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[00:00:00] Stephen: So I'm a big advocate of the shorter week, working week. You know that, and it was almost three years ago to this week on a cold winters evening that I made a 200 mile round trip to see this week's podcast, Guest. I wasn't aware of anybody else championing the four day week in Ireland. So it was a breath of fresh air to hear Joe O'Connor share his vision of a new way of working.

[00:00:17] And on that winter's evening, Joe was talking in his capacity as a member of the union for us. Since that day, Joe has joined Four Day Week Global and not for-profit community established by Andrew Barnes, who is a Guest at one of my Happy Workplace conferences. And they provide a platform for like-minded people who are interested in supporting the idea of the four day week as part of the future of work.

[00:00:36] So Four Day Week Global, the advocate for the 100 8100 model, you've probably heard about this before, a hundred percent of the pay 80% of the time, but critically in exchange for 100% of the productivity. So people transitioning from working five days to working four, they're getting the same amount of work done.

[00:00:53] Joe is now a director of the Work Time Reduction Center of Excellence in Toronto, Canada. And in this capacity, Joe shares today putting in place ways to signpost when team members are in deep work and focusing on the drivers of results rather than the amount of effort. The idea is to get good work done and then simply go home.

[00:01:14] Welcome to the Wow at Work podcast.

[00:01:16] Joe Connor, you're very welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:21] Joe: Thanks very much Steven. It's great to reconnect on this subject after, uh, after so many years.

[00:01:26] Stephen: I first met Joe and this was in January, 2020. It was down in Limerick, it was a road I found really difficult to find, but I got there eventually just in

[00:01:35] Joe: You and everybody else.

[00:01:36] Stephen: Yeah, so I, I'd heard that there was a talk about the four day week, which I was really excited about, and it was the first talk I'd heard about that was going on in Ireland. Maybe it was the first time I'd seen it anyway, so I drove down that night. Saw you speak, um, Brinley about the four day week and the possibilities of it.

[00:01:52] I saw, I think it's, is it Margaret from ICE training in Goway also spoke about they had implemented the four day week in Goway. Very interesting what they were talking about. We exchanged card. We talked about possible connections, again, are talking at some stage again, and then covid hit and everything just sort of changed.

[00:02:11] But in the two and a half years that we've done this, not only have you know lots of things changed, but your life has changed quite rapidly. Where are you coming in from now?

[00:02:19] Joe: So I'm actually in Toronto at the minute, Stephen. Uh, we had been, we moved to New York last September. Um, so we had been there for, 13, 14 months. And, uh, yeah, we moved to Toronto about six weeks ago, uh, where we're setting up, uh, a new venture in this space. The first ever center of excellence in work time reduction.

[00:02:38] Stephen: Fantastic Bridge. We're gonna get you onto that in a second too. But before that, you were working bef uh, with, is it Four Day Global? Is it. 

[00:02:46] Joe: That's right. So, 

[00:02:47] Stephen: That was a great conversation with Joe about the four day working week. Uh, Joe's only been in this field since about 2017, has made great progress, not just being a part of Four Day Global, but bringing it, um, to the rest of the world now where we have all these trials around, uh, the four day week where it's in the uk, us, Canada, and in Ireland here too as well.

[00:03:07] And that was brilliant, really great insights on how the four day week. Benefits you as an organization and how the four day week is gonna be a part of our working life, whether we like it or not, in the next 10 years. And that's where the talent are gonna go. And we can make choices about that ourselves as organizations, or we can put our head in the sands, but it's gonna be a part of our working experience as much as people probably would've rallied against the, uh, 40 hour, uh, work week or the eight hour day back in the early part of the 20th.

[00:03:34] century Um, things are changing for the better and uh, it's great to see someone like Joe champion this. That was a great conversation, so brilliant. Thank you very much, Joe.

[00:03:44] Joe: I had been working so since that four day Week Ireland initiative, that that was the connection that both of us made in, in Limerick. Um, back a number of years ago, pre Covid, um, I had been collaborating with Four Day Week Global, which is a not-for-profit organization founded by Andrew Barnes and Charlotte Lockers, two entrepreneurs who are based in New Zealand. Who had introduced this in their own company, perpetual Garden, back in 2018, in one of the most high profile, uh, pioneering case studies in this space.

[00:04:14] So the stars kind of aligned. I was going to, to New York to do a, a research scholarship in work time reduction with Cornell. We had designed this pilot program and research project, um, around the four day week in Ireland in 2021, so early last year. And four day week, global, we're kind of keen to bring a similar initiative to the US and, and, and to bring it to a, to a global audience. So, uh, came on board with them as CEO and have been coordinating the global trials of the four day work week, um, that you, you, you and your listeners may have seen over the last year that are taking place in the UK, in Ireland, in the US and Canada, and also in Australia and New Zealand.

[00:04:54] Stephen: So how are they going at the moment, those trials?

[00:04:57] Joe: Well, interestingly, uh, I'm not sure when this is going out. We're having this conversation here on the 22nd of November, but on the 30th of November, um, the, the first round of research results and findings from the initial trials, which took place in Ireland and also in in North America, are gonna be released.

[00:05:15] So it's the first time we'll have, you know, very clear initial data, um, from those trials. Certainly the indications that we've been getting at the midpoint. So we've done some midpoint check-in surveys with leaders to kind of get a sense of how are these trials impacting company productivity. You know, we've also, uh, had some midpoint results in terms of employee wellbeing and burnout, and all of the indications are that the, the results will be overwhelmingly positive, that the vast majority of organizations that have done this have had a positive experience and are likely to continue with the policy beyond the trial.

[00:05:49] Um, but we're gonna have a whole lot of, of interesting, uh, additional data coming out in, uh, in just a few days from now. And then also the largest trial in the world, which is taking place in the UK. We expect those results to be out in February of next year.

[00:06:03] Stephen: This is fantastic. So before we get into the depth and the meat of this as well, I, I just wanna find out what, what was your journey to get you to where you are now, and even just previously to what you were beforehand with, uh, four Day Global?

[00:06:14] Joe: So I suppose I, I, I probably started to, to, to become interested in this subject all the way back in 2018. So I was working as the, as the head of campaigns for, for Fora, uh, which our listeners might know as Arlen's largest public service union. Um, and at the time we were still dealing with the kind of the fallout from the financial crisis.

[00:06:34] Um, there was additional working time imposed on public servants as a result of some of the agreements that were put in place around that time. And I was starting to observe the, while Ireland had moved in that direction, you know, there was a very different. Road that was being taken in other countries.

[00:06:48] So I mentioned that that trial in New Zealand, there was another one in Sweden and the large German Union, IG Metall had just signed a large work time reduction agreement. So we were observing this and, and we organized, um, an international conference at the end of 2018 called The Future of Working Time.

[00:07:04] Um, in Dublin, which brought together a lot of, a lot of key, stakeholders and pot leaders in this space. And one other thing that really, really inspired me and that has stuck with me is a survey that we did of our own members around that time to kind of get a sense of their attitudes to work-life balance.

[00:07:21] The idea of the four day week, uh, and we offered an open common section where, where people could, could, you know, in addition to answering the questions, could give their own thoughts and views. And one of the experiences that, you know, a huge, huge number of people shared was, you know, we were really struck by the amount of working parents, primarily women who said that they were already working shorter work weeks.

[00:07:45] They were working four day weeks, or they were working reduced hour work weeks, but they were obviously doing it for a lower salary. And they had, they had made that decision due to work-life balance reasons, childcare reasons. Often they did it coming back off maternity leave. But what they kept saying was, even though we're earning less money, we are delivering the same output as we did when we're working five days. We have the same responsibilities and the same expectations in our job as our colleagues who are working five days a week.

[00:08:12] And that said a couple of things to me. It said, first of all, we have a significant gender equality problem in the workplace that a four day week being introduced universally could go a long way to addressing. But also that this idea of Parkinson's law holds true and Parkinson's law is this concept that a task will expand to fill the time that's available for its completion. So that really set me on this path of, of looking into this concept more, researching it more, and eventually, you know, advocating and campaigning for, for this change, uh, all over the world.

[00:08:42] Stephen: I love the idea when you spoke about Parkinson's law there about the way that we sort of, um, the, the world of work at the moment and how much time that we sort of spend, I suppose doing tasks that are attending meetings are not getting focused work done. Um, which has probably been true of work for, for a long, long time. And I suppose when we use the word human resources when it comes to work, we have this idea that humans are some sort of a resource when it should be treated quite differently in that case, or, or in that way. 

[00:09:10] And that's a prime example of um, you know, women coming back into the workspace then and finding out they're doing more work, but they're taking an 80% pay cut on that. The concept of the four day week is different though. 

[00:09:19] Joe: Yeah. So four Day Week Global have trademarked this idea of the 100 8100 rule, which is a hundred percent pay, 80% time in exchange for a commitment to delivering a hundred percent of the output. And it's clear, you know, it's important to say that when we talk about that, really what we're saying is, is that this is about delivering the same results, but it's not about doing the same work in the same way. 

[00:09:42] So it's about how can we deliver the same output, but with fewer or more efficient inputs. And what we've seen with a huge amount of the organizations that we've worked with and that we've helped to successfully transition to shorter hours is that often the four day week is actually already here. It's just buried under the rubble of wasteful practices like over long and unnecessary meetings, like distractions and interruptions in the workday, um, maybe poor use of technology or processes that are somewhat outdated and can be improved.

[00:10:12] And that actually at its heart what the four day week really is for a business or for an organization is a focusing function where it, it really, it, it, it enables people in exchange for, you know, what is a, a truly transformative benefit of having that additional time off to spend with family, with community for caring needs, you know, to pursue new hobbies, interests, and endeavors, you know, it's a real game changer for the individual. But at a business level, this is something that actually enables people to think about, you know, what are the tasks that really move the needle? What are the really high priority, high value activities that we should be spending our time doing?

[00:10:51] And that, and I think that's how this counterintuitive phenomenon of organizations doing this and being able to deliver the same or even better results in less time has come about.

[00:11:02] Stephen: I like the idea as well, and I know you've spoken about this. It's one of the things that I champion is the fact that we're really only focused for roughly about three to four hours a day. And after that there's no focus with us at all. We're better off tending to administrative tasks and other tasks that might, um, you know, take up less of our, you know, focus thinking. 

[00:11:20] Joe: Yeah, I, I. One of the things that, that the four day work week process really forces individuals and organizations to consider is how you structure the workday, how you, how you redesign the workday or the workweek in order to make this work. And, and that means thinking much more deliberately about what length of time do we need to allocate to collaboration with other team members on, on meetings and so on? What time do we need to, um, to set aside for administration? So, you know, for Slack, for email, for these kind of constant pings and interruptions in the workday. The idea that actually. It really should be about deciding this is when we're going to catch up on that activity, rather than allowing that to kind of own your, your flow and to disrupt you when you're, when you're focusing on, on, on high value tasks and then setting aside the time to really, you know, Independently work on those kind of key objectives.

[00:12:13] And, and, and that's why we've seen, you know, you mentioned Margaret Cox earlier. One of the things they did, and many other companies where, where they're trying to do this in a physical office environment, they will do things like, if somebody is really honed in and focused on, on, on a, a priority task, they'll put up some kind of a visual cue that kind of says to people, we're busy, we're working on something. Can you come back to us later? 

[00:12:33] Um, so it really is. Rethinking the way that we work, um, in the knowledge that there are efficiencies and there is unlocked potential in most organizations that can be unlocked, and creating the environment that in exchange for doing that people are gifted this, this incredible, um, life changing, uh, benefit of, of having that time back and having a shorter work week.

[00:12:57] Stephen: I'm a big fan of putting the flag or the cuddly toy up to be able to tell people that I'm in the state of focused work and I'm getting good stuff done. There's nothing worse than being interrupted in those situations and then just losing your, your trainer thought completely on that. I'd say coders are, are one of the people that could benefit by that. 

[00:13:14] I like that idea cuz I, I've, I've heard some stats around, isn't it, that we check emails roughly 74 times a day, which is phenomenal cuz that's just reactive. 

[00:13:22] Joe: Sure. And, and, and you know, that that's enabling this idea of task switching where, you know, if you're focused on something and, and a, a disturbance happens, that that interrupts your flow. It takes you a significant period of time to get back to that same state of flow when you're, when you're working on that task. So, you know, all of these psychological components of how we work feed into this. 

[00:13:45] You know, that was one of the things that I know inspired. Andrew Barnes, the four day week, uh, global, uh, co-founder to do this in his own business was he had read some research from the economy, uh, from Henley's that was, was reported in the Economist, that UK office, uh, workers were only truly productive for two hours, 57 minutes, so less than three hours a day. Um, so really kind of looking at, 

[00:14:07] I, I think one of the big things about the four day week is this cultural change from focusing less on the performance of hard work and more on the drivers of real results. And what I mean by that is, and I think. Covid has really done a lot to dislodge these old ways of thinking is it's less about that. Jim was the first person in the office this morning and the last person to leave last night. That, you know, Jim deciding that he's going to work 14 hour days, um, and, and sacrifice his own family life and, and his work life balance isn't something to be worn as a badge of honor. Actually, the thing that we should define high professional standards by is being able to get your work done efficiently and to a high standard within, um, a, a a, a normal work week. 

[00:14:53] Um, and I, I, I think that more and more managers, you know, because they were forced to do this during, you know, covid where remote working happened in a flash measuring people based on presenteeism at the office, at the desk on the clock became much more difficult. I think managers were forced to get much better at measuring what gets done, and I think that that's really opened the door for, you know, when you think of it that way, the move to a four day week becomes much more like a natural progression than a radical departure.

[00:15:23] Stephen: Here's a question for you though. Us in Europe maybe might be more open. I dunno, you can, might tell me difference to the idea of working a four day week. I know the Dutch have worked a shorter working week for years. The Germans too as well. There's been conversations in France about, you know, eliminating the need to reply to emails after work. So it's sort of in our psyche somewhere that's there, there needs to be a finite stop and maybe there needs to be changes. You're now in north. North America may have a very different attitude to the way we work. Have you seen pushback or a differential in the way the Americans and the, the Canadians might think compared to Europeans?

[00:15:57] Joe: So when I moved to New York last September, I, I had a lot of family, friends, work colleagues saying, you know, you're, you're moving to the capital of global overwork to try and persuade people that they need to be, to be working a shorter work week. The very best to look to you. Um, and look, I mean, While there are definitely cultural differences and while that kind of old school, traditional, you know, they call it over here, hustle culture, you know, that, that that traditional mindset of working long hours being a badge of honor, it probably is more deeply embedded and prevalence, certainly in the United States, but there's a degree of self-selecting bias, I guess, to the kinds of conversations I have because, The leaders and the, the organizations that come to us and say, look, we're interested in doing this.

[00:16:43] Um, how can you help us? They tend to be organizations that are already thinking about, um, flexibility in quite a progressive way. We've seen a lot of organizations, particularly in those sectors and industries where, they previously. Attracted talent. Um, you know, they previously competed from a recruitment and retention perspective by offering, let's say access to hybrid working, remote, working, different versions of flexible working. And now they've found that's not a competitive advantage anymore. In a lot of sectors. That's now the industry standard post covid. It's a standard expectation. So they're looking for what is the new thing that can give us an edge over the competition. And increasingly they're, they're turning to the four day week as that, as that new thing that that can give them an edge.

[00:17:27] So, you know, while there are, are cultural, cultural differences in some countries and some industries, I think it might take longer, um, for, for this switch to happen. We're certainly seeing lots of interest and appetite in this part of the world.

[00:17:39] A, and the last thing I'd say is in some respects, because the current status quo in Germany and the Netherlands in Scandinavian countries. Because the average work week is much closer to what I'm talking about, this idea of kind of a four day, 32 hour week as standard. Maybe it doesn't feel like such a exciting, huge step for individuals and maybe it doesn't feel as much like a, a massive competitive advantage for businesses. Whereas if you're talking about the UK, if you're talking about the US, this is something that really is a pretty significant leap and as a result, I think people are very excited about it and businesses probably see this as, as something that can really give them an edge.

[00:18:17] Stephen: bring. Cause I like the idea of like countries that you don't think, when you think about it, Japan would've had a word for overwork. Karoshi, I think was the word for. Lots of people, you know, passed away from overworking. And it was, I think, wasn't it, China had the same, China had something. I'd read a stat, uh, something like in China in 2010, lost 600,000 workers to overwork. And South Korea would've had a similar experience. 

[00:18:39] But now we're beginning to see small little changes. I noticed that in Japan, Microsoft have a sort of, they've toyed around with the idea of the four day work working week. Uh, they've done that. I know Toyota are very progressive too, as well?

[00:18:50] Joe: Yeah, I mean, this is something that while you know, both from an industry perspective and from a country perspective, the momentum here, you know, is like, where is the critical mass on the volume? Where is this the, the where, where is the demand for this? Making it a trend? Well, it probably is in the Anglo-Saxon world, and it probably is in kind of knowledge type, um, roles that used to be primarily office based and now might be primarily hybrid.

[00:19:15] But there are exciting examples and case studies happening in places that you would never, uh, you, you would never have guessed. You know, in Asia, we've seen, as you've said, Microsoft, we've seen Panasonic, we've seen WWA Brothers, we've seen, you know, a. Large global companies experimenting with shorter work weeks and reduced hours.

[00:19:33] Um, we've seen in the United Arab Emirates, um, the, the government there effectively moving the entire public sector to a four and a half day work week. And also aligning their weekend, uh, with the western world. Uh, and now we're seeing actually the private sector, um, following that, that trend. Um, and we've seen, you know, uh, in South Africa now, uh, a major trial has just been launched, um, in South Africa.

[00:19:56] So, so I do think that, that the. Slowly is extending. Um, and, uh, and similarly while, you know, while the, the, the volume effect is happening in places like tech, software, finance, ICT, professional services, we also have, you know, if you take the UK trial that four day week global, uh, are currently running, you have a brewery, you've a fish and chip shop, you have, you know, you have a, a real diversity and variety of organizations that are, are looking at this often in very innovative ways.

[00:20:25] Stephen: Yeah, I think it's brilliant. I, it it, it's gonna be hard to stop that tidal wave of the four day week becoming a part of our experience even. Some people, when you have the conversation with them, say it's, they'll use the old school sort of way that if you're not working hard, you're not working at all and this will never work. And all these sort of reasons why I think Marks and Spencers have now done this in the UK too as well. They proved that cuz the argument would always be, how could you work retail? How could retail ever work at a four day week? And Marks and Spencers have been doing that, uh, for a number of months now, and it's worked really, really well for them. So they're a prime example,

[00:20:57] Joe: of course the common refrain is, you know, it won't work in this specific context or this specific example, and therefore, you know, the, the whole concept is flawed. And I think there's a reality here that number one, this is not a one size fits all approach. In a way, it's a little bit mischievous to kind of describe sectors and industries that don't work a standard five day, nine to five. and to suggest that people like me are saying, well, actually they should work a four day, nine to five, because of course that isn't the case. This is is not about a four day week, Monday to Thursday, existing everywhere. This is about how do we reduce work time in very different ways right across the economy. 

[00:21:37] And similarly, if you look at the, the five day work week a century ago, and how we, you know, how the five day week and the eight hour day became the new norm. Well, it wasn't legislated. globally, overnight. You know, this is something that over a 20 to 30 year period, you saw pioneers like Henry Ford in the manufacturing industry. You saw civil society ca, society campaigns, labor unions, bargaining for this in, in, in particular industries. And this is something that was, was popularized over time and eventually was legislated for. And it didn't happen everywhere, all at once.

[00:22:11] Like if you take, for example, retail, I would argue that low salaries and precarious contracts being addressed in that industry is a bigger priority right now than shortening the work week. And actually we need to, to sort that out before we actually get into the, the conversation about how do we make, uh, work time reduction work at scale in that industry.

[00:22:32] So, you know, this is about there being certain areas where this can happen right away. You know, there are businesses, there are industries out there that could, that have the productive capacity and the technological tools to do this right away. There are gonna be examples of companies in, in other areas of the economy that look at this innovatively and make it work and make it happen. And you know what? They will have an even greater edge over their competition for a longer period of time if they're able to pull it off.

[00:22:59] Stephen: Yeah, I see Belgium has done that with the public sector at the moment as well. They've also just introduced, I think it was in the last month or so they have, or in the last couple of weeks, it was that, um, they're inducing the four day week into the public sector there. Which, you know, cause you've worked in the public sector for years is probably a difficult place to be able to, uh, to bring about change. I'm not being, I'm not being critical of that, but it's just historically change has been a difficult place to bring to the public sector.

[00:23:26] Joe: I think it's important if you take the Belgian example to kind of, um, to, to define, you know, the difference between the, the, the compressed hour work week, um, uh, being offered as an option for employees and a reduced work week. So in the Belgian example, effectively it's the same hours. People have the option to work, to work at the same hours over four days rather than five. And, and I think for, for certain, particularly if, if you take manufacturing, where, where, you know, yes, you can ha the, we, we've seen manufacturing companies reduce the work week through process efficiencies on the factory floor. But because a lot of the value that they're creating is reliant on, on presence, on physical presence, it is a little bit more of a challenge.

[00:24:06] So we've seen those kind of compressed. Our, uh, models work well in certain settings. They work well for certain individuals, but I think it's important to, you know, to, to, to be really clear that what we're talking about here is reduced hour working. 

[00:24:19] And actually, you know, when we talk about the future of work, my view is that we've got overly focused on where we work. We've got the conversation has got completely overtaken by location of work. Whereas actually we need to also talk about not just location of work, which is important and is 1, 1, 1 critical feature. We need to talk about how long we work for and the way that we work. I think the four day week is a really, really important entry point into both of those. Both of those convers.

[00:24:49] Stephen: Yeah, I think it kind of worms our, our, uh, the, the genie is outta the bottle since Covid has happened and, uh, it's, it's pretty much changed everything. I've said this before, that you know, when it came to remote working, if you'd have asked your boss about remote working in, take for example, January, 2020, and said, I'm thinking of working from home, they would've looked you with two heads and said, well, how you think you're gonna do that? And then we're in a space of two and a half months. Everybody was forced working from home.

[00:25:12] And, and I think there's some really good rapid changes that are really getting us to rethink the way we work, uh, from now on. And, and I think we're becoming more people-centric now, beginning to think about, uh, I can't constantly have a factory full of, you know, burnt out people, you know, coming through the doors of my, uh, you know, organization and just burning them out and getting rid of them and replacing them with new people anymore, which felt like the way work used to be years ago too, as well. Our burnout, hard work, and all the kind of, uh, ways that we worked seems to be the norm. That's beginning to change now.

[00:25:43] Joe: For sure. I mean, if you look at the, the conversation around back to office policies, I mean, some of the stance and positions that you know, Tesla, Amazon, Facebook. Google have, have taken, you know, most small to medium sized business owners and leaders would know, there's absolutely no way in hell they could take the same stats because it would cripple them from a recruitment and retention standpoint.

[00:26:05] Some of the larger companies that the, the big brands that have a huge amount of demand to go and work for them can be a little bit more um, offbeat with the, with the kind of policies that they're. So, so I think it's the same with the four day week. I think that, that this is something that over time is going to become something that.

[00:26:22] Like if you take for example, the tech sector, is it possible that in 2025 it's a competitive disadvantage if you don't offer a shorter work week? I think that that is imminently possible, and that's the, that that's the game changer that will happen at an industry level. And then even if you take it at a country level, you know. Ireland within the European Union. We know that, you know, some of the advantages we've had from a competitive standpoint around tax differentiation are gonna be gradually eaten up over the, over the, the, the coming years through the, the European Union BEPS process. The new frontier of competition, in my opinion as we come out of the pandemic, is all about quality of life. And those countries that could actually move towards offering a shorter work week as standard will become very, very attractive destinations and I think will really set themselves apart when it comes to the global war for talent. So that's the, that's the kind of macro dynamics that, that, that we certainly see things, uh, see things heading.

[00:27:20] Stephen: I think it's definitely gonna be part of the future, and it's where all the best talent is going to go to. What are your thoughts on. And, and how he's expressed, um, the way the workers need to work for Twitter. Um, saying that it's 40 hours and it's 40 hours within inside of the office. That might have changed ever so slightly. But what are your thoughts?

[00:27:37] Joe: I think it's hard to, to, to judge a lot of what he says and does, because I do think that, you know, for example, there, there, there's a degree of intended attrition there. In other words where, you know, there, there's clearly been an effort to shed a, a, a large proportion of the workforce, um, to kind of, you know, it's almost like it feels at times, like the policy is like a Jenga puzzle where it's kind of pull out the component parts of Twitter, see at what point it's still standing, and then build from there. So, you know, it's not like a normal business scenario where. Bosses are doing their best to retain their people rather than to, to, to kind of, to push them out the door.

[00:28:16] But look, I, I think that a lot of the stuff that he says about hardcore Twitter 2.0 is this old school machismo style of leadership that is rapidly going out of fashion. And I think that, um, that that actually what's going to be hardcore in the next decade is gonna be working smarter, working more efficiently, you know, holding it as a professional badge of honor that we can get the same work done, um, as our competitors. to a better standard in less time. That to me is i, is going to be how we define how we think about and how we look at work. 

[00:28:52] So I think a lot of a, a lot of, uh, Elon's approach I is a little bit outdated and yeah, it's one of these things where, um, I think we're all kind of watching, uh, watching it unfold almost like a, kind of a, an eighties or a nineties disaster movie. Um, but obviously there's a, there, there, there's a lot of, a lot of human casualties involved, um, from, from the company's perspective. And I think potentially, you know, a lot of risk, uh, around the public space, the public square and, and the, the huge impact that social media has on that.

[00:29:23] Stephen: Yeah, I just wonder who wants to come and work for that organization now, you know, um, who wants to be the person to part of that hardcore team that is expected to put in the long airs? Cause I know he's done some of that stuff at Tesla. And I always wonder about the, the, the bandwidth that Elon must have or does he actually do the same things as he expects of other people? And if he does that, it sounds like he must be superhuman to be able to put his mind into our effort and his concentration into SpaceX, to Tesla, into the boring project he has under the, the tunnels of LA that he's doing as well as as Twitter. At the moment are his expectations, like some, some crazy genomic dictator, uh, that just once has one vision of the way he sees the world and everybody should be on his journey. And if they're not in his journey, good luck, but who'd want to be on that journey? 

[00:30:12] Joe: I mean, I, I think that there's lots of. Hungry, ambitious, talented engineers that probably see the opportunity to work for such a polarizing, well known figure in a project that that's got the world talking. I can see how there are certain people that, that would appeal to it. Like it. He is making Twitter a place that, you know, it's pretty clear is not gonna be conducive to retaining, working parents, is not gonna be conducive to retaining, you know, the kinds of, of staff with lots of expertise and experience built up over a long period of time.

[00:30:47] So it, it's, it's a, it's a very deliberate strategy in my opinion. Um, I, I, I, I find it hard to see, like he is definitely pushing against the tide. I mean, even when we talk about the way the world has shifted around remote working, hybrid working, you know, work life balance, smarter working, and then this guy is sleeping in the office. You know, it, it definitely feels like there's a, a real push in the other direction.

[00:31:15] And you know what, maybe he's big enough and they're big enough to be able to, to see it out and make it work. But, um, you know, I, I, I don't think there are too many leaders of companies worldwide who feel that they could pursue the Elon Musk approach or, or feel that they could take the kinds of risks that he's taking in public, and pull it off.

[00:31:35] Stephen: I always think that if Twitter didn't even exist, like how different would the world be next week if there was no Twitter? Uh, for my world it wouldn't change that much cuz, and Twitter and me aren't. Uh, it's, it's not something I use quite a lot and maybe I should use it more than I should do and maybe I would feel different if that was the case, but I just feel that the world would still turn and everything would seem the same within a space of a couple of weeks, once if Twitter didn't exist.

[00:32:00] Joe: I think if Twitter didn't exist and you're already seeing an element of this, I think something else would, would, would, would rise up and, and take its place. I think that I, I had this conversation with, with someone recently about, you know, , the value of social media, uh, is, are we better off as a society without it? And I think in a way it's a completely academic conversation because like with a lot of things, the genie out of the bottle bottle, we've built this capacity to communicate in that way, you know, with the global audience. Um, and, and as long as there's a demand for that, um, then, then that will always be with us now, you know, so, so it really is, the conversation is about how do we regulate that in a way that can almost illuminate the benefits that there clearly are to society, while, while, you know, mitigating against some of the, the, the real rotten core of it that we've seen that has, has, has really, negatively, uh, impacted politics, has impacted, you know, social cohesion. I, I, I think very clearly over, over the last number of years in particular.

[00:33:00] Stephen: Yeah, it's just interesting when you talk about that when we were talking about Twitter. Uh, Bruce Daley, who was the head of the European operations for Twitter, uh, who now writes brilliant books like The Joy of Work, has a great podcast about this too, as well, was talking and a podcast I was listening to yesterday and he was talking about, I think it was Jane Twinge, I think her name is. And she has done lots of g really good research into how our society has changed, um, in the last number of years. And you'll see these correlations between, around about 2009 specifically up to about 2015 and beyond where you see dis correlations, specifically between teenage, uh, depression, uh, teenage suicidal ideation, teenagers spending less time with their parents, uh, more time alone, uh, with, with themselves not eating with their parents. Um, and, you know, feeding in general levels of depression. You see the curve and she shows these great graphs of, it's pretty much when smartphones became omnipresent in our lives and how that affected the way teenagers felt about themselves and the world around them. It's, it's quite stark when you see this.

[00:33:56] It is an argument, you know, on the other side of, of social media that maybe it has made things a little bit worse for a lot of people, or a lot worse for, for, for a lot of people.

[00:34:05] Joe: Yeah, I mean, you know, if, if you're, if you're feeling emotionally vulnerable or a little bit down, does an hour of Instagram where you observe everyone else in your broader community showing themselves in their most positive light, does that have a positive or a negative emotional impact? I'm almost certain we could agree that, that it's negative.

[00:34:27] You know, if you take Twitter, is it good for my intelligence or your intelligence that, you know, my views are consistently and constantly magnified by the fact that, you know, my newsfeed is lots of people who support the four day week, and lots of people who, who take a similar political view to me. And, you know, there, there are, there are deliberate ways that things that I can do to kind of, you know, cushion against that a little bit.

[00:34:49] But the, the reality is I'm going to click into content that interests me. That's gonna be based on my prejudices that I already have and the algorithm is gonna send me down a particular route. And you know, that's probably, you know, my views are probably mainstream enough that that's not, um, gonna be very damaging. But when you amplify and, you know, build a community around views that are very much at the fringes, I think we've all seen, you know, that the harmful impact impacts that that can have.

[00:35:17] Stephen: Like that brings us back to like getting focus done in the works. Are we getting good work done in the workspace? It's very difficult now because the amount of distractions are just, you know, far larger than they. Have been years ago. when there was, you know, just email maybe was the only thing, and maybe there was five or six emails that came in. It's, it's, you know, it's the, the volume has got greater and greater, but it's not just that. Now we've got Slack and now we've got other tools that we might use. We've got WhatsApp messages that might be used by the groups, and there's the own personal social media that's pulling us left, right, and center all day long. That's probably lengthening our working day and shortening our focus. That's one of the things that I suppose that if we can get a handle on that, then our working day becomes more efficient.

[00:35:57] Joe: For sure. And, you know, a a a lot of the organizations that we've worked with have used the shorter work week transition almost as a reset, almost as an opportunity to take a step back, um, you know, and to kind of say What are we really trying to achieve here? You know, and, and, and almost recognizing and acknowledging that not every priority is Krenn created equal. Not every task is created equal. Not everything has to be perfect. Not everything has to be done today, uh, or immediately or responded to immediately. 

[00:36:26] So I think that, that it, it, it really is about creating a culture where people are constantly questioning their own day to day and questioning that the way that their, their team is, is, is doing business. So it, it's very much. Pushing in the other direction from the way we've always done things and, um, and, and really resetting. So we've, we've seen, for example, lots of organizations will introduce new policies around how they use Slack, um, and, and, uh, and, and, and things like that. How they use communications technologies so that, you know, they are, um, they're controlling them rather than the other way around. Um, when, when they, when they make this, this change.

[00:37:05] Stephen: Yeah, I was only talking to a HR manager there a couple of days ago about this, and when I delved a little bit deeper, um, uh, she told me that like emails would regularly go out at 10 o'clock at night or on a Saturday afternoon. And I said, you're sending a message out to the rest of the organization that this is normative and it's, it's not. And when everybody is suddenly, I always talk, think about the idea of that you're just about to go to the theater and you're in theater mode and you're out with your wife, your partner, whatever, and then you're, uh, just about to go in and suddenly see this email ping on your phone and you suddenly turn into work Steve again, uh, rather than, you know, measure Steve. And I think there's a lot of that that's going on in our world that's preventing us from really being able to reset and rest.

[00:37:42] Joe: I think that's why this conversation that we're having is, is so important because there are people that that hold a view or articulate a view that because we have a much more flexible open working world than we did 10 years ago, that it almost renders the four day week conversation redundant. That it's all about where we work and it's all about, you know, flexibility of work. But actually when you think about it, there's lots of benefits to remote working for the individual, for the family, for society, and there's lots of evidence to suggest that businesses, you know, there are businesses who are as productive today, if not more so than they were, um, several years ago when the business is being run from the global CEO's kitchen table.

[00:38:27] So, you know, all of these norms have been shifted, but in reality there are lots of people that would say actually, my working hours are longer. I find it more difficult to switch off when my workplace is my home. Um, you know, the lines are, are more and more blurred. So I don't believe that it addresses problems around overwork and burnout and work related stress.

[00:38:47] And equally, I'd say if you asked many of us, do we have more digital distractions now than we did three years ago? Do we have more unnecessary meetings now than we did three years ago? I would say the answer is yes. So creating greater wellbeing for employee. And more efficient companies. I, I don't think location of work is the be all and end all of that, and that's why it's really important that we, we, we look at the length of time we're working for and the way that we're doing our work.

[00:39:14] Stephen: For a company who was going to, if, if this is the first conversation that, uh, anybody had heard about the four day week, they sort of heard about the four day week, but had no idea about it, what way do you think companies who want to venture down this road, what should they do? If they want to enter the four day week, what, how would they go about it

[00:39:30] Joe: so next week, and I assume by the time this goes live, um, this would already be out there, but we're, we're launching the website for our new Center of Excellence and Work Time reduction, which is going to be a, an umbrella organization, which will have, um, a. A transformation wing, which will be really about supporting companies to make this shift to shorter hours. Um, and we'll also have some, uh, technology solutions that, that will support individuals, leaders, companies who want to shorten their work week and also track the impact of that. Um, and finally will be, will be, uh, investing in research on the feasibility and impact of worktime reduction, uh, in different industries, different countries and and so on.

[00:40:09] So our website's gonna be www.worktimereduction.com. Um, you can contact me if you wanna have a conversation on joe@worktimereduction.com. Uh, and on that site we're gonna have, uh, assessment survey, which is basically a set of questions that any leader or manager can. About their current organization. And what that will do is will give us some insights based on, uh, code methodology that we've developed, which is about the balance between, uh, your organization's connection organization, its drive, and its, its, uh, its exploration dimension. So you know, how innovative is the company. Um, so basically that, that survey will give us a sense of. How ready is your organization for a shorter work week? So, are you ready to move straight to a four day week? Do you need to maybe look at this in a more incremental way? Maybe it's about going to a nine day fortnight or going to a half day Friday, or, or maybe it's just about trying to actually work your contracted hours, because right now people are working, um, way beyond that. Um, maybe you're not ready to make that switch yet, and maybe you need to look at your processes and, and, uh, and see how you can make them more efficient.

[00:41:13] So that is something that we've designed really as a conversation starter to give both the company and also ourselves a sense of, um, what the baseline is and, and how we might be able to help and support you to, uh, to, to make that happen.

[00:41:25] Stephen: I like that in conversation with Andrew Barnes and Andrew Barnes from Perpetual Guardian who brought that in in 2017. I think one of the things that he spoke about, uh, very candidly, was the fact that he, um, he spoke with all the team members about what was going on. So there was consultation all the way through the whole process, which is really important. So they felt they were included in it. And what Andrew actually does in his organization, it's not a, it's not a four day week as we think. It's not a Friday or a Monday off. Sometimes it's a Tuesday, Wednesday or a Thursday, um, and that works perfect for him. But the one thing he did involve is he involved everybody in the process. And I think that's key to, uh, implementing the four day week or even having that conversation with your organization.

[00:42:05] Joe: For sure. Certainly we would encourage organizations, this needs to be a bottom up rather than a top-down process If you want this to be sustainable. The most detail detail-oriented CEO in the world doesn't know the day-to-day intricacies of each of their employees' jobs well enough to, to set a policy for how they need to redesign it. This needs to be, you know, very much empowering people at a, at a team and at a department level to figure out how they can change their work practices in order to deliver the same output in, in four days rather than five.

[00:42:36] And you're right. You know, the, the, the, the structure of this will be different from organization to organization. Some organizations it might make sense to have a universal day off. , which means that, you know, there's more time for people to collaborate with each other over the other four days. For other organizations, if you've got a customer facing, uh, side of the business sales retail, that's not gonna work. You're not gonna be able to shut the office on a Friday. So it's gonna be about devising rosters and schedules to make sure that you can maintain that coverage and maintain those service standards across the five day work week, and in some cases even a six or a seven day work week.

[00:43:10] Stephen: The, the one thing that I'm, I'm constantly getting feedback from, and I, and as I must disclose as well, I am an associate, uh, with, uh, uh, happy and Happy are based in the uk and they're one of those companies on the UK four day week trial at the moment, and the reports back from Henry and the rest of the team there are really, really phenomenal when it comes to this. Everybody is 100% happy with it. Um, it does take a little bit of betting in, but there's no organization that I've heard of to date that I've said, this is the worst experience or this is the worst decision that we've made. We need to go back. There might be some of them out there, but overall what I'm seeing is great positives on this.

[00:43:44] So, Joe, what you're doing is, is is great in, uh, changing the world of work, uh, for the. I think this is the future of, of where we are gonna be work, work. When we talk about this in 10 years time, it'll be like we were at the start of the conversations about it. You were certainly at the very start of the conversations about it, and it's gonna be, uh, a normal experience for most of us in the world of work.

[00:44:05] Joe, thank you so much for taking part in the Wild Work podcast today. I really, really appreciate your time. How can people get in contact with you? I know you gave some details there. Again, you're based in Canada and Toronto now at the moment, and you're working with a new organization, um, which you just explained, are going to bring out this, uh, website, I think it's in the next week or so. We've put those details into the, uh, into the show notes.

[00:44:26] Joe: Yeah, that's right. So worktimereduction.com, joe@worktimereduction.com. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn and reach out if you wanna start the conversation.

[00:44:35] Stephen: Fantastic, Joe, keep flying the flag. Thank you so much for being a part of today. Thank you.

[00:44:39] Joe: Will do. Cheers, Stephen. 

[00:44:41] Stephen: Love that. That was a great conversation with Joe about the four day working week. Uh, Joe's only been in this field since about 2017, has made great progress, not just being a part of Four Day Global, but bringing it to the rest of the world. Now where we have all these trials around, uh, the four day week where it's in the UK, US, Canada, and in Ireland here too as well.

[00:45:00] And that was brilliant, really great insights on how the four day week benefits you as an organization and how the four day week is gonna be a part of our working life, whether we like it or not, in the next 10 years. And that's where the talent are gonna go. And we can make choices about that ourselves as organizations, or we can put our head in the sands, but it's gonna be a part of our working experience. 

[00:45:20] As much as people probably would've rallied against the, uh, 40 hour, uh, work week or the eight hour day back in the early part of the 20th century, things are changing for the better and uh, it's great to see someone like Joe champion this. That was a great conversation, so brilliant. Thank you very much, Joe.