63 Interpreter Networks
Alex D: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome. This is episode 63 of the Troublesome Terps, the podcast about things that keep interpreters up at night. And today we are going to be networking quite a bit because we will be talking about interpreter networks and other ways and means for interpreters to get together, to network and do other fun things. And for that, we have three great guests and we'll get to them in just a minute. But first of all, I want to introduce my lovely favourite co-host, the other Alex on the show: Alexander Gansmeier. Good evening. How are you? 
Alex G: [00:00:32] Oh, good evening, Alex. It's so great to be here with my favorite co-host and... 
Alex D: [00:00:36] ...totally stealing Sarah's thunder. 
Alex G: [00:00:38] Totally stealing Sarah's thunder, but it's just really funny, you know, when everybody else is not around, you can always say that. And then when other people are around...
Monika Ott: [00:00:44] You know this is being recorded, Alex?
Alex G: [00:00:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's in on the joke, so it's fine. And then Jonathan probably doesn't even have time to listen what, with all the kids and stuff, so we can always make up an excuse. 
Alex D: [00:00:54] The favorite co-host thing is kind of a bit at this point. 
Alex G: [00:00:56] It is, it's sort of a bit, it's almost like announcing  transitions and segueways. 
Alex D: [00:01:01] So in case you're tuning in for the first time, that that does still happen, Alexander is a freelance interpreter based in Germany. I'm a staff interpreter here in Brussels speaking in a private capacity because as we like to say, Alex, that's all we got. Right? 
Alex G: [00:01:14] Yeah, that's all I got. 
Alex D: [00:01:15] Please do tell us about the guests we have on tonight, Alex. 
Alex G: [00:01:18] Sure! So tonight we actually only have two of the hosts of the four Troublesome Terps, but to make up for that, we have four, three lovely guests with us and to kick things off in alphabetical order from Calliope, we have Louis Jarvis. Louise, you are coming to us from Oxford, is that right?
Louise Jarvis: [00:01:36] That's exactly right. Yes. I'm joining you from Oxford in the UK. And I'm delighted to be here. Thanks very much for having me on.
Alex G: [00:01:42] It is a pleasure to have you, I'm sure it's going to be a fabulous night and I'm sure we're going to overuse the word network or networking to some degree.
Alex D: [00:01:50] Well, that's the idea, right? 
Alex G: [00:01:51] Yeah. That is sort of the idea. And then from, let's see if I get this right, congrestolken?
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:01:57] Excellent.
Alex G: [00:01:58] How did I do? 
Alex D: [00:01:58] Getting better every time, right?
Alex G: [00:02:00] Getting better every time.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:02:01] With flying colours.
Alex G: [00:02:02] We have Sybelle van Hal-Bock from between The Hague and Amsterdam. So in the lovely Netherlands. How are you? 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:02:10] In the pretty town of Haarlem.
Alex G: [00:02:13] Oh, I love Haarlem. I actually stayed there last year. That was my last vacation, you know…
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:02:18] Pre-lockdown? 
Alex G: [00:02:19] Pre-Lockdown. Pre-Corona. Yes, 
Alex D: [00:02:21] And you've probably been to the other Harlem as well, on the other side of the Atlantic. 
Alex G: [00:02:25] I have. 
Alex D: [00:02:26] Ah, see, there you go. 
Alex G: [00:02:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. With my better half. And then last, but certainly not least, uh, my, uh, beloved colleague Monika Ott from "Konferenzdolmetscher Deutschland", which is "Conference Interpreters Germany", for those who don't speak… 
Alex D: [00:02:38] Which is a network. 
Alex G: [00:02:39] ...the melodic... Yeah. Yeah. She's a, she's a great networker at that as well. So Monika, welcome! I heard you are coming to us not from Hamburg today, but from the lovely and glamorous town of Fulda.
Monika Ott: [00:02:51] The beautiful town of Fulda.
Alex D: [00:02:53] Yeah, familiar to all ICE travelers in Germany. 
Alex G: [00:02:58] Okay. Yes. So those are our three fabulous colleagues who we're going to be chatting about, um, all things interpreter networks. But before we get into that, let me just say at the very top of the episode that interpreter networks are something very different to interpreter associations or, you know, like it's nothing like AIIC or like the ITI. So it's not just something that you can send an application to and become a member of the network. 
Monika Ott: [00:03:20] No, you could! Should! 
Alex G: [00:03:22] Well, it depends on, it depends on the network, but I think the idea is more to form your own networks with the right colleagues. But I think that's an interesting discussion that we're probably going to get into, um, throughout the episode. But if you want to find out more about interpreting associations where you can simply send an application to, we have an episode for that, and I'm sure we're going to link to those in... There's an ep for that. There's an episode for that. Um, we're going to link to that in the show notes, but Alex, why don't you kick us off with a round of questions? Rapid fire questions. 
Alex D: [00:03:51] Yeah, exactly. Um, before we dive into the, you know, various kinds of networks that exist, because there can be, they can take different shapes, which we, which is why we have, uh, representatives from three different networks, um, today. But of course we want to know just a little bit about the personal background and, or let's say the individual background rather, uh, you don't have to be too specific about your personal life of course, but we'd like to know, since you all come from different markets, we'd like to know a little bit about that. And maybe we can start with, um, Sybelle here. So maybe just tell us very briefly about, sort of, what a normal day looks like for you. What kind of interpreting, um, you do in the Netherlands or elsewhere for that matter? 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:04:28] Wow. Um, well, um, congrestolken focuses on the private market, obviously. Um, most of our work is in either in the Hague, maybe Rotterdam or Amsterdam. So we have lots of big clients, lots of multinationals. We do lots of shareholders' meetings for all the Dutch multinationals or the big multinationals, in fact, um, listed at the stock exchange here. So we do that. We, um, we have a large European institution as a client whose name I'm not gonna mention. And we have lots of big law firms. We do a lot of patent cases. The court in the Hague, just to give you a couple of examples. And then of course, all the conferences and things, uh, we've been around for such a long time, 45 years already.
Alex G: [00:05:16] Wow.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:05:16] So, um, venerable age. 
Alex D: [00:05:21] Indeed. 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:05:21] Not me, of course, not me!
Alex D: [00:05:25] Yeah. With different generations of interpreters, we, we would assume, but, um, yeah, definitely. We can, we can, uh, that's definitely something we can get into like how the, how the networks came, came into existence as it were, but, um, maybe continuing on with Louise, um, you said you were based in Oxford, but I suppose a lot of your work is probably in London and maybe other cities around the UK or elsewhere. 
Louise Jarvis: [00:05:49] Yes, that's right. Yeah. I'm based in, in fact, my domicile is London though, I live in Oxford, which is about an hour to the Northwest of London. Um, as a conference interpreter, I don't do that much work in the UK, actually. I organize here, but I have, I'm a pure English booth. I'm working from French, German, and Spanish into English. Um, and as you know, there's not so much work for pure English booths on the private market. Um, so as a freelance conference interpreter, I find myself working in the European institutions, for the European Patent Office, um, and other, um, institutions, um, more than, much more than on the private market. But my consultancy work is obviously focused very much on the private market. And I would say that we have at Calliope, we have a range of clients. Um, very similar to the range described by Sybelle. So we're  talking, um, NGOs, we're talking institutions, we're talking corporate large corporate clients as well, a real range. And I suppose the difference, but we'll come on to that later, is that we're not based in one market, we're  based around the world.
Alex D: [00:07:00] Interesting. So it's already a slightly different perspective, so something we can explore as well. Uh, and lastly, uh, Monika and we should probably, um, have a disclaimer at this point is that Alex and Monika are actually in the same network, but before we get into that as well, Monika, tell us a little bit about your interpreting background, please. 
Monika Ott: [00:07:17] Um, Mother tongue is German. I work with English and Swedish, both are my B languages. Um, same range of clients, I guess it applies for the entire KDD network. Uh, and by the way, whenever I say KDD it's for the sake of word economy, I mean Konferenzdolmetscher Deutschland because it's quite a mouthful. So KDD's range of clients is what you just described. Our clients are mainly German, I would say, but we do get international inquiries every now and then, which we'll of course take on, but we work. I work mainly in Germany. I travel for my Swedish assignments. Also mostly within Germany. My domicile is Hamburg. I mostly work in Hamburg. Um, and that's it.
Alex D: [00:08:04] And I'm assuming Swedish is, is a smaller part of your work. It seems like a very exotic language for the German market as far as I can tell. 
Monika Ott: [00:08:10] 15, 10% of my assignments.
Alex D: [00:08:12] Yeah. Okay, great. Um, so I don't know, Alex, did you want, do you want to get into your network first and how that came to be? I think it's, uh, it's definitely not as old as congrestolken. 
Alex G: [00:08:24] No, it's actually quite fresh. So, you know, I think, I think already from the introduction round, we can tell that we've picked our fabulous guests for a reason because they all kind of have different approaches or all the networks have different approaches. Um, and if we can just start with the, with the shameless self first, uh, approach, not self plug, but you know, the self first approach, it was actually Monika whose idea it was because Monika, if you've ever met her is an endless source of energy and inspiration. And so...
Monika Ott: [00:08:55] Thank you.
Alex G: [00:08:55] She started out the network in Hamburg with her colleagues. So they basically already had a team of two established in Hamburg, and then she kind of reached out to some, um, colleagues, most of them fabulous. And then there's me. And she was like, should we? 
Alex D: [00:09:09] Wow. That's a humblebrag. 
Alex G: [00:09:10] Should we get, should we start this whole thing about, um, you know, forming a larger network in different cities across Germany and cover the whole country in that way. And so we kind of did it in like the regions of the wind, like the directions of the wind. So we've got the north, which is Hamburg, and then we sort of have east-ish with Berlin and then we have, uh, Cologne/Düsseldorf, which is in the west, which is quite close to Brussels. And then where,
Monika Ott: [00:09:38] Alex, it's Bonn/Düsseldorf, it's not Cologne.
Alex G: [00:09:39] Sorry, Bonn/Düsseldorf. If Karen hears this, she's going to me. 
Alex D: [00:09:41] We'll edit this out. 
Alex G: [00:09:42] We'll edit this out. We'll fix it in post. And then, um, yeah, and then there is, there is, uh, myself and Nora right here down in Munich, in the south. And it's quite fresh. So the whole thing was actually brought underway, I think, at the end of 2019. Monika, correct me if I'm wrong. And then in 2020 during Corona, we kind of use the time pretty well.
Monika Ott: [00:10:04] Well, there is a long version and there is a short version.
Alex G: [00:10:09] Let's do the mid-sized version!
Monika Ott: [00:10:11] Oh, well, it actually started in 2015, um, when Anja and I decided to, to do something together and to conquer our piece of the interpreting pie. And, uh, I had just bought the URL address "Konferenzdolmetscher-Hamburg". And we decided to use that our joint presence, but then in 2018, we've realized that we well, whilst our website was a solid five, we wanted it to be a 10 because we are quite modest. So we realized we needed a corporate identity. We needed corporate colors, a logo, professional pictures, the whole shebang. But that revelation coincided with the market study conducted by the German AIIC region and the VKD, the German association of conference interpreters. And they wanted to find out how the German interpretation market was developing because a lot had been based on gut feeling and assumptions and no hard facts. And one of the conclusions was that, at least it was my conclusion, that companies want to work with companies. And companies tend to believe that a one woman or one man company cannot do what an agency or network can do. And I don't want to discuss if that's true, if that's false, but Anja and I, we said, okay, let's be bigger. And then we thought about whom we wanted to grow bigger with. And then in 2019, I pitched the idea to our now fellow KDD colleagues. And they all said yes, and they all wanted to grow big with us. That's the longer version.
Alex G: [00:11:50] Which, to be fair, I kind of forced her hand because I had already bought the URLs for Munich.
Monika Ott: [00:11:55] Yeah.
Alex D: [00:11:56] Okay. 
Monika Ott: [00:11:57] I would've asked you anyhow. 
Alex D: [00:12:02] I think that's, that's how these projects tend, tend to happen. Yes. You buy the URL, but, um, what I would I be interested, uh, in as somebody who's not a freelance interpreter is whether there are different. I mean, I'm pretty sure there are different types of interpreter networks and that's something we found out when we sort of invited people onto the show. So maybe Louise and Sybelle, maybe you can dig a little bit into that because I think that there are differences between congrestolken and, um, Calliope in terms of, uh, are they networks of interpreters or they networks of consultant interpreters. And maybe we need to explain what a consultant interpreter is as well. Um, for those who, who may not know, uh, yeah, Louise, why don't you go first? 
Louise Jarvis: [00:12:41] Okay. Yes. Thank you. I really liked what Monika said about there being strength in numbers. So that's certainly something that all networks, um, share, I think. Um, so yes we are. Um, Calliope is a global network of 24 independent consultant interpreters. Um, so there's a few key words in there, which we can certainly unpack. Um, I think that one key word is that we're independent. So that means that we each have our own business structure. Um, um, but we're all members of the same network, the same Calliope network and Calliope itself is not a commercial entity. Um, I imagine that some people would think it is, but it actually isn't, it's just a network. It's an association actually, strictly speaking. Um, the other key word is global. Um, so we operate all over the world and, um, countries where we don't have a resident member are covered by a member in a nearby country. So that's definitely one of our aims is to provide global coverage because we think that's what clients want. And I can say a bit more about that later, if you like, um, and to go back to being independent, Where we're all fully independent. We, um, we run our own shows if you like. So there are no rules or instructions, um, at central level, at Calliope level for how to work with our local clients. Um, we share the same values, but not necessarily the same business practices. And so what unites us, and I imagine these are values that, um, my colleagues would espouse as well, is what unites us is the shared desire to provide high quality interpreting solutions with good and safe working conditions for the interpreters that we employ. And, you know, we trust each other and we support each other as best we can to achieve that goal.
Alex D: [00:14:30] Great. Thank you. And what's your take, um, Sybelle on this? Um, 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:14:35] Well, congrestolken is different in that sense, uh, in the sense that we have an office, we are a business. We have, um, um, we have staff, we have 2.5, three, maybe three FTEs, uh, now working full time. And that is because we have a big client in, in, uh, in the Hague, for instance, that really needs that office structure kind of approach. Um, but we have 25 members, different age structures, uh, um, and I think mainly we serve clients that organize or those that are looking for a conference interpretation in the Netherlands. Of course we do have longstanding clients that we serve if they have meetings abroad, but it's mainly based in the Netherlands. I think, I think that's the difference and all, uh, almost all our 25 members that live in the Netherlands. There are a couple of members that have moved abroad, but still are members. And, um, we're very grateful for their support. So I think that's the difference. 
Alex D: [00:15:44] And would you say that that was the initial motivation is to have staff and, you know, secretarial staff to take care of the things that maybe some freelance interpreters don't enjoy doing? I don't know what writing invoices maybe. I don't know 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:15:58] Yes exactly. That's how it started in 1976, Henri Methorst was, uh, the founding father. Um, he passed, um, a couple of years ago. Anyway, he set up, um, the secretariat, the congrestolken secretariat in those days in Amsterdam, the Prinsengracht so the, the old city center, it was a wonderful, wonderful place. And that was precisely to serve AIIC interpreters, all AIIC interpreters at the time that  lived in the Netherlands, they all became actually, they all became members of congrestolken, that changed over time and with the big institutions, uh, the, um, in the Hague that meant that we all of a sudden had AIIC staff living in the Hague and not on the private market, but in those days, all the AIIC interpreters were or became members of congrestolken. So we covered that and the secretariat would indeed be a secretariat. It would find new business, do all the invoicing and all the secretariat work. Yeah.
Alex D: [00:16:59] And I think the whole concept of the secretariat is something that can be found in other countries as well, like in Belgium or in France, notably. Um, although it's not, I don't know if there's one in Germany. I don't think there is. 
Alex G: [00:17:10] No, I don't think there is. I actually discussed it with a colleague in Munich at some point a couple of years ago, just because I organized a big conference in Paris. And I found the concept for me as the organizing interpreter, a secretariat just, it just was a breeze to work with them because, you know, I said, I need this and that language. And they just said, sure, no problem at all. And I said, oh, thank you, Jesus. This is so easy now. Um, and I mean the same with Sybelle, like we've known each other from a job and I've worked with congrestolken and all of their colleagues are just lovely, very qualified, absolutely brilliant people. And yeah. Well, the ones that I worked with anyway, but I think there's definitely something to be said for a secretariat for having that structure, but I'm sure the concept wouldn't be for everyone because I know a couple of colleagues who just want to have everything under their control very minutely. Like they want things done their way and they don't want to give out anything to anyone else. And I think, for example, for a colleague like that a secretariat of might not necessarily be the right fit, but, um, I think it's a great, it's a great concept, but... I actually wanted to ask about secretary is another, just kind of come, come up. And naturally I wanted to ask about it later because I actually did want to say, and I think it also goes for congrestolken, you said it? And then I think it also goes for Calliope, and I know it goes for, for KDD that, uh, all the members are AIIC interpreters and  all three networks are actually AIIC-accredited consultant interpreter networks in that, in that sense that if you go on the website and you go on, um, consultant, you can actually find all of the three networks in that drop-down list. And I was wondering why all three networks felt the need to, to get accredited as consultant consultant networks. Like why is, I mean, I know why we did it at KDD, but maybe it's still an interesting discussion to have. So what's the, what's the benefit here? What's the added bonus? Maybe Louise. Do you want to go first? Because I feel like for you guys, it's a very unique setup because you are global.
Louise Jarvis: [00:19:07] Yeah, that's right. I mean, our AIIC membership's really important to us. We are all AIIC members and we recruit, we try to recruit AIIC interpreters. So I mean, 90 some percent of the interpreters we recruit across our 24 members will be AIIC members. It's really important to us. It's a mark of quality. I think we see it as important to join the, um, consultant interpreters groups, so formerly BizOrg, because we want also to contribute to the global community of consultant interpreters. I mean, we're in three different networks and we can already see that we're set up in really different ways and there'll be advantages and disadvantages to those different setups. But, you know, we have a huge amount in common. And I think, um, I mean, one of the main things we have in common is that we are conference interpreters and we're consultant interpreters. And that's just, um, it's key to success because we understand what it takes to organize a multi-lingual event. We know what it's like to be in the booth. We work alongside colleagues. So we know our colleagues, we know who we're recruiting. Um, and we would never recruit an interpreter and ask them to do something that we wouldn't be prepared to do ourselves. And that's the difference between the kind of service that our three networks is offering and what an agency, which is a pure intermediary, might be able to offer. So we know the business much better, and we recognize that we have that. We share that, um, we have that in common with, um, across other AIIC consultant interpreters.
Alex G: [00:20:46] Absolutely. And I'm guessing for you, Sybelle, it's probably something very similar in the sense that the secretariat at obviously, well, actually, I'm not sure. Let me ask you, so when you guys get a request, cause you said congrestolken is a business entity. So does the secretariat then take on the, the consultancy work or is it someone of you gets assigned to a certain client and consults?
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:21:07] Mostly it's the staff, we have two permanent staff, two FTEs, and then we have, uh, one of our members, actually the chair of the board of congrestolken, who's helping out at the office right now. Um, so there's always, um, there's always an, uh, consultant interpreter, an actual conference interpreter available to, to help out. But the, uh, but the staff we have at the office, uh, they're excellent. And they have years and years of experience, so they can, they know how to set up a team, they know which questions to ask. And so they, yeah, they, um, they actually do an excellent job for us, but there are always, you know, these very complicated, uh, conferences or high security conferences, or now with remote interpretation, the minute COVID, uh, kicked in um, some of us, just a couple of us started working with remote interpretation and sorting everything out and making overviews and we had, we have it still have to, from time to time, explain things to the ladies at the office so that they can relay that to clients. So then of course, yes, they, they get a request for remote interpretation. They will check with us with dedicated interpreters who have more experience in doing that. So there's always someone in the background to help out, but they're pretty self-sufficient.
Alex G: [00:22:29] That's amazing. That's great. 
Alex D: [00:22:31] But I wanted to step in here, um, because, um, Alex, you, you mentioned the A word, agency, um, and I was wondering whether you could speak a bit to that. Monika, maybe you can do that as well is to, um, because you know, for some people, it, it may sound like, well, isn't that more or less what an agency does? And I was just wondering whether you could maybe explain a little bit, um, why an interpreter network is not an agency or where the differences are and Sybelle has alluded to some points, but maybe we can drill down a little bit. 
Alex G: [00:23:01] I think Monika looks like she has a great answer for that.
Monika Ott: [00:23:05] Well, Louise said it so nicely: because we know the business and I would never send a colleague to an assignment that I wouldn't do myself.
Alex D: [00:23:16] And, um, is that because - I'm just playing the devil's advocate here - why, why don't, why aren't agencies a good alternative? Why would you say they don't know the market as well, Is that because they also do translation or other things or because they do all languages, all topics or what's, what's the issue exactly? Or is it really about the personal relationships that you have to colleagues; recommendations, that kind of thing? Uh, agencies can't do that?
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:23:44] Well, as Louise just said, I think for us, quality is paramount. Quality, quality, quality. And I think for agencies, maybe it's also a business proposition. Um, and for us, we don't make a profit, not at all. So we're there to provide decent working conditions and decent pay to the interpreter. And the office gets a fee and the interpreter pays the office a fee. So the client pays the office and the interpreter pays the office a fee. And that way, we can keep an office and staff. So we're not in it to make a profit. And so we're only interested in our reputation and sending the right interpreter to the job. So I think that is one of the elements that really makes us stand out with respect to agencies.
Alex G: [00:24:35] But I think a really important question or a really interesting question, at least to me, if Sybelle for you guys is when you communicate with clients, do they perceive, how do they perceive you? Do they, are they aware that you are a secretariat in that particular term? Do they think you're a company? Like how does that, how does that communication with the clients work?
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:24:51] I think they think we're a company and we have to explain time and time again, that we stand out that we're different, that we're not the run of the mill, uh, agency. And that quality is extremely important to us. For clients, you know, they don't really know what interpretation is or not. They may not be that interested. So this is something you have to insist on time and time again and I find very difficult to get across and very difficult to, to really stress that we are different because of our values and because of our focus on quality, that's very difficult and I'm sure my colleagues would agree with me that it's very difficult to convince a client.
Louise Jarvis: [00:25:31] Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, if you're a client who doesn't know anything about interpreting and you Google, um, interpreters, or probably translators, you're, you're going to land on several agencies. That's what's going to come up first probably, although we, we work very hard to ensure that we come up. Um, but probably a load of agencies will come up and that's, for a client who knows nothing about the service that they're requesting, that's very attractive because they think... It goes back to what Monika said at the beginning, they think a large company will be able to provide what I need. You go to an agency website. And it says, you know, we cover a hundred languages and we've got a thousand, we've got thousands of freelance interpreters on our books. But the difference is that when that agency, um, quotes for the job, they're not going to ask the detailed questions that will enable them to provide something that's really tailor-made. And they're not going to know their interpreters as well as we know the interpreters we recruit. And that's crucial because it's not just about, does someone have a, have they said that they have a specialism in finance or, um, what their languages are. It's also maybe about what kind of a person they are. Um, are they suitable for this particular meeting where they're going to have to talk to the client or sit next to somebody in a meeting room and whisper for them or, or accompany them on a trip or whatever,  in pre COVID days, um, you know, there's all sorts of different characteristics that you take into account when you're selecting the right person for the job. And that's something that an agency, I don't think can't come do. I think that's the difference, but as Sybelle said, the challenge is getting that message across.
Alex G: [00:27:14] But, you know what the ironic thing is as well about agencies at the end of the day, if they end up getting the job from the client, it's still going to be one project manager working on the thing and the whole concept of, oh, well, they have this big organization that takes care of this huge assignment that we have falls completely flat because it's just one person dealing with the whole and that's oftentimes, yeah, that's a little frustrating, cause I'm like, well, we can do that. 
Monika Ott: [00:27:36] Try to reach them after 6:00 PM.
Alex G: [00:27:38] Yeah, completely, completely.
Alex D: [00:27:41] Interesting. I was just wondering what that, the whole idea of networks, I think, or a secretariat is, um, is really specific to conference interpreting. And agencies probably do anything and everything, uh, in some cases, um, but they, they might be catering more towards legal or, I don't know, other settings, um, is that an overgeneralization or, um... At least from what you've been describing, it sounds like you're really very much focusing on conference interpreting only. 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:28:09] no, I was just going to say that we do do translations as well. We, um, but usually we offer translations to existing clients or existing clients ask us to do translations and we do do that. So that's a small part of the business that we do, but for the rest, it's just conference interpreting.
Louise Jarvis: [00:28:27] Yes. And, um, our 24 members obviously have their own businesses and their own business models. And some of them have larger businesses than others, larger business structures than others. Um, some of them have paid staff, some of them don't and some of our members provide translation and related services. Um, some of them find that that helps them to retain clients and helps them to provide, um, uh, a full service, I suppose, which... I don't do that myself, but I can see the point of it. I think if you're organizing a conference and you, you need the PowerPoints translated and the interpreters, then if someone will offer you a full package without you having to go to different providers, then yes, that's an advantage.
Alex D: [00:29:13] That's very attractive, obviously. Yeah. But, um, so I mean, for, for congrestolken, we've, we've seen that there's a long tradition and kind of a very clear idea of what should be done jointly by the entity, whatever it may be. But, um, for KDD and Calliope, I'm wondering, how do you decide on what you wanted to do? Um, what do you want to do together where you want to pool resources? Um, I dunno is it marketing, for example, because I mean, most of us will know the videos that, um, Calliope has been producing in the past, which are very good. I mean, how do you decide on these sort of things that you want to, where you want to cooperate?
Monika Ott: [00:29:50] I think it's a work in progress, creativity in progress. Um, sometimes we work at different speeds, which is fine. Sometimes someone is more creative or more daring and the others are not, which is also fine. I don't believe that you have to march in lockstep all the time when you form a network, yet it does take more time to form an opinion or to draw some kind of conclusion. But that's it. I believe our network is maybe a network of can-do's instead of must-do's. So someone has an idea or someone needs help, um, the others are on speed dial, even unannounced phone calls sometimes. Um, we have Slack discussions.
Alex G: [00:30:34] Those are crazy, people still do that. Unannounced phone calls! 
Monika Ott: [00:30:38] I know we have Slack discussions, WhatsApp messages. The true benefit for me is honest support, um, neutral support, target oriented support. I mean, when coronavirus hit us, we really rode that RSI wave together, some from a hub, some from at home, but we learned together, we researched together and we did things that an association could not have done. That quickly, at least. So KDD came into being in early 2020, which was bad timing in a way, but it was also good timing because we helped each other out tremendously. And it was, for me, it was good for morale because when all of those assignments, well, vanished into thin air, I felt like I had a business going, thanks to KDD. Um, but we don't have a hierarchy. Um, and just because the idea originated in Hamburg does not mean that we have a bigger say in anything. Um, no one had to bring in past clients, no one had to buy themselves in. Anja and I didn't even want money for the investments that we had made earlier because it was like a take it or leave it option because forming an opinion takes more time. So Anja and I decided to, to choose our KDD website together and then present it to the rest of our now KDD colleagues, which I still believe was a wise decision because otherwise it would have taken ages. And just because eight people have eight different  opinions.
Alex G: [00:32:14] Death by committee as they call it, right?
Monika Ott: [00:32:17] So the benefit for me is support, honest support, like speed dial support.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:32:23] Can I ask, how many members do you have?
Monika Ott: [00:32:25] We have eight, in four different locations. It's still, it's a tiny group, but that was also one of... 
Alex G: [00:32:32] It's a baby network.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:32:33] No, but that's good because, no.
Monika Ott: [00:32:36] I mean, Anja and I, we were super strict who could join. Inverted commas.
Alex D: [00:32:42] An exclusive club. 
Alex G: [00:32:43] We made the cut.
You should've seen the gauntlet they put us through. Like American ninja warrior is nothing.
Monika Ott: [00:32:48] Well, we had a scoring system. No, like we had some criteria, like they had to be...
Alex G: [00:32:55] Pros, cons.
Monika Ott: [00:32:57] ...nice and friendly, flash a smile every once in a mile, that helps, um, be an AIIC member, even though I'm not saying that only an AIIC interpreter is a good interpreter. But it was a USP for us. Um, so yeah, same approach to professionalism, same can-do mentality. And we wa we also wanted to be transparent about whom we wanted to ask right from the start. So someone could have said no to Alex, didn't happen. And then we would have had to decide whom to prefer. But, um, we did not end up in that situation. Um, and we didn't want locations to be too close geographically because we did not want to cannibalize each other and have unnecessary intra-network competition. So we said, we start with four locations and if there should be a fifth or a sixth, then everyone had to, everyone has to be okay with that.
Alex G: [00:33:56] Process. It's not like we had to just, you know, spring up all over Germany overnight. So if there should ever be a fifth or sixth, that's fine. But, um, I have so many questions for, for, for different, for different people here. And I actually want to throw it to Louise for a hot second, because I'm really curious, uh, Monika just talked about how they pick the people for the network. And I can really say pick because it's, you know, Monika started the whole thing with Anja, her colleague, and they kind of hand picked who they wanted. Now for Calliope, you guys are global and I'm not sure if you personally met all the different members across the world and how you make sure that the person you have in, let's say, Australia agrees with the person in South America and how you even find those people to make sure you're on the same page. I find that, how did that go?
Louise Jarvis: [00:34:46] Those are really good questions. I mean, I agree with Monika, that small is beautiful, we're relatively small, too. 24 isn't it's not large for covering the whole of the planet and we want to remain small because we we've built up trust over the years and trust is fragile. We need to nurture that. We need to protect it. And it's only in that way that you get, um, the major benefit, which as Monika said is honest support. So I liked that phrase very much. So how do we ensure we're on the same page we do, um, while pre COVID, we were meeting once a year face-to-face for three days typically. Um, I think our best attended meeting was in Oxford. Um, in trying to think which year it was 2019, I think January, 2019, we met in Oxford and we had 22 out of the 24 members in attendance, which is really not bad when you think how scattered we are. And the only, there's only one member of the network whom I haven't, whom I've yet to meet. So I've met everybody, um, everybody else, which is great. We talk a lot. Um, our WhatsApp group is never silent. There's always something going on. Um, and we are now discovering Zoom, I suppose, you know, we're zooming like everybody else. So we're actually meeting and talking to each other much more and that ties in with something else Monika said, she said, we rode the RSI wave together. Um, so did we. It brought us closer together. There's no doubt. I think that's the case across all different fields that COVID made us realize that we need the communities of which we're part, you know, you can't go it alone in a crisis, um, or to put it another way, there's nothing like a crisis to make, to make you realize that you need your colleagues.
Alex G: [00:36:39] That's well put. 
Louise Jarvis: [00:36:40] Um, well, I think it's really true where you, um, that support at a time of crisis was really invaluable. So it's by talking, um, that we ensure that we're more or less on the same page, but bear in mind that Calliope, I said at the beginning, Calliope, we have shared values, but we do things in different ways. There are no official Calliope positions on such and such. People are allowed to have different views and we share our views. And that's one of the challenges, I think. That we have different views, but we agree to differ because that's what, well, it's not surprising that we have different views because we're all working in really diverse markets with different traditions and customs and so on. So we have to agree to differ and that's what makes our network life so enriching. I think.
Alex D: [00:37:37] But that's really interesting to me. Um, and it sounds a little bit like that's different at congrestolken where it seems like it's more of a, sort of a backup, a backup secretariat, logistics, that kind of thing. Or do you also have sort of bigger projects that are more about marketing, for example? 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:37:54] Yes, we do. We do have, uh, groups of interpreters targeting a certain situation or RSI or a tender. We have a tender team doing the tenders. So we do have that, um, But because you have an office it's very tempting to think, you know, well, the office can organize it or the office should do it. Um, but we all became members of the cooperative for a reason. And the co-operative is what the word says: it's a cooperative. So we, um, I must say that maybe we, our members should, um, are not, not always as active as we would like them to be because over the years, things have changed. I mean, members, uh, became a member maybe 20 years ago, started to work for international organizations instead of private market so much. So they have different interests. Um, so they're not as, uh, involved, maybe not as willing to put in time. So there there's a bit of a disparity here. Um, and I think the fact that you have an office with staff also makes you a bit, maybe lazy or sit back and figure it out. Well, the offer shouldn't, it should, should do that. And we're all so busy doing other things and at work and everything, everybody's busy. Um, so I really liked the Calliope idea and the KDD idea of rolling up your sleeves and, and really, um, achieving something together.
Louise Jarvis: [00:39:27] I agree. And if I may, um, add onto that, that I think it's by having these common projects that you pull together more as a team and to get to know each other better. And we're the same, we have a committee, if you like, a group that works on blog posts for the website, and we have a social media group that works on keeping our social media accounts alive and that sort of thing. And I love that personally because it, it just enables you to have a really good team spirit and to work together on very specific projects. 
Alex D: [00:40:03] That's interesting. And maybe that as a question to Calliope and KDD: um, where do you see? Hmm, I'm trying to be, uh, nice about this, but a lot of professional associations do that as well. This sort of content marketing and, and raising awareness, you know, for clients and potential clients. So, um, what do you do differently from say professional associations, like AIIC, uh, in terms of marketing or raising awareness, or where do you see your edge possibly? 
Louise Jarvis: [00:40:33] I think our marketing is more client focused than AIIC. Obviously, because AIIC's a professional association, so it's promoting professional standards and, um, training and that kind of thing. Um, and we're focusing on, I mean, not just client things. Let me give some examples. So we might, um, explain how we've solved a problem for a client. That's a good topic for a blog post or, um, most recently, in fact, just last week, we've published one, um, on our going green project. Um, and this is something that we decided to do a few years ago. We decided to calculate the CO2 emissions that we generate in our consultancy work. So we, um, all carefully gathered our statistics and submitted it to, um, a lucky member who had the job of collating all the statistics and adding them all up, producing pie charts and so on. And then we decided together, um, to offset those CO2 emissions, um, by planting trees as it happens. And so we've just published a blog post explaining how we've decided to offset our CO2 emissions. And interestingly, uh, we've had to develop that project of course, because no one's been traveling anywhere in the last year. So we've turned our focus towards digital carbon footprints and the idea, the very real fact, in fact, that we are generating CO2 by using all this technology. Um, so we've offset our CO2 emissions at the same level as 2019.
Alex D: [00:42:09] So I'm assuming you also have a much more direct feedback from clients and you can sort of be much more focused, which, you know, of course a professional association cannot do. That makes sense. Yeah. But Monika, if you wanna chip in as well… 
Monika Ott: [00:42:21] Well, the marketing can be more tailor made, 
Alex D: [00:42:24] Hm. 
Monika Ott: [00:42:25] But it makes sense to have a group of people working on marketing, but then the others need to be okay with your marketing strategy. So that has to go through the committee kind of, um, but sitting still, I mean, you need to be visible? You need to make yourself heard. So you have to use your voice and to shout on the different social media channels. Um, we're trying to do that, too. But sometimes other things get in the way, but we're trying. On LinkedIn, on Twitter and Facebook and everything that's out there. Maybe Insta at some point in time?
Alex D: [00:43:07] Okay. 
Alex G: [00:43:08] But, you know, I also think, and this also goes, it goes back to what Louise was saying. And even Sybelle was saying, like, they have the different groups for different, um, for different things. And even at KDD, we have that. So we have two members taking care of LinkedIn and producing more lengthy posts, more substantial. Um, what is it called? I think articles. Is it LinkedIn articles? 
Monika Ott: [00:43:24] Can be an article. It can be a post.
Alex G: [00:43:26] Yeah. So I think they're doing like more, more of that. And then Monika and I were doing, um, Twitter for KDD. Monika also does articles for the, the Hamburg network because bear in mind, we all have the KDD overarching network of the four cities, but then every city basically is a two member network. Cause we're still all freelance interpreters, independent freelance interpreters. Um, so kind of every city is its own mini network with two people. And I think it's really funny because, uh, Monica is selling herself way short because she always has the, the, the, the most spontaneous ideas. She'd be like, Hey guys, by the way, yesterday, I had a day off and I produced five explanatory videos that we can send to clients and here they go. And so there's a lot of stuff that you can do in a network. And I feel the beauty of it is if I have a day off or two, you know, I can do something and then I can just send it to the network. And then if somebody else has a little bit of time at their hands, they can, they can do the same thing. And so you kind of contribute organically to this thing without even making it a project. It's just like, Hey, I had this cool idea and...
Monika Ott: [00:44:32] Who wants to join?
Alex G: [00:44:32] I've, and I've made something. Yeah. And so I feel like that's also really part of the appeal. Um, 
Alex D: [00:44:39] I mean, that's how stuff gets done. Right. Somebody has an idea and pushes forward and yeah. 
Alex G: [00:44:44] Sure. Um, but I have a question to Sybelle and this is completely changing, changing gears and changing topics, but we had, um, I think Monika had mentioned the intra-network competition, and I feel for Calliope, it might not be super relevant because you're all spread out over the globe. And for KDD were kind of all in our separate corners of Germany. But then for congrestolken, you guys are all sort of in the Netherlands or most of you are in the Netherlands, you said. So how do you make sure that you're not sort of, um, what's the word cannibalizing? Do you know what I mean? Like how do you settle who gets, which job for which language combination is there ever any, any friction?
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:45:28] No, not really because, um, no, uh, we have small groups, the booths, the languages, and we divide as fairly as we can. We divide the work among the interpreters, but we do look at which interpreter, which client, you know, is there something that we have an assignment for Dutch parliament, who do we send? You know, you need someone who can do the job and who can talk to people and be representative, uh, things like that. So we try to even it out and everybody gets the same amount of work. But of course we do have members who are a bit older or want to work less. And so we sort of adjust. Um, so yeah, I don't think that that is really the problem. What we have done is, um, we have an alliance with CII and with AIB, CII in Brussels and AIB in Barcelona. And so we work with them. If we have assignments in Spain, for instance, we will liaise with them with, uh, one of our big European clients. Um, for the tender, we partnered with CII in order to have a more robust structure to tender with. So we work with other associations.
Alex G: [00:46:44] Oh, that's brilliant.
Alex D: [00:46:45] So maybe just to explain real briefly. So tender means that you're basically bidding for a big, um, what, not one interpreting assignment, but you're, you're...
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:46:53] to become the, the interpreter, the provider of interpretation, conference interpretation for in this case, a large European institution. Yep.
Alex G: [00:47:04] But when you just said it, it makes complete sense that you have, of course, the interpreters who work for a client and you try to, to, to keep the interpreter-client relationship as consistent as possible, which makes sense on so many levels. And it didn't even occur to me when I wrote down the question, but of course that's what we tried to do as well. Right. So that just makes sense that the secretariat would do the same thing, of course.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:47:23] And what we're trying to do now is what I personally try to do: sometimes ring clients. Because our project managers at the office could do that, and do that constantly. But sometimes I think, you know, it's a good idea for an interpreter to call the client and to say: Hey, I'm the interpreter. Can I help you? Can I explain things, but sometimes I find it very difficult to get our ideas across and to make them understand how important quality is and how important sound is for instance...
Alex G: [00:47:50] Oh!
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:47:50] And the technical facilities.
Monika Ott: [00:47:51] Don't get me started on this!
Alex G: [00:47:52] Talk about riding the RSI wave!
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:47:55] But sometimes I'm thinking, you know, okay, let me call the client because I'm the interpreter and I can explain it better. But more often than not, I get the feeling that they have no time and no interest in listening to me and why it is important.
They just want a good interpretation on the day of the conference and that's it. And they really couldn't care less.
Alex G: [00:48:15] Hmm. That is very true. You know, while we're still on the topic of, of sort of challenges within the networks, I mean the whole job allocation thing, might've been one, but then also, especially for, um, Calliope, when you guys do the consultancy work, how do you make sure that quality assurance or like even peer evaluation is coming into the thing? Like, is that, is that part of your process as a part of the consultancy process?
Louise Jarvis: [00:48:41] No. Well, we wouldn't have a peer evaluate each other. I think, um, we trust each other. Um, everyone is an expert, really. Everyone is, uh, is very experienced and if they need help, they'll ask. I mean, that's the, the great benefit is that if you have a situation that you're not quite sure how to deal with, there will be somebody in the network who's encountered that situation before and will be able to advise you. So you send out a little SOS and you'll always get a helpful reply. Um, so I think it's by sharing information and asking for help that we know how we're collectively dealing with all of the assignments that we service. You know, it's about trust, isn't it? And we're all AIIC interpreters.  We're all AIIC consultant interpreters. We all want to do the best job we can. We all love interpreting and we all want to ensure that we can, and the people we recruit can do the best job possible. And therefore we try to obtain the best possible working conditions for ourselves and the interpreters we recruit.
Monika Ott: [00:49:52] Speaking of competition. I think we're all fairly established on the market. So if I have X days, X assignments at the end of the year, or I have X-2 at the end of a year, I really don't care. So if a client of mine, if there is such a thing at all, needs a recommendation in another city and it happens to be a KDD city, I am happy to pass the client on to my colleague. And I also believe in karma, in terplove. So what goes around, comes around eventually, and it will be fine. Everyone's happy.
Louise Jarvis: [00:50:29] Yeah, I agree with that actually. It ties in with one of the reasons why Calliope was founded and it was so that interpreters could pass, or members of Calliope could pass clients to each other. Um, you know, if a company might have its annual conference in Canada one year, but it might have it in Switzerland the next year and Australia the next... and one of the advantages of Calliope or that's the model anyway, is that this client can be passed from Calliope member to Calliope member. The member who's already worked with the client can brief the new member on the client's requirements. Um, the Calliope member in situ in Switzerland say has the local knowledge to be able to provide a good team. So it makes sense to pass clients around because it means that you provide better quality, I think.
Monika Ott: [00:51:21] Well in Germany, they tend to go to Berlin sooner or later. We pass on the clients to Berlin.
Louise Jarvis: [00:51:27] Okay. 
Alex D: [00:51:29] I actually just have a quick follow-up question, Louise, if I may. Um, because I was wondering... We don't want to cover sort of COVID too much, um, tonight, I think, but I'm wondering if, if you have sort of seen. Um, in terms of, because you're positioned globally. Um, and do you feel that remote has already made a difference there, or maybe, uh, that, that clients are maybe less aware of the geography and think, well, it doesn't really matter where an interpreter sits can't they all just, you know, work from their computer at home, something like that? 
Louise Jarvis: [00:52:01] It's a good point. Although I think time differences are still very important, aren't they? I mean, you don't want, um, it wouldn't be good to be working in the middle of the night or what have you, but, but you're right. It's blurred to the geographical boundaries. What we're doing is we're still, um, if any work comes into the central website, we're still allocating that, if you like, passing it on to the member, who's based in the country where the client is. Um, so that's how we're solving that one, but you're right, it has blurred the boundaries a little bit. Yeah. 
Alex D: [00:52:33] But it maybe also means that you're more flexible, um, you know, in terms of time zones and you have people in different places being able to respond or to help.
Louise Jarvis: [00:52:42] Yeah, I think that's right. There is some additional flexibility there. Definitely.
Alex D: [00:52:47] I was actually going to ask one more question on the quality assurance. Um, Sybelle, is that different for you as a secretariat? Do you have any sort of structures in place for quality assurance and maybe evaluating, especially maybe interpreters who are new to congrestolken to make sure they meet your standards? 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:53:06] Yes, absolutely. We need to have that system in place. Uh, it's a sort of Dutch regulation that we need to comply with. So we need to set up processes at the office that are compliant with, uh, with the standard. And that includes this and, um, peer assessments. So we've assessed, uh, the members of the cooperative, we also assess the interpreters that work for us, uh, from time to time. And particularly if there's a new interpreter. So yes, uh, we have a quality assurance system in place for that. And that is one of the yeah, things that come with having an actual office, an actual business. And that takes a lot of time and investment as well. All these processes that you need to have in place in order to get all your standard qualifications, which is important because that's also a quality marks that you want on your website and things like that. So yes, we do have that in place. 
Alex D: [00:54:03] And I'm assuming that's also something that is, um, part of tendering procedures, I guess, sort of having all these procedures in place. 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:54:10] Yes, you need, you need to have that, but it's important for us as well to have that and to evaluate new colleagues or younger colleagues that come in, it's important that we all work with them. And then we have, uh, more or less objective assessment of new colleagues. Yes.
Alex G: [00:54:25] And can I just interject here real quick and say that if it's actually established as part of the network, like this is just part of our procedure, it's, it's something very different. So I was in the booth with a colleague before COVID and before we started, this was his client and I was, I was on the job with him. And before the job started, he gave me a sheet of paper and he was saying, well, it's part of my process. I'm doing peer evaluations. So this is your sheet. So you can evaluate me and I will do the same to you. Is that okay? And I was like, Oh, my God, this has never happened to me. But I think if it's established as just part of this is our process, this is how we operate. I think it's something more expected and you can kind of handle it much differently than if somebody, if just a random colleague says, Hey, can you evaluate me? I think this is a very different level of, of yeah... 
Monika Ott: [00:55:11] the thing is, Alex, it happens to you all the time, but without a sheet of paper.
Alex G: [00:55:16] Without the sheet of paper, but that makes it less official. And that makes it less, less in your face sort of, but Alex, I'm sure you guys get evaluated all the time at the, at the EU. 
Alex D: [00:55:25] That's actually why I was asking. Yeah. Yes, because I think that having a process in place is actually a good thing because, um, of course there's this sort of implicit feedback in so far, as, you know, maybe you don't get invited back, um, for jobs, if, if people didn't enjoy working with you. So I think that's definitely a benefit to having sort of an explicit process in place, maybe even as standardized, I don't know if it has to be a form, but some kind of explicit sort of feedback system is actually a good thing. Uh, simply because it's not something that we're necessarily used to. I mean, Yeah, staffers, we're definitely used it because it's part of the whole machinery, but it seems less current in, in freelancer circles, but yeah, I don't want to belabor the point. 
Alex G: [00:56:04] Yeah, because usually it's like, no news is good news, right?
Alex D: [00:56:07] Yeah
Alex G: [00:56:07] That's how it goes. 
Alex D: [00:56:08] It's kind of, I guess everybody was happy or maybe not. Because, you know, if it's done well, it can really help you, you know, especially beginning. 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:56:15] I was going to say, yeah
Alex D: [00:56:17] Because it can be scary of course, um, you know, working with more experienced colleagues and then getting feedback, but it can, if it's done well, you know, it can really help you grow, I guess. Um, but again, there's, there's an episode for that as well about feedback. 
Alex G: [00:56:29] Yeah. So Monika: food for thought for KDD.
Monika Ott: [00:56:33] I'll put it on my list.
Alex D: [00:56:35] Exactly. Put it on the, on the bucket list. But Alex said in the beginning, um, you know, he talked about a whole, the, the, the stuff about applications, but, um, what I'd be interested in is hearing from all of you actually is how do you renew basically? How do you, how do you, you know, um, bring in new people? I mean, there were some constraints, for example, ease you set that you usually just have one consultant interpreter per country. Is that it kind of limits, I guess, the whole turnover, but I mean, you still want to bring in new people, maybe, maybe move into new countries. Well, how does that happen for the different networks? Um, finding new people or going into new markets, I guess. 
Louise Jarvis: [00:57:16] Yeah, I mean, we're not keen on growing for the sake of growing. Um, if, if we grow, then it would be to welcome a new member who we think is really suitable, a really good fit for the network, um, shares the same values, will work well with us, will enjoy being part of the team, um, and somebody who we can grow to trust and, and work with effectively. I think the, the main message is we're not wanting to grow for the sake of it. But if we identify someone who we think would be a really good fit, then we would approach that person and ask them if they were interested. That's basically how it works.
Alex D: [00:58:02] So you're keeping an eye on who's out there and then who might be a good fit. Okay. Um, and then Sybelle or Monika, you... 
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [00:58:10] Well, basically the same answer. We always keep our eyes and ears open, but there is a sort of limit and we look at per booth, how many interpreters we have and we've got to divide the work first among the members interpreters only when, you know, the members are all, um, or busy, do we go and look for other interpreters. So we don't want to have overcrowded members, but it was, we really need to be able to offer a new member, something substantial. Um, last year with the COVID crisis, you know, we were all like, oh my God, what's happening. So we really need to find our bearings again, and let's see what's out there and see who can indeed, who's a good fit and, um, have added value for, for the cooperative and the other way round. We need to have an added value for them.
Monika Ott: [00:59:00] Well, KDD is not planning on growing for the time being, 
Alex D: [00:59:03] Kind of limited by the, by the four corners of Germany.
Monika Ott: [00:59:06] There are some blank spots on the German map that we could cover.
Alex D: [00:59:10] Like Fulda maybe? Nah, just kidding.
Monika Ott: [00:59:12] Fulda, yes. Growing market. Um, well, we kind of try to cover all corners of the country, even though north Rhine-Westphalia is not really a corner. So it's corner-ish, maybe, so we could cover Baden-Württemberg. Um, just wait for it. You'll know.
Alex G: [00:59:32] Yeah. You'll know. 
Alex D: [00:59:33] Watch this space. 
Alex G: [00:59:34] But I think I like, I really, I really like what Louise was saying. And then also Sybelle. Like we're not growing for the sake of growing and I don't think anyone is growing for the sake of growing. And if you are looking at growth, you have to look at the work that you have for the members that you have. And, and that's kind of, if you still can provide the level of quality and if you can still cover the workload with the people that you have, there's no point in growing just to grow. Yeah.
Monika Ott: [00:59:59] And we need that URL address. So...
Alex G: [01:00:01] That is very... 
Monika Ott: [01:00:02] That's the limiting factor. 
Alex D: [01:00:02] If there's no domain, you can't do it. Yeah. 
Monika Ott: [01:00:05] That's it. No domain, no competition.
Alex G: [01:00:08] That's right. I think a really nice wrap-up question to all of you is if someone's listened to this episode, And they now say, wow, and having a network or being part of a secretary, it sounds super awesome. I can't join anyone. I don't know anyone who's in a network. So let me just form my own network. Like, what are the, what are the sort of the pitfalls? What are the things to look out for? Who should you, who should you go for when you kind of want to embark on this, on this journey? What are the tips and tricks you could give to our lovely listeners in that regard? Monika, why don't you start off? I'm just going to pick you because you've picked the network.
Monika Ott: [01:00:46] Yeah. What was I thinking?  Well, a network, shouldn't be a straight jacket. It shouldn't be a 16th century girdle that keeps you from breathing. Um, it shouldn't take away your professional freedoms either. I believe it should broaden your horizon. It should help you grow individually, professionally. Um, do that with the people you like, you really like and you respect. And, um, that is, that is my message.
Louise Jarvis: [01:01:19] I really liked what you just said, Monika, about networks not being a straight jacket and enabling you to be free. And, um, and that's how you're going to blossom, um, in your career is totally true. And that's definitely the case for Calliope. I think networks are a really good idea. I mean the business world out there is a harsh environment, isn't it, sometimes. And to have like-minded colleagues who share the same values, in whom you can confide and from whom you can receive support is just absolutely invaluable. I think being free is really important. But one top tip would be to nonetheless have some clear rules on which your association is based. That's going to solve any disagreements that you might have, and it's going to make your network's life more straightforward, and it's going to preserve those wonderful friendships that you build up through your network.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [01:02:15] I can only echo what has been said. There's really nothing I can add to that. No, wonderful!
Monika Ott: [01:02:22] Choose people or colleagues you can laugh with.
Louise Jarvis: [01:02:24] Hmm.
Sybelle van Hal-Bock: [01:02:24] Positive energy.
Alex D: [01:02:26] Yeah. Especially in times, like, you know, last year to some extent still this year. Um, actually that was one thing that I really liked in, because it, I sort of came through in, in, um, what all three of you said is the sort of camaraderie and mutual support. Um, not just in, in professional terms, but also in sort of yeah human terms, I guess. So that was really, really lovely to see. Um, and, um, yeah, it's been an interesting. Because, you know, again, I, I'm not a freelance interpreter, so it's always nice for me to get some deeper insight into how you all work. And there are some similarities to what we do. But, um, anyway, I think what I'm trying to say is that, uh, I really appreciated all the, all the insight that you've given to us from different angles. And, you know, you, you showed that, um, interpreter networks can take very different forms from the secretariat to consultant interpreting to, you know, um, the, the network that, um, KDD is, is building in Germany. So, um, thank you for sharing so generously, and I think just to underline that this, this was the idea here was not to, you know, make an advertisement for different networks, but really to, to see how colleagues approach it. And, you know, maybe it's interesting for you to join a network or, uh, in fact even set up your own, um, right, Alex? Uh, any, any big takeaway for you there from today's episode? 
Alex G: [01:03:45] Good. I think that's pretty much exactly it. If, you know, be the change you want to see if there is no network where you are and you want to be part of a group of colleagues, you don't want to go at it alone. Just, you know, find a group of like-minded colleagues you can laugh with, you can work with, that you get along with, and just sit down and discuss it and do it. And I think that's really important, especially since we're all riding the RSI wave and it's good to, it's good to have it. 
Alex D: [01:04:09] Phrase of the day. Yeah, exactly. And it also felt like, yeah, it also felt like all of you were sort of sometimes taking notes and I don't know, maybe that's something that we could do in our network. So I guess, um, especially for that, it was already worth it. Um, so thank you. Um, again, this, this was a really interesting episode once again, and it's always the guests that make a, an episode really worthwhile. So, uh, thanks for joining us and to all our lovely listeners, talk to you very soon, uh, and feel free to share your experience with networks and, um, what you're doing out there. 
Alex G: [01:04:42] See you in the next one. 
Bye-bye!