[00:00:00] Stephen: Oh, well, this was just a lovely podcast, uh, just to be able to talk about the things that allow for pause in life, the quietness in life, the importance of recognizing that we're not all the same. We're not all, you know, these outgoing, extroverted, uh, uh, people. And we don't all need to be, even though the world seems designed for this.

[00:00:19] Um, Pete is such a lovely, reflective, um, human being, and I think we need more Pete in the world to remind us of the importance of everybody's voice, within our environment and in the world. That was a lovely, lovely, lovely way to spend, um, a Friday morning. What a pleasure. Thanks Pete. 

[00:00:36] 

[00:00:36] Stephen: One of the things that I'm interested in, in Peter's, the idea is, is that we've created a world that is not for quiet people. Haven't we created such a, a, an, an arc, not anarchic, but a very busy and loud world, isn't it?

[00:00:50] Pete: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the, the, the world, the, the world of work especially is biased towards, uh, more socially energetic people or extroverts, and has been for quite a long time. I'm not so sure it's always been that way, but certainly in the world of industry, in this, in, in the world of, of, um, higher and father education, especially in the States to begin with.

[00:01:13] In the twenties, there were some pretty calculated decisions made about who got the places at uni and who got the best places at work. And it was a decision to employ mainly extroverts because they were the ones that were deemed to do the fastest, most efficient kind of rapid results thinking. Uh, and that's kind of held sway even now, although things are changing. 

[00:01:38] And I think it's also built into the language really. If you look even at, at, uh, dictionary definitions of extrovert and introver. Definitions of extroversion are generally very positive. You know, life and soul of the party. Gregarious person gets on with people. Uh, and definitions of introverts are somewhat different, you know, like shy retiring, not good at talking to people.

[00:02:01] And when it's built into the language like that, it's quite difficult to shake off the people, absorb that and, and get an internal bias and, and, um, make all sorts of assumptions about people because they're quiet. And of course they're quite, might have nothing whatsoever to do with, there's a dozen, you know, dozens of other things that the end up with people being quiet in the world.

[00:02:25] Stephen: One of the things like, what, when, when you talk about introversion and extroversion, like people might outwardly think I'm quite an extrovert because I, I, I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy connecting with people. . But one of the other things I enjoy doing is I enjoy time alone. I like my own company. I get on very well myself. I'm quite happy to travel on my own. I'm quite happy to, to, to spend time in solitary, uh, disconnection from other people.

[00:02:48] And people seem to think that you're either extroverted or you're introverted and there's only sort of, it's, you're either here or you're here 

[00:02:55] Pete: Yeah. Well, I mean, we've been brought up, especially recently on social media, um, with the notion that, that there's this kind linear scale between introversion and extraversion with a thing called ambiversion in the middle, which is having a bit on a sliding scale. 

[00:03:11] I have to say, a, I don't like the labels. I think they're misleading. And B, it's not, whatever it is, it's not a linear scale. It's much more of a scatter graph. Uh, which means like people like myself who on Miles Briggs is, uh, I'm an I, uh, i n f jt, which is the most introverted it's possible to be. And yet I'll happily talk in front of a, you know, a couple hundred people live and do stuff like this very confidently because it's my happy place. It's, you know, I like being here. But I don't like intense, um, one-to-one social situations with people that I don't know. You know, I find that I'm quite shy and I struggle with that. It's funny, isn't it?

[00:03:51] Uh, so we kind of come alive. We each come alive in different places, very different places, and that's true both of extroverts and introverts, uh, which again is something that draws me away from that narrative about it being a linear model with extremes at both ends. You know, I've met some deeply extroverts and some hyper confident introverts. It just doesn't work according to the common labels, really.

[00:04:16] Stephen: It's really interesting cuz I've seen you speak, um, a couple of times and one, I see you speak, you come across as completely relaxed, extremely confident, very knowledgeable. And I always pick up on this because I'm somebody who does speaking for a living too as well. I, I facilitate workshops and I know my nervous ticks. I know what I'm feeding and experiencing inside, and I know what I'd feel like if I was in the same platform as you are and what would be going through my bodily sensations and maybe my head at the same time. And maybe there might be all this mixed up sort of, you know, funk going on inside of my head where I'm trying to get the right words out. 

[00:04:52] And yet I watch someone like yourself who just comes across as you've got the words just lined up perfectly in a slow pace, ready to come just at that moment. But that's what I'm seeing. Maybe what you're experiencing is quite different. 

[00:05:04] Pete: Well, I mean, I, I deliberately speak at a SL slow pace because it gives me the time to wrangle the words in the right order. You know, I couldn't speak quickly, cuz I'd still be thinking about it. But slow pace is part of my nature.

[00:05:18] Interestingly, the studies showed that the brain chemistry of extroverts and introverts, it's very different. And introverts and extroverts use different neural pathways and different mixes of, of neurotransmitters and neurochemicals. And one of the side effects of that is that quieter people process thought much more slowly. It takes them much longer to think through stuff. Which is a huge advantage cuz you think through things really thoroughly, but it's no good in short meetings because by the time the meeting ends and the decision has been made, you're still thinking about stuff and as a result get quite frustrated about it. So it has its benefits and it has its disadvantages as well.

[00:05:59] Stephen: That's really interesting. Um, like when you talk about what goes on, I suppose what we're doing is, is is it that extrovert that people are producing more dopamine, there's more of a reward from, from them in, in that situation? Or is, is there something else going on there?

[00:06:12] Pete: It, it's closely related to dopamine. Um, extroverted people, more socially energized people take up dopamine in vast quantities, and then when they've got the hit from it, they want even more. You know, they're seeking out that. And that's part of the reason that they, they're able to make quick decisions and they want to make quick decisions and get stuff over with, and then move on to the next bit of excitement. The next dose of dopamine, if you like. 

[00:06:39] Um, introverts get overwhelmed by dopamine very, very quickly. , which is why we need more recharge time because whilst do dopamine is essential for motivation. It can wear you out pretty quickly as well. Introverts tend to use a thing called the acetylcholine pathway, and they get the rewards through acetylcholine, which rewards longer, laster lasting slower activity, slower thinking, being out in nature, being with animals, all of the stuff that we, meditation, breathing, all of the stuff that we associate, um, with really slowing down, uh, taking a time. Um, being more restful about things. So there's a very marked difference in the way that brain chemicals are taken up by highly socially energized people and less socially energized people.

[00:07:29] Stephen: So one of the things that I did when I looked, um, well, because I've seen you speak a few times and I've, I, I, I've met you before, Was understanding that you had actually done some quite extroverted things in, in your life. Being part of a band, also getting involved in some, um, circus juggling and, and, uh, shows like that as well. Can you explain a little bit about what brought you to that and?

[00:07:51] Pete: I had a couple of childhood illnesses, which really affected me. Um, I spent a lot of time at home and away from school, and as a result, I was quite a shy, withdrawn child. I enjoyed the idea of performing, but much less so when it came to the actual thing.

[00:08:09] I used to, I performed in a band when I was at college. Um, but that was part of a much larger group and I had a relatively small part to play. I could stay in the background and, and do percussion and play my bass guitar and stuff like that. That I could cope with. 

[00:08:24] But I did realize that. I wasn't very confident in my physical domain. I'd never been good at sports because I'd never really been allowed onto the football or rugby pitch very much. And somebody taught me how to juggle and I got this instant kind of reward from a and an instant boost in confidence because it was the first thing that I'd ever done that, that was physical that I'd been really good at and quite coordinated at.

[00:08:50] And this kinda light bulb went on in my head and I thought if, if that's had that effect on me, there must be dozens of other people out there like me that would benefit from learning a simple physical skill like this to allow them much more kind of autonomy in their physical domain to make them feel less useless and more connected, if you like. Which is what led to me running workshops and, um, teaching other people those skills because I could see the benefit of it.

[00:09:19] And I've always been a, a, a natural sharer of things. You know, it's in my DNA. I love working with people. So it's not that unrelated from what I do now, actually, you know, it's just, I'm using just a different set of skills, but it's still the same enabling process, building people and their autonomy in the world.

[00:09:39] Stephen: How famous was that band? Would I, would I find them on Spotify? Would I be able to have to dig through, uh, old vinyl to get them?

[00:09:46] Pete: No, you wouldn't. Um, you'd have to do a fair amount of digging. Um, the band was called the Celebrated Artist Band. Uh, we did release a single, but nothing happened with it really. It was great fun, you know, it was a fantastic experience, but quite short lived. Um, and, and I was very happy with it at the time, but had no, uh, no real ambition to be Aho uh, a rockstar.

[00:10:08] Stephen: I, I kind of like the, because I like music a lot, but I like the idea of being part of a band. I always have this sort of fear of being on stage, just being the only artist on stage. And I like, like how somebody who is the, the sole focus of attention. Like, say, Ed Sheeran isn't a good example of that. He's somebody who's just him and on, on his own on the stage. Everybody's looking at him. There's nobody in the background to be able to help with, you know, doing the guitar solo or playing the keyboards and that kind of thing. And I just, um, God, yeah. I like the idea of being able to meld into the background and have my little bit.

[00:10:38] And this brings you back to the whole idea of like, where like, you know, our experience of the way we see the world comes from, like, uh, it might go back to families. And it might go back to, I, I know I've, I think it's Oliver James, I've read, read some of his books and he talks about, um, the idea of our positioning in the family can also dictate our experience of the way we see the world. Do you think that's, that also is true when it comes to where we are in this space of extroversion, introversion, quietness?

[00:11:04] Pete: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, how we perform socially is determined at a very early age, and some of it actually is part of our genetic makeup. If we've got introverted or quiet, uh, parents or grandparents or great-great-grandparents, that comes through in the genes to a certain extent. So there's a little bit of your social energy that's already there by the time that you're born.

[00:11:30] Then there's the stuff about how you socialize as a child. Was it a sociable chi, uh, house? Were there lots of people coming around? Did you learn to be sociable? Did you enjoy that Or was it a quieter household with more social rules? That said things like, don't quiet, don't, don't make that noise. You know, little children should be seen or not heard. That can kind of shape you. If there's more than one child in the family, then the natural hierarchy affects it quite a lot as well.

[00:11:58] So there are, there's a whole load of independent criteria that work together to, to kind of make a decision for you almost as to how you're gonna pop out in the world and whether you're going to be quiet or, or more socially energetic before you've even become conscious of, of yourself, of, of where you might rest in that continuum.

[00:12:20] The thing, of course, is we then go to the world of work and an awful lot of us are asked to do personality tests or do Miles Briggs, and then we end up with these labels, which organizations find really useful because they like to put people in slots, you know, and it's not the most useful thing to do, cuz it's only one set of measures. But soon as you give a a person a label like that, it absolutely limits your vision of what they're capable of and it limits their own vision of what they're capable of.

[00:12:50] You know, I wore my nft, uh, N F J T badge for a long time. I was a very proud introvert and, and I discovered that introversion wasn't why I was quiet. There was something else going on there as well. And then I thought, wow, well that labels misled me for four or five years, uh, which got me onto another train of thought that led to the major kind of research that I've done around what the, the other reasons for quiet are, uh, which led to the, uh, Quiet Person's Guide book.

[00:13:23] Stephen: Yeah, we'll get onto your books now in a second too as well. But just to come back to the workspace, I'm always thinking that, well, we know that the, the world of work is created really for extroverts and people with the loudest voice of ones that usually come up with the idea and everybody goes, yep, we go with that, and then suddenly you've gone down a path which is misguided and probably hasn't probably been thought through. Uh, and this is, this has been a constant. It's slowly beginning to change. We're begin to recognize the importance of, um, everybody's voice within organizations. And I know certainly, uh, some of the work that I do with organizations we do that we give people within the organization's thinking time.

[00:13:58] A lot of the liberating structures are very good for that. Um, certainly the 1, 2, 4 alls, um, where we get people to think on their own before they come up with an answer with something, then they get them to group up with other people and then everybody comes together for a discussion.

[00:14:12] So I think the best organizations are beginning to see that. But I think it's still been lost in many ways. I think still within even the interview process is, is an interview, is a, an activity that really favors those with the, the loudest voice and the most gregarious and the one that can actually show you that I've, I'm part of 76 different societies, football clubs, rugby clubs, and I'm the reason why I, this is the reason why you should take me on board. It's certainly a failure of the way we've, we've seen the human condition.

[00:14:40] Pete: Yeah, I agree with you. I think things are changing slowly for the better, and it's interesting to see who's actually leading that. And it's not the people you would expect. It's in fact, the bigger corporations have clicked onto the fact that for decades, they've been recruiting in their own mold. They've been recruiting basically, you know, white middle-aged men with a particular type of background, and wondering why they were getting the same types of decisions made and the same structures forming. 

[00:15:10] And now they've realized that what's actually required for the benefit of the bottom line, and I mean, let's be fair about why they're doing this. They're not doing it entirely out the goodness of their heart. They've realized that the more diverse range of people they recruit, the broader the range of skills and the broader the variety of really good decisions that the then get brought into play in the workplace. 

[00:15:34] So they're actively now recruiting from a much more diverse range of people. And they're changing the recruitment process to include plenty of preparation time, the interview, the questions upfront, time to think about and discuss the questions before the interview, the interview itself, and a follow up process.

[00:15:54] So it's a much fairer and, and actually a, a longer arc of decision making that allows quieter or, or neurodiverse people a far greater chance to show the best of themselves and really have a fair bit of competition in the recruitment process. That, that lifts my heart somewhat. You know, when I hear that going on and I see those adverts appearing and people actively talking about it. Because there's the, the nugget of fairness beginning to arrive in there.

[00:16:26] And then accompanying that some of them are also adopting better structures for meetings that follow the same arc, which more preparation time, agendas in advance. Time to discuss what's going on in prep material to bring into the meeting. And then time afterwards for folk to think before the decisions made/ and actually holding back the decision process to allow for everyone, introvert and alike to complete their thinking process and come to the best possible conclusion before the decision's made. To me that's a wonderful thing to see, and it's certainly the thing that I advocate now in my workshops with, um, organizations who are actively looking at discussing a fairer kind of deal for quieter people in introverts and neurodiverse people within the workplace structure.

[00:17:13] Stephen: Which I think is only helps to build not only greater diversity within teams, but also greater resilience within teams. Uh, I think of all the great people that we have sort of, um, not taken into roles in organizations are the great ideas that have not been accepted within organizations simply because of the process that we have that the loudest voice, um, or the quickest voice is the one that we go with all the time.

[00:17:36] I, I know that a number of years ago in the Houses of Parliaments, they wanted to actually, John Bercow was involved in this, uh, the idea that they wanted to create a more diverse staff of people within the organization. Cause it was pretty much of those educated white middle class people that came to work for the Houses of Parliament, and nobody else was actually applying for the jobs cuz they said, there's no point in me applying for there. This is not a place for me.

[00:17:58] So, so what it is, they advertised the job but didn't tell where the job was for. So they didn't say, this is for a position within the Houses of, of Parliament as a, as a member of staff. And they brought them to an offsite place and they brought all these people into the room. And then they explained, we didn't tell you this, but this is for a role, for the, for, for a position within the Houses of Parliament. And then a lot of people began to walk out. And they had to tell them, stop, actually, hang on. We, you are the exact people that we want in these roles, but we did. because we felt that you wouldn't have applied if we'd done it the normal way, and that's how they began to, uh, create a more diverse works, uh, uh, working team.

[00:18:36] I suppose one of the things that we do it in the workspace as well is, is get people to recognize the different communication styles that they might have. Again, it's putting a label on people, but it's, it's also helping people to understand, through, I think there's about 120 questions or something like that, that some people are quite analytical and that's fine. They're slower thinkers. They may be not people focused. Um, other people will be drivers where they will be, um, very task focused and very fast, but certainly not people focused again. And some people will be amiable and some people will be expressive.

[00:19:05] And it's always a really nice, um, exercise to do with teams because, um, it's just understanding the diversity and the difference of people. And some people are just not up for small. and some people want to talk all day long, but it's recognizing that in the workspace too as well. It's kind of nice. 

[00:19:21] Pete: Yeah, yeah. I, I'm a great fan of processes that allow people to discover much more about themselves and give them the choice to bring the best bits of themselves to work. I'm not a fan of processes that pigeonhole people, and end up with leaders, putting people or placing people in specific roles without really ever discussing it with them. You know, they just use the tests mechanically. And I think there's a big difference between the two things. 

[00:19:52] You know, I mean, I, I'm not saying people shouldn't do Miles Briggs, but if they're going to do things like that, it ought to be an environment where there's the chance to really think for yourself about what it means. uh, and what you want to use and what you don't. From the conclusions that come from that discussion.

[00:20:11] Stephen: One of the things that. We are beginning to do is, is to look at the idea of having time in the day for reflection, and to be able to bring, say that 15 minutes at the end of the day to reflect on what you've just done, what and process, what's happened that day. And maybe think about what's needed for, for tomorrow. And I think more than ever that's, that's needed now in a world of just constant business and information and overload.

[00:20:35] Pete: Yeah, I mean, I, I try on, you know, we're obviously doing endless Zoom and Teams meetings and, and Google meetups and things like that. And whenever I'm facilitating a group, um, I have some inbuilt rules. um, for running the meeting. The first thing is we don't start by everybody introducing themselves and having to go that through that painful process of being exposed. Cause a lot of people just, they freeze up at that point and never, particularly in the meeting.

[00:21:03] When we've been doing a bit of input or discussion in breakout groups, I always say to people, you keep your cameras off if you want to and you don't need to participate. You know, when we do the feedback, you don't need to participate. You can just sit there and think if you want. And then when I do ask for questions, I'm just gonna sit quietly. Don't worry about me. I'm used to this. I'll sit quietly for a couple of minutes and I don't expect you to ans ask questions straight away. I'd like you just to take the time to think about stuff. And then when you're ready or if you are ready, even then just raise your hand and let me know and I'll accept the input. And if none of you want to do that, that's also fine. And I'll just wait around for five minutes and if nobody shows up within the five minutes with a response, I'll know that you're okay and you're still thinking about it. And I'll move on with the rest of the presentation.

[00:21:55] So it kind of flips this notion of there being pressure on anyone, um, or anyone's put in the spotlight. We know what happens when we ask people to put stuff in chat. You know, one person puts something in chat and then everybody else drops into comparisonitis thinking about, well, can I make a better comment than that? You know, or, or I'm an imposter now. I can't possibly top that. So folk tend to shut up and it's not a good way to structure chat discussions. There's far better ways of doing it, um, to get a more equitable response.

[00:22:28] Stephen: Yeah. One of the things that I use is, uh, is chatter fall, which is the idea of that everybody just puts their response in but doesn't press return yet. Because that's exactly what happens. The first person replies, oh my god, mine, you know, changed this, or whatever. Or I must reply like this.

[00:22:42] Pete: Yeah. I use the same technique, but call it chat storms. 

[00:22:45] Stephen: And it's just given people the I yeah. Because we have this idea, and I suppose I could come from a bias where I'm kind of outgoing and suddenly I come to deliver a problem and everybody should feel the same energy that I'm feeling and feel as, you know, ready and uh, to, to share as I'm feeling. And that is not the case. And I can't be as, uh, yeah, I can't be as obvious as to as to think that's what everybody's experiencing.

[00:23:09] Pete: We, we don't have the privilege of being able to see inside other people's heads or feel what they're feeling in their bodies and know where they are at any particular time. If you're facilitating a group of, you know, even a dozen people, there'll be somebody that's in pain. There'll be somebody that's in emotional pain, there's somebody in a state of deep worry, possibly one or two people within a grief cycle somewhere, folk that have stuff going on at home, and they've still got an argument going on in their head, you know, or they're in, in, in the stress, uh, response before they even get into the meeting. And if only, you know, if only with the gift to see that we could mitigate for that far better.

[00:23:47] But I think, I think we can understand that that's actually what's going on and mitigate it for it anyway. And make the, the, um, environment as friendly and psychologically safe as we can. And then those people can speak up as in when they want to and when they feel safe to, and, and above all supported in the speaking.

[00:24:09] Stephen: I know psychological safety is becoming quite present in many of the workspaces and people have beginning to talk about it now since Amy Edmondson brought this, uh, this idea out. I saw some, I saw some, uh, research there the other day about this. Um, and what I was saying is, why psychological safety really, really matters is cause of what goes on inside of our brain when we don't feel safe.

[00:24:29] And I think it was an experiment where they put, um, somebody into a an FMRI scanner, so we could actually tell reimagining of what's going on at the brain at the moment. And when they put them into the FMRI scanner, they play a game called cyber ball. And cyber ball is an interactive game where you're looking at a screen, but you're passing a virtual ball between the other people that you can see on the screen. The person in the FMRI scan has no connection to these other people, doesn't know the name, who they are. 

[00:24:55] So they're trying the ball between each other. But what happens is the two other people are instructed then, To stop passing to the ball, to the person in the F M I scan. He's unaware of this or she's unaware of this. And then they pass between each other. And then they look at what goes on in the brain when that person is excluded from receiving the ball. And suddenly a part of the brain begins to light up where they get very, very stressed about this situation. 

[00:25:16] And that's also in the workspace. And I suppose that's the quieter person or the introvert in the workspace. For years, this has been what they've experienced and what's gone on.

[00:25:24] Pete: Exactly. Yeah. So either they're suffering from being quiet and you, you know, feeling those fears and worries about feeling excluded or somehow other, or they respond by acting out as if they were introvert or they're told that they have to do that.

[00:25:40] I mean, in my research, I've spoken to somebody who had been forced on to, um, an assertiveness training course five times during their career. You know, and they weren't given a choice of that. Um, and that, that kind of personality adaptation, not being yourself in a workplace for a long period of time is really, really bad. I mean, the stress levels go up. It's, it's extended stress. It affects your immune system. It does make you ill in the end.

[00:26:11] At Extreme, I personally would think there's a liability, actual issue there actually for people's health if you don't look after it. And yet, so few organizations pay attention to the fact that they might be stressing somebody out, either by not supporting them properly or by demanding that they fulfill a style of working that's just not them naturally at all.

[00:26:34] Stephen: I'm thinking of even this time of the year, Christmas parties, uh, sort of forced fun, all this kind of stuff that people are expected to turn up with and be very jolly and very happy with, um, how difficult that must be for so many people.

[00:26:46] Pete: Yeah. part of the training work that I do is I, I always train with mixed groups of quieter people and their managers and leaders. And very much talk around the science of why do quiet people and how do quiet people think differently. And often when you explain the science, you see the light bulbs going on in the leaders and managers' heads and they went, oh my goodness me, I just didn't realize that actually our brains work differently. And I've just been expecting this person to snap too. When I say, come on, make a decision or think quicker, or you know what things went wrong and you're complaining, it's because you didn't speak up. Well, it's not just cuz they didn't speak up. It's cause their brains work differently and they haven't had the time to think about it, let alone make a decision, or gather the courage to elbow their way into a noisy convers. 

[00:27:34] Stephen: I'm thinking of some of the, um, uh, disasters that have happened over the years. I know the space shuttle Challenger, uh, that was a good example of the o rings were an issue there. Somebody within NASA at the time was being quite overbearing and saying that we definitely have to have this, um, this launch has to happen. And somebody was saying, well, I, I think there's gonna be a problem with the temperature tonight cuz it's January, the O-rings might be cold and if they are cold, this is gonna cause a problem. But their voices wasn't heard or they were too scared to be able to speak up in this environment.

[00:28:04] There's another interesting thing. I, I like the idea of being quiet. Uh, I like the idea of going, going away for reflection and thinking on my o o on my own. And I like try and incorporate it into the day. I think daydreaming is one of the things that we don't do enough of, and I think it's been almost, nearly eradicated. Certainly if I was a 13 year old child coming, you know, into into my teenage years. The idea of being alone with your thoughts and thinking about and using imagination, um, seems to be something that is far removed from society now compared to what we would've had before.

[00:28:38] Pete: Oh, I mean, I think our ability to have quiet time and today dream has been stolen from us. You know, uh, the, the theft of quiet space. I, I started my business in 1984. The first 10 years of my business, there was no internet. There was no email. If, if I wanted to have a conversation with a company, I either had to pick up the phone or send them a letter, you know. Everything was much slower. Response times were much slower days, if not weeks. And now we're looking at response times of people getting impatient if you haven't got back to them within five minutes. And it's such ludicrous pressure and yet it's been imposed on. And a lot of us are powerless to resist. I mean, you've got to have an immense amount of willpower to resist the, the habit forming nature of phones and tablets and computers, don't you? And we get sucked along and it, and then we get sucked into it in such a way that leaves us wide open to manipulation.

[00:29:39] There's been some studies done recently on, um, you know, if you, if you get habituated to, uh, violent news, then your capacity for expressing anger increases. We we're almost taught to become more angry people, uh, and more aggressive people, simply through the inherent nature of social media and how it works. And the kind of dopamine effect as you get excited by this stuff and then you go looking for more. It's a vicious circle. So, you know, um, it's, it's a tricky one. We can't suddenly switch off all of those things. Uh, I, I wonder what would happen if we did.

[00:30:19] The thing about Einstein, he's a huge reflector, wasn't he? You know, when he was working on the special theory of relativity, he used to go and lie down in a hayfield and he'd, he'd just kind of drift off into this liminal space. And he always used to say his best ideas came in this space of no thought, you know, where his almost asleep. And then he'd wake up and think, right, something's gone subconsciously here. And the ideas clicked a little bit further around, and then he would capture those ideas. He, he was a non journalist, really Einstein. Um, and he, he spoke about it, you know, um, but that somehow got lost along the way in terms of the dialogue around who he was and what he did.

[00:30:58] Stephen: I think we, we, we don't give ourselves enough time for reflection. One of the things that you talked about is like when you talk about this constantly being on all the time, um, like our phone's giving us notifications, email notifications coming in. Apparently what it does is it gives us a, a short rise of cortisol.

[00:31:15] And cortisol's not a bad thing. You need it to get yourself up in the morning. We need it in life. It, it, we couldn't survive without it. But to replace that cortisol to, to dampen it down, we need to get dopamine. So the dopamine is opening up the email, our checking the WhatsApp message. So our whole day is just constantly cortisol, dopamine, cortisol, dopamine, cortisone, do dopamine. Seems to be quite a lot of that going on in our experience, which, All sorts of, um, effects on our brain and our development.

[00:31:41] Pete: Yeah. Well, I mean, once your cortisol gets beyond a certain level, um, it affects the way that your brain oxygenates and it shuts down your executive function, um, and stops you being able to think clearly. So it, it's all related. And this overwhelm it is actually responsible for poorer quality thinking 

[00:32:00] Stephen: And all, all our greatest ideas in life have not come from being in a shopping mall or being at the end of a, a device or a phone. It's been in those moments where Einstein had a reflection.

[00:32:09] I always think of the example of the, um, the bullet trains in Japan. Uh, the bullet trains in Japan where normal trains just like trains we'd sit on today, uh, with just a flat nose at the front of the train. And every time that we came at 300 miles an hour out of a, a tunnel, the sonic boom was so loud that they just couldn't, um, nobody could live nearby, so they had to cancel the idea of ever having this. Till, I think it was one of the engineers that was involved in the process was, was out one day and was down by a lake and saw a king fisher and how a King fisher pierced the water with absolutely no effort or impact or whatever it might've been. And then he went back to work and said, I think I've got the solution. 

[00:32:46] The, there's a process isn't there, called dmn or Default mode Network ?

[00:32:50] Pete: It's a kind of double edged sword. I mean, I don't know a huge amount. I know enough to be dangerous about the idea. Um, but, um, default mode network is the network within your brain where metaphorically speaking, where you go when you're not tasked with something. When you're not working on a physical task, your activity, neural activity gets directed towards the default mode. Network is meant to be a resting space, really. Um, however, once you get in there, there's only a number of people who can really rest into. I think the more you get used to breathing into meditation, you can settle in there. Some people, as soon as they feel themselves going into default mode, almost as if they're going underneath the surface of the water, they're battling back to the surface to get another dose of adrenaline or dopamine or whatever because they become habituated to it and they can't rest in the default mode network.

[00:33:46] I mean, there's even a condition, um, that is to do with having a phobia of relaxation that's related to that. As soon as people try and relax, they panic, and their body goes into panic state and they fight themselves back to the surface again.

[00:34:02] I, I know that's true because I suffered from it when I was a teenager. I didn't know what it was at the time, but as soon as I read about it, I thought, oh my God, that's what happened. That's why I couldn't listen to those relaxation tapes when I was a teenager because I was so habituated to stress that I fought my way back out of the relaxation into what felt more comfortable to me, which was actually a much higher state of being stressed. 

[00:34:25] And, and that's ridiculous, isn't it? We ought to be able to access those spaces in our minds that ought to do with rest and relaxation and reflection and breathing and taking time, um, without our brains being full of thought.

[00:34:40] Stephen: I've even heard that connection back as far as being in the womb is where we sort of adapt to what's gonna happen when we come outside of the womb. I think Bruce Lipton talks about this around the biology of belief. He talks about the idea of that the child is listening to what's going on in the environment outside of the mother's womb, and then if it recognizes that it may be a stressed environment. Well, it's adapting to stress already and comes into the world in that sort of needing for cortisol state.

[00:35:04] Pete: Sure. Well, I mean, the baby gets a share of the, the adrenaline, cortisol and dopamine that the mother's experiencing. They get it in large amounts, so they can almost come out the womb with a, a bit of an addiction to, you know, those stress chemicals.

[00:35:20] I've even through some of the study I've done into working with trauma, that the very, very quiet babies are, are not well behaved. They're actually, um, dissociating. Cuz they've had so much stress in the birth process and the pregnancy, they come out and they, they sleep, um, or they stay really, really quiet cuz they're dissociating, they're trying to get away from the stress that's been induced in that period of time prior to them being born.

[00:35:47] Stephen: Wow, that's quite incredible. It actually says a lot about what goes on in our early years and how it affects the humans that we become later in life. Yeah, so creating a world where we feel less stressed is, is what you would think we as, uh, humans would have developed, but we seem to have created a world which is noisier, which is more stressful, which is more overwhelmed, which is gives us less places to hide away from the noise. We're now moving towards living in cities rather than living in, you know, the countryside and surrounded by nature. It we're really fighting the losing battle. It feels almost sometimes, Pete, doesn't it?

[00:36:23] Pete: Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm forever the optimist. I'm always looking for a, a glimmer of change in the way that people are, are thinking. And interestingly enough, post pandemic, I think people are realizing that we're missing something incredibly valuable and starting to make space for. 

[00:36:40] Stephen: I suppose when it comes to the workspace, a lot of people, when we talk about the great resignation, people changing the way they want to think about work or how long they want to work, there's more, even talk about the four day working week, cuz people want. 

[00:36:51] And this has become quite big as, as a report came out in Ireland here only, um, uh, two days ago, uh, re regarding the 12 companies that were involved in the four day working week, and, uh, all the benefits are shown to be very, very positive. I've spoken about this before.

[00:37:05] Here's something quite interesting. I do programs with school kids sometimes. And I do ask, um, an icebreaker question, uh, at the, at the very start, but I get the kids just to really talk between each other and I, and the question I ask them is this. If you had a superpower or super talent, and you woke up tomorrow morning with it for the first time, what would you wish that would be?

[00:37:25] And what's really interesting with that question is, is a lot of 'em would say the normal things like teleportation, the ability to be able to be, you know, here and then suddenly surfing in Sydney two hours later or something, or or in a second are in Italy for lunch. And other kids will pick flying and stuff like that, that you go, yeah, of course you'd like to be able to do that. Or maybe read mine. Sometimes they come up with that. But I've noticed in the last number of years that more and more kids are saying, and they'd never said this before, so I've been asking this question for 12 years, but now the kids are saying, I'd like to be invisible.

[00:37:54] And when I probe them about why they'd like to be invisible, they can't really tell me why. They just, ah, well, I'll just be invisible. And I'm beginning to connect that and think that they wanna be invisible because they just want to stop. They just wanna pause. They just wanna switch off. Cause they can't find a way to do it because of the world we've created or because of the technology they surrounded themselves with and what their expectations are.

[00:38:14] Pete: Yeah. I mean, what what is being invisible? In, invisible is, is, uh, metaphorically withdrawing from the world. It's, um, it's dissociation by another name. You know, I, I, I want to, to be apart from all of these things that are really getting in the way of me having a happy time. So in a way that's really interesting and quite disturbing to me at the same time. 

[00:38:41] Stephen: So what do you do to, um, to, to, to create those quiet spaces or to have that downtime or to, to.

[00:38:46] Pete: Personally? Uh, I have a deliberate daily practice, which begins with breathing and stretching in the morning. Uh, I'm increasingly building in quiet spaces, um, during the day. I mean, I do that as an extreme introvert. I get, you know, so after this I'll probably go and lie down for 15 or 20 minutes and just recharge. But I'll, I'll use intentional breathing. I won't just lie down. I use intentional breathing and focus on what's happening in my body. it's just proven to be totally helpful. 

[00:39:19] I walk an awful lot, probably four or five kilometers a day, uh, and deliberately out in nature with animals and water. Um, pleasant surroundings. And I'm quite happy to go and stay out a, a, a rodeo or something and just spend a moment in silent communication with another sentient being, because I find all that highly restorative, uh, and it mitigates a lot of the nonsense that ends up in my head through being online for far too much of the time, you know, four or five hours a day, some days, and I have to deliberately decide to mitigate that. And I think there's something really healthy about taking a dec decision, decision and setting an intention to do something completely different or to do nothing at all. Um, more like, to settle, to get back into the parasympathetic side of the nervous system, to rest, uh, and, and be

[00:40:19] Stephen: We need more being. Yeah, we need more of that. And how do you, how do you marry that with the idea of that you, you work for yourself? Social media seems to be something that we need to be able to do to promote ourselves. Um, how, how does that happen for the quiet person? Or what do you recommend?

[00:40:34] Pete: it's, it's enormously hard. I'm extremely privileged because I've got into a space where I don't need to do a lot of that stuff. Because the stuff that I write has become my ambassador, and the workshops that are run, have become my ambassador. And I get most of my work either through referral or because somebody's read one of the books and comes and asks me about it. But when you're starting out in, in, um, business as an introvert, uh, uh, you've got to do all that stuff and it's frightening.

[00:41:03] Um, my advice to. Find the thing where you feel most alive. You know, whether that's Twitter or Instagram or whatever, and just stick to one thing or, or LinkedIn. Be active in the space where you feel you come alive and you're getting some interaction and, and some great feedback from it. And don't bother with anything else to begin with. 

[00:41:23] Stephen: Fantastic. You've got two great books. Um, the second one, the Art of Shouting Quietly. Can you tell people just hearing this for the first time that there is a book called The Art of Shouting Quietly. What, what are the, what's the premise for, for that book?

[00:41:36] Pete: The Art of Shouting Quietly, which is published in 2015, and much to my astonishment sold in 15 countries. it was written as a book, um, it's called The Art Shouting Quietly, A Guide to Self-Promotion, promotion for Introverts and Other Quiet Souls. Now it's the other quiet souls that I'm really interested in. I think introverts are a subset of that. And that was a very simple, and I found out actually a very effective book for people that wanted to think about ways of, um, getting their ideas across without selling in any way, shape, or form. That was the premise for that one. And then things have evolved a lot between that and the most recent one.

[00:42:16] Stephen: Yeah, A Quiet Person's Guide to, to Life and Work, which is, uh, something that I found really, really interesting, uh, specifically when it comes to work and the things that we can do. And I know today is was called the Wow at Work podcast, but I'm just really interested in the whole idea of, of quiet too. And, uh, the fact that we don't have enough quiet in the world. We don't allow, allow ourselves enough time for this. 

[00:42:37] I've just read a, a brilliant book with, uh, Sir Ranulph Fiennes called Cold, and obviously he went on expeditions where he actually went on solo expeditions into the Arctic Circle and I went, there's nowhere quieter or more lonely or more on your own than a place like that. But I find it fascinating that he would enter into that sphere and go and be, and, and be comfortable with that. And actually, when he wasn't in that sphere, he would actually have pangs of needs to go to say somewhere like that to be able to, uh, sit with him. We just don't seem to have enough of that in the world.

[00:43:10] Pete: No, no. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. We need more, more space, more openness, more quiet.

[00:43:16] Stephen: How can we find out more about you, Pete?

[00:43:19] Pete: Quickest way to find out more is, uh, go on my LinkedIn profile, Pete Mosley, that that's always up to date with little posts and bon mots that I put out there. Um, not much in the way of sales stuff. The books, I think, uh, next I do have a website, but I don't use websites very much anymore, you know? Uh, so I think that the, um, you know, if you want to delve deeper into my thinking processes, go and get the Kindle of the, the Quiet Person's Guide and that'll bring you up to date with what's going on in my brain. There is a paperback version coming out next year, which will be a second edition with more material in it. Cause I'm constantly thinking and constantly innovating around the ideas. Um, but for now, that's probably a digest of, of the inside of my brain As it stands at the moment.

[00:44:10] Stephen: brilliant. And you can actually download a copy of that, uh, really rapidly, um, and it just comes straight into your inbox. And then before you know it, you're reading it, um, on your own, in your own space and time. Pete, listen, this has been wonderful. This has been what a wonderful way to spend a Friday to be able to talk about, you know, the, this need for pause in life, in this frantic, in this completely switched on completely manic world. We need more people like yourself expressing the importance of allowing those quiet voices to be heard. I wanna say thank you so much for this. This is brilliant, and thank you for being you

[00:44:44] Pete: Sure. Well, and, and you for being you cuz this wouldn't have happened without you. it's just nice to sit with a, another soul who's deeply interested in the same topic and chew the fat for 40 minutes about it. And, um, I'm sure that, you know, our audience will find us. There's loads of folk that are interested in this stuff and, um, it, it's fantastic you've provided this vehicle to get those ideas out there. So thank you very much.