102_Perdita Finn_Clark Strand === Clark: You know, Sophie once gave us a great image. We were working on the book because she was always around. She had a lot of thoughts and pain going back for her teenage years. And at one point she turned to us one day and she said, you know, the rosary is this stowaway and the whole of the Catholic church smuggled down centuries. Right? It's this devotion to the great mother. That's been basically smuggled a down. In the whole of the church but lately I've been thinking like, well, what was that? What did they smuggle? Those old grandmothers and everything. And I remembered, I've heard this from a number of different people, not from just one source people, you know, you talk to people about, well, you know, where did your people come from? Well, my grandmother came over on her own, right? Here's the thing, what they brought with them were seeds. They brought with them, the seeds for the food they knew how to cook and and for the plants, they knew how to raise from the country they were born in. And a lot of the plants, the cultivated plants that we have in eat here, were brought over by these old women who hid them, you know, like early on, they didn't need to hide them because there were no rules about it later. They would stitch them into their bra. Right. Your mother did. So they would, you know, and they would bring them over and something, the rosary is like that it's, uh, it's a rewilding, but it's also something that, that these people cultivated, you know, for a long, long time, it seems wild to us, right. But they're just the old ways to go back. Many, many centuries compared to modern life, the way they live, they seem wild, but they've been cared for intended for, you know, thousands of years by our ancestors === Monica: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of The Revelation Project Podcast. What does it mean to surrender certainty and live within mystery again, to recover the dark wisdom of the dirt and the dead to find our way together in an age of chaos and collapse? Well, we're about to find out, but first a bit of background. Since ancient times roses have symbolized the divine and the creators active presence in our lives. The rose is also a representation of the gradual process of revelation healing and the many layers of wisdom that unfold throughout our lifetime roses have also long served as the symbol of the lady also known as mother. Mary is closely associated with the rosary. But what most people don't realize is that she and the rosary are also closely associated with the goddess Isis. You may be surprised to realize that the rosary has many incredible mysteries that lead us down the radical path to the divine feminine. Before a vision of the mysterious lady invited Clark and Perdita to pray the rosary. They were not only an interested in becoming Catholic, but were finished with institutional religion all together. Their main spiritual concerns were the fate of the planet and the future of their children and grandchildren in an age of ecological collapse. But this lady barely even referred to the church and its prescriptions. Instead she spoke of the miraculous power of the rosary to transform lives and to heal the. Their book, The way of the Rose, the Radical Path to the Divine Feminine, hidden in the rosary completely floored me. And I consider it essential reading on the path to more deeply connecting with the divine feminine Clark strand. And Perdita fin are the co authors of this book, the way of the. They are also founders of an international fellowship by the same name, devoted to the earth and the lady by any name you wish to call her, they are committed to rewilding, prayer and our experience of spiritual community. Clark has written numerous books, including siege seeds from a Birch tree haiku as spiritual practice and waking up to the dark ancient wisdom for a sleepless age. And he connects people to the living world with his workshops on haiku. Finn is the author of the forthcoming. Take back the magic, getting to know the dad and leads friends into the underworld with her intensives on the dead. Join me in welcoming them. Hello, Clark. And Perdita. It's so great to have you. Perdita: Hi Monica. It's great to be on the show. Monica: I'm honored to have you both. And for our listeners, I was just telling Perdita and Clark that I had no idea when I interviewed their daughter, Sophie Strand, that there was any relationship. And so. It's pretty wild that I happened to have been listening to the way of the rows as an audio book. And it was only after I had interviewed their daughter that I continued listening and was putting the pieces together. Who is this Sophie now that I'm hearing about in the way of the rose. And so of course I'll connect Sophie's interview as well in the show notes, but I always say, you know, that. This path for me, like the Revelation Project for me has really been about revealing the divine feminine in my life. And so much of that is trusting the way. Perdita: Well, and once you start to trust the way the coincidences and the synchronicities and the entanglements everywhere, Monica: They really are, they really, really are. And it's just, it's one of those things where I think, you know, these are now everyday miracles when I remember to just surrender or be in the flow or come back to my breath that there's, there's so much that I know that we can jump in and talk about, but just interesting that we're kind of first embarking on the way right. Of just surrendering to that feminine to that, to, to that, which I think we have forgotten up until. These times. And I think there's what I'm feeling is, is like a, I liken it almost like how you might see a way of across a stadium or at a, at a concert, a music concert, you know, where people it's like a wave of consciousness, it feels is kind of coming up. As people are awakening all over the planet. And I really believe that this is what we call the return of the divine. Perdita: Well, mother never goes anywhere. The ground is always beneath our feet. You know, if you want to know if she's real, she once said, God saw it, lift up your foot and put it down. And if it lands on the earth someday, or Monica: Yes, and it's true Perdita: There, it doesn't go anywhere. Monica: No, and it's true. Perdita, it's like how right? How have we forgotten? You know, and what, what is this, you know, we often talk about everything is hidden in plain sight, but I would love to just maybe start by having, you know, the two of you take each, take a turn here in just telling our listeners a little bit more background about how this all started for you. Perdita: If we were going to be totally honest, Monica, I think we would say this has been the journey of lifetimes and that we arrived in this. With work to do, and this was it. And so there wasn't an experience or a moment in our lives. It wasn't somehow preparing us. I mean, I think we both turned to each other when we finished The Way of the Rose and said,. Oh, we did it. We did what we were supposed to do in this life. I mean, it wasn't easy. It was a seven-year writing project with the two of us and, and, you know, Our Lady wanted that L chemical energy of male and female in this book. And that's not always pretty. Clark: And we were writing the book. Our kids were when we started the book, both for our kids were still living at home and they'd come downstairs at some point and say, stop fighting. And we would say, we can't stop fighting. If we stop fighting, we stopped writing. Perdita: And it, and it was that fight. Is that the erotic passionate. I know what I want to say. I know what I want to say. And then from that was born with what needed to be said. And it was that meeting of male and female energies and perspectives, which the rosary itself offers, which is this tremendous L the medieval devote is of the rosary. Understood it as an all chemical magic of the heroes, gum, most of the sacred marriage, whether it's within us or without us, that we are igniting this sort of passionate, fertile efflorescence, uh, creative experience. So how did we get there? I mean, our whole lives and Clark wrote a book called Waking Up to the Dark, which we consider the first book in our trilogy, which is about which he can share his lost experiences of the darkness and how he came to them. I have just finished a book on the dead and Clark would say the dark legend to the lady and I would send a dead, led me to the lady. And that would be the short story. Yeah. Clark: I mean, at the same time, you know, although we were kind of born to this work and, you know, uh, doing it at one way or another all of our lives, there's definitely a before and after, I mean, before the appartions, it started in 2011, uh, you know, we were on one path and, uh, I think we, at various times thought we had some idea where we were going and whatever those sites, here's where they were all wrong. Perdita: And I think, I think we should say as both of us at before 2011, we're fed up with institutional religion of all varieties. I was not raised in any spiritual tradition as raised by Bohemian aethesits. I was converted to Catholicism mysteriously for about 10 minutes, Monica: Maybe 11 minutes, Perdita: 11 as, as, as an, as a radical feminist, it was a sort of odd choice. And I think I was looking for something to teach them about the lady and the rosary and in fascinatingly, I was never don't talk to him, Mary. She had been so eradicated from institutional Catholicism at this point, and that's what I was looking for. And I found her on my own later, went into Buddhism. Clark became a Buddhist monk. He can tell you about his past. And I found myself as a young mother fed up with being stuck in the back room with my children at the Buddhist monastery, stuck in the back room with my children at the Episcopal church, deciding that I would hang out in my own house in my own room with my own children. But I would, I felt desperately the need for as a young mother, uh, was a mother of myself and I wanted to pray the rosary. I couldn't tell you why it didn't make any sense. How, as a feminist X, Buddhist, momentary, Catholic taught me pray the rosary, but I did. And Clark, my husband, the ex Buddhist monk was the one who taught me how to pray the rosary. And, and I took to it as a young mother because it calmed me down. And you know, if you're in an ER with a child, our daughter has a very serious genetic illness and you're not going to be following your breath when you're in an ambulance with your child, headed to the hospital as fast as you can. But what your instinct is, is to hold on. And what I would hold on to are my beads. And that is what human beings have been doing for a hundred thousand years. It is our first instinct when we're born as babies to hold on. And it is what we've been doing as human beings. Whenever times are tough. We want to hold onto our mother, the rosaries and umbilical cord. And I experienced it that way. And I had no idea how I could convince anybody else to pray what I called my absolutely unboxed ferrel. I was onto something. I felt some, I didn't know what it was and Clark indulged me, and then he can share how he got started praying the rosary with me, which was my first rosary. He started praying the rosary with me is a miracle. Clark: Well, I grew up down south and, uh, you know, I had no experience of the divine feminine, except maybe my grandmother who was more of a colleague. Uh, so, you know, I, I, you know, I like to say that, uh, you know, I was a, probably a very poor choice on paper for a person to deliver this kind of message. Because, you know, before the apparitions. I had precisely one book in my vast spiritual library on the divine feminine, which was a gospel of few Ramakrishna. And to give you some idea of how clueless I was, I had read it two or three times without realizing it was about the great mother. And if you've read that book, every, you know, that you've mentioned it on like every page. So you know how I could have ignored that I don't know, but when I left a Buddhist chemos and Buddhist monk, you know, in my twenties and, uh, left my early thirties, I became incredibly spiritually promiscuous. I was curious about everything. I try everything, Perdita: you know, and he, it wasn't just that he tried everything Monica, he would, I would hear that he had spent the day down with the rabbis down at the, you know, the most Hasidic rabbis or that he had was often had found some Shaun teacher up in the mountains, or, I mean, Clark and Clark would take to the practice. Passionately for six months and then abandon it. Yeah, yeah. Monica: Yes. Clark: Yeah. In retrospect, I think I was trying to get patriarchy right. And rejected Zen and ultimately sort of lost, you know, interest in most forms of Buddhism. But I kept thinking that there's got to be a fix, right? There's gotta be a right way to do this. And I somehow couldn't sort of see my, my way around it now I learned the rosary weirdly in the midst of all this, it was the only practice that I took up that had anything to do with the divine feminine. I'm not sure I follow it that way, but I was on a trip to the Southwest to teaching meditation and haiku poetry. And I kept saying images of Guadalupe. And so I came back and I taught myself to pray the rosary. And I have to say from the very first moment I started saying the. I would feel phenomenal. Peace, unlike anything I'd achieved with these other practices. Uh, you know, the closest thing I could compare it to is like maybe being in the middle of a, of a seven day silent retreat at the monastery where I trained, which was completely removed from society often, or very remote part of the Catskills. And, uh, that was suspicious. I said, this must be like some placebo effect or something. It's not possible that our practice so simple an eight year old could teach it to themselves in an afternoon. Could possibly. Having this effect on me. So I gave it up. Where's Perdita: the technology, where's Clark: the secret handshake. Where's the expertism, where's the, you know, where the badge is, where wherever the level, you know, that's right. Profound. Right. So I gave it up and then, uh, what, like 10, 12 years passed and Perdita don't really, even that much, a few years you start with the kids were little and Perdita was, you know, having highway panic. And she turned to me at one point and said, will you teach me that rosary? I said, sure. She took to it. I didn't pray it. Years and years, Perdita: It was 15 years Clark: And our lady appeared. And, uh, in the beginning, I didn't really know who she was. She didn't, you know, come in blue ropes with a halo or anything, and she didn't identify herself as such, but about 10 weeks after her first appearance, she woke me up in the middle of the night, one night and said, if you rise to say the rosary tonight, a column of saints support. And I always jumped that, you know, I wasn't Catholic, but I also wasn't stupid. And there was only one figure. I never heard of it to invite you to pray the rosary and make promises based on whether or not, you know, you accepted that invitation. Perdita: What was fascinating? It was quick. And I had both for a long time, since the early nineties been very, very concerned about climate change. And we both had been, you know, we're, we're nature lovers. We hike we're outside all the time. We moved to the mountains into a little shack because that's where we're happiest. And, but we also have been, you know, reading climate.org for a long time. And we've been struck by how few people have wanted to pay attention to what's happening. And we began more and more to ask, what is the spiritual response to this moment of extinction and collapse that everyone is ignoring? Yes. And that it's terrifying to be in the midst of something has rising anxiety in the culture is this thing we're not discussing. That you can't have this many species going extinct and not know as an animal, which we are, that we ourselves are radically in danger. And so we park had founded a group called excess anonymous, and we've both gotten interested in nonhierarchical spirituality, no priests and priestesses, no money. We don't want any of the sexual or financial. We we'd seen the site sexual and financial abuse is up close. And so we, how did you create an organization of friends that had no leadership? No levels, no. In and out group, no secret handshake. Then Clark had started this group and the extraordinary thing was there were anarchists in this group, many of the founders of occupy wall street, Hindus, Buddhists, yogis, and all of them started praying the rosary over. I said, oh, this is the answer. Monica: I love that you just brought this in Perdita because to me, there is no separation. That the divine feminine and all of the ways in which we're being called back home called back to the mother called back to remember our inner connection to everything is what I think we're all starting to experience. When I talk about this massive awakening and you're right, there has been so many ways that I think the alarm bells have been going off in our, in the soft animals of our bodies for so long. And I don't know about you, but when the pandemic started, I had this feeling of utter calm, come over me as if like, oh, thank God. You know, thank Goddess. That there was a way that I thought that I was connecting, like something important is happening here. That is going to create a pause that is going to have us start to remember, you know, in, in, in a larger way, in a bigger way in a, in such a needed. Perdita: Well, she was like a mother giving us a time out. Wasn't she? Yeah, she was, no, I don't want to mitigate the tremendous death and loss of this experience for people. And for also those people in the front lines who have been experiencing such radical sorrow, but we live in a world right now. That's gonna th the corrections that our mother is going to make, you know, I sometimes think of the toddler at the end of the day, right? The house is wrecked and the child does not want to stop. And, you know, it says, let me help me. I'll help clean up. And mom says, no, I'm putting it in the bath. And you're going to bed Monica: A lavender bath Perdita: Bath, and I'm going to read you a story. I'm going to stroke your face and you're going to go to sleep, but you're going to bed. And I think that mother wisdom, if we can realize that she has this and she has us. And she can guide us through this if we hold her hand. But you know, it's like a child in the parking lot. What does mom say in the parking lot? Because the child hold my hand and don't let go. It's only dangerous. If you let go of your mother's hands. Clark: Yeah. You know, your, your listeners can go to our website, which has way of the rose.org. And they can read all relays messages. And she has been talking about the things that are happening now for the past 10 years. And in some of the earliest messages, she's pretty explicit. I mean, she doesn't say Corona virus or anything like that, but she's very, very clear that trials are coming and, and that, uh, they, we won't be able to predict them. Won't be able to control them that we're going to have to trust her. And then she will lead us through them. But, uh, yeah, it was, it felt like it was sort of right on schedule when it happened. We weren't that surprised. Monica: Yeah. And Clark, I love this, you know, the exploration of the Buddhism, you know, it's so interesting, right. Because so many of the messages there are like, let go, let go. And what you're pointing to is that there's this. We need something to hold on to. And, and I wanna, I wanna bring us back to this conversation about the rosary, because I would love to demystify for our listeners, what the rosary really it's its origin, you know, the power of its origin really was because I think so many of us are under the false assumption that the rosary is associated with religion. Perdita: I'll give you if you've got your listeners are listening and you can find a beat. If you've got a bead on your earring or a bead on your necklace or a Mala or somewhere, a bead or a button, roll it between your thumb and your forefinger, and just notice how that feels in your body and how it makes you feel. We have worry beads. We have fidget spinners. We have. Frightening of various things and another, but feel that bead between your thumb and your forefinger because human beings, homo sapiens have been making beads for over a hundred thousand years, not 2000 years, not 4,000 years, a hundred thousand years longer than we've been doing almost anything. And the question is why beeds are hard to make it's. If they take a lot of time and care to make a bead. And why, if they're 70,000 years ago, there was a super eruption on this planet called Mount Toba. And the entire population of human beings was reduced to 5,000 or so couples in South Africa. That's it. And what did people do? What was their response? They made beads. They made beads. Why it doesn't get them food doesn't do anything. Why would you make a bead. And I go back to holding that, that gesture of the bead between your thumb and your forefinger is the baby holding the mother's nipple. And it's where everything comes from food, love, nourishment, sweetness, constellation guidance, connection, intimacy, and that gesture of holding on is the gesture. It is the most primal of gestures for our species. It's the Mo it is our first gesture when we're born. And the Buddha talks about letting go because the Buddha abandoned his wife and child on the night that child was born, because he was so freaked out about the realities of motherhood when she was born. And if we could just get him a cup of hot chocolate and some rice pudding, we call them all down. But beets are older than. Religion doesn't get formed. About 3000 years ago, 3000, a hundred thousand years ago, we were making beads. Clark: You know, every tradition in the world, you know, and I discovered this when I got interested in the rosary, I couldn't stop myself, got interested in mantra practices, be practices. And this was during my years of sort of spiritual promiscuity. And, uh, I, I didn't really understand for the longest time what I was looking at. Like I knew the Ramallah beads, I knew there were Chapa mala or, you know, uh, Judas and then Jews Tez, bees, rosaries , you know, all Chuck keys, all these various different bead practices and the different traditions, you know, use basically for mantric repetition. But it wasn't until I began to do a really deep dive into their history and their point of origin that I realized that they had all evolved from the same basic folk practice, which goes back to probably paleolithic times, which was in the spring time to weave a crown of flowers to place either on another head or on the statue of, uh, of the great mother. So this weaving of a crown of roses with a very, very ancient tradition and long before. Became Mary's flower. They were ISIS as flower before Isis. If they were Annana flower it goes back into pre-history so that when people began to use beads, right, to say mantras, right there was tapped into this very, very old tradition. That was probably a mantra. Traditionally, it probably has spell right. That they were reciting as they were picking these flowers of the field and weaving them into crowns and then offering them. And so it merged this very, very ancient pagan tradition, uh, pre religious pre institutional pre symbolize tradition merged with. Uh, practice of counting prayers with beads, right? And you get this wonderful little legend, which I'll give you just a taste of like very long ornate versions of it. Very simple. I'll give you the simplest version. This existed in every language throughout Europe, in the early middle ages, it said that there was once a young boy that his great passion in life was weaving a crown of roses every morning to present to the statue of the lady in his village church. He was so inspired by this. He thought he would become a monk and he would get to do this all the time because of the monster. But basically when he gets there is period say, no, it's a pagan practice. You can't do that anymore. Right? And I've give him all kinds of other tests to perform. So he becomes so dejected in this, right? Because he just wanted to be close to the lady. And now institutionalized religion has taken the joy out of that. Sorry, resolved to leave. So he stops at the chapel to say goodbye to the statue of the lady there. And when he does, she speaks to him, statue speaks and says, don't be perturbed. Don't be sad. Don't be downcast or dejected. I will show you how to make prayers into flowers. So she teaches them to say the Hail Mary and so he starts saying this practice and for every hail Mary, he says, her rose comes out of his mouth and actual rose. All the stories have this in common. They, the other details change. But the roses coming out of the boy's mouth are boys is saying, and these, sometimes the Virgin herself is there and she weaves them into a crown. Sometimes an angel does it. Sometimes the boy does it, but the lady gets her crown. And that really represents the coming together of these two traditions. The Christian tradition in this very, very, very old tradition that goes back into prehistory. Perdita: And I would have just laid a step back a bit to our ancient or medieval grandmothers. If you, if you've got any European heritage there, they are in a village. And it's hard to remember that these villages were barely Christian. There was no printing press. Nobody knew how to read and write the priest. Didn't know how to read and write the novels. Didn't know how to read and write a couple of months dead, but, but reading was not scripture. The Bible, nobody knew it. And so the Catholic church comes in as an empire. Christianity comes in and for the people in these villages, and they've done DNA tests on people in these villages and their, which goes back 8,000 years today through people in England, we've been living in the same village rate thousand years. You've got to remember and they say, oh, the lady isn't Isis anymore. She's married. Okay. Oh, the baby isn't Horace anymore. He's Jesus. We know the lady, we know the baby. And in fact, some of the black Madonnas are actually refashioned statues of Isis and Horus, and the name has changed, but the devotion is exactly the same. And these grandmothers in oral tradition create a prayer. That is the prayer. We know as the hail Mary and they created devotion, this rosary devotion, where they hide their devotion to the great mother from the. And it is an alternative. The rosary for centuries is an alternative devotion to the institutional church. I mean, I'll tell you a story. Like we had a, we had a society, a friend of Sicilian heritage, and he remembers as a child, his grandmother praying the rosary to the black Madonna in the row. And one day he came in because he was going to get in a Catholic school. He's seeing these little blue and white valley and virgins, you know, and he says, grandma is that Mary, are you praying to Mary? As grandmother sits here for a long time and she looks at him and she said, No, Clark: Nobody never forgot it. I forgot, forgotten, been smoking kids. Cause he was confused. We knew him when he was like, you know, in his late fifties. Right. He'd been confused about this his whole life. We told him about the black Madonna because gosh, that's, that's what my grandmother was praying to. And, Perdita: and, and the attached to extinguish magic like clerks is, you know, th th what would the hail Mary is? The oldest mantra is the most popular mantra in the world. And it's also a spell. And these women knew it was a spouse and it was actually a summoning of the triple goddess. Yes. Hidden in plain sight. Monica: Yes. And so, yeah, I was just going to say so there, so for our listeners too, there's so much history here of suppression and oppression and destruction and denigration of the feminine. And so, you know, again, there's so many things that come up for me as I hear this story, you know, you know, her saying no, because also it's so calculated. It's also so true. And it's also an act of rebellion Perdita: That's right. Yeah. And the, she was an active rebellion and in fact, you know, It's really hard to realize because we live in a post-Vatican two world of Vatican too. As Charlene Spretnak has written about and missing. Mary was actually an act of violence against Mary as queen of heaven and earth. And all of her prayers were removed from the mass. The rosary was turned into a weapon to fight abortion as a way of taking the rosary away from women. And there was a lot of violence against the mother and the need to turn her into an obedient little girl. I mean, if you look at medieval statues of marriage itself and bare breasted expressing, I mean, there are statutes in the loop showing Mary holding up her breasts and expressing milk across the room, into the mouths of the breaks. You know what I mean? Like. These are not submissive Monica: well, and that the origin of that word Virgin is actually a right. Com completely not what we've made it into, be in the Catholic church. Right. And everything to do with power and sovereignty. Oh, exactly, exactly right. Yes. Perdita: Yes. And even, you know, I mean, we could go on, I told you, you're not going to get us Monica: shut up. I mean, believe me, what, what we'll be doing episode 20 of the same series, you know, I don't care how long it takes. Perdita you know what I mean? Like this, this, this information has just got to get out here because there's so much, there's so much. And once you start, I call it soul food, you know, and it literally, once you start unraveling, I call it the great unbecoming, right? It's like everything that has been unbecoming for a lady is exactly where we need to head because we need. Perdita: But we also need to recover the wisdom of our grandmothers that has been sentimentalize and marked. I mean, I once wrote a post on Facebook that went viral and insane. Cause I said, I don't want to be the Dalai Lama. I want to be my grandmother. My grandmother had six children that she knew how to feed during the depression. She had six children that she prayed through illness because she couldn't afford a doctor. This woman knew about prayer. My father mocked her for, you know, he was a doctor and he said off superstitious, old bitty, you know, thinking she can pray the rosary to end a fever. Well, she didn't have antibiotics She didn't have a doctor. And that child she prayed for is still alive at 96, the only one, And that lost wisdom of these women, these old women, like what does it mean to look to the wisdom, the wisdom of our grandmothers who knew we're going to need it going forward, we're going to need their miracle, Clark: But let's, let's look at some specifics because it, you know, his words, weren't thinking about, like, for instance, if you take a rosary, like if anyone, you know, out there in, uh, uh, virtual land, listening to this, you know, has a rosary, you can pick it up or you can imagine it's a pretty iconic sort of Catholic symbol. If you pick it up and you hold it so that the circle of beads forms a circle with a cross dangling down, then if you look at it closely, you realize after a moment you're looking at the symbol for Venus, right? The gender sign for female, if you let it droop a little bit. So the forum's more of an oval with a cross dangling down, then you realize it goes back even further than that. It's the Ankh, the symbol of, you know, the, the Egyptian higher God for life and, and which is most intimately connected with the goddess Isis. So you're already holding. a symbol of the divine feminine before you even say any of the prayers. So this is a secret that's hidden in plain view. Here's another, the rosary consists of saying our fathers and hail Marys, a male prayer and a female prayer. So it's a reenactment basically of the divine marriage. Right. The heroes, commas, uh, the, the, the marriage of, of, of, of opposites, right? Monica: Integration of the feminine and the masculine. Yes. Clark: Okay. So, but the way you move through the rosary, as you go through 15 mysteries, these mysteries are very thinly disguise. Versions of the ancient mystery call to the Mediterranean Perdita: and mysteries, Clark: The mysteries of Isis and it was Cyrus. I mean, it goes back, Perdita: There are more connected to those mysteries than there are the Bible Clark: They are. And the Bible is really just sort of like, uh, uh, almost a sort of, uh, I don't know, uh, the, the latest version sort of written on top of these older ones, but here's a really interesting factor. You're talking about rebellion earlier. The rosary as rebellion one of the most interesting rebellions in the middle ages, rosary rebellions was that the priests decided that when the rosary became popular, that it should mirror the new Testament, which meant it had to be linear. So it starts with the annunciation Mary finding out she was going to give birth to Jesus and it ends with revelation. The last judgment, well, medieval people as a whole completely dismiss this idea. They said, well, we're not doing that. Cause it doesn't make any sense because our lady, lady, we worshiped the one lady we prayed to revelation and we've known for the thousands of years. Does it really function that way? She's not punitive. She doesn't think linearly. She, she thinks like the turning seasons, it's all a big circle. Right? And so they said, so we're not doing that. So they put two mysteries at the end of the 15 mysteries of the rosary that weren't even in the Bible. Right. They're all in the Bible. They're all in the new Testament, except the last two that the assumption of Mary into heaven and the coronation of our lady as queen of heaven and earth. And it's wonderful. If you look at images of the coronation break Hawken or a theme and Catholic art, do you never see Mary as a 63 year old woman or a 72 year old actually. Perdita: And I'm going to, because she read Mary Magdalen reveal, you see her as the bride of Jesus. You see the divine marriage ends with Jesus, crowning her as if at a wedding. Clark: Yeah. And oftentimes it just to make things a little, a little bit more mystical and somewhat confusing. Jesus is crowning her. And sometimes she's also holding Jesus. So it's like this big circle that, that starts where it begins and ends where it begins. Yes. So I'm going to read where we start to, Perdita: We have so many, we we're working on a book about the mystery, so right now, cause I'm fascinated by the Medi the Mediterranean mystery cults and their relationship to the rosary, which is people, people are just, yeah, yeah. We'll change the names. We'll do the same thing and it's a different. What does it mean though, to have a root system back inside of these? I don't want to call them indigenous, but they're really ancient pre religious devotions to the earth and they're readily available to us. We don't have to appropriate anyone else's culture. We don't have to invent something out of thin air. We, you know, I often say what's the difference between a prayer and a spell, nothing, nothing. But when you say these words that your grandmothers have said for hundreds and hundreds of years, and your grandfathers have said for hundreds and hundreds of years, they show. Yeah. And they pray with you. Yes. And they really start to show you activate this kind of morphic field of prayer and you step into it, Monica: Which is why also, you know, we been taught not to do that. We've been taught that too, to go outside of ourselves, to have an intermediary in many religions. And I really, this, this all kind of comes back to the same thing too, which is the importance of what I call women specifically, also men. And I want to talk a little bit more about patriarchy and then women and men, right. Cause totally. Different. But what I also want to point to here is this, this importance of embodiment and how we have been taught to abandon ourselves physically, spiritually. Okay. So Perdita like gesturing. So we know like she we're onto something here. Yeah. Perdita: Yes. This is a somatic lit holding on, gets us back inside our bodies. Yes. And that's the way of the way of the disembodied sky. God is the up, up and away is this linear ascent. It's all about hierarchies. It's all about lineages. It's all about who's on top and who's on the bottom. It's all about the mind is better than the body. The soul heaven is better than earth up, up in a way. And you know, eventually we're going to upload our minds to some computer and go to Mars and it's psychotic and it makes us feel psychotic. And the way of the mother is down there. The way of the mother is a circle. If you look in nature, all of nature is a circle. The mother matter, and M A T T E R matrix and mater mother. The Latin word for mother are all one. Our ladies first teaching on the rosary was this Monica. The rosary is my body. The rosary is my body. My body is the body of the world. Your body is one with that body. What costs could there be for fear? And when we start to feel ourselves held, we're not only holding on we're being held. There's nowhere to go. There's no better or worse. Nobody's on top and nobody's on the bottom and there's a mother in the world. And we're not going to go anywhere. We're going to be done. The rosary teaches them. About birth, death and rebirth, and it teaches it to a somatically. And we heal this trauma of this disembodiment by praying the rosary. And I, I mean, Clark has written Clark wrote the earliest critiques of the mindfulness movement and we don't have to go there because he saw the violence. You know, it's used to train soldiers because it takes us out of our hearts and it takes us out of our bodies. Clark: You know, I, I wrote a, uh, uh, 17 sellable critique cause I'm a haiku poet. How's the whole sort of non-attachment transcendence thing. I'll tell it to you. If you've ever seen abindweed, you know, what a bind weed, it's like a wild morning glory and it grows on anything like it'll, it'll twine around anything and these beautiful white more Inglourious sort of blossoms. Anyway, this is the haiku. The bind weed blossom is proof that non-attachment. Is overrated. Monica: It's just that simple, right? Clark: It really is. It really is everything. It, everything is bound to everything else. So you've said there's no separation. Well, there's no daylight between anything, right? It's that close. Since, you know, that binds lead around, you know, our route, we look at a plant like that. We say, well, it's per se. Now we beginning to understand that the relationship is always symbiotic between the plants that seem to be feeding off because it also doing something for the plant. So there's this endless dance of different beings. And the rosary invites us to participate in that dance and become intimate with all these aspects of life. Even things that we would ordinarily be afraid of or. Not wanting to have anything to do with the darker sides of things. The rosary incorporates all of that's. Monica: Right. And, and what I want to highlight here, amplify is this what you had just quoted about, you know, what is there to fear, right. Or something. And I think about fear and that too, is, is that great separation, right? That when we are in fear, which we are again, like fear mongered day in and day out, every moment of every day, you know, that. That that coming back home to our bodies, to ourselves, to the rosary, to our own sovereignty, to our own birthright, to, to be at peace and trust and know, you know, not only that more will be revealed as we go, which I think is, is so feminine, but that also, you pointed to so much of your exploration and writing about the dark, which again, we're taught to fear the dark, the descent, and this is where we ascend, you know, it's so interesting because again, going back to how we awaken, how we come to consciousness is through a descent is through the darkness. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that. Perdita: Well, just one thing as a woman, the demonization of the darkness is completely part of the demonization of the feminine and women's bodies. Hold and give birth in the darkness of the womb seeds are germinate in the darkness of the soil. Women used to go into the caves down, not up, not to send Mount Everest, but to go into the caves together, to express and bring forth life from the depths of the earth. And the fear of the darkness is the fear of women's power. It fear of the black Madonna, the fear of mystery. And what does it means to live in mystery? You know, we live in a world. We think we can understand and control everything that hyperlink world and how to turn this over to Clark has written a book about it, but we torture people by keeping the lights. So is on you keep the lights. So as on prisoners go crazy and we have made ourselves crazy. Clark: We talk oftentimes about modern life in terms of addiction. And, uh, now that we've began to look at the response of our entire species to climate change and our inability, really to change our behavior, even though we know that we're basically like a car driving off a cliff, right? That was the image that John Holdren, Obama's chief science advisor use, uh, years ago. And he said, we're in a car with bad brakes in the fog headed towards a cliff. We know the cliff is out there. We just don't know exactly where it is. Well, now we know that the cliff is we're here, right? We're probably already falling right off the cliff. So, but we, we find ourselves unable to respond in any kind of meaningful way. There's a lot of busy. So there's a lot of delusion about what will work, what won't work most efforts to, uh, solve. This problem will only create further levels of complexity, uh, that will create other problems that we haven't foreseen. So our, you know, the earth will solve this problem, or lady will solve it. But I do not believe that that it lies within our, our power to solve it for our change. It, if it were, we would be, we would look like a very different species than we are, but that sort of addictive drive right addiction to oil addiction, to media addiction, to information. All of it, when it boiled down to at bottom is an addiction to light. We are addicted consciousness. We're addicted to control. We're addicted to certainty. We're addicted to, to knowledge and not knowledge in the sense of wisdom, right? Perdita: Wisdom is dark, Clark: Wisdom as a dark face, and wisdom is hidden in the dark, right? But, but this, you know, the age of enlightenment has set us on the roads, right. You know, occasionally you'll meet a scientist is, you know, honest enough to realize, you know, to, to admit to others. They don't have a clue. And that in fact, they are overwhelmed by the complexity of the problems before them. And don't know where to turn. Perdita: Sometimes people say to me, how can you, I'm not frightened looking at the worst horrors in this world and Clark and I were just talking about this last night. Uh, in fact, you know, what gives us the resilience. And we began talking about joy. And so I'd like to circle back to joy. Why, why can I stand at the foot of the cross? Why can I look at lithium mines? Why can I look at these catastrophic calamities in our world? Why can I read about what's happening in Ethiopia right now? Because I'm not in charge. She is. And I know that there's, the rosary teaches me that there is birth death and rebirth. Nobody goes anywhere. There is nothing but return. We will all be reborn into the world we've made. And so that makes me serious. I don't, no one's getting out of this alive. There are baby boomers who imagined they're going to kind of age out of climate change. I hate to tell them this, you will be born into the world. So I, I, you know, it's serious business at the same time. She's got this. Yes. And she's, and she will guide each of us in what we need to do at this moment, so that we are already born from the, Clark: This is a nice sort of natural segue to what is essentially our ladies, you know, main teaching on the rosary, which is that we pray for our hearts desire. We don't just pray the rosary, like a mantra. It is a mantra and it will lower your blood pressure and it will bring health benefits and you get, make you feel more content, but that's really not what it's for. She tells that the rosary is praying for our heart's desire. And every time we ask her, like, well, what should we do? What should, what should we do? Thank God. The world seems to be spinning out of control. What should we do? She says the same thing and not just an Aaron Woodstock, but an apparitions all around the world for the past 200 years, she said the same thing. Hold my hand. Pray the rosary, pray for your heart's desire, but why pray for your heart's desire? Like it seems, it seems countering. And that when the world is spinning out of control around you, it seems like you should take the range. You should do everything. You can, you should get busy. You know, you shouldn't let us second get away from you to try to steer that car off of the road, to, to the cleft, to in some other direction. Right? But that the moment you put your hands on those wheels and try to steer the car, the car will go where it wants to go. Culture will go where it wants to go. It does not have our best interest in mind. My job is to get out of the car. Our job is to pray for our heart's desire because that's the only thing that can displace the culture. The, the, the civilization that we live in is a vast. Moving like an ocean liner that can't turn or stop it's, you know, a mile out from port, it's got too much momentum. This got too much power. And, but our heart's desire. If we know what we truly want, we become resistant to the, to the evils of the culture that will tell us what to want, what to desire, what to do, what to fear. Mostly. It tells us what to fear, right? What to be afraid of. And, uh, you know, people who, who have the people who have, I think that the, the least idea of what they truly want in life are the most dangerous people. Most driven by profit, most violence, most driven by the need to control others person who's who's who is content in their heart, because they know that what matters is love, friendship, beauty, song, dance, all the things that we've had as humans. Tens of thousands of years, Perdita: Our lady is teaching us to let go of civilization and embrace the culture, should always get an us. And which is, you know, our, for our ancient forebears, you know, they didn't work very hard. They didn't, they had a lot of fun. They were touching each other all day long. They had music and song and the best part we've ever seen in the world. Art's never been better than it was 30,000 years ago. And music. And they had each other, but they also knew that they didn't, they had her. Yes, they, they had her, they had a mother, the mom was in charge. Yeah. And if we can just let her be in charge, we can embrace the joy that she has for us. Clark: Can you go back and, you know, go to certain areas of the world. You find more than some others, but any place that human beings have lived for a very long time, if you dig down in certain spots, you'll begin to find, uh, clay or stone figures Perdita: Who makes them for the end of rosarys. Monica: Awesome. I love that Perdidas holding up this beautiful woman's voluptuous body at the end of a rosary. Is that what that is? Perdita: Goddesses goddess, figurines, the early pills that got us figurines. They're all different sizes and shapes. And I have a friend who replicates them. You can find out about our work on our website. So she's amazing. Monica: You're a good friend. Perdita: She's a great artist. Shout out to her. She replicates them. They're all, you know, some women are fat. Some women are thinner. Some have big boobs, some don't some have, but some don't, all of them can be held. They're all meant to be held Clark: like this. They're all female. These, these, this first, you know, object of human devotion first, you know, these original goddesses, they're all, they're all female. You find that all over the world. So the great mother was, you know, for these people was really kind of indistinguishable from the earth. They've made images of her so that they could experience that not only being held by her, like from below, like, you know, as the earth holds us up and, you know, for all around them, the air, the warmth, the sun shining on them that so that they could also hold her and their palms. Monica: Yeah, I love that. And I was going to say, you know, I always say that we live in the upside down. Right. But like, in, in, in all ways, right. And I was reading somewhere and I'm going to not remember the ancient text, but it was Eastern ancient text. And it was something about knowing that we dwell, we want to dwell in the energetic of the feminine, because that is where the whole of life is and to touch into the masculine, to touch in, but to come back to return right. To the wholeness, to the interconnectedness. And it, it just, again, it's like, we're S we're. So in the upside down, because we are so hyper masculine, like our whole culture is so hyper masculinized. And I often struggle when it comes to it's like, The masculine is just as needed as the feminine. And when we talk about kind of how that has been amplified into what is known as kind of these patriarchal systems where they've amplified these, these masks and distorted the masculine really it's a distortion. I think that's the word that comes up for me. Perdita: You know, if you look at these CEO's and you look at these guys, you know, patriarchy doesn't even work for the patriarchs Monica: No for heaven sakes. Perdita: I mean, you know, you know, you look at them and you think, you know, what they really need is a cup of cocoa and a laugh and the story, you know, and we have been addicted to civilization and both the masculine and the feminine and the liberation. That addiction, the sobriety of that addiction is this long story. The lady is teaching us with the rosary. The long story of life, always being born died. Reborn born died reborn. If we really feel that in our bodies, we don't have to live forever. We can live again and again, and live forever. And that truth. And I think with the masculine and the feminine, I mean, our daughter is a great writer about the masculine and the sacred masculine. And, uh, but I think maybe the rosary also teaches us. Our lady said in one of her messages, I invite everyone, male and female young and old to join me and mothering in the world. And I believe that for these ancient people, there were very few binary. There was, uh, everyone was a mother and you see this in indigenous peoples. Everybody has responsibility for the children. Everyone has responsibility for the old people. Everyone has different expressions of masculine and feminine in their bodies in different ways. And that there are a lot of ways to be gendered, but everybody is a mother. And what is it like to live in a world where finally there are enough mothers. We live in a world where there are not enough mothers and everybody feels so unmothered and everyone feels like a loss traumatized child, everyone, everywhere I go, people, mothers are incapable of mothering in our cultures. We've made mothering an impossible task. Mothers fail. They're designed to fail. They feel like failures, their children don't feel like they got mother. Nobody feels mothered. What would it look like to live in a world where men and women or every, whatever you want to be. Everybody, every Fern is a mother. Every loss is a mother, every lichen as a mother, the plants and the animals all experience themselves as mothers. And that is, I don't want to make it as a gender term. It's not about biological parenthood. It is about recognizing that we are all each other's mothers lifetime after lifetime. We are all expressions of her in the world. And to be an expression of her in the world is to know that Monica: Well and right back full circle to the rewilding, that that idea of rewilding to me is the disintegration of, or the right side upping, you know, of what, of what needs to happen. You know, where we stop centering ourselves as Sophie would say, you know, and to start centering what really matters mater, you know, and ha there it Clark: is. You know, Sophie once gave us a great, uh, image. We were working on the book because she was always around. She had a lot of thoughts and pain going back for her teenage years. And, uh, at one point she turned to us one day and she said, you know, the rosary is this stowaway and the whole of the Catholic church smuggled down centuries. Right? It's this devotion to the great mother. That's been basically smuggled a down. In the whole of the church Perdita: lately, Clark: But lately I've been thinking like, well, what was that? What did they smuggle? Those old grandmothers and everything. And I remembered, I've heard this from a number of different people, not from just one source people, you know, you talk to people about, well, you know, where did your people come from? Well, my grandmother came over on her own, right? Here's the thing, what they brought with them were seeds. They brought with them, the seeds for the food. They knew how to cook and the, and for the, for the plants, they knew how to raise from the country. They were born in. And a lot of the plants, uh, the cultivated plants that we have in eat here, uh, were brought over by these old women who hid them, you know, like early on, they didn't need to hide them because there were no rules about it later. They would stitch them into their bra. Right. Your mother did. So they would, you know, and they would bring them over and something, the rosary is like that it's, uh, it's a rewilding, but it's also something that, that these people cultivated, you know, for a long, long time, it seems wild to us, right. But they're just the old ways to go back. Many, many centuries compared to modern life, the way they live, they seem wild, but they've been cared for intended for, you know, thousands of years by our ancestors Perdita: Is that heart's desire. And, you know, Clark and I are also fascinated by, you know, non-hierarchical spiritual community and created a community, a huge international community, 14,000 people not doing. No, there are no rules, very few rules. We a couple of months ago, got to be nice and there's no money involved in anything. We do no advertising, nothing costs any money. Our meetings are a hundred percent free. There are no requirements. There there's no expert class, no preset, priestesses, no building, no building fund, no buildings. We're not building anything. The only thing we, our lady once said, look at roses. Roses are an invasive species. They spread. What, you know, group of people getting together to pray together for their heart's desire are unstoppable. Clark: Yeah. It's a really revolutionary act to pray for your heart's desire is, is basically to become to rewild yourself and to withdraw your consciousness right within yourself, your intention and yourself, you know, so that it can bear fruit rather than entrusting it to, to, you know, the culture at large, which will tell you to do all kinds of things that are bad for you and bad for us. Monica: And I want to say to our listeners that their Facebook group is, it's just such a place it's literally like what you were just expressing before the music that dance, the art, right? The it's it's literally like a, well, it's a devotional beautiful place where everybody gets to express their love, their heart's desire, as you say. And so I really welcome all of our listeners to join the way of the rose on, in the Facebook group. And also, yeah. Where else can they go to learn more about. Perdita: There are two ways. Our Facebook group that people would say is the most unfaced book experience in the whole world. They Monica: do. Goodness. Yes, Perdita: it's very anarchic and very loving and very expressive, as you'd said, and really rich there's also, we have a website way of the rose org and we offer rosary circles sometimes up to 10 a day, zoom phone meetings, where you can go and pray with other people. You can pray and make the words work for you. You will, you will. It's hard to describe how rich those meetings are and what it's like to begin praying for your heart's desire with other people and telling your story because, you know, we barely, the rosary is a story that invites us to tell our story and takes the tape off our mouth. It's not a silent prayer. You get to express yourself and be yourself. Clark: And then there's the book itself, you know, early on, but we didn't really know what to expect. We wrote this book, it was hard to write. It took us a long time to write it. Our lady, the only single piece of advice she gave us, she said, when we started the book, she said, just remember. You're not writing your book, you're writing a river. And we had no idea what that meant, but we've discovered it because it has its own forest and its own momentum, its own power separate from us. And when we, that river flow out into the world, it started to affect people in really remarkable ways. Person would just discover the book and they read it and suddenly they buying copies for their, for their grandmother. Right now we have grandmothers who were buying it for their grandchildren, right. Catholic ladies who read our book and they go, oh my gosh, my grandson can be a rosary practitioner after all, because he won't be able to read this to church Perdita: trans, which from Oregon praying side by side with a Catholic lady from Ohio. Monica: Right. It's it's you know, and, and what I want to also say to our listeners, When Manette said, you have to read this book. I was like, uh, you know, like, yeah, but I had my own kind of Catholic trauma with. And so there was that meaning, right. That I was projecting upon the book without reading it. And as I listened to it, because I got it on an audible, well, I got it both in Kindle format, but then I was like driving so much. I ended up listening to it. And again, what I want to say is that it was the type of book for me where literally it was this massive kind of like unbecoming process that happened where not only did I understand the more, the true essence of where the rosary originated and what its intention is all about. There's again, all of these threads and interconnectedness into our. Just world as mother motherhood, the masculine and the feminine, where we're at ecologically, like there's so many inter beautiful tapestry of interweaved conversations within this book. Like it is so good. Okay. Perdita: Thank you for saying tapestry. That was the image I used when we were putting the book together Clark and it clicked. And I would say, I just feel like I've got this giant loom and it was such a big book. It was. So Monica: I get it because it was literally like trying to put the world in, in a book. Right. And that, so seven years it took you. I mean, I, I can see why and the fact that it didn't even take longer is a miracle. Perdita: Well, it was, it was so hard and it was, you know, people would say, oh, it's so effortless, you know, to read them. And we go, well, and sometimes you will say like, you know, who wrote. Clark: We have no idea. Yeah. Even the chapters where we're writing are, you know, cause they're little, the book basically mirrors the, you know, the form of the rosary you like there six, our fathers and the resume, there was six longer chapters we're pretty to, and I go back and forth telling the story from our point of view. And then they're all a little hail, Mary 53 hail Mary chapters, which are about, you know, aren't written in either of our voices, you know? And oftentimes that's because each of us was taking turns, writing sentences and crafting them to get them just right to say what we knew needed to be said, but the. Just trying to conceptualize. That was hard, you know, so hard. And we, we thought we were done and our editor took us out for lunch in the city. And she said, you're about 80%. There never what you want in here. Monica: I bet that, that was hard to swallow. Clark: We went back to the, we didn't go, you know, it wasn't a radical revision, but we went back to the drawing board and we realized that, you know, there were certain things we just had said up front that needed to be fed. And Sophie at the very beginning, even before the book starts, this is not a Catholic book Perdita: to the, Clark: it has to be the first Monica: words you read, you know what, and I, and it, I remember that and being like, oh, okay, Perdita: Thank you. Well, you know, one of the things that's really painful to me and to see is the way that the rosary was co-opted by the church to kill it. And they did kill it. That's why you can find it, you know, junk shops. The rosary is a private, personal, intimate devotion among women has really disappeared. It's become a tool Clark: and the developed world still, you can still find it. And south America, there are pockets, uh, where, where the rosary is filled practice, you know, much as it was in medieval times, but increasingly, uh, in the developed countries and Europe and America, and most, most, uh, Northern latitude countries, it's really, uh, you know, it's been a deep platform. Rosary has been the platform to buy the Monica: church. I believe that I've discovered one of my heart's desires in this conversation, which is, and that is that the book as more and more people read it and discover it and hear this podcast and every podcast where you're appearing that this idea of the rosary as a radical act of rebellion will completely intrigued the hell out of everybody. And that, that once they read it is one of those things like you were saying, like, It truly, I can't tell you how many people I've said you have to read this, or I've given it as a gift because it's just that beautiful. It's a masterpiece. It truly is. And I get that. It is, it is sacred. It's message is sacred and it's infused, like I could feel it on a set, a cellular level. So for those listeners again, like do give yourself the greatest gift and listened to this book. You will not be disappointed. I mean, and again, Clark, I can't wait. I've downloaded, um, Waking up to the Dark. Perdita: Yes. Yes, we are reissuing it. Um, so for next fall it will come back out in the new edition. Fabulous. Hopefully we're, you know, we'll have a whole family slew of books next fall flux book Sophie's book. And hopefully my book prolific. Monica: Yes. I love it. Bring us all you can, as you can probably see. It will be in great company on my shelves. I am a complete book junkie. So our way it's a problem. It is it's the best problem. So I want to just acknowledge you both thank you for your work in the world. You have been so precious in all ways. And this, I was so nervous doing this interview. You're like, that's how much you too mean to me? I mean, I can't tell you, Perdita: I've asked you at the beginning, you know, where are you in Rhode Island? Cause I know Rhode Island, so, well, you know, In that area. Literally Monica: I can throw a stone at the University. Like I am right behind the historic, uh, jail. Oh, you Providence. Well, no, no, no. I'm in Kingston. And of course, I didn't say which university, but the University of Rhode Island, which yes. Yes. So here, so we're very close and yeah. So someday we'll have to Perdita: On June 16th every year, which is the anniversary of the apparition. We have a feast steak here in Woodstock. Oh, I love that. Um, Monica, please come because we're going to do this year. Three days, we call it three days of peace, love and rosary. And it was ecstatic this past year. Clark: Kids Perdita: everywhere. Praying, rosary, dancing. We have no more. We had medieval fair, you know, what sucks, also a fun place with hiking and outdoors and stuff. And this year we're going to have poetry readings, and Sophie would be reading from her Monica: book. Oh, oh, I love it. I love it. Well, maybe I can even have a piece ready by then because I'm writing a book. Perdita: That's what we want to do. We want to have, we want to have a lot of our right. We have a lot of Ray of the rose books and writers. And so we want have a lot of a whole evening of writing and Monica: presentations. Okay. Well, here we go. Then more to be revealed. Thank you again. Yes. And for I thank you, Clark. And for our listeners, we'll be sure to put these links in the show notes and they're invited to. Everybody's in adequacy. Everybody's invited. Okay. I love that. Okay. Well until next time more to be revealed, We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.