192_Oren Jay Sofer - Your Heart Was Made for This
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Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a Revelation Project and what gets revealed, gets healed. Hello, dear listener. Welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast.

Monica: Today I'm with my beautiful guest Oren J. Sofer and Oren teaches meditation and communication internationally. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a certified teacher of non violent communication. He's also a somatic experiencing practitioner for the healing of trauma.

Monica: He's the author of several beloved books, including the bestseller, say what you mean, a mindful approach to nonviolent communication. And today we're here to talk about his latest book. Your heart was made for this contemplative practices to meet a world in crisis with courage, integrity, and love, and his teaching has reached people around the world through his online communication courses and guided meditations.

Monica: And Oren, I love that we're having this conversation today because as you and I mentioned, it always feels a little bit like we're right on the brink of chaos, but especially right now with everything that's going on, I really just want to acknowledge your beautiful book and your beautiful work and welcome you to the show.

Monica: Thank you for being here. 

Oren: Thanks, Monica. I'm happy to be here and really looking forward to this conversation. 

Monica: Me too. Well first, just a quick check in. How are you about what's going on in the world at the moment? 

Oren: Thanks, Monica. Yeah, my heart feels really tender. Yeah. Uh, it's hard. It's a hard time, I think, to be on the planet and to be conscious.

Oren: There's a lot of pain and a lot of uncertainty. And Yeah, those of us who have the blessing of being able to keep our hearts open sometimes think, feel it. So, yeah, I'm practicing a lot of the things that are in this book in terms of self care, nourishment, but also, yeah, courage and aspiration, trying to keep my, uh, my vision clear on what's important to me and how to move through difficult times.

Monica: I love that you said the blessing of keeping our hearts open because I'll tell you recently I had an interaction with my daughter who was going through a recent heartbreak and she said, mom, how do people do it? You know, how do people do it? And I said, some don't, you know, a lot of people don't. They say love's not for me.

Monica: They shut their heart down. Yeah. And so. It's this really tender, gritty truth about keeping our heart open, you know, it's that place where we are blessed enough to feel it all and yeah, and it does occur as a blessing over time, the more you practice. Being with all of the ways it can transform you. 

Oren: Yeah. Someone once said it, it hurts to go through life with your heart open, but not as much as it hurts to go through life with your heart closed. 

Monica: I love that. I do. So as I told you, when we first jumped on today, your first book, say what you mean, is actually a beloved book to many of my friends. And so of course I've told them to get it for me for Christmas and.

Monica: That specific book takes a deep dive into some of the great tools for communication and your new book, Your Heart Was Made For This, is broader. That's right. I've loved reading it and it covers some really incredible topics such as courage. Wonder, joy, forgiveness, patience, something that I've been working on for a long time now.

Monica: And I want to give my listener a deeper understanding of what inspired you to write this book because you have so many tender and vulnerable stories in your book that I think they'd relate to. So can you give me a little bit of background? 

Oren: Yeah. Hmm. I think one way of talking about it that actually connects to my first book is that One of the central questions of my life has been this question of how, like, how do we live away, live in a way that is consistent with our dreams and what we value and how do we contribute, um, our gifts to the world in a way that.

Oren: It feels nourishing and really, uh, makes a difference. And I think that when we slow down and look, most of us have a sense of what we want in life. Most of us can say, you know, I want to be really happy and know what that means. I want to live in a world where. Everybody has what they need and where the systems that are designed to support us actually do that without harming one another or the planet.

Oren: So how, how do we do that? And my first book was looking at how we do that in terms of our communication, which is a central part. Peace, right? Of, of how to communicate, how to build relationships, how to be effective. So this book looks at how do we do that in a much broader sense? What are the tools that we need to realize our dreams, our aspirations to contribute meaningfully in the world and to.

Oren: To be in integrity with the realities that we're living through in the early part of this century. How do we not just avoid and deny and turn away, but actually turn towards what's happening and face the truth and respond in a way that helps. So how? That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it and sort of a more personal and intimate way.

Oren: I started writing the book in 2020 when so much was changing. And so many of us were kind of felt that the ground shifting and falling away underneath us in many ways and writing about inner resources was one way I could contribute. As a meditation teacher, and about a year later, my wife and I got pregnant, and that took the writing into a different domain, and as I started looking ahead to my son's life and thinking about the future generation, and so the other question that was burning in me as I wrote the book was, what's the relevance of spirituality, self care, our inner life to these verychildren?

Oren: she Imposing real world crises that are unfolding and how can what I teach and practice actually be a support for engaging. So that was the other purpose in writing the book and what really drew me into it. 

Monica: I love that. I also really resonated with one of the stories that you told in the beginning of the book about Hmm.

Monica: You know, coming to this work from, I think it was like a place of how do I get out of this, right? I think it was something to that measure that there was, you know, I think that it's true for so many of us that our way to this question of like, how the hell do I get out of this feeling? This suffering is, is, is through suffering, like it's through getting to this point.

Monica: Very similar to, you know, our card, the fault line that we got where there's a big fat crack that happens in the veneer of our lives and we start to question everything and that fault line kind of creates these additional questions that all come off of that. Fractured place, but the essential kind of nature of the, of the fracture, you know, it, it, it feels like an invitation, like a portal to go in, right, right.

Monica: To a place where we, and it's funny cause we're like, how do I get out of this? But it's like, it's that paradoxical, like, right. Well then go in. Right. 

Oren: Yeah. Yeah. I think the story you're referring to is just. The realization I had, I think it was my freshman year in college, that, that I'd been running away from my feelings for a long time and avoiding something.

Oren: And so the sense was, how do I stop running? Like, how do I actually come back into myself and feel more whole? So there, there wasn't actually even an awareness of if we're going to use that metaphor of the crack or the fault line, it was more just all of a sudden, this kind of. I felt the tremor inside of the fault line, but I didn't know it was there.

Oren: All I knew was I'd been running away from it. And that that was not sustainable anymore. And that I wanted to actually turn towards it and understand what, what had happened to me and what is, what is a better way to live. And so that started a process, um, with meditation being a very key component of it, of.

Oren: Looking at some of the traumas of my early childhood and the things that occurred in my family and starting to unearth some of the really scary, painful feelings that were there. So I didn't have to keep running. 

Monica: Yeah. And you define, you're calling it meditation, but you also talk about this through your book as a contemplative practice.

Monica: Yeah. And so how do you define that? Cause I think it's important. It's something I actually have. And I think you and I spoke about this when we did a preliminary call where I really have enjoyed looking at the distinction between meditation, concentration and contemplation. Because for me, as I get better at meditating, raising my hand, like, you know, it's a constant practice, there's been this way that.

Monica: I'm able to settle into a more meditative state through a contemplative practice, which has to me more movement, but it's also very intentional. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. 

Oren: Yeah, thanks. So contemplative practice is much broader. It's an umbrella term meditation is one kind of contemplative contemplative practice, just just as running as one kind of exercise.

Oren: And so we all recognize the value of exercise, but we don't all like to run. We're not all built to run. It's not good for some of our bodies, but exercise and movement is healthy for all of us in the same way. Meditation doesn't speak to everyone. And even for those of us who enjoy meditating or do it, there's some times where it's not the right medicine.

Oren: It's like, that's not what's needed right now. But contemplative practice, in a similar way, is healthy for all of us. It's a way of attending to our inner life. It's a kind of mental and emotional hygiene. So I define contemplative practice as anything that supports a reflective awareness, and that connects us with questions of meaning.

Oren: purpose and perspective. So how do we strengthen our ability to step back? How do we deepen our capacity to be more aware, more self aware, to not just be lost in the events of our life and the content of our thoughts and emotions, actually consider them from a wise and reflective perspective. And so That can look like a lot of different things.

Oren: As you said, it can look like literally movement, walking, dancing, other practices, yoga, tai chi. It can look like art, storytelling, cooking, gardening, drinking tea, folding the laundry can be a contemplative practice. It's not about the activity itself. It's about how we're engaging with it and what we're using it to cultivate.

Oren: So you can say fold the laundry and just be daydreaming and kind of not really present. You can be folding the laundry and feel really agitated and rushed. Like, Oh, why do I have to do this? And I've got to get this done. And I have so many things on my plate and why am I always the one that has to do the laundry?

Monica: I can't relate to that. 

Oren: I will, I will digress here for a moment and say that my wife is the one who does the laundry in her house. However, I am, I am very proud that we have a very balanced and in many ways, untraditional marriage with a lot of, of shared duties. One of the key ones being is that I'm, I'm blessed to be sort of the primary caregiver for our child during the week while she's away at work.

Oren: So I work in the morning and I take care of him in the afternoon.

Monica: So, so good, so good. I love hearing that. 

Oren: So let's, let's go back to doing the laundry, um, which I do do sometimes when I'm, when I can, or. We can do the laundry in a way where we're cultivating ease, where we recognize I'm going to be folding the laundry for the next 10 minutes.

Oren: I might as well just fold the laundry. We can be folding laundry and cultivating a sense of, of care for the people who will be wearing these clothes that we love, who are like, yeah, I'm doing this to contribute to my family. We can be folding the laundry with a quality of curiosity about just our own heart.

Oren: How am I doing today? And taking that time to actually nourish ourselves. So. One point I'm making here is that anything can become a contemplative practice. The other point I'm making, which is one of the central principles of the book, is that we're always practicing something. Our hearts and minds are not fixed.

Oren: They are designed to learn. And so they're always learning something. They're always being shaped by what we are exposing ourselves to, what we're consuming. But perhaps more importantly, how we are engaging with. What's happening. So the way that we live becomes more and more the way that we live. And so if we practice every day, feeling rushed and stressed and irritated, guess what?

Oren: Like we're going to get really good at feeling rushed and stressed and irritated. And you know what? If every day we practice doing just what you did, taking a breath, trying to be present, focusing on patience, compassion, generosity, you know what? We're gonna get better and better at being present, being patient, being generous.

Oren: And this is The Dalai Lama calls it enlightened self interest. There's this recognition that living in this way, first and foremost, is beneficial to us. We are the first ones to benefit from our own kindness, our own generosity, our own compassion, because we feel better. We're not continually poisoning the waters of our own heart and mind.

Oren: And it's better for those around us. And then it positions us to be more resourced in the face of these major fault lines that are shifting in our world. 

Monica: I love that, Oren. Thank you so much for that. It also brings me up to, you know, how you, how you define. Mindfulness actually in the, in the back of the book is a note, you know, you say, it's less, it's less that mindfulness creates space and more that it reveals the space that is already present in awareness.

Monica: Yeah. So it's like this way of being. Embodied in this experience in this now moment as an intentional practice that continues to ask the question, what's here now over and over again, right? 

Oren: What's what's here now? And then how do I relate to it? How do I hold this? Kindness and with wisdom. And I want to, I want to say here, uh, Monica, one, this stuff isn't easy.

Oren: It's not, it's hard to do. And two, you know, we started our conversation talking about, you know, living life with your heart open, which is a beautiful aspiration. And one of the themes that runs through the book. that I want to touch on here, both in that question of heart, open, closed, but also the cultivation of mindfulness is that part of living, learning to live with a strong, open heart is allowing the heart to close and recognizing that as a healthy part of the process.

Oren: Everything goes through cycles. Everything goes through rhythms, including our own heart. And so when a flower is closed as a little, as a bud. You don't go and pull the pedals open and say, come on, open up, open up. I want to see what's inside. And so in the same way, when our heart closes for any reason, the practice is not one of saying, I want, I want my heart to be open, come on, or pushing.

Oren: It's actually just. Letting it be that way, giving it space and okay. Well, this is how it is right now. And in the same way, you know, practicing being aware, tapping into the space is present for whatever's happening. Sometimes what's happening is really, really hard and it's hard to be with and mindfulness doesn't come with some kind of Injunction that you always have to be present with what's happening.

Oren: Sometimes the most helpful thing to do is to recognize, yeah, this is too much. And to change the channel internally, or to focus on something else, to go take a walk or call a friend or tidy the kitchen, because that's what's needed to help come back into balance. So these, these tools that we're talking about and the principles underneath them, they're flexible.

Oren: We need to apply them with some wisdom and understanding of what's actually needed, what's going to be helpful right now. 

Monica: Yeah, I'm hearing the words attune to and attend to underneath what you just said. I find myself. More and more throughout the day, really just that, but actually that this, this wisdom that is my body, that there is this, that it has its own telemetry that I'm constantly being, that my, that my senses are kind of always telling me what's needed.

Monica: It's just that most of my life I have overridden. Yeah. And so beginning to understand and interpret these. Opportunities or these invitations to change the channel or to bring myself back from a place back into balance. So what I'm hearing you say is that that's that it gets to be that simple in some ways that it's noticing, Oh, I'm not in balance and whatever the thing is to kind of come back.

Monica: I'd also, you were, of course, bringing up my favorite subject, which is patience to say that. I say that with a little bit of sarcasm, but it's okay. I'd love to read this passage in your book, which I loved so much. 

Oren: Absolutely. Sure. 

Monica: Transforming the heart is a bit like growing a garden with the twist that we are both the garden and the gardener gardening takes time and energy.

Monica: We have to cultivate the ground. Plant seeds, water, and weed. It takes patience. We can't rush the process. I've mentioned how growing up, I buried myself in schoolwork and auditions to cope with difficult emotions. It took years to realize how angry and how hurt I felt. Although meditation revealed and softened some of the suppressed emotion, I needed more help to heal.

Monica: And then you go on to talk about different somatic therapy sessions. And the reason I wanted to bring this up. Is because I feel like as a collective or in there's a, a collective awakening to this, what I'll call this somatic understanding that is our body and understanding where it's okay to ask for help, where we can help ourselves, where it's okay to ask for help that.

Monica: As you mentioned earlier, you were noticing all of the places you had suppressed emotion. And of course, so much of what we're seeing play out in the world is coming from this traumatized reactionary place. That kind of perpetuates the very thing we all want to stop. And so it's really interesting because healing, as you mentioned, does require this loving attention, care, and understanding space to breathe and impatience, you say, stalls that process.

Oren: That's right. That's right. Yeah, you know, uh, thanks for sharing all that, and as you know from reading the chapter what, what I lead into there was this really powerful moment that I had with this somatic therapist I was working with. For anyone who's unfamiliar with that term we're using, it, it's a fancy way of saying body.

Oren: Soma is the body. So somatic just means. In your body of your body, not not drifting off and ideas and thoughts, but actually rooted and grounded and connected and what's happening right here in your own, in your own skin and your bones. So I was working with this therapist and, um, just sharing just how frustrated I felt.

Oren: This is my late twenties. And it's just like, I'm so tired of feeling so angry and, you know, and, and, uh, we had been sort of working through this way of. Every time an emotion would come up in me, I would start to feel it and start to express it, whether it's anger or grief, and then it would vanish. It would kind of go back under the surface like a gopher is like a stick his head out and then disappear.

Oren: And I knew enough by that point through my own meditation, another therapy that You know, like, let's just feel this stuff, you know, let's just feel it. Let it come through and move on is okay. And so I was just feeling so frustrated. It's like, I can't even get a hold of these emotions because as soon as they emerge the self protective mechanisms of pushing it down, come right back in and just this like armor of like, I'm okay.

Oren: I'm okay. Everything's cool. Kind of comes right back in. And so I was just, I was just so angry and frustrated about that. And I said that to him and he listened and he looked me right in the eyes and he goes, Oren, the slower you go here, the faster you go. And this is so clear. It went right in of just like, Oh, my very impatience to feel this stuff and get on with it is just adding more pressure to the system.

Oren: And the more I can just sit back and be Allowing of, yeah, okay, it's the motions here, now it's not here. The deeper and the quicker this will unfold naturally, not because I'm rushing it, but because I'm giving it the, those conditions that it needs of just all the time in the world. Go ahead. And somehow when we let go and surrender into that space of it's okay, all the time in the world, there's that invitation for things to open up and unfold.

Monica: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I love that. And that actually brings me to a word and a chapter. I think it's chapter nine. It's called renunciation. Is that right? 

Oren: That's right. That's right. 

Monica: I realized I was very unfamiliar with that concept. Oh, cool. That's Yeah. And am I correct about that? That has a relationship to what we were just talking about?

Oren: Yeah, yeah, it was. It's a central, it's a central practice and concept in Buddhism, as I talked about in the in the book, but it's, it's our capacity to let go. Yeah. Put quite simply, it's our capacity to let go, to put something down, to accept it. To renounce something, it's not this kind of, um, hardened ascetic, like, I give this up, it's, you know, you're sitting in traffic and you're stuck and you're gripping the wheel fervently and like, why is there traffic and I should have left earlier and God, I'm going to be late and this is kind of like, and you recognize all of a sudden that there's nothing I can do about this and I'm holding on inside.

Oren: I'm stuck. I'm stuck on this idea that I should have. I should have known better. I should have checked the traffic. I should have left earlier. The renunciation is that, is that capacity, that part that's holding on inside that stuck to just go, okay, to renounce, to let go, to, to cease fixating on whatever that idea is or that thing.

Oren: And to realize inside that. We have more space when we, when we put that down. So some of the synonyms I use for renunciation in the chapter, as you know, are things like simplicity, letting go. And one of my favorites, non addiction, non addiction. 

Monica: Well, not only do I love that word because it's a reword and I've just got a special affinity for all rewords that I've, I just haven't found a reword that I didn't love in some way, shape or form.

Monica: But I also. Really love this word. Now it's my new My new word that I love, I have these little word love affairs because I've noticed that I've been putting it into practice these last few years. And I just didn't know what to call it. I was calling it a surrender, but it's different than that. It's almost like it's this place where I noticed the exquisite tension, almost like the place where.

Monica: It's the habitual or the addiction to the, to the stress, like the habitual way that I have held, you know, whether it's my perfectionism or like that, that thing that I do, right? I'm sure everybody can relate to that thing that they do. So for me, it's that. moment of noticing that I'm doing that thing in the face of something I actually can't control and just allowing and accepting and embracing it in that moment and suddenly I can breathe again.

Oren: Yeah, it's a skill. I talk about it in the book as a skill. It's a skill. It's a certain muscle in the heart that knows how to let go. That knows how to put something down. And so this is it's very practical. We're not just speaking in kind of like lofty terms here. The example I give and I could tell the story is around food, the brownie story, the brownie story.

Monica: Oh my God, that was so good. I was like, Oh my God, no, no, he's not going to do it. Yeah. So 

Oren: I spent about two and a half or three years or I spent more than three years living at Buddhist monasteries and then a little less than three years in robes as a sort of monk in training. And when you, when you are living that lifestyle, there's a lot of renunciation, there's a lot of simplification in your life.

Oren: So you, you know, I was wearing white robes. So there goes all of your like wardrobe and a shaved head. There goes hairstyle. You only eat breakfast and lunch, no food in the evening. There goes dinner, no snacks, uh, no music, movies, entertainment, and then the big one, no sex. No, you know, so celibate, celibate lifestyle.

Oren: So there's an incredible simplification of our lives. And this is not because there's something amoral about music or movies or even sensuality. These are natural parts of our life, but it's saying what happens when we put all of those outlets for distraction and release and even healthy pleasure, we put all those outlets down and really start to study.

Oren: The heart, the mind and the human condition. What can we learn from that? This is the purpose. So living in this pressure cooker, um, and add to that. The fact that since my early 20s, I've had a chronic painful digestive condition known as colitis. I'm doing really great. Now. It's been in remission for a few years, but at the time that was not and so I needed to be really careful.

Oren: about what I ate. And in particular, some of the things that I really love to eat, baked goods, sweets, breads, and so forth. Who doesn't love that kind of stuff? Really terrible for me. So, you know, those living in this situation, you know, they could still have a piece of cake or a cookie or, you know, Uh, at the, at the main meal when it was offered, I could not, it was not healthy for my body.

Oren: So I would swing between these extremes of like total abstinence and then indulging, which, you know, anyone who's had any kind of food issues understands quite, quite intimately. This is one day I was going through the, I was, I'd gone through the line and I had seen these like really amazing looking brownies and I didn't take one.

Oren: But I didn't take one, not out of a true renunciation, out of a true letting go and acceptance, but out of some suppression, I was like, no, like, no, no, no, just kind of push it down. So after the meal, I'm walking with my alms bowl in the ablutions block, going to clean to clean the bowl. And, you know, everyone takes whatever's left and they, you know, push it out into the compost bucket.

Oren: And as I go to pass the compost bucket, I see there, top of the pile of food slop, this whole brownie. 

Monica: Perfect brownie, 

Oren: just yeah, just perfect square glistening that's on top. Someone had taken and not eaten. And so I looked around, no one was looking. I reached my hand and I grabbed it. I like hid it under my robe and I went into the bathroom, into the bathroom stall and like scarf the brownie down.

Oren: And I was just like such a humbling moment. I was like, Oh God, Oren, what are you doing? And it was just, but it was also beautiful. I didn't judge myself. I didn't beat myself. I was like, okay, like there's, there's really something to learn here. This is not a healthy, balanced relationship. This is not the intention of these forms.

Oren: And so I had to learn, you know, like about what is it to really. let go of this really intense craving, not just for the sweets, of course, but for the comfort for that sense of like, I get to have, I get to have something special and enjoy myself. So the skill of renunciation, it starts with very concrete, practical, simple things like our relationship with the material world and these creature comforts.

Oren: And again, not that there's something wrong with creature comforts, they're really important actually for self regulation, but what's our relationship with them? And do we have choice? Do we have agency or are we, are we bound to them? Are we kind of imprisoned? by our need or dependence on them. And then the skill of renunciation that starts to move into deeper layers in the psyche.

Oren: So when I'm having an argument with my wife, and I think I'm right, am I able to let go of to not be addicted to being right?

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Monica: Okay, this is so good. I'm like I literally was just going to ask you if this would also apply to like the craving for righteousness, like for, for being right, which, yeah. Which is so interesting because right before I hopped on, I had to peek on Instagram at a post that I put up and I was being corrected about something on the post and I was having a really hard time like staying in my body at the moment that I was hopping on the call with you because I was Recognizing how in this post, I generalized something that didn't work with one of my audience members and she corrected me and I noticed again in the, in the exquisite tension of that moment, wanting to defend.

Monica: And, and, and look, I love that your body language right now is like, let it go, Monica, let it go.

Oren: I just feel, I just feeling what that's like. I know that place. 

Monica: Yeah, yeah. And just in that moment, recognizing like, I literally had to like, have a little, have a little sit down with myself, right? And just be like, Yeah, because that for me is the revelation project or in that those moments, right.

Monica: Uh, of, it's kind of like the way that you. We're in the monastery and everything got simplified, but to the place where all you had left was the basics and you write to contend with. And for me, that's my version of, or what you were doing was like what I would call the revelation project, which is that moment where you get to look at your own behavior in the face and then.

Monica: Apply kindness. And so that was the conversation that I was having with myself. It's okay to be corrected, Monica. It's okay to. It's okay. Like all those things that we forget and then remember about what it means to be human. And what I'm really noticing in myself these days is what am I doing or not doing that is contributing to the conflict out there to see what I'm saying.

Monica: So it really has, has created this way for me to engage. And look through the lens of conflict and like, how am I perpetuating that out in the world based on what I'm creating inside here? Yeah. And I feel like that's so much what you're teaching us through your book is like really simple ways to attend to and attune to the parts of ourselves that are in constant trauma or conflict.

Oren: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, on the story you just told, it's like in the language of my first book. I would say, would you rather be right or be free? And then, in terms of this book we're talking about now, Your Heart Was Made For This, how, how do we let go? Like, how do I move from that place of, no, I'm right, to letting it go, to moving into more space and freedom?

Oren: One of the things that I'm really, you know, excited about with this book is that it's not just theoretical, right? That every chapter, there's a reflection, there's some meditation instructions for those who want to go into that. There's an action, something you can do. And then there are tips. Okay, here's how to work with difficulties that arise, problems that are common.

Oren: So the chapter on renunciation, for example, their practices for let's look at how to really practice with this in your day to day life and make it real. 

Monica: Yeah, because What happens, of course, is actually something new gets born that is so powerful with this work, as you know, because it's, it's, yeah, you know, everything that you just said, and there's this whole.

Monica: Other thing that happens that ends up revealing a whole new world of possibilities when we practice doing this, because our capacity to be with so much more, including, as we said earlier, when you are in this open hearted place, not only do you experience, you know, the grief, but you also experience a whole nother level of gratitude for.

Monica: All of the new revelations that come through from enduring, right? From enduring. It's really quite profound. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to read this little place in your book on renunciation. So here we go. Renunciation expresses the heart's innate capacity to let go and experience inner richness, understanding directly how less is more.

Monica: It strips away distraction, reveals the improbable miracle of being alive, and fulfills us through contentment rather than accumulation. It also checks the flood of craving and unlocks a door to our inner wealth. So yes, it is one of our most overlooked inner resources, as you say, 

Oren: Yeah, from the perspective of consumption, renunciation looks like deprivation, but from within the experience of renunciation, it's fulfillment.

Oren: And we recognize what we already have and feel a sense of satisfaction. There's enough here. It opens into contentment. 

Monica: Actually, it's so many of your teachings on that reminded me of Lynn Twist. Teachings on sufficiency, right? And how, how it's like when you let go of this idea that you need more, you're left with the appreciation of what you have, that actually what you appreciate appreciates, right?

Monica: It's so fascinating when you, again, that to me is like this renunciation that. Tension of like the more, and then suddenly releasing into the gratitude of what I already have. And suddenly a whole new world of appreciation and gratitude opens up. So early in the book, you talk about three key practices or principles, right?

Monica: For trauma informed practice. Yes. And I think these would be super useful. To talk about. 

Oren: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Let's talk about them. So yeah. So the idea of course, is that, um, most of us have lived through some kind of trauma and I would even go so far as to say, and I don't think it's a stretch that anyone alive on the planet today has experiencing trauma just by virtue of the climate crisis, the wars that are unfolding, the level of Yeah.

Oren: Of violence and poverty and devastation that so many people are living with, even if it's not affecting us directly yet, the heart feels it. And so there's this underlying anxiety and uncertainty and pain because we're connected. So, how do we begin to have a relationship with or continue to have a relationship with our inner life when there are these very strong forces that can throw us off of trauma?

Oren: So, the three principles that I talk about that are woven through the book, the first is starting from a place of wholeness and being relatively okay in the moment, and that can sometimes feel elusive. So, how do we get there? I talk about the skill of orienting. Which is hardwired into us as mammals in which you will see other mammals in the wild doing, which is just this ability to kind of like look around and check things out where you are and register physical safety to the degree that it's available.

Oren: And no, like in this moment, this is where I am and I'm okay. And that's not a thought. It's something that your physiology takes in by using your eyes, your ears, your head, your neck to look around and take things in. This is the first principle to start from a place of being oriented, grounded, and connecting with your own wholeness.

Oren: The second principle is to start small, you know, baby steps. Just take things in in bite sized manageable pieces, particularly if we're working with something difficult, if we feel overwhelmed, if we feel depressed, if we feel lost, confused. Don't jump right into the center of the problem. That's probably just going to flood you.

Oren: But start, start a little bit at a time. One of the analogies I like to use is if you have a cut or something, a big scrape, it doesn't start healing at the center. First a scab forms and then it heals at the edges a little bit at a time. You don't get into the center until the very end. And so it's the same way when we're starting, when we're trying to attend to some emotional psychological or psychic wound inside is start at the edges a little bit at a time.

Oren: But then the last principle is to go back and forth between what's difficult or challenging and what's easier and supportive, soothing, nourishing. So we want to have some kind of healthy resource, something that feels uplifting or comforting, available inwardly or outwardly. And then to move naturally, rhythmically between whatever it is that's upsetting us, that's hard, that's challenging, whether it's personal or collective, and something that's resourcing, something that's grounding.

Oren: I was With some friends the other night, part of a group that I I'm in, and we're reading a book about some of the crises that are unfolding around the planet. We were reading a passage. It's very upsetting. It's a lot to take in. And so, you know, I could hear everyone sort of like groaning, taking deep breaths as we're passing the book around to reading it aloud.

Oren: And the book came to me and, you know, I just kind of like, I don't know about you guys. Like, I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed. Like, Anyone up for just taking a pause and like grounding together. And it was just this, this, just that rhythm of what's difficult in the content. And then let's pause, let's take some deep breaths.

Oren: That's like, just, and then one of the other people in the group is going to sound probably, I don't know how folks are going to receive this. I'm here in California. Someone next to me said like, would any, you know, is anyone up for some touch? And so, you know, we just kind of like everyone's or some one person put one's hips or hand on someone else's shoulder.

Oren: Like, you know, a person that holds, held someone else's hand. It's just that grounding. So there is that resource to balance and integrate the thing that was difficult. We can do this with others. We can do it on our own. 

Monica: Isn't that funny though, or in how we make that weird? Yeah, I do. You know what I mean?

Monica: Like, it's so interesting to me. And now foreign, right? But it didn't, you know, growing up in this culture, of course, and being conditioned by this culture as part of the conditioning and part of the unbecoming process, which, you know, I know you and I kind of touched on this idea of unbecoming and it being very kind of different concept or, or having some similarities in Buddhism, but it's the unbecoming of the conditioning is all of the unbecoming ways we feel.

Monica: Or we feel like we're going to be received when we say or do the thing that's not sanctioned. 

Oren: Right. And yeah, let's, let's be totally real. Like touch is one of the most natural things for humans and so soothing and supportive when it's healthy and welcome. 

Monica: Yeah, totally. I mean, consensual, absolutely. And yeah, but I'm just going to bring up that one of my already always ways of being in life has been to wear my shoulders as earrings, you know, it's just.

Monica: It's so unconscious and, you know, in the most loving way, my husband will come and just put his hands, you know, on my shoulders and it's just like, just that touch, just that momentary, you know, it's like, again, these places where we. We need help. And I think some parts of what we're remembering now is I get to ask for help.

Monica: Like I have the right to ask for help. I have the right to, you know, it's like our basic human rights touch feeling loved, heard, seen, right. I think we're, we're starting to recognize how starving we are. For these basic things. 

Oren: Well said. 

Monica: So I know that we're coming up on time. So I wonder, Oren, like where would you like to take the conversation?

Monica: What do you think is most important, you know, for our listeners at this point? And. You know, maybe it has something to do with unbecoming, maybe it has something to do with what's happening in the world right now and more ways that you can help us to remember the resources we have within ourselves, but wherever you want to take it.

Oren: Thanks. Yeah, I think, I think we've done a good job at covering. Some of the inner stuff, this recognition that contemplative practice doesn't need to be esoteric, that we have an inner life that we can shape, that there's beautiful gifts and resources awaiting us inside and out, that we can strengthen when we attend to them, what we appreciate appreciates, we're always practicing something.

Oren: I think where I'd like to go now is turning outward. And, uh, first, naming that we don't have to choose between inner cultivation, self care, spirituality, and social change. That's a false choice and that the two actually support each other. That the more we attend to our inner life, the more we have to offer to the world, to our community.

Oren: And the more we engage and respond and pitch in and contribute, in ways that make sense to us, that are within our capacities, the more enriched our inner life becomes, the more we can receive the nourishment of our own goodness. And so I think one of the things that so many people I'm speaking with today are struggling with is this pervasive sense of overwhelm and helplessness.

Oren: The forces that are unfolding around our world in many ways are beyond our personal control or influence. So how do we deal with that? You know, there's that fault line, right? How do we not just walk on eggshells? One of the central messages Of the book is, is that doing what we can, whatever we can is empowering, that it reduces anxiety.

Oren: It creates energy and it can inspire others. I think there's too much need. In our world, there are too many problems for us to try to do everything, but that also means there's too much need in our world for us to do nothing. So the invitation is to take care of ourselves, to attune and attend to what's happening, as you said so beautifully, care for what's happening, and then look and see what can I offer?

Oren: What do I feel called to do? What's right in front of me that I can help with and to actually take steps in that direction. So it could be something in our neighborhood, in our school, in our community, in our town or city, at any level, whatever it is, learning. And getting involved is healing, is empowering.

Oren: And if all of us are moving in that direction and doing it, doing something, I feel a lot more hope about the future. Because the way things change is not linear. The systems that are swirling around, they, they follow systems theory and there's network effects and tipping points. And so, we don't know for sure.

Oren: In the end, what the effects will be of small local actions. So this, this is an area that I feel really passionate about and that we haven't touched on yet. 

Monica: Yeah, I love that. Well, it begs the question. Do you feel hopeful about the future?

Oren: Long pause.

Oren: I don't feel hopeful, but I also don't feel pessimistic. I try to be realistic and the truth is a lot of not knowing. That's the truth is a lot of not knowing and that's uncomfortable, but I think that that is aligned with what's real. What's real is that we don't know. We don't know where, you know, the climate crisis is headed.

Oren: It's not looking good. We don't know what the ultimate effects are going to be on our institutions and, you know, how people may or may not come together. in moment of crisis. We don't know where the war in the Middle East is going. You know, will this continue to spiral out of control and turn into World War III?

Oren: Will it lead to some tipping point where the hopes and the visions of peace in the Middle East for a century will somehow be realized because things have gotten so out of hand? You know, it's, we don't know. And so for me, part of my practice is trying to stay connected to that truth of not knowing and to move from there with open eyes and an open heart.

Monica: Thank you. Thank you so much for your honesty. And also, you know, I, I also really hear in that the meeting place, you know, where we're really are at an all hands on deck moment in our human mess. 

Oren: I'll tell you what does give me hope, having conversations like this. Knowing that people are listening and grappling with it and the vast numbers of people that are doing really inspiring, good, beautiful things, you know, rivers being granted rights.

Oren: In South America, I heard, you know, this one, one case that happened just this morning. Uh, the first landmark case where the, here in the state of California, the department of fish and wildlife is returning attractive land to the indigenous tribes. So there is good happening. Yes, there is. And we don't, if you just get your news from mainstream media, you, you don't hear most of it.

Oren: So that gives me hope is. Attending to the stories that aren't being told about all the good that's happening and people who are making real sincere efforts and actually seeing, seeing shifts and changes. 

Monica: Yeah, it's, it, there is so much happening. It's true. And I do think, you know, that. That there's a wisdom here, you know, that, well, more to be revealed, right?

Monica: I mean, this is, you know, my way of interacting with all of the things that I can't control is recognizing that, that there will, you know, more will be revealed and that what gets revealed gets healed. You know, that there's actually this way of, you know, I know people jokingly talk about the apocalypse and very seriously talk about the apocalypse, but just the word in itself, Is really about revealing, lifting the veils of illusion, you know, and seeing a deeper truth or an experiencing.

Monica: And I think, you know, not that I need to tie this in a pretty bow at the end, but what I would love to say is that one area we didn't get into in our conversation, although we did talk about a lot was you really have this beautiful. Chapter on forgiveness. And there's a way that I feel that forgiveness is the most available and least leveraged resource we have, you know, that, like, that actually there is so much more to be revealed for our human experience and our collective experience, and it's in this realm of forgiveness.

Monica: I really just want to encourage my listener to get your books for so many reasons, but especially your teachings on forgiveness, which I think are so powerful and relevant for right now. And I just really want to thank you, Oren. Thank you for your work. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for your authentic and very human way of being in the world with.

Monica: You know, really some profound and difficult material, you know, you make it very available to people. And I've just really enjoyed reading. Your work and getting to know you. Thank you. 

Oren: I'm touched. Thank you so much for having me on the show and taking the time to explore it together. 

Monica: Yeah. And where would you like my listener to learn more about you or which ways can they work with you?

Oren: Yeah. The best way to connect with my work and stay in touch is through my website. which is oranjsopher. com. And I have, uh, I have an email newsletter. I send out a couple of notes per month with a teaching, a practice, or reflection. I am on social media, uh, although as a parent of a young child, I'm not on there as often as I used to be.

Oren: Um, but for those who, who enjoy that or are in those spaces, I'm there on, you Instagram, Facebook, et cetera, at oranjsopher. 

Monica: Yes. Okay. Awesome. And there's this beautiful book, which of course I've like dog eared already and highlighted and tagged. So highly encouraged. And of course, if you're listening and want to have a chance to win our monthly giveaway, which is actually all about.

Monica: You know, this unbecoming process and reciprocity and all of the ways that we are exercising the muscle of both giving and receiving, please sign up to be part of our giveaway by going to jointherevelation. com. So we'll be sure to put all of Orin's links in the show notes. And until next time, more to be revealed.

Monica: We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list, or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always, more to be revealed.