[00:00:00] Stephen: So welcome to our Wow @ Work podcast, I'm delighted to introduce today's guest Henry Stewart, who is the CHO, which is the chief happiness officer of Happy Ltd is a training company based in London. And he's also the author of the happy manifesto, a fantastic books that can help your organization become a great place to be able to work. Henry is also a keynote speaker internationally around the world and advisor to many other people like myself and other companies about how they could actually transform the world of work for the better. So you're very welcome today, Henry of to have you here.

[00:00:32] Harry: Thank you. Delighted to be here. 

[00:00:34] Stephen: Fantastic. Before we start that we're going to go into it. And I think this time now, more than ever talking about happiness at work, everybody's becoming aware of this. This was something that you had clicked into well, before it became fashionable to talk. about this. So you. had done this a long time ago. 

[00:00:52] Harry: Thank you. 

[00:00:52] Stephen: What was the trigger What was the catalyst to make you think that being happy at work? Wasn't.

[00:00:57] Harry: The trigger was working for a really unhappy workplace. This was, oh, this was way back in 1987. When me, when some colleagues and myself set up a national newspaper and national Sunday newspaper, we raised six and a half million pounds and we lost it all within six weeks. It was a decent, I had the book about it was called disaster. 

[00:01:22] Stephen: So there's an actual book that we can read on this 

[00:01:24] Harry: book that, you can read. Yes. Yes. 

[00:01:28] Stephen: Fantastic. Can you just, could you just tell me a little bit about that, how that experience formed the way you think and what actually happens to get you 6.5 to the six weeks after using up the 6.5 million on how that felt. 

[00:01:40] Harry: It brought me to the verge of a nervous breakdown, to be honest with you. And we'd got it all along. We were actually quite good. But we decided to take over the management of the company and hire a bunch of journalists. What we should have done was hire a bunch of managers and done the journalists because the, I think the most we knew about management was what we watched on dentistry, which many readers won't remember, but it was that. Oh oil company. And in the states that was on TV and it was certainly not a great style of management went on there or what we'd learnt from other people. And it wasn't good. 

[00:02:15] Stephen: So, what was your next step after that? 

[00:02:17] Harry: Haha. The next step after that was, I went to work for a pensions investment company perk and in, in London. And they they sacked me after 12 days cause they said they didn't like my attitude. 

[00:02:30] Stephen: This is really interesting. 

[00:02:31] Harry: So I decided I did like my attitude and I decided that I wouldn't, I would not work for anyone else again. And I would work for people who did like 

[00:02:40] Stephen: So what's the next step then to set up. 

[00:02:44] Harry: Yeah. So then I, it was really good cause. Lunchtime. I had lunch with my dad and he's from Birmingham. So it was quite bad to have him to be in London. And he said to me, don't get jumped into another job. Think about it, think about what you need. And that really sent me on the boat to thinking about What I wanted to do next. And I wrote, a list of all the things I might do and what, which I enjoyed and which I was good at. And and which how much they paid. And I rejected computer consultancy, which was the highest paid of it because, it was it's only very dope. And I went in the end for training and for it training and set up Happy Computers, which the aim of which was to help people enjoy using their software. 

[00:03:26] Stephen: Oh, fantastic. I'm just developed into a much larger company today. 

[00:03:29] Harry: It has. Indeed. I set up on my own. And it's now a couple of million turnover and we've developed from it into creating great workplaces because we started winning awards for being, we won one award for being the best customer service in the entire UK. And we won, we were five years in a row. We were in the best 20 workplaces. So our customers started asking us, what is it you're doing? And so we started uh, we moved into the areas of workplace, culture and leadership. 

[00:03:59] Stephen: I find that really interesting because you've just talked about the roles that you have in in the newspaper and, And how difficult that process, that was And then the pensions company, didn't like the attitude that you had at the time. So you set up your own company and it's not as if you go from a customer service background, but you did something, right. what was it that, caught people onto seeing that you guys had great customer service?

[00:04:21] Harry: So, um, I went, I left those two that not yet set with not a good year for me, I'd left those two businesses and decided that I would not, you set up a company to be, an AKI training company, but I would set up a company that would be a great workplace that would the great customer service that I wanted to see how you uh avoided all the things that went wrong at the other places and how you create a real exemplar. So that was my. My whole intention. 

[00:04:49] And I read a lot of books. I read a lot of business books. So I've read a lot about how you created great businesses. I read the customer comes second by how those employees which is a classic of its time. It was written by the guy who won the bowl. Boltok bowl drink something like that award for the best customer service in the UK, in the no. So in the USA, and. As the mess as the title says, it's about the employees coming first. But the key book I read was Madeline. Bye Ricardo Semler, which I read in 1992. And before that Happy was a small business with me, basically. Micro-managing when I went on holiday, I would ring back each day to check what people were up to. There were only three of us at the time, three people at the time, but and then I read Maverick, which was, tells the story of Ricardo Semler and how he took over his business.

[00:05:45] From his dad, a fridge manufacturing 

[00:05:47] plant and how it went from workers been searched on the gate every day to 

[00:05:52] workers have been fully trusted to the side. They have own targets 

[00:05:57] set up their own machinery. 

[00:05:59] He decided to manage, and even in many ways, decide that their salary and that transformed the culture of happy that was given.

[00:06:10] That's been given to every member. That we've employed since then. And that was the start of our journey towards trust and freedom. 

[00:06:17] Stephen: Wow. I do remember reading that book for the very first time as well. I was studying management and I worked for an organization, which was similar to Ricardo's it was a manufacturing organization and I'd when I read that book and I was studying at the time because everyone else had gone and picked another book to be able to choose to for their for their project at the time. And I saw this completely by chance on some library it was just sit there and I went that just looks different. That's not the normal management book, So I pulled it out and I read it. My eyes opened. And like the things that as you recognize from the book, how he empowered his teams to make decisions on what way they wanted to work, rather than be told what way to work. I'm like, that's fascinating. And I got so enlightened and excited about that when I went back into it to my team on the factory floor and tried to install. some of this within A very old organization. So this organization had a really old culture that that wasn't met well, and not just. but the possibilities that something like what Ricardo is teaching us is possible, obviously from what he's done, it's only got more successful in other companies now that have sample Semco style and leadership training too, as well, which I find really interesting. So yeah. So Ricardo and anybody else that's that really you saw as role model stuff began to transform the way you thought about.

[00:07:27] Harry: There's a few people. There is a, there's a, there was a woman called Sherry brown, who I used to attend workshops with who a key direction to me was go make mistakes. And I have, and I did that took me in good stead. And as you'll know, Stephen, their philosophy now is celebrate mistakes. 'cause cause yeah, it, cause I know a blame culture where people get, get, where people get blamed for mistakes is the worst thing you can have, what you need. And what I know people like about Happy is the idea that you can, that if they take a risk, if they do something and it all goes wrong, that we're, that we'll celebrate it 

[00:08:07] Stephen: I love that. and I know that idea And I know is I spoken before, but the fact that it, that Ben and Jerry's have their, flavor graveyard over in Vermont as well. And they got lots of flavors that just didn't work out, but they took the risk and they made it in some of, transforms the company, and some just um just haven't made it. I think Hazel not is the one that Ben and Jerry's have tried three times to put into their ice cream and it has failed every time. 

[00:08:28] So, do I so I don't know why it hasn't worked with that yet with Ben and Jerry's, but you find hazelnuts three times, but it is, it has gone into the griever and every single time.

[00:08:37] So I love that different approach that you guys have when it comes to the whole concept of the way we work. And I liked the way that you talked about attitude at the start, because the organization, the pensions organization that you went to work for, it didn't like your. But one of the things that shines true in the happy manifesto is high for attitude And train for skill and happy to do class. 

[00:08:56] Harry: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that is core. That is absolutely core to our philosophy. So when we hire people we try and we try not to ask questions of them. Right. I mean, The interviews. So instead what we generally do is we hire groups. We bring them in groups of six. Any thoughts why we bring them into groups of six 

[00:09:17] Stephen: Six is just a good number. That's how they compare it off it's twos or threes.

[00:09:21] Harry: Well, that's good as well, but most people hire and just bring people in one at a time. The key about sex is one of our key requirements is that people are positive and supportive of each other.

[00:09:31] That's a key part, the culture happy. I'm not interested in asking people, when were you positive and supportive of somebody then, you get a nonsense answer. Um, what I'm interested in seeing is how they are positive and support with people.

[00:09:43] Um, so we bring them into groups of six, say for trainers, and then w then we train them. We expert, we show them what we're expecting, because again, if you don't know what the employer is expecting of you, how can you get it right It doesn't matter whether they've trained, not in the past. We had one trainer in our Liverpool branch who came to the second interview and found that all the other five people trainers and she wasn't right. And she almost left. But she stayed and she got the job. And one of the reasons she got the job is actually cause most of the trainers out there have been trained in bad habits. And actually we often prefer people who haven't trained in the past.

[00:10:21] And then what we do is we get them to train. Obviously we get them to actually deliver a training session because we, for years, we would ask people what makes a good trainer and they would explain it great links, a perfect characteristic of what makes a good trainer, let me put them in front of a group and they do something completely new. So I realized there's no point in asking questions. There's no point in people talking about about what may or may not be how they are. So instead get people to do stuff, whether it's training, whether it's customer service, whether it's techies, fixing stuff, whether it's managers, managing people get people, whether it, I always say if I wasn't going to employ a brain surgeon, I'd get them to cut someone up in the interview.

[00:11:08] Stephen: I looked up because I think we are beginning to, to change our ideas about what the whole idea of recruitment has been for years. Like the normal recruitment sit across from the table and tell everybody what your hobbies are and tell them, do your people player and your team player and all these different types of things. It's beginning to change. And have you had any other good examples of what other organizations are doing that sound quite radical when it comes to recruitment? 

[00:11:31] Harry: What am I? I've got some favorites. One of my favorites is worth. They called again Menlo men, my, where I went, which is the coating company which Sherry Dunn is the boss and they work in pairs. So literally the coding pair works with. And in the interview, they get people to work in pairs and you succeed. If you've made your pair look good. I think that's a great flow. A great idea. There's another one. I like you sit at the south bank show. Listen, not the south bank here, the south bank in the, in London where they used to get people to fill out lots of forms on, on, if this was for, this is for options for people actually lead you to your seat. So instead they got, they recruited people in groups of 200. And goat them to actually do the kind of stuff that you do when you're in Russia. And they let go a completely different set of people. They actually got quite an older set of people because they, instead, the people who were great at filling out forms, they got the people who were great at doing the job, which is what you want. 

[00:12:34] Stephen: Absolutely.

[00:12:35] Harry: I quite like Pretz approach, which is that they, in the last interview, get people to work in the branch. And so your work a day in the branch, and then the team decides whether to keep you yeah. Because they'll know how great you've been doing what you've been doing, all that kind of thing. And that's another key thing about recruitment use collaborative. Get the people you're going to work with to help you recruit. 

[00:13:00] Stephen: I love that at anytime I do. It just feels like a very genuine customer experience without forced. And if it is forced, I'm not seeing it. So there, seems to be teams of people are generally wants to give you a great service and get you that coffee and get you whatever it is you need and greet you in the morning. I what they've done as well. So it seems 

[00:13:16] Harry: it seems exactly I'm sadly, I don't use print anymore because that, because although their service is fine.

[00:13:28] Stephen: When you got to have standards yeah. And if that's not working. Yeah. But I, yeah, I've always thought of with them as well. And it's the same though, as nets, Which, when it came to recruitment for and the likes of even orchestras for years, the way officers have been wasn't there. And it was back in the 1970s and it was 5% of orchestras have female 

[00:13:46] Harry: participants 

[00:13:47] Stephen: our. 

[00:13:48] Harry: And then they said, then they made you put down a curtain or something So that you couldn't see who they were. 

[00:13:54] Stephen: So it's completely silent or dish as it is now. Now orchestras are taking you on the capabilities of your musicianship rather than who you are, because we have all these unconditional biases that feed into all this. kind of stuff. 

[00:14:04] Harry: And of course, if you own the asking questions, that means that you'll get the most I'm not saying you get. You hit a particular type of person and responding. And actually I genuinely believed if you get beep to do the job, you get more diversity, 

[00:14:19] Stephen: more diverse teams are better. teams are more creative. There's lots of, yeah. There's lots of positives for creating. in this world that we live in the moment that our leadership just feels devoid in money places. I think leadership is needed more than ever.

[00:14:32] Harry: Absolutely. 

[00:14:34] Stephen: what are the key. attributes that you think a leadership, however 

[00:14:38] Harry: that's interesting point, first of all, the key thing for me is listening. The key for lead is to listen, go out on the shop floor and listen, attend meetings and listen. There's a point that Liz Wiseman, who wrote multipliers makes is that if you're leading a meeting, If you're a multiplier, you'll talk for less than 10% of the time. If you're a diminisher, you'll probably talk for 30% or so at the time. So it's about stepping back and setting the right framework.

[00:15:11] So for me, as I try to make no decisions, so I try to make the decisions I have decisions made at. Place that makes sense. The place, the people who are closest to the customer. And this is based on David Marquette's, story of the Santa Fe submarine, where he was commander. And he in contrast to any other commander who tells people what to do, decided to make no decisions. And because it was then based on 135, Brains rather than one person's brain, that submarine went from being underperforming to being the best performing submarine in us, Navy history. And the same similar thing happened when I decided to make no decisions. We were flat lining at the time at Happy. And we went we had we had three years of 25% growth afterwards. 

[00:16:02] Stephen: How difficult was that though? Because to say, to make no decisions. And if I've ever said it to leaders before as well, there's almost like this sort of bulk that goes up or whatever we go wash. Do you want me to not make decisions, Not to hold control of things? 

[00:16:14] Harry: Yeah, absolutely. We're coming here. I'm not natural at this, to be honest I quite liked telling people what to do, so actually it's been a long journey for me to get to this point, but you just have to realize, yeah, it can be. What would you say? Well, They make, you know, at happy, one of the decisions they made was to change the prices, right? So Ben and Jay and John decided, this is like the advice process, which you've seen self managing organizations. They decided that they wanted to change the prices. And so they took lots of advice and I gave them advice and other people gave them advice and then they didn't reach for consensus or even consent because that isn't the way the advice process works. They either. Took all the advice and decided what they would make the prices. I didn't agree with it. I thought it was, crazy, that was I, I decided to step back. And so they put those prices in place and lo and behold, not many of our customers left and actually that's been the source of our profitability to date.

[00:17:16] Stephen: And I know from reading the happy manifesto and what you do at Happy. There's one thing that may a lot of leaders in other organizations, my book, is the idea of pre-approval, which you do. So what you do is you're empowering your teams to set their own targets, but you're also empowering your teams to have preapproval when it comes to certain projects 

[00:17:35] Harry: Absolutely. And my favorite there's some, you may have heard, this is the woman in the cafe at happy here. This is a while back, but a 19 year old in the cafe wanted to make the cafe a better place. And uh, came to us. And what we didn't do is we didn't say show us a plan and we'll think about it. We didn't form a committee to look at it. What we did do was agreed to budget and agreed. She on the check, she understood the look and feel of happy. And I saw that for the first time when she'd done it. So she decided everything that happened in that cafe and just think how she felt walking into that cafe three months into a first job, 19 years old actually felt walking into that cafe.

[00:18:17] Absolutely. Now I've seen it. I seen uh, uh, a larger example of this in the book about Netflix, no rules, where a woman called Jennifer Nervar had been at HP and at HP, she'd had to get a, she got a contract for $200,000 that she was handing out and she needed 20 levels of approval to get that contract.

[00:18:40] It took us six weeks of ringing and ringing and ringing people to get that contract. She came to Netflix and and she had a million dollar contract and she went to her boss and said, oh God, who do I need to approve for this? And he said, nobody, if you think it's the right thing to do, sign it off. And it's done. And, as Reed Hastings, the guy who founded netflix says, it's about getting managers out there. It's about enabling people to use their creativity and decide for themselves. And that's what pre-approved is about. 

[00:19:12] Now, it's not about, it's not, let me be clear. We're not saying give people complete freedom, right? For me, you can tell people what to do. You can have complete freedom where you can have freedom within guidelines and actually very few people want complete. A few entrepreneurs do obviously, but most of us aren't anarchists. Most of us want to know the framework we're working within and then be able to have that trust and freedom within that.

[00:19:41] So, you know, You set clear guidelines and the point is if you, in the normal way where you seek approval at the end, and somebody says, no that's cause they haven't set the guy. If they had sent the guidelines, you'd know that you, that they were, there was something they didn't want. 

[00:19:56] Stephen: Yeah. I mean, I know you've done that happy as well with the website and put the guidelines you would have had, would you have had company logos, your company colors. They all matter. They would be in the guidelines 

[00:20:06] Harry: Absolutely. So on the website, which, in the early days, the website. I would say, oh good. We need that. Can we have that? Can we have that now that take that away. And the person charged the website never really felt in charge of the website. This time we decided to pre-approve and as I say, this didn't mean complete freedom. What we did was we agreed that the browning. So, you know, So they couldn't change it purple or something at the branding is yellow, and there were pick the style of branding. We agreed the metrics, how many people visited the site? How many, what the income was. Uh, Johnny went on the best search engine optimization training we could find. And we also insisted he be talking to the customer. We didn't need to know what the customer was saying, but we needed to know that dialogue was happening.

[00:20:50] And when I saw that website for the first time, it was the night before. Alright. And it either went up or it didn't, and I didn't dispatch. They like it. I thought what's this and what's this, and what's this wasn't what I do created, but it was completely within the guidelines set up. It went. And when we got the metrics a couple of months later uh, the visitors have trebled and the income had doubled, even without my advice.

[00:21:19] Stephen: That's a real strength to be able to empower because I need leaders here listening today who work for organizations that don't practice what you've just spoken about preapproval empowering teams to come up with their own ideas are their own targets within the workspace, celebrating mistakes, all of the things that we spoken about even the likes of when somebody sees the David Marquette video for the very first time, I bet that. They go into shock to think how in God's name could that be allowed or could that happen? I've never, there's almost like a Pang of anxiety. The thought of actually empowering the teams to be able to make up decisions or make no decisions yourself. And They make all the decisions. You just feel like it couldn't possibly work simple. There's a great amount of strength and you've been able to, do that. 

[00:21:57] Harry: well, I say it's just, I mean, now it seems just obvious. Why would you run a company? Any of. Why would you not want to release the capability of your people? And I can tell you we're not suffering from the great resignation at all because 

[00:22:13] Stephen: because the people that work for happy, want to stay with happy, you don't have. 

[00:22:17] Harry: Yeah. 

[00:22:18] Stephen: That's fantastic. What are organizations you'll see that are also doing something similar?

[00:22:22] Harry: Well, There's some fabulous companies out there. That the favorite is Bert Salk, which is the Dutch healthcare organization which is entirely self managing. So they started in about 2006, with four nurses who wanted to change the way community care happened? Because you get you typically, you get a list of all the people you've got to see. You got to spend 10 minutes with Mr. Blogs and 15 minutes with Mrs. Singh or whatever. And it doesn't work for anybody. So what they decided to do was set a bit different way of doing it, and they got together teams of 10 to 12. No, Who would decide for themselves how patients would be treated. And that organization is now sought with four people is now 15,000 people strong, They give the best health care in the Netherlands. According to all the ratings, they have their been the best employer to work for in, in the Netherlands. And it's an amazing story of people taking real empowerment and delivering truly great patient care 

[00:23:33] Stephen: Who wouldn't want to work for an organization. If you were working in home care, who wouldn't want to work for an organization like Dr. Walter and the, and the way it's at the moment where it feels like quite a stressful environment to walk in with no decisions being made by you, but be made by someone else and told what to do all the time.

[00:23:47] Well that goes back to the Google project oxygen where, you know, and when they look for great leaders and what leaders do is they empower people. and they don't micromanage.

[00:23:58] Harry: Yeah. And you, as you'll know, from production, the lead thing that a great manager does, the first single most important thing that a great manager does is be a great coach. And that's the though we look for and, as we look for managers you're not the expert, you're not the person who will tell people what to do. Your role is to be a coach, to build confidence, to help people find their own solution. 

[00:24:28] Stephen: With that too, as well, Henry is one of the things that happy do very well. And as they look at that, Because there's so many things in society are broken. Like I always think about the whole school system is pretty much broken and where I will be based in Ireland because we would do in our final year exams in school. So you're 17 years old and suddenly you're doing seven subjects to do your final exam and out Those seven subjects you've always enjoyed possibly. Three, maybe at the most, but there's four that you don't And with those four, so of these that you don't particularly like, you're going to have to get tutoring in our grinds to get yourself better at them because you need to get better results in them to get yourself across the. line, to get The university place or college place that you wanted. So to me, it seems like a waste of time trying to focus on what your weekend and the things you don't enjoy, because you don't get to focus on the things you're good at the two subjects that you really enjoyed sitting in because you're focusing on trying to fix the broken ones. And I think at the workspace, we've began to realize that, when we get people to play to strengths, w we're just better teams are better. People feel better about the role that they're in but I know that's one thing that you champion 

[00:25:32] Harry: Absolutely. And, And coming back to the, students there's I often ask people if you're a parent and a little Johnny has got AACF, which one do you focus on? And apparently H 2% focused on the F rather than saying these are all the things you are really great.

[00:25:48] So as you know, we do, we do strength finder and that discovers our five key strengths. And we have that on our organizational chart, whatever it is, five key strengths. And to explain this, one of my strengths is woo. Which means winning others over. So take me to an exhibition or trade show and I'm in my element. I'm loving it. I'm meeting people. There might be a couple of happy people at the back who are a bit shy, but I'm having a great time. I'm chatting to people. Um, I'm filling out the forms. I sat at the end of that. I come back and I put the forms back on, on my desk to ring the next one. Which is quite an important thing to do if you're going to make anything out of that trade show. And you know what, I'm not so good at that bit.

[00:26:31] So you probably guessed what we do now instead of me. Bringing up those people. I get somebody else to bring up those people. And now that's easy. Cause I'm the boss, but let's say I wasn't the boss, let's say my job was to organize the exhibition staff, the exhibition, follow up the exhibition. And I might say to my boss oh, I'm not so good at that last bit. And my boss might say to me, we all have to do things we're not so good at, which is the equivalent of saying we all have to do things which make the company less effective. So, at Happy. We wouldn't do that. Even if I, even if it wasn't the boss we recruit to job description and then we throw it away and we work out what people's actual talents are.

[00:27:11] So one of the things that often happens at happy is a team will put all their jobs up on the wall and then choose which ones they want to do in the next six months. And it doesn't matter what you've been recruited for. If that's not what you're good at, get to do something else instead.

[00:27:25] Stephen: What it's actually doing then is I suppose we're doing that exercise with your staff, you're empowering them in the evolvement of what all the job roles are. And somebody would actually look at a role that was on that board and go, yeah, I don't like doing that. and somebody else is going, you actually doing that. 

[00:27:40] Harry: Yeah exactly. And yeah, so are that exhibition? They are people who hate doing. Hey, chatting to people uh, new people and whatever. And there are other people who you were quite happy to bring up those people afterwards and quite enjoyed doing that. Yeah. So there, yes, exactly. We all liked different things. 

[00:27:58] Stephen: It's very empowering when people find about what their strengths are, cause I've got Wu as well. And I've got a couple of others. and I know that. I like you, Henry. I love coming up with ideas. I love chatting with. people, But I haven't got the bit in the execution. And so it's like you, when I come back with all the forms with where are the forums going to go, we need someone else for the forums, but it's a good realization. Isn't it? And I did that for years, it's like swimming around this. Why is it just not, why is the idea not getting fully formed? Why is the idea not getting fully? And it's simply because that had happened. on the team around me that was going to been able to do that. Then the whole project just went where it needed to go. And I think, yeah, great organizations allow for that. as well.

[00:28:35] Harry: Yeah, I mean, and, and Gallop rec who does the string find a form? Reckons that if people do work to their strengths because very few do, particularly in the UK and in the UK, only one in six, I have to answer yes to every day I get to do what I'm best at, but though where they do that, they're 30 to 40% more productive. 

[00:28:57] Stephen: I don't know if you've read that great book by David Graber, David sadly passed away the last year or so and called bullshit jobs and a theory. And it's just really interesting. And just from the correspondence that he got, the amount of people that actually have roles that made no sense whatsoever. It was almost rules that were made up by leaders in organizations that wants to feel and that sounds fun when somebody says to actually there's very little work to my work. Oh God, you get to sit around? all day. That goes really quickly that excitement suddenly turns into absolute emptiness. and as they go home, like empty shelves, and they're trying to fill a 40 hour week where there's only two and a half hours of real work to do.

[00:29:33] And yeah, it was just so sad to hear that we've created many of these roles that actually fit into this rather than the company saying these are roles that have definitely mental purpose, but purpose is so important when it comes to your experience at work. Purpose and pleasure are the two things that make us happy. And if we can get pleasure on purpose and work at the same time. 

[00:29:50] The last two years have been really difficult for lots of organizations that include in happy on everybody else and what we've come to get to this do you think that people are beginning to re define what they want from the world of work?

[00:30:03] Harry: Yes. I mean that, that's obviously what this great resignation is about people deciding they can leave work and they can live their lives another way. So I think. you know, A lot of people will be wanting to work from home more obviously. It be interesting to see those companies who determined to get people into the office how that works. I'm told by recruitment people that the, you get twice as much response to a job that where you able to work from home, then you do to when we have to be in the office. So these, people will begin to realize that. People want to do that. They want to have a different lifestyle. And obviously the four day week is coming. It looks like it's starting to come in. We're going to be discussing it at our staff meeting next week. Whether we can, I really want to work towards a four day week. The irony is that some of my staff seem less sure. But that's, I think that's on the way. And I think certainly in 10 years time, the four day week will probably be the norm rather than the exception. 

[00:30:57] Stephen: You brought a pilot in. didn't you at one stage of the four-day week during summertime? 

[00:31:01] Harry: Yeah, we did. We did a pilot in August. So a really great time to do a four day week is August, it's, they they I met there's some people on the holiday, but there's a, there's not a lot of COVID dog. And what we found was that a majority, not everybody, but a majority did say they were able to do As much informal. As they're done in five days before. So it seems to me to make, just make common sense. Obviously you end up ditching some of the things like some of the useless meetings, some of the things that you That that didn't make, sense for, but that's a good focus. 

[00:31:31] Stephen: I 

[00:31:31] think It is. Yeah. Andrew Barnes, who we both spoke to as well from the company perpetual guardian who brought this in and around 2017, 2018, and they've done a really good job, but he's consulting with other companies about how they can go about creating the four day week. And one of the things that he said is if it shouldn't be a forced thing, there will be people within the organization that will want to turn up for five days a week and do five days. And because they're getting something different out of work than what everybody else is expecting, and you've got to 100. And you also said what was really interesting because his organization, therefore day, week isn't Fridays off, or isn't Mondays off, it's a mixture between that it could be a Tuesday or it could be a Wednesday. And he said at first the employees that had been given a Wednesday off or a Tuesday off went, what am I supposed to do with it? What would I do? And then when he came back to him only a short while later, I think it was three or four weeks later and asked him the same question. What, how you find this? I don't know how to survive without having this. They off people quickly fill time with. things, Whether it's hobbies, activities or other, you know, choices that they make, whether it's volunteering or being around the kids. And it's almost like the genius out of the bottle. Now, when it comes to the world of work, because now remote working,

[00:32:36] if you would, if three weeks before march, the 20th, was pretty much what, everything, 20th, 20, 20, when everything fell apart, if three or four or five weeks before that you'd gone into your boss. And you said, listen, I'm looking at the whole idea of possibly working remotely. He probably would have looked at and said, wow, you're off your rocker. Nobody you'd be working remotely. You know, I think, I don't think I could be very productive from working at home. So it's, don't be so ridiculous. And then within six weeks it was forced, but even three weeks or so, it was forced. And certainly we all learned how to work remotely. Now we know how productive we can be are 

[00:33:09] Harry: Yeah. That was never the case that happened. Steven, because I remember back in back 2019, somebody coming into the office and there were five people in the office and. she's, And she said, where's everybody else. and I said, I've got no idea. No, because I'm not looking at what they're doing or anything like that. It's, that they'll be doing something productive wherever they are. 

[00:33:29] Stephen: And it's fantastic. Yeah. That empowerment just to just drive so many different things that you don't need to feel like you need to check everybody is.

[00:33:38] So you think the four day week, I know they have Donnish in Iceland. They have at the moment, I did, I think they did about five years, offish, which 2,500 civil service workers seem to have worked quite well. And they've done it with them and they've also Uh, Unilever now trying to do it in New Zealand at the moment with the help of Andrew Barnes on this. I think it's really interesting because I talked to some school students only last week about this. So I talked to school students about some other stuff. And while I was there, I said, you're the future, leaders in the employees that are going to come into workforce in a couple of years time. So you, have the guys that are that, that. are going to go into a world of work. that hopefully will be different to what your parents experienced or what your grandparents experienced. And I explained to them the idea of the concept of the four-day working week. And then of course, they're going to put their hands up. We have a discussion of elders about the, how could that possibly be? that you could work Four days a week. And I said, and you will get paid five days a week, if that's the case. in some organizations, whatever your organizations. And then we talk about universal basic income. And then we talk about flexibility within the workspace. And then we talk about all the other things that I generally talk about when it comes to work spaces. Because I said your generation are completely different. You've more information available to you. You're less likely to put up with what your grandparents put up, put into working space. Nobody's going to work in a coal mine any longer. If they realize that they could probably work in a wind farm and. that's gone a completely different route altogether, but their vote energy-based jobs. And I had one kid talking about, he wants to be an already driver and I said really, is there going to be lottery drivers in 10 years time or the just going to be self-driving cars. So do we need to reimagine the world of work for all of us.

[00:35:08] And what do you see ahead then? What do you say ahead for the word work? How Big. Do you think it's changing? What are the big differences for organizations now, if they want to do what you have done and happy and retained your staff, and you don't have problems with the great resignation, what are the key things that people you think need to put in place 

[00:35:23] Harry: They clearly need to put in place a culture of trust and freedom. So what people don't like is. Blame cultures, micromanagement being told what to do, what they do like is, as we said, doing something you're great, greater having the trust and freedom to do it well, having a manager who coaches rather than tells having a no blame culture ideally celebrating mistakes and flexible working and possibly four days a week working. I put those in place and you'll have a happy, productive workplace. And I'm hoping that's what the future is. I'm hoping the future will be that, but who knows, they, they asked some grotty leadership and companies out that so who knows what the future will hold? 

[00:36:05] Stephen: It's been an absolute pleasure to be able to chat with you about how we can create workplaces that are happy. Is there any last thing that you want to finish on and share with our listeners about the world of workplace happiness?

[00:36:16] Harry: Well I want I I want your listeners to go away and do this, right? It's like one of my colleagues went to his finance director and said, I want to create a happy workplace. And the financial director said I, why do I have work? Well, I want to see from you is a, B and C. And so my colleague said to him, oh, okay. So if I deliver you a, B and C, it doesn't matter how I do it. An opponent's director said no, of course not. I want a, B and C. Um, So the, that my colleague went away and created a happy workplace. So don't limit yourself, work out what, if you're learning a couple. Then go a hell for leather for this kind of stuff. If you're not running a company, work out what it is that the bosses want, but deliver it through creating trust and freedom and a happy workplace. Do all of that and feel free to come and chat to us. You know, We can help you create a happy workplace where, which can be far more productive. 

[00:37:13] Stephen: In the short space of time, if you joined the happy workplace leadership program that had Reese happy and provides you find that you who will be the one making the decisions within about three or four months, which is a pairing and scary at the same time, but it's the way forward because you're empowering Great leaders make people feel good about themselves. Yeah. That's what it's all about. Isn't it making people feel good about themselves.

[00:37:32] Henry, it's been an absolute pleasure knowing you even up to this point, because I know myself and yourself, I think it was about 2013. I first met you at the Google offices when you did the happy workplace conference. Then I think the book had just come out at that time and you'd done your first hoppy workplace conference and it was one of the first one I'd been to. And I've been to. all the subsequent ones since now. They're online well. So when is your next online one in London?

[00:37:56] Harry: The next online one in London is may the 12th. 

[00:37:58] Stephen: may the 12th set us know. 

[00:38:00] Harry: it's no fun way to do check in fit. You can find it on our website, happy.co.uk. And let me some fabulous speakers and some great interaction it's virtual by the way. That one is and, but our virtual conferences, people find even more engaging than our VR ones. Cause we have tons of breakouts. You'll get to meet many many people you'd probably get to meet a third of the conference in breakouts. 

[00:38:23] Stephen: That's fantastic. Yeah. That's six hours feels like it's a bed 60 minutes. To be honest, if that's how fast it goes it's so engaging and it's so, so exciting. henry. it's been an absolute pleasure to spend this the the morning talking to you as well. So thank you so much for all the great work you've done in creating your own world of work that's very different to the world of work that we expected for so many years, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. Thanks for taking part. 

[00:38:45] Harry: Thank you, Stephen. It's been fabulous.