107_Nicole Lewis-Keeber === Nicole: One of the most important things that I learned in starting this business and working with people who were business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders, is that the majority of people were walking around with unresolved childhood trauma. Because they didn't know the experiences that they had, they had were actual trauma or actually traumatic, or their, their bodies had responded to it as a trauma because they grew up in a time or an era or in a family where they were dismissed. It was minimized, it was normalized. They were gaslit about it. And so it doesn't always have to be a big huge catastrophic event. The smaller experiences of being unseen, unheard uncared for in ways that we don't always recognize is trauma can have a huge impact on us as adults. So I spent a lot of time trying to explain and educate that. Big T trauma is what we tend to look at as a society. === Monica: Welcome to The Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed. It gets healed. Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode The Revelation Project Podcast today I'm with Nicole Lewis, Keeber. Nicole is a business therapist and a mindset coach who works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their businesses. She's a licensed clinical social worker with a master's in social work and a rich varied experience. As a therapist certified in Brenee Brown's dare to lead methodology. She's also been featured on numerous media outlets, including Fast Company and NPR for her work in breaking the stigma of mental health and business ownership. She writes and speaks about the impact of small T trauma on businesses. But her biggest, most important work is in combining therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs build emotionally sustainable and financially successful. Businesses. She lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania in the U S with her husband and two fat happy cats. Welcome Nicole. Nicole: Thank you for having me. Monica: And how are those fat happy cats? Are they still fat? Nicole: Yes. They're actually laying outside of my office door right now, very disgruntled because they can't come in. Monica: Too bad.. I had a great episode with these two guys recently, and there was a cat that kept meowing in the background. And you could tell from his face that he was just like, O M G, why will this cat not shut up right now? It was so hysterical. Nicole: Yes. That very well could happen. What typically happens is they meow at the door. They stick their foot underneath it, and then they start fighting with each other. For some reason I can't discern. So that could be, we could hear that today. Who knows. Monica: Who knows, who knows? It's always an adventure, so good. Well, yeah. So welcome. And I'm so glad you're here. I'm so thankful to Angela for introducing us. We finally made it happen. I knew that I was really, really interested in having you on board because of the subject matter. And I'd love to just start with your why, like your personal story and how you kind of got into this work. Nicole: So I would, the quick answer to my why, and then I'll kind of back up as to how I got here is that I was seeing a lot of entrepreneurs who were struggling with business owners who are struggling. And it was because they had unresolved trauma showing up in their business. And so my, why is your business may not succeed because you have a poor business model or maybe there's something else involved, but it will not be because trauma is running a muck and your business on my watch. Like, that's just my why period is it? Won't be because of that. Monica: And how, how might that look if somebody has. Uh, business and you're identifying like it's unresolved trauma. Like what does that look like? Nicole: Yeah. So there, you know, I started my, my career as a coach, as a money mindset coach. And, you know, so this will kind of like circle back on that and answer both of those questions is that I was beginning to see that my work with people who had, were coming to me with money, mindset, challenges, you know, there are businesses. It actually wasn't a money mindset issue. It was actually a money trauma issue. And so I started to see that, you know, all the mindset, tips and tricks that they were trying to bring on board were not working for them because they had underlying childhood trauma that was playing out in their, their money. So one way that it can show up for you is the relationship that you have with money in your business. And that can show up in, you know, pricing. Where you spend your money. If you don't spend your money to support yourself and your business. Yeah, writing a proposal and then taking a zero off before you even talked to the person, because you feel some energy around that. Monica: Yeah. That makes so much sense. Nicole: One way it can show up in your, in your business is through money. I wrote a book, uh, that published last spring called How to Love your Business, where I outline how our relationship with our business can be impacted by that there's experiences that we have as well. Whether we create a supportive and loving relationship with our business, or, um, if we create a demanding and demeaning relationship with our business that replicate some of those patterns. It's also a way it shows up and visibility. That's a huge one for a lot of people. So I've done a lot of research on this, um, and there's some very specific categories in which it comes up in and you know, those are just a couple, yeah. Monica: I, I of giggled at the last one visibility because I admitted to Nicole, right? When we hopped on about my. On visibility issues and that the podcast was actually like just such a great alternative, everybody. Do some lives. And I was like, I'd rather, you know, create a podcast, you know, it just felt, and even then, right, like it triggered so many visibility issues in me, but I know, and I know from my work that, of course it's from my childhood and that feeling of overexposure or being judged. And I am proud to say that. Step by step every time I stretch a little further, it's like, it's getting easier and easier, but it really is amazing how those childhood wounds continue to kind of call out for healing. Sometimes I'm like, wow, how can that still be here? Nicole: Yeah. I mean, what I've conversations I've had with a lot of people, including myself, is that. I thought I had that figured out, or I went to therapy. I thought that I healed that. And the thing is, is that when we started business, it's a high dive into personal development and it brings up all your stuff. And if it's a crisis, even though it's something we're interested in it, our nervous system still responds to it as if it's a crisis. And then what do we do in crises? We revert back to old patterns of coping or responding because our wisevmind goes offline. Right. So, and so, yeah, you could totally be completely thoroughly boundary in your personal life and completely further away in your business because it doesn't feel safe or you feel dependent upon your clients to say yes to pay you. Like there's a lot that works its way out and. Yeah. After being a therapist for 18 years before starting my own business. Now I've been pretty steeped in the exploration treatment and understanding of trauma and how it affects our nervous system. And one of the most important things that I learned in starting this business and working with people who were business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders, is that the majority of people were walking around with unresolved childhood trauma. Because they didn't know the experiences that they had, they had were actual trauma or actually traumatic, or their, their bodies had responded to it as a trauma because they grew up in a time or an era or in a family where they were dismissed. It was minimized, it was normalized. They were gaslit about it. And so it doesn't always have to be a big huge catastrophic event. The smaller experiences of being unseen, unheard uncared for in ways that we don't always recognize is trauma can have a huge impact on us as adults. So I spent a lot of time trying to explain and educate that. Big T trauma is what we tend to look at as a society. And that's the only category that only way that we define trauma, typically as a society, as big T trauma, it's like violence for PTSD or catastrophic has been maybe the natural disaster. You know, these big life-changing fast moving experiences. But there's also something called little T your small T, which these are these cumulative events that we have that are smaller in nature. Someone else might not look at it as traumatic, but you experienced it as traumatic. And those over time change how we see ourselves with available to ourselves, how we value ourselves. And it can be anything from having a learning difference. Like I did growing up, you know, going to school every day and not having people know how to teach me and me internalizing all of that. If that's not trauma, I don't know what it do because that impacts me as an adult. So I spend a lot of time educating. I always say big T trauma explodes, small T trauma erodes, but they're both strong enough to move a mountain. You know, we can blow up a mountain with T and T or it can be eroded over time by water. And both of them are powerful enough to move it. Monica: Oh, gosh, I love that expression. You know, what you just said is so true about the explode or the erode. It's like, wow, I'm just sitting with that for a second because it's like, and I felt myself when you were explaining your learning differences, getting emotional, because you know how sometimes until somebody puts voice to your experience. Again, you don't think, I mean, this is exactly what you're talking about. You don't think it's a big deal now. I knew it was a big deal. Then, and when I finally was diagnosed with add, I knew it was a big deal, but there's still a lot of stuff that comes up that is still like, when you talked just now about having a learning difference and teachers didn't know how to teach you. And I had this experience as well, where. It was literally like every message was, you know, like underneath the message, the erosion was I'm stupid. Uh, there's something wrong with me. I'm not worthy, you know? And that over time, I remember really believing that by the time I went to college that I should probably just major in English because at least I can read. Like that was my big dream for myself. Like was, was low, barring my capabilities in order to make, not only my family proud that I could do it because I was still seeking that affirmation. But also for me, like, I really believed, like at least I can read. And the interesting thing is. I, it took me the longest time Nicole, to realize that I had a different kind of intelligence and that I'm wildly intelligent. Like it took me so long to claim that, to own that, to step into that, to believe that, and that when you bring the. When you reveal that trauma and you feel that trauma, you can then heal that trauma. And those are those little things. We call them little T traumas and oh, holy cow. You're right. They do just as much damage to the person as. The big T trauma in different ways. Nicole: Yeah. And honestly, I think it's more my just own personal. This is my opinion is that I think it's more erosive and it is more catastrophic because typically with big T traumatic events, They're an instantaneous one time and we work on repairing from them. These are cumulative. These literally change how we see ourselves is literally change our personality. What, you know, what we feel is available to us, how the world feeds us over time. And it is such an unlayering that has to happen in a way that I think big T trauma doesn't always happen. Now. There are extreme examples like abuse and violence. Of course, of course, of course. But I've always said that I think that these little T traumas that we have in our childhood, they get overlooked and dismissed. And oftentimes we're told it's not true that those are the runway for bigger T traumas that can happen to us because it's eroded our self-confidence or sense of self, and we're constantly externalizing our value. Um, in so many ways. And so I can say it to you. My learning difference as a child absolutely was a traumatic experience. It changed everything and it completely impacts myself sense of self as an adult in my business. And I've had to unwrap that the clients who had trouble making friends, or maybe they got her into fight as a child too early, because they had a parent who was ill moved around a lot. Maybe he got bullied in the school, you know, and the school know. And maybe you were sick alive. These type of things. A lot of people will look at them, go, everybody had a bad childhood or elementary school stuff for everybody, you know, we get Smiths and those experiences of having your best friend not talk to you anymore when you're 12, for reasons that you don't know and can never figure out, can be catastrophic to someone's self sense of self and could give absolutely. There our relationship with our business as an adult, I see it happen every day, but we've been told that that's not trauma and you don't get to own that. You don't get the habit, explore it and heal from that experience. And so I said, that was why I said I spent so much time. I think educating that there are different ways that trauma shows up for us and that oftentimes they seem seemingly insignificant, but they were significant to you. Someone told you it wasn't. And so you have been walking around with it, not acknowledging it, and it is coming out sideways because that seven-year-old, that twelve-year-old inside you is still here. That seven-year-old that twelve-year-old inside you is still running your business. It's still doesn't feel smart or worthy. And so when you are making a decision about, do I give this talk? Do I write this book? That seven-year-old is gone? Are you kidding me? Don't ever remember that we are learning disabled is what it used to be. Just like, Monica: Whoa. Time out. Nicole: No title. Yeah. So I think that's often part of it. Yeah. Like Renee brown calls it the school for wayward girls inside her head. That she has to tap into when things get stressful or conflicted and either same here, you know, I always talk about your inner kiddo to CEO. Like you're, they're there because those experiences that someone told you wasn't trauma that you are still experiencing in your nervous system is trauma is with you present in the room. And that we talk about this board of directors like your, your conference room they're there. Monica: Two things I wanted to bring up. One was, yeah, we were talking about earlier kind of like something about who's running the show. Right. And we come out of our wisdom or our Sage and into the saboteurs. Right. And that's kind of that board of directors. We can, we have different ways of, I think, visualizing, but it was, it was great. I was actually talking to my husband last night because he was anxious. You know, and I was like, what's going on? And he's like, I don't know. I don't know why I'm anxious. And I'm like, all right, can you tune in to like, who's in charge right now? You know, like who's running the show in there and he's like, you know, I think, I think it's like the list, the list checker, you know, It's so funny because as soon as he started to identify that his show was getting run by one of those saboteurs, he started to kind of settle down. But it's so helpful when we have some of these tools to remember. The other thing I wanted to bring up is I find it fascinating that you know, the ACEs too high. The assessment and I would consider those big T traumas. So, and for our listeners, I just want to say that there is a adverse childhood experience test that you can take on a website called ACEs too high. And it was so illuminating and revealing for me because. When you answer the whatever 10 questions you then get a score. And I was fascinated to find out that I was a seven. I think we're an eight in on a scale of 10 and those were big T traumas. And that had to do with divorce. Did I have a mentally ill parent? Did I have alcoholism in the house? Was I ever hit. So, but what I think is really interesting about what you're talking about is there's no assessment for small T trauma. And when we consider the impact of both, because everybody has small T trauma. And what we're saying here is like small T trauma is often, sometimes more insidious. Because we don't see it as trauma. And so it's kind of like the invisible it's like the elephant that never gets discovered in the room. Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And what I find interesting and I have over the years, this. And, you know, as therapists, we've known about Aces for a long time, and I think it's still become, there's an awareness building about it in the community at large. And it's taken about 20 years for even the community to pay attention to ACEs is that there are people walking around with eight, nine tens who still don't think it's trauma. Because of the way that they've been socialized and conditioned and the systems around them don't support that those things are not just everybody has that, you know, so what I've seen over time is that there's people walking around with high scores for ACEs, that they still don't even recognize that as trauma. There and when I've done retreats with people and we've talked about this, they're like, yeah, I, you know, I probably have some small T trauma and they start to talk about it. And the reality is the thing that they are minimizing as being small T is actually a large T big T trauma. Yeah. Because we have been so unable to explore it, talk about it, get healing from it. Um, it's just not been available to us. So that's why I love ACEs. Monica: I added two. Um, what happens when we stop minimizing these experiences? Nicole: I think that first of all, what it does for us internally is that our nervous system met. Right because your nervous system knows it's trauma and it's screaming that it's trauma it's reacting to this trauma is adapting because it's trauma. So we get met in a way where there is finally some recognition and some space for ourselves, our nervous system, our experience to be met with openness. I love that. So that's an, a very important piece of it is that. The other thing is that, and what was the question again? I am already like on to the next thing in my head about the systems around us that Monica: no, no, Nicole: I have to change if, if it's acknowledged Monica: It's great. Well, I was saying what happens if we stop minimizing, right. And you said, we get met. Like I call that like the inner witness shows up the inner witness. That, which to me is a form of learning. Proper self-love is when we can actually take that inner child, that wounded inner child into our arms and open our heart to that inner child. And that was something that I had a really, I would scoff. I was like the big eyeball roller. I was so cynical about all that inner child bullshit, you know? So resistant and I couldn't see it for the longest time. I was just like, I would cringe, you know, every time, like there was some part of me that just felt so, uh, I don't even know the word for it. It was like, I, I was, well it's I think one, it was denial, but two, it was. I think I had some big story about like, if I became a victim and I will never forget a therapist that I was working with, she was a wise woman and she was like, Why are you so afraid of stepping into the victim for a minute? You don't have to stay there, you know, and it allowed me that opening to just try it on for a minute. It didn't mean that I was going to be in the victim mentality, but in that space, like you're talking about where I met myself, where I was able to be the witness to myself, where I was able to offer myself for heaven, sakes, some compassion for what I dealt with. As a kid, it's just like, it's so heart expanding. Yeah. You know, later, you know, because at first it's kind of horrifying. To look at, to be with Nicole: It totally is. And we get to shed some of those identities and we get to really look like, is this even mine, you know, is this even mine and so much about what we stopped minimizing? This is that it has a ripple effect in that other people can start to recognize a case I've been sitting with us and this is not even mine. This is not even a true representation of my intelligence. We'll talk about the learning difference. I'm not dumb. I have a master's degree. Like it's obvious, you know, Considered, you know, a thought leader, an expert in intersection of trauma and entrepreneurship. I am not a dummy, right. And my younger versions of myself are coming to terms with that reality very quickly. Um, but what this also requires is that when we stop minimizing this, the systems that are around us that reinforce it and benefit from these traumatic identities and the way that we see ourselves and would have been okay. Too steep ourselves in as children, those have to change and they are not interested in a lot of times, so changing. Monica: So, oh, there's a subject. Nicole: Oh yeah. Monica: Right. Nicole: It's not just you. Monica: Well, okay. Because let's talk about that. Remember how we set some space beforehand and you were like, you know, if something comes up, I won't, I'm finding myself being like careful and I, and I don't want to be okay. So I'm going to give myself permission here. Consent is a big deal to you and informed consent. And I find that if. If it's true, that so many of us are traumatized. And we don't actually know our rights and we don't know that the system is benefiting from our trauma, and then we're going to make decisions for ourselves and our bodies and our lives. That actually, if we were informed, if we were not traumatized, if we did have a deeper understanding, as well as. Uh, relationship to our nervous system into our body. We would not make the decisions that we are making. It's true. It's true. Yeah. I find that a lot of people right now are super confused or, but think they're clear and are giving up their agency, giving over their agency to. Medical procedures, let me call them that. So I'd love to just hear what you know, and if it's an informed choice. Awesome. That's not my conversation here. My, the thing that I get really, really stimulated and activated about is exactly what we're talking about, which is this unrevealed trauma, which then has us make. Decisions from actually like more of a codependency place versus an informed sovereign place. Nicole: So. I think, and because we're using general terms, I'm going to just generalize it and say that I believe that we can, we can make decisions from a codependent place. That makes sense to us in the moment with the information that we have, and that provides a path forward where we feel safe. And that that is valid. Because safety reveals itself. The more that we, the more that we work on these things, and I see people who beat themselves up a lot for making decisions that, uh, so could have been in that relationship, or I wish I had known better done better, and that there's a lot of forgiveness and compassion available to us. When we say I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. And I'm not going to pile on to myself around this. Because a lot of the decisions that we make at the time they are. The one available there. The one that helps us feel like we are our nervous system is like it's survival. Yeah. And there's a lot of maladaptive they'll call it maladaptive trauma adaptations that we have experienced in our lives as children and as adults that served us in that moment that may later not be something that we would choose. And that's also okay. Monica: Yeah. And I, and I, I completely. Love love that from the, from the perspective of, of, let's say the one who is, I don't even know what to call it. Right. Making a decision from that place only to then kind of do the healing work and to look back and be like, ah, why did I do that? And knowing and trusting that that is exactly what was needed at that time, because I, to believe, you know, I'm, I always say yes to the mess and that includes everything. And, and it is about finding compassion for ourselves. Like no matter what, and we do, I think do the best we can at any given time. So what about the perpetrator? What do you think as it relates to kind of some of these systems that benefit from these traumatized. States. Nicole: Yeah. So, you know, one of the most immediate systems that benefit from our traumatized states are our families. You know, just to say it that if we name our experiences in our families, as people who are seeking healing, it often puts us in an oppositional place where someone does try to put. A label on you as victim problem maker. Um, instead of the very first systems that we come in contact with our family systems, which are heavily influenced by things like politics, religion, geographic location, you know, all right. All of our identities and whether they are allowed to be okay in the world or not. Right. Generational trauma, all these things come into this immediate system that we're in. And so when we start to heal and we start to look at these and name, our experiences as trauma, that then requires that system to react to us and it can be really challenging. So. Family systems are very slow to change. School systems are slow to change. They benefit from everyone being uniformed they'd benefit from everyone being compliant. Our families benefit from everyone doing what they're told, not having a different experience, you know, identifying in a different way. And so that's what I mean when I say, you know, the systems around us. You know, they also are required. It requires some change on their part. Whenever we start to do this, and this is why it's minimized, this is why it's not talked about because systems are flipped are slow to change. And then we get stuck in this place of, I want to heal. I don't want to carry this trauma around with me. I don't want to be as codependent relationship. I don't want to be in this relationship. That's toxic. I don't want to. Comply with a school system that thinks that all children should be able to sit quietly in their chairs for what seven hours a day. That that's the reality and the truth of what it means to be educated, because that's not true. Can you can be educated in a lot of ways, and it'd be very wonderful, but if you, but the system needs us to be compliant with that, you know, in order for it to run. So this was why I was trying to tell people I might live. You have agency over you when it comes to consent, you know, when it comes to, and I talk a lot about this with business owners, that consent, whether you say yes to a client or not, don't let that money hanging out there in front of you, be the determining factor boundaries on your time, giving, you know, trigger alerts, you know, on hard topics for your audience when your podcast or writing things, you know, we need to give the people around us. As well as to whether they feel that they can safely participate in the conversation. So I think it kind of goes both ways. So what do we do with the perpetrators? I think that we have less power about the, that than we do ourselves. So I always ask people, focus on you. And building that muscle and that belief in yourself as someone who is powerful, someone who knows themselves and the rest of it is a little bit less influential on you. Monica: Yeah. I love that. It's like, it's almost like the more we fill ourselves, the shrinkage happens in the other realm because it its power dwindles over us. Nicole: If less relevant, it doesn't have the same pool. It doesn't have the same presence. It doesn't have the same charge around it. In fact, a lot of times it just absolutely loses any ability to get our attention. Monica: Yeah, it sure does. Nicole: And it goes from it's no longer a perpetrator. It is just something out there that I am not involved with or someone out there that I don't have a relationship with. Monica: Right. Well, it's true because there's a way, I think couple of things come up for me that a lot of people feel that they have no choice and there's always a choice. Oh, yeah. All the ways a choice, you know, and it forces us. We're not going to participate. If we're not going to consent. It actually forces us to get real intimate with trusting ourselves, to find the way. And the reason I love this structure of the revelation project is because I don't need to know the next step. That's when I get really. Trusting. And I, and I ask for the next step to be revealed, you know, like I tend to have a very kind of co-creative relationship with the universe, or some people would call that God or goddess or right. Like, whatever you want to call it. I believe that there is an energy that we're constantly in creation with that is always benevolent and has our back. And so it just, it brings. I think what it, what it brings to life for me is this whole other world of choices that I, that I don't realize I have until I start choosing otherwise, until I realized I have a choice and then start choosing otherwise. Nicole: And I always, I would say to someone else has to agree with your choice, then you need to circle back on yourself. Monica: Right. Cause nobody has to agree with our. No, nobody Nicole: We have to. Yeah. We have to know where it's coming from, where it's informed by. And if it, if it matters to other people that your choice, if that matters, and again, I'm speaking in general terms around trauma, if that matters, then you're not quite, as far as you thought you were like, it's time to circle back on yourself. Why do I believe this? Why is this choice important to me? What information am I working from? What assumptions am I making about it that I'm willing to own? And that I can. Can I, 100% say like, this is my choice. And if I need you to agree with it, then I need to take another look at me. Monica: So, so Nicole, where, like, I know that. You have a book that is largely about How to Love your Business. Yeah. And I mean, that's the title of it. Yeah. And I wondered if like you could spend maybe the rest of the time that we have together or some of it talking about how you. Entrepreneurs to be more trauma conscious and like what's available. Like if we have listeners today who are tuning in, who are entrepreneurs than this may be really useful. Nicole: Sure. So we've done a lot of the pre-work and talking about like what trauma is and the fact that many of us, you know, I don't, I don't not met anybody yet that it didn't least have some small T trauma. So in most people I've met have had some form of, of big T trauma. Like they have a score on ACEs, like it is a thing. So the first thing is to kind of educate about what that is for you. And then taking a look at. Okay. So when I acknowledged that the experiences that I had that I just thought were no big deal, but I really still do feel like I might be suffering a bit from, and the choices I make as an adult decisions, the need, the relationship patterns that I have. Um, how could those be impacting my business? And so we kind of look, we identify what trauma is and the fact that it does impact your business. I had to convince people that a lot, that we don't drop our baggage at the door. We started business. We all of who we are into it. All of our skills, talent experiences, all of it comes right in there with us. And then we build a foundation of our business based upon some of those things. And so when we can get really clear about, you know, what some of those experiences are and how they might be impacting your businesses, some of those categories of like money or visibility or. You know, the boundaries that you have for yourself that we're able to kind of look at. Okay. So what relationship do I have with my business? Because I say that when you start a business, you enter into a relationship because you are not your business. You know, it, if something outside of you that you are relating to, and as you mentioned, co-creating earlier, like it is a relationship that you are forming. And if we don't know that, what do we do? We default into old patterns and behaviors. And so we can default into old relationship and toxic patterns within our business. And so I asked people to identify, okay, what if your business was a person. Or maybe an entity. What relationship do you have with it now? If you could have. Tell me how it feels, what does it look like and where, and if it's not serving you and it doesn't feel like it's loving and supportive and it feels more like it's just driving you and just can't do anything right. Where have you felt that way before? Yeah, identify kind of the relationship dynamic you have now, so that you can set an intentional relationship to move in towards so that your business can support you. You are not your business. It is an entity and it's something, an energy outside of yourself that wants to support you. And wants to partner with you to do whatever it is that you want to do in the world. And so when we can, I can help people become more trauma conscious about how it might be impacting themselves and then how it might be playing out with their relationships, with their employees or their clients. Um, are you P are you people pleasing? Are you. More dependent. Like how, how does it look like for you then we can begin to change that dynamic. And not only can you do less harm to yourself because I don't want your business to be a mechanism of self abuse. And I see people do that every day. Your business becomes a way that you abuse yourself. Monica: I'm raising my hand because it took the name Nicole: The first story in the book. Monica: Oh good. Yeah, because I was going to say I'm raising my hand and what I want to say is. The awareness of that helps me so much because I can see when it starting, like when I'm starting to unconsciously. So let me, let me give you an example. And for our listeners too. Cause I think, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, well how does this play out in the world? So for me, it's like, if I, if I go back to my childhood and the fact that I thought I was stupid, then it would be true that I would think that nothing I do is ever enough or perfect enough. Exactly the curse or the perfectionism shows up in so many ways in my business that it's so, so the symptoms of it are I'm anxious to finish something. Uh, I leave a lot to the last minute and then I get really stressed out. And I think for a while I had this story that the adrenaline releasing would help me focus and that may be part of it. But the other part of it is that I have this avoidance thing that happens because. I'm having all of these unconscious thoughts about how hard this is going to be, how I'm not, I'm not equipped to do this or whatever the thing is. Right. So it's just fascinating when you start to really notice what those deeper reasons are. And I S cause I would have. Ever identified perfectionism as one of those symptoms. And then what happens is that. Suddenly like my I'm overwhelmed and I do feel like I don't know when to stop and nourish myself. And so I do end up oftentimes feeling depleted or overwhelmed versus now as time has gone on. I've started to organize my days differently. I've started to organize my weeks differently. I've started to really balance the amount of time I spend nurturing and filling myself and relaxing my nervous system. And then it's like, When I start from there, I'm just so an and I've even gone as far as to map it to the rhythm of my menstrual cycles. Right? Like you can take, you can take this to like any number of different degrees, but it's been really amazing how that has shifted and changed as I've really been more intentional about getting real honest about what the symptoms of. Nicole: Absolutely. You know, the way it looked for me was I never felt like I was finished and I never felt like anything I did in my business was enough. You know, it was, I was always striving that never arriving. Right. Cause I had a very contentious relationship with my own mother where nothing I did was good enough ever, ever, ever. Right. That relationship was set up for me to fail. And so what did I do? I created a business where the entity, the energy of my business was that mine. Oh my goodness. No matter what I did, no matter if my clients were doing well, I was bringing you good money. There was no evidence that you could get me to take in that I was not enough and doing enough in my business and that it was being successful because that was the dynamic. I set up with it, for it to be demanding and. Period. And when I recognized that I was able to change that, and what I've seen over time is basically it kind of looks like this, our motivation in our business. It starts with our motivation and a lot of people who are entrepreneurial and have their own business, usually have some childhood trauma experience that created that desire, that skillset to be entrepreneurial. So there's the why, right? The motivation then there's the relationship that we create with the business that we have and whether it could be supportive or really kind of, like I said, we can use ourselves with. And then we look at how has that trauma impacting ourselves and then how are we then projecting it out to the world, through our businesses, the relationships we have in them, the way that we treat our clients, the dynamics that we have in them and what we're putting out to others. So it's kind of the cycle of. Awareness in different stages of motivation relationship and then doing no harm to ourselves first, and then making sure that we're doing the least amount of harm as we can to the people, our emphasis as well. Um, Monica: I love that. I love that. And it's such a, it's really like, I love that you had started out as like a money minded. And then we had these realizations based on your own life. And it's it's, it makes so much sense. Like, when I think about how so much of my, again, unrevealed trauma was so much, it was like, it was like dragging my past into my future every day, without recognizing it without realizing it. And then what's available to us when we. I can bring some of these tools and some of the awareness to our business. And so. I've really been working on relating to my business, like a playmate. Right. It's and what does that look like and how does that play out? And what can I imagine from that place? And how does that then inform my spirit? When I go to actual. You know, get things done. And do I listen to myself now? Cause sometimes I do. And sometimes I don't, when my body's like, I really don't want to do this right now, but you know, and sometimes I can be like, you know what, then we're not going to do it because it's not fun right now. And I know it's not going to always be fun, but there are certain times where it's just, I just have to really check in and say is now really the time for this. Yeah. And there's only so many times you can get up and say like, Nope, I'm not going to address it today. I'm not going to address it today. And then there comes a time where you're like, okay, yeah. You know, how can I, how can I be in relationship with this task or this to do that can just bring more levity and whatever that then looks like. However we have to break it. Nicole: Yes, it's true. I have a friend who actually created a sticker for me that says it's not a mindset issue. It's a trauma response. Monica: Oh, I love that. Nicole: Cause I say that all day, every day, that's not a mindset issue. That's a trauma response. So you have to address the trauma before the mindset type technique or tool will help, um, we'll land, you know? So, um, So, you know, there's practicing there's moments of, okay. So I feel like I have to do this thing. Is that true? Is that even true? Is that real or is that some conditioning around being productive equals my value? You know, like it's unpacking this and like having that relationship with your business be more, more like a play companion. You know, it's a really great thing, a really good way to relate to that change some of those behaviors Monica: Completely. Well, I know that we're coming up on time here, so I just want to thank you. This has been such an amazing conversation. I have a feeling that you and I could probably have a few episodes and talk about a few different subjects. You've just been such a joy to talk to and so easy to talk to. I really, really appreciate it, Nicole. Thank you. And I would love for our live. To be able to find you. And so where would you love to, you know, invite them to learn more about you and your work? Yeah. So Nicole: my website's nicole.lewis-keeper.com. I will say that's probably the least updated place. You can find me though. All of us business owners in our websites. Right. So the. Accurate and up-to-date things will probably be on LinkedIn, which is Nicole, not LinkedIn, Instagram, Nicole, that Lewis keeper. And that's where I talk about, you know, what programs are coming up. We talk about my book and I just really love being there. So that's a really good place to follow me and my books on Amazon. It's called how to love your business. And it's getting a lot of good reviews and it's a really great place to start. If you're curious about this, Monica: I love it. Okay. Well, I am, I'm definitely more curious than ever now, and I haven't yet read the book, so I'm going to be sure to do that. And yeah. And thanks again. And for our listeners, I'll be sure to put all of Nicoles links in the show notes, and until next time more to be revealed, We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift subscribed to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for. Listening and as always more to be revealed.