52: Bullying Alex G: Troublesome Terps trail runners, hello?! Jonathan: Welcome to Troublesome Terps, a podcast about the things that keep interpreters up at night, and two of us are feeling like we've been kept up at night. If you hear yawning, we'll Alex D: Literally. Jonathan: Try and take that. We will try and take that post, if at all possible. First, though, we have to say that our very own Sarah Hecky couldn't make it tonight. So it'll be just us boys, the Oji crew. I never know what she means. So without any further ado, here is our unique munchkin, Alexander Gansmeier. Alex G: Hey, guys, if I had known that you didn't know what I would do, I could have come up with something really funny, but I'm not that good on a fly, you know? You know, interpreters are not that spontaneous, but. Alex D: It's Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Sort of like Alex G: I Alex D: Original Alex G: Mean. Alex D: Generation or something like that. Alex G: I think it's supposed to be our original gangster, but that's not very funny. Yeah, Jonathan: Is Alex G: But you already Jonathan: Short Alex G: Heard him Jonathan: For orgo. Alex G: Moving on to oh, but moving on to our Brussels. But Alexander Drechsel Alex D: Oh, Alex G: Is also in the house. Alex, how are you? Alex D: Yeah, and the virtual house and the zoom box on the top, right. Alex G: In the Alex D: Good Alex G: Zombo, Alex D: To see you both. Alex G: Actually, the tank top left. Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: Yeah. Alex D: Yeah. It's different for everyone, Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: But it's definitely a box. Definitely a box. Alex G: Got to think outside the box sometimes. Jonathan: It's a zoom box boom box, and I have to say that Troublesome Terps got here with things in meetings before just about anyone else, we've been recording on them for years. Alex D: Yeah, but the Oggi rumors, OK, Zouma, I guess, Alex G: Ok, Zoomer. Alex D: Ok, Jonathan: Oh, Alex D: Zouma, Jonathan: No. Here we go. This Alex D: We're Jonathan: Is Alex D: Off to a good start. Only Jonathan: Kristaps. Alex G: Great, it's just me and the two Alex D: We Alex G: Dads for all the dad jokes that I can handle, right? Alex D: More than you can handle possibly. Alex G: Oh, God. Jonathan: Well, funnily enough, talking about things that you can handle, did you hear that Segway Alex D: In. Jonathan: Into Alex G: Oh. Jonathan: Talking? Alex G: Thing of beauty. Jonathan: Squeaking And what we're going to we're going to say great things, so we're talking about something that no one should be made to handle. A little bit of background to this. Throughout my InterpretBank career and I've been in this business translation interpreting for about 12 years, I realized that many and most of the people that I meet, most of the fellow professionals are supportive. But I recognize several episodes throughout my career so far where I have been the victim of bullying. I hope I've never been the perpetrator. If I have, I apologize in advance. I don't realize. But where I have been the victim of bullying and where bullying has been something that has had to be dealt with. And so today we want to have a show on BILLI, not just you know, we've talked about Boothman before, but I thought it'd be good to talk about bullying and is it in as broad terms as possible. I'm working on some things I'm grilling at the moment. And one of the things that the experts on bullying always say is keep your definition as broad as you can, because there's always something that you haven't thought of. So I just wanted to say, I mean, I can remember times when I been bullied a couple of times because apparently I have an accent, no idea where people get that impression. Alex D: That's that's just wrong. Jonathan: Crazy, but also because I mean, for various reasons as well, but have you two ever been on the receiving end of bullying or kind of anti-social interpretor or translater behavior? Alex D: I don't think I have been, but what you just said really resonated with me about trying to stick with a very broad definition because I'm a dad. Alex just pointed out. So I have two kids that both in school and as far as I can tell, they haven't been bullied yet. But it's something that I think every parent is probably very, very aware of. And you're sort of looking out for signs whether, you know, if your kid is probably being bullied. And, you know, there have been stories at school. So it's definitely something that's very much on top of mind, if you will, but not for me personally. And as far as I can tell, I don't think so. How about you, Alex? Alex G: No, I don't think I've been bullied, but then again, I think that's a very I mean, even if we keep the definition very broad, I think it's a pretty subjective feeling, like when you've been bullied and when you've just been dealing with an idiot, there's, you know, like because there's definitely some colleagues, one in particular comes to mind Jonathan: Sorry. Alex D: Who shall remain nameless? Alex G: Who shall obviously remain nameless. But I'm not the only one who thinks that he's an idiot. But he's just you know, he I think he's a racist or sexist, a homophobe, a bad interpreter. And he has no manners. So, you know. I don't know, I don't think he's bullying me because I I don't know. Alex D: It's just being himself, is what you're saying. Alex G: He had basically just being himself, he also stuck to the clients. You know, I'm not sure I Alex D: Ok. Alex G: Think it is a bad person, but whatever. Jonathan: There's a couple reasons why I wanted to talk about this, one is I'm currently in the middle of doing a building study, so you may get an email from an association asking you to take part or it may be included in some updates. If you see a building survey with my name on it, please do it. I'm not going to disclose which associations I'm trying to do it with because that's commercially sensitive, obviously. But the something that I noticed about bullying is that people who've never been through it often don't see it. And the people who have been through it can be seriously affected by. I know of colleagues who felt like leaving the profession because of even something that just seems like a one off behavior. I also know of people who have said I don't want anything to do with that organization, and it could be a variety of organizations because of what a person that or because of how something was reacted to bullying isn't just about the kind of typical diva you know, I need still water at 24 degrees centigrade delivered by a cherub wearing a gold lace or something. Alex D: Obviously, Jonathan: It Alex D: Obviously. Jonathan: It Alex G: Oddly specific. Jonathan: It it purely and simply is about misusing your power and influence. So it could be something like if you disagree with someone on social media, there's a very for me, there's a very clear line between saying, I disagree and you're a pal of the profession. And I think, you know, that's a really simple example, a very simple example from my career when my first book came out, you know, there were various people having various views. And I think it's good to have discussions. But I had one person say that I was a danger to the profession. Alex D: Oh, Alex G: That Alex D: Well, Alex G: Sentence. Alex D: That is intense. Jonathan: At the time, I was like at the time I shook off because let's be fair, I lived in the west of Scotland, I've had a lot worse. But but if that was said to someone you who was just learning and who hadn't been through stuff and who was, that could actually be more dangerous to the profession than any of you could be. So is anything that kind of uses humiliation, misusing your influence, misusing your power, dragging someone publicly? There's such a wide variety, and I'm sure all of us have seen incidents where people were dragged publicly either conference or on social media or anywhere like that with your name, which is ripped apart. And that's the way I can understand the anger when people say stuff we disagree with, there has to be a point where we see, no, that's that's not OK. Alex D: Yeah, and at the risk of doing something that I hate when people do that is saying, yeah, InterpretBank is a very particular, very special profession. But I I think what what happens quite often is that sort of our professional, our work as interpreters is very tied up with our personality and who we are and as a strong degree of identification, I think, with our profession. So it's just very, very easy. I think it can happen very quickly. That criticism or just a snide remark, you know, can turn into bullying. Maybe that's not even intention, but that's what happens. So I think that's one of the issues as well. Jonathan: I noticed something so pale and I were doing a parenting course and the people doing the course said, with misbehavior in your children, it's often a gift that they've got in their life that's gone awry. And every interruptive that I know is incredibly good with their mouth and with their language. So if there's someone you don't want to drag, you know, it's an interpreter and I think is it possible that we sometimes get care so much about our work and get so good with our words? There are very gifting can actually go the wrong way that we can get creative with how we see awful things about people, as well as being creative with how we do it. And they're putting. Alex D: You mean abusing our gift of language, Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Gift Alex G: I Alex D: Of Alex G: Mean, Alex D: The gab? Alex G: You know, turning from a superhero to a super villain. Alex D: It's a fine line. Alex G: You know, all it takes is on that day, as the Joker says, but I think if anything. Shouldn't we be more careful in how we phrase it just because we know the power of words and we know the power of, you know, also the wrong words? I think if anything, it would seem to me more logical that we would be more careful about what we say and how we say it. Alex D: And to whom, like more diplomatic. Alex G: And Alex D: Right. Alex G: Yeah, I mean, ideal case, I don't know, I Alex D: The Alex G: Am guessing Alex D: Best Alex G: If you Alex D: Case Alex G: Want Alex D: Scenario. Alex G: To, you know, like if you want to trash talk someone or be really mean and nasty to someone, I'm guessing you could also use the power and turn it around. But then I think that goes for anyone, you know what I mean? Like, I think you have to be an interpreter if you want to be nasty to someone to find a very creative or very. Colorful way of portraying it or, you know, does that make sense? Alex D: It does. Yeah, I'm also reminded of a blog post that somebody wrote a couple of months ago, I think, which was I think entitled Being the Youngest Person in the room. So I think that is also something that I think happens more often than we think or than than we're aware of is just being a junior interpreter maybe your first assignment, one of your first assignments, and just, you know, maybe the more senior colleagues are not even doing this intentionally or it's not coming from a bad place. But you kind of feel immediately that, hmm, do I belong here? And I just I guess it's tied up with the whole question of, you know, imposter Alex G: Don't Alex D: Syndrome. Alex G: Say imposter syndrome, just don't Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Say it. Uh. Alex D: First password of the night. Here we go. Alex G: I'm going to get a bingo in Alex D: Check. Alex G: Five minutes, I'm telling Jonathan: So Alex G: You. Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: I think Alex D: But Jonathan: The Alex D: It's Jonathan: Interest Alex D: True, though. Jonathan: Yeah, and so there are someone introduce me to the term recently of micro aggressions and I had never come across. And we've got some examples. So thank you to the 13 people who answer their call for surveys and examples and little micro aggressions like not sending nor sharing documents or things like, you know, not being ready to give someone a terrorist. They're asking for it. And it's like these these are tiny, tiny things. And it's possibly very easy to fall into, like, you know. I know. Want one on the very few jobs that I've been missing. It InterpretBank is very easy to think. Don't they know about Bijoy, you think? Well, when I was that l-a my career, I didn't know about whatever that was either. And things like if someone says or I really I remember seeing someone I really need to work on my comsec because my Comsec a rusty and their answer was, well, if you go into a better university you're Comsec would be better. It's Alex D: I Jonathan: Like. Alex D: Yeah, I kolbe's Jonathan: It Alex D: That Jonathan: Really Alex D: Is such a load of nonsense. Jonathan: Is it's very easy to slip into that stuff without seeing I mean, I'm just looking at some of the examples here. Some of it is. Alex D: It's a bit like saying you Jonathan: Yeah. Alex D: Can never work for one of the big institutions if you haven't been to, as it you know, in Geneva, Jonathan: Yeah, Alex D: Munson's, of course you can. Jonathan: It can work and it's yeah, it's the someone who was it? Am I right? Don't talk about the phrase don't don't you already know it's like you. Yeah. Alex D: You know what, Jonathan: That Alex D: Like what about what? Jonathan: Little bit like it could be. You know, someone say don't you already know the term for such and such thought. You already Alex D: Oh. Jonathan: Know that they're there. Told you already. And it's like Alex D: How Jonathan: The SCIC. Alex D: Can you not know that? Jonathan: Yeah, Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: Oh, my goodness, I can you not know that I felt like the the youngest, least experienced person in the room sometimes when I've admitted not knowing something you've had, I mean, it's probably not thrilling, but Callie's going, you know. I can't name all of the arms of the of the United Nations without thinking, though, it just can't. Alex D: Yeah, so that would be sort of a term and a lot like a terminology microaggression, I guess we could call it that. But yeah, but if we if we look at the responses we got, did you see, like, sort of topics that came up again and again? Because I think I can see a few. One of them is sort of age or experience related. Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: I think that's definitely. Alex G: So I think we should also say it was a wide range of ages that partook in the in the survey, also a wide range of experience levels from less than five years to more than 25 years even. Alex D: Super interesting, Jim. Alex G: So I was really, really interesting, and it was 70 percent women, 30 percent men and 77 percent have experienced bullying as an interpreter. We did not correlate, you know, the age groups or the gender to the bullying answers, which we could have. Alex D: I mean, it's Alex G: But, Alex D: Not a scientific Alex G: You know. Alex D: Study, you Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: Know, it's really Alex G: So Alex D: Just Alex G: It wasn't supposed Alex D: Anecdotal. Alex G: To be a scientific study, but Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: I think it's that's a scary number. You know, 77 percent of 13 participants are granted. It's not. Alex D: Representative, Alex G: Representative, thank Alex D: No, Alex G: You. I couldn't think of the word. Alex D: How can you not know that? Alex G: Let's see, I don't know. I didn't study in Paris, my life is a mess, I don't know Alex D: Oh, Alex G: What to do. But Alex D: Man. Alex G: Yes, I think that's quite shocking to to to see that. Jonathan: And it says it says something they know the likelihood is because it's more likely the people had experienced it would respond, that that's normal. But what shocks me is the severity of some of the things that we've got. Yes, we've got people being lied about. We've got rumors being spread. We've got sexual harassment. We've got it looks like in a couple of cases, people trying to ruin other people's careers. Alex G: Oh, wait. And I have been bullied. I asked I didn't even that didn't even occur to me. Yeah, sorry. Alex D: He said casually. Jonathan: Tell Alex G: No, Jonathan: Me Alex G: Because Jonathan: More. Alex G: No, because, you know, it's like, yeah, just rumors being spread about you and stuff like that has happened. That has happened for sure. I didn't take that as bullying, but yeah. Now that you mention it, that is. Yeah. That's of course part of it. Alex D: That Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Probably comes with the terrain, right, interpreting being a sort Alex G: That's Alex D: Of Alex G: Kind of what Alex D: Particular Alex G: I thought, you know, Alex D: Profession, Alex G: That's just Alex D: Again, Alex G: Kind of part of the of the rights Alex D: I'm not Alex G: Of. Alex D: Saying it's OK, but, you know. Alex G: Yeah, that's why I didn't, you know, register to me like this, just like everybody, almost every almost everybody that I know has kind of gone through there or has, like, stories about that. But, of course, Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: It's bullying. It just Alex D: It Alex G: Felt Alex D: Is, Alex G: So normal Alex D: It definitely Alex G: That, Alex D: Is, Alex G: You Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Know. Yeah, of course. Oh, yeah. One. Alex D: Yeah, I think that's kind of illustrates the whole point, right, that you need a wide definition and some many things that you may have experienced, you didn't even realize that it was bullying, but it clearly was in hindsight. Alex G: Yeah, and then on top of all of that, sorry, Jonathan, just real quick, on top of all of that, I think, you know, obviously the three of us as well have the advantage that we're three white males. So I think a lot Alex D: Totally. Alex G: Of crap has just not gone our way. That would have gone a lot of other people's Alex D: Oh, Alex G: Way. Alex D: Yeah, yeah. Alex G: So that's just. Yeah. Alex D: You're just acknowledging and acknowledging how privilege you're sorry, Jonathan. Go Jonathan: I Alex D: Ahead. Jonathan: Mean, if you look at I'm not going to reveal which bullying tool I'm using, but if you look at all the bullying to the range of stuff, the cover goes from being given tasks below your training and being ignored all the way up to sexual harassment. And if literally anything in there, it it really so bullying for me, the importance of bullying is you recognize that subject a bit. Just because something is subjective doesn't mean it's not important. And one of the most difficult things that I've had to deal with, not so much as an adult, but more kind of when I was younger, is saying I feel bullied by this situation. And the person going, well, that's normal. You know, it is normal to do this thing. It's not bullying. This is just how we act and the way that you guys did. And I thought it says something about the profession that we have certain behaviors that are simply deemed acceptable. And the next idea I brought in, I've got an article talking at called on community asking the question of their values and behaviors and even books and articles that are promoting behaviors that we shouldn't be promoting. And I was given the example of the realization with the Metoo movement and things like it, that there was a culture that said this is acceptable. We was that was that ever acceptable? And and I think bullying raises a question for me. You know, are their values and the expectations that we've allowed to live in interpreting going on just comes with the territory. You know, the shouldn't. Alex D: But Jonathan: Yeah. Alex D: I guess the interesting question then is why do we just accept it or why do we think it's OK? Why do we think, well, it's just always been that way. I guess that that's just the way things are done in this profession. Alex G: You know, I think it's because especially in freelancing, you kind of get along to goal to go along, is that the phrase? Because if I don't tolerate this is a hypothetical. Right. I'm not speaking about my own situation, but if somebody is being mean to you, if you feel like somebody is bullying you but they've hired you for a job, you still want the next job because you're still, you know, in that phase, especially when you're starting Alex D: That's Alex G: Out young. Alex D: It, exactly. Alex G: And I think it's a lot of that relationship and that network building that you have to do. And we kind of have to rely on each other even if we don't like each other. You know that one colleague that I was talking about in the very beginning, I work with him on two jobs a year, not by my own choice, but I'm not going to not take the job because I know I'm going to be there with him. I just say, listen, Alex D: Just Alex G: We're Alex D: Going to grin Alex G: Not getting Alex D: And bear Alex G: Along. Alex D: It. Alex G: Just shut up. You know, I'm not going to talk to you. It's fine. Let's just do the job. And so I think a lot of it has to do with that. That's why we take more crap than we should. And that's why it's quote unquote normal, because that's just how. I don't know. Alex D: Well, it's not normal, but you just accept it because you want to Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Get recruited Alex G: Yeah, quote Alex D: Again. Alex G: Unquote, normal, of course, Alex D: So, Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: There are also power structures in place, so if you're doing can I just say the other if you're doing a masters in interpreting data, are likely going to be times where you feel that you are struggling or you're not free or your things aren't going well for whatever reason, we need to normalize. Shouldn't seeing put the hand up and saying, look, I'm struggling. But if you have someone who throughout the entire degree is feeling constantly pressed down and pushed, we can't normalize the idea that trading is a thing where you should be crying every day and this is where you have to rebalance balance of trading to do anything. I was talking to someone about this with the usual I think it is normal during your pièce that at some point you will feel like you're not going to finish. But that doesn't mean that we should create a toxic culture that says you should be working yourself to death. It is that line of learning anything is hard. Fine. But you should be learning in a healthy way and we should be creating supportive environments. You know, your first job is going to be nerve wracking, but it's not OK for your business to go higher. You're a newbie. Alex D: Yeah, but that's what's so interesting about this example you just had, you know, postdocs or PhDs, but but also just doing a masters and talking about how difficult it can be, because we just said that social media can be a space where people are bullied or, you know, put down or I don't know, or worse, I guess. But they can also be a place where people, you know, support each other and where people can share stories and just get just get acceptance from others, you know? Doesn't always have to be. Yeah, but you should do X, Y and Z. Sometimes it's just enough to say I see you're struggling, sorry. Or I have the same experience for example. That can be very helpful. So it's interesting that it can be both soul crushing and helpful. I know I. Alex G: But, you know, also on social media, I just want to put this out there real quick, it's very healthy to block people as well. Like if somebody is really and, you know, this is really funny and I'm not even being trying to be funny, but, you know, you can block people on Twitter and I've done it. And it's it's it's good for your for the health of your soul, like it makes Alex D: Self Alex G: Your life so Alex D: Care, Alex G: Much better. Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Yeah. Basically mental health care for sure. Alex D: Yeah, I think that that the lines got a little bit blurred there, because often people say, well, but, you know, you have to sometimes you just have to deal with people having a different opinion or, you know, but you don't have to deal with people giving you crap. Pardon Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: My French, but, Alex G: Now, Alex D: You know. Alex G: Do you speak French? Alex D: We miss you. Jonathan: Ok, can I just put this out there and it's probably going to be to use that other buzzword, controversial. Just Alex G: Ingo. Alex D: Bengoa. Jonathan: Just just because someone is influential or is an influencer or has power in our sector, that doesn't mean you have to keep following them. And if Alex D: Yes, Jonathan: No Alex D: Yes, Jonathan: Matter how influential, Alex D: 100 Jonathan: No matter Alex D: Percent. Jonathan: How big a name they are, if you want to block them, no one's going to care. And, you know, they they don't you know, there are people who have influence in our sector, the mute or I block, I'm not going to say who because it would be fear. Alex G: Is that why you haven't retweeted me in a. Jonathan: Oh, I hope you would say that, of course I would blow you, Alex. So I have this is kind of off topic, but I have this thing of I used to want to respond to everyone who said something stupid, especially when I was a teenager. No, I'm no, I'm getting to the. Is this what my brain space. Because I'm getting so busy with stuff, I have four kids, I have a business, I have research, my brain has a maximum amount of space in it. And I ask myself all the time, is it worth dedicating any brain space to responding to what's going on? And it gets to the point where if there's a person who keeps coming up with my social media feeds who I want to engage with over stuff that's not worth my brain space, I hit the mute button. And it's not saying that about the person that's not saying they're bullying, but it's just the stuff they're surfacing. I don't want to get sucked in that alley. And especially with theater, we all know people who, if you respond, you're going to have like a three year long reply response thing on Twitter. I don't have the brain space for that anymore, so safer to just. Alex G: Because also, especially on social media, some people just throw crap out there in order to instigate, you know, like they you say the Alex D: That Alex G: Sky Alex D: Happens Alex G: Is blue and Alex D: More Alex G: They're like, actually Alex D: Often these Alex G: The sky Alex D: Days. Alex G: Is red. Let's fight about this. And oftentimes there's just no point in going back and forth with them because the whole point of that conversation for them is to start a fight. So oftentimes, like, you just really don't want to get sucked down into that rabbit hole at all, Alex D: That's Alex G: For Alex D: Just Alex G: Sure. Alex D: Trolling. Yeah. Alex G: Exactly. Yeah. Jonathan: And to be fair, I used to do that a couple of things myself, I try not to do it anymore, but. Alex D: But that no, no, there's a difference between trolling and sorry, being a dick, you know? Alex G: Yeah, but also, you know, sometimes you just want to play devil's advocate, you know, if you're actually having a substantial conversation about any given topic you might want to play, OK, maybe A is true, but what about if B is also true, could we then say no, no, no, no, no. And then you're not necessarily being a troll, but you know what I mean. Jonathan: And I think this is it really comes down to two things. There's a great big bang I called David Levermore called Cultural Intelligence, and he points out where cultures are made out of. And so it comes down to two things when it comes to interprofessional culture. And I've never asked that question before on the show, but I don't think we got an answer to it. But there's a big question in my head, just like, what do we want the professional culture of in terrorism to look like? And culture isn't just what you post on social media or, you know, how you treat people. Culture is the assumptions. So people see the behavior in the dress and the threats. You know, you go to Germany, you expect certain things of German culture. But that was not a whole lot of assumptions. This whole belief, this whole lot of things that get taken for granted in cultures you don't see but are there anyway. And so I'm thinking you what would we want InterpretBank culture to look like? What should we be able to take for granted? What are the assumptions that should be there? And then on top of that, what are the behaviors look like? That's a big question. And to me, one of the answers is and it's the second part of my thing is it comes down to what it means to be professional and to treat people professionally. And ask that question I still don't have an answer to is when and how is it right to correct someone and say that's not right? Alex D: Yeah, I mean, this ties into the whole sort of feedback culture and how is it OK to, first of all, help somebody, you know, write down numbers, terminology for them, give them feedback, all that jazz. So, yeah, I don't know. We could talk about this for days, I guess. Jonathan: I was always there when it comes to terminology, help and numbers, because all the bit to me, the definition of a good booth is one where there was a lady who I work with quite a lot and they got to the point where we could predict where each other would need help with just by body language or just by knowing in advance what each friend tough. Alex D: It's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, Jonathan: Yeah, Alex D: It's amazing. Jonathan: It is hard to get to, but then if you've gone from that environment to the environment where you're with me, it's like, well, when I'm off shift, I'm off shift. It's like trying to change gears in a car without engaging the clutch. Alex G: Yeah, but see, I mean, sorry, go ahead. Alex D: No, I was just going to say a lot of the a lot of the stories that people were sending us through this form and again, thanks for that, was sort of more buth matters. I think so. You know, it was people just typing too loudly, being noisy, just leaving, leaving the booth for the entire time they're not on. So things that I would just classify as bad boothman manners. But I guess that can easily sort of shift and tilt Alex G: Exactly Alex D: Into just being Alex G: Right. Alex D: A dick and Alex G: Yes, Alex D: Bullying. Alex G: I Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Really think there is a fine line between just being a dick and then, you know, bullying someone, but I also think it's a lot of it has to do with intent, you know, because I know a lot of colleagues who just leave, you know, like they might want a smoke break. They might Alex D: 100 Alex G: Have Alex D: Percent. Alex G: To call, I don't know, their kid's school or whatever, and they just leave. And I don't mind like, I'm fine. You know, it's my it's my turn. I'm going to make it work even if I don't know where I'm going to look at, you know, like I'll make it work. It's fine. But I think if somebody's leaving the booth with that kind of malicious intent of I'm abandoning you on purpose, then I think it's a completely different equation. And I think that's what a lot of those stories were about, because it's usually I don't think any of the stories was just like, oh, they left. They left me alone in the booth. I think it was always that was one of a litany of bullet points that that other person Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: Did to Alex D: It's Alex G: Them. Alex D: Just sort of systemic, systematic Alex G: Yeah, systematic Alex D: Jack jackassery. Alex G: For sure. Jackassery. Jonathan: Usually the only reason I leave the booth during the other person's shift is because I need to go to the toilet and let's face it, the amount of water we drink, it's going to happen. But I will say, see, do something first to see. I'm just going to the toilet. I'll be back. And usually if I'm in a nice conference place, I'll make sure I grab a pastry on the way back because it doesn't like pastry Alex D: Problem Jonathan: Or even Alex D: Of. Jonathan: Like, you know, I think is good manners. If you really have to to leave the booth to grab a drink for your booth mate where you don't because, you know, it's a way of saying sorry, but also maybe I'm wrong. But I think they in most conferences, you have a good idea of when it's going to be OK to leave the booth. Silly story. I was interpreting a social policy thing once with my favorite with me. My session was either of us could have done it without Isha. It was really simple turn of the make it to my booth, me. And it's this Irish trade unionist who starts by saying pretty much word for word. Since I'm in Edinburgh, I would like to begin my speech with a quote from Robert Burns. And I knew then that if I left the booth in the next half hour, I would never be allowed back in for good reason. It is like if he knew that was going to be some stupid, long financed speech or if you know that the speaker coming up is famous for quoting Plato and Socrates and goodness knows whatever other you know, it is not OK to leave the booth during that stop. But if it's like if it's the chair's introductory speech, I'm sorry, pretty much any interpreter can do that on their own. We know when it's OK and when it's not usually. Alex D: Yeah, that's true. So another thing that is, well, it's actually extremely uncomfortable to talk about because as Alex pointed out earlier, which is three male white dudes, but it did come up not only in the responses that we got to our little totally unscientific survey, but it's also that something that I've heard from many, unfortunately, too many female colleagues over the years, just in conversations, is the whole sort of topic of sexual harassment, which happens way too often. And it seems there's a bit of a yeah, a bit of a trend is not the right word, but it's there seem to be a lot of clients out there. And, yes, they're all male who seem to have a very wrong idea of what an interpreter does or should be doing. A female interpreter, that is. So I don't know if you've heard, you know those stories as well. So it's usually it starts with, you know, suppose it compliments that I actually, you know, very uncomfortable and make people uncomfortable. And it it's also about, you know, being too close to the interpreter. If you could be schottische, for example, or just if you're in a group together somewhere, just a lot of inappropriate behavior. And I think that's it's just really awful. It's really, really awful. And also that the stories that people have been sharing are just it's gut wrenching. It really is. Jonathan: And I think the question that comes up in my mind is, is how much can be done to prevent that? They will always be until they get jail. There will always be harassers around. And sadly, I'm aware from stories that I know that sadly among. Certain groups of people, it's more common than others and it's deemed acceptable by them and it's some maybe the question then is how do we create an interesting culture? We even realize there's a limit. And is there any scope anywhere to have you? Can't there blacklist because of GDP of the world? You know, ideally, we'd want to have a blacklist and just say, look, if you harass one of my colleagues, none of us are interpreting for you. Ever. Did you hear that? Alex D: Yeah, I think that's definitely one part is just being it sounds kind of trite, but just being an ally, just being a decent person and looking out for your colleagues, if you want to put it that way, that's that's true. So that that would apply to colleagues on the same team. That would apply to consultant Interpreters' Help specifically. I think that's what you were just saying, Jonathan. Right. And I suppose some people would say as well, you know, it's culture specific. And in in some cultures, that's just the way it is. But no, no, Jonathan: No, Alex D: No. Jonathan: No, and I mean, literally, so I'm just deciding on a policy right now, if I'm the consultant on any job and there are credible reports of the client doing that or even reports from, you know, all the colleagues I would work with, I trusted the report. Credible, if there are reports of that. The client is never getting any interplaying from anywhere from me as a consultant again, for there is not like a three strikes and you know, it is a one strike and don't even try Alex D: Yeah, and Jonathan: And. Alex D: I think it's not about sort of, you know, making a fuss or kicking up a stink, I think you can say that sort of discreetly, but you can still be very firm about, you know, this this is not OK. Jonathan: You know, it's easy enough for a consultant to say thank you very much for your request from Quobba, following the feedback from the interpreters on the last job. I'm not prepared to take any work from you. Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: So we need to see. Alex D: And I mean, that is a really tough decision, especially in times like these, you know, in this economy. But yeah, I think it would be important to to do Jonathan: Yeah, Alex D: That. Jonathan: To make us that, I would like to see as many consultants as possible sign up to that standard, that if they get reports of that, they just go, nope, because people some people don't realize they're doing it. Some people get a kick out of doing it. And I think I think with BS, like, it's like billing as a whole, people get a kick out of that stuff. Alex G: The power Jonathan: But Alex G: Thing. Jonathan: Ah, Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: But like, Alex D: Totally. Jonathan: You know, if a company suddenly realizes that they cannot get in there because the people have been behaving badly, I'm sorry, but stuff gets done because companies want to export, they want to have conferences. Alex G: Yeah, but, Jonathan, they're always going to get somebody that's the trouble, like they're never not going to find Interpreters' Help. Jonathan: I guess all you can do is make it harder and harder for them and certainly the idea of, you know, if the interrogators that they can get are becoming worse and worse quality because all the good ones know who they are, you know, that's fine. But it's how you do that legally and fairly and how you do that well. Can we just see really clearly that is not OK? And if Alex D: If Jonathan: You think Alex D: It needs Jonathan: About Alex D: To be Jonathan: It, Alex D: Said, but, yeah, maybe Jonathan: If Alex D: It does. Jonathan: You think that's OK, feel free to find another profession. You know, this is as simple as that. Alex D: Yeah, I guess we could turn that around, what you said earlier is that, you know, people who do this are a danger to the profession. I guess that it's probably not overly dramatic saying that because, you know, it creates a toxic atmosphere and it will drive people away and it will drive people out. Jonathan: Well, Alex D: And that's just not on. Jonathan: I got asked recently, you know, what do you see the people asking me because of the second book? What you see is the future of InterpretBank and I know you people because I say, as far as I'm concerned, the future of InterpretBank depends on what their fathers do Alex D: Duh. Jonathan: And. Alex D: Yeah, but it's yeah, true. Jonathan: And so, you know, if we don't want any more interpreters, then bullying is OK, if we if we would like a new generation and therefore the bullying is not OK is I hate binary distinctions, but that one's pretty clear to Alex G: Yeah, Jonathan: Me, is Alex G: And I think Jonathan: I? Alex G: And I think another one of those things, I mean, we talked about the the sexual harassment in the booth or wherever it may occur. But I think a lot of the other stories were also about the harassment and bullying in the universities during the education, you know, perpetrated by the teachers, by the lecturers. And I know of a few friends of mine who they're still pretty traumatized. Some of them, you know, it's not about necessarily giving feedback. It's just about well, I guess it's also about giving feedback in a way. But, you know, if somebody says, I don't even know why you're here, you don't speak a word of English, like you should leave and find another profession to an interpreter who's doing English, who I've worked with many times was actually really great then, you know, like that's not constructive criticism. That is not your job as a lecturer at university to tell somebody you don't speak in English, get out of here when they clearly do. And that's just one personal kind of anecdote of Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: A friend of mine and. Alex D: But. Alex G: Yeah, but. Alex D: Just two things on that, I mean, first of all, that that seemed to be a sort of accepted strategy or accepted thing to do for teachers and trainers of interpreting for a while is that you have to break them first and then you build them back up and turn them into proper interpreters, that kind of thing. And I'd like to believe it's a thing of the past, but maybe it isn't or not entirely. I'm not I'm not so sure. But I've also heard sort of the flip side of the story is that especially if you're in a university system that charges students very high fees and tuition, it can happen that you have a student who actually is very bad and has no interest in improving and won't listen to teacher's advice. It's probably it's very few people, I'm pretty sure. But they do exist. I know I know that for a fact. But you can't tell them and you can't kick them out. So it kind of cuts it kind of goes Jonathan: No, Alex D: Both ways. Jonathan: Can I say also, can we talk about the role of visiting interpreters when I was at university? We had to come in, we had a freelancer and we had a staffer from the institutions come in and the staff were from the institutions, came in, criticized the equipment. Maybe at the time it was created, certainly as no and said Alex D: It's Jonathan: To Alex D: Also Jonathan: Me Alex D: Not very helpful. Jonathan: Also not very helpful. But on the way out of class, this staffer and I'm very careful, not even together with whether they were male or female, because, you know, but this staffer said to me, I had another horrible session, you know, happens at uni and said, I don't think you're going to make it. You could you should look for another career. Oh, yeah. And if you want to survive as an interpreter, you need to get rid of your accent. Thankfully, couple of months later, we had a freelancer come in who I've since actually done a job where she was there and she was brilliant again, who said to me, you did a really great job. Your accent is an asset that are very few in fear of those who sound like you is going to make you unique. Great. Well done. I tell you the impact of that one person who said, actually, you've got something special that you can work with. You did a really good job. Go for it. We underestimate as interpreters and as colleagues, I think, how much the impact of one person can have on your career. If I hadn't had the support, you know, my master's degree was my first year of married life. You know, if I hadn't had a lot of support, that one sentence, you know, I think you should find another job that would have broken me. And I don't know how easily I would have covered. And yes, there are things you have to say to someone, look, you've got issues with your performance, but saying you have issues with your performance. And if I were you, I would work on X, Y and Z. That's totally different to go get another job. Alex G: But I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier, that it's, you know, the whole rite of passage thing, that you come into the into the profession, you're going to be working with someone. You technically take someone's job away. And I think this is also a story that I've heard from a lot of people at Alex D: It's Alex G: Universities. Alex D: About gatekeeping. Alex G: Exactly the gatekeeping thing that they say, oh, if Jonathan comes into the market, he might take one of my jobs. Jonathan, you should go and find another job. You're never going to make it just stop immediately. I've actually heard that from a few people who are now luckily successful interpreters in the marketplace. But, you know, their teachers were like, oh, you're never going to be good enough. You should just find another profession, give up right now. What are you even doing here? And we also had that a few times in the feedback in the survey that we got from the survey that we got that that happens a lot. And then I think especially if I don't know, I'm just this is going to be happening right now. But I could imagine this is particularly insidious in the institutions just because you work with the same people over and over again. So if somebody starts spreading rumors about you before you even head in there because they have connections, because they're training you wherever it may be at which university, and then they have connections to the European Union or to the United Nations, and then they start spreading rumors there. It's already kind of scorched earth before you even get there, at least in the freelance market, they don't know where you're going to end up. So they can taint the entire market of Germany, you know what I mean? Like, they might be able to spread rumors of Munich or Berlin or wherever, but they won't be able to spread the news in the entire country far and wide. Alex D: But see, that's one thing that annoys me so much about this, is you're never going to become an introvert or you might as well stop. Now is the job market is so big and there are so many different ways of being an interpreter and becoming an interpreter that I don't I don't know if anybody can really say you're never going to become an interpreter. Maybe maybe what they mean is you never become like me or, you know, you'll never work for the institutions or you'll you'll never make it on the private market or so, you know, why bother? Alex G: I don't think it's as constructive criticism, and that's the whole thing, Alex D: No, Alex G: Like, Alex D: Not at all. That's Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: What I'm saying. Alex G: You know, because I'm sure in certain instances there are and I think that's just a fact of life. There are people who are doing a university course on interpreting who will never make it as an interpreter because they're not good enough. But then there's a way of saying it. You know, I've taken the person to the side and saying, listen, let's try this, let's try that, you know, and you can try to encourage them still and kind of go on that path with them instead of just saying, your crap give up right now. Jonathan: To be fair, we had really, really good encouraging and their tutors that were just that one person, I am there where the if you only hear someone is different, if you hear someone over an entire two semesters and you realize by the end they either haven't put the work on or even if they put the work and you're not sure already, you can say, look, you can try as hard to as you like to to be an up to you to keep going if you want to hear some things that you can do constructively or alternatively, here are some other things you might be good at. That's an entirely different thing. And also, I would like us to bust the myth of you're taking someone's job because in the institutions that may be correct in the private Alex D: No, Jonathan: Market. Alex D: No, it isn't. Jonathan: Yeah, but, Alex D: It's. Jonathan: You know, in the private market is nonsense. One, because it's not your job. It's the job of whoever the consultant or the client gives a job to. You know, that's not your job. But also in the private market, there's such a thing as new clients, a new growth. And, you Alex D: And Jonathan: Know, Alex D: There's people retiring, Jonathan: There's Alex D: Moving Jonathan: Always Alex D: To other Jonathan: People Alex D: Professions, whatever, Jonathan: There's people Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: Retiring. Those companies going, I was talking to Henry Louis years and three or four years ago saying, as far as I'm concerned, the main growth market for conference InterpretBank and business interrupting are the people right now who can't even spell the word interpreter. And I'm really excited about the new generation of interpreters I'm seeing coming through, trained in many cases by incredible teachers because they're coming out of interruptive, not just as good interpreters, but some of them are fantastic at marketing as well. And the other people who are going to come out with their degree because they've been taught brilliantly, they're going to come out with a degree and they don't need necessarily they may not need us to give them much work after the first year or so because they'll be great. They'll be wedding clients that we didn't even think to reach. Alex D: Yeah, which is pretty cool. Jonathan: Yeah, it's incredibly cool, InterpretBank on the edge of kind of growing massively fast, fantastic. And, you know, if we can see to the new generation, no matter what you told your uni, if you passed with decent grades, you're good enough. If you know how to market, you're going to create your jobs. Just ignore the folks who are scared of you stealing their jobs because they want theirs in the first place. Just get on with it. Alex D: Maybe they're just afraid they're not good enough, you know, Jonathan: All of us against. Alex D: Maybe maybe it's just that. Alex G: Guys, I think this is the imposter syndrome that we're talking about here. Alex D: Oh, is this something that's sort of specific to the InterpretBank space or. Alex G: I don't know, I think that's controversial, Jonathan: It is get Alex G: But Jonathan: To the end of the recording. Alex G: But I think one of the one of the comments from the survey that I thought was really interesting is, you know, this person was bullied by a colleague and contradicted and corrected in a very harsh manner in front of other colleagues. And then the person wrote, I learned a lot about what not to do to colleagues from that experience. And I think that's very true, because once something like that happens to you, you're very conscious of it and of not doing it onto others. So I think just, you know, by hopefully not having to go through it first hand, but by knowing about it and talking about it openly to other colleagues, you can really kind of raise awareness, which is, I guess, also the whole point of, you know, stuff like me, too. And all these these I don't want to call it a movement because it should have happened a long time ago. And, you know, these societal changes that were luckily finally going through is creating Alex D: Painful Alex G: Awareness Alex D: As Alex G: In Alex D: They are. Alex G: Order to. Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Yeah, as painful as they are. But, you know, these are these are reckonings that need to happen. And I think it's creating that awareness for everybody, not just for the person who was affected by that situation so that everybody can look out for that particular toxic behavior and make sure that it doesn't happen again. I think going forward, hopefully we'll see a lot less of that. Jonathan: I want to through you guys, I was going to say two questions, but let's just start with one, because two is probably too many. If if I were to say to you guys, OK, we're starting to unearth this stuff and bringing in a terrible thing, we're becoming more aware of it. If someone were to say to you, OK, what do you think, you know, interpreting as a whole war on terrorism, on their own decisions, should people be making today or whenever they listen to this to try and reduce the amount of billing and interpreting? What can we wait for associations? But what can individuals do to reduce the amount of billing and interrupting? Alex D: I was actually afraid of asking the question myself, but I'm kind of glad you're bringing it up, but it's a tricky one. I think it really I mean, as stupid as it sounds, I think it really starts with being aware of it and sort of casting a wide net when it comes to looking for these, you know, bad for this bad behavior. And, yeah, just speaking up when you when you see it done to others, I guess that that would be a good step as well. Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: I don't Alex G: I Alex D: Know. Alex G: Think acknowledging it as it happens, if you're in the presence of it's acknowledging it right then and there and not just, you know, if I see Alex being bullied, I shouldn't just after the conference come out and be like, oh, by the way, I saw that that happened. Yeah, well, great. But I didn't say anything, so I didn't really help in that moment, you know, so, like, you need to confront it as it happens. But again, that's kind of a oh, I don't know how to put this, but, you know, again, it's because it's a question of of the approach because some people say don't address it as it happens openly in front of everybody. Take the person to the side and say, how do you want me to handle this? Should I say this openly to the other person? You know, there's a lot of different ways that individuals would want the situation handled with them for them. However, you want to say this. So I think it's delicate. I think I would prefer it if you see it. I don't know. I see Alex being bullied. I take him to the side in that moment. Whenever we have a second coffee break, say, hey, by the way, I saw that this and this happened. Are you OK? Do you want me to say anything? I'm happy to say something and then give them the choice, because I think yeah, I think that's important that the person has the choice if they want to help themselves, if they don't want to handle it, that's also an option for them. Jonathan: Well, there was a very famous advert from Gillette that came out, I think about a year ago, and I love that advert becoming more like lakes on Tumblr than ever before. And it was, if I remember, I really was just these kind of guys doing stuff. And when one of their friends did something stupid, one of them just saying, hey, that's not OK, I'm going to show you, you know, this is how we actually behave. And I wonder if certainly when it comes to bullying between colleagues with clients a little bit more delicate, but when it comes to bullying between colleagues, maybe maybe we could start a Troublesome Terps, hey, that's not OK campaign. And it doesn't have to be the person being bullied. And it really low pressure if you just hate someone that's not OK. That's not cool. Alex D: What was that ad about, just remind me briefly at Gillette. Was that a sexist thing or was it the opposite of that? Jonathan: It was a kind of sexual harassment thing, and they were I think they had some of it where the guys were behaving badly and some were they were doing the right thing. And it shouldn't have been controversial because I'm sorry if you find calling your friend, saying to your mates, it's not OK to sexual harassment problematic, then we need to talk. But, you know, having a here that's not OK, appropriate. You know, you don't have to call someone and say you're a loony. But I can I just say that I was really proud of Alexander Drechsel, I think about nine months ago where there was a very public instance of bullying and you did the equivalent of, hey, that's not OK. And I thought that's what I would like the whole profession to be, that, you know, you don't have to turn around and really call them names because that's just bullying the bully. That's just silly. But just having a smoke or we don't do that. I love hearing people talk about culture when they see the words. That's not something we do here are really powerful. Alex D: Oh, Jonathan: Just Alex D: Yes, Jonathan: Saying Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: That that's not how we do it here. Alex D: Yeah, I just have to say, I don't know if I would have done it alone, but I just want to say I was very grateful. I had two colleagues by my side, Yanacocha and Matthew Perry. So thanks, guys. Jonathan: Maybe we should want to hear that's not OK campaign. And the other question that I was going to ask is broader is we we have a way of dealing with bullying on the spot. But can you think of ways? Well, let's make it more positive. What would you like to see in the culture of interpreting the stuff that we can see in the stuff that is just assumptions and attitudes? What changes would you like to see of the culture of InterpretBank as a profession? Alex D: Big question. Alex G: Yeah, I'm not quite sure I completely understand where you're going with this. Alex D: Well, I think I do, but I think it's a very it's a very big question, like the. Jonathan: I'll give you a simple example, I. It sounds weird, but I would like to see the culture of InterpretBank changed to honor diversity more, not just diversity in terms of skin color or male or female, but diversity in terms of acceptable practices, diversity in terms of to me, if you interpret anywhere, you put an interpreter. And so that means that we should acknowledge diversity by valuing court interpreters, the same as with their conference interpreters, listening to their opinion on topics that we would normally think were just a province of conference interpreters. You know, I saw this recently with the whole video drafting thing for me, the experience that we should have been listening to, whether people have been doing that for years and other forms of interpreting. And so to have a culture in interpreting that says, you know, yes. That our recognized standards and as I say all the time, whenever I talk about the standards are important. Yes. We don't want to have people deliberately undercutting each other. I agree. But there are diversity of ways to attract clients and a diversity of clients that we work with that are a diversity of ways, of acceptable ways to set up an InterpretBank project. And so I would like to see us as part of a cultural shift that we start erasing some of the walls that we've set up between different forms of InterpretBank, different kinds of InterpretBank interpreting in different contexts. And that we honor the diversity of the profession, because I think if we have if we can do that, some of the bullying will go away because we'll go where, you know, I may not have interpreted it that way, but actually that's a perfectly OK way to interpret that or that's a perfectly OK way to react to that situation. So I would have done. But it's fine. And so that's the big culture that I would like to see. OK is linked to my most recent academic paper. You know, Alex D: That's OK. Jonathan: You can have that sometimes. Alex D: Yeah, yeah, I guess diversity would be would be very helpful, although I get the impression that it's also becoming less of an issue. I don't know. I mean, just purely from my personal experience, if I look at, let's just say more experienced colleagues, there's much more homogeneity to the people. When I you know, compared to let's call it the younger generation, you know, it's purely anecdotal, purely from my personal experience. So I think that's something that is already changing or about to change. That's not going to solve all the problems, you know, automatically. But I think it's a start. Um, yeah, but I find it difficult to to give an all encompassing answer to the question, I think. Alex G: I think mine would be about gossiping, because the thing is, you were Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Talking about that at the beginning, Jonathan, know we use our words all the time. I think sometimes we just talk too much, especially about each other. It's I mean, let's be honest. Sometimes it's just fun talking about on the person, you know, talking trash if Alex D: Drechsel. Alex G: They've you off some way, you know, like, it's just fun, Alex D: Anna. Alex G: But you have to keep it light. But some people just really go in on other people behind their backs. Alex D: Yeah, they just Alex G: And Alex D: Jumped at the occasion, right? Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: Yeah, yeah. Alex G: It's like, by the way, did you know this? Did you hear that? Oh, my God. How could they even and that is not only unfair to that person, but it's also unfair to to you in that instance, if they're venting to you or if they're gossiping to you because it puts you in the uncomfortable position. You know, you might like that other colleague. You might not agree with what they're saying. What do you do to you cause a conflict that's in that moment? Do you go to that other colleague that they were gossiping about? You know what I mean? It's a very it creates this kind of whirlwind of tomfoolery. Alex D: Nice one. Alex G: And, you know, most of the time it's unnecessary because what Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: Has what good has gossip ever done? Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: It's not a productive thing to do. Alex D: Totally not, yeah, and I mean, what I tried to do in those situations is, I mean, sometimes I just I just let it go, which is probably not not great. And I'll just, you know, think to myself, yeah, I'll just let them let them talk. And sometimes I'll say, oh, no, that's that's not how I sort of met that person. I have a complete I got a completely different impression from that person. It's interesting that you would sort of see it that way and that surprisingly often that will kind of shut the whole thing down. Interestingly, you know, if you just refuse to play along, if you just block it off or just say, oh, interesting, no, that's not at all my impression of that person, that that can be surprisingly effective. And I guess it's kind of the equivalent of saying that's not what we do around here, which I really Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Like. Alex G: But I think that's a more slippery slope in that instance, if you say I have a completely different impression of that person because that runs the risk of that. The gossiper putting you in the same basket as the gossipy because they're thinking, oh, Alex D: But there's Alex G: Birds Alex D: Nothing Alex G: Of a feather, Alex D: I can do about that, Alex G: No, Alex D: Right? Alex G: There's nothing you Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Can do about that. But, you know, that's why I think you that is a reason why you would possibly not want to do that. All I'm saying is it's a very complex situation and it can there's complications, is all I'm saying. Alex D: Yes, Jonathan: With Alex D: It's complicated. Jonathan: With gossip, with gossip, being one of the seven deadly sins is something talked about in churches, and I remember a preacher once saying the best way to kill gossip is to find the nicest, most complimentary thing you can find to say about the person they're gossiping about. I can I don't think I've interrupted and I've come across interpretor gossip that much. Alex D: Bless your heart. Alex G: Oh, no way you're being serious. Jonathan: Certainly not on the job, I've come across gossip between people in the sector and more than once I remember I was at an event, I have to be very careful because it's not fair. But I was at an event and someone started gossiping to me about, funnily enough, a colleague. I really admire them, really liked. And so I said they said whatever the person said all, but did you hear what he ate and such and such and how great job that they just looked at me like I'd grown horns over my head and moved away someone else. And this is often delicate, especially if you don't really know the quality, and one thing that I do want honestly say to people is my principle is I will take people as I find them. And, you know, I will second hand stories mean nothing to me, except obviously in the case of, you know, if I'm the consultant or when there's been something serious. But, you know, if it's happened to the person, you know, it's different. Referencing so-and-so abused me. So-and-so hurt me. That's different to did you hear about Fred Jones who did that to someone else? That that's that's nonsense and gossip when it's just about. Did you hear the little scuttlebutt about so-and-so that is like does it involve you? Do you need to know Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: Then to do it? Alex D: I mean, one thing I really hate about gossip is that, you know, even if you just sort of absorb it and, you know, you kind of know it's probably not true. It's probably way overblown and exaggerated. Alex G: It's festering. Alex D: Still sort of works its way into your subconsciousness. And then it's always sort of at the back of your mind what that awful person said about that other person that you're actually kind of like and think is sort of nice and it's still nagging at you. Alex G: That's inception Alex D: That's the worst. Alex G: At its best. Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: It's it's almost like Inception. Yeah, exactly. Alex G: Well, except it's not Inception. They're like, hey, by the way, let me tell you this, it's like super Alex D: It's it's Alex G: Overt inception. Alex D: Not subtle at all, no. Alex G: Yeah. Jonathan: It's not Inception, it's deception. Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: Oh, Mike, drop. Alex D: Nice one. Jonathan: Can I just say let's squash any rumors about me that might be going on right now? I have no plans to invade the entirety of InterpretBank, at Alex D: Ok. Jonathan: Least not I'm prepared to create in public. Alex D: You heard it here first, Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Guys and gals, Alex G: Breaking news. Alex D: Should we stick with the gossip button and ask people to tone it down a little bit? Jonathan: So we've got a few things here, we've got Alex D: I'd say that, hey, this Jonathan: That Alex D: Is not OK. Jonathan: That does not OK here and that's not OK here, that's not OK, I think is a good place to stop. And yet gossip is bullying. Whether the press is in the room or not, they don't have to be in the room to be bullied. And yeah, I would quite happily like maybe we should have like a hashtag here. That's not OK. And, you know, if you're listening to this, feel free. You can borrow the hey, that's not OK thing. And if we have to make a campaign, that's totally OK. Alex D: We Jonathan: That Alex D: Will Jonathan: Is OK. Alex G: Hey, Alex D: When Alex G: That is OK. Alex D: We're not afraid to use it, I mean, John Oliver doesn't use hashtags every week, so Alex G: Yeah, quite Alex D: Why shouldn't Alex G: Successfully. Alex D: We? Jonathan: And also with.