Fr. Steve Pullis: Welcome to Open Door Policy, the podcast from the Archdiocese of Detroit where each and every episode we speak with a different joyful missionary disciple who is seeking to unleash the gospel in his or her own life. Today we sit down with Paul Duda, the creative director for the Archdiocese of Detroit, and talk about art and how God has worked in his life and the life of his family. And as always, we have our wonderful main host, Danielle Center. Danielle, how are you? Danielle Center: I'm good. How are you Fr. Steve? Fr. Steve Pullis: I'm good. We're doing this in a weird quarantine, different location addition. It's not the same as being in the same room. Danielle Center: You know what, I thought about this. I think that it's possible that our listeners think that we hang out way more than we do, because you and I actually don't really see each other outside of when we're recording. And even now I'm like, wow, I haven't seen you in weeks. Fr. Steve Pullis: I know I keep calling you to say, "Danielle, do you want to hang out? Danielle, do you want to get together?" And you're always like, "I don't have time for that." So, Paul, how are you doing? Paul Duda: I'm doing all right Fr. Steve, thanks. Fr. Steve Pullis: Well, I think we're going to jump right into rapid fire questions, right? Danielle Center: Well, I have a question for you, Fr. Steve, do you have any recent graces? Fr. Steve Pullis: Oh, yeah, I do. I do have a recent grace. I had the opportunity, not too long ago, back around Easter, to go around and bless some Easter baskets for my family. So I kept a safe social distance from them, but I was able to go to all their homes and sprinkle their Easter baskets with Holy Water and to kind of talk from a distance. And it was beautiful to see them and to talk with them in the midst of quarantine and social distance, that I had not been able to do in a while. So I was just thanking God for that grace in my life. What's a grace in your life, Danielle? Danielle Center: Man, you jogged my memory back to Holy week then. So one thing that was really fun for me about Holy Week is, you remember when I was working at Ste. Anne, I put together this seven churches pilgrimage. I brought it to Detroit, which was super fun. So I had the Bible passages and songs, of course you can't do it with a lot of people anymore, so I just went around to seven churches in my neighborhood, only one of them was Catholic and I just prayed in front of each of them, the reflections of that night. So Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus in front of Caiaphas and Annas, and all those things. So that was really cool. It was snowing, but it was really beautiful besides that. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. This has been a snowy April. Danielle Center: Wait, Paul, is this your first April with us? Paul Duda: No, this is my second April in Detroit. Fr. Steve Pullis: In the world? Paul Duda: But it is my first one that has been... Yeah, in the world. No, in Detroit. Danielle Center: A very young Catholic. Paul Duda: But it is the first one since I was a kid where it snowed in April. So yeah, it's been awhile. Danielle Center: Hey, are you ready for rapid fire questions, Paul? Paul Duda: As ready as I'll ever be. Danielle Center: Question one. What was your first job? Paul Duda: My first job was working for my dad's general contracting company. That was my first real job. I worked on a construction site. Danielle Center: And what was the most beautiful church you have ever visited? Paul Duda: Oh my gosh. The most beautiful church I've ever visited, I'm kind of partial to, I know this is probably not the most beautiful church in the world, but I guess one of my favorites is St. John Cantius in Chicago. I also really liked St. Basil in LA, which I'm sure will be controversial tourist site if anyone's ever been there. Danielle Center: And then what is the most recent song that was stuck in your head? Paul Duda: I think the most about love, which is by Marina. It's that, or the theme song from Tumble Leaf, which is a kid show, toddler show. Danielle Center: Okay. And then, speaking of shows and fictional worlds, in which fictional world would you like to live? Paul Duda: Oh man, is there like a time limit? I don't know how quick I can answer these questions. Danielle Center: No, no, don't worry. Fr. Steve Pullis: Don't worry, but it is called rapid fire. Paul Duda: I'd say a Harry Potter, The Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Danielle Center: And speaking of, no one of the characters likes to eat the red head, what is your favorite breakfast food? Paul Duda: Oh, my favorite breakfast food is biscuits and gravy. I'm like a biscuits and gravy connoisseur. Danielle Center: Oh man. Fr. Steve Pullis: Alright, Paul, my turn to ask you some questions. What Bible verse has really struck with you these days? Paul Duda: Oh my gosh, what Bible verse has really stuck with me these days? Well, we just finished Holy Week, so I feel like that's kind of a loaded question. I'm going to say, it is finished. I've just been contemplating on that very much. The idea, I don't know how much you want to dive out right now, but that's my answer, it is finished. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. Well, let's go back to that in a minute, but let me ask you a couple of more. Have you ever met anyone more famous than you? Paul Duda: Oh yeah. I've met a lot of famous people, people more famous than me. Fr. Steve Pullis: Give me a famous person you've met. Paul Duda: Gerard Butler. Fr. Steve Pullis: Who? No, I'm kidding. Speaker 4: Fr. Steve, Gerard Butler is a Scottish actor and film producer. Fr. Steve Pullis: Who's your hero Paul? Paul Duda: St. Josemaria. Fr. Steve Pullis: What's your favorite book? Paul Duda: Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. Fr. Steve Pullis: We're seeing a theme here. And then lastly, what was one location where you had a powerful encounter with God? Paul Duda: That's a really tough question. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, Danielle wrote these. Danielle Center: Oh my gosh, they're great. Paul Duda: And I have trouble answering this question without it sounding weird, but my current wife, who was then my fiancee, her Honda Civic. Danielle Center: Nice. I was honestly ready for you to say Harry Potter World, so it's cool. Paul Duda: I've been to Harry Potter World, I did not have a particularly profound experience with God there. Fr. Steve Pullis: Wait, what is Harry Potter World? Paul Duda: It's like a universal studios. When I lived in Los Angeles, I was like 15 minutes away from it. So we went a couple of times. Danielle Center: So it's like going to Disney. Fr. Steve Pullis: For Harry Potter. Paul Duda: Yeah, except way cheaper. It's way cheaper. Fr. Steve Pullis: So Paul, tell me about the Honda Civic encounter with God synopsis, or some way that was powerful. Paul Duda: One of the questions that was asked to me I think was like, how have I seen God work in my life before we started this? And a lot of that was through my wife. And so when we got engaged we had some pretty difficult conversations kind of in our engagement, and one of those conversations I just really felt God's presence kind of there and I felt his love in a way that I'd never experienced before. And it was, I think, while we were sitting outside her apartment in her Honda Civic when we were living in Los Angeles. So that's my answer. Danielle Center: Tell me a little bit about St. Basil and why this is controversial. I'm going to pretend like I'm asking you for the listener's sake, but also I don't know. Paul Duda: So St. Basil in Los Angeles is what, I'd kind of classify it as almost like a communist inspired church. But it's very utilitarian and it's designed so it's very stark, but it's also kind of a Gothic. Everything's very tall, everything brings your eye upwards, but it's so stark, the sides of it are made of concrete. And they have these huge, beautiful black stone sculptures, they're massive and they're almost terrifying in their scale. But they're just so striking, and the whole church just kind of, I guess it kind of reminds me of being stripped bare in front of God. And there's a beautiful crucifix with this kind of abstract wooden sculpture that surrounds it. I'd highly recommend you look up photos of it. Paul Duda: And the reason I guess it'd be controversial it's because, I think, a lot of people would look at it as a modern church design where they've ruined the design of churches. I actually think it's kind of a beautiful implementation of classic church architecture with more kind of modern, stripped down aesthetics. So it makes me think of God at least. Danielle Center: That's really cool. I would love to talk more about that later. Can you tell me a little bit about your experience with St. Josemaria. Paul Duda: St. Josemaria introduced me to the idea of constant conversation with God. And so when I was just finishing high school, I was introduced to one of his books, which is The Way, if you're familiar with it, it's just kind of a series of basically instructions and inspiration that Josemaria wrote at different points to different people and for different people. And I worked my way through that, and what I realized in reading that and learning more kind of about St. Josemaria's charisms, I suppose you'd call them, is the idea of just kind of constantly bringing your life to God, of him walking with you as a friend throughout your whole day and your whole life, as opposed to kind of a lot of what as a cradle Catholic brought up with was like, you go to church to pray, you say the Rosary, you go to mass, there are specific times and otherwise you're kind of just on your own. And I won't say that anyone straight up told me that, that's just kind of how I understood it. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus as far as my catechism goes. Fr. Steve Pullis: No, but there is kind of a sense that I think one of the beautiful things that St. Josemaria Escriva does is talk about the ordinary being infused with God's presence, that God can do great things in ordinary ways. And other saints have talked about that, but it really taken an intentionality on our part to see that. So that's awesome. Danielle Center: Thank you so much for all that, Paul. We really appreciate it and learning more about you. I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to do that Paul Duda: Thanks, it's been a pleasure. Are we done? I'm just kidding. Danielle Center: So Paul, we actually go to church together. So I know you, and I've met your wife, and I've also met your beautiful child, but I don't know a whole lot about your story. Would you be so kind as to share some of that with us? Paul Duda: Sure. I guess I'll start kind of, my wife and I met while we were in school in San Diego. We went to John Paul the Great Catholic University. And I transferred there from a military school. I went there for my first two years of school and then transferred to John Paul the Great to study film. And I was very much a fish out of water at a very small Catholic college community. At the time it was maybe like 90 students. And my wife was also kind of a fish out of water, so we became friends. And to be perfectly honest, I became friends with her partially just because I thought she was way too beautiful for me to ever date. And I know that sounds kind of sounds self-deprecating, but that was the truth. Back then, and it's still the truth, but I have more self esteem now. Danielle Center: You guys are both beautiful people. Paul Duda: Oh, thank you. So anyway, so we went to school together, we were friends and then we ended up dating and then I broke up with her. For a lot of different reasons I was just kind of conflicted, I wasn't sure what I was supposed to do with my life, and I broke up with her. And then a year later, thanks to the guidance of a really good priest who was the spiritual director to us both, we ended up getting back together. And four years later we got engaged. And when we got engaged everything became very real very quickly, we realized that we're binding ourselves to each other and committing to kind of bringing each other closer to Christ and to God, and to having a family together. And that just brought so much kind of to the surface about our own personal history and our lives. Paul Duda: And that was really painful. I had never gone through any kind of experience like that of having to be totally exposed and open to somebody else. And there still is a lot of pain from my upbringing and stuff that kind of had to be laid bare. And through that experience I kind of realized, and I guess Jamie, my wife, her understanding and her love for me, I realized that there's love in this world and that God's love for me is kind of beyond anything I can fathom. At the time I thought for sure that I was not worthy of that kind of care and love. And Jamie kind of showed me that not only was I worthy of it from her, but that God loved me even more. So that was pretty painful and also pretty incredible. And I'll say that that's a huge factor kind of in my faith today. Paul Duda: And so I've been a cradle Catholic my whole life and I went to a Catholic school and I got the full fledged theology and everything in high school and stuff, but it wasn't really until then that I realized, you can know maybe so much about your faith and God on an intellectual level, but that only gets you so far. For me, a conversion really means a turning of my heart, not just my mind to God. So fast forward a few years and we had a child together. Well, we got married first. Fr. Steve Pullis: Paul, when did you graduate from JP II? Paul Duda: I finished school in 2012 and Jamie finished nine months... I finished in December of 2012 and she finished in September of 2013. We both wanted to study film and art, and we both also wanted to do that kind of in a Catholic environment, so that's where we ended up. Fr. Steve Pullis: Awesome. So Danielle's rushing us along. Okay, so you both graduate. Danielle Center: So you graduate, you get married. Paul Duda: We moved to Los Angeles, not together. We moved to Los Angeles, Jamie got a job at the Archdiocese of Los Angeles as a designer. And I was working for a motion graphics design company who moved me up to Los Angeles. We got married while we were living in LA. And then three months after we got married, we were pregnant with Hank. We didn't know it was Hank at the time, but nine months later we welcomed Hank, and our lives have been all the better for it. And then I think a year and a half later after Hank was born, we moved to Detroit. So Jamie left her job at the ADLA. I was doing freelance work as a producer and a designer. Paul Duda: And then we started a business in Los Angeles, and Los Angeles is so expensive and we had good friends who lived here in Detroit from college. So we came out to visit them, kind of scoping out Detroit and just really ended up falling in love with it, specifically the East side which is where we currently live. And where Danielle and we go to mass at St. Augustine St. Monica. And so we moved in May of 2018, and it was only after we moved that I had any exposure really to what was happening with the archdiocese and what was happening in Detroit. Only after we moved did I read anything about Unleash the Gospel. And when I was finally kind of exposed to it through some people at the AOD who were talking to me about a job there, was I like, man, this just feels like divine providence. Paul Duda: Reading about Unleash the Gospel was kind of like I'd never read anything from any bishop or from the church in general, that felt like it really was a call to kind of change and a call to really look at what we're doing and how we're doing it and to do it better. And to really kind of jump forward. So I'm not very literate in church documents, so someone could have written it before that, but that was the first time I'd read something like that and it was really profound to me. Fr. Steve Pullis: You mean you have not read every pastoral letter by bishops in the country? Danielle Center: Every bishop in the world. But you know what, there's something really beautiful to be said about that, because we can't read every single thing. So the Holy Spirit was working in your particular situation too. You coming from California, this thing, building this momentum, building here in Detroit, and then you coming to that, that's something really profound. Paul Duda: Yeah. I mean, it's funny because Jamie and I had... Her experience working for the ADLA was formative, is a good way to put it. Fr. Steve Pullis: ADLA is the- Paul Duda: I'm sorry, that's the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. Fr. Steve Pullis: Okay thanks. Paul Duda: And her experience working there was, it had its good parts, but it was overall pretty difficult for both of us. And so when we moved and when we had started our own business, we had actually both sworn that we would never work for the church again. Danielle Center: And then the Holy Spirit was like, hahaha. Paul Duda: Exactly. And so I guess, I don't even know if listeners know, but I currently work as the creative director at the archdiocese. And that's because of reading Unleash the Gospel, because we happened to move here just as things were really picking up with a lot of change happening at the diocese. And my boss, Edmundo, kind of found out about me, I guess, I wasn't hiding, but I wasn't really putting myself out there for the church either. So he kind of brought me in and told me what was going on and I was like, "All right, I'll give it a shot." And here I am officially an employee of the archdiocese. Danielle Center: It's good to have you here. I'm so glad you're here. Ron: So am I. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, Ron, all right. Danielle Center: Ron, your voice is the [inaudible 00:21:06]. Fr. Steve Pullis: It's a rare time we get to hear Ron on this podcast, so that's always a blessing. Danielle Center: Paul, thank you for sharing some of your story with us. Thank you for being with us tonight and for giving us that story. We really appreciate you being here and sharing with us. Paul Duda: Thanks Danielle. I'm happy to be here. Danielle Center: Okay gentlemen, I know that Fr. Steve knows my friend Julia. Paul, I don't know if you've ever met her, but anyway, little backstory. She's an architect and I love... She was a guest on one of our podcasts too, but I love traveling with her because she sees the world through an artist's eyes and an architect's eyes. And one time we were talking about churches and I think this kind of tied into the St. Basil thing, and I wanted to bring it up. I think we were in Chicago, and we passed, I don't know, maybe a casino or something and it was built in like an old Roman style. And she stopped in the street and she was like, "Look at this building. It's out of place here because..." And this is exactly how she travels. We'll be walking, and then she'll stop and reflect. Danielle Center: She's like, "Look at this building. It's out of place." And Rome has a specific kind of buildings, ancient Rome, because of the culture at the time, the tools at the time, the resources at the time, the kind of architectural math and building that was available at the time. So she was like, when you take something from a specific time and place it somewhere like this in downtown, modern day Chicago, it's out of place. It doesn't fit here anymore because it was made for another time. And she was like, and that's why we need to be careful about how we talk about church things, because things that fit into older like previous era's, don't fit in the era that we're in right now. And then she just like stopped and kept walking. And I was like, oh my gosh. Danielle Center: So that's, I think, an interesting opener. What is your perspective on that as a creative director? Where do you see art right now as you are a part of something that's been around for a while, the church, but you're also at a particular crossroads in history? Paul Duda: Wow, that's a great question and I love the idea kind of behind that of things not fitting. And I think there's... We could go on probably, or I could go on for hours about art and that idea, but I've always been a strong kind of proponent of marrying kind of the tradition of the church with the time we're in now. One of my favorite things, and I even answered it in the question about my faith, it's tradition with a capital T and a little t. But the rich kind of art in our church tradition, the music, all of that, I think there's so much strength in our foundation throughout the hundreds of years the church has developed. Paul Duda: But I also think there's so much space for new ideas and new art to build on that. I don't know that it's entirely fair, and Fr. Steve or Danielle, you might disagree with me, but a lot of people write off modern art techniques and ideas because, oh, it's not harder, or I could have done that. But I think that's really, to me it's a lack of looking farther or looking deeper into what people are expressing in their artwork. And I think there's a lot of space for marrying our tradition in the church with what people are kind of experiencing now in their art. Because that's honestly kind of how I see it. Design and video, especially for the type of marketing stuff that we do, is a form of art, but it's more functional than it is just experiential. It has a purpose and something to communicate or something to promote. Paul Duda: Artwork in its purest form, I think, is more of an expression of the more some kind of expression of a human experience. Whether that experience is an encounter with Christ or whether that expression is an experience with the devil or something. I think there's space for all of that. And something a professor of mine in college actually once told me was, especially as Christian or Catholic artists, there's something we need to remember is that there's no resurrection without the cross. And by that I mean, a lot of artists, a lot of Christian artists, tend to shy away from really kind of looking into sin. We don't want to depict sin necessarily, especially glorify it, but sin is part of our experience. And I think people want to be kind of connected in that experience, that pain and that hurt. Paul Duda: And what I think we're called to do, especially as Catholic and Christian artists, is remind them, yeah, we're connected in that pain and that human experience, but we're also called to the resurrection of Christ. That's where it's leading, that pain. So to come back around to your art question, I definitely agree with it that there's definitely a sense of like, this doesn't fit because it's a design that was made straight from 1965, which we're not doing anymore. It was a different time, a different place, maybe not the brightest time for the church, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no value in it. And I think that looking back on what we've done and looking forward to what we can do and marrying those two, can bring about something really amazing and beautiful. Anyway, that's me having ranted for five minutes to answer your question. Fr. Steve Pullis: So let me give you something else to rant about, Paul. Is beauty objective or subjective? Paul Duda: That's a great question, Fr. Steve. Fr. Steve Pullis: Because the classical tradition, this gets a little philosophical, but hey, let's all get a little ranting. This can be our quarantine rant. Danielle Center: Why not. Fr. Steve Pullis: The classical tradition would point to an objectivity to beauty. That there's a kind of consonance and integrity of beauty that the pieces fit together, that it has a kind of intrinsic value that's recognized by the observer. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. In the 20th century and certainly into John Paul II, there's a kind of a turn philosophically towards personalism which sees the individual person being able to kind of contribute not just to this objective form, but to say the subjectivity that I bring to something is a gift in my life, but also in the life of the church. Fr. Steve Pullis: So the individual nature of humanity is kind of shown forth in the first half of the 20th century, and then expanded at the Second Vatican Council to talk about, especially in Gaudium et spes, this nature of the interplay between man and the world between faith and culture and all these things. So I just wondering as someone who lives in this world, has studied it, what's your take on kind of art as being, hey, this is objectively beautiful, we can go to a place like Notre-Dame Cathedral before the fire and say like, if you don't think this is beautiful, there's probably something wrong here. But it doesn't mean every artwork has that same objective aspect to it. Paul Duda: Yeah. My professor, my philosophy professor in college had this great kind of metaphor he uses, if you taste strawberry ice cream and you say it tastes like, I don't know, pickles, you'd be wrong objectively speaking. If it's strawberry ice cream and it's made properly, it should taste like strawberry. So if you're saying it tastes like pickles, something's wrong. Probably in your taste buds or something, but something's wrong. Fr. Steve Pullis: Or someone spiked the ice cream with pickle juice. Paul Duda: Exactly. Something's wrong. Danielle Center: Or you don't know what pickles taste like. Paul Duda: Yeah, exactly. But if I say, strawberry ice cream, I just don't like strawberry ice cream, that's completely different than saying, this tastes like pickles. And I always love that metaphor because it's such a good example of how I can, I always liked being able to be like, yeah, I think that's beautiful. I don't really care for it, but it's beautiful. It's a really good sense of, can you... And it's so hard. I've been in so many, or seen so many arguments on social media or in person about what is art. But one of my pet peeves is actually people who don't like something, saying something is bad. Because it's like something about the human language. Paul Duda: It's the same way we say we love something that we really just like a lot. We'll be like, oh that movie is bad. And it's like, well, no, actually the movie structurally sound, it's got a good plot, it's well made, it's consistent, it's beautiful, you just don't like it. That's the difference. And you can say what you don't like about it, but if you look at it kind of... And that's the question though, if you're talking about it to any secular artists, they're like, well, who's making the rule book for what's right and what's wrong? We have a, not so much rule book, but we have that guidance kind of in our understanding of nature and natural law. We have that understanding. And that's where I think we're blessed in a lot of ways to have that, I mean, in so many ways to have that because it kind of acts as a guidance, especially in art, what is objectively beautiful. Paul Duda: I think that means that there are things that are objectively ugly too. I don't know, that's something that's maybe even a bigger question is, if something that's objectively ugly, therefore not art. Can something be like, that might be objectively ugly, doesn't have to be beautiful. Fr. Steve Pullis: Could you say it's bad art? Paul Duda: It's a good question, maybe it's meant to be ugly. Fr. Steve Pullis: Just to take a different question here, Danielle, we talk about growing as disciples and this kind of desire to be missionary disciples. That presupposes a kind of a relationship with God, that we're following the Lord. Do you pray with art? I mean, is art part of your prayer life? I'm just wondering how that fits in. What does that look like? What would it mean to say, I pray with art? Danielle Center: This is a really interesting question, and one to think about is, the term art is incredibly broad. It would be like saying, do you love athletics? To an Olympic athlete. Throw like a billion Olympic event. Fr. Steve Pullis: So visual art. Danielle Center: Right. Yeah. So actually I find that I pray a lot through dance because like Saint Augustin says, when you sing you pray twice. I really feel that using my body as a form of worship as well, and this is not liturgical dance, less everyone suddenly freak out, I'm just talking like, going to a party, there's music, there's classy dancing, like a wedding, I am throwing down. Fr. Steve Pullis: So you're praying at weddings while you're on the dance floor? Danielle Center: All the time. Fr. Steve Pullis: Come on. Danielle Center: There are so free there. Wow. Get out of here. Fr. Steve Pullis: No, no, I'm trying to understand it. Paul Duda: That goes back to what I was talking about with St. Josemaria. God can come to anything at any moment. Danielle Center: And I just think about, you're there, I'm with people that I love and I can just close my eyes and be free, listen to the music and be like, God, you brought me here with all these people that I love and my body is awesome and you made it for me, thanks a mill. That is totally praying. But do I pray through art? Sure. I love to make art. One of my favorite quotes is by St. Maximilian Kolbe. Let this blow your mind for four years, love alone creates. So this concept that God is love and God creates, and with God we can also create. So yeah, I definitely say that I love creating through art. Paul Duda: Wait, so I do have one question though, Danielle. Danielle Center: Go for it. Paul Duda: Because I believe you and I trust you, but when you're dancing at a wedding on the dance floor and you're praying, what happens when get low comes on? Fr. Steve Pullis: Did you do air quotes while you said praying, Paul? I heard air quotes. Danielle Center: I felt that. I felt them come through the air waves. Paul Duda: I really didn't do air quotes. Fr. Steve Pullis: Maybe I did the air quotes. Danielle Center: You know what, I'm just going to say, there are other dancers out there who heard me and were giving praise hands and were like, yes girl, you are so right. We can pray through dance. Paul Duda: I wish you guys could see my face. Danielle, I totally believe. I am not making fun of you in any regard. I'm just curious, I get distracted in mass when someone coughs, so I don't know. I do not experience that with dance, but I'd just love to know. Danielle Center: Well, okay, so it's just like any prayer. Can you be distracted out of it? Sure. But can you also redirect it towards prayer? Yeah. So yeah, I love praying throughout. And I think I should say too, I love classic art as well. That wasn't a dig at the beginning of, ah, old art of the church is not cool, because it really, really is. But there's also I think this interesting invitation for us today, what does it mean. And Fr. Steve, you work with Paul Duda, because you're the director of evangelization, unless they changed that title. Am I supposed to say more title in a catechist class? Fr. Steve Pullis: No, no, you're not. Paul Duda: No, no, say the whole thing. It's the director of evangelization and missionary discipleship. That's the whole title. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, you got the whole title in there. I know what you're saying Danielle. Art can mean lots and lots of things. But I was thinking about the visual type of art. How beauty in visual art can open our minds to prayer. Because I find that one of the most beautiful places with stained glass to me is Blessed Sacrament Cathedral. And they have this beautiful Rose window above the choir loft. They have gorgeous depictions. I was the Archbishop secretary for four years, which means I got to skulk around the sanctuary for four years during all the masses. Paul Duda: Was that on your job description? Fr. Steve Pullis: Skulking, yeah. Liturgical skulking. Yeah. Paul Duda: [inaudible 00:37:48] was the best skulker. Fr. Steve Pullis: He does it much better. But there's a way from the Archbishop's chair where he looks out and sees Christ the King, the beautiful North facing window in the transept of the Cathedral. And I just find that to be, during the liturgy, when I'm in there praying by myself, I just find it opens my mind and my heart. And once it helps me give myself to Christ, and it helps me see Jesus acts in power and in mercy in my life and wants to, and I can trust him with that. So I think we're right up against time here. So that may have to be the second to last word, because Paul, we always give our guests the last word. If you have any last kind of prayer or anything you want to share with our listeners before we wrap up. Paul Duda: Yeah. Well, I guess we're all in quarantine right now, and I think for a lot of people there's a lot of pressure to be productive or be creative. Especially as a creative, I think there's a lot of pressure, oh, so much time on my hands, I should create. I guess I just want to kind of encourage people, whatever is happening in your heart right now for anybody, it's happening for a reason and listen to it, take care of yourself, listen to what's happening in your heart, listen to God and take care of yourself because it's so easy to get wrapped up in thinking about, especially in this day and age with social media and all that stuff which I work in, to get wrapped up in what we should be doing versus what other people think we should be doing, versus what God is actually asking us to do. And so I guess I just encourage people to really listen to God and what he's asking you to do. It's funny because I'm saying words out loud that I need to listen to. Fr. Steve Pullis: Well, as a priest, we always talk about your preaching first and foremost to yourself. So that's what I hear you saying. Paul Duda: Yeah. So that's all I'd like to encourage people to do. I mean, I'm kind of just taking it one day at a time now, and I guess I encourage everyone else to do the same. Danielle Center: We appreciate it. Thank you so much, Paul. Paul Duda: Thank you. Fr. Steve Pullis: It was a ton of fun sitting down with Paul in our quarantine remote social distancing Open Door Policy studio today, to hear about his love for biscuits and gravy, his love for Harry Potter and how he thinks art helps us to know God and to follow God in our lives. Danielle Center: If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends, your neighbors, your relatives, your trader Joe cashier. You can also leave us a review on iTunes. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Our handle is @OpenDoorDetroit. Help us unleash the gospel. Open Door Policy was produced by Ron Pangborn and the creative team of the Archdiocese of Detroit. Paul Duda: I find it kind of disturbing to think about. Fr. Steve Pullis: I'm Fr. Steve Pullis with Danielle Center. Danielle Center: And this has been another episode of Open Door Policy.