Fr. Steve Pullis: Welcome to Open Door Policy. Each episode, Danielle Center and I sit down with a different guest, to hear how the Lord is unleashing the gospel through this guest's life in the Archdiocese of Detroit. And today we are blessed to be with Laura Knaus from our Department of Catholic Schools. Laura, how are you? Laura Knaus: Great. Thanks Father Steve. How are you? Fr. Steve Pullis: Thank you. I am doing great. And the real star of Open Door Policy, the one, the only Danielle Center. What say you Danielle? How are you? Danielle Center: Hey, FSP. How are things? Fr. Steve Pullis: I am a okay DC. Danielle Center: Good. Fr. Steve Pullis: Shoot, I did that? You like that? Danielle Center: Thanks. Thank you. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle, what's the Lord doing in your life? Danielle Center: So I had a big week and there have been a lot of things, but the one that I was thinking this morning like, "Okay, what grace should I talk about?" And this one is the one that's been like real for me. So I'm going to do a couple of things right here. This is kind of intense. First of all, just kind of destroy the stigma surrounding mental health care a little bit. Fun fact, I go to therapy. I think that you knew that. I don't know how many of the listeners did. Would 100% recommend, 10 for 10, such a great experience. There shouldn't be a stigma around it. And I have a therapist and her ... I don't know if I'm allowed to say her name, but she has a name and I was talking to her- Fr. Steve Pullis: Why don't you say her name and then we'll just bleep it out so it sounds really serious? [crosstalk 00:01:26]. Danielle Center: Sounds like a bad [inaudible 00:01:28]? Fr. Steve Pullis: Right. Danielle Center: Okay. So I was talking to her and I was like, "Hey girl. How ..." The other day when we had our therapy phone meeting, she was like ... We were just chatting and I was like, "Hey, how's everything on the client front?" I think is how I asked it. And she paused and she was like, "If you're asking me how everyone seems to be doing, everyone seems to be dealing with some level of hopelessness, helplessness and/or depression." And I was like ... And then she said to me, "Does that ring a bell?" And I was like, "Yeah." Danielle Center: And I just wanted to bring that up, because it actually has given me a lot of grace in my life. Like, I wake up and I'm like, "This is another day of quarantine and it's really hard for me." And I'm like, "But a lot of people are there, this doesn't make me a bad Christian. This is just where I am." And a lot of people and a lot of saints have just struggled with hard seasons. And so just wanted to throw that word out there to the listeners too, if anyone else feels like they're there, I felt like I was and it helped me a lot. So kind of an intense opener but it's where I'm going. So how about you? Where [crosstalk 00:02:41]? Fr. Steve Pullis: I cannot match you in intensity. Danielle Center: [crosstalk 00:02:44] vulnerability. Yeah. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. No, that's beautiful and thank you for sharing that. I do know how important and vital mental health is, and how therapy can help people in all walks of life. So praise God for you being vulnerable and sharing that with us. For me, I have some vacation coming up in a couple of weeks and I am super, super excited for that. I'm going to go on a little road trip out West, take it about 10 days. Going to drive out to Arizona and kind of circle back, going to drive through this big state in the middle of the country that starts with an N and ends in a ... I don't ... Nebraska. Yes, anyway. So I am very excited for that. These road trip things sometimes you do a lot of planning ahead of time or getting excited for where you're going to be, so I am pumped about that. Danielle Center: That's super awesome. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, a little bit longer of an opener than usual. But Laura Knaus, are you ready to answer some rapid fire questions? Laura Knaus: Yes, please. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right, I'm going to go ahead and ask, and then Danielle will be the follow up, let's dig a little deeper person. First question, what is the first job that you had? Laura Knaus: I was a soccer referee. Fr. Steve Pullis: What's the most beautiful church you visited? Laura Knaus: Cliché, St. Peter's in Rome. Fr. Steve Pullis: What song has been stuck in your head recently? Laura Knaus: Jenny 867- Laura Knaus: (singing) Fr. Steve Pullis: Eight, six, seven ... Okay, in which fictional world would you want to live? Laura Knaus: Harry Potter. Fr. Steve Pullis: What is your favorite breakfast food? Laura Knaus: Eggs Benedict. Fr. Steve Pullis: What was the location of one of your most powerful encounters with God? Laura Knaus: The very small chapel at the retreat center at Broom Tree in South Dakota. Fr. Steve Pullis: What Bible verse are you kind of attracted to these days? Laura Knaus: John 8:32. Fr. Steve Pullis: Have you ever met anyone famous other than Danielle Center? Laura Knaus: I met the guys in the band O.A.R.. Fr. Steve Pullis: What is your favorite book? Laura Knaus: Pride and Prejudice. Fr. Steve Pullis: And because you're such a great guest, we're going to give you an 11th bonus question. What is your favorite item of clothing ever? Laura Knaus: I have a sparkly black dress that I really like. Fr. Steve Pullis: Awesome. Danielle Center: Okay, I'm going to jump in here. First of all, eggs Benedict. Why is that your favorite breakfast food? Do you make it? Does someone make it? Where do you get the best one? Fr. Steve Pullis: Is that a paper statement you're making about which Pope, what has been your favorite or? Sorry. Danielle Center: Do you know eggs Benedictus? Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. I do. I'm just [crosstalk 00:05:50]. Danielle Center: Okay. Laura Knaus: Eggs Benedict the 16th. Danielle Center: Eggs Benedict the 16th. Laura Knaus: I do not make it myself which is maybe why it's my favorite, because it's not something that I'm going to make by myself because I don't feel like I can make the sauce. Actually I've never tried. I just kind of assumed I couldn't. So I just like eggs Benedict wherever I can get it. Danielle Center: John 8:32, elaborate. Laura Knaus: So that is the scripture verse, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. And I don't know. It spoke to me, it stuck with me and is I think that truth is very difficult to come by sometimes these days. I feel like it's we don't know what's true and what's not from a political perspective or the news, that type of thing. And I think the truth of Jesus sets us free, and I think that we need to kind of grasp on to that and realize that even in the midst of some pretty tumultuous times. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle and Laura, I'm going to interrupt just for a minute to ask you an awesome question. Have you guys seen that autotune YouTube video of John Paul II saying that line and him interacting with people? Danielle Center: No, but now I want to. Tell me everything. Fr. Steve Pullis: Autotune to that. It is fantastic. It is like three minutes of pure joy. Fr. Steve Pullis: (singing) Danielle Center: I'm just going to write that into my notes right here. Okay. And then Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen fan. And there are a lot of Jane Austen books and that's maybe her best known, but that's not necessarily everyone's favorite. Is there a reason why that one is your favorite? Laura Knaus: I just kind of like it. I don't know. It was a captivating story. I didn't read it until a few years ago. And so I just, I enjoyed the story. It was one of those, once you get past the first partwhich is a little bit boring, and you just kind of can't put it down. Danielle Center: Yeah. And then Broom Tree, South Dakota, what's going on there and where were you? What's that about? Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, and this is not the first time it's been mentioned on this podcast, so that's getting a lot of love out there. Laura Knaus: Yeah, so I actually don't know what town it's in, in South Dakota. Fr. Steve Pullis: It is in Irene, South Dakota. Laura Knaus: Irene, that's right. That's right. And there were a few years in a row where I would go on a retreat there, and it's just kind of in the middle of nowhere, a few hours away from Lincoln, Nebraska where I had been living, and it's just a really peaceful, beautiful place, very simple. But just had some really powerful prayer experiences there, in the midst of those retreats that I had an opportunity to go to. The little chapel, it has these little doors on the tabernacle so you can expose the Eucharist and pray there, and I just have had some really powerful experiences there in the time that I've been on retreat. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle, have you been to South Dakota? Danielle Center: No, and now that you're saying this, I'm like, "Man, I should go to South Dakota." Gosh. What else is South Dakota known for? Badlands? Fr. Steve Pullis: It's got some Badlands, Mount Rushmore, Wall Drug. Danielle Center: Yeah. Laura Knaus: [inaudible 00:09:12]. Fr. Steve Pullis: It's great. It's one of my favorite Dakotas. Danielle Center: Have you ever listened to the band O.A.R. Father Steve? Fr. Steve Pullis: I have- Danielle Center: And also have you ever met them? And also, did you get an autograph from the bad boy? Fr. Steve Pullis: I have, yes. All of ... No. I've seen them come on the radio. I couldn't tell you a song of theirs right now. Laura, can you sing us a little O.A.R? Laura Knaus: I will not do that. But the Crazy Game of Poker song from years ago, is one you might recognize. I'm trying to think of any recent song. So I met them when I was in college. So they're probably just the most famous people besides Danielle Center that I've met. Danielle Center: Well, one last one. Harry Potter, do you have a favorite location? It is, you get one place to visit in Harry Potter's world, where do you go? Laura Knaus: I would probably go to Diagon Alley would be my guess, or the Room of Requirement would be kind of cool. It's been a while since I've read the Harry Potter books, but I did love them. Fr. Steve Pullis: How many are there, Laura? Are there nine? Laura Knaus: There are seven. Fr. Steve Pullis: Thanks for sharing all this with us. Laura Knaus: My pleasure. Danielle Center: So I think that this is something that Father Steve might not know. So Laura works for Father Steve but Laura, you and I actually met- Fr. Steve Pullis: No, she does not. Danielle Center: Don't you guys work with each other? Laura Knaus: Doesn't everyone work for Father Steve? Fr. Steve Pullis: Get out of here. Danielle Center: Or indirectly together in the Archdiocese? Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, we work together in the Archdiocese. Get out of here. Danielle Center: Laura and I actually met at a Mexican restaurant maybe in, I want to say like late fall, and I got to hear a little bit of your story that you're not originally from Detroit. Can you tell us a little bit about what brought you here and what the Holy Spirit's been doing? Laura Knaus: Sure. So I had been living prior to moving to Detroit, I moved to Detroit in July of 2019, to work for the Archdiocese but I had been living in Lincoln, Nebraska prior to that. I actually moved to Lincoln, Nebraska from Wisconsin when I was in middle school. I grew up Catholic. I always went to Mass when I was younger. We always prayed before meals, it was just kind of normal. That's just what we did. After I moved to Nebraska, I felt like I had gone to Catholic schools up until middle school, and through middle school and high school, and felt that I was very well catechized I think during my Catholic school years, particularly here in Lincoln. Laura Knaus: The summer after I graduated from high school, I had gone on a retreat. And it was a retreat that a lot of kids went to in my high school, and just not something I wanted to do in high school. But the summer after I graduated, it's called Teens Encounter Christ, and it was an experience of prayer and encounter with Jesus that I'd never really had before. I want to say it didn't stick, but it was something that I can look back and think about that's one of the times when God was working on me. I feel like God's been working on me for a very long time. I went to college. I went to the University of Nebraska and was kind of involved with the Newman Center, kind of not involved. Laura Knaus: I got involved with some other things in college too. So it was just sort of half in, half out of the church. Still went to Mass for the most part, got involved with some of the retreats there and RCAA. The spring of my sophomore year of college, I studied abroad and I spent the semester in the Czech Republic, and after that I got to travel a little bit, and I went to Rome and I got to see John Paul II. So he had an audience and that was something I really didn't understand at the time. I was in [inaudible 00:13:15], the hall. The Paul VI Hall, is what it is? I'm not sure it is but it's one of the [crosstalk 00:13:19]. Danielle Center: With that big thing in the back, the kind of like sprawling bush thing? Yeah. Laura Knaus: The thing, yes. It was the thing at the back. Danielle Center: The not so attractive looking thing? Laura Knaus: Yes, yes. So I was in this giant hall with a whole bunch of strangers, and John Paul II came on stage and he was old at the time, and I just started weeping. And I had no idea what was going on. And so I was like, "Oh, that's cool," and then just kind of went on my way. But I went to World Youth Day that year too. So I came back from my time abroad and then went to World Youth Day in Toronto, which was another encounter with him. I don't know what it was about him. My parents were ... Or my grandparents, excuse me, were Polish immigrants and I think that I've always kind of been drawn to the Polishness of John Paul II. Laura Knaus: But then in college, I never really figured out what I was going to do. I always thought I'd study something, and then become a lawyer and move on with my life. But I started working at a summer camp when I was in college as well, a Catholic summer camp in Wisconsin, where I got to just have fun and be around kids, and we got to lead devotions. And it was a Catholic camp. It was a great experience for me of working in Catholic community. And I thought, at that time I said, "Oh, maybe I should be a teacher." I went back to college and said, "I think I want to be a teacher," and they said, "Well, you're going to be in school this many more years if you want to do that." Laura Knaus: So I said, "Forget that," and I got a business degree actually. So I just finished school, and then decided to volunteer at the same camp for a year after I graduate from college. I've always been drawn to service, and that was something that it was a way for me to give. And I loved camp and I loved doing that. So we taught outdoor education for kids, we lead retreats, did conformation retreats, spiritual retreats, leadership retreats, that type of thing. And so I've always kind of felt called to serve. Laura Knaus: And then after I finished that year of service in Wisconsin, I started a teaching program, a service teaching program in Chicago. So I moved to Chicago and taught for two years at a Catholic school there. And early on in that experience, I felt called to administration, to leadership in Catholic schools. And again, this was just kind of my experience of the faith. It was a very challenging two years of service in Chicago, and I decided to stay even though I didn't have a job. I called it my fun employment time, because I was just living in Chicago and not really doing anything with myself. Laura Knaus: And I remember this moment and I realized, "God has given me so many gifts and experiences, what am I doing? What am I doing with myself?" I was not very happy, because I wasn't doing anything and I was just traipsing around Chicago. And when I decided, it's kind of this, "What did I love doing?" And I actually went to California for a brief period of time back to outdoor education, because it was something that I loved. It was a CIO camp out there. And then again, I found myself in this position of, "What am I going to do with my life?" and figured I would come back to where my parents are. Laura Knaus: And I got a teaching job in Lincoln thinking I would be here for a year, till I figured out what I was actually going to do with my life, and realized in that that this is where I was supposed to be. So I got to work at this little Catholic school in Lincoln, Nebraska and realized, "Okay, this is where I'm meant to be. This is where God wants me to be." And then I started an administrative program to be a principal, thinking 10 years down the road I'll become a principal. It was always Catholic schools too. I don't know why I just never had any desire to work anywhere other than the Catholic school. Fr. Steve Pullis: Did you go to a Catholic school growing up? Laura Knaus: I did. I went to Catholic schools kindergarten through 12th grade. Fr. Steve Pullis: Okay. Laura Knaus: So I went to Sacred Hearts School in Wisconsin, and then went to St. Joseph School and then Pius X here in Lincoln. Fr. Steve Pullis: And Danielle, you were homeschooled, right? Was that the whole shebang from kindergarten through high school? Danielle Center: Yeah. I am one of five kids and I was the only one to do all of my education at home until college. So everyone had a different experience, but I'm always interested in school because it's like a world I didn't know. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, so I'm a product like you Laura, through and through of Catholic school. So you're talking about your life as a Catholic school teacher wanting to be a Catholic school administrator. Laura Knaus: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So I started this administrative program at the University of Notre Dame to become a principal, thinking 10 years down the road I would become a principal and just things happened, and I became a principal a year later. So I was pretty young at the time, and so I then became responsible for forming the people who were forming the children at the school, which it was in the program at the University of Notre Dame, the Mary Ann Remick Leadership Program where I really learned what a Catholic school is, and how beautifully the church talks about our schools as places of evangelization. Laura Knaus: And that was that thing that in all of my time as a student and as a teacher up till that point, I had never read any of the church documents on Catholic education, and really just was really steeped in the beautiful way that the church speaks at the schools. And that was the first time I remember praying Liturgy of the Hours, and just it was an excellent formation program where I then learned how to form others. And so right after I finished that program, I came back to Lincoln and to have taken a Theology of the Body class, from a priest here who teaches these classes and was really faced with this idea of, "I'm forming these people and I don't know what I'm doing." Laura Knaus: And so I had received this wonderful formation in what the Church teaches our schools are, and I think that I personally was just kind of missing part of the point of our faith and I had never ... I don't know how this happened but the faith for me was just something I did. It wasn't about relationship for me. It was just kind of like "Oh, yeah, you go to Mass, you follow these rules, you do these things and that's kind of how it is." And- Danielle Center: It's like a moral code. Laura Knaus: Yeah, it was just, that was normal, that's routine. That's kind of it. It's a good thing. And not to say that it didn't have points in my life where I felt the presence of God, those things were very real to me but the theology, the Body class just kind of like knocked me over as far as- Fr. Steve Pullis: Can I ask Laura, is this Father Sean Kilcawley? Laura Knaus: It is. It is, yes. You know him. He's a Michigan native. Fr. Steve Pullis: I do. And he's come out to give a talk to some of our educators before you got here, and I was super impressed with his ability to break open Theology of the Body. Oftentimes, when people talk about TOB, Theology of the Body, it's just in the way we relate sexually, the way we think about our sexual nature with in relation to marriage or chastity. But I thought he did one of the best jobs I've seen of explaining the whole Theology of the Body, and how it relates into all these other places of our lives and I thought he was super gifted with that. Laura Knaus: Yes, I would agree with that. He's had a tremendous impact on my life, and part of it was that class. It was a jumping point to just really understanding the truth of what it means to be a person. I mean, that's what Theology the Body is. It's like, what is our identity and who are we before God? And it was hearing that message and how he presented it, where I was just kind of rocked. I was like, "I don't get this. I don't understand this. I don't know what this is." From then he became a spiritual director actually for a number of years, and I'll never forget one of the first times I met with him, he asked these two questions. And the first one was, "Who is Jesus?" And the second one was, "Who are you to Jesus?" Laura Knaus: And I just remember like a deer in the headlights. I was like, "Who is Jesus?" And I was like, "The Savior of the world," a sort of impersonal like, "This is the answer I'm supposed to give you" sort of thing. And then "Who are you to Jesus?" was the question I answered, "I don't know. Some schmo who hopefully doesn't screw up too much" sort of thing. Just reflecting on that, "If that's who I think I am to Jesus, okay, there's problem here" sort of thing. And so that was something that was ... From that point, I really learned how to pray. I prayed with Scripture for the first time, and he guided me a lot through that and how to do that. Laura Knaus: Through Lectio Divina, so praying with Scripture, I really encountered the love of God in a way that I'd never experienced before, and that has transformed every aspect of my life. I went from someone who was trying to earn God's love, I can do enough, I can earn God's love, to that's not who I am and that's not who God is. And really understanding that who I am matters to God, and He loves me no matter what and wants me to live in that and share that with other people. And so those were some really important moments in my own transformation, and that's an ongoing process. Conversion is an ongoing process and- Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, especially as someone that, I see you as very driven and very competent, and really looking to get things done, that can be a trap that we fall into where we're kind of measuring our success or our worth based on what we do, because we like doing things or because we're always kind of a driven personality. I think that can be a trap, where we start to define relationships that way instead of in a deeper way with the Lord. Laura Knaus: Absolutely. And that was definitely something that has been a problem for me, and just trying to ... I think Brene Brown is the one who's like, "I have to hustle for my worth." And so it's like, "Well, if I just do enough then I'll be worth it," and to wrestle with that can be a very difficult thing, a very painful thing to understand that it's not about that. Fr. Steve Pullis: A great way to get out of that is by living through a quarantine, where you're stuck at home and can't do anything for a month, at least that's how I feel. I don't know about you, Danielle. Danielle Center: It's been longer than month. Fr. Steve Pullis: For months, yeah. Danielle Center: Yeah, here we are though. Laura Knaus: Here we are. Yeah, and so these are the things that were just striking to me, and I didn't really know how to handle them. I didn't know how to process what was going on and like, how do I actually receive God's love? And how do I receive who I am from God? rather than trying to build that and create that. When I was praying with the Gospel of John in Nicodemus where Jesus says to him, "You're the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this" when he was talking about being born of the Spirit. And that struck me because here I am, a leader of a Catholic school and I don't understand what it means to be loved by God, talk about for someone who's an achiever, that was an important point of, "Okay, this isn't about what I can do. This is what ... I need to realize that this is about what God can do through me." That was a transformative point for me is when I went from like, "Look what I'm going to do to allowing God to work through me." Danielle Center: Okay, so we did some time in Nebraska and then you ended up in Detroit, was that something you had expected to see happen or what kind of brought you here? Fr. Steve Pullis: Who does not want to end up in Detroit, right? Who- Danielle Center: For sure. Fr. Steve Pullis: Children around the country are going to bed tonight saying, "Mommy, daddy-" Danielle Center: Wishing on a star. Fr. Steve Pullis: "... Father God, can you please help me get to Detroit one day." Anyway, go ahead. Laura Knaus: Never in a million years did I think I would end up in Detroit. So when I was in my eighth year as a principal at a school here in Nebraska, I'm actually in Nebraska right now visiting my parents, so I'm doing this remotely. But yeah, I knew I was leaving and I had no idea what I was going to do. And a mentor of mine sent me the job opening here in Detroit and I said, "Oh, that's nice. Looks like a great job. No, thanks. Detroit's a little bit random for me." I'd heard of it but that was about it. Fr. Steve Pullis: "I had heard of it." Laura Knaus: I'd never visited, never really had an interest. And then a couple of weeks go by and somebody else sent me the same job opening and said, "I think you should apply for this job." And I said, "Okay, well, I'll check it out," which led to a conversation with the superintendent and he said, "Oh, send me your information." And I said, "Okay, great, I'll just have a conversation with this guy, and then politely decline any sort of involvement with Detroit." He sent me the Unleashing Our Catholic Schools document to look over, and just see if I was interested in being part of what he was trying to build here in Detroit. And in that document, obviously, it references Unleash the Gospel quite a few times. Laura Knaus: And so I was actually going to be interviewing with the interview team, and I said, "Oh, well, this document seems kind of important. I should read it." And so in preparation for my interview for the position with the Department of Catholic schools, I read Unleash the Gospel and I have a vivid memory of sitting in my apartment with this printed out copy of Unleash the Gospel, and just audibly as I was reading it just like, "Yeah, this is what we need to be doing." I was just moved in a way that was entirely unexpected and just really compelling to me. I couldn't stop reading it and it was just I think spot on. Laura Knaus: I think you could and I think other people have said this too, you could just remove Detroit and insert any city here, and this is what we need in the church. I just found it to be a beautiful document, incredibly compelling. And then I interviewed for the job, went to visit Detroit for the interview and now I have lived there for just about 11 months. I love the city. I think it's an awesome city. I really enjoy it and I get a lot of ... Actually it was funny because when I first was moving to Detroit, people would be like, "Oh, hey, where are you going?" I said, "Oh, Detroit." They're like, "Oh, huh." Fr. Steve Pullis: "Huh. Hmm." Laura Knaus: "All right." And then when I got to Detroit, they were like, "Where are you from?" And I said, "Nebraska." And they were like, "Oh, huh. What's that like?" And so it was just kind of a funny ... Both sides were like, "I don't know anything about that place." But I've loved working for the Archdiocese. Fr. Steve Pullis: I remember you coming Laura and having lunch with you, and you were doing a little, when school's department was feeling you out and you were feeling them out to see if it would be a good fit. Danielle Center: From both of you, in your experiences as Catholic students, and then in Catholic leadership, what were some of the things that you have from your childhood that you hope that this generations of students can receive from their Catholic education? Fr. Steve Pullis: Well, I think on that score, I'm very grateful for the support my family, especially my parents gave me. Catholic schools I think have come a long way and we're still making progress to really, to live fully the Catholic worldview, in a world that more and more puts forward a different not just definition of happiness in the world, but a radically different definition of the human person. What flourishing looks like, what it means to interact with each other. These foundational differences between what Christ offers in his church, and what the world, especially parts of the world that have pulled far away from those roots in natural law and those roots in God-given revelation, just putting forward a radically different worldview. Fr. Steve Pullis: My hope for Catholic education is that our young people can be rooted in this worldview that puts God at the center of our lives, that they know they have a vocation, a calling from God, and that they're called to do some definite service, that God has a plan for their lives and their plan is not divorced from God's plan for the world, and that God loves them and his plan is for their flourishing here on earth and their ultimate happiness in heaven. That's it. That's what I have. Go ahead, Laura. Laura Knaus: I don't think I really appreciated the value of my Catholic education until I became an adult when I was able to really appreciate the opportunities that I had and to know that I was loved by God and in this community, which again, I don't think I really recognized as a child but I had a lot of support. We went to mass. When I moved to Lincoln, when I was an elementary school, we went to mass every day. And that was something that was new to me, but was an experience and even when I was a teacher and a principal here in Lincoln, we got to go to mass every day together. So there's this common worship. Again, it was just normal to me. And that goes back to the Catholic worldview. It's how we see people. Laura Knaus: I think that's what one of the things that sets our Catholic schools apart is who we see these children and coworkers in our schools to be our reflections of God. They're the image of God and how we treat them and what that means and the reality of what that means and how we can live fully as Catholic Christians in a community in a way that changes our life. Change is loving for society and changes the world. I think that our schools can and should be a place of formation in that we're again that radical decision to follow Christ and putting that above everything else is what our schools should be about and are about. That's something again, it's that's what we should be striving to do in our schools and to really form followers of Jesus who can then form other followers of Jesus. I don't know if that answered your question, but. Fr. Steve Pullis: I think it was a better answer than I gave. Danielle Center: You guys both gave great answers, don't be so hard on yourselves. Fr. Steve Pullis: I give you an A minus on your answer and a B plus for me. [crosstalk 00:34:28]. Laura Knaus: Let me see the rubric. Danielle Center: When we were talking before, Laura, you said something. I don't even know if you remember saying this, but it has stuck with me for the past few months. You talked about something, like you called it... You didn't want to give a kid only so much Jesus, that they became "inoculated" against the faith, kind of like, "Here's a taste of the faith," but not like a invitation to relationship and discipleship. It's just enough for a kid to be like, "Oh, yeah. I went to Catholic school. I'm not into that kind of stuff." That kind of thing. I thought that was really stunning, and something to think about a lot and something to really work against. Just in that vein, like that's a big project. For you guys as Catholic leaders, what are your thoughts on that? How do we do a good job of really forming kids instead of just inoculating them against something good? Laura Knaus: I really think it starts with each of us as individuals. I think that we talk about the new evangelization and what's new about evangelization. It's how we do it. It's the energy with which we do it, but I think that it has to start with ourselves. We have to recognize that our ongoing conversion and our ongoing formation is really essential to forming others. And so one of the things that was most compelling about this opportunity here at the Archdiocese for me was to work with principles. Because the principles working with pastors are instrumental in the spiritual leadership of a school, and so if our principles are formed well, then they will work to form the teachers and walk with them. Laura Knaus: That idea of accompaniment is so important, and we as a community, should be working towards knowing Jesus more and loving him better and being loved more by him, and accepting that and growing as disciples together. But I think it starts with our own formation. And really, I think that once someone has made that decision to be a follower of Jesus, you can't help but want to bring people with you. That's something that I've experienced in my life. It's like Benedict says in- Fr. Steve Pullis: Ex-Benedict or Pope Benedict? Laura Knaus: Ex-Benedict the XVI. Fr. Steve Pullis: Sorry. Laura Knaus: Nice. I like that. Way to bring it back. But it's not being a Christian, being a follower of Jesus isn't about like some ethical choice, and I think we've reduced it to that in a lot of ways. And so, I mean, why would I just want to follow all these rules? I mean, nobody wants to do that. You follow a person, and the rules don't mean anything if you don't know the person. And so this idea of, oh, it's just this really hard thing that you're probably going to fail at, isn't fair because that's not what it's about. It's about radical transformation. Laura Knaus: I think that the dumbing down of the faith, the reduction of the faith has had detrimental impacts on the church and on individuals as well. It's like, we have something like what Jesus is offering us his full life in him, and we've reduced it to, I don't know, something that's not authentic and it's just not appealing, then I don't think it's... It's lukewarm, and nobody wants tepid anything. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. Especially when it runs counter to the ethos, the spirit of the world, because the more and more the gospel becomes against what the popular culture or general society is proposing, the more it takes a conviction for us to proclaim it and to live it. And so when John Paul II articulated the new evangelization that Pope Paul VI kind of called for, but John Paul II really broke that open to [inaudible 00:39:04] to understand it. He said, "it's new in ardor, new in methods, and new in expressions." So we need a new ardor, a new fervor and desire and conviction about the truths of the gospel, and not just the truth, but the relationship that the gospel invites us into. Fr. Steve Pullis: And to share that with 21st century men and women, we need to have new expressions, things that speak to their lives and their experiences, and new methods, new ways of proclaiming the gospel. So those who are attentive to all these things will know that, Laura's phrasing about the dumbing down of Catholicism is often mentioned by Bishop Baron, who to me is like the one way out front leading us into what it means for us to think about new methods of proclaiming the gospel, his leadership in this call for the new evangelization that we need to be convicted more and more about. Laura Knaus: Well, and Bishop Aaron, I think is having a tremendous impact on the church, so people who are already part of the church. But his going out, he engages with the culture in a way that nobody else does. And that's what we all need to be doing somehow. I think that his ministry of equipping evangelizers is really transformative, and the Word on Fire Institute, and his commentary on YouTube and all of the resources, I think he just gets it in a way that he's so confident in who he is, and the truth of what he's proclaiming. That's appealing and people respond to that. He's incredibly articulate and intelligent, and that's attractive. Fr. Steve Pullis: Wait. Are you talking about Bishop Baron right now or- Laura Knaus: Yes. Danielle Center: No, you. Fr. Steve Pullis: Just kidding. Just teasing you guys. Danielle Center: I don't work a lot with like young people, but I sometimes get put in those positions because people are like, "You seem like you'd like kids." I do like them, I just don't work with them a lot. One thing that I'm always really struck by whenever I interact with middle school, high schoolers is how incredibly hard each of their battles is. What high schoolers and middle schoolers face is so intense, Internet, cyber bullying, online pornography, let alone like just questions about identity and self. All of these things are so intense. Danielle Center: Whenever I think about those things, one year I was a camp counselor up at Camp Sancta Maria and I remember talking to Father Spezia, who I think you guys both know too. He was the chaplain of the time. He was like, "You know what?" He's like, "Maybe 50 or 60 years ago when kids went to summer camp, and they had intact family structures and neighborhoods who cared about them and like all these things, maybe all they needed to do was hold hands and sing Kumbaya." And he's like, "But today's kids are facing such intense battles that I feel like I need to give them the best tools, like the best tools that we have as Christian faithfuls." Danielle Center: So like you said, Laura mass every day and adoration and access to the sacraments, confession. I just really loved his perspective of like, these are not people who are going to be Christians one day, these are leaders in their realms today. They're fighting such hard battles, and need such good care and guidance and mentorship, and all of that as well. But it's something that's never left me too. Fr. Steve Pullis: I think you're right. These are unprecedented challenges that young people are facing, and not just young people, but particularly in this conversation young people, and it requires unprecedented response. "Where sin abounds," St. Paul says, "Grace abounds all the more." So as the darkness of the world can get more intense, if you think about that in a macro way, or just one person's particular life, the grace of God abounds all the more. And so that should be our call to hope. Laura, just to bring this to a close here, we usually give our guests the last word. Is there anything you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up? Laura Knaus: Yeah, actually. Thanks. I wanted to share just a brief story that goes back to what Danielle said at the very beginning, so these times of isolation and just difficulty for a lot of people. I live alone and I have the Tremblays. Actually Danielle, that's how I met Danielle. They introduced us. But throughout they've become very good friends of mine. They're wonderful people and we would FaceTime, once a week or so, just to check in during quarantine and on Holy Saturday. Holy Saturday was a really tough day for me. I feel like God was very good to me during this time of quarantine. Laura Knaus: I live in Detroit. I don't have any family near me at all. And on Holy Saturday, it was a particularly just difficult day for me. I was really sad because I couldn't go home for Easter and all of the Easter things. I made perigee with my mom on FaceTime and it just made me sad and all of these things. I had a scheduled time of chatting with them and I was a mess. I was crying and I said, "I'm not going to talk to them right now. Hey, can we move it to later?" And thinking I could get myself together, and pull it together before they had to see me as this hot mess express, crying and everything. Laura Knaus: It got to the point where we had rescheduled and I just said... I texted and I said, "Hey, I'm a mess right now because I'm really sad." Katy replied, she was like, "Do you want to talk?" And I said, "No, but I think I probably should." And so, we jumped on FaceTime and they were just so good to me. In my sadness, like to invite someone into that and to be able to share that with them was what I really needed at that point in time, like to be okay. And so, you talked about how like, it's okay to struggle, just don't be afraid to reach out, I guess. And there are people who want to help you and support you, and they were that for me, and I'm so grateful for that. But it was a point of like, "I'm not going to be okay. I need someone to be with me in this." Laura Knaus: So just not being afraid to ask for help, I think is really important in a spiritual way, and socially, emotionally, all of those things. And that was really good. I mean, that's what we're supposed to do as a Catholic family and as Catholic Christians is to reach out and support people. And so, I just wanted to reiterate what you said at the beginning, like, it's really important that if you're struggling with something, ask someone, just let someone know and let people love you and help you. Danielle Center: Usually we end on that, but I am going to take this a little bit further is that yesterday, I was in one of those spots where I was... I mean, it wasn't terrible, it's just hard. I was talking to one of my friends, and usually I'm like the happy one. I was like, "I'm just having a really hard day." My friend, like we talked about it, I cried a little. And he said, "I like this part of you too. It's okay to also be in a hard spot. Like that's total friendship, not just you can see my best side but you can see all of me." So shout out to you, shout out to the Tremblay, shout out to everyone who is being a friend and everyone who needs a friend. You guys take care of yourselves. The end. Fr. Steve Pullis: Amen. Danielle Center: Big thanks to Laura Knaus, our special guest today. Big thanks to Father Steve Pullis, my co-host. Big thanks to the listeners. You guys are the best. If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends, your neighbors, your relatives, your trader Joe cashier. You can also leave us a review on iTunes. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Our handle is @opendoordetroit. Help us unleash the gospel. Open Door Policy was produced by Ron Pang [inaudible 00:48:08] and the creative team of the Archdiocese of Detroit. Laura Knaus: Doesn't everyone work for Father Steve? Danielle Center: Is that real? Fr. Steve Pullis: Cool kid out of here. I'm Father Steve Pullis with Danielle Center. Danielle Center: And this has been another episode of Open Door Policy. Danielle Center: (Silence) Danielle Center: Okay, cool. Let me know if you need anything else. Okay? Okay, we'll see what happens. Just keep me updated. I'm happy to help you guys. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Super. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you, Ron. All right. Bye