Michelle:
It has been surprising. The amount of people that now are, you know, approaching me that maybe wouldn't before, and now they can see from my witness and then they're intrigued by it. So they want to learn either more about, you know, consecrated virginity, or they're just asking me, please pray for me.
Emily:
Welcome. And thanks for listening to the new episode of Open Door Policy. I'm Emily Mentock, your host, and I'm joined tonight by Fr. Patrick Gonyeau. Fr. Patrick, how are you?
Fr. Patrick:
Great, Emily, how are you doing?
Emily:
I'm doing well. I'm recording this episode from South Bend, Indian my home, to visit my parents. I got a chance to see my sister for the first time since August, she was home from law school. So I am doing this, taking advantage of remote recording to come home for this night.
Fr. Patrick:
That is awesome. And, you just, you know, you go way back with Notre Dame, like you grew up in South Bend, right?
Emily:
I did. I mostly grew up here, so it's a bit of a homecoming. Leaving South Bend — my husband also grew up in South Bend, so leaving to go to Detroit was a big move for us. We love it. We consider it our home now, but it is nice to — that we're not so far away to make a short trip back when we need to.
Fr. Patrick:
You know, we're going to have to pull that stunt that Fr. Steve and Danielle have — you guys, if you're listening, we love you. We miss you. But they sometimes interviewed each other, at least once. And yeah, we've got to do that Emily, and catch your story of, you know, like why you came to Detroit, especially for your Holy Spirit party. So.
Emily:
Total Holy Spirit moment. I know. Oh my gosh. That'd be such a great story to tell.
Fr. Patrick:
Yeah, I got to ask you though, what what was your favorite, one of your favorite memories with your sister who you hadn't been able to spend time with in a long time?
Emily:
Oh, that's really great. You know, we were reflecting because we hadn't seen each other for so long, and sitting at the dinner table again and after we were both living here in my parents' house for the summer for about two months and just laughing about how, when she first came home from college, we were butting heads again, like we were sisters when we were little again, but then as the summer went on, we got used to each other. And so last night we were just reflecting on that and laughing about it as if all those passed time hasn't even changed anything. So that was really great to do. But Fr. Patrick, what have you been up to lately?
Fr. Patrick:
Well, a couple of maybe not super duper exciting, but I find it exciting, that here at Corpus Christi Catholic Church, where I am currently assigned, we are in the process of getting a new, like AV system with this like big video board that it can use, you know, we can utilize sacred art, like during the, during the Gospel reading, there can be a beautiful image up there. During the times of worship, we can have the lyrics up there that'll help people to worship the Lord. And we're going to get a good live-stream system. We've been getting by, but we're excited to get this new equipment that will help the in-church worship experience and also to transfer that through the live stream out there. So as a Catholic priest and just as a disciple of Jesus, I worship is — I just love worship.
Fr. Patrick:
I guess it's getting us ready for heaven. I love worship. And I get excited about our congregation getting some stuff that can help us to worship more. And visually, too, like being able to see some things sometimes helps people, especially song lyrics, but art as well. And then, then the idea of, like, the live-stream improving, 'cause it's been great to see, like, the effect — livestreaming church. And I bet every church has testimonies about this, but we get like, you know, letters, or we get offerings from people that aren't part of the parish or are from another state. And you just, the vast swath of people you can reach on the internet through live-streams and podcasts. So yeah. One more for you, Emily, what have you and your husband been up to besides visiting South Bend?
Emily:
Oh, that's a really great question. Let me think. So, he's a football reporter. Well, he's a journalist, a sports journalist, but he's actually been able to take the past two weeks a little bit easy lately because finally college football season ended. So he has been covering Notre Dame for the past several months and a really crazy year. And so we've just been chilling more trying to cook more at home, like, trying to come back with, start the new year healthy, things like that. So nothing too exciting. 'Cause we do take the pandemic safety pretty seriously. We haven't gotten to see as much of Detroit as we had hoped originally when we were moving here, but just relaxing together and letting him have that recovery period after a pretty grueling season has been our focus,
Fr. Patrick:
Was he at the college football playoff game, Notre Dame?
Emily:
No, they're, you know, they were pretty limited on journalists' travel at this time. So, which was actually a benefit for moving to Detroit because he was able to still engage with this season with all the press conferences on Zoom and things like that. So it's actually been a quieter few weeks for us lately.
Fr. Patrick:
Oh great to here. Well, I'm excited Emily for what's what's going to happen tonight. I was blessed to get to meet our guest, I believe shortly after she first moved to town. And it's just like, who is this awesome daughter of God? And then starting to hear some of her stories just so powerful. I can't wait. Really. I was sitting at a restaurant having dinner with my sister and our guest, who will soon be unveiled. And I was just, I remember sitting there, like we have to get her on Open Door Policy, but — and she graciously said, yes. So I'm thrilled. So I'm going to pitch it back to you, Emily for the formal introduction.
Emily:
Yes. So tonight we are joined by Michelle Piccolo. She is the Director of Christian Service and Media Assistant at Our Lady of Good Counsel Parish in Plymouth. And I want to introduce her with some fun facts about herself that she shared with us ahead of this podcast. So in high school, she actually played the piccolo in her high school marching band, a little tribute to her name. Also, she had a goal in her previous diocese that she was living in, in Diocese of Cleveland, that she would attend Mass at each of the parishes in Diocese of Cleveland and then write a blog post about it. She called up the Daily Mass Project and came to 82 of them before then being called to move back here to the archdiocese — or move here to the Archdiocese of Detroit, which is — that sounds like a super cool project.
Emily:
And then here's a really interesting one, and a little intimidating, but Michelle can actually dead lift 220 pounds, which is just incredible. She had a goal of deadlifting 240 by the time she turned 40, but now her goal is 250 by the time she turned 50, which is just incredible, dead lifting 250 pounds. Wow. I can't even imagine. And then one bonus fact about Michelle I wanted to share that in October, she became the Archdiocese of Detroit's fourth consecrated virgin, and I can't wait to hear more about that story on the podcast tonight. So welcome, Michelle.
Michelle:
Hello. That was a great intro. That was awesome.
Emily:
We're so glad that you're able to join us this evening.
Michelle:
Thank you for having me happy to be here.
Emily:
So maybe we can start, Fr. Patrick, can you tell us how you and Michelle met?
Fr. Patrick:
It was at a Young Catholic Professionals event and I don't remember the exact date, maybe August 1st.
Emily:
Oh wow. There you go.
Michelle:
August 1st, 2017.
Fr. Patrick:
And Michelle, you know, had just moved and so I met her that night at Young Catholic Professionals. That was it. Yeah. What do you remember that night, Michelle?
Michelle:
Yeah, well, I remember it was, the YCP's, like, kickoff event. And I was working in Ann Arbor and I remember telling my boss at the time, like, "I'm going to go to Detroit for this thing." And he was a little skeptical, like, "Where are you going in Detroit by yourself?" Like, no, it'll be great to meet other young Catholic singles and other people just to get to know people. So, yup. And I remember my friend, Kristen introduced me to you. Actually Kristen Studebaker. Yeah.
Fr. Patrick:
Kristen Studebaker. Hey, Kristen!
Michelle:
She brought you up too, yeah. Shoutout to Kristen!
Fr. Patrick:
Praise God, praise God. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle:
So yeah, that's the first time I met you. Ball of energy, you were and you are.
Fr. Patrick:
I'm glad God brought you to us here in Detroit, this consecrated virgin stuff is a pretty big deal. We're going to get, we're going to get further into it.
Michelle:
Yes. Of course. Absolutely.
Emily:
Definitely. Maybe the first question that to kick us off this evening, as you know, Michelle, we really, on this podcast, we're wanting to hear people's different experiences of faith, their journeys through faith because people have so many different stories. No two are alike. And to help, you know, just learn and hear from different joyful missionary disciples from what their life was like before encountering Christ and what that moment of encounter was, and then how they've grown in faith since then. And I've heard that you have a very, very interesting and awesome story. So I would love to just start hearing a little bit about what was your life like before encountering Christ, those earliest stages of your faith journey?
Michelle:
Ah, well, raised cradle Catholic, I guess you could say. Catholic school K through 12, right. And we went to Mass every Sunday, but as maybe you've heard from other people and is very common, you know, sacramentalized, not really catechized well, and poorly evangelized, I think is how they put it. And so I can relate to that. Received all my sacraments, you know, and, but not really having that personal encounter with Jesus and that for my — that I can recall, you know a profound moment, I just remember little moments, right? And so I would say — I'm going to fast forward a little bit and early twenties, as is typical, ou just start questioning, you know,? You just start asking the tough questions, like, wait a minute, what am I doing? And, is this real right? So I would say post-college, early young adulthood just started asking some questions and that just wasn't really done in my family. My family, especially my mother, you know, faithful Catholic, you know, we didn't really talk about our faith.
Michelle:
You know, faith is very private, was very private in our family. It was just, I don't know. I guess — like, we didn't say a family rosary every night, you know what I mean? There's different levels, right, I would say. And maybe, you know, saying grace before meals and going to Mass and receiving our sacraments, that was like the extent of it. Involved, you know, got involved in certain things at school. But it just starts to taper off. So I would say, I never say I left the Church, but I would say I kind of drifted maybe a little bit and wasn't as active. Wasn't practicing my faith as much. So I would say before the encounter with Jesus, it was in before what I called a re-version, although, you know, there's different terms for it.
Michelle:
I — it's funny, 'cause I have a hard time even thinking about my life before that. I don't remember my prayer life was like before encountering Jesus. I don't remember praying. I remember praying to the Lord for things that I wanted, you know, when times were tough, but I don't remember giving thanks and praise to him when things were good, you know? So I would say the, the main, one of the moments, 'cause I think there were several moments, but there's one key moment where I feel like I came all the way back in and like, I'm all in for Jesus, right? And prior to that, I had gotten sick and ended up in the hospital at the same time my mother was diagnosed with cancer. So it was just one of these moments where it was like, okay, like, very much hit me that it's time to — I need, I want to do something. I think I have to get serious about my faith, is what I think I realized because now I'm praying, not just for myself, my own health. Now my mother is sick. Like, it's like someone hit the brakes and I just had to focus on what was truly important. So and then I can get into like the actual moment. I don't know if you want me to pause or...
Fr. Patrick:
So, yeah, keep going. Praise God! Thank you, Lord. I mean, this is what — we're so grateful to have you here. Lord, please continue to bless Michelle.
Michelle:
So my mother, you know, revealed to me that she, you know — she revealed to all of us that she was sick and she had cancer. And this is in the summer of 2009, August, 2009. I was living in Chicago at the time. I decided I'm moving back home to Cleveland to be with my family, right? And moved back into the home there. And she was fine. She thankfully had six treatments of chemo and was in remission. So that Thanksgiving we celebrated. Right? So it was very nice. And so it was kind of like, God answered my prayers. Okay. And I just remember thinking at the time, like, I know that's not how it's supposed to work, but now it's like, "Oh, everything's okay now." And so I feel like I was on the edge of like really going all in at the moment and going back and praying and getting involved.
Michelle:
And then it was like, but she's okay now. And I'm okay. And so, you know, it's not as important. So two and a half years went by, got a little bit more involved, you know, went back to church, I suppose, but still not really active in my faith life. And then she got sick again. And so that's when it was like, okay, go. Learn, you know? And tried a Bible study, got more involved in the parish that I belong to there. And, and unfortunately, you know, she did pass away March 10th, 2013. So after she passed, and watching her pass away and being right there, I mean, it was like something in my mind just went off. Like I want to get to where she is. So how do I live my life? How do I — what do I do?
Michelle:
And started basically, I went to the, you know, St. Google and, you know, — but other than that, I, you know, I watched a lot of Bishop Barron's talks and I, again, joined things at my parish, a young adult, I was invited on young adult retreats. I went to my first young adult retreat as a young adult two weeks after my mom passed away. And it was life-changing, it was. It was great. And so I started — I learned what adoration was. Sadly, I'd had no idea what that was at 30 something years old. So just had this — it's like it set me off on like a, it was like a slingshot. I could not — I was just wanting to learn more and more, read more you know, read about the saints, read about the liturgy and like, what is he doing up there and what is the Mass all about? And, and then I became a lector. And I love to lector. I feel like God called me to that. So I thoroughly enjoy that. And that kind of — not forces you, but sort of does — if you're going to proclaim the Word, you better understand what it is that you're reading. And.
Emily:
That's exactly what Fr. Pullis would say if he was here right now.
Michelle:
Yeah. Better understand what the heck you're doing up there. So, took that more seriously, so you can't help, but get more involved. Right? And study. And if you recall, I said, you know, our faith life growing up, I mean, my dad and my family might listen to this, you know, and my mom, God, rest her soul. She, they did the best they could. Right? They did what they — I was like, but it was still, it was private. You know, I didn't see my parents going to confession. We didn't really talk about these things very openly. Like, I don't know. We just didn't. And I mean, school was great. The priests that we had, the nuns that were, they were wonderful. But when we came home, it was like, there wasn't — there was a little bit disconnect there. Right? So when I'm going through this whole thing and this learning and seeking knowledge and enjoying these groups and going to Adoration and going to daily Mass, which I had never done before, I had no one to talk to about it with, like, there was no one in my family that I could really discuss this with.
Michelle:
Because again, we're all on a different part of the journey. And here I am, and it's not like they made fun of me or anything, but they just were confused. Like, so what's up with that? What are you doing? And on one of these young adult retreats it came to pass that I learned about Theology of the Body. I learned about something called Theology of the Body, I should say. And too long of a story to get into, but I read a book by Christopher West, which I think your last guest mentioned, or somebody's guest mentioned, maybe I'm, maybe I'm thinking of a different podcast. Sorry. I don't know.
Michelle:
I swear, like someone mentioned this recently to somebody, but you know, I listen to a lot of podcasts, so maybe I'm thinking wrong, but it was Theology of the Body for Beginners, by Christopher West, very — a thinner book. And I read it in a week and it changed my life. And you might say, well, that must have been your encounter with Jesus, but no, wait, there's more.
Michelle:
So, I read it. Again, very few people to talk to about it. You know, found some people at church that I could talk to about it. Of course I found a priest who is now has been my spiritual director to talk to about it as well. But it's like, you want to share the good news? Like, wow. Like, well, this listen to this, like theology, have you heard of this thing called Theology of the Body? It is wonderful going online and talking about it. Yeah. People on social media were like, "You're whack. You're crazy. What are you talking about?" I'm like, I need to talk to other people about this. And so again, Google, and there's something called a Theology of the Body Institute. So in June of 2015, I went to their one week course called TOB 1: Head to Heart Immersion Course.
Michelle:
And that was the week that completely flipped my life upside down. Had a profound moment during one of the sessions, it's like a class /retreat, Adoration, daily Mass, and then you're getting a lecture in between, and 115 other people. And you're all just giddy about Theology of the Body. And I went back to the sacrament of reconciliation after, I tell people it must've been 23 years, because I don't remember the last time I went to confession. I assume I must have went before I became confirmed. So that's where I came up with like 20-some years. And that was amazing, right? To go back to confession. And I must share this funny story I think you will appreciate, Father, and you'll appreciate this. So I go to confession and you're on this retreat, right? You're in this retreat center and I had a roommate, you know, they pair you up with people.
Michelle:
Another woman, obviously, shared a room. And so I go back to the room after I go back to confession. Right? And I burst in the room and I'm like looking, and she's like, "What are you — what's wrong?" I'm like, "I gotta find my Bible and my rosary." I'm like, my rosary is hanging from my rear view mirror in my car. I gotta go and get that. And I'm like, I gotta find my Bible. She's like, why? I'm like, I get to do penance. She's like, okay. I'm like, "Oh no, you don't understand. I haven't been back to confession in like 27 years." And she's like, "Oh my gosh." She's like, "I didn't realize, give me a hug!"
Michelle:
And it was just, I was so excited to do penance. I'm like, wow. And now I just, I love confession. Right? I mean,
Emily:
Do you remember what your, what that first penance was like? Did you have to read a certain Bible verse?
Michelle:
I can't remember the Bible verse. I'm sure it was a Psalm. I don't remember which one, but I do remember what he had told me to do on the rosary. Yeah. So to pray for certain people and it was, like, yeah. I've never forgotten it. And I wish I could re — I know his, I mean, I don't know his name. I mean, there were so many priests there, you know. But I remember he was a baby priest but he did a great job. He did a great job, but I remember, you know what I remember? I remember him asking me after I made my confession and told him, like, it's been a really long time and I'm not even sure how to do this.
Michelle:
And after I, you know, spilled my guts, I suppose he — I remember the first thing he said, "Michelle, do you know, do you know that God loves you?" And right away, I remember like, like, yes, but it was like such a robotic action. You know? I, I said yes, but that's only because I thought that's what he wanted to hear. You know, that's what I'm supposed to say. Like, of course you're supposed to say yes. And then it wasn't until later I was like, wait a minute. Why did I just say that so quickly? He was trying to ask, do you really believe that God loves you? You know? So it was something that I reflected on much later, but I was like, Oh my gosh, why did I? I said, yes, but I didn't really mean it. You know, I had to think about it like, wait a minute.
Michelle:
Do I really believe that the Lord loves me? So I've never forgotten that. It's funny how you never really forget moments like that. And that's the retreat that — at that time I kept hearing "consecrated life, consecrated celibacy, consecrated virginity," having no idea what that meant. I felt like I was a brand new Catholic. I'm like, I've been Catholic all my life and all you people are talking so like, you know, the Lord and you have this personal relationship. Right? And you've had this personal encounter. And so, kept reading about it, hearing about it. And I came back from that retreat — so it's a Sunday through Friday, Friday night or Friday afternoon driving back on the Pennsylvania turnpike. 'Cause it's in Pennsylvania, I'm driving back to Cleveland and I was just in tears, but they were like beautiful tears, you know?
Michelle:
And just my, I knew my life from that point forward would never be the same. And it wasn't. It was just so much, it was like in color now, it was like before it was a black and white. Now it's in color. I have friends that I never even knew. You know, the Lord just opened up so many pathways. Kept taking courses at — I went back to the Institute, took eight more courses. I graduated last January.
Emily:
Congratulations.
Michelle:
Thank you. So I'm finally done, but, well you're never really done because you never stop learning, but —
Emily:
Growth mindset.
Michelle:
Yes. On one of those retreats I learned the name Fr. John Riccardo, who someone told me, hey he's very, he's really good priest that teaches Theology of the Body. And so that was-
Emily:
He's been a guest on Open Door Policy.
Michelle:
Has he? Oh, lovely. Everyone knows Fr. John, right? And yeah, so that's kind of, that was also the entry, the seed that was planted to then discover the Archdiocese of Detroit and Our Lady of Good Counsel in Plymouth, which is obviously where I go now. And so it was all the way back there, the summer of 2015, that God was like, I'm going to give you your vocation. I'm gonna tell you exactly where to move to. You know, it was just so many signs. I had met so many people that lived here and they were saying, you know, I go to this parish called Our Lady of Good Counsel. I'm like, why are you the sixth person I've met from — I got to come visit. Visited, rest is history. But the — I came back from that retreat a changed person. And my family will tell you, they remember, you know, like, yeah, you were just, I was just different.
Michelle:
You're a different person because you've encountered the Lord and you want to share him with others. Right? And that's, that's what made it kind of beautiful, but also frustrating because who do I talk to? Who can I tell? So I found my priest at my parish and I cornered him. And I told this story at my consecration briefly after the Mass, but, you know, I found him and I was like, "Fr. Adam, I just went on this retreat. And I learned about something called being celibate for the kingdom. You know what that is?" I mean, like I'm asking a priest, he understands what it means to be celibate. Like I was just, I was so excited. And so we I'm like, I — more importantly, I told him, I think the Lord is doing something in my heart and I need to talk to somebody about it. So help me figure out what it is the Lord's calling me to. So that I'll stop there.
Fr. Patrick:
Oh, this is so good. When you were, when you were on that retreat you know, at the Institute, the Theology for the Body — Theology of the Body Institute. And side note, I remember in my second year in the seminary, right after starting to study Theology of the Body and my mind was absolutely blown. Like, oh my gosh, every person needs to know the truth of sexuality, according to God's magnificent design for it. And I love that you teach it and stuff. I think I knew that about you right away, like, that you had a passion for Theology of the Body and you like to teach and present on it. The more, the better, Lord, the more, the better. The confession experience was powerful. Was there another moment in that week as well that you'd say yeah, that was pretty powerful as wel? Or was it the confession that was like that? I just want to pinpoint that moment. Like the confession was powerful, a game changer for you. Another moment on that particular?
Michelle:
More so, gosh, when he — when Christopher, the instructor was just, I mean, it's hard to pinpoint one. There were just so many "aha" moments. And the course goes by so fast that it's like, you all want to sit there and just like, take this in, but you got to move on or else this would be a month long course. Right? So it is kind of unfortunate that he has to just keep going, but to journal — I remember actually there were two moments. The first one was on a break. I was checking out the Theology of the Body, or it may have been Christopher West's own Facebook page and I'm scrolling through, and he had shared the story of a woman in Indiana who was a Consecrated Virgin. And she was the first one in her diocese and I'm clicking.
Michelle:
And I'm like, I'm here at the Theology of the Body Institute. And I'm watching this news story — because there was a news story about her, a secular news story about her in Gary, Indiana or Fort Wayne. I'm not sure. Jessica is—.
Emily:
We had some in Fort Wayne, like Jessica, I think it's Hayes, maybe? That sounds familiar.
Michelle:
So I was watching it and I'm like, this woman was Consecrated Virgin, like, huh. Like it was just one of those moments that I went back and I was like, that's when I first — planting seeds. But I would say Fr. Patrick, more to your question. Certain things I remember 'cause I was a personal trainer at the time, the whole thing was very much like a — I wouldn't say the scales were falling off my eyes. It was just rediscovering our bodies in a whole new way.
Michelle:
Like, Oh, I don't, I don't have a body. I am a body. I remember like writing that in big letters. I was like, Whoa, let me write that down. And I'm like, okay, I don't have a body. I am a body. And what does that really mean? Right? We get to know each other through our bodies. There were just — there were so many things that I just, I couldn't, I just kept writing down, and you're just like listening and reading. And your mind is just being blown. I, I would say there were just profoundly sad moments as well. And I will share this one. So the time I'm taking this course, it's June of 2015. And so the Supreme Court's about to rule on same-sex marriage. And it's like, you could feel in the room, like our country's like, something's going to change.
Michelle:
And I just can't describe that feeling because you have people in there, like we are learning the truth, like the beautiful truth of our bodies, but our secular world on the outside these walls, doesn't get it. And look, they're about to like maybe do something, which at the time I think all of us just thought, "No, it's going to be fine." But also coming to an understanding of just how broken we all are, all of us. Right? And I think there was just this profoundly sad moment where it was sad yet beautiful. I don't exactly remember what was being taught. I just remember having my head down and crying and feeling like there was like a weight on my shoulders and it felt like it was like I was carrying a cross, like I was carrying like a wooden beam right here.
Michelle:
It was heavy. And I feel like, looking back — at the moment, I had no idea what was going on. I just know I couldn't stop crying. And I'm like, what is this feeling? And I think it was just me realizing like, you know, we are just so lost and I want to share this beautiful message, but I don't know how. And I also think the Lord was trying to tell me, like, look, it's not your job to save the world. Right? But I think he was trying to prepare me for not the most receptive. How am I trying to say — I think he was preparing me to have a struggle, conveying this message. Because some people aren't ready to hear it. That's, I'll just share that. So I just remember feeling really sad and depressed.
Michelle:
Like, Lord, are you set? Like, what are you trying to share with me? What are you trying to tell me that I must do? What is my mission here? Because I felt like at the time, and I continue to feel that the Lord does equip me and does want me to share the message of Theology of the Body. But I think I was just coming to the realization at that moment. Like, this is not going to be easy. I'm going to have to carry a cross, but the world needs to hear it.
Fr. Patrick:
Right. Huh? Hey, take us — oh go ahead Emily.
Emily:
Oh, I don't know, you can, you can go if you want to.
Fr. Patrick:
Take us into the summer you know, after 2015, when, after you came back and you started to hear consecrated virgin, that's starting to bounce around and you've successfully cornered Fr. Adam, and be like, "Do you know about..." That's a great story. What happened then in your life to lead you, to you know, to give your life to Jesus as a consecrated virgin living in the world?
Michelle:
Well, I just kept hearing and thinking, I just want to do the Lord's will, what is his mission for me? Right? What is my vocation? And I felt affirmed in that, oh, there's something called consecrated virginity. So when I read a book — so this is how great the Lord is. He put people on my path to help me, right? Not just my priest, spiritual director, Fr. Adam, because, and he would say like, he wasn't too knowledgeable about it either because a lot of priests don't know about consecrated virginity. So he he's like, I'm going to point you to this person. So he pointed me in the direction of our vocations, the vocations director in Cleveland —I say "our" as if I still live there but it's hard, you know? Like Emily with South Bend, it's like, oh, Cleveland is always going to be my hometown homes, two homes.
Michelle:
So the vocations, he pointed me in the direction of the vocation director, Fr. Mike McCandless, who pointed me, who met with me. And at the time, she has since left us she's she was called home not too long ago, Sr. Rochelle. And she was like the delegate for religious life there in Cleveland, and we met and they said, you know, "Consecrated virginity is somewhat unique. We don't have too many here in Cleveland that we can have you talk to. How about you talk to Dawn Houseman? She's in Lansing, Michigan." So I, again, Michigan, here comes Michigan again, like, oh, so many Catholic people in Michigan. Okay. So her and I — got in touch with her. Prior to that though, the Lord just kept putting people in my, in my path.
Michelle:
There was a seminarian doing his internship. He's now a priest, Fr. Jim Cosgrove, he was at my parish. He overheard me talking about Theology of the Body. I don't even think he heard me say "consecrated virginity." and out of the blue, "You should read a book called Virginity by Consola Mesa." Okay. Another person that I had just met going to daily Mass, my friend Evie, "Here's a book. I think you'd like it, it's called And You Are Christ by Fr. Thomas Dubay," which is like the main book that everybody who's discerning consecrated virginity should read. When I read that book, I mean, again, it's almost like when I read Theology of the Body, I'm like, the Lord wants me to read this. He is speaking to me through this book. Oh my gosh, he wants me. This is what I'm called to do. It was the same feeling I got when I read — I'm cheating, I'm looking at it — 1 Corinthians 7. It was my second reading at my consecration. 1 Corinthians 7:32, you know, "An unmarried woman or virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord." I read that scripture passage. And I know, and I wish I would have written it down, like when this happened, but I know when I read that, that the Lord was calling me to remain single for him.
Emily:
So Michelle, quick question for you. 'Cause you know, we're talking about this a lot and you mentioned, you know, being cradle Catholic and having not known what, like, really about consecrated virginity or Theology of the Body and you know, even this podcast for joyful missionary disciples, we're all, you know, we're all pretty engaged with our faith if you're listening to Open Door Policy, probably, but could you maybe help clarify for our listeners, you know — and you speak to even in your own discernment process, 'cause I think a lot of women understand, you know, discerning a call to religious life versus married life — but what does it also look like? Maybe could you explain the different, what is being a consecrated virgin, and maybe also speaking to how you knew in your discernment process that you were being called to that versus, for example, religious life or married life.
Michelle:
Good questions. Yes. So I knew in my heart that this is where I was called after having talked to my spiritual director about it over the period of many, many, well altogether, it was like five or six years, right? But a couple of years, a couple of — a few months, at least of talking about it with him and doing more research on it. But even before, I would say before, or when I even even said like, Father, I think I am called to this, even, I think he said — just like a good spiritual director does — "Okay. You know, like let's, let's examine other options too, you know? And just let's, let's pray about this." Because my, one of the first things I told him was why can't I just be single for the Lord? And he's like, you can. And I said, but you know, I thought people say being single isn't a vocation.
Michelle:
And so we got into that kind of conversation and the official vocation to be single. And so not — I don't want to get too far into the weeds with that — I said, I just know that I'm supposed to be single for Jesus. I don't know what that looks like, though. And that's when I started researching more of what is — let me just read about what consecrated virginity is and let me see if that strikes my heart. I had a lot of peace in my heart when I would read about it, when I would listen to other consecrated virgins, when I talked to other consecrated virgins, when I read interviews that they had, because all of a sudden — again, Google coming through in the clutch — you know, I mean, I was finding more and more articles about it. Jessica Hayes, you know, I, I watched her story.
Michelle:
And so in doing the research on it, I felt peace. I didn't feel like anxiousness. If anything, I felt excitement. On the other hand, that is the next question though, like, "Well, how do you know you're not going to meet somebody and be married, you know?" And I said, well, I did date and I never felt peace in my heart. So my only real serious relationship I remember thinking about like, what would it be like if I was married to this person? And I remember feeling sick to my stomach, and I don't think you're supposed to feel sick to your stomach when you picture yourself being married to somebody, right? Like this is not like, now you could say it was the wrong person and that's fine. How do I know it wasn't the vocation for me? Because I had, it's not even like I — I just didn't feel that peace.
Michelle:
When I read about this, I got so excited. When I envisioned, when I lived — and my spiritual director told me, "Live as if you already are consecrated. Let's see if you, if you can live this way and be, and thrive." And my spiritual mentor, Sue Cummins, also suggested the same thing. She was one of the first people I talked to when I moved here she's consecrated virgin herself, I should mention. And she said, "Okay, live as if you are. Live as if you already are consecrated," and that's the best test you can do, right, for yourself to see if this is for you. Religious life, on the other hand while very, you know, noble, a good vocation, very little to no peace at all. In fact, I would get anxious just at the thought of it, not so much the nauseous feeling that I had with marriage, but [laughs]
Fr. Patrick:
This is good discernment. [laughs]
Michelle:
It is, though, right? This is discernment, right? And so I just know for me and my disposition and how I, you know, I just know who I am, right? I know myself better than anybody else. And I know that to be in a community with others, it just didn't appeal to me. I've always been, and my siblings would say the same thing, my dad would probably say the same thing, and my mom, if she were alive would say the same thing, like, "Michelle doesn't mind being alone." Like, it doesn't mean I'm lonely. I just don't mind it. I get — I like my solitude. However, I do like to be social. So I'm an extrovert. So that's how I know the Lord wants me in the world. So it's consecrated virgin living in the world. So we keep our jobs.
Michelle:
We, you know, we see our — you know, I mean, we live alone.
Emily:
You still lift weights.
Michelle:
I still lift weights. I can go to the gym! And I will say like, again, I tell this to people. I said, religious life, beautiful. I know a lot of religious sisters. You know, if I will say, I don't really picture myself — I like clothes, I'm not super trendy, but you know, the habits, just not quite — the closest I came to being religious was dressing up as a nun in sixth grade for Halloween. That is the closest, I think I've come to that. But so consecrated virginity, we dedicate our virginity to the Lord. We are single for him. We do not profess vows of obedience or poverty, because obviously we keep our jobs. Right? And it's basically, it's like a hidden vocation. The ring is the only outward sign that anyone would know that I'm consecrated. And so unless they know who I am, they would not know. So I like the, the hiddenness of it, the kind of like as my friend, Karen Ervin says, it's I'm like an undercover nun. We're like undercover nuns, you know? And she was describing that to one of her nieces or nephews to help them understand, like, that's the difference.
Fr. Patrick:
I've got two questions for you, Michelle. I remember it was October 24th is the anniversary of your consecration, praise you, Jesus. Two questions. One: was there a moment prior to your consecration that, you know, that like absolutely sealed it for you? That, you know, you're like — if anybody who wants to look on the web, just put in Michelle Piccolo and you can see pictures from her consecration day and it's clearly the image of a wedding, you know, a beautiful white dress. And it's an amazing, amazing image. So the two questions first, was there a moment that sealed it for you, you know, a particular moment? And then the second question is living as a bride of Christ, your outward sign, that ring, have you had anybody ask you, "Oh, you're married?" And had that opportunity to tell them about your bridegroom? So first question beforehand, anything that's sealed it in a particular seal it moment — this is the Frenchman in me, I'm always looking for the, the amazing moment of like, ah, so that's when Jesus gave me a smooch, just like, yeah, Michelle. So any particular moment that sealed it for you? And then the second one is that ring, has it given you a chance to tell people about your bridegroom? Take it away, sis.
Michelle:
Okay. yes, there was a moment of, first of all, I was completely calm like I have never been before in my entire life. And the entire time of the consecration, of the Mass, I was not nervous at all. So I think that was the affirmation. But after, so yes, there was a moment after the consecration though that sealed it. And I will say it happened about 24 hours after it was Sunday night and I started crying myself to sleep. Out of nowhere here come the tears. So and it lasted about three days. I didn't cry nonstop, but it was this heavy duty desolation. And my first thought was, Okay, it definitely worked because the devil is pissed and he's attacking me. So it must've worked or else I would not be feeling, he would not bother with me.
Michelle:
He is mad that I made this decision to marry Jesus. So the spiritual warfare happened immediately, but then after three days — and a priest friend of mine said, "Oh, he took you into the tomb. You went from the cross of the wedding, into the tomb." And then he took me out of it after three days, I didn't realize it was three days until I told him, I said it was three days. And the peace that I felt afterwards, that was the moment it sealed it for me, that's when I finally felt like there you are. Because before that, I felt like the bride groom and the bride in the Song of Songs, "Have you seen my bridegroom? I cannot find him." It didn't feel like a honeymoon. It didn't feel like where is this? Where's the warm and fuzzies? He needed to take me through that.
Michelle:
Right. so it was beautiful. I mean, at the time it wasn't, but I knew I would get out of it. Thank God I had enough spiritual direction and maturity, I guess, in the spiritual life to understand, discernment of spirits, to know that I wasn't going to be in desolation forever. It was going to wrap up. He was going to come back and he, the consolation was like, awesome.
Fr. Patrick:
Well, I tell you what, you, oh — you got something?
Michelle:
Oh, and just to answer your second question, unfortunately, because well, fortunately, I mean, I work at the place where I was consecrated, so everybody knows. And so I haven't had that opportunity. And I guess I just feel like, because we're in the state of the things that we're in.
Emily:
When the bars open again, people will ask you and you can tell them the story.
Michelle:
Yes, and I cannot wait to have that moment. I did have a moment prior to my consecration going out as a bachelorette —.
Emily:
Consecrated virgins get bachelorette parties? That's awesome!
Michelle:
I mean, it was just, I mean, let's — I don't want to scandalize anybody. It was just going out to a restaurant, but I did, my friends did buy me a little tiara thing that said "bride." And a gentleman leaving the restaurant or the bar area we were at, "Who's getting married." "I am." "Why? Why are you getting married?" You could tell he had a few. I said, "Oh," and the girls, you know, everyone knows right, who I'm marrying, right? And I said, "Oh, because I love him. I have found the one whom I love," and you'll find — it'll never — what did he say? Oh, he said something so sad and tragic. Oh, it was just so it was like, Oh dude, you don't get it. Like he had such a negative attitude and it's like, Oh, I want to minister to you. I want to evangelize to you, come back. You have no idea what you're talking about. So it's interesting. I cannot wait for the moment. I actually get to talk to somebody and share with them that I'm single, or I'm married to Jesus. And just to see their reaction.
Fr. Patrick:
Through this podcast, you have definitely talked to a lot of people. And I know there's been some other beautiful interviews, a video I saw recently that archdiocese made with you about highlighting the oldest vocation in the Church, because Mary was the first consecrated virgin living in the world, right? And just got to throw this out there, that experience after you were consecrated, after you, you know, effectively gave your marital vow to Jesus, it, you know, if there was an attack there, he, you know, nothing happens on his watch without him knowing it. And that if you would allow that, and you think about those three days, and you think about Jesus and the cross that's called sometimes theologically, the marriage bed of Christ. That is where the bridegroom Jesus gave everything for his bride, the Church. And if he permitted a three-day thing for you, I think this is so rich and beautiful prayer, just beautiful prayer material.
Fr. Patrick:
Like he went into the tomb for three days for his bride. And when he resurrected, you know, he brought new life. You know, when we talk about baptism that we may share in the newness of life, just, you know, just as Romans six, seven and eight, "Just as Christ is risen from the dead, we too might live in the newness of life, that he would bring you into that place." And then on the third day, you know, the grace of resurrection that he's brought his bride, the Church, he brought to you in a special way after that consecration that's tremendously rich. And Michelle, we have no doubt. You are a sign of heaven. What is heaven? It ends with the wedding feast of the lamb, Revelation 19, Jesus, the bridegroom receiving his Church. And we just pray right now, Jesus, amplify the glory of your presence radiating off of the countenance of a joyful bride named Michelle Piccolo.
Fr. Patrick:
We ask, Lord, that you let her radiate so bright that people are going to have to ask her, "What do you use for your skin tone?" She can say, I'm married to Jesus. Let me tell you what, and he loves you too. He, I mean, the Church all gets this grace in a certain way, but you in a very special way as a consecrated virgin living in the world, but we just pray Jesus, that you give Michelle incredible amounts of opportunities to witness to the marriage of heaven that she's already participating in. Now, dear listeners, I hope you don't mind going a little bit longer once in a while when it's awesome. Back to you, Emily.
Emily:
Michelle, thank you so much for sharing this story. This has been just so incredible to hear about. I mean, it's the oldest vocation, but also rare, right? We even here in the Archdiocese of Detroit, we have so many Catholics and only four consecrated virgins. So thank you for your testimony here for people who, you know, have either had a similar experience being raised in the faith as you, people who are being drawn to the faith right now through Theology of the Body, which is such a, you know, beautiful and unique way to encounter Jesus through that. And I can't wait to just hear more one day about just how your weightlifting and kind of bodybuilding experience, like kind of set the stage for that. But thank you for sharing that. And then to also share about, you know, more recently your journey to becoming a consecrated virgin here in the Archdiocese of Detroit and sharing that. And now you're living out that vocation as a joyful missionary disciple, which is just so beautiful. So thank you for sharing that with us and this unique story where we're so grateful to you.
Michelle:
Thank you so much for having me.
Fr. Patrick:
And one last question. Okay. Last one last call. About that bar story — no. So now Michelle, what has been like after that third day, in these months now you know, seven, six, seven, eight months of, of living a consecrated virgin in the world, what has been like one of the most surprising graces in your life live this way? One of the surprising and or sweetest graces?
Michelle:
I think it's — because it still happens because of the publicity from Detroit Catholic and this — that the people that come up to me who I don't even know, who've watched the consecration online or read the article or whatever and how they are impacted by it. I had one parishioner tell me out of nowhere after Mass, literally right after daily Mass comes over to me, kneels down next to me, so I didn't even have a chance to even say hello, "This place is holier with you in it." And just walked away. I'm like, Oh my goodness. I mean, just they, that I, gosh, I'm babbling even more than normal. It's just so beautiful. I'm so grateful to have been consecrated because, you know, it's a lot, you know? You're a sign of having like, whoa, it's a lot —not a lot to live up to, but it's, I pray that the joy is coming through my face and through my actions.
Emily:
Through your voice on this podcast.
Michelle:
Through my voice, yes. You know, like that people — that's, all I want to do is just share Jesus. And he, first of all, he just, he provides, he gives me the opportunities that has just been awesome and more and more people, especially my family are asking me to pray for them more than before.
Speaker 3:
And so they — it's just so beautiful. It's just so beautiful. I hope I answered that. Well, I, I'm trying to just formulate the words. It's just, it's been so — it has been surprising, the amount of people that now kind of are, you know, approaching me that maybe wouldn't before, and now, "Will you pray for this person?" I see that, you know, they can see from my witness that — and then they're intrigued by it. So they want to learn either more about, you know, consecrated virginity, or they're just asking me, please pray for me because you have a direct line to God, right? As someone said. We all do.
Fr. Patrick:
In there in the deepest part of people's hearts, I think that they're, like, you are an image of a really, you know, devotion to the Lord. And that's like, we long for that. I think, you know, yeah all disciples long to keep growing. And you just described, your witness to the Lord. Like people are just reaching out to you, asking for prayer or saying you make this place holy or that. So the grace of the Lord, his bond with you is impacting the world around you in palpable ways. It's really beautiful. And last thing out of me, friends, I just got to tell you it's not creepy at all. I keep a picture of this beautiful picture — we're filming this on Zoom and they can see it — I have a beautiful picture of Michelle on her consecration day and she just looks like the bride of Christ. And I saw this picture and it reminded me. I was like, that is an amazing image of the Church. It's an amazing image of the Church, the bride of Christ. And it made, when I saw it, it made me think as a Catholic priest like, Patrick, be Holy. Be holy because Jesus wants — he's preparing for himself a pure and a spotless bride. You know, it talks about in the letter to the Ephesians, a pure and spotless bride. And so Michelle, thank you for your witness to Christ and inspires us.
Speaker 1:
And anyone who wants to see the pictures from Michelle's consecration or learn more about it, can find her on Detroit Catholic coverage of it. We did coverage of the consecration in October, and then this documentary that we shared on the feast of St. Agnes in January. So definitely look there and thank you again, Michelle, for sharing about this beautiful vocation. I'm sure you will, after this podcast comes out, get more questions from people about this beautiful vocation and your journey and things like that. But we are grateful for you sharing, taking the time to share it with us tonight.
Michelle:
Thank you. I'm always happy to share my spouse with others.
Fr. Patrick:
Amen, and any dear daughters of God out there who are considering this consecrated virginity living in the world. Our Lady of Good Counsel is where Michelle works. Just give her a call and I'm sure she'll have a cup of coffee.
Emily:
Thank you for listening to another episode of Open Door Policy. Find us online unleashthegospel.org/podcasts, on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google, or wherever you get your podcasts.