the hardest part was everything in between. Monica: And a lot of people say it takes two Shannon. That's another big one, which I could go on and on about, but I won't. And that's bullshit too. I want to say, because. I was convinced of that. Like I was like, well, it takes two. So I must be, and I'm not saying that I didn't play my part in it by staying by enabling by for sure. But it doesn't actually happen that way. Like, yes, you can have two very damaged, two very abusive people, but there is always a dominant abuser. And if you know that before you met this person, you were a fairly reasonable, reasonable and peaceful person. Just please don't buy into that, just please don't. And as a last question, Shannon, I would just love to know, like, how does, what you've been through in your life help you to support other women in. The work you do with women now, Shannon: It's been huge. So I don't, you know, my job, like what I do with women is really to help them to help them shine in all areas of their life. So I work with entrepreneurial women and I'm a brand new photographer and a coach and mentor as well. And so I understand at a deep level, what it feels like to want to hide what it feels like to not want to be visible, to not be seen. I understand the deep feelings of imposter syndrome and unworthiness that we can all feel for many different reasons. And I want to make this clear, I am not like a domestic violence counselor. I don't like specialize in that at all. Just my background informs and helps me to just understand and have empathy with the clients that I work with. And I feel like. Having to hide for so long. I have such a passion for helping women to thrive in all areas of life, because I believe not like you can have it all. You can have the successful, amazing business. You can have the beautiful relationship. You can be an excellent mother because I was told for so long, I couldn't do all those things. Well, if you have a good business, then you're a terrible mom because you're neglecting your kids. He would throw that on me all the time. And so I am here to dismantle those lies for women and to help them just reclaim and even maybe for the first time, have the audacity to have a grander vision for their life and to actually give them the tools and the support they need. To make it possible. Monica: Yeah. I love that. I mean, right. It's like dare to dream, right. That you can have just such a beautiful life and yeah, it's it's so I love that so much. And just really, I think too, it's like you're uniquely suited based on what you've gone through and I'm sure that you wouldn't wish it upon anybody. And there's a training and development that you go through when you come through the other side of this, where you then become the revealer, the illuminator for other women. And so just know that if you're listening to this, like you have no idea who you're becoming, even as you're listening to this and whether you can relate to, you know, the conversation that we had today or not, it that's just true for any of us who. You're not happy today if you're, you know, listening to this podcast. And you're just kind of wondering if it's ever going to get better. It's so important that you remember that there's so many avenues to getting where you need to go. It's as soon as you kind of step out of your comfort zone, you enter into a nonlinear zone, you know, and like we can't see it from where we're standing. So that first step is the most important step because that's where the true revelation begins. It's like it's saying yes to the mass, whatever that decision is that you need to make for your life. Maybe you're listening to this and you've been in a job where it's just like killing you in some ways. It's very similar to being in an abusive relationship. It's got its own. Flavor of nothing out your inner light. So there's all kinds of things in life that we can kind of tend to think we need to stay for the children or for the money or for the, and it's just not true. It's part of the illusion that keeps us locked in the transparent worthiness. So Shannon, I can't wait to see your film. I can't wait to be part of your amazing launch into the world with this work, because we're all at that point, I think where we're just so ready to kind of break these generational patterns and live the life that we know that we, we can live, you know, and, and have a more beautiful relationship with ourselves and with just what we're up to in the world. So thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your story and being so vulnerable with us today. And Shannon: I appreciate the opportunity. And for any woman out there, who's listening to this. I just want you to know there is hope and there is a different life available for you. And if you find that you are in an abusive relationship, start gathering support from other people around you. Now, even if it's just one person. You need to seek out that support. Monica: Thank you. And for our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Shannon's links in the show notes, and until next time more to be revealed, We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.