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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode.

Of the Revelation Project podcast. So today we're kind of coming back around to this discussion of the feminine business model. And I wanted to just preface this conversation by letting all of the listeners know that actually this is a series that I've been doing over the course of the last few months, and you'll find that every so often I'll intersperse an episode that continues this conversation.

And what I'm up to here is exploring. , what is the feminine business model? And so my understanding of this as I understand it up until now anyway, is that the foundation of a feminine business model. Is for me about inviting and embracing feminine values to integrate and co-create with the more structured values of the masculine.

And while these core aspects of life are genderless and cannot be divided into a dual worldview, conscious life itself is a dance where dualities make up the whole. So in the past, this has been rather a one-sided dance . And if you ask me, we're stepping on our. all the time because it's largely dominated by what we call the masculine, right?

And these aspects of life and the masculine traits. While wonderful have been given all of the value and have been rewarded with money and respect, and has been thought to provide a higher perspective on how business and the economy should be operated, but as a result, All suffering. There's men are suffering, women are suffering, all genders are suffering, and especially children are actually suffering.

Our planet is also suffering, and despite what one might think, men are hurting deeply in this unbalanced model. So we know that it's time for a shift and it's happening all around us right now, which can also mean that it's very disorienting. . And so what I'm really up to is bringing guests on the podcast who can speak to this, who can start to create language and reveal what some of these components of a more feminine business model look like.

So today I've got a wonderful guest with us. Her name is Tanya Moushi, and she. What's called a good business enthusiast. She is a consultant at Moushi and Co, which is an interdisciplinary firm that believes that business gets better by applying functions of philosophy and art. She is nicknamed the Chief Empathy Officer among her peers.

She's an avid supporter of downtown Phoenix, and she believes in the power of generosity and cites Seth Goden as one of her most influential. Mentors. She is the author of Love Is The Business Plan. And so, you know, I could go on and on because I've already had just an incredible opportunity to get to know her a little bit before we jumped on.

But instead I just, you know, like, just, just the, the title, like, love is the Business Plan. I was like, say no more. Like, let's jump in. I'm gonna stop talking now and invite her to join us. Hi Tanya. 

Tanya: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. 

Monica: Oh, thank you so much for this work of art. That is your, you know, your vision.

You know, like love is the business plan. I wanna just jump right in and say like, where does that come from? 

Tanya: Yeah. So, uh, I know we talked about this a little bit. We have some great snippets too that we that we, in our early conversation, The book comes from an article that I wrote in 2015 with the same title.

Actually, I, you know what, I'm sorry. Actually the title is actually a little bit different. The title was The New Business Plan Love. Ah, and it was written for Delivering Happiness, which is a culture consulting company, and. It really just came out of this idea that I love you is a process and it's not just for people, it's also for businesses and it's, it's one of those things that it is actually part of a cultural embed of how you approach things and, you know, within the business, doesn't matter if it's towards clients or towards employees, you know, delivering happiness used it.

As this way to think about how to love their employees so that they would do great work. Mm-hmm. and I just really took that and wanted to say that this applies across the board. If you're a business owner, this applies just as much to your clients. To your customers, you know, as, um, as anything else. So that's where it came from.

Monica: I love that. Well, and I also, you know, kind of really hear it in this way of loving our business that when we're in love, right? When we're in this state of love, we're actually. Everything gets to belong Right. In that, in that place. Mm-hmm. and that when we love something, we nurture it. Yeah. Right. We, we look for nourishing ways to nurture and help it to grow.

And so business can be right. Like we can think of our businesses and start to think of our businesses in this way. Because I think up until now a lot of people have related to their business. In this very kind of domination role.

Tanya: It's the moneymaking machine.

Monica: Moneymaking machine, right? Yeah. And, and I think, you know, it's like starting to recognize all of these parts of the whole, and so partnerships, employees, people, we wanna engage business relations.

Tanya: Yeah. That it's for purpose, you know, it's for purpose as much as it is for profit that, that those two things are this at the. Level, you know, it's not imbalance in this way. It is for purpose and it is for profit. And I think a lot of times people underestimate the power of that mentality because they, they don't think of their everyday interactions in the business world as having that much meaning or that much impact.

And my argument is that it does. Yes. And if you treat it like it does, it does. 

Monica: Yes. Well, and I love too, you know, again, We were talking earlier before we jumped on about kind of the like getting quiet, the getting quiet and the listening. These values, like what do we value? And of course, whether you're, uh, no, no matter what gender you are, right?

Like there's this idea of really kind of getting quiet and getting clear about what is it that I value? Allowing those values to align, then align with everything that comes from that place. To be in alignment with your values because the second we are out of alignment with those values, we're, we're kind of in a place of suffering.

We can. Yeah, yeah. 

Tanya: Yep. Exactly. And, and it's interesting, you know, so it's funny because there are some things that, that are values then, then there are also some things that are str that are strengths, right? And so I remember, I used to work at Charles Schwab was my first job out of college. So you know, well before the business and I had taken this test by Gallup, the strength finders.

and it was, uh, it, it, it, my, the number one strength that came up to was empathy. , which is something I valued, but I did not see it as a strength. Right. I was like, what the hell do I do with this ? Like this is my number one strength, you know?

Monica: And just to be clear, did you see it as a weakness before you saw it as a strength?

Tanya: I thought I saw it as useless. Oh, I thought was like just kind of like so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just like, you know, this is like a default thing. 

Monica: This is like a soft skill

Tanya: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's just, it's a soft skill. It's a default, sort of like regular human, you know? I was just like, what? And then it was later on that I would have people, some of my clients would actually pull me into meetings because of this ability to understand the real need versus the perceived need.

Wow. And other clients or to, you know what I mean? And so I was like, oh, this is valuable. Or, or when people, you know, if there was. Like, it's so funny cuz my, my consultations for example, are anytime I'm working with a client, it's like, I usually get an email, like, it's like a warm intro email. There's a 20 minute conversation and then I send them an estimate and people are like, How do you connect in 20 minutes with a prospect for some of these projects?

Monica: Yeah, 

Tanya: Like 20 minutes and then, and I'm just like, oh, you know, now I can see like, oh, I, I guess that is the strength. I guess that is a, 

Monica: Well, you're a revealer. It's like you're, you're like listening for like what's underneath, right? It's like what's the essence? What's the, what is the essence of what it is that they really want?

Tanya: Yeah. And so, and so that strength now for me is a major value in Yeah. The organization. And it is now also how I really own showing up is, is to say, I have an empathic approach. This is what I do. Yes. You know, like, and so, and that, which is very different than 10 years ago, where I would not even consider.

You know, a skill , like 

Monica: Right. Let alone lead with it. 

Tanya: Now it it's, it's turned into a value. Yeah, exactly. 

Monica: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And just because I know my listeners are gonna be curious, how would you describe what you do? 

Tanya: Oh, so I'm a consultant and people are like, well, what kind of consultant? Uh, typically it's idea to market strategy.

So somebody has an idea, they're not sure how to bring it into the world, and they come to. And a lot of times that means I work with them on digital foundation, so we build websites, right? So fancy way of saying we build websites. The way that I like to think about it is, And by the way, so Moushi and Co is a partner with Squarespace.

I dunno if you've heard of them. Okay. Yes. 

Monica: Website platform. Yeah. Oh yeah. Use it all the time. Love it. Yeah, 

Tanya: they're awesome. I love them. Um, and I, I use them a lot. Big partner with them and then type form and a couple other, no-code tools, but, so they feature me as, as an expert and they will funnel clients my way as well.

But people, you know, will wanna start a business. And I always push for a digital foundation first because it's only through the process. Building a website that you have to start thinking about who am I, who do I wanna help? How do I wanna show up? How do I want people to perceive me? What am I actually helping with?

And it's, it's almost like a forcing function. Yeah. So for a long time, the deliverable was a website, but it would be like all of this, you know, all of the, the work, like, uh, the meat of understanding why is really why I was. and then that's, you know, nowadays honestly I start to think of my business in ratios.

And so whereas five years ago it was maybe a hundred percent was designed and strategy. Now it's about, I would say 40%, uh, design in about 60% advisement, just pure advisement. And I'm contracted with six cities in the United States as an advisor for their small business community. Uh, just through, through a really cool program.

and I love that. I actually really, really like advisement. Yeah. It's a lot more fun than, than I . Yeah. Than I thought it would be, but it's, yeah, it's really cool, 

Monica: Right because it's, it's again, being able to kind of see that bigger vision Yep. And kind of coach from, or advise or consult from that place of, yeah, here's what's missing, here's what I see.

And oftentimes it's probably a whole lot bigger than what they see for themselves initially. Yeah, 

Tanya: I love breaking the way people think. Yes, I get a kick out of that. So there's also some workshops that I do for, uh, small and mid-size organizations, but probably the most impactful one that I ever did was for the City of Phoenix, uh, their deputy directors.

So you're talking a pretty, you know, it's a government organization, so pretty stale organization. Not a lot of entrepreneurial thinking happening, you know, and I'm coming in and doing design thinking and like all these ideal, uh, exercises and I'm helping them, uh, with it. Like I did, I did a workshop, I think it was called Failing Forward, like just getting them comfortable with like iteration.

Yes. And it was so fun because you see people who. Clearly just sort of like stuck in a place and I love to be the person that like just breaks that for them. 

Monica: Oh my gosh, okay. I love that so much because for me it comes into this huge barrier that I feel so many of us have around imagination and creation.

It's like there's one of those invisible fences that somehow it's either been, you know, like somehow failure became. Measurement stick versus mm-hmm. actually looking at all of these positive ways that we can fail fast and learn and iterate and Oh yeah. Really kind of, and, and like failure is such the wrong word too.

It's just so limiting. 

Tanya: It's just, it's funny cuz like that's how we talk about it, but it's not really that, it's really. Experience. You know, I had a, 

Monica: and experimenting literally yesterday and experimenting and can we just experiment and being okay with that and explore and, and see , right? Like, can we just do that?

It's just amazing to me. And then, and people have so much fun. It's like then they start lighting up again. It's like, like this is actually your birthright. Yeah. Yeah, like there's, there's something that comes in, into my chest as I even say that cuz it's like, it's emotional for me, like to con, to help connect people back to their birthright.

Tanya: I love that you call it that. I think that's, that's really appropriate and people are so hesitant to do that. Right. Especially as, and I think this is actually a very western thing where we have this idea and. . This was inspired by Allen Watts, which he has a book, it's just a lecture series called One of My Favorites.

Fantastic. Yeah. But this, I think it really comes from this western world view where you, if you're not the best at something, you don't do it. So it's like you start to see this in high school. A lot of times, like if someone doesn't start to excel at the. If they don't go to college and play that sport or play that instrument or whatever, they just don't play it again.

Yeah. They're like, what's the point? Either, what's the point? Yeah. But there's a lot of other societies that are like, well, actually playing it is the point , right? The joy from playing it is the point. And so what I find here, you know, in the we in the Western world is that we're very hesitant to explore and experiment because we think if we can't be the best at this, if we, if we don't just nail this thing, there is just no.

Why, why would we even do it? It's too scary. 

Monica: It's too scary. And, you know, , I mean, there's so many places I could go right now. Right

Tanya: I know.

Monica: Because I know . Because you know, this also is like, there's this big facade that like, we better start failing soon or else we're, we're in a lot of trouble. Meaning in terms of just staying.

flexible and resilient, and these are all of the ability to adapt values. Adaptability agents like just giving ourselves permission to. Follow an a, a hunch follow our intuition again. Yeah. These are all feminine values. They are, yeah. Starting to actually recognize that the logic and the structure is distorted if it doesn't have also a feminine lens.

Tanya: Yeah. Yep. Definitely. And there, there's also this component, I would say, where we believe that we can be made right? So we, that we craft ourselves. . One of the biggest things that I took from that, uh, book, that lecture series you're in, was the story about how it's not unusual for a Western child to ask their parents, how was I made?

Mm-hmm. Right. Very regular question. Mm-hmm. , but Alan Watts goes on to say that, like, that would, that question would never come up in an eastern household. It would never come up. That que the question instead for those children, How did I grow? 

Monica: Mm, how did I grow? 

Tanya: Which is a whole different way of thinking about yourself, right?

One is like you're coming into your own, and another one is you are crafting your own. And so, so there's like, you know, this famous line that he says it's not, how does he say this? It's not unusual that Jesus is a carpenter, and I just thought that was so good. . 

Monica: That's so good. He has so many of those where you're just like, huh, right?

Like, yep. Yeah. Just zinger, you know, where you're just like, ah, good. 

Tanya: Yeah. But I think a lot of women really understand. and when they're, when they embrace it, they understand and honor the fact that they grow into themselves. 

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Tanya: it's not just a forging, even though I know it sometimes feels that way. I think we talked earlier when it comes to that listening.

That's what that is. It is a very internal thing happening. It is nothing coming from the outside in. It is a very internal from the source guiding me. 

Monica: Well, and I think that is some of what's missing is the space. You know, it's like there's a reason, I think it was Virginia Wolf wrote a, a room of her own , right?

Tanya: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. 

Monica: As women, we need a room of our own. We need a space. to stop the world so that we can go in and be with ourselves. That is the deep listening, that is the spaciousness that we need to create and we can't really create if we're like constantly out here exhausted and seeking. Yeah. Right.

It's like to just be still and to kind of go in and to trust that there will. something to hear and however, you know, and when I say that, I don't necessarily mean with your ears, . Yeah, exactly. You know, like Exactly. It's, it gets to be your way and it, and when you go into that world, it is your world. And there's a way that, uh, so many women will be like, yeah, but I didn't, you know, but.

It wasn't what I thought it was gonna be, or it didn't happen the way I thought it would, or you, there's so much expectation. It's like, okay, but 

Tanya: where's that expectation? Yeah. Where it's like, no, no, just allow it, , wait. 

Monica: Just get in there. And however it comes up for you is exactly what's supposed to be there in that moment.

But it's that practice of creating that space and getting related. to that silence. You know, there's an expression, the nass, I'm, I'm really diving deeply into the nass, which is, the Gnostic means the knowing or to know, right. It's, it's like, hmm, I haven't heard that word. Yeah. So the nass, I actually did a recent episode with Miguel Connor, and there was this whole sect and actually, A lot of people call it a religion, but it was more a way of being, and it was this whole idea of like the no.

And they have this whole cosmology of the goddess Sophia, who is of course, wisdom and wisdom. You know, Sophia's world is the world of darkness and silence, and that's, that's that clue to go in and down. It doesn't mean darkness like evil darkness, right? It means. Quiet. It means quiet. It means the void.

Yeah. It's like go into the void cuz that's the creation place. , right? Yep. So definitely the more we can create that room of our own within ourselves to just be quiet, right? It's like, yeah, to just also suspend our need to know what it needs to be like in order to know. 

Tanya: That's huge. Which requires really, it requires like a deep faith.

I don't even know what else to call it. It's like there is a deep. And a faith in in ourselves that feels very uncomfortable. Oh my, oh my gosh. It's really hard. It is. It's a, it's like a little bit of a battle where you're like, I have to trust them. 

Monica: Yeah. Were your, I love your face even. You're like, oh, I have to trust this, you know?

Tanya: Yeah. It's like, oh God. Yeah. You know, , because, but that's the, that's the right feeling. You, you will have that feeling until you don't, until you distrust it. Yeah. Well, 

Monica: and, and what I wanna offer for myself, cuz I'm catching myself in this moment, so I'm just gonna offer it for all of us, is I get to trust it.

Oh, I, I get to trust this. , yes. Like the energy completely shifts. Like I have to, 

Tanya: I love that. 

Monica: Yeah. I get to trust this. I get to trust this process. This is like really beautiful. 

Tanya: I love that. That reminds you, Monica. So the, the a, a big part of the, um, of love is the business plan is something called the Gecko model, which is just an acronym.

So it's gratitude, empathy, care, kindness, and optimistic. And that that first part, the gratitude. Is that sort of mentality of I get to do this work. Yeah. And how that changes so much of your interactions with people is I get, you know, I get to do this service for you. Yeah. I get to record this. It's a very different approach than like, I have to Yes.

You know? Yes. I love that you said that.

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Well, and I love, I, you know, and of course now I totally love what you just brought into the space because in the Gecko model, right, which is such a great acronym for, you know, when I look at, and I want you to repeat it again for us because like what I just heard in that is such. anchoring, remembering map.

Yep. To what? To how to presence more of the feminine in our work lives. 

Tanya: Yep, definitely. 

Monica: Definitely in the j o b , right? 

Tanya: Yeah. It's a real, it's funny cuz people are like, it's their, their values and people are like, well how do you incorporate this actually? Right. How do you inc. These values. So Gecko again stands for gratitude, empathy, care, kindness and optimism.

And so gratitude is that basic of like, okay, I get to do this work. Empathy is, to me, I, I have kind a different approach on empathy. I, I wrote an article at this once called How to Build Empathy. Cause I, because something that, it's something especially a lot of women do is we undervalue our own strengths.

We overvalue the strengths of. So, you know, we, we tend to think that just because we know something, we feel something that everybody will, might, you know, might feel this and it's not that important or it's not special cause but, uh, it is really special. So anyway, I wrote this article called How to Build Empathy.

And one of the most basic sort of fundamental ways, I think to build empathy is to recognize something, which is that we're all here. Like if nothing else helps you connect with people. If, if you can remember that we're all here at the same time on Earth and how that's not an insignificant thing, that's not insignificant at all.

This is extraordinarily special to be here at the same time, and that alone to me says I can learn from you because we're here together. I can share with you because we're here. You know, and I'm, I mean, I'm a big believer that even people who have passed on are, are around and, and there's much around us that influence us.

But that alone, I think is a, the basis of empathy for me is I don't think it's insignificant that we're both here at the same time. And so acting that way, you know? 

Monica: Yeah. I, I just wanna like sit with this for a minute. Yeah. I don't think it's insignificant. That we're here together. That's what I heard you say.

Yeah. I mean it's really like, it's so profound and it's so simple. It's so simple 

Tanya: and and people forget. People forget it. They pretend like it's not important, but it, 

Monica: But it is, it is so important. 

Tanya: And recognize recognizing that as something that's important. I think the way that you treat people, it becomes very, It's not so different, you know, the, um, uh, like our, our lives are not so different now when you think about it this way where it's where you're thinking, you know, actually, I'm much more connected to you than I thought.

And if in no other way it's the fact that we're both here on earth at the same time and that's not something that seeze at, you know? 

Monica: Yeah. Well, and what's coming up for me in this moment is like, why do you think. That because I see something else at play here that happens a lot. It is like, and maybe it goes back to kind of this whole idea of like, we're starving actually be seen and to be witnessed, but there's this tendency to want to teach someone something versus to think they have something to teach us.

Tanya: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . 

Monica: And it's like, and, and so this happens. It's a clash. Yeah. Right. Versus this. Yes. Yep. Absolutely. And talk about masculine and feminine in the dance, right? Like you need two willing partners to be able to kind of dance, right? To be able to dance. And yet we go in and we're like, it's got be this way, this way, this way.

And so like we end up, if we're both coming at it thinking that we know. 

Tanya: Then we both then. Then you miss it, then you miss the connection. Right? You, yeah. 

Monica: You miss the connection. You miss the gecko. Yep. Yep. Totally like that actually. Like, because all of these things, right? Like I think about forgetting and I think about remembering, and I think about like what is in the middle is actually presence.

Tanya: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I like to, I love the word remembering because of the, the real meaning of that word. It's like remembering. All part of the same 

Monica: Yes. But like, but that, but that Gecko is such a great presence, sir. Yeah. Because like if I'm here in this moment and I'm in the moment of gecko, I'm remembering as I'm meeting with somebody.

Right. I'm remembering. 

Tanya: Exactly. It's, it's definitely an alignment tool. It's really what it is. It's an alignment tool. 

Monica: It's an alignment tool. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me how you practice Gecko. . Yeah. Tell me how you practice in your personal life. Tell me how you practice with others. Like, tell me more. 

Tanya: Yeah, so, so the third part of Gecko is a gratitude, empathy, then care, right?

Care is like this, right in the middle. Care is really interesting to me. And this actually came up because, uh, of Seth and what definitely one of my more influential mentors, but he had this question once that I. and I still love, and it is, it was basically the opposite of everything he would ever teach you in business school, , uh, and normally in business you think, what's the least I can do for this dollar?

And he flips that on its head and he says, what's the most you can do? Mm-hmm. , how do you take this really generous approach to what is the most you could possibly do? and it is a very different, it was a, it was a very different way to think about business that I love. And to me that sort of fell into this, uh, understanding that care is a competitive advantage.

Mm-hmm. , when people hire you, if they're hiring me for a website, for example, they're not just hiring me to like build a website. They're hiring me to give a damn about building this website for them. . 

Monica: I mean, that is what they're hiring. Never true words were spoken. You know, I mean, what I find often is, I want somebody to care.

Yeah. Right. Like I want somebody to care about what I'm trying to do out in the world. Like I don't just need you to like consult. I need you to care. Exactly. I don't just need you to build it. I need you to care. I need you to be impacted. 

Tanya: Yeah. And to me, that shows up in, in the practical ways that shows up is really.

you know, anticipating needs, anticipating what's actually gonna make someone's life easier. You know, if you build something a certain way, will it make it harder or easier for them? You know, are there things to think about that they're not thinking about? And going that, so it's, it's very emotionally laborious.

It's work. You're thinking for someone else in this way, you're asking questions to really uncover what is the real need versus the perceived need. What are they actually looking for that maybe they don't even know that they're looking for? Because they just haven't gotten there yet. And the least you can do is ask those questions, you know?

And so that, to me, that kind of care that's, that shows up in the business world. And what ends up happening is people, That's really good questions. I didn't think about that. Mm-hmm. , and, you know, and then that, that really builds trust. It builds trust in a very real way because they can see that that's, that is what they're getting.

And the reality is, and this is a reason I've been to client services for almost nine years now, and um, and I'm doing a lot more creator things now. So I have, like my consultancy, I'm kind of moving into this creator space as well. But in the consulting world and in client services in general, That's hard to do a lot of the time.

So I don't have, it's not a volume game. It's very much like, who am I helping, not how many people. And that to me is a really big, is a really big thing. Who over how many? I say that 

Monica: all the time. Well, and, and that just brings me to. Audience building and engagement. Right? Because a lot of people like that's kind of their goal is the more and more, more that somehow it's the quantity versus the quality of the relationship and the engagement.

And you know, when I'm working with clients, oftentimes like that seems to be the focus until you ask the deeper question. Yeah. Which gets into this area of like care and what do they care about really? 

Tanya: Yeah. And who do you wanna help?

Monica: Is it really then the quantity or is it the quality? 

Tanya: Yeah. And it's rarely Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. It was funny cause I didn't even realize this until I was reading up on, on the podcast and you know, you had, you have really good questions in that questionnaire that you sent out, and one of the things I realized, God, so many of my clients are actually these really amazing women that I know.

And I remember this early when I started my business where I remember thinking, I want to help blow these women up. Yes. I want to give. Right? And, and it was like I was very intentional about who do I actually want to help. Yes. And then there was, it just so happened that like in the last few years it's been, you know, numerous women that have come.

That I'm like, oh, this is so cool. Like this is exactly who I wanna help. . Yeah. Oh, I, so these are people that I wanna help, but, but I think people forget about that, that you actually do have the power to make that kind of decision. And I know in the beginning it's really, you know, really practical of like, oh, I just say yes to everything and whoever will hire me and whatever.

But. , if you could slowly sort of inch towards who, who do I want to help? Really? Mm-hmm. . '

Monica: Mm-hmm.

Tanya: then care starts to become really embedded in your business. It becomes embedded in your client choices. Comes embedded in the work that you want to do more of. Yeah. 

Monica: And this underneath, this is the scarcity.

Tanya: Mm-hmm. , definitely 

Monica: the scarcity thinking that has us live in the false belief that we need to take everything that comes our way, even when it's not aligned. 

Tanya: Yeah.

Monica: And that that is like, I think as more and more women get into this, Realm of entrepreneurial thinking, like that's a common mistake. 

Tanya: Yeah.

Monica: That a lot of us make.

And then that's when it becomes a j o b. That's when it becomes this very kind of constricted way of. Not being in love with our clients or our work. It's like, but we chose it . You know, like we don't . Yeah. We, we don't kind of remember that. Like we actually had a choice at one point point. We chose it.

Yeah. And then we chose it. 

Tanya: We said yes. Yeah, exactly. You know, and it's like, why did I do that? Right. And I get it right, because, you know, from a practicality standpoint, sure. There aren't those times where you absolutely do that. But you have to know what those moments are for, and those moments are for experimenting, learning on the job.

Right. , it's, it's so that you can better help who you wanna help. Yes, yes. Yeah, 

Monica: exactly. Right. But, but it's like, I love, and, and so we'll go back to how did I grow? How did I grow from that client? What did that client teach me? 

Tanya: And going in there with that intention, right? Yeah. With that like, okay. Because I think it, especially consultants, I think I just really love to learn and so for the longest time it was like, , you know, who's willing to gimme the opportunity Yeah.

To learn with them and to share what I know, but I'm also experimenting. It's a lot of the job. 

Monica: Yeah. And sometimes I love to learn like, okay, I'm not gonna do that again. 

Tanya: Yeah. . Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. But all of it is really in this effort of eventually being able to help who you wanna help and, and getting better and better at that.

Mm-hmm. , that's really what it's, it's all the sort of experimentation of getting better and better to, to actually do the kind of work that you want to. . And I think a lot of people think that it has to be a sort of quick decision. I don't think it's like that. I think it's very incremental and then you get to position yourself in such a way where you're now really capable of helping those people or helping them more and more.

But, but even so, I think people miss all the time that question of who do I actually wanna help? Yeah. Like they don't think about that. They're think, they think of it from, like you said, this really scar, you know, scarcity mindset. I just need clients like, well, hold on. Yeah. Who do you wanna help . That's a, that will sort of help direct you.

It's almost like a filtering question. 

Monica: Yes, absolutely. It absolutely is. Okay, so kindness and optimism. 

Tanya: Yeah, so kindness is really interesting. Kindness is so fun because it's, it is the unexpected thing that you do for someone. That you pur, that you intentionally build it. Yeah. Okay. So 

Monica: I, so it's premeditated kindness.

Tanya: I used to own a coffee shop and actually it's like premeditated kindness. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. It's not the random act of kindness, even though it feels, you know, uh, you might feel like it on the other end, but no, it's intentional. You're intentionally building it in. Um, and, but then this all, so there's that, there's that aspect of it.

There's also this aspect of it. And actually my friend Saha says this, and, and I really appreciate him for that. Uh, but he says, uh, the, the, it's very kind to approach someone with compassion who might not know what you know. Right. And so kindness is also this sort of explaining things that maybe you take for granted.

Or maybe someone's afraid to ask, like, or say that they don't know something. It's like the way that you approach them. It has a, there's a, there's a kind of kindness 

and compassion underneath. 

Monica: Yeah. 

Tanya: And people really appreciate that, you know? So even, even with you using, was it, uh, was it Gnostic Yes. Example, right?

Like your, like your approach to explaining that it was so kind. Right. And so it wasn't like a, I expect you to. I was like, this is what it is. 

Yeah.

And I was like, oh. And like, right. I could take it in. I could take it in without the shame of not Oh, yeah. Yeah. I could actually hear it. And so, to me, especially in the consulting world, that's, that's really what that's about.

Monica: Mm-hmm. 

Tanya: and then optimism. It's definitely one of my favorites. I, I, I love optimism because you can't. Like I love the spec. You cannot be an inventor of any sort without optimism. Yeah. And I want people to really think about that. You cannot create better, right? You cannot create at all really without having some kind of optimism.

So optimism is an inventor's best friend. And for me in the client services side of things, it's really, uh, not just about myself, but letting others see that we can either overcome this thing, we can accomplish, you know, this thing we can create together. Uh, that we can, that it's possible. And I, I'm a big believer that if you carry that, honestly right, not naively, you don't have to say, oh, this is gonna be easy, but that we can do hard things.

Right. Very glennon uh, Glennon. Doy on this. Yeah, we can do hard. I think is a really, uh, you want that person on your team, right? You want them to help you. 

Monica: You absolutely do. 

Tanya: And so, and I, so I think that's a really, that's a really big value and, and all of these things. Again, with the Gecko model, it's really, it's so funny cuz they're, it's really, they really do build a values aligned business, but together it's almost the together, the way, the way that they work together is that it really does.

As this competitive advantage because you are anchoring in all of these things that actually mean something in the human realm from person to person. 

Monica: Yeah. So I have a couple of people I partner with and one of my cherished partners says Love is in the details. Mm-hmm. , and these feel like very important details.

Yep. And I also want a presence. My listeners always hear me talk about Lynn Twist because she's somebody I work with on a pretty much day-to-day basis. And. I don't know if you've heard of her work. She wrote The Soul of Money and she wrote Living A Committed Life and she's Oh, great titles, both of those.

Yeah. She's a total visionary and you, you would love her work, but what she talks about is actually very similar. She just has a different term for it. She calls it grounded optimism and she calls herself a possible list. 

Tanya: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I dig that. I like that. 

Monica: Well, and what I've learned from her, The most is that she sees an opportunity in every challenge where other people, you know, it's like, and that's this muscle of resilience that I see her exercise.

It's not that I don't see her being human. It's not that I don't see her thrown off her game every now and again, but it's like I can always count on her to see. A possibility in it that she couldn't maybe see before, like when she was initially kind of responding to it. And so, you know, she'll always say, and I'm sure you've, you would share this sentiment that it's happening for us versus happening to us.

Oh yeah. Yeah. And the thing that I even love about saying, like, I can count on her for that, is like, I love, I love knowing that. Like I can count on that about me too. , right? Like I can count on that about me. Like I will always, like, it might take me a while , right? Like I may have to like be in the victim for a minute or two or five or 10, or you know, like, yeah.

Or weeks or months, you know, like, let's be real. There are some things that happen and I cannot see the opportunity or the possibility yet, but I think, you know, like on a day-to-day, basis. Like I also think of Brene Brene's work, right? And it's like, yep, absolutely. Is it gonna take you out of the game?

Tanya: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And, and it's funny because that the reality, like, so Lynn's optimism, that's the reality. We just miss it because we're stuck in Yeah. You know, a, a little hole of self-pity for a while. Yes. But that is the reality. She's being a. Which I think is so funny to think about because people are like, oh yeah, you're being naive, or you being, it's 

Monica: like, no, no.

Right, right. Actually, , and there's some grit here. Actually, there's some grit here. It's this place where it does all get to belong. Yeah, of course, right? That it's gritty. I don't like it, but here's what I see. Here's the opportunity. 

Tanya: and, and there's an aspect of the, it's the, and that you were talking about, it is the, and yes, this sucks and we can do it.

Monica: Yes. Yes. Is that, and it's not, it's not just putting lipstick on a pig, right. It's like it actually No. It's reality. Yes. I mean, there's things that just happen. I mean, let's, let's look at Covid for example, right? And, and people could either, and again, like all, all empathy here, you can floppy for anybody that you know really was forced, right?

But then there were other people that really like took on the challenge and a lot of people that might have considered their business if they folded or closed their doors, but those people grew from it. They see how they would innovate in a way and come back to business and not do it the same way. We can't see everything.

Tanya: I have never ever. I have never, ever met any business owner, any speaker, anybody who has not in some way or another, folded Right. Folded what they're doing. So when people, like, I always tell people like, you're not, if you think you're gonna get it right the first time, you've, you are not. Yeah. It's just not gonna happen.

If you think you're gonna have, you're gonna be a speaker and you're never gonna bomb. That is literally never gonna, there isn't a speaker on. Who has never bombed. 

Monica: It's so true. It's so true, right? , 

Tanya: they're so good luck. And so knowing that you can say, you know, when these companies that ditch fold or you know, a speaker that does mess up or something, to me now that has become, and I, I mean, I will tell you honestly, I was someone that I would fall for weeks into those, you know, those things of self-pity.

Now it's one of those things where it's like, oh, I guess that was my screw up. It's, it's the knock on the bell. Like, that was my screw up. I knew I was gonna have them. 

Monica: Yeah. Well, it's, and in my world I say say yes to the mass. Right? Because yeah, , it's also kind of in those messy places where we come to Enlightenments, it's, I often say it's like why the lotus is the symbol of enlightenment, right?

It grows in the mud, it grows in the deep dark, but it's, it's like even those. Messy mistakes that we make. It's an opportunity to clean up the mess and to, you know, . There's something to be learned there. There's something to be learned there. There is something there to be. Yeah, you're right. It's like when our messy emotions, because that's the other thing that we don't think belongs in business and it absolutely does.

You know, like we need to. Mm-hmm. , like our emotions teach us something. They have something to teach us and so, , we're not, you know, we can't be up here in our heads all the time, intellectualizing everything. We're living, breathing, feeling human beings. And this is where, you know, kind of this marrying of the head and the heart.

And this is, you know, where I really wanna invite in our last, you know, 10 minutes here to start getting into a conversation about that. Because what I'm really hearing is, Love is the business model, and in order for love to thrive, it needs structure. Right. It needs the masculine. And so I wanna bring in this conversation of like the masculine structures that you lean into in order to bring more love to bring the gecko.

Like what do you use in ways that support you? And I know I'm gonna brag on your newsletter for a minute cuz you know, like you actually. That is a model of Gecko right there, your newsletter. Because in it you're always providing those who subscribe with little tips. You're so generous in those newsletters.

So I even look at the newsletter as a structure. 

Tanya: Yeah. I need the structure. Yeah, I need the structure. It's daily, it's automated. Um, the, so there's two parts to the, to the new. One, uh, if people go to Moushi.co up at the bottom, that the little sign up there, that's for the weekly letter. And then if you go to daily inspire.co, that's the, uh, that's daily.

So every weekday plus the weekend edition. So yes, with, with Daily Inspire and, and I use this all in, in a lot of ways in business, is the structure of this daily newsletter was really interesting because I have to. So besides like the automation, for example, like one thing that I'd have to, I had to pay attention to is how long is this thing gonna be?

And who, who can I like, really be in this, uh, in delivering this? So one of the things that stood out to me is, and this is something that I'm borrowing from a guy whose newsletter I get, a named Josh Specter who had, he was like with the first people to have these really short, new. . I was like, God, I did not ever think I could do that.

Right. I did not think that like anybody would allow that. 

Monica: You didn't think brevity was your jam? 

Tanya: I didn't think. Well, it's funny cause I know it is right. But I'm like, I don't know. People won't appreciate that if I read a newsletter. It has to be long. It has to be, you know, so it has to be extremely, uh, deep.

It has to be. It's like actually no. Wow. No. You could just give people a little bit of encouragement every single day. And then on the weekend, if you wanna share a little bit behind the business, you do. You know, and, but it's funny cuz what I, what I really feel like I take from the masculine side of things is the confidence.

Yes. Say more The confidence of love. Right. , the confidence that some of these guys put out, the kinda business they put out, the kinda content they put out where I'm like, my God, I would've overthought the hell outta that . 

Monica: Oh. So yes. This is just so perfect. Yes. I would've overthought the hell out of that.

Yeah. Right. 

Tanya: Yeah. Yep. Yep. You know, if I had the confidence of a white man in tech , that's my goal. 

Monica: I always say a mediocre white man in tech, right? Like, or just a mediocre white man. If I had the confidence, right, . 

Tanya: Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, it's so funny. But really I think that's the thing that I, I've taken away the most from, uh, from the maclin side of things, is like there's confidence that they, you know, things don't have to be perfect and you can still ship them.

And that's been really empowering. So that's been a big thing. Another really big thing is the confidence, and this, I hope so many women adapt because this has been, uh, hugely impactful for me, which is the confidence that you can learn anything. Oh, yes, you can learn your way in or out of absolutely everything.

Everything. And so the yes, it doesn't matter what it's, and so that alone is extremely empowering, uh, because you don't let things, you know, when you do get tripped up, you just keep. You just keep going. 

Monica: Yeah. Like, and I'm a big, like unlearner actually, I, I just. Presence that for a minute, because I call it the unbecoming.

I love that. Yeah. Because I, I, I, I am someone who is, has been super conditioned mm-hmm. to be a certain way and to think a certain way and to look a certain way, like my whole life. So there's actually like this rebellious and unlearning that I just frigging love. Right. , like, I'm just like, I am unlearning that.

Tanya: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Untamed by Glennon Doyle. Have you read that? 

Monica: Yes. Oh yeah. I mean, phenomenal. Phenomenal, I mean, phenomenal. And of course I was like going to see her before she was even like a thing. Oh, wow. Because I was just so, yeah, I can't remember where I 

Tanya: first, yeah. When you say unlearning, that's what I.

That's what I think of. 

Monica: Yeah, yeah. Where I first came across her, her stuff, but it was, it was like, it just, oh, I think it was her, her initial literal email, remember how she was blogging and she sent out a blog, or she answered, I think it was even on a Facebook post where she answered. a bunch of questions super vulnerably and everybody was just sharing it.

Oh, and starting to kind of like be like, oh yeah, like I'm doing that too. It was like she was like the voice of full permission and saying this, oh wow, that's awesome that everybody was thinking, but nobody wanted to say. It was like she began to really model that. And that's what the other thing I think we do for each other as women is because.

We are so connected because we are so intuitive, because we are designed to pick up on all of these things. I think that one of the beautiful things that happens when we see another woman, Dare . You know, like, yeah. It's like, I call it the dare, the way 

Tanya: that that opens the door. 

Monica: Yeah. And it's like, oh my gosh.

Like I, I want some of that. Like I, I want that in my life, right? It's like we get this like, oh, like me too. Mm-hmm. , right? like, but in this really positive way. And I think, you know, like we have a tendency now to really. as things start shifting, or I say as the world starts kind of turning right side up instead of condemning or criticizing a woman who is, comes into a room full of herself.

I'm like, oh, hell yes. Like it's a turn on now. Oh, yes. Yeah, no, like I'm 

Tanya: like, yeah, absolutely. It's extremely attractive. It's really at. 

Monica: It's extremely attractive and even just changing that narrative because there's admiration there instead of jealousy. Oh, like I admire 

Tanya: that. And it requi It's funny cuz it requires women to, to really to, to admire that because you, we've all been there where there's some women who have the thought of like, who does this girl think she is?

Yeah. Right. Yes. But if you are the woman that's like, look at her. Go. Then it. Oh, right. Other them would kinda perk up and they're like, oh, I guess you might . You know, . And it kinda opens the door for them. So it's funny how much of this is actually really social conditioning. 

Monica: It all is. I will say it, it's all social conditioning and so, yeah.

You know, and, and here we are back, you know, in love, right? How long is when we are willing to kind of. Be in love, everything else kind of falls away. 

Tanya: Yeah. And, and, and what that means to approach things with love is, uh, to me is, is the biggest thing. It's what that actually means, because people are like, you love your clients, you love your partners, you love, it's like, actually, yeah, 

Monica: yeah.

I really do. 

Tanya: Yeah. Because businesses are made up of people, , you know, they're not these faceless things. Businesses are made up of people and people need. And it's really that straightforward, you know, and I want, I want more people to, to be able to see that. 

Monica: Well, I just, oh, yay. Let's end on that note because it's so beautiful.

Yeah. And I want you to, I know we just have a few more minutes and then we gotta go. But I want you to invite our listeners to just go where you want 'em to go, to check out your work or sign up for your newsletter or whatever it is that you're up to, that you want them to know about. Yeah. I would 

Tanya: love for, for people to sign up for the newsletter.

It's daily Inspire dot. A lot of really cool things are coming from that. So there's the, the weekday, really short newsletter that comes up, and then at the weekends I'm super vulnerable about my business. I share what I'm doing, how much I'm making, what, you know, it depends on, on the week, uh, what I'm working on, thinking about at the moment.

So people really, really, uh, like that. So I, I definitely invite. Your listeners to, to join me 

Monica: there? Yes, and absolutely. I just wanna also give a plug, like one of her recent newsletters. I, I can't remember if it was on the Daily Inspire, but I think it actually was the newsletter that was telling, telling your followers how you make passive income and where you make it, right?

Like, so yeah, the, these. Are gems mm-hmm. , um, for women and men who are listening who want to bring more love to their business and continue to practice the gecko method. 

Tanya: Yeah. Yeah. More we talk about it, the, the better. 

Monica: You know, really. That's right. So thank you so much, Tanya. It's been an absolute honor to have you here today, and I've just loved everything that you've shared with us.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, 

Tanya: honor to. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, honestly, and I'm really glad to that we gotta do this, 

Monica: so I appreciate it. Absolutely, and I'll put all of Tanya's links in the show notes and until next time, more to be revealed.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.