Looking For Trouble With The Vocal Fries 2018, Jonathan Downie, Alexander Gansmeier, Alexander Drechsel Troublesome Terps http://www.troubleterps.com/ Hungry for more podcast? This month, the Terps are looking for trouble with the tasty Vocal Fries! Together with Vocal Fries hosts Carrie Gillon and Megan Figueroa, Jonathan and the Alexes discuss a wide variety of different topics from linguistic discrim Transcript [0:00] Music. Introductions [1:09] Hello this is episode 21 of the Troublesome Trucks the podcast about the things. But keep interpreters up at night after All-Star business panel from last time we have another first this time around, because what we doing today is called a crossover episode we have the pleasure of welcoming The Two Hosts of vocal fries or linguistic discrimination to be more specific. First of all let me say hello to our usual suspects from the Sunday Uplands of Scotland Itachi trouble making of Jonathan Downie how are you tonight. Oh my goodness that was such a convincing Scottish accent please go into Fair Oaks, I'm doing absolutely great Scotland test photo it's like that scene in The Chronicles of Narnia where is the weight, which is dad in the snow disappears 8 it's it's fantastic I have seen grock's I think I might have saw the sunlight, and it's Universal discretionary that warms the cockles of my heart and my chief Vice was officer Alexander gansmeier how are you, pretty good hey guys I actually got it was torn on the pop culture references but I decided not to do an Arnold Schwarzenegger Terminator, Style thank you for that German accent thing but yeah I'm fine I'm very happy to be here how are you guys. I think very well because I spend the weekend with you. [2:45] Cheap yet again we have to explain to those who are joining us for the first time that the three of us have never been in the same room together which leads me scientifically to be just the two hour exactly just one person. Which is a good temperature for today but I am available on welcome to. Linguistic Linguistics podcast on car carrying cat person from the officer friendly country of Canada, I do appreciate the alliteration hello, create and secondly an equally warm welcome to Megan Figueroa who is also linguistic currently as far as I know she's, linguistic podcast on join just joined us from Sunny Arizona. Hi it's a great to be here it's funny it's actually overcast today. Show me and tell me about pop culture being an okay thing I don't have any references, how do you say I just want to teach us to a Scottish word we have a special Scottish word for the weather being overcast. [4:17] Summer Scotland in the summer I can definitely agree with that we waiting for global warming to save us from the polar bears, I wish I was always confused why my ancestors moved from Scotland to Canada I was like what the weather is miserable and most of Canada and then I was like I went to Scotland and I was like oh, yes I'm driving home that's why they call it a place that was as desolate rainy and cold as Folk Art at school after exactly, I think I have to explain a little bit to do this crossover episode, because when did you guys start with States or is it okay if I say you guys, so when did you when did you start with the idea of Booker prize how did the whole thing happen if you could just tell us that in the. About The Vocal Fries Podcast [5:24] Well I've been encouraged by my husband / our producer to start a podcast, and I just couldn't think of anything interesting I was like I asked the linguist you can just send in your questions I don't know and then, when did I realized you know that Ted Talk a text talk that I gave him leave a sick discrimination is actually really important and maybe I should, and I try to broaden the number of people who hear this message that way was the formation is bad, it's the night I thought okay I'll podcast and then I was like I can't do by myself that's boring join me and she said yes so. Here we are. How many episodes have you have you done so far. [6:13] 15 But we have like a couple yet. At least that was the case for me you think well is it going to be enough material to keep me going for a while we're probably run out of cupcakes after episode 3 and then you know when you do it it's just yeah. So many ideas that people can't keep coming to us that we already have in her head that we haven't had a chance to get to yet so yeah there unlimited number episodes. [6:51] No I was just going to say that you guys definitely have the best podcast titled I think we really need to take it I love it. So those are our name the book of lies or Lays. Vocal fry his name I came up with most of the titles Megan comes up with she's a better punter than I am. I do enjoy it, cotton Bayou Sunjoy behaving myself although it depends. I was in a really really cheeky mood earlier today so there may be some sarcasm coming I'm not sure, who says that painting is bad behavior lots of people they hate it. There was a study recently about the ability to Pawn on the hoof is associated with very high linguistic intelligence, I also think the ability to do several times in a row is correlated with a number of black ice you get every month, my dad can do it like he is the punster it's amazing I have a big brother and my big brother my dad and I used to punch. Facts about 4 hours to the point where my mom realized this was not a face that was never going to end I did first edition we looking at titles I had a great pun title that you wouldn't let me with that cuz. [8:30] Podcast I thought I wanted was boys in the booth. Yeah she liked it. Aziz Ansari, how to say to the Alantic of course just a really wind up the people can't deal with bad spelling, if you ever want to play a fun game write an email to a translator, and deliberately do some spelling errors I'm dropping some works for calmness right back for like 3 pages of Sammy's. I actually once had a common mistake and one of my out of office message, and I literally have it in line email from a colleague of mine she would like I usually don't do this but I really can't help myself, that sounds miserable, Linguistic Discrimination [9:30] she was actually pretty good Segway because I smoke a little bit about the. So far as it took to give people an idea who, may have not listened to it one of your episodes. [9:53] Right when I first episode is about vocal fry which actually. A lot of English speakers use it probably everybody does to certain extent. [10:09] And it's not actually all that gender and use it to buy but we just don't notice any meant we also have talked about the most recent episode was about bask. [10:18] So the best people in their language. Yeah I didn't know any of that so it was a learning experience for me, yeah we didn't talk about Oxford commas I don't think. [10:41] Catholicism I sent it to see some of the topics that I actually. Some of them look like a pro like a proxy for class and education that really interests me at the moment is, I don't know if your waders if deaf people in their struggle to get their language is recognized as language is Alex just Alex Jackson just said an absolute genius episode on the story of a British Sign Language basic cable national language of Scotland, oh cool I didn't really fast anything when you get p. What it called children of deaf adults who have lived in both cultures and their understanding if you know why is it that one part of my. 1801 couch by 11 is validated in a load and accept feeds on the other part isn't despite the fact that for me they do you live alone save each other and it is fascinating that I. [11:36] I know you guys have the most of what we take has linguistic as shoes are actually, only important because we take because they're proxies for something else or for class or for gender and suddenly the debate becomes a lot cleaner. Yeah it's true and this appointment he trying to bring up is that really this is all about, are prejudices that underlie everything and we're not actually what do you attack the language you're actually attacking the person doing it, no we are but we're doing and it's unfair and actually makes you the, a hole yeah I made it didn't figure it's interesting because there are times where you know what I've had discussions if you were single I would expect such and such from a professional, it's like yes but maybe they're on sectionalism is showing up, slightly different ways right I'm or maybe so friends that's why I would expect from a professional in community and terrifying they can sort of language they use the way they describe the role of the way they deal with their clients is entirely different why would expect from Alex in the in the European institutions right, and yet I want to see pussy you know you didn't answer you should be like that swell. Maybe you should write yeah so I was like what time and place too so the context of us right so. Surprise you're interpreting one-on-one in a more casual setting then of course you're going to end up using more casual language but if you're interpreting at the EU. [13:11] And the people talking or probably not using casual language so you probably shouldn't be using casual I mean your translations either I mean to me it just seems like obvious where it where are you at you said context. Is is this more likely to be acceptable or less likely to be acceptable, this conversation always gets me hyped up I'm barely raise my voice so this is how it's going to go, I'm going to get out of vocal frying a little higher I'm sorry I totally agree about the time and place, and I know it's just everything we have to do to succeed in this world but I always go back to the whole thing of who is defining, how are like what is a professional setting who's defining what's professional why do we have to change the way we speak or the way that we sign and not starting, will you will you shouldn't but for example if you're a translator where is there are other people involved, for sure for sure and then not interpreting like in school settings right if I can't bring my the language of my home, to school without it being like okay well let's that's what you should get home but here's how we need you to speak to 60 kind of thing but it's true that when you're interpreting of course you have to. I'm assuming change that Chaser however however that the flower that is this casual or not. [14:44] Which was it hard for y'all anyway I like it can be a challenge going to be like I don't know. [14:52] I imagine that in Fresno setting sometimes there is like, funny things that happen that aren't meant to be funny or you know all these little things I can happen where you're like how am I so special right now, but I think I should get a typical example would be when you have to translate entrepreneur someone or something that you don't agree with maybe strongly disagree with. What's the name of the elephant in the room but his name is Nigel. That's why I can be a challenge and as a professional deal with it but sometimes I can be something that you have to talk to somebody about. And yeah it makes it more difficult. Yeah I was actually thinking about the elephant in the room and I don't want to say it I don't know if it was like we're going to talk about it later, I was referring to a blond haired elephant is very hard. Crap I just said or whatever, and also a lot of it is kind of nonsensical right like you know what he's what he's eating too but he doesn't actually come out and say it. There's a great word for this but I can't remember I've been trying to find it like not saying what you're actually trying to say, on the gaps that you're actually trying to translate what he said it's awesome. [16:28] We actually did a whole episode about that quiz the friend that Nicole Eagle regularly does interpretation that for for the news for TV so, it's a completely different challenge than what we usually do that's really important. That I'm the only American here aren't I. The leader of my country he sometimes switches and to Spanish. Are he says words from Spanish airplane. Or issue I don't know because there's a there's a whole thing and it doesn't accent discrimination to work right he wasn't in Puerto Rico and he was like. [17:20] Where is Stone Creek like he was doing his really exaggerated roast, Haitian of a Spanish accent what do you do with that, forget you translate the mosque speech. Good question is anybody ever had that side that happened. [17:47] Yeah I've had that sort of steak I don't want to really go into it but yeah where they where they just are mocking other people and I think, I think this is just me, I think if you want to do a good job getting the message across and I just you know doing it word by word thing you have to alter the mocking otherwise you basically want to meet over there trying to do so I think in that context, I would try to kind of ate whatever is going on and try to bring it into German as good as possible but, map I was explaining to some friends recently that. [18:18] I draw the line between FS speakers being accidentally offencive doing it deliberately and they're actually trying to. [18:31] Do whatever and if they know they're being defensive and you're doing it themselves then okay, wallow in it it's a really difficult choice because I have African speaker once through his way of speaking in his we have structure in his talk was fighting, you know for the USS perfect but I thought it was perfect and UT you came to go away with it because the video of a Wars and so they expected in front of just would have turned everyone else, and so as a service to have my tooth while he was I realized very quickly while he was trying to do and when I do with a french-speaking achieve that same anymore I think they would do it this way, what does a judgement code you can only see if you were right in hindsight. That's true well that's one question that's been on my mind for a few minutes now so. Because you said Megan okay I'm not quite sure that when when people put of criticize language wax and whatever language it's about the person and why do people have is there an answer to this question I don't know maybe you have. [19:37] Have you come closer to answering that question white way. Do people think it's okay is it because we used to do it you know in prison will be less politically correct time. [19:51] Yeah School help help. [20:04] So School teaches you that there is one correct way to speak your language obviously that is. [20:12] Completely false I mean even if we just look at the standard dialects are many of them in English there are many or a few at least in friendships that are that are but we pretend that there's only one but even I set aside I think. [20:27] I think people actually like to discriminate I mean restart likes Hot super certainly Tatsu like from Young, in many different ways persons different from us because of access person and then, and then what we now we can wear without becoming more aware that it's actually not okay to discriminate on the basis of certain things anymore, but I can beautiful things right so it's not okay to discriminate against immutable things things you can't change, I'm going to discriminate against you and I think you shouldn't be discriminated against just because you have that you can disagree you know we shouldn't be like. [21:17] How do you people out of her life just for a what like I'm not saying all political opinions but there are we have lots of grade graduations of political opinions and we should be allowed to have them social identities that are not immutable still should be protected. I think about this in this way because I've been working with a refugee program here, that's what it something to talk about like you can be a refugee because of something you can't change but also because if there's something you can could change but you shouldn't have to like it, but I thought why why is it still okay for many people I think it's because it's. Discrimination been okay for a long long time and it's only very recently that we're starting to realize hey maybe that's not it's not okay I mean some people always knew but like socially it's been acceptable for a long time. Language stays there I think, because of Megan's right that's the part where the staying power of it is probably coming from schools and other institutions, and again I think it's because it isn't it it isn't something that's like I can't change the color of my skin or. Where I'm from or whatever but the language seems to be this thing that people could change if they just wanted to write like it's okay if I just, how to speak English, it's okay that I'm doing this because they could better themselves in this way too easy right even though it's not always the case that they can write. [22:57] Stalkers. [23:07] Nate so lucky so let's let you take English so are we talked about Americans learning English in Boston versus Somewhere in Arizona for example and they discriminate against each other based on where they're from in the accident they have or do we talk about, okay okay anything, people people do mock the Boston accent I don't think anyone but mocks the Arizona accent it's too, Ricky, so I grew up about 15 miles from Glasgow and my mom is English my dad is Scottish and I was taught. Who myristyl the queen's English, then I go into school and an X industrial played in the west of Scotland then realized that Kingdom English is not going to last very long or I'm going to have a bruised face everyday, but the first question I go ask him pay me stores are you feeling it'll probably are you a Catholic or Protestant, I need the I think when we realize that language is an angry pirate group identity then we start understanding where all this discrimination comes from because it becomes a market over are you in my group or are you someone else are you with us are you with them. Especially in school you want to be part of the right group I guess so at least part of one group but it's interesting what you said to you CJ I think it's. [24:43] It makes me it was the other way around that you would speak with I'm from a. I grew up in a region that has a rather strong accent which has a bad reputation Nationwide shall we say and in school. We all spoke with an X and I think even some of the teachers and then usually what happened was that the high of the grade go up so that the longer you were in school. I think that the software Jackson became if I'm making sense and then eventually when you go to. College unigo University usually would just get rid of your accent because I will keep from other parts of the country and you would sort of agree on it kind of. Standard variety but it was always my impression but that doesn't seem to be the case necessarily, but I totally agree cuz I actually had the same experience in school I'm From Another Part in Germany where they also talked so much continuously we're actually getting subtitles on German National Television would really pisses me off, but I remember to see I won my best friend from high school he came in from a big. Like a big city in Germany and back to my high school and I was a country bumpkin back then so it that was like, way back out there in the countryside do you think you're better than I was like why do you talk like that. [26:04] It did not work to try to get it right she got mods continue to and then when I actually went to University into the big city people were mocking me while they were mocking me but I was more like a. [26:17] I was more like a zoo animal like an exotic person who look at him look like sand, for me it was the same thing like eventually when I decided that I want to become an interpreter I would like I can. Talk continue talking like this with people be like oh that's so cute I like all where you from that adorable I have to get rid of it but I realized, and this is getting to the point that you were mad at you making Jonathan about are you with us or are you with them it depends on the client that I'm talking to but you can use as accents to like and this is going to sound horrible but I'm going to say it anyway cuz I hope that everyone was going to get this those what I mean, but you can emotionally manipulate. [27:03] People by using the axons and you can kind of like get into the good graces of a claymore quickie when you use the same accent I thought you don't do your weekend. It's not even just about the manipulation thing but it's just kinda like I see where you are and I'm and I'm and I'm there with you kind of kind of like we're in this together sting. I mean I went to get the the official linguistic is it okay when people start using the accent to gain, Social Capital I'll give you an example I turned up to Joe Budden says I have my favorite breeds make up an atom brand has quiet, refined accent she would kill me for saying that I like girl from the west and we are doing a job for the Scottish government on deep sea fishing policy you know the side effects of the guy who was running the event came up this way, your boss causation, idylis is a Halen's most professional interpreters wouldn't have freaked out at least I hope you would never eat that are bright. Positionals in my booth maitski Sofia Wylie. Posh Scottish accent in my case I feel like. Waste of Scotland accent possession of that I can actually drunky the social capital was actually glad that we were there and glad we concerned. [28:33] Language in part of me like where we know if if someone's going to if we if I danced and accents are going to be so costly tied together. Why not let the people have that I can actually use that for social capitalistic possibly can I think you can use it for Social Capital survival skills. Timberlake just like you were saying with with kids and in school and they know that they want to fit in so they'll start looking like their peers right will the same thing with. With this I think it's the Carrie said it's your accent it gets a little weirder if it's you who trying to put on an accent that's not yours, suffer the more standard one like. Try right because everyone know everyone kind of adopts that at some point yeah there is but like if you're trying to adopt some other regions accent it can get a little trickier although that's what many actors do. But it would not be cool if I tried to put on. African American English, yeah but you know it. I'm all African Americans have African American English or African American, so I don't have it but yeah it happens all the time that people that don't have it natively will use it. [30:07] If you don't mind me asking did you grow up with another ring look at another language than English as a as a child family background. Spanish language, she was worried about in group out group so he was in Arizona. [30:32] Whips for speaking Spanish in school so he did not wants to teach me Spanish. Here to not want me to have any of that so I actually didn't learn Spanish I mean I I was around it all the time so. [30:53] You know I I know I know a little bit of it from just being around it but. Yeah I wasn't taught it because it because of this whole discrimination against again Spanish which is actually a proxy for ethnic discrimination against. People that are of Mexican descent in Arizona, and other regions too but mostly Mexico so like if they could be like, the same thing as a running joke amongst Scottish people that you know if someone comes up and say is I love you in English accent Scottish people go. [31:50] I love people say I love your British or English accent time in Scotland side of the waste everyone will say it's great to be across the region, and if I'm in the west of Scotland they can put in point during to the Titan wheel at 10:30 to the part where I grew up in a it's funny because you don't realize how specific an accent can be, until you're an idiot and I'm here to save in Germany that people go whatever and it's just because the group thing is so granular and so detailed, I mean I had imagined in Mexico people go or you're from there you're from there, brush Strokes what actually accent says from Waterbury to make you possibly imagine, they're they're real like you're talking about like in Mexico City like since my dad grew up on the side of the line of sight of the Border in Arizona is Spanish is not good enough you say words, that only Mexican Americans would say we wouldn't say that here, set time to 9. Porter identity it's very very difficult and I'm sure it happens all over the world in different ways. Even if it's not like an actual, other words not real social contract. [33:27] What about you, Multilingualism, Accents And Pandering [33:35] cost is famously bilingual. Country so what's the tldr of that to you I guess you rolling your childhood when you grow up. [33:53] So I'm from British Columbia and that's probably the least French area of Canada or at least, one of the least French areas so yeah I grew up completely might like that my. Parents were very much wishing my mother a very Pro French they really wanted us to be bilingual and you know proper citizens, Canada Island in this really small town called Prince Rupert which is really close to the Alaska Panhandle and, that's it that time when I lived in didn't have French immersion until I was too old so my brother and sister both got to be put in French immersion so they were a functionally bilingual. Just upsets me to this very day only one of them ended up being a linguist, I'm so yeah it's interesting place in Canada kind of depends on where you are what region you're in but there's a lot of antipathy towards French in many areas. [35:01] Certainly in British Columbia I saw a lot of it English only the better blah, it's it's a pretty upsetting when you actually realize how important language is that how all I would just are cool and interesting and can help open doors. [35:20] So talking to me because I assumed America had like. [35:23] Monopoly on being a-holes everybody has this problem every time you. Shows up differently as well and has lived here for about 10 years now and I find it such a shame that they don't make more use of. [35:47] It's bilinguality or training trilingualism. But they have in school and then it's just so frustrating especially if you have a somewhat linguistic or language today Spectrum so I can relate to. [36:01] Are y'all trilingual that's a good question! Question, I speak four languages English French cause viginal nonsense I'm very slowly out in German, German is that a proper linguistic terms. Whatever I think they'll always sit of squirm because success so self-aware about what it's worth. Takes that it's always a question of definition of what it means to know what language speak language is quoted as you know as well because I'm going to stick around so I don't know if I would. [36:47] Call myself even bilingual trilingual maybe in the sense that I know. Several languages kind of well compared to. Native speakers I think. I mean I guess what kind of fumbling around with English so that's kind of French thing and I and. [37:19] I'm just going to act like I just put this out there if we don't have to discuss it but I think a lot of it has to do with colonialism particularly when it comes to English and French, cuz I'm actually experiences here in in Germany with a bunch of French interpreter when they have to interpret a few delegates from Africa and I, sure that you know their accents is going to be difficult it is going to be. [37:39] Different you know just like for English when you get some guys from Pakistan or India from China you know they only have an accent that makes it of course very challenging but they made it. [37:49] Into I don't know if that's what they intended. It kind of felt like that African accent would like less than you not like their faces of less than ours and I'm like what's the safest Canadian by the way. Yeah I think of that when you when you said that carry yeah I feel like that for English in English, native language and then people will be like he speaks like we are Indian things don't like that says native tongue like what are you talking about it's the way he speaks. [38:25] Yeah there's so much discrimination accent discrimination again once again especially Foreign Accents crimination and whenever episodes that I was coming up it's actually going to be about for an accent, discrimination apparently the at least an English accent that is the most. Accents that are the most discriminated-against are Asian accents so like Indian or Chinese or whatever and it's totally true I saw it, I thought of Canada I see it here, Chinese Professor is or are. Culligan UK who once did his master's thesis I actually Metropolitan before this episode but I completely forgot and I'm just now thinking of it so it's kind of. He said his master's thesis on acts and then he actually has an evaluation done I forgot if it was with actual clients or the other students about it just a compression of. [39:30] Other languages English accent and you know what kind of the usual like French is very attractive and makes everything sound very sensual Italian accent makes everything sound very melodic and then they actually said they actually rang. [39:42] The German accent in the English language has the most trustworthy so kind of like that this person has a German accent that makes him very trustworthy and she kind of broke that down into. The images of but he kind of broke it down and in his pieces of remember correctly that the. The listeners equated the Accents in English with the image of the country has the highest. Yeah I thought it was really interesting I mean I. Don't want to try it long and hard to not have a German accent too much so but it shows once again. Social status whatever I want you to throw this phone back to, actually clean linguist and does a very common thing that interests of the clients that is please do your speech in your native language. Call on the one hand. settings Lake linguistic discrimination because I have met people who at least on the face of it and at least in terms of you know language scale was honestly would traditionally beat a state that able to do the speech in their native language, buy Santikos Enterprise inherently know that rhyme with is not just words languages, the impression that you're creating we would rather even say to people who say about what you like to do in English no problem if you do it in your native language in there an interpreter that interpret. You probably come across better than I actually. [41:18] I'm not going to tell it just now cuz I want you to get your view and I have at least one study for my own career where I've seen companies seal withdrawal, because their representatives came over from Italian, choose to speak in no native English when the next companies Italian represent the spoken Italian where the kids and everyone loves them. [41:41] And so it's kind of knowing. Linguistic we speaking it is there an 11 sickness wax in discrimination thing to say well knowing that that exists maybe sometimes you should. [41:54] Almost not quite given to but sometimes except but that's part of the social. And scenario and look at Wizards images using your native language raghavan doing what we would call no need to speak her accent. Yeah so I think if you're in the business world you know that there's all this discrimination maybe you should, think about that I consider that and use use an interpreter, to help you get your message across because otherwise you'll be judged I don't think it's fair but lots of things in life aren't fair and sometimes especially business you just have to like. Work with reality and a place for interpreters I mean, advantage of that and I think it also goes back to hold trustworthiness thing I bet you people. [42:49] I mean whatever it is in our brain that's like okay I trust this person more because they're not quote-unquote stumbling over their speech or or having all these pauses because you might have those if you're trying to speak your native language. So I could say I could see why that sales dropping thing actually happened just, that you're saying is your stress were there you're not all on your messages and also there could be a feeling of pandering, like oh you're just speaking my language to make me feel better I don't know so much about English that might not exist as much an English but I certainly in other languages I get this impression that if you don't speak perfectly, people are like all you're just pandering, it's like a Hispanic during here where people to the Latinos, America, and it's like also assuming that they only speak English or whatever. Also in case of like right now that the. The dreamers so that the people who basically grew up in the United States but were brought here when they were children illegally, but there's this idea that they're all Latino and some of them are from other countries if you're speaking in Spanish to the dreamers. [44:23] You're making an assumption that's completely unfair, I think it's one of these things where I'm never sure I've been asked a couple times guys have you had this for clients who said you know should I try a bit of, French and German and I'm never sure what the right answer is because on the one hand and let you know. Sort of glad's at when someone starts a meeting in Scotland with Galaxy Nike Free. My usual Brittany States Galax it's fine and I think we're getting even though I don't speak out like it's nice to hear but I think you know it's nice sometimes with British people, make an attempt at something that isn't English and even just see bonjour and just so you know how you do I say welcome to start on them French nothing, but you know it's making an effort and, people ask is going to be okay and I'm never sure cuz I've heard so much from linguistic cultural and linguistic appropriation, I'm never sure where that line is a few words in the language, it's a nice gesture it's when you're doing it, too much it's cuz I don't know if you guys saw this but the Prime Minister Canada Trudeau went to India and then were nothing but Indian clothes the whole time which was weird. [45:55] Done before but, it was the entire time and there were multiple different outfits and it was, I'm just going to make excuses I think he's cool, cool and there's certain things about him that are less well on this was, for one or two events it would have been nice a nice gesture but wearing it all the time because Pandora so I think there is a line between. [46:25] Showing that you care and being like so awesome I am, I have another topic that I really wanted to talk about but, Non-Binary Pronouns [46:36] I don't know if it's maybe too much but you had an episode of about pronouns which I have found extremely interesting because that's a topic I've been thinking about a lot in that we've been discussing. As well none of the podcast yet but you know which is just I don't know what the balance. Language or non-binary, see that's that's the whole thing I am really interested in the topic but I sometimes feel like it's a bit of a Minefield to get into because what I would have fun tonight about your episode was that the person that you had on I think she was she was quiet, open. [47:20] Baby sorry they got me they were quite a bit about it and say well you know you make a mistake and then you can say okay sorry about that and then you fix it and I knew you keep going and I think that's that's just a very nice approach to. To the hall topic because it's so difficult for people to you know just make that mental switch. Right yeah like I do think it can be a little tricky so I mean I use singular they but in the past it was always for like even if I knew the person's gender it was more like the gender is not important. But I never had used it for actual person like that was their gender, until Kirby. Yeah I don't I don't know what I mean I know some other people who call themselves non-binary but I've never referred to them like. Enough for that to come up so yeah it is a bit of a shift but. But I think an English it's actually quite it's it's not as hard as it is it in another language. [48:31] Or German trust me. [48:43] So I don't think that's a big issue but in other languages I can really imagine that creates. [48:48] Shoot problems I know that man in Germany a colleague of mine and I we, usually try to kind of sort of gender even you know Alex in the bar can that we organize I will try to gender. Do the emails and try to be inclusive and not just cuz it Germany usually have the generic masculine. Version that you have to talk about men and women usually this is so late and then we said well that's actually kind of. [49:18] Well impractical it away, feminine term for everyone I love them especially for interpreting where like 75% of the people working in the professional women anyway so it just felt like a bit more sense, but has it ever come up in interpreting or with colleagues was ever an issue when you were working in the booth. And not knowing you know what to call a person know how to refresh the fussing, French has wonderful pool and home where in Queens English you would use the word one, I can just I can just be sitting in I mean I actually it's not something that ever, , for me. And to be honest I may end up just going with people's names if I possibly can. [50:24] Whatever their views out on the back rent. There has to be an appreciation that language is always in flux, and I think this is again cuz their language discrimination Point as I think most especially most multilingual was imagine language as a start again today, I'm surprised when they get words to change meaning, I still know people of a certain age you know desperately trying to reclaim the word gait mean happy, you know what if you want to and not so group and if you're so group wants that word to mean that will detect that you know air, date weedian in the UK is actually a descriptive text D A L I use you to do that, I think it has to be realization that I actually you know even something like the words. Translation or interpreting they mean different things in different subgroups, Carrie and I talked a song from Ghana and linguist and Ghana men's the spokesperson for the king write to Chief, so even linguist mean something different. Traditional linguist are very touchy about translation translated in Texas being called linguists because most of us if he asks what Fanatics are we think it's some weird thing that you do when your, when you're on your mobile phone morphology is the study of. [51:59] Plastic sheeting children's characters, but when we realized that language is influx in the language is socially determined that the meeting is is is not defined it's actually negotiating when we realize that stuff for tonight people who speak more than one language begin to get quite quickly as we just kind of, Language Change [52:23] yeah that's what it does, yeah and there's nothing you can do to stop it but it's so frustrating I had to have the same arguments over and over and over again about say the word literally which has meant, show large amount or like in Tellico intensifier for hundreds of years, trying to force literally the only mean in a literal sense, God is like hundreds of years too late so stop it. Do you have different lights do you kind of see what they mean if they mean it like literally like. Fire versus actually playing, earthquake Leroy's. Even if you can you know communicated War by where you supposed to do with inflection or something along those lines you do get it across butts. [53:37] I just want to get back to the dinner language thing because I actually listen to another podcast the day and it was the hang on just let me look this up real quick to eat NPR Lost in Translation one on, the power of language to shape how we view the world and there was a Russian linguist on there if we was talking about her obviously I forgot her name. Naturally we could and she was talking about her studies in the US cuz she came over as a young child, and she actually invented a fake language where they just assigned genders to certain words and said okay this is going to be this and it's going to be that and then they ask people to describe the noun that depending on whether it was a man or a woman, people contributed these sorts of traits to these made up words but it was really interesting because first of the day they did it with monolingual people who grew up. With a gendered language where the words were the opposite, gender animated for people Frank Zappa like with English where it's just the chair and the couch and the table in marriage. It was really interesting I forgot what her point was about people who already speak a gender language like Spanish Italian or French, for them it was much easier to understand but I think English people if I remember correctly there were quite starting with the concept of like, female chair or like a male bridesmaid, slowly getting it all makes sense because you have those associations I think if I remember correctly if you say look which is you know masculine Bridge. [55:15] It would take a strong and strong and stable at Juarez when you say to keep looking which is feminine you would think of an oven. Architectural a beautiful greater stuff like that, something on those laying down, yeah it's wrong on so many levels right, the conclusion after the birth of her first child, so women are tougher than any meal Marine that you could ever come across as you do Marines to sleep deprivation training for about a week at Titan, so the woman's name is Lee Roberto did ski I think that's how you pronounce it, I find it fascinating human language to research on associations they will often use invented languages in this late you know that there's a joke and speculative comedian about the only good come out to califia judgment is my grammatical. And I think this is the guy I'm a field researcher so I am a little bit skeptical of. [56:29] Lab research in general and I thank lab research frames things which, yeah baby it's just a result of it being in the mob by I do wonder if you are seeing a gay German people mowing cool Jeremy's to draw a bridge and talk about veggies and French people to do the same what did I give you that much of a difference cuz I think you need to save your whorf hypothesis which on the Lions days to World languages are very very, skeptical stroke Seneca science, I totally 100% agree. I haven't seen this particular research but I am already skeptical of it. It's a problematic it's not, and maybe I'm wrong but I just I bet it's a bizarre way of looking at the world any other sapir-whorf hypothesis is either. Obviously true in the sense that it has a very, like you do have the way that you use does have some effect on the way that you think I mean I think that happening really true or else is completely determined at 2 which is, to me completely improbable then you can never learn a new Concepts like you're trapped in the language already have I just. Be so terrible. Work for it one of the biggest problems for sapir-whorf my and translation 3D light show was a guy Cody in Mason today their first 6 weeks on things that people think about translation and interpreting are absolutely wrong. [58:09] And why did wrong and it was really good because it means that you can have both our conversations with people and one of the things he said was reception to bilingual ISM suggestive sapir-whorf is correct, Sapir-Whorf And Stereotypes [58:20] bilinguals have two brains. From Allegheny comes back to language discrimination what we think about language wheel. I think Moana language people station even some bilinguals one savior Wharf to be true because it then give some Foundation to the fact that if you speak with a German accent, we somehow you think you more cold calculating, the Germans I've met having some of the friendliest people I've ever met, I was just going to agree with you because I actually have met you know something here in Germany that have friends are Italian in their languages, you know when they're late then I call I can't help it my language of Italian I just can't help you like and I'm like oh my God like what are you doing. [59:25] It just snuck with one of the biggest sharks that people have is when I. I hear my accent over I still say I don't have an exam as everyone else who speaks funny alcohol. And when I explained that I'm Scottish antique, like I'm going to Translate translation conferences with people who know about coaching stuff and I say yeah I'm a teacher and I had one translate to say to me, do you exist does not compute. Even in people in the heads of people who don't know where Tomatoes FDT. I read somewhere that everyone is a little bit racist there just no weight of it yet, oh yeah I'm massively offencive and I did one of the tasks and I actually find that I was whatever the opposite of that was and I I I slightly late according to one of the test, slightly describe it slightly anti-white discriminate with a really bizarre but they, you know all those that offends me I can understand where it comes from, and actually some of the people who give you the worst stereotypes are interpreters because one of my colleagues said that's because some stereotypes have some truth in them, taking his kid awake. [1:00:44] What do you do with it yeah and then maybe a type of situation you know. [1:00:56] But you still have to be open to going to be proven wrong hopefully help you I think. [1:01:05] We walk into the room you're like okay just a bunch of Americans then maybe you know how you're supposed to talk to them as you walk into the room, widely I mean like don't say how do you do to a bunch of Americans that sounds so bizarre that's what I said. Like I said there's a stereotype of Americans talk to each other and I think you know that's mostly, dish regionally true or, by the same token I wonder if people start feeling like they have to live up to stereotype so as an interpreter, what are the stable types of me have the American speakers speak in a certain way you don't brush spoken very self-confident, quite bank on the under body language and the weird thing is is that if you get like a couple speakers from the same area you sometimes can see people going well maybe that's how I'm supposed to speak, and I like The Stereotype become a cultural determiner, I'm sorry I was recently be there in an hour to go by anytime minutes after saying you know I'm going to tell you that I can speak quite well at my hands are tied behind my back, thank you, Chad but there's something about again it's baby doesn't we see the Discrimination we don't like it we don't like the stereotypes foster parents in front of our sites like a stereo typical American and white American. [1:02:39] We may try and fit in with that subconsciously because that's what we've seen as the archetype oxygen, survival skills. But yeah this is stereotype of American all I'm like I have it too but when I think of it I think of it man always it's always okay so. Yeah yep. Monster ton of men in America that are overly confident like stick their chest out when I speak and talk really loud way over here, and everywhere stereotype, Wright's Total Rewards that kind of behavior so I do think it is more common in the United States and other countries that are have different values, cousin Canada that's not as it is it's not as prominent it's not as well upon to be too confident, who is can't wait to stay detective Canadiens of the VC story after I've sold everything, your present to you and you apologize but you also have I mean. [1:04:18] Scottish and British. Coexist in weird ways that won't winter but the thing is if you don't need your key and you hold the door open for someone and then you realize that they are slightly too far but you have to stand waiting Christian, what the other one is who goes first in a queue, you know you first I don't know you don't know really you I'm sure we've actually started Wars because over who would need to go first in the queue and it and it gets really bad because everything is with the whole, Key Food. [1:04:51] Switching it rethinking gender roles and whatever if is a man in the UK you open the door for the women you're like, I going to be fined for slots I'm not entirely sure yet but you know you should be doing that for everyone, yeah I get it is this I don't have it. Dicing language exists as part of social context has mites in your supervisor 19 fhd Supervisor was always and you know. There's no such thing as decontextualized language again that's why I'm so skeptical of a lot of lab work on Linguistics in this because meaning doesn't exist unless as a text. [1:05:34] I mean okay so let's I'm going to lab work that. At least for first language acquisition I think it's actually been very well. The Wug Test [1:05:49] experiment of like the walkie talkies, that was really well done and you can do it to any child and they will give you the exact same results so I think my work can be good for all the listeners cuz I like to know what's the weather. So you have a picture of a creature I don't even know how to describe her like it's kind of bird like a big fat bird, yeah. [1:06:18] Okay. You don't like a geometric shape that looks like a bird this is a wug now there are two there are two. [1:06:36] Mugs and jugs, every single time wow wow so that work can be good, absolutely some some researchers are garbage, cuz there isn't garbage human beings everywhere. I'm in love with you people, impressed by the words test, what's so perfect. Enjoy with your kids if you have little tiny ones or any kids around not any better learning English pattern of, plural plural. [1:07:39] This is a tax or whatever we how do you do the present tense we are daxing yesterday we. [1:07:58] I am slightly Cuts close while I work but I mean is if you would be Saturday if we see everything even labs are social situations I'm happy with lab people so you know we set out the situation was it constructed and I'm like yeah okay, I think it's I'm coming for the bike rentals I was lab work in interesting has assumed that will interpreters are doing is taking, Julie if you like lexical semantics information and language am coming into lexical semantics information language be and there's no reference to intentions there's no reference to purpose, and there's no reference to you know that there's this entire setting a rodent language in language be, I think we made by the beginning is the language is a proxy for a thousand other things and Anna, you know my my muscle which is becoming a bit of Ecclesia is when I started that is in town that ice out and texting was language skills with people attached I'm not convinced it's just people skills with language. And through those eyes I'm beginning to see the Isley even some of the, things that we look at as terminological decisions are actually Social Distortion set classic one we were I was in texting with a group of interest on a truck back today and my two German colleagues had spent, Halo memorizing the German for a dumper truck with which be in German. [1:09:29] Has a few syllables in it. What an accurate was after 4 days of traveling through mud after these trucks and in horrendous conditions at the end of the German delegates. [1:09:47] As soon as not having electrical thing that's a social thing. [1:09:54] Probably good place good place. I was going to say. Code Switching [1:10:09] If this is actually a good Segway into code-switching cuz I don't think what Jonathan was describing was necessarily coat switching that was just. We are still seeing for that particular delegates that he has ADHD I don't think I know enough about it actually, speak intelligently on it. [1:10:40] I think this is Megan. [1:10:50] So what John was talking about was switching in switching one word right. Yeah cause switching can be at the dialect. Dialect language level so you can switch between say Spanish in English, you because switching if you're is interlocutor. Also speak Spanish in English in Spanish in English, so people that can cause which are very good they have such great metalinguistic abilities and we know that about bilingual, metalinguistic skills you know what your what your your partner and speech or and spying on need and are doing so, Spanish to English, so you say you have African-American English and you also just have a regular, I don't know if you can also speak Southern English without like this Christmas, can you tell me where someone might want to use both of those well there's so much they're more similar than other, standard. [1:12:29] Yeah so there might be a scenario where they would do that, so yeah I could be but when you're throwing in like one word or when he was saying, but we don't speak in the professional interpreting situation like it would speak to her friends or so that's sort of a coat switching to like you're different. Skylander registers which usually means like you're using two languages in the same sentence sentence rather than switching, from one situation to another situation although some people use it that way so like, I think the the podcast code switch that's really how they're using at. So are jargon we mean it usually within a sentence or maybe like what from one side to another but you're still speaking to the same person, does a pizza I recently read for linguist list called speak English or what and it was looking at interpreting in small claims court in New York City was saying that one of the biggest interesting challenges in procedural challenges there was at the predominant way of using language was, monolingualism for the new native english-speakers they wear for the predominantly. [1:13:55] Nice as nutritional interpreting SX has no room for that traditional core setups have no room for that the you know the Arbitration Association with see well if you know the English for best why do you need an interpreter, all the interpreters with then do a rendition with the term Style in English that needs of an English and it's, doesn't interpret code switching as a bit of a nightmare for me because you have to make medical decisions and that she know if they've said that in English should I then drop it, in French in my version should I what do I do with the ex because especially being that it's made me realize he had the phrase quote switching is always motivated. When you realize it's motivated you then have to thank Anna. Professional public speakers wow Evans motivated what are they doing with this and I can have Gracie and tell them what are they doing with this work and sometimes. Sometimes I think that was just that that's the word they remember first thing, like I don't want to see at carries right it's an access thing it's not like a lack of knowledge thing cuz I hate when would we, a lot of people will talk about switching Alex because they don't have that or they don't have that information in that language and it might be true sometimes, but I don't want that to be like The overriding Narrative of why I like to ask this thing much more switching as a. [1:15:30] What is it like deficiency usually I think you could be a good sometimes B deficiency like you know word for smartphone maybe you just. That's the only one you know it's English one sometimes it's just the English word came to my mind first and sometimes it is motivated like I want to make a. So that makes it even more complicated cuz. Or maybe always like if you have a partner that you're speaking with that does have the other languages well maybe you always say a certain phrase in English because it's just easier English than in your native language. And I think for interpreters it can sometimes be a lifesaver if you if you don't have the right, direct translation of the right term in you're talking my language but you saw you have to keep moving you know you'll just throw it in the South language I'm done with it. Willow salon so we use in our house I have my wife is a fluent German speaker and I have, and sometimes I will ask her something and was basically pigeon German when I don't want our children to understand why I'm asking, apparently some things I can think about the correct another claim she said she has to think really hard to work at with I've made the mistake but eight Eights, it is this idea if you know we've all come across the access promo come across ashes and it is working at what is it doing here, I also do I know Grace is be massively got the size places I think he does a lot going for the way that he talks about any of any type of us has big headed to do things with words there's something about. [1:17:07] What he was trying to get us to understand I think his linguistic since answers fundamentally that's what we're doing and that's where the people that were working with and studying with all doing all the time, dictionary they're making meaning. So important on the Sun. That's interesting. That book called it code switching so you do think that what they were doing was switching it wasn't like it wasn't actually it in this case efficiency is she, she was very keen to know. Basically not only give the deficiency issue as much grain does the data suggested that was a deficiency, that's good and so his argument was the idea of the Year from what he could tell from the ordinary everyday life you will living in, code switching and code mixing so his argument was infested what they're doing everyday why would Court be any different. Any sister out there are times when the English term for whatever the you know if it was the best be about how using the English term rental agreement may be more accessible than the Spanish or the Turkish Forever on the piece of paper beside, exactly, but on the other hand, maybe a case where they're just doing that because of disagreeing with the way the entire first airplane their case and so do code next to clarify no it's not. Right to Any.do Court you specifically trained to court. [1:18:40] Cuz I'm very interested in how court interpretation happens because it's so important especially with all the immigration issues that we have in the United States there are people that are from Guatemala to speak indigenous languages that we don't have anyone, really big issue and I wonder if it's ever happened to y'all where you supposed to interpret but. Someone uses a language that you don't know because I never happened like maybe your interpreting and then another one. Yeah that happens to be we can put you in touch with Judy Jenner who was our last episode when she does a lot of Court interpreting in Las Vegas for English and Spanish so you know what, and she is amazing. And that is funny because and this is another thing that I have read she wrote Because at Winchester, and when I met him in person it was really strange because have you ever fill the someone's voice in their writing signed a different to the voice when they were speaking. [1:19:39] Oh yeah and it's in my internal voice of what the Janet when signed it like signed what like, twiddy actually signed do I have to have a script somewhere I was going to say cuz you know why I would follow seeing if I should languages, Québec [1:20:00] what is a, comes into that a little bit was core trying to say you know you didn't this time to speak this language I'm fascinated by the key back, cakes 1141 reason because when I was living in France and I first held a keypad call person speaking on TV I literally asked the guy I was staying with why is American speak French, giving well for the first time I didn't understand a single word and I tecnicas you French at that point. [1:20:36] It is the strangest thing because on the one hand I can understand why if you don't mind or ties group why, fixing language policy would be really important because, I mean that there are still tensions in a metropolitan France over we don't want to lose their distinctiveness as the French speaking people in so they have the academy song says and they say things and everyone, they will know no one's ever going to say that, bah is testing of all Misty if you like the colonial language policy only makes real political sense if you're the minority group. [1:21:22] Because then there is Turf the is realistically on the freeway I mean if if if a UK English Academy came out it would be hilarious because the main fit to Yuki English is UK English speakers, yeah it definitely has to do with power so if you have all the power you don't need to create a bunch of things to save your language, quite like the French versions. Okay maybe because that would be I would love to be an academy, I shouldn't say this but those are very strong laws about what you're allowed to put on your menus or on your signage and come back so for example, there's a pet shop in Naperville apologize, there's an episode with literally called castigate, and there's making you dinner so there's an agency other as a french-language watchdog agency I don't know what it's called but there's a parrot in this place in the pet shop, parrot and it refused to speak French. [1:22:57] So that was the first one and then the second was practically where in Italian restaurant use the word pasta instead of translating it into French and I don't even know what the word for pasta in French. They're also trying to like stop people from say bushel high in, Montreal and it's really the only truly bilingual city in Canada only French, swearing in quebecois well, we did a bunch married and we included some stuff on French the chemical French because it's so fun, not to be Utah Sweden. Even part of Judaism first because I think. I'm aware sometimes and I was telling the guys on the previous episode there was a, very recent job where we had an Irish female Irish trade unionist who was speaking and really, speak English and it was a really funny thing because French trade unionist as a rule 10 2. [1:24:31] Act and talk like many philosophers weird as British trade unionist as a very gentle stereotype tend to pray themselves on being guys are still in the shop floor. I'm so already when you have these two groups in a room you have a coach will definite with with a shield electrical ecosystem and this Irish speak of God and spoke really Street. [1:24:57] Quick Street English, the way I said the British government if there was such a test testing and my business that's why I thought was a brilliant, translation choice for a French delegate came up that I don't say that word here we say. [1:25:18] Which is like in 03 Shades West, disgusting especially the way that she said that and it's one of these things is we are always operate the In Between Worlds and, I sometimes forget how important the special French is for French speakers. Even though she might take them at every Academy there still a pray that, 12 / lovely French does not necessarily deal the same for, for native English speakers and it's reminding myself sometimes too actually the formulation needed as important as the content of what said even X. Means thinking of a Vesper reformulate into their world. [1:26:06] By the way I found out what the name of the Watchdog is a long process. Okay. [1:26:22] Qlf, anhedonia, that's their job where they practice, but when you first said that I thought you said pirate, and I was delivered in a completely different direction people walking into the office after listen to the podcast being like are you proud of yourself are you had it recently allowed grilled cheese softball and drag queen to be successful French words in Quebec, really really well there you go in Paris. With a cigarette in, stereotypes and where I think we should probably start wrapping it up cuz everything from French and, Wrapping Up [1:27:35] back at the gender and I think it's a good time I was wondering if you guys wanted to maybe just, each of you save one, it'll take away that you had it could be committed could be fine could be nothing but like one little thing cuz I thought this was a really interesting episode that was. [1:27:54] All over the place in the best way possible exec sniffing so much, if I can just go if I can just go first I had a great time so this was a really great discussion that. Looks like I was a discussion that you would have an end up I guess so they're really seems to be. Whole scene of language related podcast Diamond Samsung been around for a long time like the weather words for example. Which has been around for a long time and it's just a great to see that there are so many podcasts. You're looking at language from so many different angles and then sometimes it's just so great to see when we can come together like you did this crossover episode with the. Two ladies from Ling Suzy Eisen with question and Lauren which is also Fantastic Four cast appear in. Linguistic I guess I'm used to check it out so that will be mine, I forgot and I knew once I forgot how important you all are interpreters and I think about in America the Civil Rights Act of 1965 and how it made it so that. [1:29:16] Wait what you have a right to an interpreter if you don't speak English it's really important that the tax rate I don't know, I think it right Megan sing something so definitively when so much, everybody would have told me this yeah you just have to own it, shout out to my ex, and it really means a lot to me that's why I almost got kind of sad, like like like like compassionate no but it's really important work I know y'all are in America doing it but people like you in America, thing you're doing, thank you I appreciate it, terpander a note to carry you were going to say. [1:30:39] Oh yeah that reminds me I meant to say earlier in the conversation but I had to look up with turp mint, oh sorry about that yeah dragon that makes total sense once you know but yeah. I was just trouble from interpreters was a mouthful so. Yeah I don't just want to work so it's just yeah something we don't know until later Asian, yeah when they were going to release an album of the three of us trying to sing I didn't know that, Christmas takes year away from the area where I took two things away from it because I can never, one thing I took away from is languages weird. Language is probably weird because people we are in the second thing I took away from the 80s. [1:31:46] Language is far more than words, I meant it to realize that every day what we're doing is we are creating and recreating language every single day. Mmm we realize that that's what's going on every single day it's actually exciting and what is in the same level I'm just glad to see so many other so many other people looking at language in going, Mr strange scientific discoveries don't start with which I've discovered, you know what if you don't let your language in you're probably not looking all that. Sometimes you have to look at it in the lab I'm just saying hello nice, linguistic Club install interesting languages happen your sunny beaches I'm so all my fieldwork well not all of it I did feel most of my field work in like either Northern North Vancouver which is just across the water from Vancouver, yeah I know fairly counted to take the city bus or I was in the Arctic, but I went the wrong direction I should have learned in Spanish and gone down to Mexico next time I did I'd like to work in the south of England on the bone in Germany. [1:33:16] German still think I'm really weird I love Bud everyday. I'm sorry to all my colleagues in but it's a beautiful today and I love all of you xvideo take away, because you like to take me Frankfurt. [1:33:48] For everyone who knows me knows that I'm not where everyone who knows me knows that I'm not a very theoretical person I'm not really into like research or stuff like that. Masters I think my masters rude me for life cuz I was the worst experience I've ever had writing this, that's a whole other episode right there talking to you I know right my PTSD, aspects of linguistics, Jonathan is probably likes jumping up and down mission accomplished so that's out of the question, so I when I took away from this is that I don't know if I already knew this there's so many things that we can talk about with language, with linguistic discrimination with how we think about the meaning of a sentence of how to. Translate that into it another language and. And how that's not ever going to be exactly 100% because even though I am a very formal English so I am like all about the mass still recognize. That obviously there's much more going on when we use language and I just I love it all I am such a language nurse so thank you for having us on, thank you for having us. [1:35:23] This is a really cool thing because. Suicide in stereoscopic images of a slightly different anytime they would do that, it sounds great. [1:35:43] Music. [1:36:21] What you call a tautology.