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[0:00] Part sorry hear you're doing a podcast tonight.
[0:07] Personal winging it Jonathan lives in the cold up there.
[0:22] It's cold down here it's - 50 in.
[0:29] Music.
[1:10] Michael Mann. Weren't on the right because it is indeed troublesome tips and indeed and nuts Alex Turner 10,
or the other Alexander me scheduled and they're going to talk about differences between male and female interpreting,
it seems appropriate that I will be the one introducing the Show because all the artist host,
I'm a laugh at least that's what we think and to start with we have Alexander drechsel providing the guiding hand and the sound of comments offence to the podcast,
Alexander drechsel Camden traduction Camille and welcome everyone nice that we get the chance to talk again we just met,
very recently in Geneva for the sooty conference where you got the chance to present your poster so we'll talk about your research later on.
And also with me providing determining efficiency and witty aphorisms we have Alexander gansmeier.
Hello hi guys in thank you very much for me for doing the introduction I really think that Clark has need a woman's touch.
YouTube lapsley we have some Scottish guy who we let into provider Parade of pants and some reason she meandering Jonathan downie.
[2:42] Welcome a commuter scooter back in this is I just realised this is a first troublesome taps.
Of 2017 I think one of the biggest most troublesome questions and interpreting I wonder what would it be.
Make many men into conference interpreting I don't know why.
It's just a good start actually because of the hell man that I will comes in female fields and how actually very welcome dear.
Alexander can of the opposite when we have women coming into men seals in a way that women are really a willing to you actually.
Have men in their Fields they don't talk to you so I can Jonathan.
Great to be on this forever I was actually joking and every.
The interesting things I find is the conference interpreting is by just about any definition of female dominated field a lot of air.
Erm senior leaders are female as well which I think it is great to see and the interesting thing is a man in a female dominated field.
I feel completely comfortable anymore I crack jokes about clients thinking I'm the same Michael I'm the only guy at the back of the rooms I must be the sound engineer.
[4:14] But I think that that's the only slight discomfort ever had being in a text as it is when you get the very old client looking at you going.
You're not female and you don't approve are you clean yet.
What is going on here and I think that that is a good point to start is that we don't know why.
And it wasn't like 70 30 female Camille and Conference interpreting.
And no one and I'm not with any clients complaining I'm not worried about a man saying I don't feel welcomed but that's just how it is.
And I think that that's an interesting point itself and interpreting,
and perhaps um I just want to make a suggestion that perhaps that's a reason why we have some issues in interpreting with things like peeing conditions and Status special in Saintfield zip perhaps m,
people find it easier to take advantage of a female dominated field in a male one by could be completely wrong.
[5:18] Yeah I think there's a lot of stuff in there that we need to unpack I've been the first of all the year.
Geostatistics national Camille if you have come across any statistics in this domain when I've read it I think from the UAE data.
Where they have a ratio of 5 3 2 1.
Roughly song Jonathan you said 70/30 you this is 3217 kind of um indisposed Hubble part by 2m clearly her a female,
dominated profession which Witcher stating as effect just to say that,
2nd exit even top those figures for the the the German Association of conference interpreters were roughly were going on 700 members in over 500 of them are women.
[6:00] Part of the ratio is even a bit higher than what you were mentioning that absolutely female dominated I would go along with that.
[6:10] Camille did you come across an EU statistics when you should have prepared I got ready for you for your work exactly the same.
[6:24] And I barely know no big changes in The Last of goods or anything like you has been pretty consistent,
and it doesn't matter mean question for love you does it make sure your experience in school already when you're learning foreign languages and it University when you were studying conference interpreting.
Is 4 metres absolutely.
Yes they do it do it I feel like they were much more women in my class but then when I look at you is actually working then.
[6:55] Do German men know that there more men than women that I feel like that men actually succeed or.
Kenwood successful dad the one that are actually working like because I means being graduated and it actually worked as a huge difference.
[7:10] Yeah there is an hour also I would completely go along with that but also at the same time I think that more men who work in interpreting don't have,
an academic background in interpreting so they might have been an engineer at some point and then eventually the kind of migrate into interpreting where are most most women actually underwent the proper education for the winter University train to be an interpreter and then that's what they do wherever.
More men than women I find some kind of transition from a different field.
Aldi that's what Ricky Rachel said in the inner article was well.
[7:49] Which is funny because for me wasn't that way at all it was kind of just you know that's what I wanted to do so.
I don't really know what she is she had a lot of interesting ideas in your article. I think we're going to pick up on a couple of them and us part cast.
I think that the interesting thing is I can actually meme.
[8:08] Been working as an interpreter or enough for a 67 years now and I can personally name the only two jobs my entire career where there have been other men.
Interpreting on the job.
That's how huge the the imbalances isn't in the markets I'm used to working in a sorry I think 3 jobs in interpreting those years.
[8:35] In my muscles I think they were in if you just take you to peel languages I think they were three men in the entire year across all languages.
I'm the only one of those see no working tonight after this far as I'm aware and they may be one other but that's it and associates.
And I wasn't aware of that about studying languages at secondary school but I very much was at Masters but the bigger than bounts I was a ways off at Masters was the lack of British people studying in my degree.
Another level thing but that's a different podcast it's it's a different world cast I wonder if actually there's something about,
the kind of people who are attracted to interpreting m and I wonder.
[9:21] I've had this thought in my head and I've not seen anyone suggest it clearly me articles that I wonder if interpreting has a certain image which people don't necessarily associate with men.
[9:36] Apostle Dr you talking about the whole communications size.
Kind of um how is this the thing where people think that women are better at communicating.
[9:50] Well I think also um up until the past 12 months I've seen the TV little material from interpreting on the difference interpreting make.
[10:03] And a lot of men who admit want to be in a job with a few they're having a really strong can have manly impact not all but big with you and then a few interviews interpreting as,
we help people communicating we help we know we say what the other person said that the different language in Oslo.
A discourse about the different name pack that dirty makes in the money that interpreting makes and sore,
the accept people who would be put off if you don't think their work is making a tangible impact,
and that's why I'm so glad to see the discourse and interacting changing over the past year so we're suddenly were talking about you know how interpreting money for companies have interpreting money for governments you know all of them,
tangible impact Centre opening has on the economy summary with realising we can talk about that stuff um and I wondered if this in fizzy enabling communication bringing people together.
Image of interpreting is maybe what has attracted more women to it the men.
Under no I think it's quite funny because I really Alexander comuna very privileged position where I think you might actually change more than just you know the financial structure of a company with the Veneto benefits of a company's I think Alexander position where.
Arguably hate you.
Really do change outcomes of negotiation that affect the world and I think I read in another was right of article but somewhere that.
More men are drawn to interpreting institutional contexts I wonder what you think about that has the ratio you know.
[11:38] I'll be there but I'd like to believe that we don't,
change things but that we interpret properly,
the very few situations when there are busy lido 3 3 of us in the Booth and because we have begun,
language reference so early when there is when there are three mile interpreting the same but that's kind of something to to be celebrated figures have been very very infrequently so it's certainly something that we know it even,
the colleague that have been around for a long time is hello this is interesting 33 miles in in one boot so that's definitely noteworthy and the other thing that I noticed quite frequently actually is.
That the ratio between women and men seems to be different according to the Language Unit in the Booth so some boobs are more male,
are more female than others and um I don't know if I can say which ones exactly right now but that's definitely.
[12:50] English half my man,
when it when I was looking for for it to be on my cordless from interpretation at the Parliament have more difficulties finding them a female 48 sorry for the English boots then for the other proof of funds from Dutch into English,
so many men but couldn't find lots of women.
[13:13] By the way so I guess they don't like Putin friends leaving Jonathan to Jonathan you say that.
You you're the only one so I I I do French um,
hiya I don't know starts at a different as well I do wonder just skipping through rituals article which he will go in the show notes this idea that men are drawn towards professions where there's a skin of achievement and promotion.
I wonder if this is a problem with the discussion,
is that we actually don't know and everything we do know is from self-report interviews,
which are useful to a point but there not a researcher would call cross sectional that alternate longitude no so what the ideal would be to get people wear that University edition can a longitudinal study answer you know,
what what are you thinking of doing and install them as you go through life that's highly improbable to happen but that would give us the answers that we look for but.
I do wonder Part of Me wonders if we where to talk to children and secondary school,
Antarctica them about what kinda careers here looking for not you know do you want to be a fireman on a walk but try and get an idea of what's on your mind about what I look for in a career then we might understand from that point what were dealing with no.
I'm not necessarily concerned about the future of interpreting but it doesn't read me that I can go through my career and very really.
[14:44] Have a male colleague even on the same hijab nevermind in the same but I've only had a meal with meat once and funnily enough of Indonesia I find it easier and more peaceful to have a female bird me the name I want to know why,
it would maybe that's that's exactly the thing because the one thing that is pretty characteristic of the professionals that we have very flat,
hierarchies meaning interpreting interpreting is an interpreter and maybe you get different kinds of clients as a freelancer you get to go to different levels of meetings as an institutional.
Interpreting in basically it's always the same work and maybe you,
but it doesn't work for people who like promotions and hierarchy and leading teams in the kind of stuff but you know I actually have a problem with that.
I don't like the idea that women don't like to be promoted as much as men like to be promoted.
There's something about that idea that I found find the archaic but I guess all of that is informed by.
This is getting very philosophical I guess but you know all of this ticket is informed.
From Society from a very early age so I think if we were to interview um students or pupils in in secondary school.
[16:06] I'm sure it would be a different in what girls and boys with answer is simply because of the way that you did there as you know,
girls might get a little kitchen when they grow up in another boys get a firetruck,
so I think all of this started a very early age but I still don't like dad dad's line of argument Dad,
interpreting is a flat professor in there is no real way out if you will let my men don't like it but women are more attracted to it I also a real issue with them,
synonym Rachel's article where we are as certain interviewees,
cidade one of the reasons why more women are in a profession is the interpreting involves an element of service and women just are better at it serving I thought that was incredibly sexist and I know that obviously this isn't Rachel saying that there was somebody,
giving interview but that's why I also really good with Jonathan I'm not sure about the self.
[17:03] Reporter TVs interviews.
Give as much as an inside because it's always just a very limited perspective in people I get certificate echo chamber so you ask him and what do you think about him does a professional you know it's very.
Woman dominated why do you think that it is well maybe it's because I don't know it just let profession and it just kind of reinforces the salt point,
Mirena weight and I'm coming of you sleep come from do with it in males and females have been educated and that Simon and I think we can all agree on that,
and also a machine that men go into different diamond don't go into the profession because they can have promotion has Lisa doesn't mean that women.
Don't like promotion in might just be that it's not,
their priorities. D is not something that they want to achieve and also in the way that men and women I dedicate it maybe I don't I might be might be really sexist but it's also did you leave it,
well so that maybe you,
women. Feel like they can compete when there is promotion involved and being in a profession where you don't have to compete might be also give them more security anyway I do feel better in that sense,
and it might be til so we say that usually in communication women do communicate to.
Power somebody else opinion while then communicate to be right there.
[18:36] AA you like marriage guidance counselor that was reminded of a few conversations I had with my wife.
Hahahahaha on a different communication Styles are you actually right.
I've had more MPT discussions.
Woodman over certain aspects of interpreting and I have with women in and out of generalisation her some women who are quite happy to just throw things at me and I actually respect them from that I think the interesting thing about interpreting,
is we have,
voluntarily know I was reading tomorrow because of this with voluntary giving them I think someone in one of the other articles it were going to go in the show let's talk about the servile position of the interpreter and.
Let me get rid of very very clear that's not something that was something that was.
That is and always was a construct,
and you don't really find anything about that until the professionalization of interpreting in the fifties and sixties,
I'm on the other hand if you need some of the accounts of interpreting before then I'm talking even before the 1910 see if you go back to get Ancient Egypt and telling their aunt's translating not at the moment where did um in some societies he deliberately only like men interpret because he's so is a position of responsibility leadership.
And on that note I actually think that that's the parcel still holds true today and I believe that that's why um.
[20:10] Sometimes men also might find more success interpreting than women because in certain situations and I know for a fact that I've profited of this client will ask specifically for a man.
To do whatever jobs so I'm at I have a press conference coming up as the client specifically said the CEO,
the CFO to CEO it will only be interpreted by two men so there's actually a three person goes with a female colleague and,
two men are going to do with the press conference in right after the press conference at the female Collard is finally allowed to take the microphone so those are very,
getaways sexist things but those are simply the reality if you're working for an automotive manufacturing sensors are they going to want to have the voice that goes out into the world to be a man,
in the voice that is only heard by let's say the executive board that cannot be a woman because it's not going out into the world and I know that I've profited from that because um.
A man obviously you even though you know,
remind me to discuss wide Camille was saying that she only heard that the three troublesome steps are men actions I cannot confirm that no doubt about it no bet slip.
But there is an interesting point near and this is where I want to get take Camille recept as well,
in that I think it was and a couple of people have mentioned in research and then practical article is this really strange I think it's called the useful fake fitting someone called.
[21:44] Canonbury call that useful fiction that if you get Camille speaker.
Andrew heating a female interpreter jobs are supposed to take that as the same voice,
and the City of the gender does reverse if you have a female speaker and a meal interpreting I'm not supposed to scan it be in this mismatch if you like and.
[22:06] I find it interesting as a profession with never even thought about it.
Is there an issue if that's an issue is it something we can do about it and on the other hand we've never condemn how much of our own.
Views of our profession may be helping to build that maybe not in the phone that you can't even interactive in interpreting that when you start peeling with the letters you go when did we.
[22:32] Old stock at forcing clients to seem that whatever gender the hear through the microphone just a shame that's speaker and and done,
think any thoughts about whether the person's gender is change opportunity interpreting we don't what you think about that just assume it's all the same.
Show me Aston to do that really they're awesome Media outlets I think to pay attention and try to match the gender um.
Between them two other and the Speaker of the person on do you know TV show or whatever but that I think that's an exception.
[23:08] Anthony Martin also in court for example where if you have for example a deaf person in a tribunal Linwood.
Actually this person being handicapped to have.
And I hope to see the powerless state and if you acted as if you know interpreting,
feature that you are actually I'm actually be an issue for a person that dangerous for it that you might be a double parlour status and I you might actually prefer to have amended taking a balanced out.
Decided stuck something.
Is often also considered in court interpreting wear because of me notes when you're in the Booth gender is not as a parent as when you delete someone whispering interpreting.
[24:01] Soon as I can get so much more an issue in the is interpreting in in Healthcare or in court interpreting where the status of the person might be that actually have an influence on the outcome.
Add me to come back to work Jonathan was saying about.
[24:17] Find out when the client listen to you and hear a female voice while the speaker is famous males are only about.
The voice with small team event ID interactive aware of how much of the gender differ in the way they speak.
Because there are many many differences in the way men and women speak but are we even aware of that.
[24:43] That's also a Christmas Island singer interpreting school at least we actually teach people like you because you're what you're a female you do actually speak in that way so be careful when you interpret a man not to do just thinking that we are the country,
what we know that there are differences in the way we speak.
Can you give us an example of minutes are we talking about things like vocal fry for example where women talk in a lower voice to seem more convincing that kind of thing.
I don't know that there is a difference in Pitch indeed but that's none of the biggest difference,
you're too big differences in the waist are men and women speak in 17 is language we don't know yet exactly what I'm destined for interpreting because there is not that many research,
interpreting but they're their there worksheet research it was saying have a colleague at the University of Kent who Focuses on the differences in the way,
men and women speak in for example there is one that concerns what we call Hedges so it's term the fact of mitigating,
something that has been said for example by adding phrases like um.
Maybe or perhaps I think I believe Sword of Eden you know for example those things that we had if you want you to listen to that of something that we see.
And there is a difference is there between men and women wear women actually tend to add more headers so they change actually mitigate.
[26:19] What does feature is seen an Indian from the Disco league did their research on interpreting and hedges and European Parliament as well and noticed that women do in the evening interpreting,
national Hedges manager also operates have an impact on the message,
flat something else in the other thing is when we talked about the lateness,
politeness in the way I don't know if you've heard about this :-( threatening acts examples for their in politeness there is a whole concept of face,
it's Chinese concert that we now have adopted where are you when you come in in case you're trying to protect your face,
annual you can attack the other person's face and we seen that there are also differences in the way men and women talk.
Dutch and women are much like to live for them much more trying to preserve their face goals for the face of the other people while men Tend To Be,
blush for light and airy differences also as well in interpreting in that way.
So we see that doing really we speak is actually,
difference evening interpreting and it was an army Michael baby girls so I know their researching Mason dates,
Odyssey research before a court interpreting and indeed she also found a lot of differences and politeness in the way men and women handle politeness and also for example sure women 10th June.
[28:00] Ahmad Ammar careers that would indicate differences difference from seeing server for example when talking to someone stayed in 20 mins markers of Yorkie for example.
[28:14] So and to promote intimacy in a week.
So there any differences in the way we speak and I don't think we really are weird that because that's.
Even if it if it appears even when we interpreting problems that were not aware of that that's very interesting.
[28:34] Only think about is actually efficient interpreting because it takes time and it's changed the message.
Say something into as a strategy for example.
[28:48] Music.
[28:55] This completes part 1 of this episode of the troublesome terps podcast a conversation about gender difference and interpreting.
Make sure you tune in for the second part of our conversation with Camille colour will take a closer look at her research,
find a pet trouble terps. Comm and on Twitter at troublesome remember to subscribe to a podcast in iTunes or wherever you listen to podcast,
you don't need any Future episode.
[29:23] Music.