99_Ron and Dan === Ron: I think coming out of like a post-World war II and then the baby boomer thing, and then Gen X is just what I'm on the tail end of like, we saw a style of masculinity that we just decided that's, it's not conscious. We wouldn't have used these words in the past, but it's not conscious. It's a, we wouldn't have used the word patriarchal either, but now we recognize it as that kind of, that it's violent. It's not tender. It's gruff. It's a lot of those more aggressive in quote unquote masculine ways of being. And many of us said, hey, we're not going to do that. We're going to be opposite. And so we tried to be nice. We tried to be empathetic. We tried to be, to make good decisions, sound decisions. And unfortunately it kind of separated us from a, from a healthy masculinity where sometimes aggression is necessary where sometimes that kind of strength is required. And so it's kind of, you know, I, I say the opposite of a pole, what, I mean, a pole is like the north pole on the, on theglobe. The opposite of a pole is also a pole. Yes. And so it's, it's easy to swing from one ineffective place in life to another ineffective place in life. === Monica: Welcome to the Revelation Project Podcast. I'm Monica Rogers, and this podcast is intended to disrupt the trance of unworthiness and to guide women, to remember and reveal the truth of who we are. We say that life is a revelation project and what gets revealed gets healed. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Revelation Project Podcast. Today I'm with two gentlemen who also have a podcast of their own, and I thought it would be fun to invite both of them to come on the show. And you'll see why shortly first, I want to introduce Daniel Penner Klein, who was born in Southern Mexico and raised in Northern California by his adoptive parents. He was a collegiate athlete. I studied in Australia and Alaska and earned a degree in journalism. He is now a painter writer and co-host of the podcast cutting for sign, which explores the emotional, physical, and cognitive potential expressed through human lives. He is currently working on a book, chronicling the experience of witnessing his mother's murder when he was four and the subsequent confrontation decades later with the emotional effects on himself and the others involved to wind down Daniel partner dances and plays blues piano. He's currently based out of Northern California and keeps an art studio in Portland, Oregon. My second guest is Ron Cecil who was born in rural New Mexico, where he fell in love with the divine rock climbing and smoking cigarettes in secret. That was my favorite. He has degrees in new Testament, literature and psychology. And though he seemed destined to become either a cowboy or a preacher spent years running, large businesses, domestically and abroad in 2016, he committed to his calling as a masculine wholeness coach, and now guides men through the journey of resetting their nervous systems and disrupting patterns that have kept them from creating mental, physical, and emotional health lasting. Romantic love has also been a vital aspect of Ron's story. His parents were made. 13 times. And this has created in him a devotion to understanding what makes a healthy marriage. He's been vibrantly partnered since 2009 and is now father to a daughter, an adopted son in 2020, Ron completed a lifelong goal by speed climbing. Yosemite's half dome later that year. He co-founded the podcast cutting for sign. And at the same time doubled down on his lifelong pursuit of writing. He's currently working on a modern Western inspired by the works of Cormac McCarthy and set in the high desert where he grew up. Okay. You guys seriously? Can anybody beat those bios? Ron: Daniel. Daniel has a serious gift at writing bio that's kind of one of the superpowers I was tearing up listening to Daniel, like lifting down. I was like, damn, I'm proud of that guy. Monica: Oh, it's just, okay. Daniel. I know who to call to spice up my bio. Daniel: I would be happy to do that. I, you know, it's on, I didn't expect that to be something I would enjoy so much, but we write a little intro for every guest we have and I've, I've, I've really enjoyed it way more than I thought. Monica: Well, you know, what it brings up for me is actually you guys were just mentioning the, our last past podcast episode. Right. Which was now I'm forgetting what I called it, but it's a beautiful you. Right. And there's that way that we tend to forget, unless somebody else is reflecting it back on us. Like, what is our brand of beauty? What is our brand uniqueness and what it, what is our compelling story that others might immediately kind of want to hear about? And yet we go around being like, oh, you know, I guess I'm okay. Ron: Yeah. Downplay ourselves big time. Daniel: Totally. And on the, on another side of that, Ron and I had this little text, uh, interaction a few weeks ago, that was seemingly nothing at first, but he made some joke about his, he made a very short story. That was very much not true about his origin. And it was just a little jokey text. And then I looked at it and I was like, oh yeah, I got this. And so I wrote a kind of jokey texts back to her. My bio at and they were totally like, he was in this bio. He w he wrote a best seller at nine years old, like in his body, you know, it was just having fun, but it led to us, this is Cutting for Sign. Cause that little thing and how much joy we took out him. He later read both of those to his wife, and we realized that there's something to a exploring other potential other aspects of ourselves through writing, but through calling it, you almost like, yeah, it is really cathartic and it balances something for me. I don't know if you know what I mean, but, well, well Monica: Give me an example. Like, let's take this even a step further. Daniel: Okay. Well, there's two people I admire and I don't know where you all stand or that you stand on this, but hear me out. And one is, uh, Larry David with curb, your enthusiasm. Do you, are you familiar with that show? Yes. Okay. So at first for years I thought that was him. You know, I just thought that was kind of him and an exaggerated version of him. But as I understand it, it's not, it's, he's very, he's a real sweetheart and he's kind of quiet and he's very different in real. But that's also real aspects of him in the show that he's gotten to express in the world, Monica: amplify it, Daniel: And it gets to live and it gets to bring awareness to the issues like don't do this, but he gets to do it and thereby tell people not to do it. And I just love that. That's one example. Monica: Love that example. And it's true, you know, there's this part I've been doing a lot of parts work too. Right. And so it's, it's that, you know, finding some aspect of yourself, that's been real kind of like closed down or undiscovered, unrevealed, and then just because, and let's face it for all of us, that's our inner child. And so w to bring that playfulness back that levity back and really focus on it and amplify it, it just, and then to see how much, like you were just saying how much joy, because when we connect to others in that way too, and we get them, we then give them permission to kind of be in that playful, creative space where, and I think when we do that, we're able to step into other realizations and revelations about who we really are, not this prescribed version. Ron: Yeah. Daniel: And even just balancing. Balancing the energies within like Ron and I will talk, we have this we're on the edge of something that we've been discussing for several months and we can't really, we haven't figured out yet or figuring out how it's going to manifest itself, but we both have experienced some challenges in life as everybody else. And anger or depression or some of these, like maybe people tend to stuff them down type of emotions or experiences or the way that those emotions or experiences or energies express themselves. And they're not really helpful for life, but we've worked some of that out to where, like our values are. We're not going to generally treat people poorly or be angry in a way that is hurtful. You know what I mean? But those energies kind of still exist. I don't have a lot of articulation around it, but there's something about, I think, acting in a show where, where the character that one of us would play, got to experience a range of emotions that we both have experienced in. But don't really experience or express anymore. And there's energy there there's potential value there. Does that make sense Monica: Oh completely. And it's that potential that is so untapped that, you know, like for, for everyone and especially, you know, in the work that you guys do in the world, there's, there's such a way that I love seeing men get super playful because Ron: yeah. Monica: You don't see it a lot. You just, you know, I think men, you know, are inculturated, like so many women are to kind of have these masks wear these masks, play these roles that are not life-giving are not nourishing and are not heart-centered Daniel: Your experience of, of our podcasts. I don't know what it was, but you would, you would describe us as playful. That's a huge compliment. Monica: Wow. Yeah. Well, you, you also described yourself as playful in, in the, um, one of the questions I had asked you. I think it was you Daniel, that one of you said you were playful. Daniel: Yeah. You know, I, I value that a lot and it's taken time to rediscover. Well, Monica: Here's the thing, even your exploration is playful, right? There's different variations on playful. But when I see men explore to me, that's playful. Ron: Cool. Totally. It's an inter I mean, I, if, if we could go back 10 years from right now and interview Daniel and I, 10 years ago, I don't think we would have been as playful. I think there was a part of us that was like trying to help them, trying to find our way through unmanaged effort and discipline. Like we, we knew that those were required, but we didn't know how to, how to handle those things. Like we didn't really have good relationships with either of those. And now to this point, I know our evolutions, like have not always been on the same level, but we're, we've like, come back to this point where we're, we're squarely doing life together, Daniel and I, he lives in a different city, nine hours away, but we're in context so often and a big part of our, our journey together as friends and as, as co-host, this podcast is unearthing that play. I mean that the card you read to us about the porcupine and the bear playing is, is us right now. Like we are, we are doing that in our own life, you know, by ourselves. Daniel dancing and writing and painting and other creative things like that. I'm doing the same thing with writing and, uh, just some other hobbies that I've got that I love and we're, and we are encouraging each other in this process to have as much fun as we can that there is that the play is the process that the play is the healing journey. And I it's sad. Like when I, when I talk to a client or something that is positioned to be in a really playful place in life, like a really like his job should be one of the most playful things in the world. And instead it's drudgery because his, of his, uh, position on it and the built up resentment and the lack of tools to be able to clear that, that stuff out. And the juxtaposition of that with Daniel is like, we are in real time, like trying to clear out all. Stuff that we've got of an under, you know, not understanding who we are trying to figure out how to get there. And play has been a huge tool in helping. I know for me, loving myself, squarely, loving myself. Monica: Totally. And, and, uh, just for our listeners sake, y'all know that I always choose a card, an Oracle card. Self-proclaimed Oracle junky over here, but the deck that I chose from today, uh, actually run. You guys both chose. I can't remember which one, because I offered them two decks. They chose the medicine cards to the native American deck done by Jamie Sams and David Carson. And they got the porcupine card. So I'll, I'll make sure to put a link to the previous nine medicine in the show notes. So you guys can check it out because it's really fun and it's always the best or it's always the exact card. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, and I'm going to just trust this. This is okay. Ron. I'm used to being very frank and open on our podcast about Ron's life. I hope that this goes okay. You know, that's one of the reasons Ron, you said reground your relationship with marijuana, that you know that you've been working it out. And I, it hit me when you were talking that. The reasons that I am a proponent of that being part of your lifestyle is because you are significantly more playful while you are walking and smoking a little bit when walking your dog, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's not egregious, it's not like a different personality. It just kind of emphasizes it and it seems to held and you seem a little more relaxed about it and you use that relaxation to explore ideas, creative ideas that we, we like riff on the next day. Monica: Well, and I, I just want to raise my hand too and say like, my brother grows medical marijuana. And so guess what? My Christmas gifts have been over the course of the last few years. Right. And it's so great because you know, it's something I think, you know, we can tend to get so. Our access right to that playfulness. Sometimes it's like just having a little bit of help. It doesn't, you don't have to be afraid of like, you know, suddenly making that mean that we're not, or that we are something that we're not, or vice versa. It's just, it's that it's whatever we need to kind of access that play. It's it's like, again, it's the exploration of certain things and finding out like, what, what is here, you know, what's available in this place. And I think experimentation with all of these things are what, what the world is asking for right now. Actually, Daniel: When we were speaking with Heather Roddy, have you heard of how the rally, the Roddy method Monica: Familiar? Yeah, Daniel: She's awesome. You would get almost guarantee you would have a great conversation with her and she cruised over onto our show and then replayed us on her show, which was awesome. We talked quite a bit about marijuana and the role in the life, but it wasn't really about marijuana. It was Ron's statement was kind of around not feeling whole or if, if he needs a smell, if someone needs a smoke, he's whole, without it, I do, I need that. You know, it's that kind of thinking. And I, and I get that. There's something there though that if you just keep taking that, it's like, well, I need to eat to, you know, eat, you know, Where did the, the psychological psyche needs stop and the physical needs, you know what I mean? There's still needs. Monica: I do well. I love why I love what you're pointing to, because this is the way I hear it. I had breakfast with a gentleman on Sunday and he said something really interesting. He said, I think we owe it to plant medicine that any of us are conscious at all. Ron: Yeah. That's a properly strong, good statement. Yeah, it's helped me. Monica: Yes. Because there was a way like recreationally. I did things that, you know, if my mom is listening right now, yes, I did. You know, all these recreational things that, yeah. You know, they were maybe pretty iffy back in college, but as an adult, I can be much more discerning and for different reasons and actually doing plant medicine journeys, you know, is a big part of, I think so many people who are exploring in the spiritual realm and doing that in a way, of course, that is to access, to be with, to expand. And so to your point, Daniel, you know, I love that Ron: We had a great time right now where. The mindset around this kind of stuff is, is more towards healing transformation, access to parts of ourselves that we wouldn't normally have access to being open, to being guided, being open, to being vulnerable. And I, for one, you know, and seeing this in the Portland area, I'm seeing it like back east with my friends who lead that kind of stuff back east. I mean, it is really exciting and I've been able to see not only my own life, but even in people like my mother who is in her seventies that have transformative experiences with it. And some kind of, you know, some kind of plant medicine. And I, and I were just talking to someone last night that some of the biggest breakthroughs have been through a conscious. Um, consumption of different things for the purpose of healing and found some real, like breathing room in that process. And the other part of that is recognizing how much of my conditioning from childhood taught me, hardwired me didn't even teach me hard, wired my brain and my body to feel guilt at all times. And so it's actually in that sense, been a tool to help me realize that there's no need to feel guilty. There's no need to hold on to shame and that I can have relationships with things with innocence, right? Like that was the thing that was hitting the big time of the porcupine a card at the beginning is you talking about innocence and, and I don't know if it was before we were talking or at the beginning of this conversation, but those parts of us inside us, like, I, my, you know, my name is Ron, but I had inside me. I have little Ronnie, Ron, Ron, Ronnie. Uh, Ron and Ronald, and there are like parts of me at different stages of life. Who, who out of fear started something to try to keep us safe and funnily enough marijuana, which used to be a very scary concept to me is now become like this part where I'm like, Getting to kind of have a conversation with all those parts and have a kind of, uh, not only state of the union, but like a, like a good old fashion, Ted lasso, like coach session with them, you know, like everybody gets to win. Everybody gets to feel incorporated and no one gets left out. Monica: That's right. And it's, it's such a great, it's such a great segue right. Into just your work with men, both of you, you know, like, so tell me, cause I know you guys do the podcast together, but I'd also love to just have you both speak a little bit more about then your individual work in the world. Ron, could you kind of give me a little bit more background on your work? Ron: Yeah. Well, you mentioned, you mentioned, uh, you put some emphasis on how many times my parents have been married and Monica: I did. Yeah, Ron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's hot. That's old Hollywood territory, right? Like my dad, I think he's matched Elizabeth. I think he either is matched or is more than Elizabeth Taylor, which was kind of the gold standard of how many you could squeeze into a lifetime. And, and then within my mother, father, aunts, uncles, including myself, cousins, there's something like 30 divorces. And I was married and divorced by the time I was 25. And I recognize pretty, uh, pretty early on the cultural, social, familial, religious conditioning and Experian hard-wiring that I, that I came up in that led to all that, that, that it's attached to those things. And in a big reason, Are you familiar with, um, the men's self-help book? No more, Mr. Nice guy. Monica: No, but I love hearing about new. Ron: It's probably one of my F my most recommended books, and it's an interesting idea. And the idea is like, I think coming out of like a post-World war II and then the baby boomer thing, and then gen X is just what I'm on the tail end of like, we saw a style of masculinity that we just decided that's, it's not conscious. We wouldn't have used these words in the past, but it's not conscious. It's a, we wouldn't have used the word patriarchal either, but now we recognize it as that kind of, that it's violent. It's not Tinder. It's gruff. It's a lot of those. More aggressive in quote unquote masculine ways of being. And many of us said, Hey, we're not going to do that. We're going to be opposite. And so we tried to be nice. We tried to be empathetic. We tried to be, to make good decisions, sound decisions. And unfortunately it kind of separated us from a, from a healthy masculinity where sometimes aggression is necessary where sometimes that kind of strength is required. And so it's kind of, you know, I, I say the opposite of a pole, what, I mean, a pole is like the north pole on the, on the. The opposite of a pole is also a pole. Yes. And so it's, it's easy to swing from one ineffective place in life to another ineffective place in life. Monica: I call it actually the south star. It's like, there's oh, interesting. Because there's that pendulum, right? Yeah. Cause we do tend to like do the whole opposite. And then what I think you're describing is so great because it's that, it's that middle path, you know, where, where the integration is. So Ron: Yeah, so, so between my parents' stuff, and then growing up in a rural town where violence was really common, I was shot up in a drive by, in high school, really violent high school, lots of fist fights. And then, you know, it just kind of carries over like working rodeos and all that stuff. Like it's, it's a thing. And I, it wasn't until I was. In my mid thirties that I realized I had cut off access to parts of my life. That would have been really useful out of resentment, towards those things out of fear of those things out of fear of parts of myself, Daniel and I used to even 10 years ago, practice a martial arts together pretty regularly. And I was a nice guy. I would like show up being a nice guy. And then somewhere in there, Daniel kind of give me a look and be like, dude, there's something in you that's that is not nice. He didn't say that, but you know, he's like you have, you have like a rage in you. And I had to actually like do a lot of work around that, like it was, it would come out in really inappropriate places. Daniel: Does it still just out of curiosity. Ron: No, no, not the way it used to at all. Not at all. Yeah. Monica: Well, and what you're describing is, is so interesting, right? Because you know, like conditioned as a, as a female to be pretty pleasing and polite. Right. And so what you're describing is that, again, that in culturation and that way that we can tend to mask what's there and to have a friend that can actually really see you. Yeah, unconditionally and call you forth, right. It doesn't make it bad or wrong, but can point to point to those shadows and say like, that's potentially also, as we, as we now know a strength, you know, an unrevealed strength, once we kind of get the courage to kind of go within and really look and to reclaim those parts of ourselves, we've abandoned along the way, because we thought they were bad and wrong or like our parents, you know, and, and to, to your point, there's a way that we have to find our own way. And so back to Cutting for Sign, you know, it's like find our trail back home to ourselves and also. To our divinity because we're both. So we have that kind of human mess, you know, that human ness. And then we also have that divinity and that magical just mystical part of us that it's like, those two are trying to find each other and meet and integrate. And I feel like that's that middle path that is available to us now that I feel is such an exciting part of our human evolution right now. Ron: I'm glad you brought that up because I call that magic. And just out of a lack of technical, you know, words on that divine part of ourself. And one of my favorite things I get to do with men is to teach them to have access to that. And, and, you know, we have to kind of decide together my clients and I like what they're comfortable with. Some people like can't, they can't handle the idea of, of God or something like that. But I think my F my friend Daniel here has done. A really good job of holding onto his convictions around this kind of thing. And then has, you know, I'm going to put, I'm going to kind of talk about you now, Daniel. I hope you don't mind, but I wrote your bio. Daniel: You answered my questions. Ron: I think this was kind of a conversation. And I had back in April, I w my family and I were living in Costa Rica for that month. And Daniel had mentioned, I think you were in, you were in Hawaii and you were kind of going through your own big journey, retracing some things from your childhood that you mentioned in the bio and mentioned before. And, and one of the things you'd mentioned was like leaning on the divine and it leaning back. Daniel: Yeah. It's like cornstarch. Ron: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: The moreyou lean on it? The more like answers back, you know what I'm saying? For such a water? Yeah. Ron: Yeah. I have thought about that so much. Like that's given me really great access to works, to use with the gentleman I work with because once they, once they kind of catch on that, that they can like lean on something and it's going to lean back and give them support things. Take. Thanks. Take off that transformation, that access to, to a D a playful version itself begins to materialize. And that's my favorite thing to see. It really is. It's one of my favorite gifts to get, to be a part of. So that's what I do as my day. Job is getting to talk with dudes and talk about their feelings and, and help them have access to livable parts and other big parts doing this kind of thing with Daniel. And, and then, you know, he and I both have great writing projects going on that have a lot of traction and, and excitement so. Monica: I can't wait. And I want to, before Daniel. We learn more about your life and your work. I wanted to say that I love this piece about leaning into the divine and having the divine leaned back equally, right? Like one of the expressions that came to me once that just also sticks because it makes so much sense to me is when we align, we are divine and. It's like that alignment with the truth of who we are though, which is playful, which is imaginative, which is magical, which is levity. And the more that we actually encourage those parts of ourselves, it's like, it changes our whole cellular makeup. And, you know, I mean, I was one of those people that used to roll their eyes as soon as somebody talked about your higher vibration, but there is there, it makes so much sense to me now, how we can only really access our divinity when we're in that state. It's not like we can't call on the divine when we're in, you know, the trenches, of course we can, but we have such closer access to the divine when we're actually in a playful state when we're in a state where we're open and willing to receive. And, and that's where things start to come in and that's when. Shit gets magical. Yeah. Ron: I have a little story about that. That like is to me my example of that in my life, I think of it as like, I want to get back to this place or if I'm feeling discombobulated, like I want to get to what I'm about to describe. And that, and that was in the year 2000, I was 20 years old and I was flying to Zambia, which is the country just north of South Africa in order to, or, or I think it's two countries north of there it's on the borders and Baba and Zambia to work in a hospital and to volunteer at a elementary school and just, you know, live there for the summer and on the transatlantic flight over, uh, this was still in the days before we had screens, you know, to watch the whole flight. And I don't remember what I did. I just remember one time on the, on that flight that it was, it was night, the blinds were down. Everyone was sleeping. I was awake. I opened up my window and we were flying over. Incredible massive thunder storm that were thunderheads in every direction. And it would, the lightning would, would strike, you know, below us, so bright that you could see the sky and you could see the sea, like you could see the layers of clouds with electricity, the sky above and the sea below. And that was just one of the most special things I've ever seen. And I, it, it like, wow, it felt like a kiss from the divine to me. Like I was, I was looking around the airplane to see if anybody else was noticing. And it just was like, oh my God, this is amazing. I was like, Monica: yeah. Ron: Yeah. And I went to sleep. We've landed in South Africa. We changed planes. We got on a plane to go to, uh, Victoria falls. And I'm on, I'm doing my journal. I'm doing the things that we were taught that you, you know, you were describing in your, uh, newsletter of, of like you need these things to feel good. And I was doing that stuff then still do today. I was journaling and kind of just thanking the divine for that gift of getting to see that amazing thing. And I was just like this. I'm stoked. Can I cuss on here? Is that okay? Sometimes it just wants to go. Okay. I got it. I was fucking stoked about that. That shit was amazing. Daniel: Thank you for asking that. Ron: And I, and I guys, I don't think I've ever told you this Daniel, but I'm not even exaggerating before I could finish the sentence. And on the piece of paper, about how excited I was the pilot of the plane, I was on comes over the Intercom and he goes, Hey, as we start our descent into Victoria falls, air traffic, the tower just cleared us to do something I've never been able to do. So everybody moved to the left-hand side of the plane. The plane was kind of empty. There was enough seats that everybody jumped over into the left side of the plane. And the pilot did a really steep circle left-hand bank over the circle. So that as we turned left, we were like, Stuck to the windows because of how steep the turn was. But he circled this directly over Victoria falls, which is one of the largest waterfalls in the world. And, and I am not kidding. Like the it's, uh, Victoria falls is like a, a cloud factory. It just, these giant clouds coming out of the ground, you could see elephants walking across the upper parts of the falls. You could see people like it was Africa. Like it was such, I mean, it was like, I could have gone home. And I was like, I did it. It was amazing. That was the best thing. And whenever I think about access to the divine and access to the magic and all those things, like that's, that's where I want to be. I want to live right there where there's this appreciation for it that I get to enjoy. And this reciprocity from the, from the divine of going like, oh yeah, here's more, it turns out I have an unlimited gift of getting a gift of goodness that I want to give you. And you've got to be in a good place to receive. And, you know, there's a lot of adult things that get in that way. Right? Resentment, fear, shame, guilt, all those things, and kind of coming back to it is, you know, it's one of those moments. Like sometimes it's really easy and sometimes it's really hard, but I, I know when it's happening, I know when it's happening and I just like, I want more, I want to help people get there too. Monica: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love that story. And it's so true. And I love that you brought up the word reciprocity, because again, I think that that that's that natural state of give and take, you know, of giving and receiving. And I love Lynn twist. Who's a wonderful mentor of mine says what you appreciate appreciates. And so when you think about that, if you appreciate magic, you're going to get more of it. If you appreciate and express your gratitude for things, you're going to get more of that. And it really, it really has spoken to me that kind of universal law in a much different way that that really teaches me that in order to access that I have to first be kind to myself. And you were in such a state of giving to yourself in that moment. And thank you for sharing that story. That's beautiful, Danielle. Yeah. I want to dive in. Daniel: Yeah, dang it. I had a thought around, uh, around that and I zoned out for a second, but uh, Hey, you can just telepathically feel it on, Ron: I think Daniel you've your life has reflected that a lot. You've told me a lot of stories of all kinds of things that you have stepped into where it's very obvious you're dealing with something beyond yourself. Daniel: Well, what I was just going to say, uh, was that, uh, what you appreciate appreciates? One of my values is expressing things to other people like writing a letter or sending a voice memo. Stopping on the street. If you notice something and being kinda more hair trigger with a compliment or an observation that might bring somebody, some I'm not doing it to bring them joy, but it might. And Ronald and I have have played around with this in our friendship doing it. And maybe it's flirty with, uh, out any, um, uh, expectations, maybe it's, uh, observation of another male. Like I challenge myself to cover that. And, you know, just to normalize that, you know, like say, say a man has nice eyes or something, you know, it's, it's not a sexual thing. And all of that is like what you appreciate appreciates. Cause I've found that that practice opens a lot of doors and it also is like a solve, like a very healing thing on relationships to maybe longer lasting relationships. And so sometimes what I, I like to have a whiskey or two in the evening and I'll find, I'll find myself going through my phone contacts. I've I'm in such much more of a playful open place at that time we stretch in my body. It's quiet in the evening. , which is a very good thing for me. It relaxes my mind and my body, and I just find myself so willing to genuinely so express appreciation, and I always find it reciprocated and appreciated back and things. Good things come from that. So that's a way that I actually do do that. Monica: I love that you do that. I love it. And I, I want to ask you a question cause it's coming in and, and because you experienced significant childhood trauma, you breathing, Daniel: I relieve stress through deep breaths. Yeah. Monica: Well, it's interesting, right? Yeah. You just pointed to your nervous system. I too am a survivor of childhood trauma. And I think it's interesting, right? Because everybody has trauma and then there's kind of capital T trauma. And, and we know we live in a very violent and a very, uh, aggressive in a very toxic world. And, you know, the nervous system is something that has been a massive thing for me to overcome and for me to learn ways to work with it. And it's interesting, right? Because you expressed kind of a couple of whiskeys, right. You know, and being in that more and stretching your body. And now there's just ways that, right. Like I've discovered how to kind of like calm my nervous system. And I'm wondering if that's always a struggle for you. It's more like a question. Is that something that's always there for you? Daniel: That's an interesting question. And just to be clear when you ask that question and I took a deep breath. I'd take deep breaths all the time. And when I'm partnered, especially my partners, it's kind of one of those like checks on like a box to check in a, in a way as like how they're going to respond to that. Because it's very easy to take personally. I don't know if you've noticed this around me, but my partners, when I'm in partnership, they notice it and they're like, oh my God, did I stress you out? And it's like, no, this is regulation. I do it probably once every five minutes. Monica: And the reason I asked you is because I do it. So what I'm recognizing in you is, Daniel: Yeah. That's not a response to you asking that particular question. That was just a coincidence of time. Wow. Monica: I know. I know. And it's just funny that it came with that when I asked that question, because it's all in this space. Daniel: Yeah, my last, uh, my, one of my last girlfriends, she, it was so cool that she did because. I always get a little nervous, cause I don't want people to take it personally. Like I'm stressing it out, but I it's very easy to do that. And I get that and sometimes I am stressed out by what we're doing. And sometimes it is because of an interaction where it happens. So it's always, it's a little, it's just a little thing. It's kind of hard on my partners not huge, but my last part is she goes, I go, does that stress you out? I'm a little nervous about it. She goes. She goes, no, it's when you take a deep breath and I hear it from another room away, it reminds me of a wave breaking on the beach. Ron: That was like, as romantic as hell. That's amazing. Daniel: Oh my God. Thank you so much.You just set the gold standard. Monica: It's so true, but you know, it's, it's interesting. I often I too am a writer and I'm claiming that, you know, like I'm still practicing, claiming that, so I'll breathe now. It's my turn to be like, but you know, I, I actually wrote about. You know, a lot of what I write about is, or what comes out in a lot of my writing are the traumatic stories, right? That, that I'm still kind of processing and I've never been allowed to process. And even sometimes I'm writing the same story, but from different perspectives or different ways. And there's a way I need to revisit some of these stories in order to process all of these pieces and parts. But what I've noticed in one of the stories that I wrote about was air hunger, you know, and like when did I stop breathing? Right? And that the breath is the Hebrew word is Rouge, I think. And, and, and it means spirit. And it's this idea of like, when you lose your breath, you lose your spirit. And, and I had been not breathing for so many years. It was like my breathing because of my childhood and my nervous system was just always so shallow. It was like, I, it was, for me, it was part of the trance of unworthiness was like, I wasn't, I wasn't giving myself permission to breathe, to take up space, to fill my own lungs, to nourish myself. It was like my way, I think of making myself small, my way of, of making myself undeserving. It's just really interesting. Daniel: There's a respiration spear that, that is, think that's where you're getting to. Is that those, those are connected, which is pretty cool. And I think that for, I learned something recently about breathing. I used to be a competitive distance runner in college, and it was a big part of life, lots of breathing. And then I got lung infections when I was living in Australia and my lungs filled up and I was just breathing in about 10% of my lungs. And since then, it's been a pretty intense experience of regaining my lung capacity. And I've noticed that breathing for me. You're saying you need to breathe. It's time to breathe. That almost always starts with a full exhalation, like relaxing breathing for me is exhaling. It's not breathing in, you know, and then I started doing that. I was like, oh, and you're talking about nervous system and calming the nervous system, particularly through the body. But also through emotions has been a fucking game changer for me. Like it's changed my entire life, having access to my emotions, to be able to self-soothe calm, not just mentally, but emotionally and ergo, physically. And then those things, as you develop those, as I have developed those abilities, they can play off of each other and I can use my mind and my body or my emotions to kind of get access to the others, you know, and they've all played a part, but it did. I had this really interesting experience when I was experiencing about 10 years ago, um, severe to extreme anxiety. And I had never experienced anxiety before in my life. And it was around my mother's case. And some of those emotions coming up in purchase got reopened. It's a whole story. But during that time, when I was totally overwhelmed by anxiety, I was in, I was in a crisis and I remember being like, someone told me to tell yourself that you're safe and that's a very mental thing. And I said, so I'd say it. And I noticed that for about one second, I felt safe. And then it was like too much weight to lift and I couldn't do it and it just was hopeless. But then what happened over the next 10 years is about every three years or so, I would get into a relationship. My personal emotional issues usually come up through, uh, romantic relationships and I would get into a relationship. I didn't feel safe in. And then one thing would lead to another I'd become codependent or to attached that, that, that, and I would be in a crisis in an emotional crisis. And, but through the years I would that one second that I used to feel safe, grew into five minutes and it wasn't as hard. And now 10, 11 years later, having gone through this a few times, I can, it's almost becoming a, a state of. Like I, all I have to do is say you're safe. I don't even have to say it anymore. I can just make a choice around my emotions that were once subconscious. And so when you're talking about, so, um, when you're talking, uh, I forgot the exact question that you asked her. Oh, nervous system. It's like, I finally have access to my nervous system in a way that I didn't have for most of my adulthood. And it has completely changed my life. I Monica: love that. Now I have a question for you, Danielle, what was there somebody, um, I mean, I know you guys have been friends for a long time, but was there somebody that kind of mentored you or did you get into therapy or like, what was kind of the game changer for you that kind of started you? Daniel: Oh my God, is it, I use this term and I'm not sure it's the right term, but is it Blitzkrieg? Was that a world war II where they just decided that yeah. Throw everything at? Yeah. What does that word mean? I keep using it and I need to know. Ron: Yeah, it's the, it means lightening. Lightening war lightening strike or something. And it's basically like use everything at once let's Creek. It was the German tactic for trying to take over Europe because they were out they're out of options. So there was like, let's do everything all at the same time. Daniel: That's what I did. That's what I did and have been doing. It's just, especially when I get into crisis, it's like, and by crisis, I mean, you're experiencing emotions. You don't have, you don't feel like you have control over. They're overwhelming there. And they might lead to things like suicide, you know, and I haven't been a suicidal person in my life, but there are experiences, emotional, psychological experiences that people can have who are chronically like kind of have one foot out. We'll just push you there they're too much, you know? Monica: Yeah. I'm, I'm so glad you said that, you know, because it's, it's really true. And it's like, what I remember actually sharing with people because I, I, I was that person, like I was that person that was always, uh, I'm not afraid of death. It's living. That scares me. You know what I mean? Like I was like, this is, this is some bullshit. And people would be like, oh my God, that's terrible. Why would you say that? You know? And I, and I would be like, because it's true. Like what, what do you not get about this? And, and like, I just learned, again, like that was a really, really hard thing for people to hear. And it could to go back to like, normalizing that we do not live in, you know, we have to create safe spaces here. Yeah, that this is what we have to do, you know, is creating safe spaces and communities of people that are safe for us. And that can see us and can witness us and have hold conversations with us. And this is, again, I really believe that we're in a tremendous time of revelation, you know, in revelation that word to me, you know, I'm reclaiming that from like the biblical word. Yeah. But I also love that word for so many reasons, because it means so many different things to so many different people. You can have a revelation from the divine and you can also have kind of an inner, like apifany a revelation that kind of like now connects the dots. And for me, the nervous system is a bunch of disparate dots that are looking for, you know, uh, uh, a route that is calming, you know, that actually grounds. Yes. Daniel: 7 million years we've been in this body. And most of that time, there hasn't been most of the things that we are surrounded with all day long. Like if you take a person, in my opinion, in estimation, I don't really know, but it just trips me out. Think about taking a person from any time in that five to 7 million years passed like 3000 years ago. And you just take that body and mind and you plug them into today and they walk into a grocery store and they drive across thing. Maybe they fly somewhere. They would fucking freak out, you know? Yeah. Like our nervous systems are under a pretty much constant state of trauma, at least unfamiliar non-sequitur this doesn't link. With what created these bodies. And so I think that trauma, I'm glad it's being normalized as a term because you could probably live a very helpful life in your nervous system. Might actually be responding, keyed up enough to where you could call it a traumatic experience just by living life, these days, Monica: Just, just the trauma of life. Exactly. And to your point, I have a really hard time in the grocery store. My, my husband goes for us, you know, because like he knows, like, I'll be like literally in like, in aisle 2 I'll be like SOS, SOS. I can't do this. And then like, sometimes I come home and I'm like, no, like this, you know? And he's like go to the grocery store and I'm like, Um, it, it just, it really, you know, Daniel: That's cool. So you're like open to and sensitive to the real experiences that are going around you. And I don't, I hope it doesn't sound like it, but I certainly hope that you've met you, that you don't feel any shame or strangeness around that, because I think that's actually a more honest experience and interpretation of an interaction with what's really going on. Monica: And here's what I've noticed is my husband and I have very different nervous systems. Right. And if I look at the way he grew up, it's clear why he's so regularly. Okay. Now, does he get overwhelmed? And does he experience trauma? Of course he does, but his nervous system is much more adaptable and is much more kind of in a state of groundedness and calming. And I believe that's because of his experience growing up. And he just had very stable, very consistent, very loving and non kind of, I'm not going to say that any family isn't crazy-making to some level, because let's just face it. They all are. But I think that there was less of that for, in him, in his world. And so I think for me, and I don't know about you guys, but in Daniel, do you have children. Okay, because I know Ron, you have two yeah. Just the inner child, which then you have a bunch. Right. So right. But this, you know, this, this whole realization for me, actually, I started having kind of like these hallucinations or flashbacks as my kids were growing up. That's what forced me to kind of start dealing with my trauma because I was just going to repeat the pattern. Like that was really clear to me. Ron: Yeah. Yeah. We're we're destined did repeat it unless we disrupt it. That's right. The other thing I was thinking of is, is the, one of the tricky things about our nervous systems is that whatever our set point is for feeling normal, Notice, I didn't say safe or in danger. It's just whatever it feels normal and our nervous systems, like we tend to try to re come back to that. So if you grew up in chaos, like you tend to try to create more chaos. If you grew up in drama, you tend to want to invite that into your life. And then, and then it is, and then it becomes frustrating, overwhelming, and you, and you experienced burnout, all the other, you know, anxiety, depression, like everything, right. It becomes too much. And then when you try to disrupt that and have to rewire the nervous system over time, I mean, Danielle talking about blitzkreiging, like he hit that point at some, at some moment in his life, I've hit it at different points. And we say, you know, it's time to deploy every tool in the tool belt, like the full Batman menu of things, and nothing gets left out and everything has to be used. And some tools are better than others, some days. And some others aren't. Uh, but it's. It has to happen. Otherwise we will stay stuck in whatever we think is normal. And if that is because you grew up with parents who maybe even to this day are still functioning, alcoholics, and have a way of relating to you that is demeaning and cruel. Like you somehow will attract that to yourself. And you will somehow like continue to play that same role. And it takes a tremendous amount of self-reflection and energy to stop that. And to begin to find one tool at a time, one little thing at a time, one breath at a time, one waving one wave, crashing out a time to unwind from that. And it's, it's it's, I don't think it ever stops in some ways of fixing it, but it gets easier and it gets more enjoyable and more fun. I think there is more magical. Exactly. Daniel: And plus, like, I'm a huge proponent of this. And that state, sometimes this experience of whatever, each one of us call it, becoming more authentic, be balancing your life, harmonizing, aligning, becoming more authentic. You know, sometimes it's not. So I want to say just sometimes, but I tempted to say there's always failure. Like constantly failing. I'm constantly struggling. I'm constantly like, it seems to be it's sometimes I'm overwhelmed and I'm just nothing's working. And that during that time, I think it's really important to know that during that time, at least in my experience that you're still succeeding in. If you, if you choose to re re-engage with something, like, for example, I want to do several things professionally and it's hard. It's hard because. It's hard enough to do one art or, or to, you know, and to engage with five is intense. And also I just happen to like value taking care of myself and the things, the life that I'm responsible for my environment and my car and my belongings, you know, my friendships and my clothes, my bike. I try to, I don't try it. All of that, you know, the outward and the inward looking, looking good, feeling, good, feeling alone, feeling authentic. It's just a lot to do, you know, and I don't really know how to do it all. And I'm also kind of shit, you know, like I want to fuck off and I want to like waste a day and I, you know, have all of that. I want to be lazy. I, you got to recognize all of those parts of myself too. And so it's like a years, long decades, long process of ever refining this thing of like a good day. And I just feel, it feels like trench warfare. And I don't mean to male it up like that a lot. It's, it's beautiful too. It's, there's a constant state of enduring and just cocooning in this and rooting around in this process of, of like becoming, you know, I've got no plate work place where it has become. More joyful significantly, but that came on the heels of 15, 20 years of like getting after it and failing. Monica: I really do. I was just going to say, I can really relate to what you're saying. And the reason again is, is because I think again, there was just a period of time that I was acutely aware of my own suffering. And I think my, my mindset right. Was like, this is so hard. This is so hard, you know, like all of it just felt so hard. Yeah. So overwhelming, so fucking impossible. And so, you know, again, I, I G I go back to kind of like giving us ourselves permission, right. And there's this way that there's our societal conditioning and kind of all of the trappings and all of the trauma that comes with it. And then there's the actual masculine and feminine energy. And I feel like, you know, there's such a great blend of that masculine and feminine energy that comes in. In for the healing time, right. Where we start to kind of get clear the chaffe from the wheat, right. And start to understand once all the kind of residues shakes off what those two energies are really all about, you know, and, and allowing those energies to, I always kind of use that infinity sign because they're always dancing and playing, and you're always looking to find out which element is missing, because I love that connecting part on the infinity sign. I call that like that moment of creation because you need. Both of those energies to create anything new. Right. And so even if you're in a moment where you are like recognizing something's missing and like I'm, I'm in the trenches and you're kind of calling forth that those energetic principles and like, which element am I needing right now to kind of get back in flow, get back in alignment. It's it's constant is my point. It's constant. Daniel: The significant step of my own journey was Ronald and I have really gotten into independently and together. The just the hero's journey idea, Joseph Campbell at the time. And I was like, that's, that's the art, that's the way, you know, that's the way for a lot of years, get into their face, your battles thresholds get helpers. Like it just felt like it encompassed everything. And then we had this guest on our show, Tracey Hunter, and she's a schema therapist at an Australian. Ron: Dr. Tracy Hunter. She's a delight like you will need to introduce it to her. She is amazing. Daniel: Well, more than a delight, she's just. She's bad ass. She has that. She exists in that infinity cross, you know, like she, anyways, that's another subject, but Ron: Well said, man. Yeah. Daniel: She introduced me to the feminines journey. Monica: The heroine Maureen Murdoch. Yes. Daniel: Well, I didn't never heard that. And it really was like, someone is like, I was trying to exist in half of the thing the whole time and someone just put the other half and to be honest, it's probably more like in another year I'll get a whole nother dimension going over here and continue to do that. But it was a huge step for me. And it had to do with chilling the fuck out. And knowing that that's not just taking a break, that's actually, incubatory cocooning vital part of things and it has to do with endurance and I loved it. So it sounds like you're familiar. Monica: I, well, I am. And you know, and I think, again, you talked about becoming right. It's like, it's like unbecoming from all of the shit we were taught and the becoming process is so beautiful and starting to bring in, um, I had an episode with Ian McKenzie and it was all about kind of the missing mythologies. Like we're not, we're also kind of not taught that we have all this wisdom to draw from, and it's kind of hiding in plain sight, but you know, I want to Daniel, I want to just ask you another question and I'm, I'm like, damn, we're at time. And so we're, we're, we're going to have Ron: to do this, keep going. It's up to you. Monica: We'll keep going for a little bit, because I love this conversation. And because also I just feel like there's no, I'm the boss of this damn show, right? Yeah. So I w I wanna, I want to dive in a little bit about, you know, the book you're writing and your work in the world, and I know you're doing the podcast too. So tell me, tell me more about that. Daniel: Yeah. Um, I mean, my work in the world, that's an interesting way to phrase it and I, I appreciate that. It, it depends on what level you kind of go from my work in the world is to take the, my values and show up, you know, for, for myself, because then my teacup fills up and it overflows and I have something to offer, you know, like, so that's my work in the world, but to answer your question more, literally I'm a painter. And so I'm an artist and it would be to live my values. Go on the adventure, what that looks like unthread the tangles of my life and start to create something beautiful. And then through painting and writing, and honestly just, just conversation, you know, would be to express that adventure, share that adventure, you know, because I have lived a pretty awesome life and I still have hopefully decades and decades yelling, you know, it's just like, holy shit. You know, I've got, I got this, I got split a blessing gift to have lived what I've lived and arrived to a place of. Like, I really feel like if I had this. I feel like happy and healthy, you know, and Ronald knows like I'm a wreck in some ways, like my body and my mind, you know, but it's, it's all getting put into perspective and I feel really grounded and secure and confident and loving and caring. I'm just like, oh my God, my teacups in that, you know? And so I just want to share that and express that Ron: He probably won't say this, but Daniel's got at this point a waiting list for his paintings and is doing a lot of commission work. And a lot of he's busy. He's a busy man and his, and that was a fun thing to get to watch unfold in his life because I wasn't fully aware of his painting skills when we were probably for the first 5, 6, 7 years of our friendship I didn't paint the firs 6 years and Then something happened. It was like this dude just suddenly, like it was like watching a fish, jump out of the water and get on a bicycle and take off like that was watching Daniel do that. Monica: Daniel, what happened. Daniel: I mean, my cheeky answer to that as I got a divorce, Monica: But you know, like hello. Right? Like there's yeah. I mean, I can relate to that from, you know, a former marriage and just, I had lost myself. Right. Like there was a way that just, I didn't have any creative, anything, and that wasn't just because of him. It was also all of what we've talked about. Just letting it all kind of manifest into then choosing a partner that would reinforce the unfinished business. You know what I mean? But yeah. And so, so great that you're, you're painting and, uh, I can't wait to take a look at your work. Daniel: I mean, I have a lot to learn a lot to learn as an artist and expressing myself and both technically, but also just it's true, man. I'm like, I have a lot to learn, but I haven't been blessed. Monica: Yeah, it Rons over here. Like, just so our listeners know Daniel: calling, I've got my little tricks to make it look like I know what I'm doing, but I, you know, I'm going, I'm going back to school, Monica: You know that you have this and that you just expressed it. It's like, you're happy. And you're like diving in. You're like, yeah, you see, you've got this and there's this whole other element or part of you to explore now and, and push, push the edges of on right. Ron: Also Daniel, like, Hey, it doesn't matter what you perceive your skill to be or not to be because the fact of the matter is people like your work enough to give you their hard earned money in exchange for your, your effort. Your creativity, Monica: You know, what's really interesting to Daniel. I'm going to go back to what you said before, which is like, I'm happy and, uh, like what a contribution to the world, just that is like, we underestimate just by being, you know, honestly that full cup that you were expressing, how, what a contribution just that is to this world. Daniel: Yeah. And you can give that any time. Like, this is what I talk a lot about, and we're kind of like my friendship, my current friendship with Ronald is one of the most, it's one of the highlights of my life in life so far, and to have someone and to be not in high school or junior high, when you have like your best friend type of situation, and we kind of experienced that now we don't even live in the same state, you know, it's very, very cool. Um, and we're one thing that we're kind of learning and learning how to do is that, oh, there's all these opportunities all day long, especially with how easy it is to reach out to people and connect and how many people that are around. To show up, to give, to offer something, to like become a hair-trigger on. If someone drops something help and pick it up. If something, if you like someone's hair, like I like it, but hit run that compliment. Like it's, it's not unconditional, you know what I mean? I do. And it's like all day long, we have that. But then within the tricky part is giving it to ourselves in ways that we need. Like, for example, one of the hardest things for me to do is to feed myself. Well, I'm a pretty decent cook. And when I host people, I love cooking for sit down, I got this here's wine. Here's something relaxed. Here's music, you DJ, I'm cooking. What do you like? And it's a joy. And I like leading things and I like putting the glass. I like the nice class for the right thing. And as like the whole thing, the big rock, I love it all. And then I look at myself like an Eden most of the time, and I'm like huddled over my counter. Eating from the pan. Like, I kinda love it and it's charming, but also it's like, bro, what? The candle? Monica: The candle. Oh my God. That is so good. It's like pencil. Right? It's like catching yourself in the act. Right. Of just like your beastiality now it's just like, could we refine this for just a minute? Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: And then swap that one time and I'll be like, someone will come over. I'm like, here's your pan of slop? Join me. This is my real world. Monica: Well, and again, there is that perfect example of masculine and feminine, right? Just like, you know, it's so good. It's so good. And it's just, and, and it's that human part of us. That's just like, whatever. And I'm terrible at that part too. I'm terrible at like, taking my care myself in some ways. Like, I, I just it's like, I want somebody to come and rescue me still dinner for myself and doing that kind of stuff. Yeah. Daniel: You feel that Ron? Ron: To be rescued? Daniel: Yeah. I've never heard that. Ron: Oh, for the fee for the first, I'd say solidly until I was until I got sober until I, well, until I stopped drinking, I should say. And it was, uh, eight years ago and in February. Monica: Okay. Congratulations. Does that contribute, Ron, does that contribute to kind of, you're being really careful about substances? Ron: Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And judgment by the way, too, right? Like judgment against myself to go off. I used to call myself sober. Now. I can't because I have not, I, I don't, I happened to not drink now, but the work that I did in there and, and continues to this day and is good. But I was going to say about that. I had something to say. Daniel: Uh, well, I was asking about, uh, dammit. Now I forgot. What do you have? I Monica: forgot. Ron: Yeah. Thank you. Well, well done. Yeah. Appreciate that. Thank you for rescuing me. Daniel: Three of us, one of us is listening. Ron: I realized then I realized then no one's coming for me. No, one's gonna, no, one's gonna come and fix me. My, you know, I had two wives at that point, it was married, you know, I'm gonna make second marriage. I had kids and none of those things I thought were going to somehow automatically autocorrect. My course, uh, we're working, you know, no matter success or work or job titles or any of those things were happening. And, and I was numbing out pretty good until I wasn't. And then when I wasn't and really began to feel my feelings and allow myself to experience all of the, the confusion and discomfort and fear and all of that stuff, I realized, oh, this is. This is my time to step up into this. And I don't look for that anymore. I mean, I, I tend to try to get, continue to put myself in situations where I think like there, the option is failure or success and, and sometimes people come and help and that's really fun. I really enjoy that. And it's really great. And sometimes it's just a measure of my own, my own stick to it in this, in my own journey. And I think Daniel mentioned this earlier about a new relationship with failure. I've had to realize, and I think some of our, our last couple of guests come from the rock climbing world, which is where I spent a lot of time. They have a really beautiful relationship with failure, like a real embracing. Embracing a failure as part of the process and part of the joy of, of the process of life. Like you'd think that the pinnacle moment of a climber's life would be at the top, but it's not, it's the start and stops of the same thing over and over, trying to get stronger, trying to get past your fears. And I had so much judgment over failure for so long that it, that that was stopping me. You know, my, my son, when he was a little boy had, um, you know, we were thinking about, he had a lot of problems in class because he would get his done work early and then be a cost cloud. And he's, he's like actually funny and go figure. Yeah. And the, and they tried to get us to have them skip a grade. And then we went into the whole like gifted and talented thing. And one of the things that they had said in there was a. You know, one common thing with kids that experienced this kind of deal is that if they can't do it perfectly, they can't do something perfectly. The first time they just won't, it just won't happen. And I have experienced a lot of that in my life. I'm not saying talented or gifted, neither of those things, but I had a lot of judgment over that kind of deal. If I couldn't do something really well, or if it was really hard, I didn't want to do it. I wrote a, a screenplay in the, um, I don't know, 13 years ago or something. And it was for a guy from like a well-known Hollywood guy who had a lot of success. We had gotten real MacGyver. Yeah, he did. He created MacGyver. I love that part of that story. And we connected and got re you know, it was just a lucky kind of thing. And I, and he asked me to write a screenplay and I wrote it and my brain was unable. To have any standard less than this has to be a Oscar award-winning screenplay in one go. That is the only option. That was the only way my brain could get around that. And I wrote it and he was like, Hmm, interesting start. You know, like let's, let's do this a few more times. And, and I didn't understand that the average screenplay that makes it right. Cause there's Mo more, that don't weigh way more than dumb. That makes it, it goes through an average of 11 rewrites, full rewrites, and I didn't have good. A good relationship with failure. And, and I think that's a big part of my healing journey is, is understanding one, no one is going to come to rescue me. I'm in charge. People will join me if I need help. Like if I need help, I can ask they'll come divinely and physically or all the above. And the other is like, sometimes things are just really hard and you gotta work at it over a long time. That process is part of the gift of healing and transforming and being the better person you want to be. And I wish I had known that in my twenties, but I, you know, I'm 41 and get to have a different relationship with. Yeah, Monica: Well, and, and it's not that we're not kind of told because I, I do remember kind of hearing, right. But I couldn't hear it. I couldn't really hear it. And I think too, that that really is a testament. How to, in terms of how strong our subconscious is and you know, that what I love so much about this conversation. Well, it's so many things, but I'm recognizing because the two of you are so open and so emotionally relational and connected to yourselves. What I'm actually noticing here, which is so great is that unlike mental note, men also have perfectionist tendencies like women. We tend to think that that's like our, our deal. And it's actually it's. We were talking about this in the last episode, in the beautiful you episode, that men also struggle with concepts of beauty and struggle with their looks and their appearance and their identity and their identity tied to something. And really, I think all of us in this human struggle and normalizing the human struggle and understanding that it's through conversations and normalizing and telling these personal stories that bring these, you know, just all of these. Human just human things to the surface. That that's how we actually. That's the biggest gift I think we can give to the world is our own personal story and our own personal struggles. That one for me is big too, because like I was, I always use the definition of, um, or the metaphor of like, why was it that I, you know, like first time I pick up a racket, I think I'm supposed to be Serina Williams, right? Like, it's like, I can't, I can't get it the first time or even the sixth or the 10th or the 20th time, you know, like, where did this, where did this come from? This high bar? You know? And of course that's a bigger conversation for another time, but I'd love to have it with you guys because, because I think, you know, all of these things that are again, hiding in plain sight are these great fertile territory for really rich discussion that I think people walk away from just being like, I'm not alone. You know, I'm not alone. Daniel: Quick note on that. We just talked Babsi Zangerl she's like. The best female all around climber in the world. And for some insane reason, she came and talked to us, I guess. That's great. Ron: She was great as she's, you know, she was nine, the 2019 national geographic adventure of the year, the best climbers in the world, call her the best and say, but she's so quiet. It's hard to notice her. And she due to those, those claims pretty hard with us, you know, trying to like deflect. Daniel: She was like, get out of here with intro bio, bio writing, master like fucked it all up anyways. But long story short, I know we're past, but I just really quickly, what I gathered from her, the most important thing was her relationship with failure. And there's this little comment. It wasn't even the podcast. It was in the national geographic article written about. They had, she was talking about this climb. She was trying to do. And long story short, she had tried for three days and she couldn't get this one move. And she talked about how previously in her life she had thought there was a rule and I hope I'm not misquoting, but the gist was, there was kind of a rule around if you couldn't get the move after three days, you gotta, just you're done. You can't do it. Ron: You're not ready for it. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah. But what she noticed was after three days, she was slight, it was slightly less challenging. She still couldn't do it, but it was a little bit better of a place. And I talk about this thing called Kairos time a lot, which is a different way of looking at time. And I actually created my more, my own little version of this. Cause Kairos time is even some different button, long story short. If time is an illusion and those three days didn't pass. And you're what you actually are as you're on that mountain at that time. Around that, that, uh, pitch at that time and you and your, where you are on that. And it was hard. It was easier. It is easier now than three days earlier. And I feel like that's the adventure that's life is screw this time thing. How old you are. There are things incrementally better, even if that incrementally better is after a year. And if they are Chico, Monica: Keep going. I love that. And I love that you brought up that time cause the, the Kronos, right. And the, yeah, Daniel: yeah. Monica: I mean, again, all of these, these missing, right? These missing concepts that then kind of create that whole bigger picture that is just like the apple you want to take a bite of because it's so amazing. And it's so just, I don't know. There's, you know, there's, again, back to the magic, it's like that for those people that haven't. Discovered that there's this whole other side, right? There's this whole other aspect to living our lives. And I think sometimes of course, we're talking about multiple different aspects, but what I call that is what's hiding below the surface, right. That if we're willing to go within that, that's where we make all of those discoveries of all of the things that have been missing. And that is that where that connection to the divine starts helping you. Put everything into wholeness and helps bring it all together for us to kind of have a vantage point suddenly where it all starts to make sense. And if so, if you're listening to this episode today and you've been able to be a part of this incredible conversation and you're still looking, right, you're still kind of seeking part of the, part of the trick of it is that it is really hiding in plain sight. And so sometimes, you know, I just tell you to, or as Morgan would say, soften your gaze, right. Um, and that's, that's Ron's wife and you can learn about her work as well, but I just want to thank both of you really. It's just been such a delightful conversation and any, any place you, you guys want to lead our listeners to go and listen and learn more about you, or Ron: Search for Cutting for Sign. Any, any place you look for your podcasts. And that's probably the best place to go. And then. You know, from there, you'll be able to find us pretty easily. Daniel: And then Monica, you're going to be on ours next week. Ron: I can't wait. I hopefully can make it like part to this conversation. Cause this is, this is a, I think you said you were talking about it earlier, but I think before you press record about something expansive, you know, there's a feeling of expansion in this kind of conversation. And I think there's a feeling of, of new possibility and, and generative generative outcome, right? Like it's good for you. It's good for your listeners. It's good for Daniel and I as individuals and as a team and for our listeners and that's, I am into that. I am so into that. Everybody wins. I'm so into that, this is we're all in the healing journey together and we're reflecting. Such great parts of ourselves back to each other. Right. When we hear our story, we hear each other's stories. We get to reflect back how that's helpful and beautiful and wonderful. And, and finally, we hear something good about ourself from outside of ourself, which hopefully confirms the thing that the inclination, the inkling that we have, that we might be good. We hope to be good. Monica: So good. I just stare all of us to claim that moment by moment. And so, yeah, we will put, you know, the links in the show notes and until next time more to be revealed, We hope you enjoyed this episode. For more information, please visit us@jointherevelation.com and be sure to download our free gift, subscribe to our mailing list or leave us a review on iTunes. We thank you for your generous listening and as always more to be revealed.