109_Lukas and Taran === Lukas: I like that. What comes to mind to me in, at least in my experience of I was raised Methodist. My dad was Catholic too, so like, but anyway, we were basically raised Methodist, but it always felt like religious discourse was. Bowling with the bumpers, you know, there's no way that you're gonna get into a taboo area. There's no way to go off the rails. It was like, oh, that's accepted as long as it's, you know, talking about Jesus. So it's all good, you know, and it's just like, no one questioned anything. They went, you know, Taran: I mean, and then, you know, the reason kind of that I brought this up is that, that I feel like has a pretty direct translation into people's normative social behavior where there's a lot more, just, everybody was nice all the time we were in the south. So plenty of people were nice all the time, but there were plenty of folks that, that kind of a argumentative irascibility. That I think often gets stereotyped as loud, boisterous, arguing Jewish families. Like there's a reason that's a stereotype. There's a little sort of slumpy, right? Both in terms of individual family units and in bigger social groups. === Monica: Welcome to The Revelation Project podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed. It gets healed. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Revelation Project podcast today, I'm with two very special gentlemen, I have already had the honor of speaking with them on their podcast called the Apricot Jam I'm with Lucas Wolf. Who's an acupuncturist, herbalist and martial artist in Brooklyn, New York. His days can pretty much be summed up as punch kick heal,rinse. repeat I love that Lukas. I am also. Taran Rosenthal. Taran is a dad, a classical Chinese medicine practitioner, a lifelong mover, and cohost of the Apricot Jam podcast, his endlessly curious and immensely grateful to be kin to all beings. Welcome you guys. Lukas: Thank you. Taran: Thanks Monica. It's great to be here. Monica: I love the endlessly curious I can so relate to that. Has it always been that way for you Taran Taran: As long as I can remember, which is pretty far back. So I'm going to say yes. Monica: And was it, and was it always encouraged and never shut down? Taran: Oh, um, no. I mean, but I would certainly credit my parents for supporting it probably more often than was comfortable even if, maybe not all the time. I love that. Monica: So I give them a lot of props for that. Yeah, it's true. Right? The whole comfort discomfort, especially as a parent, when you have a super curious kid, it's like, do we really need to talk about that right now? Taran: Yeah. Monica: Yeah. And be honest about it. Taran: Right? Monica: Yeah. Cause it's not very convenient to have a super curious child. Taran: No, it certainly isn't. And you know, there's like often with kids, I'm like thinking of my own daughter who's 11 and is very bright and very curious. Sometimes she'll use that as a way more of getting boundary feedback than actually about engaging curiosity. And so like, yeah. And I think that's a totally valid inquiry too, but at the same time, there's a much harder limit for me with boundary inquiry where I'm like, okay, we've talked about it for 20 minutes. It doesn't go anywhere else. Now we're just like in this weird merry-go-round, but it's not very merry, even though it keeps going around. Um, so, you know, like parsing and I certainly am not always right about my feeling or assessment of where w you know, we're, we're kind of like pushing that edge. So I think my parents. Had a little bit of a lower threshold maybe than, than the one that I currently have with my own kid for that question of curiosity slash boundary inquiry. And I'm sure that there's a lot of other dynamics and dimensions to it, but definitely at the moment, those things feel a little bit like a yen yong, you know, a reciprocal tension. Dynamic with my kid. Monica: I get it. I so get it. I was that curious kid too. And, uh, I have to say that. Yeah, it, it definitely had its moments, you know, where I to, you know, had. Endless curiosity and just got the sense from most adults around me, that there was a limit to how much they were going to humor me, encourage me. And really, it's just fascinating. Right? Trying to look at all of the ways that you want to do it differently with your own kids and. Yeah. You know, what you said about boundaries is so great and so important because otherwise I find that it's like, I'm like, are we now hostage negotiating? How about you, Lucas? What about you when it comes to curiosity? Cause you guys are, are obviously, you know, like this is part of what you guys are all about with the podcast, right? Lukas: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what my mom would say growing up or anything, but I was definitely more the quiet one to observe. Do you know? And I, and I still sort of am that. I like to assess a situation before I necessarily dive right in my adult life. I've been trying to do that more. Do you know where? Just, just don't you don't need to know all the specifics about the situation. Just try. Do you know? Monica: Yeah. Lukas: But I was definitely, like, I remember like my mother really liked going to church and being social afterwards. That was really the interest of church. I mean, sure. They were very religious, but like me, we spent hours in the post church in like the, what do you call it? Like the foyer or whatever at night. And she would just talk to reception and yeah, like. Right. Monica: It's it's, it's totally bringing up memories for me actually, because I had totally forgotten about that social aspect after church. Lukas: It was probably only 15 minutes, but it felt like hours. Monica: And I was always dreaming about what food was going to be a part of the social. I mean, that's where I went with it. Lukas: Oh, a hundred percent that it was not until I was like, Teens that we got one of those to see someone decided to put on a pot of coffee and make some cakes, you know, is this like, but it totally revolutionized the way we like interacted after church. But I remember like, I think I learned a lot about like the social niceties and the, and the, the play that is our social structure and like how we present ourselves to people. Do you know? Cause it was such a dichotomy of how people. Interacted with each other in this arena. And then how, cause I got to see people in more intimate settings then later, do you know where, like we went on mission trip, obviously I see my parents outside of church. So like I know how they interact with, uh, you know, us and the rest of the family. So it was just like, I could see that, oh, this is like an, like a play, you know, we, there's a reciprocation that needs to, it's like a bouncing a ball back and forth like, oh, No one's ever sort of abrasive in this interaction. It's so like you toss the ball of happiness back to you and you toss it back to me. Oh, isn't this jolly. And you know what I mean? And it was like, I dunno, it was just interesting. And that's, I don't know if that's a very Pennsylvania thing or Monica: Oh no, Lukas: I joke that PA stands for passive aggression because it, it just seemed like such a microcosm at the time. Monica: It's like Pleasantville, you know, kind of. Right. Where, where it's just, everything is just so pleasant. Yeah. I love that. You brought that up, Lucas. Yeah Taran: That's fascinating. Right? Because I grew up in a pretty, in a traditional Jewish household and that is not the way that works. Monica: Tell me more. I, that sounds so refreshing to me. Lukas: I really appreciate that now, you know Taran: Always strengthened and challenges, right. But so Judaism is a very, um, Is a faith and a culture that puts a lot of importance on argumentation and debate. And, you know, study is often and here we go, actually thinking about curiosity. So I, I certainly grew up within a religious space where, you know, while there were limits to what it was acceptable to ask, there's a kind of Socratic. Nature to studying the Torah and to inquiring about religion. There's this notion right from the Torah about, let me make sure that I've got my character, right. It's been a minute since I thought about this, but I think, uh, Isaac who became Israel, right. He wrestled with an angel and was injured. Right? And so this idea of wrestling with God and wrestling with these kinds of questions of the nature of reality and divinity and. You know, ethics and morals like it, there there's a, um, I mean, and I think sometimes too combative for my taste. Right. There's other modes of inquiry, but I do appreciate the fact that it's not like it's not settled. Right. Um, it's, you know, certainly there are always going to be places you can find in any religious contexts where people insist that things are settled, but there's an inherent unsettleness to Judaic discourse, which I think I really appreciate. Lukas: I like that. What comes to mind to me in, at least in my experience of I was raised Methodist. My dad was Catholic too, so like, but anyway, we were basically raised Methodist, but it always felt like religious discourse was. Bowling with the bumpers, you know, there's no way that you're gonna get into a taboo area. There's no way to go off the rails. It was like, oh, that's accepted as long as it's, you know, talking about Jesus. So it's all good, you know, and it's just like, no one questioned anything. They went, you know, Taran: I mean, and then, you know, the reason kind of that I brought this up is that, that I feel like has a pretty direct translation into people's normative social behavior where there's a lot more, just, everybody was nice all the time we were in the south. So plenty of people were nice all the time, but there were plenty of folks that, that kind of a argumentative irascibility. That I think often gets stereotyped as loud, boisterous, arguing Jewish families. Like there's a reason that's a stereotype. There's a little sort of slumpy, right? Both in terms of individual family units and in bigger social groups. So it was an interesting thing to be in Atlanta and like a fairly high Southern level of gentleness. Creating friction with this other kind of cultural dynamic. Right. And how that, you know, oil and water did. And didn't mix was fascinating. Lukas: Did everybody end the argument about the Torah without bless your heart, Taran: but that would have been amazing. And certainly in the movie version of the comedy movie version of my childhood, yes. Monica: Can we all have a comedy version of her childhood, please? Would that not just be the most cathartic thing ever? Lukas: Absolutlely Oh my gosh. Monica: Okay. I'm just, I know. Well, well, I encourage that. I th I think that's the therapeutic part of it, right? Is the dark, the dark. True paradoxical. Crazy-making humor of it all. Taran: Totally Lukas: Most of the successful comedy writers and maybe not like maybe even sort of dark comedy kind of things end up being able to do that. Like that's their blessing. Their, their calling in life is to be able to pull from their childhood and just be like, this was ridiculous. But it's probably something that happened to most people. And here you go. I mean, girls. Monica: Yeah. Lukas: I mean, it was a slice of most people's lives, but it just was so resonant and so true. And like, you. It was so successful. Like there's a new series called Penn 15. I don't know if you saw that. It's really great. It's great. It's weird. It's twisted mainly because the two writers are these, these two adult women who are in their, in their thirties and they're playing like 14 year old girl. And they're playing with 14 year old actors. It's hilarious. And they're like, you know, I have crushes and things. It's super awkward. They're going through puberty. It's like, it's so raw and real. That's what makes it so uncomfortable to watch? Yes. But at the same time, it's so enjoyable and kind of addictive. And also you just think you can't help. She's definitely at least 30, like Monica: Cognitive dissonance at its finest, Lukas: But if only we all got the chance to be able to do something like that, just really get it out. I think it would be great. Monica: Well, plus my father was like the king of the one-liners. And he used to say things like Monica, you know, pain builds character for more pain. Right. Or it was just, you know, the, that way that, and, you know, people have been like, you're really funny. And I'm like, thanks. It's the trauma, you know, like there's just a way that sometimes that develops us in such a way that it's. Useful it's I don't know, you know, it's this weird disguised gift to have had, you know, because even Lucas, how you were explaining how surface level, how Pleasantville right you're upping bringing was, there's also that element for you that was like, oh, Hey, wait a minute here. You know? I think there's just a way that as individuals, we are always going to bump up against that place. Like you were describing where it's bulling inside the bumpers and when, and where do we dare to bowl outside the bumpers? Lukas: Yeah. I'm, uh, in some ways surprised that more people. In that, in those contexts, when they get the chance, like just tear off the bumpers Dean enemy. Once they have their own, once they get to be of age, they leave the house and they, they just go bananas. Luckily it doesn't happen as often as you'd think. Monica: Well, it's interesting. My daughter is at university. This is her first year and we, I think, I think what's both. Well, I'm like, how do I, how do I say this inside the bumper? So let me just stop doing that. So, so one of the things that we're experiencing is she's kind of like amazed that so many kids are so free now that they're at college and like, and how they're spending or, or using that freedom is partying and drinking. And we kind of, she was kind of a free range kid. Uh, so we didn't have a whole lot of rules or restrictions. We were more, you know, I would just really get curious with my kids, like, Hey, do you think that's a good idea or help me understand, like, uh, what's your plan. If something goes wrong, tell me about it. You know, like, you know, talked about a lot of like unintended consequences or unintended impact. Uh, it really, it really trying to encourage them to get. Critically think about things. And then it's like, as long as they had critically thought about it, I was like, well, do whatever you want to do. You know, like whatever's feels good to you. But knowing that they had kind of looked at it from a number of different angles. And I guess I would just bring that up because, you know, you'd said like, I wonder why more people, but it's like, there's this way that I think we're inculturated to think, oh, we can party and drink now versus all of the other ways that we could. Well outside the bumpers. I don't know. Taryn. What do you think? Taran: I think it's really fascinating that somehow freedom is equated with excess. Ah, yeah. I think it's such an artifact of capitalism, quite frankly. And the commodification of, oh, I don't know everything. So that somehow more means free. Right. And I, and I'm not saying that sometimes. More, isn't a way to explore it, engage freedom. But I, I feel like it's what you're pointing to Monica. Like it's such a limited orientation to what we can do if we decide to like, even just start to move the bumpers out a little bit further. So, you know, we can see what it feels like to have a little more space. Investigate, um, or ask questions or be curious. And that's one of the things we're talking about, you know, and I pushed that boundary plenty hard for a lot of reasons in my younger days, too. So I'm, I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that going into non-ordinary states. Which certainly can be one reason to party they're maybe not always entirely congruent or consonant with what's happening at many kinds of parties, but nonetheless, by literally getting out of what I think of as my head, you know, or the experience that I'm identified with it affords opportunities to start to see things in a defense. Monica: Mm, Taran: Feel things in a different way, relate in a different way. So like, I, I get it, but I don't know that. I mean, that's certainly a reason that people engage in behaviors like that. I don't know that that's the main reason though. I think the main reason really is like, is some other kind of, I feel like we have been sold this bill of goods right on this kind of fundamental and culturated level where, you know, and I'm going to repeat myself, but like, you know, where somehow more is better and more is freer. And in some respects, The more, doesn't matter. It can be objects, it can be substances. It can be, I mean, mostly it's objects or, or substances, right? Like that's kind of the thing that we are told is that we need more things and we need to work harder and faster and more. And so there's this like, you know, crazy, uh, oscillation between stimulation and . That we see as like a big part of the swing, which is this, like, it's, it's like the diurnal cycle decoupled from harmony. Well, I mean, if you think about, you know, the sunrises and ideally we'd get up and the sun goes down and we go to sleep, right. That the excitation or stimulation end is, you know, it's not enough for the sun to rise and for us to get up and do our thing, we have to like do it at 11. I don't mean 11:00 AM, but like, you know, spinal tap do it at 11. And then similarly it's like, we're going so hard and so fast, you know, with information visuals, caffeine, you know, maybe other things, and then you have to shut it down. And so we do that also with the support of. Other kinds of resources. Hmm. So yeah. Monica: Yeah. Well, I was just going to say, it's bringing up, like, I, I know that something that's really potent and nourishing for you is the mystery of exploring really rich conversation. And when I think about, you know, what you're describing, I think about, okay, so what. Missing from us being able to make these deeper connections and have more of these contexts for understanding our lives in a different way. And what comes up for me is what's missing for so many of us is relational skills. You know, just saying, Taran: I told her Monica: Just, it feels so. Lukas: I, I used to, I still do it to a certain extent, but I used to engage with older people more often than not because I had an older brother. So, you know, I sort of naturally gravitated towards people who were senior to me to find stimulation sometimes, you know, conversation didn't matter, but regardless. So I think eyes are because of that inclination and. Being stimulated by potentially more interesting conversations. I didn't have that much of an issue talking to somebody parents, you know, when I'm, when I met a new friend or something like that, like that wasn't intimidating to me necessarily. It was like, I can hang with these guys. Like, let's talk about some stuff. And I think that, I think you're right. I think that. When you don't know the value of a, an incredibly stimulating conversation. Now, when you're actually, you know, plumbing, the depths of some of our understanding of something, and you're expanding your, your viewpoint on something it's incredibly rewarding. It's an endorphine check, you know, And so when you don't have that experience and you go and you experiencing freedom, you're looking for dopamine somewhere else, you know, so drinking and, you know, excitation rather than like, wow. You know, stillness can be really awesome. Like, I mean, my path was a little funnier. I mean, uh, I grew up in the, in the boondock, so like, we didn't have a lot of stimulations let's say, so we ended up sitting around smoking cigarettes, did you know what I mean. And so like, In which led to really great conversations, because we were just worried about stillness and we were in nature and things like that. So it's really wonderful, but maybe not the most normal situation. Yeah. I wasn't. I think because of that, I wasn't really interested in like, like drugs didn't seem really interesting to me necessarily at the time. And I didn't really drink that much. You know, even when I went to college, you know, all my friends were like, just going to this party, that party I'm like. I wanted, I found a little group of friends and we had really cool conversations. It was just like incident really interesting. Monica: Yeah, it is interesting. Cause I, I, I too was not a big drinker, but I had also experienced like a massive loss. My dad had passed when I was like 20 and I think it just, it talk about a sobering experience. I really, I think that at that age, and I can relate to what you were saying too about cravings. Sometimes that elder wisdom, you know, of parents and, and even. Any elders, because I think my experience felt so grown up. So like, I didn't have, I think that, and maybe I'm making a crating, you know, that kind of party and drinking. Like I didn't necessarily. I felt like after I'd done that a couple of times I was like, been there, done that. I think too. Maybe I'm just built to plunge the depths. Maybe. I don't know, you know, I brag, right? Like I can own that as a, as a beautiful thing, you know, as a, as a beautiful scale. What about you Terran? Taran: What about me in this case? In what way? W where, where, where are we inquiring relationally Monica: Relational skills and how, how was your kind of upbringing and going off to school? And, Taran: Yeah, so I like, you know, I'm sure many folks that are listening. I had a pretty challenging family of origin. I mean, my parents were wonderful, but no, Not very well in themselves. And so relationally, mostly, it was like a question of how to survive in an incredibly chaotic and unpredictable and, um, not physically violent, but emotionally and psychologically violent environment. So I was, I was pretty good at surviving, but I was not particularly good at. Uh, harmoniously navigating social contexts because I was on such high alert all the time that I would default to some modes of interaction that were way more combative than I think is necessary, warranted or desirable for most people. So I had to really like come through enough of the, the feedback in my system. Right to kind of like cultivate enough capacity to see it as feedback on my own consciousness and recognize that I wasn't really relating to reality in any kind of consensual way and that I needed to do something about it. And then the doing something about it what's today Took a long time, right. It took a long time and. And I would certainly say not so much on the outside at this point, but there's still plenty of internal work in progress on that front. So, you know, learning more about how to navigate those social circumstances, right? Like lots of time in the service industry and working as a bartender and, you know, managing large. catered events and restaurants and things like this. That was certainly like a pretty robust school of hard knocks and not working in a variety of spiritual contexts and helping facilitate ceremony. Also a great opportunity to get feedback on what really wasn't working. So, I mean, I think that I'm one of those people, historically, who. Would have liked to have been a quicker study than I probably was when it came to such things, but it really took just an inordinate amount of getting my ass handed to me, to like put two and two together and get four. But at the same time, I mean, you know, it's like, I think if you're someone who's interested in being. Within the helping professions or within a space of helping people learn how to heal themselves. Having a pretty Rocky road often ends up being an asset in the long view, even if, as we go from there to here, you know, and maybe it's. On the high end of the more Securitas paths one could take, uh, to not being a schmuck most of the time. Monica: Um, and, and when did you know that you wanted to do that, that you wanted to facilitate that for others and help others? Taran: So, pretty early actually, what form it was going to take has had a lot of iterations, but. The thing about families from my point of view is that no matter what your family looks like, it's what the world is. You don't, when you're young enough, you don't really have any way of knowing that there might be another way of being other than the way that your family is. But at a, at a pretty young age, it occurred to me after one of the more intense, disruptive moments in our family. That even if that's the way the world was. That wasn't okay. And I needed to get on a road to somehow finding a different world, changing myself so that I related to the world differently. Um, helping other people, right. It wasn't like a fully formed idea at that point, because I was quite young, but the Lodestar of like, okay, There is a more harmonious way that's available somehow, even if you don't know how to imagine it yet. And you need to really start to orient yourself to a road of discovery and inquiry that. We'll help you develop an imaginary where those things are possible and then maybe you can learn how to be them and live them. You know? So that was, I was probably still in the single digits when I had that epiphany. I think probably a, that doesn't of course mean. Any kind of skillful navigation was happening at that point, but it just dawned on me that there was some kind of inquiry and work to do and I better get on it because it was probably going to take awhile. Monica: Yeah. Like there's got to be another way. Yeah. Lukas: Yeah. Taran: And fortunately there are, there are lots of other ways. Lukas: Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I feel like those experiences. Necessarily well, including the child, early childhood stuff, you know, it creates a polarity from homeostasis. So it makes you want to the potential for discovery of something different. Is there right. Monica: Maybe this is a great segue. I would love, love, love for both of you to say a little bit more about your work in the world. Uh, I love so much that Taran. You are a, now, are you a doctor of Chinese medicine? Like how do you describe your work? Taran: Uh, I am not a doctor. I have a. This gets into like a whole thing about different kinds of licensure. Well, the licensure is pretty simple, but there's a bunch of weird degrees for Chinese medicine. Suffice it to say that what I have is essentially. A master's degree in Chinese medicine, but in my case, it's specifically focused on acupuncture. So you can also have one of those master's level degrees. That includes herbs. I went to a graduate program that focused. Entirely on acupuncture and a little bit of , which is also something that I do a lot of, which is sometimes talked about as Chinese medical massage. I think my favorite description of it is Chinese cranial osteopathy. Um, cause I think that gets a little more at the way that Twain is. I mean, there are techniques that are kind of massaging, but it's really more a matter of using the Chinese medical paradigm as a lens through which to look. Uh, patient at the environment at reality, and then using the hands, right? Like acupuncture. We use the needle as the primary modal interface for inviting the possibility of change. And with Twain on the hand, the hand is an expression of the entire body, but it's, it is it's manual medicine, right? Like quite literally, I'm using my hands to invite change in the system. And those are the two primary ways that I interface with patients, but there's a bunch of other modalities. And, you know, I think what's more important than the modality is the way that we're understanding. The universe to work, right. And that understanding of the universe, which for Lucas and I comes out of what we would call a classical orientation. So these, this set of two texts that are called the Neijing, just the, the inner classic has a particular cosmological frame that it works within. And then from that understanding of cosmology things kind of get resonantly. Downshifted into terrestrial manifestations. And then we look at the way that the cosmological and the terrestrial interact. And largely we look at that through, you know, what often it's called the Chicho, which is basically the place where people live and by people in this case, I mean, all, all the peoples, all the persons, right. Animate and inanimate, um, because all of those. Relations and contexts are unfolding and it play. And then we focus at least in, you know, for both Lucas and I, we focus on working with the human people part of that equation, but those human people are still in this really beautifully, complex, broader relational context, which is super important in this medicine. And depending on how you orient, you might focus more on the. The seasonal cycles or food or herbs, which are really kind of the same thing, just on a continuum or you might focus on the unseen. But ideally what I would say is that we really try to, um, develop that understanding of the possibility space and work with whatever aspect is going to be most useful for the person who's come seeking support. You know, and we're really there, uh, to be of service to that process and to recognize that we are midwives, custodians, sometimes, maybe guides, but we're not, you know, we're not healers, we're not the one that's doing the healing. There's an inherent understanding in any living system. Of how to self-organize and express coherence. And we call that health or thriving and a human organism and in many other living systems. And so from my point of view, my role as a physician, and I use that term very broadly, right? Not as a Western medical physician, but as someone who works with the wellbeing of an individual, my role is to help that innate wisdom in their system. Express, because in some way it's not able to fully express or they wouldn't be in my office. Right. They're coming because there's something, I mean, every new patient I've ever seen is coming because something is wrong and it says in quotes wrong and it needs to be fixed. And generally, because a bunch of other opportunities, uh, have not successfully helped them navigate the, fixing it now. I wouldn't pathologize it. I don't think that people show up with things that are wrong. I do think people show up with pain, which I totally am sympathetic to why that seems problematic, but really what's happening from my point of view is that they're being as communicating what it has been and is learning. And that if we can be present enough with the communication, with the story that is being told from all of the different aspects of that being verbal non-verbal, uh, you know, things that we discover through palpation and observation that we can then offer back to the system based on what it's saying, it needs a message or a story. That will help it take the next step in coming back into coherence and being able to express that innate wisdom faculty so that it comes back into a more harmonious resonant. And expresses its health and thriving. Lukas: I love the way you say that Taran, because you always have this way of first of all, beautiful words and I don't have to add anything to that if I don't want to, but you always have a respect for the adaptation. And I really appreciate that because the more I dive into this. The more I'm in the clinic, the more I'm practicing, the more I'm seeing, like maybe I do identify that there's this pattern over here. There's a, there's a stagnation over here. There's a problem here causing pain. And then there's a, an adapt and adaptive pattern causing blockage and stagnation here, which is causing pain. But this is the body is adaptation to whatever influences that they may understand. And they may have reported to me, but they might. They may not know why that, why they've gotten to that point. And the bodies in inherent intelligence has decided that this is the way that we have to maintain in order to function. And so to just release it all may seem like textbook. That sounds like a good idea. But if I do that, I may unearth a lot of things. They're not ready to face. I may cause disruption in the body. I may cause. Basically like chopping the legs off the scaffolding. So th the support system for function is now gone. So I actually may do them harm. So having respect for the adaptation governed by the body's inherent intelligence is really important. And, and I don't think a lot of practitioners it see it like that. And maybe luckily they don't get into a lot of trouble because they don't treat it all at once. Or if they do. Maybe their patients adapt. Well, I don't know, but the more I practice, the more I'm like that is really important. It's not unlike, you know, somebody has an incredible trauma physical or, or emotional trauma in their life and you just go right to the core and have them like face it and like visualize it and like be in that space. Like right now you're like, oh, it just happened. I don't, I can't do that. Or even if it's 20 years ago, it doesn't matter. You know, maybe they're not ready. Peel off, like pull out the stitches, you know, like you have to come at it. And this is why I appreciate a lot of the way turn practices. You have to communicate on a different level with your patients and stuff. And maybe even that create the within the clinical space space, which is a space between patient and practitioner within that space find where you're allowed to go, where you're invited to go. And then when you enter in that space, okay, let's navigate. What's. Taran: Right and track to, right. Like while you're there. So maybe there is, it feels like there's an invitation. It feels like there's a welcome and you enter in and then like you start to see a level of reactivity in the system and it's important then like to be. In this collaborative and co-creative relationship, because I feel like while there's lots of things we can know to a degree that from my orientation, fundamentally, we live in a very mysterious universe. And even the things that we think that we can know. Aren't really the way that we think we know them. And so it's important to really, if you want to practice, I mean, probably anything, but certainly if you want to practice medicine study is super important. And, you know, compared to our colleagues who are scholars, like I don't even rank with where that goes because we have some pretty amazingly brilliant and a well-developed. Scholastic colleagues, however, still daily study and a variety of ways, both in terms of intellectual and cognitive information. And also what I feel like is even more important is study of this thing that I call a self. Right. And how did these different movements that we've been talking about and patterns and resonance relationships? How do I experience that right in this life, in this body and how do I experience it with enough? Resolution and my perceptual apparatus that I can actually, even if I don't fully understand what I'm reading in my relationship with someone who's seeking care, I can kind of like have a qualitative. Understanding. So as I enter into a space where like things start to feel like they're, they were really in resonance and then they start to like decouple and decohere that I'm sensitive enough to that, that I can use that as information that allows me to, I mean, maybe just be like, okay, we need to just chill out or find how to surf that edge, that way of that liminal space so that we stay in the range of what the system can actually. Navigate right. As opposed to trying to push it to do something that we think it ought to do as Lucas was touching on because this textbook or that classical text or this brilliant teacher, you know, or the person themselves said, this is what I want. It's like, okay, great. But we also have to be in what's real. And in this case, what I mean by that is staying in relationship. Monica: Relational medicine. Taran: Exactly. It is fundamentally relational and processual right. And so we have to like, Get really comfortable being in the uncomfortability of indeterminacy, not just uncertainty, but like not knowing and being able to roll with that. Monica: Yeah. I L I love that. And I want to also acknowledge what Lucas did. You have, just a beautiful way of describing and articulating. I get so many visuals when both of you speak and. You know, what it brings up for me is I'm so curious, you know, how does this practice, how does this practice incorporate and integrate with what you're seeing in the Western medical world. And that is I'm sure a whole nother episode. And I would just love to orient our listeners a little bit in relation to how the world view of Chinese medicine. Would start orienting us if we ever to get curious about a different perspective. Lukas: Well, let me just say that. I think a lot of people are seeking a different orientation already, but don't know about Chinese medicine or east Asian medicine and that such a problem. Um, so some of that falls on our shoulders, you know, I think we as a. Uh, field, could you a little bit more community outreach, I guess, but it does, it is a bit top down, you know? Has a lot to do with ma'am. I mean, this, it's hard to talk about that. Like what exactly the origin of it is necessarily. Monica: And I want to say, are we also being careful to bowl inside the bumpers Lukas: A little, but I don't because I don't want to get into a Western bash. Do you know? Cause it's not really about that. There's a lot of great things that Western medicine can. But I think that we're trapped in a mindset and in a, in a Western kind of mindset and it's very limited and that's dangerous. One that doesn't, that doesn't allow for imagination or doesn't uses statistics more than, or over personal experience or subjective information Taran: Worships in the temple of quantitative and an objectivist materialist orientation. Yeah. To experience in reality. Lukas: Sure. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Because one of the main things I do in my clinic, my practices, when people come with their, you know, folder of, um, Western reports and things, or say they just got a new. Test of some kind. I try to couch it for them. Try to, because I'm, I'm their advocate. I want every patient that comes to see me too. I want to bolster them up and to help their self-confidence. And so that they feel like they are their primary care physician. Right. So they are the ones who have to gather all the information, condense it and digest. Along with all the information of their subjective information and sometimes, you know, put the results of the tests, the results of what I'm telling them feel through that space. It does that resonate with what they're experiencing and then make a decision what to utilize. Because it's not my place to say that like, even my assessment is necessarily accurate. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not hearing them. Right. And that's fine. That's why it's a practice. But I'm also very clear with them about that. Like, do you think I'm hearing. Um, does that sound right to you? I always say, does that make any sense? You know, and it's possibly a little bit discrediting of my, of my cloud as a professional, because I should be wearing a lab coat and saying, this is how it is, you know, but like, that's not me. I am, I realized that I'm in a practice and that this is a lifelong pursuit. About eight years into practicing. And I I'm like just beginning now. I feel like I've made a lot of steps, but at the same time, talk to me after 30 years and see if I feel like, you know, I have a decent handle on this, but yeah, I think that's incredibly important. And I don't know that I'm hoping. And I think I have experienced a bit more of this, that of Western doctors understanding their place in the whole spectrum of medical modality. Um, understanding their limitations, the same as me and seeing what their strengths are and offering that as, you know, an option for them to choose the patient. You know, so if I find that their cholesterol is super high, they have a history of high cholesterol. G and a family history of high cholesterol and they fall within this statistics and the statistics are based on this, you know, like it's just giving them all the, all the, all the very important, very specific information about within their framework. I think that's the best you can. From their perspective and then saying like, these are my tools and this is what could happen and choose it or dont. And there are these other options I've heard that are quite good, blah, blah, blah. You know? Right, Monica: Right. It's it's uh, there's I think I shared with you both that. You know, my daughter is currently ill with the flu, right. And it, we were talking earlier too, about how we grew up and all of the various distractions and all of the various ways that we're in culturated health being. Way in the Western world, you know, and, and I often look through this lens of like, where do we give our power away? Where do we give our agency away? Where do we stop? Knowing that we are sovereign beings able to. Capable of, you know, viewing all aspects of our world through this lens of ecosystem and understanding from my perspective as a parent, There's a time and a place for Western, and there's a time and a place for Eastern. And knowing that those modalities and energy work and Reiki, and like just all of these options available in my wellness, in my thriving toolbag. Anyway, I wanted your permission to read you something that I ended up writing last night as I was sitting with my daughter, because as I was with her in her fever state, She was like, mom, will you tell me a story? You know? And I got to tell her stories about my childhood. And then I got to read to her Alice in Wonderland. That was a book from her grandfather's library and she's she's 19, you know? So it was like, here we were in this fever. She's so ill. And it's like, This opportunity, this disguised gift to really be with her in this way, but it also brought up all of these other elements. So without saying more, I'll just read this. Sometimes we have to go through transformations that are uncomfortable and challenging. Sometimes we have to stand by while someone we love is going through a transformation that's uncomfortable and challenging. I wonder what the caterpillar thought when she started to consume everything in sight before wrapping herself into the darkness where she started to dissolve becoming the nutritive. For who she would become, perhaps we all have imaginal cells inside of us that know the way, even when we have lost our way, if the body holds the wisdom, then so too, does the body's path to healing? Must. We always override our body's intelligence. When the body encounters a pathogen, a bacteria, a foreign invader, it rushes to interpret, integrate and assimilate. We don't always need to wage war on experiences that are foreign to. Do we. We don't have to keep expressing these CA these encounters as battles, or as winning the war against or mounting an attack upon, nor do we have to approach these encounters with fear. What if instead, like the caterpillar, we wrapped ourselves in the darkness and trusted the body to show us its way. What if, instead of trying to control the outcome, we instead trusted the process, perhaps what we would find. Is that when we lean into the darkness, she's always there to create a less in her arms or rubber aching head, or to tell us a new story. Perhaps there are disguised gifts laying dormant inside of these dark places that like imaginal cells offer us a transformation we had never before imagined was possible. When we are we're standing on the other side of it, judging it or fearing it, perhaps it would be wise for us to consider taking advice from a caterpillar once in awhile. But the chapter that I had been reading her was advice from a caterpillar. Yeah. And it, it, it just thanks for letting me read it because it feels so potent for me right now. And as you are both speaking, it's just really interesting. Cause I know in our, in our episode, on your podcast, we were kind of talking about this dark night of the soul and there's such a way that I think. Our wellness is that indicator is that the telemetry of the body that tells us, you know, like I can't do this this way anymore. And that seeks kind of like you at age eight, right. There's gotta be another way. Right. And just really looking for those people that might be able to offer. Another way, another perspective. And that there's so many, like you said, that there's so many ways that I think we have yet to discover, but there's, I don't know. Again, I think there's so many themes here. We keep talking about, you know, bowling inside the bumpers. And I think we're so at this shift and there's so much that started making sense to me in such a deeper way. When I started to experience what acupuncture Chinese medicine, those different perspectives had to offer me. There was so much nourishment and healing that came even from seeing a different perspective and understanding, um, how Chinese medicine orients. And I know there's different types, right. But it's such a powerful modality for. Understanding so much, so many things. Taran: Yeah. And you know that one of the things, well, let me take it back at least one, maybe two steps. So first I love. Piece of writing that you shared with us. And since we don't have video, maybe on this recording, and I don't know if you can hear it in my voice, but like I was totally tearing up because it was just speaking to me on so many levels and bringing together so many of these threads, right. That we've had in this conversation in our prior conversation and in some email exchanges. So like, it's, it's really, it's always wonderful when something arises like out of. You know, the mysterious soup and somehow like seems to have all of it. Like all of the, all of the different elements of the super threads of the tapestry that are most available, like somehow are for me are evoked if not named by what you just read. So thank you for that. And I, you know, I think one of the things that continually. Moves me and kind of blows my mind and opens my heart about the practice of Chinese medicine. At least as I understand it, right, is that I had this opportunity to work with all these different kinds of folks from all these different walks of life, some of whom would be considered, you know, folks that didn't need the bumpers or want the bumpers on their lane for their. Bowling game some who have really clearly delineated bumpers. And aren't interested in even discussing the fact that there are bumpers there and everything in between, but more often than not irrespective of where somebody is within that framework, they come in and most people thankfully get better. And seem to have this kind of understanding for what we're doing. And at some point say something like, wow, this just makes so much sense. And my response to that mostly, and you know, some variation of this particular theme is like, yeah, you know, people often think of Chinese medicine as being something esoteric or a cult, but really if you've ever observed the cycle of seasons in the natural world, you are. Innately and inherently no Chinese medicine. Cause that's really what we're talking about. Right. We're just talking about these natural rhythms and if we can understand what they look like when they're in harmony, then maybe we understand how to communicate that to the system when it's not expressing harmony so that it can remember how to do that. And it, it can be, we can talk about it with more complex language and it's certainly like treating various kinds of situations. Some are extremely challenging, but I feel like at the heart, for me, it is literally that simple, you know, the universe has a fundamental tendency to breathe and that breath motion looks like a lot of different things at a lot of different levels, but mostly it looks like the cycle of the season. Expressed out through all of these different aspects of personhood. Monica: Yeah. Lucas, anything you want to add? Lukas: No, just that. I hope that more people inquire into that space that, you know, in to your question about, you know, Western medicine, I think we're the. Because Western medicine is, is separated from that. It's, it doesn't work on any level of relating to that, I think will inherently come up against a lot of issues you will have as, uh, violent, negative reactions as you'll have positive reactions, because it's not respecting that space. And that's not to say that, you know, Within our modality. If you treat in opposition to the natural order, you're not going to have just as violent reactions to, but I just think that the more we can get back to understanding our relationship with natural cycles, the better. Touch us back to giving people agency. It also, um, helps put in perspective how everyone's life feels so crazy right now. You know, if we just simply observe that amazing natural phenomenon that immediately crowns. And connects us with that takes us out of our heads, puts us back into a resonance with the earth and starts to heal us already. Like, so maybe your headache goes away. Maybe your anxiety just goes away. Do you know? So a lot of the things that people are feeling that, that have to do with, you know, being stuck in your Headspace really. Well, all that stuff starts to go away pretty naturally. And the more you sink with that, the more those things fade away. So you don't necessarily even need medical intervention, Monica: You know? Right. Right. And, and that's where I come back to that word that you both used, which is coherence, right? It's like that place where we are, you know, vibrating in harmony with that, which is supporting and surrounding. And this is right at the moment I lost internet connectivity and was unable to finish the show. Dear listeners. So sorry about that. And, um, although I didn't get a chance to formally. Thank Lucas and Taran. I just wanted to offer my thanks. My deep, deep thanks and gratitude for this epic conversation. I found it to be, all the things entertaining and insightful and revealing and heart expanding. I just, I loved speaking to both of you. And for our listeners, we'll make sure to put links in the show notes that you can follow up and be sure to listen to their podcast, which is called Apricots Jam. And until next time more to be revealed. We hope you enjoyed this episode for more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.