Fr. Steve Pullis: Welcome to another episode of Open Door Policy, the Unleash the Gospel Podcast, where we talk with different missionary disciples in the archdiocese of Detroit and around the whole country who are doing awesome things to bring the gospel to life. Today, we sit down with Danielle Brown, the Associate Director for the Ad Hoc Committee Against Racism on the USCCB. Danielle, we're so happy to have you. Danielle Brown: Thank you. It's an honor. Fr. Steve Pullis: We've doubled our Danielle's. Danielle Center, how are you? Danielle Center: Welcome. I'm doing great. I've known Danielle Brown for a while, and it's always like super fun to be here. How are you doing? Fr. Steve Pullis: I'm great. Again, I'm just looking forward to kicking back and letting you two catch up. Danielle Center: Be intense. Okay good. Fr. Steve Pullis: And hang out. Danielle Center: Good. Good, good, good. Danielle Brown: DB squared, DC squared. Danielle Center: Yeah. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle Center. Tell me what God's doing in your life. Danielle Center: Well, we usually start out with a few graces, and the one that I thought of is, as you know, quarantine, as you know. Well, maybe you don't know this, but the playgrounds happen. Fr. Steve Pullis: Is that still going on? Is that quarantine still going on? Danielle Center: Yes. Well, I don't know. Slowly being lifted, but playgrounds have been closed. They're slowly opening, blah, blah, blah. But my parents have a tire swing in the backyard, and over the weekend, some people came over just like outdoor picnic style, and my little nieces were over, and they went on the tire swing. It was just like this moment of iconic summer. Child screaming, tire swing, and it was really cool because there's so much going on, which is good. It's good to be involved in the world, but it was also fun to just watch a kid, laugh for a few minutes. That was fun. What about you? Fr. Steve Pullis: You know what the best part of watching your kid on a tire swing is? It really tires them out. Danielle Center: Oh my gosh. You're such a dad. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right. Danielle Center: Okay. Great. Okay good. Danielle Brown: That was great. Fr. Steve Pullis: Thanks, Danielle Brown. Grace in my life was certainly, over the past few weeks we've gotten five new priests in the Archdiocese of Detroit.. Danielle Center: Oh yeah. Danielle Brown: Praise God. Fr. Steve Pullis: I got to go to a handful of the ordinations. They're different this year because of the liturgical restrictions. It was just a real joy to see these men I've known for years as they go through the seminary now become priests and to receive their first blessing. It was awesome. That's a great joy for me. Danielle Brown: Did you cry Fr. Steve? I cry at every single ordination I go to. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah, I haven't cried in years. I don't know what to say about that. I'm not a crier. I don't know how to cry. I'm not good at cry. Danielle Center: I was at one event though. Did you not tear up a little bit when a Father ... Fr. Steve Pullis: No. Danielle Center: Oh my gosh. Listen though. Fr. Drew maybe was vested by his older brother, Fr. Zach maybe. That was so beautiful. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right. Let's do rapid fire question because you're just going to keep asking me if I cried about it, and I didn't. Danielle Center: You're like, "No, I didn't." Okay. Go for it. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle Brown, are you ready? Danielle Brown: Fire away. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right. What was your first job? Danielle Brown: I worked at a needlepoint store, a Jewish needlepoint store. It's still in existence. Rachel's Needlepoint in Southfield. She's a genius and still one of my best friends. Fr. Steve Pullis: What is the most beautiful church you have visited? Danielle Brown: Oh, geez. It's got to be the cathedral, maybe it's a Basilica in Ottawa? It's gorgeous. I think it's where the companions of the cross all get ordained, but it's just gorgeous. Fr. Steve Pullis: What was your most recent song that's been stuck in your head? Danielle Brown: Oh, man. Probably something by Hillsong, Hillsong United, I want to say. You know what? Now that I'm thinking about it, To Be Real, the disco song through the 1970s. Look it up. It's really fun. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right. What is your favorite breakfast food? Danielle Brown: It's a green smoothie. Fr. Steve Pullis: What was the location where you had a powerful encounter with God? Danielle Brown: Gee, I'm thinking about Turkey. I was in Turkey, Ephesus specifically. Beautiful. Fr. Steve Pullis: What's your favorite Bible verse? Danielle Brown: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Fr. Steve Pullis: Have you ever met anyone famous? Danielle Brown: Yeah, tons. What venue? Sports, [crosstalk 00:05:03]. Fr. Steve Pullis: Give us one. Whatever one you're excited about right now. Danielle Brown: Honestly, the one that I'm "known for" and the ones that my friends are like, "Danielle, come on. Stop talking about that already," is, in 2005, I met Bono of You too. Danielle Center: Hey. Danielle Brown: Yeah, most people who know me know that ... they were like two steps from any thought at any point growing up for 20 years. I met Bono. He was so, so sweet. It was the same night that Rosa Parks died, and it was really poignant because we talked about his work for Africa and there was few other things that were really cool. He talked about interestingly, the racial apartheid that occurs in music, which is really [crosstalk 00:06:02] our future discussion. It was so brilliant. I was like, "Dude, you're so brilliant. He talked about how he didn't have a wider audience of African-Americans because certain stations just wouldn't play their music. I was like, "Well, yeah, you're right. That makes total sense." In the same year, at the Grammys, he did a duet with Mary J. Blige. He did one with Mary J. I remember sitting in my room just crying and being like, I wonder if he thought about me when he put this together. It's a weird thought, but you got to think like, the night that Rosa Parks died, he played Detroit. He met a black girl in the lobby of his hotel, and this is what they talked about. Fr. Steve Pullis: Who is your hero? Danielle Brown: My mom, really, she's just been through so much, and she's such a prayer warrior. She has got a homily for anyone who calls, and you get it every single time. She's so strong. Yeah. Fr. Steve Pullis: All right. Last question. What is your favorite book? Danielle Brown: Oh, man. For some reason, a tree grows in Brooklyn is coming to mind right now. Fr. Steve Pullis: Awesome. Thank you. Danielle Center: All right. I'm just going to be the one who circles back to a couple of these. Ephesus, Turkey, what were you doing there? Danielle Brown: I was in a pilgrimage on the footsteps of St. Paul. Yeah, and that was one of the stops, and so we went to Mary's house. We saw the place where John received the Book of Revelation. It was amazing. Danielle Center: That's incredible. Then also, what brought you to Ottawa, and what's so stunning about that Basilica? Danielle Brown: Specifically, it's got a ceiling that is just the most beautiful Marion blue with stars on it. I want to say that that Basilica was modeled after one in Rome, but the gold gilding is just stunning. I was there actually days after I left Ephesus. One of my best girlfriends was getting married there. That's what brought me there, and it was beautiful. Danielle Center: Okay. Needlepoint job. How did you get this job, and do you need a point or what's the story? Danielle Brown: Yeah. Fr. Steve Pullis: Can you explain needle pointing to acupuncture? Danielle Center: No. Danielle Brown: That's great. Fr. Steve Pullis: What is needlepoint. It's a kind of sewing, right? Danielle Center: It's a handicraft. Yeah. Danielle Brown: It's a handicraft. Yeah, and it does not have spiritual dimensions like acupuncture. Fr. Steve Pullis: And you're not putting it into people? Danielle Brown: I'm not putting into people. Well, okay. Needlepoint, actually does have spiritual dimensions in that it's ridiculously relaxing. This needlepoint shop was Jewish, is Jewish. How did I get it? I was 10 years old and I was driving my mom nuts because I was running around the house being like, "I have to make something. There's nothing to make in this house." Next Christmas, she just bought me every single handicraft she could find, she just threw it all at me. It was just like, leave me alone, stop bugging me about things in the house to make things with. I just remember just yearning to create things and there were no raw materials. So, I tore through these needle point for kids things, and I would do them in like an hour. Danielle Center: Dang. Danielle Brown: I just instantaneously got it. That summer, she was looking for some cute dresses and got a tip that there was a dress shop in Southfield that had great stuff. We went there, and right across the hall, there was this little door, and it said, Rachel's Needlepoint. I peered inside the window and I was like, "Mom, we got to go in." She was like, "Of course we do." I go in, and just within hours, practically within hours, I'm sitting down with my first grownup canvas, and Rachel, the owner, and I just hit it off. I could do every single stitch she threw at me, even the complicated ones. Danielle Center: What? This is insane. Danielle Brown: Well, it's true. Danielle Center: I don't know that all listeners can appreciate this, but handicraft is super hard, and it takes a long time to master this stuff. The fact that you could just do stuff that an experienced person can throw at you is ... that's very impressive to me. Danielle Brown: Well, thanks. By the end of the summer, before the end of the summer, she's like, "I want you to work for me. Do you think your mom would let you do that?" Because immediately, I started wanting to go there every day. I was mega addicted. I'd sit around like little black ten-year-old with really a bunch of old Jewish ladies. They weren't all old, but most of them were old and most of them were Jewish. Danielle Center: Oh, they were older than 10. Danielle Brown: Oh yeah. But I was the youngest by a good 30 or 40 years in most situations. She realized that I could start ... I started to help the ladies to my left and to my right figure out where they screwed up and I would fix their stitches. By the end of the summer, she had hired me to help out in this store doing all sorts of things, and chief of which, the store would fill up and I'd go around the table, figuring out where the ladies had messed up their stitches and I'd teach their new stitches. That was my job. I kept it until I was about 16, and I fell in love with theater. Yeah, that's the story. Like I said, still ... everything I needed to learn about life, I learned in a Jewish needlepoint store, which again, still exist. Yeah. Danielle Center: Amen. Okay. One more question on rapid fires. Best green smoothie recipe, go. Danielle Brown: Three fourths of your container is going to be kale. Danielle Center: Yes. Yes, it is. Danielle Brown: Put in a half cup of flax seeds or chia seeds, so good for you. Then you add half a banana and then the rest of it is going to be pineapple, frozen pineapple, and then you add water. It's so good for you, so filling, and super healthy. Danielle Center: Amen. Happy after my own heart. Fr. Steve Pullis: Thank you, Danielle. Danielle Brown: You're welcome. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle, on Open Door Policy, we always want to talk about what it means to be a joyful missionary disciple, what it means to follow Jesus, to give our lives to him. We'd love to hear a little bit about your life, how you became this missionary disciple who has given ... I know you're very talented, you're very accomplished and you've chosen to give those talents and those gifts to the Lord. Tell me about your relationship with the Lord. Danielle Brown: Sure. Yeah. It's just like most people. it's complicated. I mean, he is very straightforward, it is me that complicates things. It is I who complicates things. Honestly, I've always had a close relationship with the Lord, and it's mainly because of the way that my mom raised me and was able to really translate these macro concepts about who God is in relationship to me. Even in high school, very, very close relationship. College, never missed a Sunday, except for once or twice when they changed the schedule and I just didn't know. Never miss mass, but in terms of how I lived on a day to day basis, good student, came from one of the best college prep schools in Metro Detroit. But I really enjoyed the worldly aspects of being an undergrad. It really wasn't until I came out of college and into law school and after law school that I really realized that there were aspects of my life in deep need of healing and so was in pursuit of that healing, that I was really, really blessed that a really faithful shepherd pointed me in the right direction because I could have been pointed in any direction, but by the grace of God and through some really headstrong friends that I didn't really get along with then, but it saved my life, got into teaching theology of the body really, which is a whole nother story in and of itself. But again, I had really beautiful friends who'd loved me enough to introduce me to the theology of the body and I fell in love with it and [crosstalk 00:15:25] on. Fr. Steve Pullis: Where did you make these friends, Danielle? Danielle Brown: Yeah, that matters. Fr. Steve Pullis: You're getting to a point that's really crucial, because we know lots of people want to follow the Lord, but oftentimes they feel like they either have to do it alone or they're striving for that. How did those friends come into your life? Danielle Brown: The ones that introduced me to theology of the body, I met through the New Center at Michigan State University. There was this really ... well, St. John's Center, I should say, but at any rate, there was a small group of students who planned retreats. I joined that team, not out of any real missionary zeal, but for the fact that I was really irritated that all of the music that they used to guide our meditation was country. At the time, I was a young black woman in undergrad, and I was just like, "You guys are so out of touch, it's pathetic because when you go to parties and when you go out, when you hang out with anybody other than y'all, that's not what we're listening to, but that's pathetic and you are going to turn people off, and this is not how you evangelize [crosstalk 00:16:41]. Fr. Steve Pullis: So you didn't like it. You didn't like it. Danielle Brown: I hated it. Fr. Steve Pullis: Let me just ... Danielle Brown: I was so angry. Mind you, this is coming from a girl who like, I've gone to George Strait concerts by myself. I've been to Reba concerts by myself. Danielle Center: Dang girl. Danielle Brown: I love country, but like this just isn't where, on a college campus, you were going to draw the masses, and I was so irritated. I joined the team being like, you're Lily White, and that's problematic, and now I'm here and now you're not. Out of that, I got into a bunch of arguments with people because they wanted to do a chastity talk, and this guy who is like one of the best brothers in the Lord I've ever had was basically like, "Women need to dress more modestly and it's up to you to maintain our chastity," like to maintain a man's chastity. I was just like, "What in the ..." and all my feminists theory rose up out of me. MSU did a really good job making me like really bulk at that idea. It was through time and a lot of conversation and the Holy Spirit that I came to realize, oh my gosh, he's right. Oh crap. Fast forward, he gets married to somebody on the team and they send me an invitation to something with this goofy guy's picture. It's Christopher West. I don't know who that is, but I'm going because it's about sex and the body. Recent undergrad graduate, faith and sex, yeah. In my life where I've come out of, it's no, because no, because no. I had never heard the to be put together. I went because I was just like, this sounds like something I really need in my life. It just blew me away. I remember sitting there listening to Christopher West in this tiny church near, as God would have it, where I grew up. I was so angry, I was ready to punch people. I was like, how did I not know this? Why do people never teach me? It was that anger and that just like, I'm going to do whatever I can to make sure that people in my path don't have to feel this. Don't have to feel this anxiety and this anger over not knowing about theology of the body. So I took it on myself to start studying it on my own, and I found every talk I could, and I bought like six different books at the conference. My brother introduced me to this crew of people in Metro Detroit who loved theology of the body and wanted to do chastity talks and pro-life talks, and so I joined them too. I didn't like them at the time, but they're now some of my closest friends and I don't know what I'd do without them. That, in and of itself, but that still wasn't like where I turned into the sort of missionary disciple that I am now. It was even after that when I realized like my deep need for healing and the absence of the principles that really can turn you on to God's plan for life and humanity in general. I didn't have any of that and had gotten wounded so many times because of it. Like I said, it was in the midst of trying to get some tutoring essentially from a really holy priest in the diocese that ... He just saw something in me and was just like, "You need community and you need healing. Here are the people that you need to go talk to. You need to go talk to my sister, you need to go talk to this person. It was like the holy spirit kind of just networked me to all of these people that I really needed to facilitate my healing and gave me the courage to follow through. That's really when the lights all came on and things started to change in major ways. Fr. Steve Pullis: Speaking of friends, when did you and Danielle Center meet? Danielle Brown: Yeah. DC. Danielle Center: We don't really know this. Danielle Brown: We can't remember. Danielle Center: We talked about this recently, and we think when it was is, so I'm a few years younger than this team that was giving the talks about theology of the body and chastity and retreats and stuff. I think that I showed up at one of their planning meetings kind of just by default. Danielle Brown was there and I was there, and I didn't really stick around, but I was like, oh, I have an idea. How about we stay in touch? So, we've kind of stayed in touch since then. It's been a good time. I always love hearing stories, Danielle Brown, like I love that the reason that you got involved is because you're like, wow, I'm frustrated that this isn't as good as it could be. I better jump in. Danielle Brown: Every single time. Danielle Center: That's a really beautiful way for God to call you. You know how sometimes spiritual directors will say, see where God has called you in the past, see how He's worked in your life in the past. It's just funny to be like, oh, I wonder what's happening in your life right now.and what's going to happen in the future. What needs to change? Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle Brown, your mom and my dad have become like church buds. Danielle Brown: They are. Fr. Steve Pullis: Tell me, you mentioned about really admiring your mom and her faith. Tell me what you admire most about her faith. Danielle Brown: Yeah. Just the tenacity with which she prays, and she will have faith for other people that far supplants the faith that they have for themselves. Again, she's like a newborn baby. She just bounces. She's just like, it doesn't matter what happens. God bless her. She's just so resilient. She really does have a gift for intercession. She relies on the Lord to show up. It's impressive. Danielle Center: Have you been working through any scripture, lately, and if so, what one? Danielle Brown: Yeah. I've been working through the Gospel of Mark. Man, Jesus is so compelling, right? His voice, I feel like is a little bit different. The biblical scholars out there, if you're listening, are just like, this newb, of course the voice is different. Somebody different wrote every single one of these. Of course, it's going to be different. I'm just trying to think, the challenge is, particularly that Jesus presented to the Pharisees are just so compelling to me. I'm just trying to think like, what recently? Oh, I've just been delving into the passage where the Syrophoenician woman shows her faith, and back and forth about the children's bread and who has the prior claim to it, and everything that that means. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. I think there's something beautiful about disciples reading scripture. Sometimes it can sound like this is what a disciple does, or this is what someone who loves Jesus does like, you have to do this, it's what you're supposed to do. There's one way you read it when you first meet the Lord or when you're trying to understand or study it, but when you read it, you're like trying to follow Jesus, when you're all in or you've committed to him, it's like getting to know the Lord on a deeper level and getting to hear his voice and the way he speaks. Whether at times that's really consoling, at times that's confusing, and at times it's challenging. There's something beautiful about the way scripture strikes us in the different parts of our lives. Danielle Brown: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just finished working through John, and I miss that Jesus. They're all the same Jesus obviously, but the way that Jesus speaks, in John especially, dare I say it's romantic. I remember just a few weeks ago, just sort of gushing to my girlfriends about how compelling he is, because he us. Oh my gosh. Wow. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. He's pretty great. I like him. Danielle Brown: Yeah, too much. Danielle Center: It's also interesting to be at a different spot in your life and read it again. You read these things a couple of years ago, and the years before that too. There's that element of it as well. I think that there's something just comforting about scripture as well. It's like this thing that has ... it's always speaking to me, but it's always also there. It's something that I can return to as well, which I always appreciate. Fr. Steve, what are you reading through these days? Fr. Steve Pullis: Scripture wise? Danielle Center: Yeah. Fr. Steve Pullis: I've been reading through Kings, mostly because it's in the daily readings these weeks, and there are so many awesome stories of how God works in the Book of Kings. Yeah, I love how these stories from the Old Testament are both really engaging, just history stories and the history of humanity, but it's also God's speaking to us, sometimes in teaching, but oftentimes in scripture, the Lord teaches through stories. God tells a story so that we can know either the way we should go or a cautionary like, therein lies death. I'm loving Kings these. Danielle Center: Okay. I say we just jump in Danielle Brown. You're a strong a woman. I'm a strong woman. Danielle Brown: Let's do it. Danielle Center: We were talking before we started recording about, just like racism is a topic right now. In my life, I feel like I've had so many conversations about racism from people on all, every little color of the political spectrum. I have had folks talk to me about their opinion, this, that, this, that. Where are you coming from? What's going on? What have you been working with? Yeah. Danielle Brown: I just want to flip it on you and just ask you, was there a common thread? Has there been a common thread in all the conversations you've had? Danielle Center: Oh, Jesus, take the wheel. No, and that's something that's been really interesting, and this is something that I was just talking to someone about today. You know probably more of my story than the listeners do, but blah, blah, blah. Like, they've seen my picture. I'm like super, super white. But also, the listeners who know, I attend St. Augustan Monica in the city. It's an African American parish. I worked at St. Anne's for the past three years. It's a Hispanic parish, and then I was working in the city of Detroit. Now I'm back working in the suburbs. I feel like, in different places, people presume I have a different kind of story because I look a certain way. I look like I don't have any experience, and the relationships that I do. So, no, it's been all over the map. I've seen so much disconnect between the experiences I've had and the stories that are being told. I've been everywhere, for me. What about you? What have you seen and heard? I'm sure your experience has been way more intense than mine. Danielle Brown: It's interesting. I think one of the biggest things, and first of all, disclaimer. Disclaimer, I am not speaking on behalf of my race, because that's just a burden that far too many people of color have, but I will say that ... Danielle Center: And it's an unfair burden. Danielle Brown: It's not fair, but even when you say that, people that you're speaking to, they want to understand, and so they think after just a few conversations, even, that they have a good handle on whatever it is if they've talked to you. At any rate, I think one of the things that's been a real part and parcel of a lot of people's experiences recently is just the amount of emotional processing that has had to happen. In my experience, there's just a lot of emotions to process. After George Floyd was killed and that story broke, I couldn't sleep for two weeks. I would sleep maybe four, maybe five hours, but I couldn't stay asleep. When your job is to help people work through these issues, you don't have time to actually feel the emotion. You immediately have to go into response sort of triage. It's just been really difficult to take in the number of people who have died, even in the last three or four weeks. Just this morning, two black women that I learned about, fairly prominent in their communities. One was a writer for a really popular TV show, one was an activist for African-Americans, people of African descent in Florida, and then another last night I learned about a YouTuber, a black woman who was killed by a domestic partner. Two out of three of these women were killed by a domestic partner, and one died really of depression. She killed herself. I was just struck this morning by, okay, there are all the stories that we are being educated about through these high profile deaths that are occurring, including a man who died in a similar way as George Floyd in Atlanta just this past week. There's a lot of people of color who were dying that we're not hearing about and there's an extreme amount of dysfunction in these communities. What does it mean for us to be hearing the stories of black men dying this way, but not necessarily black women who are dying in domestic partner situations, and the struggle that women face to live freely. Danielle Center: That must be just really, really exhausting. It's just so much to process. Another thing too that has been hard for me is, some of the conversations I've had with people, even with people of formation and influence within the church, who see things just in such a different lens than I do, in ways that I would consider just closing their eyes, closing their ears, that's hard, right? Danielle Brown: Yes. Danielle Center: I think another thing too, is, it's different when this is conceptual than when it's personal. Because like I said, these are the people I sit next to. It's not like, let's talk about these statistics, right? It's like, let's talk about the face of the kid who sings a solo every few weeks at church. I think that might be another thing that makes this really intense, is these are my friends, not just concepts. Danielle Brown: Right. Well, and it seems like so many people ... go ahead Fr. Steve. Do you want to jump in? Fr. Steve Pullis: No, go ahead, Danielle. Danielle Brown: Sure. I was just thinking, just like you're saying, Danielle, I feel like, it seems as if so many people across the US are having conversations about people that they do see on a regular basis, but just it never occurred to them to take a step to the right. You know what I mean? Or take a step to the left. Don't just take the normal path mentally with these people. Do something different in the way that you relate, and people are doing that and they're experiencing all of this pain because they're actually accompanying people in the way that Christ meant for them to be accompanied. That's happening in a lot of places, and it's turning into I think that's maybe the source of the movement, is that there's this desire that's really deep in a lot of people to accompany now in a new way. Because faith is not occupying the minds of folks when it comes to accompaniment in this way, I think that's why, in part, we're seeing the extent of the people taking to the streets. Fr. Steve Pullis: Yeah. Danielle Brown, I just want to talk about that, because Danielle Center mentioned about having different slices of her life. I think a lot of us have that. We have different people we relate to in different ways, whether it's a professional or families or people make assumptions about us. Sometimes I think that there can be a real challenge of having honest conversations about this that people don't feel like, that they're always walking on eggshells or that they can really ask the questions they want to ask without it being misunderstood. Do you find we're at a moment now where people are more open to that or where people are more cautious and retreating to their camps to people who ... because it's so easy for us on social media and in other places to find an echo chamber, find people who just agree with everything I say. I guess, I'm asking, do you find that we're having the conversations we need to have, and how can we do that better where it can be done in a way where like you don't get put on the spot to speak for all African-American people but honest these conversations can happen? Danielle Brown: Yeah. One of the things that ... I led a couple of conversations like this at the USCCB just amongst staff. I think people were really shocked at how quickly people were going deep, even amongst co-workers that they don't actually directly work with. The thing that I try to impress upon them and everybody else is that it doesn't have to be this hard. If you simply set the ground rule of, we're not going to get personal, we're just going to talk about ideas and not people and we agree not to attack each other. Just name the thing that you're afraid of. I can't tell you how many times people have said, "I'm really afraid that I'm going to screw up what I'm about to say next." And I'm just like, "I'm a big girl. Just say it. Just spit it out". Get the thing at a view. There's a song that Shantelle [Creviues 00:37:52], who's, I probably pushed her to her last name, but she's from Canada and she's just as brilliant writer. There's this song that she writes, and one of the lyrics is, "If I get this on paper, it's no longer going to be inside of me, threatening the life it belongs to." This is the same thing. Just get the thing on paper, just get the thing in the air and it won't be threatening you anymore. Let us just deal with it. Just the fear of being wrong, and I say it all the time, but it drives me nuts, because I think about the saints who got eaten by lions, like Ignatius of Antioch, right? He was just dreaming about being bred for the lions. I'm just like, but we're afraid that we're going to screw up verbally. It just drives me nuts, like, Lord, give me the courage to want to be bred for the lions, even though the lions are just public thinkers. Right? Danielle Center: Yeah. On my way to be podcasting tonight, I was on the phone with a young man, and he, I think is somewhere that maybe a lot of people are, is ... so twofold question first. First fold, he's like, "My social circle doesn't necessarily understand racism in the way that I think it exists. How do I address that?" Do you have any insight into that? How do you begin a conversation in talking about racism and educating about it on the personal level, but then also, you, you are a leader, you're a leader in the church. What do we need to be doing as a church as well? Danielle Brown: Sure. I am inviting all people of goodwill to start with the documents of the church. The church has not always been perfect, but people and bishops and saints have written about racism. We need to know how to think about this as a Judeo-Christian people as Catholic people. Most recently, 2018 November, the document is called Open Wide Your Heart. Or is it Open Wide Our Hearts? I'm misquoting a title, which is awful. Fr. Steve Pullis: Our heart. Danielle Brown: Our hearts. Thank you. At any rate, this is the document that the Bishops wrote in 2018. It got overshadowed by the scandal and just the need to deal with it. It's been criticized up and down just like every other church document, but it's a great pathway to just start a conversation with people who don't know where to start, and there's a great study guide that you can use really just on your own or in a group to guide your discussion. But just know that this is not forbidden fruit. This is a conversation that America needs to have, or we will be doomed to repeat the social unrest, and I don't mean the protests, but I mean, we will be doomed to repeat this nasty sin for the rest of eternity. I just don't believe that that is what the Lord intends. Fr. Steve Pullis: Danielle, tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing with this Ad Hoc committee. What is joyful about it? Where do you see hope in this work? Because this is something you've been a part of since its conception at the US Bishops Conference, is that correct? Danielle Brown: Yeah, in a sense. I'm the first staff, I'm the first full-time staff to the committee. The committee was formed after the marches on Charlottesville. I think the joyful part is really just realizing, when I go across the United States when I'm able to, again, but in the past, pre-COVID. months and years. going to dioceses and places of worship and talking to people who don't look like me, who are so acutely concerned about these issues, and interestingly, people who grew up during the civil rights movement who weren't able to process this, it's so incredibly interesting. Baby boomers who remember segregation, who never had a venue, you just couldn't talk about it, even if they grew up in the North. Also, equally interesting, learning about people's different perceptions depending on where they are. People in the South having a viscerally different reaction to race and racism than people in the North, and really just walking in their shoes and realizing that certain cities in the South, you can just feel the vestiges. Joyful is realizing there are so many Catholics out there that desperately want this country to do something different on this issue. Danielle Center: Here's a question is, as you were saying that you were working with these bigger communities and doing presentations, what are concrete steps that the church community can do to address racism, make places more welcoming, things like that? As we know, even the church in Detroit, hasn't been friendly to African-American Catholics in our history. Danielle Brown: Yeah, and it's really exhausting. I was talking to one of the bishops about that today. This is going to be controversial, but I think I'm going to say it anyway. One of the biggest ... Danielle Center: Say it, say it. Danielle Brown: One of the biggest areas, and this is super serious, is not loving black people enough to evangelize us well, and loving us enough to catechize as well. I get it. People are falling away in every demographic, but I can't tell you how many black churches I've been to across the US where it's full of grandmothers who bring their grandkids, and it's full of newly arrived African immigrants. God love them. They're filling up these churches where the vacancies once were, and this is, get me, not all, but many black churches across the United States. It's just a sadness to me that the faith has not been passed down, and it hasn't kept amongst this community in particular. Same with the native and indigenous community, where those communities have become Catholic or Catholic, just the passing on of the faith is not happening, and it's just such a sadness. Investing again in black communities, and particularly in elementary schools that are in urban areas, we all know the stories about the church closings and the combining of churches and all of that. It's very common story in large cities especially, but it hurts students of color who otherwise don't have options to get education alongside of the teachings of Jesus. It's heartbreaking as soon as these schools pull out, the students may have other quality education options, but not necessarily will they hear the name of Jesus. That's one of the biggest sadnesses. If we can, to answer your question, start investing in those communities and realizing that the bottom line, yeah, I get it, is the bottom line financially speaking. But somebody told me that our mission statement is our budget. Your budget is your mission statement. We can put our money where our mouth is on this, potentially, and start praying unto Lord, what can I do to better invest in communities of color wherein they are most in need of the truth of the gospel and the promise of the gospel and the hope of the gospel? Because the loss of hope is, again, along with the absence of the person of Jesus, one of the biggest deficits in inner cities. Danielle Center: As we draw to a close, usually we ask our guests to ... if they have any parting words or prayer for the listeners. Is there anything you would like to end with for the listeners? Danielle Brown: Yeah, sure. Just don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. People who want to make a difference in racism and want to understand racism, we have got to go to Jesus first. Not a sociologist, not a newspaper. Jesus first. Jesus last, Jesus always, but particularly I believe the Holy Spirit wants to speak in a very particular way at this time to his people. If we're not reading from his playbook, we will do deeper damage than was originally left upon the earth. That's not the impact that we want. These conversations cannot happen without Jesus. Fr. Steve Pullis: Amen. Thank you, Danielle Brown, for giving us some time and talking about this very important topic with us. Danielle Brown: Pleasure, pleasure. Danielle Center: Thank you so much. Fr. Steve Pullis: Many things to Danielle Brown for spending some time with us to talk about a very important and very timely topic of how we can combat racism in our church. Danielle Center: If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends, your neighbors, your relatives, your trader Joe cashier. You can also leave us a review on iTunes. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Our handle is @OpenDoorDetroit. Help us unleash the gospel. Open Door Policy was produced by Ron Pangborn, and the creative team of the archdiocese of Detroit. Danielle Brown: Look it up. It's really fun. Fr. Steve Pullis: I'm Fr. Steve Pullis with Danielle Center. Danielle Center: And this has been another episode of Open Door Policy.