44: Revisiting Mental Health w/ Hannah Watson

TRANSCRIPT REVISED BY KATHERINE SCHIRMER-TULLY

Sarah: [00:00:00] I'm an interpreter. I talk about it all the time. Last time we talked for two hours, so I thought I should give you a heads-up. [Giggling]

Alex G: [00:00:08] Yay! That's gonna be awesome!

Jonathan: [00:00:12] We had a recording on Monday when we managed to run out someone's mobile internet allowance, which I thought was a first for us.

Sarah: [00:00:22] It's already getting heated before the recording starts.

Alex G: [00:00:25] Guys, I'm already having vicarious trauma from all this news coverage, so, you know...

Jonathan: [00:00:29] It can't be vicarious if you actually suffered it directly.

Alex D: [00:00:33] Exactly. Then it's just trauma. [Chuckling]

Alex G: [00:00:35] Well, I'm... Yeah, OK. [Giggling]

Hannah: [00:00:39] I have to say, I listened and went back and listen to your episode with Justine the other day, and the image of Oktoberfest... [AG laughs hysterically] Yup!

Jonathan: [00:00:55] One of our episodes on Spotify actually has an explicit content warning. [AG: Only one?] I thought, what did we say?

Sarah: [00:01:03] Do we try to avoid that?

Jonathan: [00:01:05] Well, I try to. It's family-friendly for a weird definition of family.

Alex G: [00:01:11] Kind of like, ah, shucks!

Alex G: [00:01:15] Welcome everyone to Troublesome Terps, the podcast that keeps interpreters up even on a Friday night at 9pm, which is...

Alex D: [00:01:22] That's commitment.

Alex G: [00:01:22] ... at the moment. That is commitment, and I'm Alexander Gansmeier, here to introduce to you our lovely non-manel for the day. But as always, I will start with the resident jokesters. Our luscious Luxembourgian Alexander Drechsel.

Alex D: [00:01:36] Wait, wait. What? The luscious Lux...

Alex G: [00:01:39] I don't know. I just made that up. [Giggling]

Alex D: [00:01:39] You had to. You just had to make the alliteration work. I get that.

Alex G: [00:01:43] Yeah.

Alex D: [00:01:43] OK.

Alex G: [00:01:43] Of course.

Alex D: [00:01:44] That works for me. Hi, everyone!

Alex G: [00:01:48] [Giggling] And then, of course, also our sassy Scotsman Jonathan Downie. Welcome!

Jonathan: [00:01:53] I'll take both of them, actually, both of them are accurate.

Alex G: [00:01:55] See?

Jonathan: [00:01:55] Which is pretty good.

Alex G: [00:01:57] I feel like it works. Alright. And then, of course, we have two lovely ladies joining us today. Alex, who's joining us today as our special guest on this Friday night?

Alex D: [00:02:05] Yeah, first of all, we have a... I was going to say repeat offender but that sounds horrible but... [Giggling] just to say...

Alex G: [00:02:12] Depending how the night goes.

Alex D: [00:02:14] We've had her on the show before, it's Sarah Hickey from Galway. Good evening, Sarah.

Sarah: [00:02:18] Hey, good evening. What an introduction. So...

Alex D: [00:02:21] Yes.

Sarah: [00:02:21] ... nice to be back. [Giggling]

Alex G: [00:02:24] He's feeling the love.

Jonathan: [00:02:25] The way he said Sarah Hickey from Galway reminded me of an old TV show called Blind Date.

Sarah: [00:02:31] Yes. [Giggling]

Alex D: [00:02:33] Hmmm... OK.

Alex G: [00:02:34] [Giggling] I love it. Oh my God.

Alex D: [00:02:35] I don't think I want to know more about this at this point.

Jonathan: [00:02:39] "She likes golf or lacrosse!"

Alex D: [00:02:44] Right. OK. [Laughing]

Alex G: [00:02:45] It's off to a rocky start.

Alex D: [00:02:48] Moving on to our final guest for today's episode. It's Hannah Watson. Good evening, Hannah.

Hannah: [00:02:54] Good evening, guys... and girl.

Alex D: [00:02:57] [Laughing] [AG: Laughing] The gal was very apt because it was actually Sarah who introduced you to us because [HW: Yes.] we wanted to do more on mental health and vicarious trauma and sort of discuss that topic once again, which we had done before with Justine Mason. But we always felt that there was a need to sort of dig deeper, go further in that. And as it so happened, Sarah wrote very interesting articles on Nimdzi about exactly that topic. So we figured that would be a good consolation to bring together on the show, I guess. [HW: Yep] So that's what we're going to talk about. [AG: So here we are!] But yeah, before we sort of dive into the research, Hannah, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? We know that you are a sign language interpreter, so maybe start with that a little bit for those of us, for those listeners who don't know that much about sign language interpreting, maybe.

Hannah: [00:03:50] Well, first correction, I'm a BRITISH Sign Language interpreter.

Alex D: [00:03:53] Sorry. Yeah.

Hannah: [00:03:55] [Giggling] There are multiple sign languages, it is not universal. [AD: That's right.] So, yes, I'm a British Sign Language interpreter, have been for over a decade. And... yeah, I got into that, changed schools, met a couple of deaf girls, kind of became a bit of language thing there, started learning it, had the deaf teacher go: "Have you thought about becoming an interpreter?" Well, I'm doing lots of languages, so that was why I went to university to do straight out of A-levels and kind of haven't looked back since. Been dabbling in everything. The deaf community and interpreting related since. And then sort of natural extension of that, couple of years back was I did a diploma in supervision, which has kind of been the adjunct to that. That's kind of indirectly how I've ended up in this evening.

Alex D: [00:04:48] [Giggling] And just... quickly, how does one become a Sign Language or British Sign Language interpreter?

Hannah: [00:04:55] So I did a mishmash of a university degree, having done some evening classes to begin learning sign language. Went to the University of Wolverhampton, did a three year undergraduate, came out at the bottom level of registration. They've changed the acronym several times since then... as they wanted to do. So I came out at the bottom level of registration, then did a couple of NVQs to kind of finished up my knowledge, prove I could jump through the hoops and came out of that... And that was probably about three, two and a half year from coming out of the university to going "OK, I now meet the minimum national standards."

Jonathan: [00:05:34] So what university did you do your undergraduate degree in? Because I understand certainly in the UK there aren't that many who would do a full undergraduate degree in sign language, British Sign Language interpreting.

Hannah: [00:05:43] So the point I went, there was only Bristol and Wolverhampton. I went to Wolverhampton. Bristol since closed its doors to undergraduates. I believe the only two undergraduates now are still Wolverhampton, although you can take that through to an MA. And the Heriot-Watt one. So yeah, there's only, actually, one in England.

Alex D: [00:06:02] Wow. Yeah. And how did you how did you two meet? Sarah and Hannah.

Sarah: [00:06:08] Well, I was doing a project for Nimdzi on vicarious trauma in interpreters. Started out with an article that I believe you guys have read 'the cost of caring', that's accessible to the public as well. But then we also did a more in-depth report with primary research. So I reached out with a survey first and put in the option for people to be contacted by me, basically, if they... they would be available for an interview. And Hannah was one of the people who reached out. And so we set up an interview and she gave me some more detailed insights about her experience with vicarious trauma. And we particularly also talked about clinical supervision, which is another tool for interpreters to help them overcome or deal with vicarious trauma and other things they experience on the job. And, you know, Hannah can talk in more detail about that later but this is how we started talking. And then, Hannah reached out to me for an interview afterwards for a research she's doing. So we we've kind of kept the communication lines open since.

Alex D: [00:07:16] Sounds great.

Hannah: [00:07:17] Although I will jump in and say, amongst interpreting profession, we are trying to call it professional supervision. Just to have the differentiation that clinical is kind of counsellors. And so it's professional supervision. It's also not helped among sign language interpreters because all registration body uses the term supervisor for supervising trainees. So we needed

Alex D: [00:07:39] Right.

Hannah: [00:07:39] The additional wording

Alex D: [00:07:40] Yeah.

Hannah: [00:07:40] To kind of really differentiate. OK, you can have professional supervision if you're a trainee, who's also being supervised for regulatory, becoming qualified, purposes.

Alex D: [00:07:52] OK.

Hannah: [00:07:53] But it is slightly different than those registering body supervisors are. That's more of an assessing role. Checking the boxes, are you doing your training plan, etc.

Alex D: [00:08:04] Doing the paperwork.

Hannah: [00:08:06] Yes. So that is a different role. So, yeah, just having that differentiator so we can kind of help clarify for people what that is.

Alex D: [00:08:16] OK. 

Jonathan: [00:08:16] I think, I think it's interesting because from my understanding is that professional supervision seems to take as background from the kind of support that's been made available for, I don't know, how long for those for those in the medical profession. And I'm not sure when the awareness started but I've really been amazed and encouraged by the awareness amongst British Sign Language interpreters that the actual job has a lot of the same caring issues and issues of things like emotional overload. And they need to build resilience. Need to talk through your experience that you would experience if you were in the medical profession. And it's been really encouraging to see sign language... to see British Sign Language interpreters actually be some of the first in the entire interpreting sector to say, you know, because we are there. It matters that we get help as well.

Hannah: [00:09:09] Hmmm... And I think part of that has come from some of Dean and Pollard, Robin Dean's research around moving interpreting more towards a practice profession. And so a lot of that kind of dialogue around expanding it out of the the the EIPIs and moving it beyond just language in it, is the people involved in your making decisions in context of the situation your're in. I think that's also that's also probably something interpreters you hang around with [Chuckling] that, that you are more in the aware tip of the iceberg on that side of things. But I think some of that also stems from the fact that we're ninety eight percent of the time, I would say of the top of my head, physically present at all of our jobs. You know, we're not sitting in a booth, we're not physically removed from the situation, we're kind of apart from the slight rise of VRS—Video Relay interpreting—that side of things. Most of it is still in person. So I think that physical presence has kind of impacted that kind of conversation a bit more than it would spoken language interpreters. I think the other side of that is one that was something I was discussing with Sarah when we had my interview was, it's the physicality of sign language, both from a physical, quote unquote, waving your arms around. And you do get that they "oh you'd be the person that waves her hands around on the bottom corner of the telly, you know, let's say at two o'clock in the morning." Yes, I am the equivalent to the person that is interpreting Hollyoaks at 2 o'clock in the morning. However, that is not what I do. [Laughing]

Alex D: [00:11:01] There's still a lot of awareness raising to be done around sign languages and sign language interpreting but I hear there's a podcast about that.

Jonathan: [00:11:09] [Giggling] But I was just going to say that one of the things that we need to get out there, that spoken language interpreters aren't aware of is in spoken language interpreting and I am trying to fight against this. We split the world into nice, neat settings. We have court interpreters, we have community interpreters, we have business interpreters and we have conference interpreters. And it's all nice and neat and quiet. And there are some interpreters who, if you suggest to them that they could retrain or work in any other setting, they go ballistic at you as if you just insulted their mother.

Hannah: [00:11:40] [Chuckling]

Jonathan: [00:11:40] But with sign language interpreters, you guys don't have that. I mean, I know that does kind of an element of choice but from what I understand, the sign language interpreting and supervising two interns for six months. Sorry, coaching. Not supervising. [SH: Laughing] Coaching two interns for six months. It's that sign language interpreters because there are so few of you. You end up, you could end up doing a hospital visit one day and an international conference the next?

Hannah: [00:12:04] And that's, yes. And I think, I think it's about twelve hundred of us in the entirety of the UK... Give or take. My numbers might be slightly off but that that's the figure that sits in my head. So, yes, we get trained to be interpreters in any domain and it's more or less you kind of then go and do a bit of extra on the job training or a couple of maybe there's a two day foundations in mental health interpreting course that you go and do, you go and do three days worth of court interpreting. And that's the add on after, you just trained as an interpreter, just! You're trained as [SH: Giggling] as an interpreter first. And I think that the other side of that, possibly, is because we're working with such a minority community. And so we get a lot more of the cultural aspects of that coming in because of the sensitivities of working with what is traditionally an oppressed community. And also, I think that's because we are, by physical nature, the only set of interpreters who can't be from the community or today couldn't because deaf people can't hear. [Chuckling] So therefore...

Alex G: [00:13:17] Get...

Hannah: [00:13:17] They can't...

Alex G: [00:13:17] Out of...

Hannah: [00:13:18] Interpret.

Alex G: [00:13:18] Town! [SH: Giggling]

Hannah: [00:13:19] They can't be interpreters in their mother tongue. There is a rise of trained translators who are deaf themselves and come work from auto cues, all sort of life feeds and that sort of things. There are more deaf interpreters coming through in that respect but that's very much teamwork. That's a different set up.

Alex G: [00:13:40] Yeah, I've actually heard about that in Germany that there is, in German they call them re-interpreters. So it's basically like a hearing person will listen to what is being said, then interprete it into sign language and then there will be a deaf person looking at the sign language and then re-interpreting it into... well, basically their, like their mother tongue.

Hannah: [00:14:00] Yes, so in the in the UK, we call those relay interpreters. So the deaf person might be going from me as British Sign Language interpreter, I'm listening to the English. I'm putting into British Sign Language. They might be then translating it into German Sign Language or Australian Sign Language.

Alex G: [00:14:18] Right.

Hannah: [00:14:19] So they're...

Alex G: [00:14:19] Right.

Hannah: [00:14:20] So they're, in that instance, they are interpreting because they're going from one sign language to another sign language or they might be used now often for deaf people whose first language is British Sign Language. But they're where minimal languages are. Or they're in very acute mental distress. So the amount of language modification I would need to do as a British Sign Language interpreter might be beyond my capacity. I mean, I can, I can take my rates dropping down quite a lot. I've just signed out you on camera. Yeah, adjusting my register [Laughing]...

Alex G: [00:14:52] Yes. [Laughing]

Hannah: [00:14:55] So I can work within the boundaries of sign language to a reasonable degree. But there would be some points that I would hit that would be just "OK, that is no longer in my capacity to use British Sign Language in the way that that person needs." And that's where nuances of someone who is deaf and uses the language themselves and is trained as a relay will be able to add different nuances, especially in the mental health setting, to be able to break things down in different way, to completely reframe things, for example.

Alex G: [00:15:22] Right but then that could also be from British Sign Language into British Sign Language from the deaf interpreter, because I think that's what the guy in Munich was telling me, that it happens from German to German Sign Language to German Sign Language done by the deaf sign language interpreter.

Hannah: [00:15:37] Yes.

Hannah: [00:15:37] So that was what I meant by the mental health example, that British Sign Language to the deaf interpreter who would [AG: Got it.] be using British Sign Language. But in a much more broken down, much more explained, perhaps much more culturally appropriate, they're able to tune into the language of that person in a way that would either take me a lot longer and/or perhaps I just don't have the nuances that they do.

Jonathan: [00:16:04] I think also I've come across a sign language translation. One of my supervisors was Svenja Wurm who did a PhD on sign language translation where you have like a textbook where you could have a hearing interpreter or a deaf interpreter who is working with that and trying to work on how do I sign this text book? And it was really interesting when this is a whole other podcast episode. [Giggling] So there's two things going on, when I tell people that if you want to know spoken language interpreters will be discussing in 10 years time, you look at what sign language interpreters are talking about today. And the other one is that sign language interpreting across, I think, most sign language is becoming a lot more varied and a lot more able to do a lot more things that people give it credit for. And that, does that put more pressure on training sign language interpreters to kind of be even more flexible, to be able to do everything or is that creating space for a measure of specialisation?

Hannah: [00:17:04] There... There's still a bit of that you're expected to be a jack of all trades. I think in that perspective. You can, I mean, so for instance, I don't tend to do a lot of theatre work, standing up on stage because a) that's not my particular preference. And b) I've actually got an old underlying shoulder issue injury. That means doing extended periods on my own for any length of time is not something that's physically possible for me. So there is a certain amount of preference that can come into that. But I think possibly due to the numbers, it's always been a... you've given as much as you can and you work with what you've got.

Alex G: [00:17:43] Hmmmm... That sounds familiar [AD: Laughing]. But... [Giggling] So the topic of the night was going to be vicarious trauma. And I'm sure that sign language interpreters, just due to the variety of scenarios that you guys are working in, experience that a ton as well. But obviously it also affects the spoken language interpreters. So I wonder if maybe we could, first of all, just throw out a definition of vicarious trauma for the listeners in case anyone is not 100 percent familiar with the concept.

Sarah: [00:18:15] Yeah. So when I looked into the concept, vicarious trauma was defined as internalising someone else's trauma. So interpreters are not the only professions, professionals that are affected by this. It's quite common in first responders and in psychologists. So any people that deal with people who have been traumatised and by having to listen to them, they start to also see those images or hear screams like in, like famous examples, of course, from 9/11 or from war zones. But it can be anything. Police working, child pornography rings like horrible, horrible cases. But it can also be... It doesn't need to be as extreme. It can also be certain smaller, everyday issues that people experience. And so it's quite common and interpretive as we found. But it's barely been talked about. And lots of interpreters aren't even aware that it is happening to them when it's happening to them. They might realise something's not right but don't really understand that it's vicarious trauma that they are experiencing.

Alex D: [00:19:28] But just on what you said, I think that's also where I first came across the whole term was mostly from interpreters working in conflict zones. So I don't know if that's just a coincidence or maybe there's a relationship there as well.

Sarah: [00:19:40] Well, I'd say that's one of the most common examples to use as well, because if you just think about what people are dealing with in those, they probably have on top of like vicarious trauma, their own trauma to deal with as well. If you're being sent into conflict zones. So that's where one of the very extreme scenarios but also purely because we, as interpreters, in our job have to speak in the first person, we have to mimic the emotions of the speaker. So after a while, just for the brain, it's starting to internalise this. When you say, like, I experienced this, I heard this and, you know, you start to see those people have described seeing images and, you know, not being able to get them out of their heads anymore and just feeling empty afterwards and depressed or even getting panic attacks and stuff like that as well.

Jonathan: [00:20:32] I've never gotten to the point with seeing images but I have had two assignments that I can remember where I actually had to get outside help, because my brain, it just felt like it had gone no more blank afterwards. So there seems that are other levels in the the kinds of vicarious trauma that interpreters experience because a black and white from "yeah, I'm fine too. I've got these images I can't deal with" as they're kind of some set of levels in between maybe?

Sarah: [00:20:59] Definitely, yeah. So I have always just, when people... When I talk to people about this, I use the extremer examples to allow for an easier definition. It's like when people ask me what an interpreter is and I tell them "well, you know, those people are the EU that sit in the background in the booth." That's like, yeah...

Jonathan: [00:21:17] Don't...

Sarah: [00:21:17] That's an easy...

Jonathan: [00:21:17] Do much.

Sarah: [00:21:18] That's an easy example. You know, everyone.

Alex G: [00:21:19] Do you know Alexander Drechsel? That's what I do. 

Sarah: [00:21:22] [Giggling] Yeah. So but yes, of course, there are various levels to what people have experienced. And it can range from people experiencing it in the moment or it lasting for hours for some but for some it lasts for days and months, and some struggle with it for decades. So it depends on how severe the experience was or how often people experience that as well. But yeah, there's a whole range. I wouldn't say there is just like one type of experience. It's one concept but that can it be experienced on all sorts of levels, I guess.

Hannah: [00:21:59] From, so being within a minority oppressed culture that you're interpreting for, actually, for instance, if I'm doing a lot of what's termed in the UK accessed work booking, so you're working, they sometimes term as a designated interpreter. So you're working with the same individual constantly. Week in, week out, which in some ways is great for interpreting perspective to familiarity, knowing the people, jargon, etc. The flip side of that is you're the one that sees all the snide little comments and interprets all snide little comments and that drip, drip, drip, drip of discrimination, the indirect discrimination and that's slowly filtering through. When you're in a situation where your boundaries could get a little bit wobbly because you're in a familiar situation all the time. The combination of those two is kind of right at that greyer end of the scale of vicarious trauma because you're living somebody else's oppression.

Jonathan: [00:22:56] Wow! 

Sarah: [00:22:57] Someone I interviewed as well, he was working in Colombia quite a lot and had to go on trips with the UN as well and go to like these really poor villages. And he said he wanted to break down when this little girl who had lost everything and was just showing them very proudly where they live now. And then a beautiful garden. And he said it was just a pile of dirt and it was completely run down. And it just like hit him out of nowhere where, you know, he came in from this area of privileged and looked at the extreme poverty that the people are experiencing there. Or another person I talked to, she works in a paediatric trauma centre and she has to deal with extremely sick children and children that die all the time. She said she almost... she's at a point where when she sees a child now, she just feels like when she sees a normal child, she's overcome with positive emotions, like almost crying out of happiness because she's not used to seeing healthy children. She just feels like every child is going to die.

Alex D: [00:24:02] Oh, my God.

Sarah: [00:24:03] And there's just, you know, she said sometimes it hits or days later when she's watching a movie, just out of nowhere, bawling crying them. So, yeah, I guess kind of. I mean, I personally haven't experienced that. I just spoke to people who have. But from what I've seen there, you can have all sorts of levels and come out in different ways as well.

Hannah: [00:24:24] I think to answer Jonathan's question a little bit more is that, you can be at the level it is. You can have something sharp and have that "OK, yes, this has hit me and I can pinpoint exactly what it is" versus something like that regular scenario where it's drip, drip, drip and you just suddenly get to the point of that. You walk in the door like, a week or two later, and you want to kick the cat and you can't [Giggling] tell why you want kick the cat.

Jonathan: [00:24:48] Yes.

Hannah: [00:24:49] Or randomly yell at your partner or whatever.

Jonathan: [00:24:51] Yeah.

Hannah: [00:24:51] And it's gotten to the point that your bucket, as it were, has just hit full. And it's that buildup of maybe lots different events like this that I've just got to that point of the, right, and the bucket's gone.

Alex G: [00:25:07] Hmmmm... So I have two quick questions. Well, one of them might be quick. The other one is, might be a bit more extensive. So vicarious trauma, it has to be related to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorders in one way or the other, right? I feel like that there is sort of like an overlap somehow, maybe, maybe not in our profession but.

Sarah: [00:25:25] Well, actually, when when I wrote about it, kind of said that it mimics the symptoms of PTSD because the thing with PTSD is it's still your trauma...

Alex G: [00:25:36] Right. That's...

Sarah: [00:25:36] Whereas...

Alex G: [00:25:36] The point.

Sarah: [00:25:37] This, it's the trauma still happened to someone else. But you are experiencing the same symptoms as someone who is suffering from PTSD.

Alex D: [00:25:47] I think the mimicking is a good word there. Yeah.

Alex G: [00:25:49] Yeah, absolutely, 100 percent. So the second question was I... I wonder, Sarah, if in your research you found that there was a... because I'm trying to think in into my past in the different conferences. I don't really think that there would have been any situation where, you know, I would have been exposed to those kinds of situations that would have caused that vicarious trauma. The only times that I feel like this would have been potentially the case were other situations where I was working with refugees or at hospitals. So it feels like a very PSI [SH: Yeah] when I'm focused. But, you know, it feels like very much PSI topic?

Sarah: [00:26:31] Yeah, when I looked into it, so we looked at the types of interpreting and also the subject areas, let's say, and what we found that was that people like mostly experienced by or most strongly experience or most commonly experience vicarious trauma in community interpreting, medical interpreting and court interpreting and within those in the areas of victims of abuse, child protective services, mental health, refugees and asylum seekers and in the healthcare sector. So I feel like... [AG: It makes sense] Yeah, I also felt like it made sense because those are scenarios where you're, first of all, closer to people. And those people you're talking to come from extremer backgrounds either or are currently in extremer situations. So to me, it also made sense that those were the ones that stood out.

Alex G: [00:27:29] Yeah but do you think, Hannah, that it's more prevalent in the sign language community then, because as you were saying, it's kind of like a jack of all trades and you're kind of working in very different situations, whereas for a spoken language interpreting, you know, the chances of me experiencing vicarious trauma at a finance conversation is ... Sorry, a finance conference... [HW: Hmmm] 

Jonathan: [00:27:49] Yeah.

Alex G: [00:27:49] Is relatively low. So I feel like it's easier for spoken language interpreters to kind of be more aware of, I don't know how to put it but I feel like the risk of experiencing vicarious trauma might be a bit higher, in general, for sign language interpreters.

Hannah: [00:28:05] And I think because there are fewer of us, we tend to get the pointy end of the stick of interpreting assignments more often than not. We are, unfortunately, it is the police assignments, it is the mental health assignments. It is the more emergency end of the spectrum, as it were. You don't tend to get the... unless you... So, for instance, our working with mental health professionals who are deaf, who are going to conferences but they are going to conferences about mental health. So [AG: Right] you then might get services or stories at those that are recorded videos or people talking about their experience. So, again, those can be almost as traumatic if they're being used at conference. They're usually, they're usually more sort of the wellness, someone who is on the road to recovery. So they're less likely to be in crisis, mental health, people that are used as those examples. But you can still have in that situation some quite horrendous stories come at you from left field and it's the "OK, well, it's specifically a mental health conference." So you kind of your brain's already in that ballpark that I think because it is the, it's not the social work visit that's the nice social work visit to the school because it's the preventative side of things. It's the social work visit because it's the team around the child meeting or it's the home visit because the kids are at risk of being taken away from mum. So it can be that sort of sharp end of the stick, as it were. But I think the other side of things and something that I was discussing with Sarah in my interview was that, because the sign language interpreters, we physically embody the language in a way that, for you guys who are spoken language interpreters...

Hannah: [00:29:47] Yeah. If you, if you're interpreting something funny or something quite humorous, you know, your facial expressions will reflect that a bit. But the facial expression for us is our entire tone in sign language. That's how you show a lot of the intonation, how you show a lot of emotion, as well as the physicality of speed, how big you're signing, how small you're signing. All of that is sign language. So it's not just that you're saying 'I', in signing or in spoken English. When you're signing it, you are physically embodying it. And so I would think that triggers the mirror neurons even more because it can't... Like, so, if if you're spoken language interpreting and something really emotional comes up and all the swear left, front and center and you are not in a position to continue interpreting that verbatim. Switching into third person is a lot easier in the spoken language. And yes, I can do that if I'm voicing over. However, if I'm doing in sign language, I would be signing front onto first person. It's... you shift your shoulders to go into third person. That's the only difference. So you're still [AG: Oh wow!] physically embodying all of that language. And a lot of the time, even when you're interpreting into English for a deaf person, you're from back channelling. So you're giving them little signs, so they know where you are in the interpretation. So you're still quite physically embodying the language even more so. And I think that kind of element isn't really... So for me, that mind body connection is so strong that I don't think that side of it is kind of recognised as much.

Jonathan: [00:31:30] I don't think it is that well understood, I mean, the two occasions where I've dealt with traumatic conference interpreting. One of them was traumatic because the people who were speaking were people who I'd known for years and they were talking about a visit to an area where they were going out scouting for a charity. And they were seeing that their express purpose in being there was to find out what was needed. And when they arrived in the area, they found out that there was an entire people group whose only economic activity was sailing their wives and children to prostitution. They obviously didn't show videos of that act but they showed enough pictures and told enough stories. I'm, you know, 20, 50 metres away in an interpreting booth, interpreting. But when is your friends onstage, saying that, or people that you respect and you've known for years, you kind of end up embodying some of that myself and it is to this day, the only time I've ever interpreted while writing a cheque. Because I was like, you know, "we're given the money, I don't care." But it... But it was until after that. And I think, I don't know if sign language interpreters or top level professional does this thing but I was so, I was only about a year after I had finished my masters...

Jonathan: [00:32:45] I interpreted that. And I'd been so entrenched in this professional distance thing that I used that while I was doing the interpreting. I got it when I was at a conference. My whole family were at. I got out of the conference, went to dinner, asked my wife, did they really say and said like one or two things? Then she said, Yes. And I just collapsed at the dinner table. I just couldn't eat because, suddenly, I was aware of what I'd been saying. And that is... so I would agree it is far more common in things like PSI and in sign language interpreting, more generally, in community interpreting. But I think, as conference interpreters, there are occasions, where you know, we're not gonna get our finance conference, we're not gonna get our sales conference. But if you're doing something on, say, social policy or if you're doing any work for a charity, which some interpreted as well, there are some charities who pay conference interpreters to... Do conference interpreting. You're likely to hit that. And I think it's a dangerous myth to say at conference interpreters, it's unlikely to happen yet. It's unlikely to happen but you should that, be aware of it, yeah, you should be aware of it and I think we need the support mechanisms as well.

Sarah: [00:33:56] And when I say that, you know, the three most common types were community, medical and court, it doesn't mean that no one take the conference interpreting box. You know, [JD: Yeah, of course] there were still people who would hit there as well. And like you said, it can depend on the topic. If the UN discusses stuff in detail about war tribunal, you know, war zones or something, I would imagine that can be gruesome details there as well. And since you mentioned the finance debate, actually one of the guys I spoke to for the report I did, he took it maybe a little bit further but he said he remembers one meeting as well where there were a bunch of bankers in a room and he was interpreting for them. And he said that they were basically talking about how they were going to screw people over and that it hit him and that he was like, I'm kind of enabling this. And that he... He felt like he had to deal with this kind of moral component suddenly as well of... like you know... I know, this is taking it maybe a step further from vicarious trauma but he felt like it plays...

Hannah: [00:35:00] I...

Sarah: [00:35:00] A role in it as well.

Hannah: [00:35:02] I would disagree that it doesn't take it further than vicarious trauma because a lot of the time why something is traumatic to you is because it goes against your value system.

Sarah: [00:35:10] Good point, actually, yeah.

Hannah: [00:35:12] So for...

Sarah: [00:35:12] Yeah.

Hannah: [00:35:12] Different people, different things may be traumatic and for instance, the finance conference, they might decide on the middle of the break. Actually, we're doing a massive fund raising thing for this particular charity in this harrowing war torn country. Here, go have the lovely advert showing all the terrible things that are happening there. Finance, finance, finance, UNICEF, finance, [Giggling] for instance. So, yeah...

Alex G: [00:35:34] Very true,

Alex G: [00:35:35] Very true.

Hannah: [00:35:35] Poppy up completely.

Alex G: [00:35:36] I stand corrected.

Jonathan: [00:35:38] But I think the other one, which I had trauma and this time I actually knew, I can email someone that I knew to get help was, it was in the middle of a charity actually talking about their migration policy, which on the... On the face of it, you're like 'policy, great, we can do policy'. But they decided to decide on their international migration policy by having people from all over the world talk about their experiences of migration. And so, you know, the appropriate materials for all reports and stuff. And it was all reports that interpreters can deal with without even thinking about. But when you have... when you're... at one point I was doing onstage kind of sentence by sentence consec for someone who was sharing the core of what migration and several diseases had done to his family. And I'm used to doing kind of 20, 30 minute shifts, 10 minutes of that, I sat back down, grabbed my booth mate and said "you need to take over. "She's like "Why? You've only done ten minutes?" I said "just don't ask, just take over." And that was the one that hit me when I got back to the hotel that evening and just went... My brain just went numb. And I think it's, it's almost easier when you expect it in a sense, you know, if I'd seen that, I'd have gone "yeah OK, fine." You know that you can prepare for it, when it comes out of the blue and you're like "oh right!"

Sarah: [00:36:58] That's a really good point. A bunch of you brought exactly this up with me as well, that they said... It's the worst cases they said are when it's unexpected. When you expect this to be like a tough assignment, at least you can kind of brace yourself and prepare yourself and maybe find some distance beforehand. But when it's just out of nowhere. From what I've been told, it hits, hits people the hardest.

Hannah: [00:37:21] And I think maintaining that sort of distance is even harder when you're interpreting such a small community, such as the deaf community, because it is not a case of six degrees of separation, it's the "oh, I've just bumped into you again in this situation and I saw you last week in this particular situation" needs one or none degrees of separation. And you can be working with the same clients across multiple settings. And so that kind of closeness can maintaining your distance there and how you work with that is, is a lot harder. But at the same time, it's seen as a benefit by the deaf community that you are seen as a deaf ally, that you are someone who isn't just using them as an interpreter. So swings and roundabouts to that but that kind of professional distance thing. I mean, there are lots of other professions where you would get kicked off the register for sleeping with your client. Yet quite a lot of sign language interpreters are married to deaf people.

Jonathan: [00:38:22] [Chuckling]

Hannah: [00:38:22] They just try [Laughing] not to interpret...

Alex D: [00:38:24] That...

Hannah: [00:38:24] For them.

Alex D: [00:38:24] That, that...

Hannah: [00:38:28] At their hospital appointments.

Jonathan: [00:38:30] I think [SH: Giggling] I actually know a couple as well actually. Yeah, in fact, I do know at least one.

Hannah: [00:38:35] Yep! [Chuckling]

Jonathan: [00:38:35] There it is. [AD: Laughing] So the thing is, my understanding and conference interpreters, my fellow conference interpreters might disagree with me. My understanding is the professional distance discussion, I believe, is originally a conference interpreting discussion precisely because of where conference interpreting came from. Is it even a... And this links very closely with vicarious trauma. Is it an useful term in something like sign language interpreting where your trauma is coming from the fact that the professional distance of however you want to define it as breaking down? Is it a better way of discussing it that may help people come to terms with vicarious trauma more easily than talking about distance?

Hannah: [00:39:18] Well, I was, I was trying to rack my brain and I don't think professional distance, quote unquote, was used in my training... OK, I cast my mind back eleven years ago. But [Chuckling] as a term, yes, impartiality was drilled into us of that very much. Yes...

Alex D: [00:39:35] Jonathan's favourite term.

Hannah: [00:39:35] You were there but... [Laughing]

Jonathan: [00:39:39] Had to try it free for a minute.

Hannah: [00:39:40] You, you, when you are interpreting at the doctor's surgery because you have to sit next to the GPs. The deaf person can see both of you in their eye line. You put your chair back from the GPs, so that you will not on the same level as them. OK, that's not the point. But as they say, you are not distracting them. So those kind of stuff around that. As a, as a method if, yes, you kind of put it in the box in your head when you're interpreting and you deal with it later. Was, it was the sort of the unspoken bit of that, yeah.

Jonathan: [00:40:13] Ohhh, that goes against every single piece of mental health advice Justine Mason told us in the podcast.

Hannah: [00:40:17] [Chuckling] 

Hannah: [00:40:19] But it is the "you turn up, you do your job, you come away", and it was when I was listening to that episode of Justine, I can't remember which of the answers it was, saying about not wanting to do VRI because you wouldn't have your booth mate. For sign language interpreters, we are on our own most of the time, having a co-interpreter would be in the rare conference setting, teams for court.

Alex D: [00:40:45] Hmmm... That's a big thing though, yeah.

Hannah: [00:40:47] And, and only in those big all day settings, most of the rest of the time you are on your own, so you could if it's... If you're a rural interpreter, you might not have seen another sign language interpreter for a good few months. And so that you're sort of, you're in the deaf community but you're not. And even if you've grown up in the community, you're what's known as a coder, a child of deaf adults. You were in the community but when you're interpreting, you're not, and so there's that really odd line of, yes, you're trying to maintain your distance. So that is seen as we are not the missionaries who originally you sign language and we were the helpers and we're not signers yuck... ish. You know, we're all professionals sign language interpreters. So, yes, you are trying to maintain a boundary but that can be taken so far of the... Well, I do not step outside this boundary, it becomes too rigid. And that's where it's the whole "OK, yeah, I'll mentally shut it in the mental wardrobe and deal with it later." Brackets, never!

Alex G: [00:41:55] Yeah but I think like the whole code interpreters situation that you were talking about is, is actually a crucial factor because, you know, speaking for conferences, it doesn't have to be a traumatic conference. But just as if it's a very stressful conference or if, I don't know, you were upset by someone. If it was very stressful, if it's been a really long day, just bitching to your booth mate about it helps so much. Like decompresses you so much that that alone really processes a lot of the negative emotions that you would be going through at that particular moment.

Alex D: [00:42:27] Certainly, yeah.

Alex G: [00:42:27] So that's a really...

Hannah: [00:42:29] Yeah.

Alex G: [00:42:29] Yeah.

Hannah: [00:42:29] So, not having that for sign language interpreters, it's no wonder that they're getting the "why some of the group of sign language interpreters always get together, they always end up down the pub, they always end up completely rat-arsed?" And... They always... [Alex G: Well, I think that might be an interpreter thing]

Hannah: [00:42:44] End up sharing stories.

Hannah: [00:42:46] Yeah, but but...

Jonathan: [00:42:47] Teetotal, teetotal.

Hannah: [00:42:49] [Laughing] But OK, from my experience today, that was sign language interpreters, isn't it? That's the... Because we're even more isolated from each other. That is, you know, you get a group, a gaggle or a flock, whatever the collective noun [Alex G: Giggling] of interpreters is. [Giggling]

Alex G: [00:43:03] I like a gaggle of interpreters.

Hannah: [00:43:05] You get a gaggle of interpreters together and that is the... It becomes then this space for the... You know what I'm on about, yuck! And off the chest it comes. And whilst I don't disagree with the power of a good vent. And sometimes my partner can get that... If they... Just walked in the door, my trains back from London have been hell. Aaagghh moment. Beyond venting, it doesn't then get you anywhere. It doesn't. It releases the pressure valve briefly. But then the next time you're in that sort of stressful situation, how do you deal with it?

Alex G: [00:43:40] Right.

Sarah: [00:43:40] I would just add that I thought it was interesting you mentioned venting to someone else because a few people talked about having a debrief partner being a helpful tool. So I'm not in the same language community or maybe as well, because in the survey that we did, there were lots and lots of respondents from all types of interpreting. And this was one of the tools mentioned by a few people. And what Hannah will talk about later about a more detailed professional supervision, definitely takes that a good step further. But it's not established everywhere yet. So for those who don't have that... At their fingertips at the moment anyway. Lots of people recommended having a certain debrief partner because one of the problems as well in our profession is the aspect of confidentiality. We all have to handle the information confidentially. And so that already made some people feel like they cannot talk to anyone, not even their fellow colleagues, interpreting colleagues, unless they were maybe on the same assignment. But by having a debrief partner, it can be like an agreement between two interpreters to maybe talk about how someone felt on a certain assignment, how it affected them but without giving anything away that's confidential and to have this kind of agreement of just being the listener as well. Yeah, this is something that a bunch of people mentioned to me.

Alex D: [00:45:10] Yeah, I have a sort of a kind of related question... because we talked about how a sort of your booth mate can, you know, be a little bit of a... Or can help you release pressure and frustration and that kind of thing. But if we take that away for a moment, I mean, how other ways for individual interpreters to sort of recognise signs of something might be off something... Something is occupying their mind sort of in a more intense way than usual, for example, because, I mean, there's stress. And then there's burnout. And then there's, you know, vicarious trauma. So how... How can we sort of get a better grasp of what's going on with ourselves?

Sarah: [00:45:51] Yeah, well, that's a good question. I think the key to all of this is raising awareness on all levels, ideally, and then we need to... From what our survey showed, we need to raise awareness among, first of all, the interpreting communities. So like you're not even aware that this is a thing that even happens to them, that they're not the only ones. In fact, in our survey out of the... We had over a hundred and seven respondents and one third of them had experienced this before. So it's quite...

Alex D: [00:46:21] That's...

Sarah: [00:46:22] Common.

Alex D: [00:46:22] A lot, yeah.

Sarah: [00:46:24] Oh no, actually, two thirds. Sorry, that's even more. [Giggling]

Alex D: [00:46:28] Wow.

Sarah: [00:46:30] And... That's the one thing, so amongst interpreters then, I think it needs to be brought up in interpreter training as well. And ideally, it should also be on the minds of people who hire interpreters. So especially if you're looking at... like, someone I interviewed, she works in this paediatric trauma centre, which is essentially a hospital where all the medical staff get constant support. But none of the interpreters do... Because it's not even on their minds that the interpreters could be affected, even though they're going in with the doctors into the same scenario. And our experience and maybe, on some level, is more intense, like you said, with the... You know, speaking the first person, mimicking the emotions.

Alex D: [00:47:11] But that's the whole thing, right?

Sarah: [00:47:12] Yeah.

Alex D: [00:47:12] I mean, you just say what they said, quote unquote. And so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Sarah: [00:47:18] Exactly. And this goes back to, I think, probably the profession in general being misunderstood still. But I do think to attack this we need to have two things. And one is that raising awareness on all these different levels and then the other to establish better support systems for interpreters.

Hannah: [00:47:36] I think as well, sort of, when you're saying can you recognise symptoms because stress to burn out vicarious trauma. Actually, it's on a sliding scale in terms of how you experience and how...

Alex D: [00:47:48] Exactly, yeah.

Hannah: [00:47:49] One of the Alex's would experience say more their symptoms might look like might be a very depressive type symptom for them it's being... Been withdrawn from family. It's not wanting to engage with people, it's retreating into their emotions. Whereas the other Alex, it could be more on the lines of stress responses. So it's gonna be different for different individuals. And what they're symptomatic would be of the "OK, I've actually experience something really bad. How do I know that in myself?" So it's whilst it's making it more knowledgeable out there of the "you're interpreting, you're experiencing those emotions and it's OK because they're going through you." That wasn't taught in my training. It was language, language, language, technical that the rest of the stuff around it. I mean, these days I say interpreting is one third language, one third people skills and one third flying by the seat of your pants.

Alex D: [00:48:43] I like that last thought [Giggling]. That's good!

Jonathan: [00:48:45] Sorry, I'm... I'm just celebrating here in the corner because I've been saying that for the past six years. [SH: Giggling]

Alex D: [00:48:52] We need to get that on a T-shirt at some point. [HW: Giggling]

Jonathan: [00:48:54] Well, my... my old motto, my new motto is interpreting as interpreting, which I love because I upset so many people. [AD: Giggling] But my new motto is my old motto used to be. And when I started, I thought interpreting was about language skills with people attached. Now I realise it's people skills [SH: Giggling] with languages attached.

Alex G: [00:49:13] Aaahh... You haven't said that in so long.

Jonathan: [00:49:15] I haven't...

Alex D: [00:49:15] Drinking game! [Giggling]

Jonathan: [00:49:16] Said that in so long, and I haven't even, I haven't even said controversial for about 15 episodes.

Alex G: [00:49:21] Well, Alex and I do it now for you.

Jonathan: [00:49:23] But I think this is the thing... Is that... When I was doing my PhD, I came across this lovely quote from performance studies, which I really like. And I think the interpreters shared a lot in common with performers. In fact, we are by any definition. And Richard Schechner said that the... That the way the performer works is "they are not me but not not me." [AD: Laughing] And they say, you know, a performer would say is not me because I've got a script or because I've got a character that I'm acting out. But it's not not me, because it's still me doing the acting. And I find that really helpful in interpreting that... When I'm interpreting, I'm not me because it's someone else's meetings of someone else's words. But I'm not not me because when the words come out, the're still coming out of my mouth.

Alex D: [00:50:07] I feel like I need to listen to this at half speed, like 10 times [Giggling]...

Alex G: [00:50:10] Yeah, totally!

Alex D: [00:50:11] Before...

Sarah: [00:50:11] A lot of not nots in there.

Alex D: [00:50:11] I can process this [Giggling].

Alex D: [00:50:14] Yeah.

Jonathan: [00:50:14] Not me but not not me.

Alex D: [00:50:17] Yeah, yeah.

Sarah: [00:50:18] But no, I got it.

Hannah: [00:50:19] And... That's actually where the amount of sign language interpreters I know who can get up on stage and do performance interpreting or conference or platform stuff and can stand up there and be seen. It's because they're not being seen as themselves.

Alex D: [00:50:32] Mm hmm. Good point, yeah. We should tell that to the students who are afraid of public speaking or public signing in that case.

Hannah: [00:50:39] Yeah, that they are being seen as the other person because that is what is coming out. But actually that because it is you but not you, is where that mind body connection gets completely confused because it only knows what you're experiencing. It can't tell but it's not your words, not your experience. So you're experiencing it firsthand. It's like the whole stress response these days is the "it was built into us" because it was the "oh look, there's a rustle in the bush, oh it might be saber-toothed tiger, run." These days, that applies to the "oh, have I forgotten to lock the door?" or, you know, "my best friend called me up." Whatever. And your brain can't differentiate between actual threat and thought threat. So for that, the same thing to be happening with that sort of interpreted content. I think that's where the emotional side of it. You know, we're recruited and trained around the technical skills.

Alex D: [00:51:38] Almost exclusively, yeah.

Hannah: [00:51:39] But. How you deal with people, what your response is, the fact that your interpretation is your understanding through your lens and your lens is made up of your experience growing up, your cultural experiences. All of that is going to be affecting how I would interpret something as on language versus my colleague standing next to me. You might have a fraction different understandings for a slightly different schema. And none of that is looked at or impact how we are in ourselves as interpreters. And I think a lot of that can be well when we're coming against things that are traumatic because they go against our value system. Well, a lot of our ethical decision making is value-based. Yes, we have codes but, especially in sign language interpreting, means ours is a very thou must, thou shalt, finger on high. Not, not... going to go over into that but that is very rigid way of trying to decide things. So actually you don't that you know, the common answer is it depends. But what does it depend on? Yes, you've got a whole load of factors but actually your decision is coming from your underneath the iceberg, as I call it, your unseen history, your unseen structures. That's where you're going to get your clash of the will. I might find this more traumatic than you do because of what's under there.

Jonathan: [00:53:01] Yeah, I had the... The last time I experienced vicarious trauma, what really surprised me, so I was doing French to English. There was a guy doing relay from English into Spanish. And I don't know whether it was because I was doing relay or whatever but I was chatting to the guy who was on duty doing the Spanish, and he didn't find it traumatic at all. He's like "yeah, just gone and did it." And for him, there was no effect. And I thought, this is really interesting. You have two interpreters interpreting the same stuff. One has to stop after ten minutes the handover and to take like the entire next shift of his booth mate just to get ready to interpret again. And the other one, just shrug it off and just go on with life. And I think that's really fascinating because it shows that the humanity of the interpreter is so, so important.

Hannah: [00:53:52] And that's where as well, when we come back to sort of thinking about buckets. I... I stole that as a thing from more sort of it's a psychosis model of why some people can cope with more or less than other people can. Some people have bigger buckets than other people.

Jonathan: [00:54:09] And your... Your bucket gets subdivided as well, so, you know, it may be that in general you can cope with more but that's just one little button that if anyone presses at that, so you're gone.

Hannah: [00:54:19] Yeah, and in those situations, it's the "OK, my bucket is usually this big" but you give me that topic and everything from underneath my iceberg is already filled me up to ninety nine point nine percent. So you give me the little splash of the actual content and "boom".

Sarah: [00:54:33] Yeah, and plus, I mean, in communication, even just normal, average, non-traumatic communication, we always filter what's been said through our own experiences like and I already said so it hits you in different ways and I forgive them. I'm super emotional person. I'm very emotional. I cry at baby commercials and all that kind of type of person [AG: Laughing]. And even an interpreter practice. I remember we were interpreting the speech from Emma Watson at the UN.

Alex D: [00:55:04] Oh, yeah, that...

Alex G: [00:55:04] Oh...

Alex D: [00:55:04] Was...

Alex G: [00:55:04] Wow!

Alex D: [00:55:04] A good one.

Alex G: [00:55:05] Yeah.

Sarah: [00:55:05] Yeah. And I... [Giggling] Stopped interpreting. Everyone has turned around and looks at me because I wasn't crying but I was having these moments of like "OK..." You know, holding my breath and like swallowing really noisily because I was getting very emotional because for me... It feels like a very personal topic. And so this wasn't traumatic but it was already having an impact. So I think, you know, this shows how it affects people differently. Maybe if a guy had done anything like that, this is cool or whatever. But, you know, it doesn't bother me so much, as for me it's like this is an important topic. And it makes me very emotional. But I think something else to point out or that I would like to point out is also that this affects like the interpreting industry also on different levels. So on the one hand, you have the impact on the interpreters directly, which is of course, I mean purely from the humanity of it, the most important, the most severe that we need to look at. But also, if you want to take it further with people who hire interpreters, it's not like they should shrug it off again. First of all, they should be, you know, good people about it. But also, if that's not enough of an argument, it does affect like interpreters fill rates as well. And, you know, it's like because, for example, our survey showed as well that every third interpreter who experienced vicarious trauma, at least in our survey, had to either take a prolonged leave of absence...

Alex D: [00:56:37] I was going

Sarah: [00:56:37] Whereas...

Alex D: [00:56:37] To get to that. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Sarah: [00:56:40] Yeah. Or stopped taking certain assignments or some also even left the profession because they couldn't deal with it anymore.

Alex D: [00:56:47] Yeah, imagine that. Wow. Sshhh...

Sarah: [00:56:50] So I feel like, you know, sometimes I think, OK, I feel like I'm coming in from two angles. I'm, you know, I come from the academic side, I'm an interpreter myself. And now I'm interpreting researcher for Nimdzi Insights. And of course, we largely also look at the business impact. But yeah, I feel like this is really a topic that maybe from the outside looks like it's just affecting interpreters on the personal level but it does also have an impact on the business, which in a way, almost like if we can highlight the more it gives me a bit more hope that we can help that change with it. When people also realize from that side of it that it is a topic to deal with that goes beyond people just you know, again, the humanity would be on the forefront for me. But if people don't want to see that there is another side to it that might help drive the change at least.

Jonathan: [00:57:41] I mean, I've talked to a counsellor who occasionally works with interpreters. His sudden realisation was "well, if the interpreters don't have a coping mechanism, they can't deliver the interpreting that I need them to deliver."

Sarah: [00:57:53] Yeah, good point.

Jonathan: [00:57:54] And that's a very basic thing of "if they're not coping in this situation and they're not trained to cope in the situation, they can't do the job."

Hannah: [00:58:02] Mm hmm.

Jonathan: [00:58:03] And that's, I mean, I need to be careful because we finished the project in February with the NHS and the police and people. And this idea that when you get an appreciation all round of what it is interpreters are doing, and that's we know from other research as well. When the people working with interpreters understand what is the interpreters are doing and what they need to do it well, everyone benefits. [SH: Absolutely!] And I don't need to say any particular study because there are so many studies there. And it's making the case for, you know, we're not asking you to make allowance for people who are inherently weak or bad that your job. We're asking you to take people who are already fantastic and allow them to get access to the tools that will allow them to go on being fantastic tomorrow. And if we can phrase it like that, it's much easier for clients to go "that's why I should invest in this" because it is going to mean a financial and time investment. There's no doubt about that. But we can help, you know, interpreting buyers see, if you want your interpreting to be cost effective in six months time, put in the hard work now, so that interpreters have the support we need to all all along the way. And that may, it makes more sense to people that way. [AD: Yeah, totally]

Hannah: [00:59:14] But when they're seen as freelance or essentially contractors, even though there are some places that I work out quite regularly and have a sign language interpreting team in there that is fairly consistent and consists of regulars, we're not employed in that situation. Yes, we were on the ground. We worked very closely with professionals that are all conceded an extension of the team. But in practice, further up the chain, we're not, we're independent contractors. So what responsibility do we have?

Jonathan: [00:59:41] Mm hmm. I mean, that I hate to say it but that means discussions over the gig economy, it actually gonna start opening that up. There's also an argument, and I don't want to go too far down here. But one of the ways of helping interpreters with the vicarious trauma is possibly to campaign, in some circumstances there's an interpreter within the organisation somewhere on staff whose job is to manage the interpreting as someone who knows what they're doing and who knows the support that is needed. And that I think there's been several people suggesting that. I know there's been a project in Australia where they brought all of the interpreters in the hospital for all of their most common languages. You don't look to staff and immediately saw a cost saving. And I thought that's interesting that they bring everyone on staff to give them all the support the staff get. And suddenly it becomes cheaper and they get better at interpreting for less money.

Hannah: [01:00:33] Works when you've got a few thousand [Giggling] of the...

Jonathan: [01:00:36] Yes.

Hannah: [01:00:36] Language interpreters.

Jonathan: [01:00:38] Yeah.

Hannah: [01:00:38] When you've got twelve hundred spread out across the country!

Jonathan: [01:00:40] It becomes more difficult, yes.

Hannah: [01:00:42] And that's almost where you can then use a different top down approach that's needed to say, actually, maybe it's coming from the regulatory body that says "OK, we're man making professional supervision mandatory", for example, and coming in at from a different angle, because sometimes you talk, talking to more experience interpreters. That's been the "why do I need to go and talk to someone about my work?" You know, I've been fine for 20 years. What, have you really? Do you really know what's going on with you and how you're operating in your work and what you've been experiencing?

Alex D: [01:01:16] I guess that's that's a thing... We're sort of passing that by a little bit earlier. I think it's sort of about the prevention of what we can do to sort of be, I mean, we said, yeah, awareness is important. People need to know about this. But how can I be sort of mindful of what's going on or is there anything I can do to sort of lessen the impact or, you know, maybe get more resilience, that kind of thing?

Hannah: [01:01:39] Resilience, yuck. So... There's a literal sign [SH: Giggling] that is grow thick skin.

Jonathan: [01:01:44] It is.

Hannah: [01:01:46] That's told repeatedly to sign language interpreters when we're, at the point I did my training, that hopefully has changed a little bit. But it's just the "grow thick skin, you'll be fine." No, just just no. And also going back to what I was saying about different people experiencing in different ways. Sometimes you can't always spot it within yourself.

Alex D: [01:02:03] Yeah, exactly. It can be difficult.

Hannah: [01:02:05] And so that's where I would say for me, working with a professional supervisor. Because you would have monthly meetings because you're seeing the same person, because it's a boundaried relationship, confidential, trusting. As the supervisor, you get to know your supervisees. You... Spot when they aren't quite their usual selves. And it's the sense of what's going on for you at the moment. And then you get what's happening for them and you can start to unpick it. It is also using that as a way. So, for instance, I'm someone who, having experienced depression and anxiety in my own life, has gone through an awful lot of therapy, which was indirectly why I ended up training as a supervisor, because for me, self-awareness has been absolutely key that I absolutely still have my own blind spots. I don't always spot everything going on to me or hot spots where I just can't get that close on my own because it's just too hot the topic for me to deal with on my own. So having somebody else who has that distance by a professional boundary way with the tools and the skill set to be able to go "I noticed you keep getting this close to it." And then you're buggering off. And... So those are the topics that especially if you're interpreting in that sort of environment regularly or it might be specially with community interpreting but maybe, maybe with conference, if there's a regular speaker who the minute they stand up, you're like: [Harrumph] and you roll your eyes and you "oh it's them again."

Alex D: [01:03:28] Him again, yeah. [Chuckling]

Hannah: [01:03:30] Yeah. But that reaction... Yes, it could be...

Alex D: [01:03:35] I may have had that today. [Chuckling]

Alex G: [01:03:36] Yeah, I might have had that today too. [Laughing]

Hannah: [01:03:38] So it could be, yes, they always speak in a monotone, yes, they you know, they speak five minutes before you've actually got any content to interpret. It could be some of the technical stuff. It could also be your internal reaction to them and subconsciously they remind you of your primary school teacher that you hated.

Alex D: [01:04:00] Oh god, yeah [Chuckling]. [AG: Laughing] That's an interesting angle.

Hannah: [01:04:02] Or vice versa. It could be someone you really, really liked. And because that's an unconscious reaction that can bias your interpretation. And they might come across sounding nicer than they actually are or more of a huh! Than they actually are. And so some of that going on underneath, picking out where he's saying, you know, actually it's more about people skills. Actually, we are taking, you know, the best of times, me trying to have a conversation with my partner about something and both of us: "I thought you said that." "No, I thought you said that." And that's two of us direct. And we're channelling that through us and all of that stuff underneath the surface and those interpersonal reactions that are going through our intra, what's going on inside us. Intrapersonal reaction. That's where a lot of all of this stuff comes up of the "oh", eye-roll, "it's them again."

Alex D: [01:04:54] I'm just, yeah, I'm just wondering with him, I'm thinking sort of the stereotypical freelance conference interpreter who's, you know, was always busy, always going to assignments and who say: "yeah, you know, it's on... Sounds great but I just don't have the time." How how do I do this and...

Alex G: [01:05:11] Are you talking...

Alex D: [01:05:11] That?

Alex G: [01:05:12] About me?

Alex D: [01:05:12] No. [Giggling] And...

Jonathan: [01:05:14] Yes,

Alex D: [01:05:14] Then you...

Jonathan: [01:05:15] Yes. Yes, we are.

Alex G: [01:05:16] I feel like you're talking about me.

Alex D: [01:05:18] No, I'm actually not... And we say "OK, this sounds good" but I don't see how this would fit with my lifestyle, with the way I approach my work, that there's no person I know that could be the supervisor. I don't know.

Hannah: [01:05:35] So my response would be that quite a few of us professional supervisors would offer appointments supervising. So, you know, Friday night. Well, OK, maybe not Friday night but you know, international Internet available. There are quite a few of us that work in that way. So the time an hour a month out of your life to keep your career for the rest of your life.

Alex D: [01:05:59] Choke, yeah.

Alex G: [01:06:03] That's a good sales pitch. 

Jonathan: [01:06:03] That as a quotable quote, if ever I heard one. [HW: Chuckling] But I think this is the thing is that this awareness raising thing. There's a couple of levels. And I wondered if you could kind of speak to a couple of levels. The first thing they're phrasing is that it's OK to not be OK. And how do we do that? And then awareness raising as to how to know when you need help and how to find it. Could you kind of give us a sense of what would you say to the people who are struggling? I certainly know when I started interpreting, the idea that it was OK to not be OK was new and difficult. And also the idea that there might be more than one strategy and, you know, I probably didn't even know one when I was there. What can we... How can we raise people's awareness about that?

Hannah: [01:06:54] So in some ways, it's going back into when interpreters are training and going "look, professional supervision, yes." Counsellors who are trained supervisors and as a note, if you did look outside the interpreting profession for a supervisor. Not all counsellors are trained supervisors. Sometimes they will say they're a supervisor by their experience. They've not had the additional training. It is different from a counseling role. But those of us that are interpreters that are trained to supervisors is relatively new. So it's not very well known that there are interpreters who can supervise you in this way and that as a monthly ongoing could be slightly more or less depending on how much interpreting you're doing. But as a regular relationship that you're touching base with, that is a preventative thing. And I work with some interpreters who most of the time it's the "I don't really feel like I've brought anything this time I'm seeing you, Hannah. Oh, is an hour gone already? Oh, OK!"

Alex D: [01:07:50] It's like a podcast.

Hannah: [01:07:51] Yeah [Chuckling]. So from that perspective, it can... that is a thing. It's also I think some of it is the general climate we're in of it being more OK to own your feelings and that being the general awareness thing. But I think bringing that emotional human side into interpreting training, even if it is just a bit of a brief, OK, we've got all of this going on and the interpreting models need to be more than just the language input/output or particularly bit in the middle.

Alex D: [01:08:20] I'm wondering if that was if that sort of showed up in your research as well, Sarah. Do you think this would have been more difficult, like five or 10 years ago to get replies from people or people opening up, sharing this kind of thing?

Sarah: [01:08:36] I would assume so but I can't really say because to be honest, I found like the research in this particular field in combination with like an especially in combination with interpreters was more or less nonexistent. There was one other company that I could find that was doing something about it and are offering training as well for interpreters to deal with it. A company called Master Word in the US. But yeah, this was part of the reason why we decided to do research on it as well because there was a definite lack of knowledge in this area. But I feel like it would make sense to me because we are... Well, that is a fantastic thing overall as a society heading more into that direction of, you know, only being aware of your feelings and not be ashamed of them. Allowing yourself to deal with them and communicate them. But at the same time, we have so much more work to do in the society, in general, and then to even bring this in for interpreting as well. I mean, bring this end in terms of awareness is like a lot of people that sort of looked into lots of aspects of this. And when we asked people, were you aware what was happening to you when it happened, when you experienced vicarious trauma and like some... There were a good few, I kind of... I don't know the exact number in my head now. But who said that they did not realise what was happening to them until way later when it got much, much worse. So I feel like even if you may not be able to fully prevent it, it could already be a step forward for people to be aware that this is a thing that could happen to them so that they can intervene earlier.

Alex D: [01:10:15] Yeah. 

Hannah: [01:10:16] And I think as well, when I remember a lot of the examples that from... The very early sign language interpreters who are now teaching, who are there at the forefront of it becoming a professionalisation. They didn't have the tools themselves or the knowledge of the understanding to how to deal with things. So, was "oh, you just grow a thick skin and that's how you deal with it." They were passing on the only attempt and coping strategies and mechanisms they had and they knew. So whereas actually now if it's role modelled on the experiences and the examples that are given and put out there, they are of the "OK, you have these sorts of experiences and this is how it can affect you." And actually, at the end of the day, yes, you are there to do an interpreting job but you are, I am there as Hannah. And that needs to be more of the angle of consideration where a lot of this comes from. Of the... If this is the career you want to be doing for the rest of your life or the rest of your working life.

Alex D: [01:11:11] Yeah, ideally.

Hannah: [01:11:13] What that interaction looks like and how I look after myself and how I resource myself and what skills and strategies I used to be able to go "OK, I'm starting to get close to this level" or "I know this type of booking is more likely to affect me", whereas John might be able to go in and do it. And that's no problem for him. So it's building that within yourself and getting to know that for yourself as you go through that journey. But some of that would start from earlier seed dropping around the "you are there, you are going to be impacted." Know it. Acknowledge it. Know that that's OK. To be impacted. But let's start talking about what we can do to help that.

Jonathan: [01:11:53] The jobs that I've actually felt the most professional satisfaction from in the most personal satisfaction from have been precisely jobs like those two, where there has been an element of ... you know, an element of "you're making a difference". But because you're making a difference, you carry some of the difficulties along with it.

Hannah: [01:12:15] It's been more aligned with your values.

Jonathan: [01:12:17] Yeah, yeah, because it's aligned with your values. Suddenly, you know, I don't ever remember walking away from an AGM going, you know, yoo-hoo that's massively life changing. Usually you... You walk away from an AGM going "I'm glad I'm getting paid."

Alex D: [01:12:32] You really don't like AGMs, do you?

Jonathan: [01:12:35] I really, ah... [Giggling] See, I love jobs where I can make a difference and the difference you make at AGMs is... I'm not sure! But...

Hannah: [01:12:43] Well...

Jonathan: [01:12:43] Be...

Hannah: [01:12:44] Then that's the shadow side of us, for all the interpreting is not seen as a helping perfection. Actually, we are there because we want to make a difference. We give a voice to people who might not have their full voice in that situation. And so the shadow side of that is that's coming from a desire and a need to help.

Jonathan: [01:13:01] And so where you feel you are helping in some way, whether it's to help someone, you know, negotiate a business deal or wherever. You... There is gonna be something that from you that links into that and it could be that you walk away so dribbling, it's amazing. But even that needs to be watched because you can get... I do remember having one assignment when I was over the moon because it done so well. And I tell people get get multi-million pound deal. And then I was like, well, what now? And as soon as you come back down the mountain, you can have this crash and you go, "oh", yeah. And it is managing this. I don't know about you, Alex Gansmeier but I mean, this inevitable kind of wave that you sometimes can surf as an interpreter from "great job!" Or notes "finance next". You know, and just do... How riding that can be quite difficult sometimes.

Alex G: [01:13:53] Yeah, I'm trying to think.

Jonathan: [01:13:57] Like if you come from an amazing job to one that bores your trousers off.

Alex D: [01:14:01] He doesn't have those [Giggling]

Alex G: [01:14:03] No, I definitely do have those, trust me. I definitely...

Alex D: [01:14:06] Yeah,

Alex G: [01:14:06] Have...

Alex D: [01:14:06] We all do.

Alex G: [01:14:07] Those boring jobs. But then it's just kind of... Like it doesn't affect me personally, is just like...

Jonathan: [01:14:13] Interesting!

Alex G: [01:14:14] Bored out of my mind. But then I'm thinking, "OK, well, this is the job for the day and then tomorrow could be something different".

Alex D: [01:14:19] Plus 1, yeah.

Alex G: [01:14:20] So...

Alex G: [01:14:21] I just kind of roll with the punches on that.

Hannah: [01:14:23] Some of that may be how much you invest of yourself personally. As you know, is the typical thing in our culture is the "oh, this is so and so" and they are an interpreter [AD: Giggling] and you get defined by your job. So your sense of self-worth can get really tied up with how well that jobs gone or how much you're personally invested in that job or not. And so some of that being able to disentangle that and look at that and have the moment of the "hang on, I've done two separate appointments that on the face of it, so completely similar and why am I walking away from the second one feeling like I want to strangle the bloody client?" And... There'll be things about how they are as a person. All the different perspectives they have on the topic that's triggering something in you. That's then that difference between the "well, that one was OK and that one I wanted to strangle them".

Alex G: [01:15:16] Yeah, completely. 

Jonathan: [01:15:16] Alex, do you ever get that with your staff work that you go from, you know, great to or no great to "oh, no". Or does it just... Is everything so flat because you're so familiar with what you're doing?

Alex D: [01:15:26] No, no. There's definitely a set of things that I like doing more than others. And you get the boring days and the really exciting days. But yeah, I was thinking about how that changes the equation between staff interpreters and freelance interpreters but probably probably not. Not that much. I don't know.

Alex G: [01:15:43] Yeah, I wouldn't... 

Sarah: [01:15:44] So one more thing I wanted to point out before I might have to sign off [Giggling] if you don't mind. [AG: Sure!] So, something else that I found really interesting in the report that we did was this basically the long term effects for people. So... Because I think this is important to point out too. You know, there's always cynics out there who would go like, well, you know, deal with it! So what you were a little bit, you know, depressed for a day or two. And that's like, first of all, we all know that that is not the case but you know what I mean. I found it really interesting that we actually found that so many people have long term effects on this as well. And the one that stood out the most was people's outlook on life...

Alex D: [01:16:23] Hmmm...

Sarah: [01:16:24] That was...

Alex D: [01:16:24] Don't know.

Sarah: [01:16:24] Severely affected by this. For example, I guess one example was this woman I interviewed as well with the sick children, how she sees all these kids now as well. They're just going to die anyway. And should I have children now or, you know, something like that? Or the guy in Colombia who had to interpret for the police who was domesticating a child pornography ring and he starting to... He said, question everything. Faith, humanity, his own role as a man in society, things like that. But also, people have said that it has to be for somebody has impacted their relationships, their personality and their behaviour as well. So, I feel like it shows that it really does cut very deep and that it's not just the you know, "I can brush this off" and "you'll be fine again later". I mean, for some... for some, that might be the case. Though they might just keep it as a bad memory. But I found it really interesting to see how it can really profoundly impact people in the long term as well.

Alex G: [01:17:29] But I think that's in general a really good summary of the whole topic anyways. Because I feel like it's deeply personal and it won't affect anyone the same way. But everybody should be aware that it potentially can affect you in a plethora of different ways.

Alex D: [01:17:41] Yeah, it's...

Alex G: [01:17:41] So...

Alex G: [01:17:42] Everybody should be aware...

Alex D: [01:17:43] All the...

Alex G: [01:17:43] Of...

Alex D: [01:17:43] More...

Alex G: [01:17:43] It.

Alex D: [01:17:43] Reason to sort of take it seriously and yeah,

Alex G: [01:17:46] Exactly, yeah.

Alex D: [01:17:46] And work through...

Alex G: [01:17:46] Yeah.

Alex D: [01:17:46] It. And not...

Alex G: [01:17:48] So...

Alex D: [01:17:48] Just...

Alex G: [01:17:48] If...

Alex D: [01:17:48] Grow a...

Alex G: [01:17:48] You're listening...

Alex D: [01:17:48] Thick skin.

Alex G: [01:17:50] Exactly! If you're listening, don't just grow a thick skin. [Giggling]

Hannah: [01:17:54] And... Even if you have the moments of the "oh, I'm still feeling a bit yuck!" But, you know, "oh, it'll go away". No, your brain...

Alex D: [01:18:02] Not...

Hannah: [01:18:02] Doesn't...

Alex D: [01:18:02] Necessarily, yeah.

Hannah: [01:18:02] Deal with it like that. If... [JD: Yeah] If you don't deal with it, if you don't get it out in a healthy way, if you don't, then be able to develop strategies about it, the next time that that particular speaker gets up on stage. I would roll my eyes at them again or strangle them. [SH: Giggling] Actually, no, this time, I know it's my reaction to them. I've got a different way I can think about this. I've got a different way I can approach. I've got some personalised strategies up my sleeve. Not just the generic "yes, look after yourself physically, get regular massages, eat healthily, get your 8 hours sleep", generic self-care stuff. Now, this this is self. This is professional self-care. This is what works for you. That means the next time you're in those sorts of situations, you can deal with them differently and ultimately keep your career healthy.

Alex G: [01:18:50] Now, that's a wrap up, if I ever heard one. [Laughing]

Alex D: [01:18:53] That was very professional.

Alex G: [01:18:55] That was awesome!

Alex D: [01:18:58] And I'm glad you could stick around, Sarah. [Giggling]

Sarah: [01:19:02] Yeah, well, you know, thank my husband who is running late. I can hear him in the background.

Alex D: [01:19:05] Thanks, Martin.

Alex G: [01:19:06] Awesome! Well, Alex was already a fan to begin with, so, you know.